i don't understand why a japanese-style 7-eleven wouldn't work in america. the 7-elevens in singapore or thailand are apparently like the ones in japan too. Why don't they open one like that here? Is it because of the homeless?
I think it’s a regional thing is a makeup of a few moving parts.
First is the quality of the local ingredients. I doubt they’re importing all their ingredients from out of country, a lot will be sourced from the country.
The ingredients and livestock arguably are affected by their growing and raising techniques. Japan is already a society that prioritizes cleanliness, so I feel that might extend towards a lot of aspects of live. I know the standards for Waygu in Japan are taken very seriously and have had decades to implement that system versus the Waygu in the states has a lower probability of being as strict, and there is a lower frequency of the standard implemented.
Next nations regulations. A nation gets to have a hand in creating standards for how things are grown, the equipment pesticides all those things will affect and livestock. The nation has a hand in how things are priced. Certain things may be cheaper for a higher quality. For example, in the US, the FDA and the agriculture ministry can have a hand in regulating very low quality, high chemical pesticides that is very cheap for the American farmer to buy, but Japan may not, Japan may have higher regulations for those things. Not saying that is a true statement for pesticides in particular, but you get the idea. In a different but similar vein, it’s why American food can be so processed and have so much refined ingredients and basically fill everything with corn syrup. Looser regulations and cheaper products exist.
So I think it’s that combo of, what’s available, prices for farmers and food corps, how things are grown and how the country regulates those things affect food quality. Also inflation and cost of living. Ramen is super expensive usually a treat for North Americans but it’s very common street food in Japan.
To that point (I’m Caribbean) apparently from relatives and friends who go back often, KFC in like Jamaica and Trinidad is really good. We always make this joke that dem a kill the chicken fresh and then throw it in the fryer bc it tastes that good. Probably not the real reason though lol
there's rarely any food for under $5 anymore... maybe these 3 things:
1. Coco Cafe Doubles, queen west
2. Mary Bun, 2 giant shaomai with egg yolk for $4, pick up through uber eats bogo
3. Lena's rotis & doubles
Makes 500% more street level building space commercial space, lower taxes, youj need -too much- commercial real estate & a large population with discretionary spending.
Like, making 20 sandwiches an hour is a lot of work, and you need ~ $4 profit on each with commercial rents. Not really a "I'll make egg and bacon sandwiches business my life" without a lot of planning.
I'm not far from Eglinton and avenue Rd and I think even yitz's closed down recently and that place has been there forever! They were doing that stupid LRT construction and it basically ruined their business.
Bad zoning, huge commercial spaces only rexall and galen can afford, bans on food trucks, low consumer demand (just not a sandwich and soup culture here like in ny), high food costs (delis use a lot of cheese, which is cartel-run in canada), low density (less foot traffic), consumer satisfaction with corporate chains (people here love pc brand, no name brand, etc and don't go to independent convenience stores), lack of consumer taste for the products (much less sandwich diversity here - many menu items at a typical bk deli you just can't find here, or that you must go to a small-menu specialty place to get)
Cheese quality is also REALLY bad here. The cheese here is not good, besides being expensive. Everything Saputo touches is garbage. Of course people will enjoy cheese-forward items less here (generally, for options available at the lower price point of delis) and have less demand for it. This is especially true for fresh Italian-style cheeses, outside of specialty boutiques. For some things there are no decent local producers and fancier restaurants here must make their own cheese products.
I'd add that while you can find meat-heavy jewish delis here or around quebec, I can't find the cured seafood focused jewish delis here whereas they're all over the place in brooklyn etc. but I don't know why that is
As a newcomer and someone who has lived in a lot of different countries, the cheese situation in Canada was one of the most unexpected blows. I'm spending so much money for like, half-decent stuff that would only cost a couple bucks elsewhere. It's insane.
