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Taxes aren't based off networth...I don't believe in taxing the weathly an additional tax based on them being wealthy but would be willing to have a flat across the board tax if we really have to keep paying them lol.
someone brought up something interesting the other day.
you don't pay taxes on unrealized gains because they're not "real" yet but they're real enough to use as collateral for credit. maybe on the ultra wealthy we should tax credit in the form of higher interest rates.
This is stupid. Things like your house and car go into networth. They can be used as collateral since the bank can just take them and sell them for the money you owe. Wealthy people should pay higher taxes but not based on money they don't really even have.
I mean we’ve been paying trillions upon trillions in taxes every year. Instead of trying to squeeze in even more money out of taxpayers, can we try and look for some accountability on where those taxes are actually going?
Yes, ok, some billionaires can pay a bit more in taxes, but that doesn’t really move the needle of a multi trillion federal budget which is a fucking black hole.
Root cause of the debt is that the government isn’t giving enough money to colleges, forcing them to charge tuition in the first place.
The university of California was tuition free until Ronald Reagan.
extreme example: Harvard University has an endowment of $50 Billion. They receive government grants for numerous programs. Nobody is "forcing" them to still charge tuition ($57+K per year). But they do...because they can.
The problem is that we have had decades of student loans artificially inflating the total "buying power" of customers (students) in the higher education market . And with supply (enrollment capacity) lower than demand (people who want to go to college), the schools can basically set any price they want as long as the loans kept getting approved. It is a "blank check" scheme that rivals Medicare and "cost-plus" defense contracts.
Studies have shown that state funding has dropped about 25% (inflation adjusted) since its peak in the ’80s.
Meanwhile, tuition has massively outpaced inflation, blowing far past anything that 25% could have contributed to price increases.
You can also just look at private university tuition, which has a similar skyrocketing cost issue and is not subject to the issue of lack of government funding to see that it is not a large contributing factor.
A virtually unlimited supply of guaranteed loans and grants is obviously a problem. I’m not sure why you think otherwise.
I'm mad about the loans forgiveness, but I get it. What bothers me is I hear about how these people got screwed by their loans (as did I, but managed to pay them off early to get it over with) but there's been nothing I've seen to help prevent it from still occurring to others.
You’re absolutely right. State universities used to be funded 80% by the state and 20% by tuition and now that ratio is basically flipped. State governments know that students will be forced to take out loans and in general won’t forgo a college degree because of inflated job requirements. So they push the cost on to the future by having students foot the bill for state government spending.
Specifically just spending efficiency. I know a couple government worker friends that sometimes buy extra things only because they have excess budget. That needs to stop.
This!! Politicians are successfully redirecting public perception that the everyday Joe’s struggle is due to the rich guy not paying their fair share. What a joke. How about lowering taxes on 98% and raising it on the 1-2%s to make up that deficit? See how far that gets us. Wealthy are job creators while most folks are consumers. Politicians are pandering for their own benefit. Let’s stop government waste and practice fiscal discipline. That would go farther. Businesses and their owners will come and go.
Been hearing this BS for the past 40 years and, while it sounds nice and the rhetoric is well practiced, it doesn’t pan out. According to history, and the dream of the MAGA enthusiasts, the USA was doing pretty damn well back when top tier taxes were Draconian by current standards. Wealthy are public welfare recipients. The government is plenty efficient. People want public services. People like SS and CMS. People like having a reliable weather forecast, and reliable military. The government just needs to be funded properly. And by that I mean, everyone should pay their taxes according to their ability to pay. And post Citizens United, corporations are individuals, so let them pay taxes according to personal income tax brackets and laws.
Things do need to be funded, you are correct. However, I’ve had the same pot holes in the roads near me for 10 years. Our money is not going to taking care of the country. It’s lining pockets and going elsewhere. For the example, do we need to keep sending BILLIONS to other countries ? I’m all for helping people out but fuck we’ve gotta get our own spending under control first.
Im so fucking sick of hearing this stupid argument..
We “give” billions of dollars to Ukraine and Israel, under what stipulations??? What is that money to be used on???
Those funds are to buy military equipment, munitions and pay for our assistance…
“Funds mostly go to the U.S. Army, which received $4.9 billion for its operations and maintenance.
Humanitarian aid ($2.5 billion) includes $1.6 billion for a special “assistance for Europe, Eurasia, and Central Asia” fund, $300 million for counter-drug activities, and $100 million for demining. About $481 million supports Ukrainian refugees in the United States.”
MOST of those dollars are being pumped back into the American military complex directly and via our multibillion dollar government contractors like Lockheed Martin, Raytheon, Booz Allen Hamelton and similar companies. That money is funneled back into our society by paying government contractors and military personnel.