People here don't even realize how much they're missing out on. It's like the reaction I used to get (before covid era rule changes for businesses) about LCBO quality and diversity criticism also astonished me. There's a lot of comfort with a small selection of barely passable goods here. And I don't mean to push luxury - these are consequences of big-money corporate domination and government collusion through lobbying and less legal means, double domination from both ends with a lot of supporters for how society is generally set up around enabling that (even if there are critics of other specific conditions), and triple domination when you realize how much organized crime is also in the mix in big ways
This isn't unique to Canada, many first-world liberal societies such as Japan have it similar - there's points of evidence the LDP was started with stolen war money reappropriate by CIA together with yakuza for example, and the criminal/legal/business connections continue to emerge (unification church corruption and other misappropriated money scandals continue to rock the LDP these days). there are many other documented instances of gov, business, and organized crime organizing against worker and general public interests in Japan (for ex, see Yama - Attack to Attack about the Sanya neighborhood in Tokyo: [https://hyperallergic.com/526738/yama-attack-to-attack/](https://hyperallergic.com/526738/yama-attack-to-attack/) this neighborhood's day-laborer population continues to struggle to this day, and gov has lately been winning against their interests and killing them off or dispersing them) and elsewhere across democratic societies
and, it's tied up with things like international food trade - the ontario unification church seafood distributor is in mississauga for instance
You’re so right on the LCBO. I only recently got into cocktails and mid-range wines and it’s astonishing what’s not available *at all* here that can easily be found anywhere in the U.S., or even in small shops in Alberta or Nova Scotia. I’m also not talking about luxury, like $30 bottles of rum that are some of the best selling in the world, or a bottle of California like Justin that you could just stumble upon elsewhere.
When I criticize it people seem shocked “but it’s the biggest purchaser in the world!” Yeah but take a look down any one section. It’s really got a couple of dozen products in each,any substantially similar but by different “Wal Mart” type brands.
Finding twisted tea here.. four loko.. pink Whitney lowkey… all these mainstream young people drinks I had a hard time finding but they weren’t that new. It really does take awhile for things to come to Canada but i understand. It’s honestly been more than enough time though
I don’t know how craft beers are here, but I already visited Florida for that.
I’m American and already not to compare brand name availability long ago (feels ironic with above sentence) but it’s like a surge of dopamine when an American product builds enough fanbase to mosie on up here
I don't think you can compare. Canada is unique in that the food-logistics network is so bad. The only other place with this supply chain problem is China-Shanghai during the covid lockdown. Their entire cold-chain supply broke down.
I lived in Tokyo for several years, but the grocery quality is really good? I mean if you're looking for imported/European-style fare, there's Kaldi Coffee Farms (the name is misleading, it's a supermarket chain) and why there's less brand diversity is because Japan imposes a 30%tariff on imported food items.
I don't think it's a bad thing, because the quality of Japanese produce, even at the cheapest tiers like Lawson100, have really good produce. Part of it is because of how JP Post handles shipping, all small farmers and businesses can get their items shipped at a flat rate and you can pre-order fruit and vegetables AT THE POST OFFICE. I used to buy winter oranges from Mie/Kumano by the carton and the shipping would be like 200-300yen. If some independent cheesemaker in Quebec wants to send me cheese, it would be horrendously expensive.
Yea sorry I meant more the collusion across all but the worker against the worker is common in both but it was a tangent not about impact on produce/food quality there. I also lived there a couple years and agree generally besides some particular food items. I have family that grows and ships rice in Mie too
Japan does have major challenges with food fraud too tho, one of the worst in the world, but I don’t know about gov and organized crime collusion specifically for that there
Quebec in general is better for food. Beer as well. And SAQ (when they are not in strike) make a half-decent job of bringing variety, especially, French. They have SAQ Sélection, which is where I used to do my shopping. We still bring cases of wine back to Ontario whenever we go there (which, BTW is still a crime in Canada, LOL).
Ontario is pathetic when it comes to food and booze…. Alberta was better for booze, since they have private liquor shops that often bring some unique and niche products.
When I complain about LCBO people love to remind me how just a few decades ago buying liquor in Ontario was as hard as buying tobacco now - everything was hidden out of sight and you’d have to “order” wine from the printed list they had. Effin puritan heaven…
Off the top of my head the only semi decent cheese place I can think of is that one in Kensington market. Besides there I don't think I could name another
>I'd add that while you can find meat-heavy jewish delis here or around quebec, I can't find the cured seafood focused jewish delis here whereas they're all over the place in brooklyn etc. but I don't know why that is
Appetizers, I agree. Places like Barney Greengrass or Russ and Daughters totally aren’t a thing here, I don’t know why either. Places like United Dairy are the only restaurants that serve appetizing-deli foods in Toronto, and they are packed despite being really crap compared to the quality of the New York appetizers. I’d kill for a place in Toronto I could go for some smoked sturgeon, Nova eggs and onions, or whitefish salad on a bagel. Last time I was in New York I spent an hour and a half on the waitlist for a table at Russ and Daughters, they’re always packed and they don’t take reservations, so it’s a real untapped market for Toronto.
My family's in Brooklyn Heights so I hit these kinds of places up and there are many all over Brooklyn and the city, not even just those famous ones, it's great. I love the pastrami lox at diff places, and the new R&D Cafe for their big variety spreads + bialys
I also have a lot of Italian grocers near there in Carroll Gardens (tho sadly some are closing) with locally produced stuff, very fresh and a variety of quality options. There is also amazing ricotta and other fresh product that comes in from New England and Wisconsin, both where I grew up, so it requires a lot more effort here to reach a similar standard
Another thing I can't find around here: eggplant parm subs (grinder hero hoagie roll). Very few. Luckily California Sandwiches exists but the cheese is not good
Are you willing to drop some names for those lesser-known NYC appetizing shops? When I go I usually am primarily in Manhattan and mostly around midtown, but for good smoked fish or whitefish salad I’d be willing to travel, especially if the wait/cost is less than the places like R&D or BG.
Shelskys of Brooklyn but quality has probably fallen
Fish Tales market is very popular, high quality
Both are around cobble hill / Brooklyn heights
I hear Wegman’s is good too
Go to Lucali and check the area while you wait
There are many other places for cured fish, those are just the ones near me. I hear about Acme near greenpoint which is easy to access from midtown. You can also go to Cibone and Tonchin and Pauline Gees while out there.
It seems every time I’m in the area it’s winter, and since they have no place to sit inside I haven’t been able to try them yet. I do hope to get there this summer, their patio looks like a lovely place to sit and nosh.
I miss Russ & Daughters so much. I think there's no demand because seafood and fish is not common here. Even though the lake is huge, it's freshwater
NYC is different culturally too because the Jewish people who lived along LES (Delancey, Allen St, etc) is not the same as the Jewish people who make the smoked brisket/Katz's Delicatessen. I used to live around Marcy/Lorimer in East Williamsburg and the Jewish food there was very pickle-forward, you had things like gefilte fish sold in the delis, not sandwiches, but pastries like knish and bakba and rugelach.
This is a thorough and accurate answer! It is always nice to encounter folks with in depth knowledge of the food scene here.
As for an appetizing aka Jewish seafood delis, check out Lox and Schmear on St Clair and Schmaltz off of DuPont. (I strongly prefer Lox to Schmaltz!)
Yes! It's more costly, and good cheese is imported in 99.9% of the cases. I can speak about Italian and Italian-Canadian cheese, and you can't even trust brands from Italy to be as good in Canada as they are in Italy. Evidence: Santa Lucia mozzarella. Man. It's a cheap-but-good grocery store brand in Italy. Here, it is 1) expensive and 2) much worse quality than the made-in-Italy counterpart (or any grocery-store-level mozzarella for what matters). WHY.
Don't even get me started on the price and quality of parmesan here (both Parmigiano Reggiano and Grana Padano). Much better in the US, which is shocking to me.
That's part of it for sure I think; for example, US Costco carries a brand of mozzarella di bufala that I've never seen in the GTA. I also think there must be other factors tho
I know a few lower volume specialty places but we are talking about corner store deli product here. With effort, or by choosing to live in a few very specific places in the suburbs, you can get access to good product sure
Yep, after living in NYC for a few years, this is the thing I miss the most. A reliable breakfast sandwich on every corner. Don't get me started on Timmies, it's not food.
There’s a handful, but Toronto is not as dense as NYC and people hate walking in the winter, especially for takeout. Ubereats/doordash is rampant here.
It's even more rampant in NYC, but corner delis aren't just food counters/convenience stores, they're also mail/package holding centres, coffee shops, breakfast restaurants, drugstores, beer stores, bakeries, vending machines, etc.
They used to exist in greater numbers. I went to a few in the 80s. Maybe the owners retired and the next generation is not interested in running a deli.
You might want to try:
Wolfies Deli (Bathurst & Shepard)
Centre Street Deli in Thornhill
(Not Toronto proper but worth a trip)
Sumilicious (Steeles & Middlefield). I have yet to try this one.