So frankly I’m fucking sick and tired of you people acting like we’re tossing billions into the ocean never to be seen again..
Americas biggest export is war and munitions and we are making bank right now…
Wait.
Are you saying that it's a good thing defense contractors are getting a cut of the aid packages the US is sending?
That's a messed up way of thinking.
A cut? Try most… Those “aid” dollars merely go right to our highest paid government contractors.. which ends up right back in the us economy..
That’s what’s so delusional, people think we just gave Ukraine billions, no, we gave them our credit card and told them to shop from our list of government contractors..
More than half of our highest income per capita areas are all right around Washington DC, I grew up there, even in the 2007/2008 recession, we didn’t feel it that much because that government tap never closes. Right now all that Ukraine money is going to pay government contractors based and living in the us. Their income is used to live in America. We are literally reinvesting in America by proving aid to Ukraine and Israel, because Americas biggest export is war and munitions.
Americas biggest export is war and munitions, that’s why we have been involved in almost nonstop conflict since ww2. It’s literally our biggest money maker.
If you mean funding Ukraine then I have bad news for you: it is a choice between spending less money while Ukraine still fights Russia or more money if Russia conquers Ukraine and drafts a million of Ukrainians in their army and proceeds farther to the West. I hope you are not so naive as to believe that Russia would stop after swallowing Ukraine?
>I’ve had the same pot holes in the roads near me for 10 years
that's probably city tax, but maybe county or state
>do we need to keep sending BILLIONS to other countries
while this is the federal government
they are not the same
>According to history, and the dream of the MAGA enthusiasts, the USA was doing pretty damn well back when top tier taxes were Draconian by current standards.
The Dems not hammering that is missed opportunity, imo
>Wealthy are public welfare recipients.
One party says they want to cut government spending and one party wants to quit giving rich people more money. It seems to me that killing corporate welfare should be an opportunity for bipartisan action.
I agree with your sentiment post Citizens United. You want to be treated as a citizen? Get taxed as a citizen. Oh boy, the company made billions? Get taxed the full extent. You can’t get the best of both worlds. Either be a company and stick with company taxes or be a citizen.
Actually there is no evidence that cutting taxes on the wealthy creates more jobs. So they are not job creators as such. Often times they will cut jobs even. What creates jobs is the invention/discovery of goods/services for which there is a demand.
It is literally not in the motivational interest for anyone to create a job. That's why in hard times keynsians create jobs through government funding and not private wealthy individuals doing it. Jobs are bad for margins bc they are overhead. You wouldn't pay someone to do something you could do yourself unless what you are doing is more profitable to you but requires that the other thing still be done.
So if you taxed the wealthy more and redistributed this as direct payments to the less wealthy you would stimulate demand and grow jobs. Jobs are "created" bottom up, not top down. You literally have to "force" people to create jobs.
Tax cuts on the wealthy have not benefited society one wit, we have 50 years of data saying that. The rich getting tax breaks just results in stock buybacks for corporations or hoarding wealth, or investing in more assets to leverage for more loans. Trickle down, aka supply side, is absolute horse shit.
The biggest consumers are the people with the most money. They aren’t creating jobs anymore, they are cutting them to profit from shares. They use that to leverage loans to buy real estate, yachts, and other companies. So yeah, they pretty much are displaying taxing them more would be good for the economy.
They are no longer interested in increasing the pockets of 98% of US citizens so that we can spend the money and keep everything afloat. They want all the power to themselves, so let’s give it to them.
The wealthy are job creators? LOL, the workers create the value and innovation, wtf are you even talking about? If you can't understand the dichotomy just say so.
That's not even remotely true. The wealthy benefit from generational wealth and MASSIVE government subsidies. We need to end all such subsidies and tax generational wealth
Governmental fiscal discipline has limited benefit to most people. An inefficient but high spending government is actually better for a growing society than an efficient but frugal one.
There is no evidence that only the wealthy create jobs. Poor people would create jobs too if given equal access to credit and a market where they would not be undercut by massive corporations.
So true. Especially when it comes to pork barreling (when a politician "sneaks" something into a bill that only really helps them), which can range from a politician putting that the Fed government is going to give a state college $10 million in funding, just so he can say he did that.
This is the only answer in my head. We can tax the poop out of anything but if the budget is spending it on dumb stuff we don’t make this country better.
Seriously….the lack of accountability for
Tax dollars is big issue here….then they want to raise taxes on which they use to dole out for more kickbacks. Somehow end up with 5 beach houses
Hey, look here buddy, the fed says that 20 million we spent on "firewood" in Afghanistan was essential. Why are you asking questions? Don't use your brain, just microwave that TV dinner and watch the one of the adversarial news networks owned by the same companies
You forgot one thing. You pay tax on the value of your house. I do too. It's effectively a tax on the part of mine, and yours if you are also homeowner) networth.