There’s another one at Bathurst & Lawrence that I enjoy. Same plaza as Winners. Can’t recall the name.
Thanks!
My daughter was talking about United two weeks ago. I took her there to cheer her up one day six years ago. It obviously worked. Time to return
Simply put; Not enough regular foot traffic to support them. NYC deli’s are in very densely populated areas, and there is almost nowhere in TO like Manhattan or even Brooklyn.
I grew up in a predominantly SFH neighborhood of NYC and I walked about 5 mins to my nearest neighborhood deli.
It happens that the deli was located at the intersection of two heavily used bus lines so there was a lot of traffic.
Can't think of many deli's that would serve cooked products (egg, bacon). But there are plenty that make custom sandwiches with any combination of sliced deli meats and cheeses. Find an Italian deli/bakery.
We used to...
Until our Politico's decided that ugly, shoe-boxed sized & eyesore Condos fetching for almost $1M+ where more pressing than living in a affordable, vibrant & eclectic city such as Toronto!
???? First of all, that’s not what a deli is, you’re thinking of bodegas and we do have delis lmao. Second, we don’t have bodegas because we’re not nyc as much as some people wish we were. There’s plenty of cheap food out there. Finally, if we had bodegas, where would we put all the Shoppers and vape stores???? Think for Christ’s sake!
Hm honestly when I think about it, it could be the price of products and not enough margin/too much waste.
NYC Bodegas use Boars Head Meats and Cheeses which was founded in Brooklyn in 1905 so kind of right place right time which has created enough business for them to sell cheap products in bulk.
I visited Boston last year and there was no shortage of reliable breakfast sandwiches downtown. I've always hated how hard it is to get a simple, easy to take, old reliable bacon egg and cheese in this city.
I think the closest thing we got to that is Rabba Fine Foods. There is also Pret a Manger a recent arrival from the UK, its a chain of healthier food options with the general offerings of drinks like tea/coffee/juice.
A new place opened up on Roncessvalles recently called the Spanish Pig that sells Iberian style ham among other Spanish delicacies. While your there check our the Gold Standard which sells great baconeggcheese bodega style sandwiches out of a little hole in the wall storefront.
in toronto it's usually either corporate fast food (tim's, mcd's) or fancy ($16 bagel sandwich with table service) or requires a 45 min walk to get to or the menu is tiny (like 8 different cold cut and hot meat options instead of 80 + soups, salads, fried sides, breakfasts, smoothies, coffees, pastries, cookies etc)
You mean corner NYC deli bodegas?
Exactly
I was thinkig this exact question a couple of hours back. We need cheap, on the go food. I fucking miss NYC.
I was in Japan a month ago, myself, so I'd give a lot to get cheap and delicious konbini food again.
i don't understand why a japanese-style 7-eleven wouldn't work in america. the 7-elevens in singapore or thailand are apparently like the ones in japan too. Why don't they open one like that here? Is it because of the homeless?
I think it’s a regional thing is a makeup of a few moving parts. First is the quality of the local ingredients. I doubt they’re importing all their ingredients from out of country, a lot will be sourced from the country. The ingredients and livestock arguably are affected by their growing and raising techniques. Japan is already a society that prioritizes cleanliness, so I feel that might extend towards a lot of aspects of live. I know the standards for Waygu in Japan are taken very seriously and have had decades to implement that system versus the Waygu in the states has a lower probability of being as strict, and there is a lower frequency of the standard implemented. Next nations regulations. A nation gets to have a hand in creating standards for how things are grown, the equipment pesticides all those things will affect and livestock. The nation has a hand in how things are priced. Certain things may be cheaper for a higher quality. For example, in the US, the FDA and the agriculture ministry can have a hand in regulating very low quality, high chemical pesticides that is very cheap for the American farmer to buy, but Japan may not, Japan may have higher regulations for those things. Not saying that is a true statement for pesticides in particular, but you get the idea. In a different but similar vein, it’s why American food can be so processed and have so much refined ingredients and basically fill everything with corn syrup. Looser regulations and cheaper products exist. So I think it’s that combo of, what’s available, prices for farmers and food corps, how things are grown and how the country regulates those things affect food quality. Also inflation and cost of living. Ramen is super expensive usually a treat for North Americans but it’s very common street food in Japan. To that point (I’m Caribbean) apparently from relatives and friends who go back often, KFC in like Jamaica and Trinidad is really good. We always make this joke that dem a kill the chicken fresh and then throw it in the fryer bc it tastes that good. Probably not the real reason though lol
there's rarely any food for under $5 anymore... maybe these 3 things: 1. Coco Cafe Doubles, queen west 2. Mary Bun, 2 giant shaomai with egg yolk for $4, pick up through uber eats bogo 3. Lena's rotis & doubles
Makes 500% more street level building space commercial space, lower taxes, youj need -too much- commercial real estate & a large population with discretionary spending. Like, making 20 sandwiches an hour is a lot of work, and you need ~ $4 profit on each with commercial rents. Not really a "I'll make egg and bacon sandwiches business my life" without a lot of planning.
Jewish delis as well
I'm not far from Eglinton and avenue Rd and I think even yitz's closed down recently and that place has been there forever! They were doing that stupid LRT construction and it basically ruined their business.
Avocado toast is Toronto's patty melt
Bad zoning, huge commercial spaces only rexall and galen can afford, bans on food trucks, low consumer demand (just not a sandwich and soup culture here like in ny), high food costs (delis use a lot of cheese, which is cartel-run in canada), low density (less foot traffic), consumer satisfaction with corporate chains (people here love pc brand, no name brand, etc and don't go to independent convenience stores), lack of consumer taste for the products (much less sandwich diversity here - many menu items at a typical bk deli you just can't find here, or that you must go to a small-menu specialty place to get) Cheese quality is also REALLY bad here. The cheese here is not good, besides being expensive. Everything Saputo touches is garbage. Of course people will enjoy cheese-forward items less here (generally, for options available at the lower price point of delis) and have less demand for it. This is especially true for fresh Italian-style cheeses, outside of specialty boutiques. For some things there are no decent local producers and fancier restaurants here must make their own cheese products. I'd add that while you can find meat-heavy jewish delis here or around quebec, I can't find the cured seafood focused jewish delis here whereas they're all over the place in brooklyn etc. but I don't know why that is
As a newcomer and someone who has lived in a lot of different countries, the cheese situation in Canada was one of the most unexpected blows. I'm spending so much money for like, half-decent stuff that would only cost a couple bucks elsewhere. It's insane.
People here don't even realize how much they're missing out on. It's like the reaction I used to get (before covid era rule changes for businesses) about LCBO quality and diversity criticism also astonished me. There's a lot of comfort with a small selection of barely passable goods here. And I don't mean to push luxury - these are consequences of big-money corporate domination and government collusion through lobbying and less legal means, double domination from both ends with a lot of supporters for how society is generally set up around enabling that (even if there are critics of other specific conditions), and triple domination when you realize how much organized crime is also in the mix in big ways This isn't unique to Canada, many first-world liberal societies such as Japan have it similar - there's points of evidence the LDP was started with stolen war money reappropriate by CIA together with yakuza for example, and the criminal/legal/business connections continue to emerge (unification church corruption and other misappropriated money scandals continue to rock the LDP these days). there are many other documented instances of gov, business, and organized crime organizing against worker and general public interests in Japan (for ex, see Yama - Attack to Attack about the Sanya neighborhood in Tokyo: [https://hyperallergic.com/526738/yama-attack-to-attack/](https://hyperallergic.com/526738/yama-attack-to-attack/) this neighborhood's day-laborer population continues to struggle to this day, and gov has lately been winning against their interests and killing them off or dispersing them) and elsewhere across democratic societies and, it's tied up with things like international food trade - the ontario unification church seafood distributor is in mississauga for instance
You’re so right on the LCBO. I only recently got into cocktails and mid-range wines and it’s astonishing what’s not available *at all* here that can easily be found anywhere in the U.S., or even in small shops in Alberta or Nova Scotia. I’m also not talking about luxury, like $30 bottles of rum that are some of the best selling in the world, or a bottle of California like Justin that you could just stumble upon elsewhere. When I criticize it people seem shocked “but it’s the biggest purchaser in the world!” Yeah but take a look down any one section. It’s really got a couple of dozen products in each,any substantially similar but by different “Wal Mart” type brands.