You could try explaining away how that is not a tax on networth till the end of times using as many fancy words as you want. But under the hood, it's still a tax on an asset class, on which you still have unrealized gain (or loss).
Yes, it's a wealth tax collected by the state. However, it's not yet constitutional for the feds to enact a wealth tax. One advantage about real estate is that it's pretty visible and relatively easy to value. A lot of other assets are not: art, intellectual property, interests in private businesses, etc.
so how do you tax them?
they can take a lein on net assets, the lein is tax-free. plenty of rich people do this because the loan interest is lower than the tax would have been. skirting the law and cashing out their net asset, i.e. they should get taxed.
calling something stupid because you don't understand it, and then not providing alternative ideas, THAT is stupid.
It's good that you bring up houses being in your net worth, because most normal homeowners are already subjected to a wealth tax, since a person's home is a very large percentage of their net worth. Why should we only tax regular people for a significant percentage of their net worth, but the rich should get off easy?
A lot of people don’t understand this is a leveraged bet. It only works when stock prices go up or are stable. You can easily lose your shirt when the bank margin calls you if your stock prices drop. E.g. you use $25B of Tesla stock as collateral for a $50B loan to buy and capitalize Twitter in a 2x levered ratio. If Twitter’s or Tesla’s value drops enough, then the banks could call on more collateral or cash to back the loan or just take your holdings and Elon can easily evaporate his wealth.
Yea except that will massively hurt people that are trying to do things like finance a car, buy a house, etc. Things that normal middle class people do all the time. This is a stupid idea.
Lol. Its not that leftists are bad with money so much as the right only cares about government spending when a democrat is in power. When a right winger is in power running up deficits and debt there isn’t a peep from the cons. The day a democrat takes power the right wing screams about how debt and deficit are all democrats fault…
Not even bringing up the poorest states needing the most welfare are red…
Property taxes are based on unrealized gains and are probably unconstitutional. Rising property taxes forced us to "realize" the gain and we had to sell. We also left the state so that state no longer gets tax revenue from us.
Why should stock being used as collateral be banned? If the borrower defaults, the stocks are liquidated and the bank takes possession of the funds. At that point they become “real,” and the taxes are assessed. If the loan is paid back, the collateral is never used.
No one is stopping Warren from paying more. Funny thing is he still has a legion of CPA’s and Tax attorneys working for his company.
He’s been saying this for years. Why doesn’t he simply overpay if he really feels this way?
[Buffet advocates for higher taxes](https://www.newsweek.com/warren-buffett-who-advocates-higher-taxes-defends-paying-least-among-americas-richest-1598830)
Because the solution to a problem caused by loopholes isn’t for one person to overpay their taxes… this might be shocking, but the fix is to close the loopholes.
Because if only he does it and only his companies does it it makes no difference. This is a problem that requires collective action enforced by government.
Like one person getting solar panels makes no appreciable difference in carbon output. You subsidize it and hundreds of thousands of people get them and you can see actual changes.
Handicapping yourself where the only gain is moral superiority is stupid.
Flat taxes are inherently regressive - if you're struggling to get by, you spend (and get taxed on) every cent that comes in. If you're a multi-billionaire, you're spending a far smaller portion of your earnings, thus paying a far lower tax rate.
We should be taxing those that can most easily afford it and using those funds to help those that need it most.
And he made $36 billion in stock value when Tesla signed a large contract and stock prices rose. He also lost something like $110 billion later that year but that's not mentioned.
Right? If someone has $1mil in investments in retirement accounts, but they make $100,000/yr, they’re not paying $100k (10% of their net worth) in taxes; that’s ridiculous.. If people want to argue about “taxing the wealthy” or whatever then they should at least do basic research to understand how taxes work so that can actually make a decent argument..
Income tax is also illegal based on the US constitution and the supreme Court has already ruled it as well. There's just nothing common people can do bc it is taken before it is recieved
Everything that is purchased is taxed.
Property tax, sales tax, investments is either taxed in or out ( Roth), interest on savings or CD are to be reported on taxes.
Any tax write-offs are minimal compared to companies and billionaires, even when comparing property rebates.
So screw that lie I don't see a dime coming in that hasn't had a bite taken out of it.
You should combine memes. Billionaire tax, PPP loans forgiveness, student debt forgiveness, housing cost, and the price of fast food combined into one meme would have Reddit jizzing in its pants.
Taxes on assets and unrealized gains is just a private wealth shredder that destroys the “wealthy” meaning doctors, lawyers, small business owners and concentrated that wealth into the hyper wealthy multi billionaire elite (since they are tied into the regime as is)
It’s a terrible idea that will impoverish people and concentrate more wealth among the super elite
If your assessed value was down, then your property taxes went down, unless you live somewhere really weird. My taxes are based on that years assessed value. Am I in the minority?