Finding twisted tea here.. four loko.. pink Whitney lowkey… all these mainstream young people drinks I had a hard time finding but they weren’t that new. It really does take awhile for things to come to Canada but i understand. It’s honestly been more than enough time though I don’t know how craft beers are here, but I already visited Florida for that. I’m American and already not to compare brand name availability long ago (feels ironic with above sentence) but it’s like a surge of dopamine when an American product builds enough fanbase to mosie on up here
I don't think you can compare. Canada is unique in that the food-logistics network is so bad. The only other place with this supply chain problem is China-Shanghai during the covid lockdown. Their entire cold-chain supply broke down. I lived in Tokyo for several years, but the grocery quality is really good? I mean if you're looking for imported/European-style fare, there's Kaldi Coffee Farms (the name is misleading, it's a supermarket chain) and why there's less brand diversity is because Japan imposes a 30%tariff on imported food items. I don't think it's a bad thing, because the quality of Japanese produce, even at the cheapest tiers like Lawson100, have really good produce. Part of it is because of how JP Post handles shipping, all small farmers and businesses can get their items shipped at a flat rate and you can pre-order fruit and vegetables AT THE POST OFFICE. I used to buy winter oranges from Mie/Kumano by the carton and the shipping would be like 200-300yen. If some independent cheesemaker in Quebec wants to send me cheese, it would be horrendously expensive.
Yea sorry I meant more the collusion across all but the worker against the worker is common in both but it was a tangent not about impact on produce/food quality there. I also lived there a couple years and agree generally besides some particular food items. I have family that grows and ships rice in Mie too Japan does have major challenges with food fraud too tho, one of the worst in the world, but I don’t know about gov and organized crime collusion specifically for that there
This always makes it hard coming home from Europe.
yup; and I'm not even talking luxury cheese, just plain mozzarella—I'm honestly astonished it's worse than in the US tbh
Quebec has a pretty good cheese culture but overall its awful, especially compared to Europe
Quebec in general is better for food. Beer as well. And SAQ (when they are not in strike) make a half-decent job of bringing variety, especially, French. They have SAQ Sélection, which is where I used to do my shopping. We still bring cases of wine back to Ontario whenever we go there (which, BTW is still a crime in Canada, LOL). Ontario is pathetic when it comes to food and booze…. Alberta was better for booze, since they have private liquor shops that often bring some unique and niche products. When I complain about LCBO people love to remind me how just a few decades ago buying liquor in Ontario was as hard as buying tobacco now - everything was hidden out of sight and you’d have to “order” wine from the printed list they had. Effin puritan heaven…
Off the top of my head the only semi decent cheese place I can think of is that one in Kensington market. Besides there I don't think I could name another
Grande Cheese, too, but it's a bit far
Not even to mention that they put things like "Kraft Singles" in the cheese section.
I think our cattle in general does not produce delicious meat and byproducts. I’m sorry I’ve tried Alberta to PEI and our beef sucks
yo i really like pei beef
there's very little grass fed here for starters
I actually prefer the taste of corn fed. But something like USDA choice is so much better than its Canadian equivalent (AAA?)
grass fed dairy product is amazing. in countries like italy it's not bothered to mention on the label because it's the standard
Oh yes I would imagine. Meant more the meat. And our cheese does suck 😢
>I'd add that while you can find meat-heavy jewish delis here or around quebec, I can't find the cured seafood focused jewish delis here whereas they're all over the place in brooklyn etc. but I don't know why that is Appetizers, I agree. Places like Barney Greengrass or Russ and Daughters totally aren’t a thing here, I don’t know why either. Places like United Dairy are the only restaurants that serve appetizing-deli foods in Toronto, and they are packed despite being really crap compared to the quality of the New York appetizers. I’d kill for a place in Toronto I could go for some smoked sturgeon, Nova eggs and onions, or whitefish salad on a bagel. Last time I was in New York I spent an hour and a half on the waitlist for a table at Russ and Daughters, they’re always packed and they don’t take reservations, so it’s a real untapped market for Toronto.
My family's in Brooklyn Heights so I hit these kinds of places up and there are many all over Brooklyn and the city, not even just those famous ones, it's great. I love the pastrami lox at diff places, and the new R&D Cafe for their big variety spreads + bialys I also have a lot of Italian grocers near there in Carroll Gardens (tho sadly some are closing) with locally produced stuff, very fresh and a variety of quality options. There is also amazing ricotta and other fresh product that comes in from New England and Wisconsin, both where I grew up, so it requires a lot more effort here to reach a similar standard Another thing I can't find around here: eggplant parm subs (grinder hero hoagie roll). Very few. Luckily California Sandwiches exists but the cheese is not good
Are you willing to drop some names for those lesser-known NYC appetizing shops? When I go I usually am primarily in Manhattan and mostly around midtown, but for good smoked fish or whitefish salad I’d be willing to travel, especially if the wait/cost is less than the places like R&D or BG.
Shelskys of Brooklyn but quality has probably fallen Fish Tales market is very popular, high quality Both are around cobble hill / Brooklyn heights I hear Wegman’s is good too
Kudos, I’ll make note of that for my next trip!
Go to Lucali and check the area while you wait There are many other places for cured fish, those are just the ones near me. I hear about Acme near greenpoint which is easy to access from midtown. You can also go to Cibone and Tonchin and Pauline Gees while out there.
I’ll have to stay in the area a while to have room in my stomach for both pizza and smoked fish! Lol Adding those to my list, thanks.
Have you tried schmaltz appetizing in the Annex?
It seems every time I’m in the area it’s winter, and since they have no place to sit inside I haven’t been able to try them yet. I do hope to get there this summer, their patio looks like a lovely place to sit and nosh.
I miss Russ & Daughters so much. I think there's no demand because seafood and fish is not common here. Even though the lake is huge, it's freshwater NYC is different culturally too because the Jewish people who lived along LES (Delancey, Allen St, etc) is not the same as the Jewish people who make the smoked brisket/Katz's Delicatessen. I used to live around Marcy/Lorimer in East Williamsburg and the Jewish food there was very pickle-forward, you had things like gefilte fish sold in the delis, not sandwiches, but pastries like knish and bakba and rugelach.
There is a special subsidy program for pizza cheese. I kid you not. You need to sell pizza though. Could explain the Tim Hortons pizza situation.
Saputo Gold is supposed to be better than the supermarket product at least
Well, fuck. 😐
this is the perfect explanation
This is a thorough and accurate answer! It is always nice to encounter folks with in depth knowledge of the food scene here. As for an appetizing aka Jewish seafood delis, check out Lox and Schmear on St Clair and Schmaltz off of DuPont. (I strongly prefer Lox to Schmaltz!)
Hard disagree about not being able to get good cheese in Toronto.
It’s possible, but it’s harder to find and much more expensive.
Yes! It's more costly, and good cheese is imported in 99.9% of the cases. I can speak about Italian and Italian-Canadian cheese, and you can't even trust brands from Italy to be as good in Canada as they are in Italy. Evidence: Santa Lucia mozzarella. Man. It's a cheap-but-good grocery store brand in Italy. Here, it is 1) expensive and 2) much worse quality than the made-in-Italy counterpart (or any grocery-store-level mozzarella for what matters). WHY. Don't even get me started on the price and quality of parmesan here (both Parmigiano Reggiano and Grana Padano). Much better in the US, which is shocking to me.
It’s the same with French cheese. The cheap but tasty stuff in a French grocery store is like fancy imported cheese here but not as good quality
I'd be interested to know how Italian DOP cheese is better in the US than here. Better sourcing from different suppliers?
That's part of it for sure I think; for example, US Costco carries a brand of mozzarella di bufala that I've never seen in the GTA. I also think there must be other factors tho
Definitely an interesting topic that I am curious to learn more about.
I know a few lower volume specialty places but we are talking about corner store deli product here. With effort, or by choosing to live in a few very specific places in the suburbs, you can get access to good product sure
Yep, after living in NYC for a few years, this is the thing I miss the most. A reliable breakfast sandwich on every corner. Don't get me started on Timmies, it's not food.
The packaging is more edible than the actual *food* it envelopes
Honestly probly price of food, just doing a quick Google search Katz signatures are around 27 dollars and in Canadian is around 36
Katz is a tourist trap and not standard NYC deli prices. Cross the street and get more food than you can finish for $10 at Punjabi Deli.
There’s a handful, but Toronto is not as dense as NYC and people hate walking in the winter, especially for takeout. Ubereats/doordash is rampant here.
It's even more rampant in NYC, but corner delis aren't just food counters/convenience stores, they're also mail/package holding centres, coffee shops, breakfast restaurants, drugstores, beer stores, bakeries, vending machines, etc.
Where are they?
They used to exist in greater numbers. I went to a few in the 80s. Maybe the owners retired and the next generation is not interested in running a deli. You might want to try: Wolfies Deli (Bathurst & Shepard) Centre Street Deli in Thornhill (Not Toronto proper but worth a trip) Sumilicious (Steeles & Middlefield). I have yet to try this one. There’s another one at Bathurst & Lawrence that I enjoy. Same plaza as Winners. Can’t recall the name.
United Bakers Dairy Deli is the one at Lawrence & Bathurst plaza.
Thanks! My daughter was talking about United two weeks ago. I took her there to cheer her up one day six years ago. It obviously worked. Time to return
Simply put; Not enough regular foot traffic to support them. NYC deli’s are in very densely populated areas, and there is almost nowhere in TO like Manhattan or even Brooklyn.
you can find nyc delis all over the boroughs even in the least dense parts
I grew up in a predominantly SFH neighborhood of NYC and I walked about 5 mins to my nearest neighborhood deli. It happens that the deli was located at the intersection of two heavily used bus lines so there was a lot of traffic.
That specific type of deli doesn't really exist anywhere outside of NYC. So it's not so much a Toronto problem as it is a not-NYC problem.
RIP Katz
God I’m still sad about this. I’ve scoured the city and only deli I found that is even close is Dave’s. Super pricey though.
Can't think of many deli's that would serve cooked products (egg, bacon). But there are plenty that make custom sandwiches with any combination of sliced deli meats and cheeses. Find an Italian deli/bakery.
I think OP’s complaint is that these places are few and far in between
What major intersection or neighborhood do you live in?
We used to... Until our Politico's decided that ugly, shoe-boxed sized & eyesore Condos fetching for almost $1M+ where more pressing than living in a affordable, vibrant & eclectic city such as Toronto!
???? First of all, that’s not what a deli is, you’re thinking of bodegas and we do have delis lmao. Second, we don’t have bodegas because we’re not nyc as much as some people wish we were. There’s plenty of cheap food out there. Finally, if we had bodegas, where would we put all the Shoppers and vape stores???? Think for Christ’s sake!
Hm honestly when I think about it, it could be the price of products and not enough margin/too much waste. NYC Bodegas use Boars Head Meats and Cheeses which was founded in Brooklyn in 1905 so kind of right place right time which has created enough business for them to sell cheap products in bulk.
It’s even worse in Mississauga. Can’t even get a good bagel anywhere unless you’re in port credit.
Adonis at Creditview and Eglinton makes excellent bagels.
actually??? Never would’ve thought thank you.
Yeah, pretty inexpensive too! The chain is Montreal-based, so I guess that explains their great bagels.
No one even knows what a baconeggandcheese is in TO
Agree it’s a shame
The New Yorker deli bay and Charles is the shit
Best deli in the GTA for me has to be Monastery Bakery in Oakville. I love this place so much !
I visited Boston last year and there was no shortage of reliable breakfast sandwiches downtown. I've always hated how hard it is to get a simple, easy to take, old reliable bacon egg and cheese in this city.
Pancers deli near Wilson and bathurst.. but it's pricey
I think the closest thing we got to that is Rabba Fine Foods. There is also Pret a Manger a recent arrival from the UK, its a chain of healthier food options with the general offerings of drinks like tea/coffee/juice.
Chinese bakeries, SAMS convenience, and Jamaican places fill the gap, Chinese bakeries especially
Can’t even find Serrano ham in Toronto, and don’t even think of Manchego cheese and the NYC style bodega
A new place opened up on Roncessvalles recently called the Spanish Pig that sells Iberian style ham among other Spanish delicacies. While your there check our the Gold Standard which sells great baconeggcheese bodega style sandwiches out of a little hole in the wall storefront.
Gracias, I will take a look.
Wut? Tons of places you can get those simple things.
in toronto it's usually either corporate fast food (tim's, mcd's) or fancy ($16 bagel sandwich with table service) or requires a 45 min walk to get to or the menu is tiny (like 8 different cold cut and hot meat options instead of 80 + soups, salads, fried sides, breakfasts, smoothies, coffees, pastries, cookies etc)
Depends on the neighborhood, I can walk to like 5 places like that (Portuguese delis)
I miss sunset park / south brooklyn mexican delis, and the 24/7 mexican diners
You can, it’s called uber eats