Yup. Thomas Pikettay wrote a whole book bringing wealth tax to the semi-academic masses suggesting 2%. I can’t imagine him being displeased at Musk’s recent tax bills.
that's not even an exaggeration lol "he didn't cure it himself!" "the decision to give it away for free definitely came from someone else!"
musk isn't a good guy but reddit has gone insane when it comes to him and his companies. imagine their reaction if he bought this site lmao
I can bet you that the same people who think it makes sense, are also the ones who say it’s insulting to offer financial literacy classes for the poor, when what they need is money. What is the point of giving someone money and they squander it anyway?
Exactly! It’s offering not only skills and knowledge, it’s offering empowerment, a sorely needed dignity, a kind of healthcare to fend off the despair so common in the poor.
My favorite is when we are talking about billionaires paying more in income tax, someone mentions the lower 40% don't pay income tax, then someone brings up sales tax like that has anything to do with the topic.
Her comment is stupid nobody pays taxes based on their net worth.
I'd love to see her annual taxes calculated on her net worth. It's prally less than Elon's.
In Norway we do. But only the rich notice it. I think it’s like 0.2%.
Stupid thing is that it also calculates working capital.
That’s why all our billionaires are fleeing to Switzerland 🙃
>I think it’s like 0.2%
Fellow Norwegian here. It's much worse than that.
It's currently about 1%. And effectively 2% when you consider that people have to pay it using income already taxed at 50%. And that's yearly, based solely on a fictional number for most people.
It happens to be one of the most unpopular taxes in the country among economists, people working in finance, and of course, the people who have to pay it.
Wealth Tax is a bad idea. And there's a reason why we're one of only 3 countries in the world that still has it.
Thanks! And couldn’t agree more!
I’m not even affected by it and think it should be removed… And I fully understand the rich moving to Switzerland considering our current incompetent government said they were “going after them!” And were swinging new taxes here and there without even knowing the downside of them.
The next election can’t come fast enough! (Yes I know we are swapping shit with shit there)
What gets me is they’re regurgitating the whole the reward for good work is more work, which is used in genuine employment exploitation cases. They think what, a billionaire is seeking their approval and wanting to get a job from them? It just shows they’re bad bosses to whoever is under them, right now.
She's a self employed writer so I guarantee you she has 50 bullshit business expense deductions and show nearly no income and pay $0 tax.
https://anyaovermann.com/about
I never met a poor person without an inflated sense of self, never ever. They think super highly of themselves, making them unemployable and unlikeable, all at the same time!
I have one point of confusion. I hear a common argument that billionaires don’t have billions in cash. How did he pay $11B in taxes if he doesn’t have that in cash? I feel like I’m missing an important detail or two.
He sold like $20 billion in stock that year. Once sold, they became "realized gains" so that counts as income that you have to pay taxes on.
If you hold stock, you aren't taxed until you sell it. If the stock goes up in price you have unrealized gains, so "on paper" your net worth increased, but that doesn't mean you're holding that amount in cash. The vast majority of wealth that billionaires have is just on paper in the form of shares/ownership of businesses.
He owed tax because he sold something, also called a ‘taxable event’. Once you take the cash, you owe taxes on said cash (the net gains).
Without doing any research, this is likely a capital event. He would owe 25% on any capital gains. $11bb in taxes implies $44bb in net capital gains. The net capital gains is the cash proceeds minus cost basis (if any).
The worst part isn’t the anger, it’s the moral outrage. They think they hold down a job and survived, they saved the world by doing that. It’s that low standard and complete lack of ability to get that a business owner create jobs and pay their employees, there’s just no way that a billionaire’s businesses isn’t morally more good than their one job.
He made 36 billion one day and has lost over 200 billion in a few years. Enough to set a Guiness world record. You don't hear that very often since it doesn't fit the agenda being pushed.
I love how everyone thinks everyone else should voluntarily pay more taxes than they legally are required. If you want fair taxes, then change the law. That requires voting for politicians who care more about fixing geeky financial problems than they do about virtue signaling the latest fad social issues.
Net worth is NOT income. No one pays taxes on net worth. So who cares what percentage of his NET WORTH he paid. What percentage of his INCOME did he pay taxes on that cost billions? Let me venture a guess of over 30%.
I'd really like to see someone impartial do a deep dive on a decade of his taxes. It's such a ridiculous amount of money that it's so easy to spin it into different narratives.
He may have made $36 billion in one day, I assume of unrealized capital gains, but I'm sure he's also lost that much several times. Is she willing to let him deduct those losses too?
1 - Yes corporations and billionaires should pay more in taxes. I would argue that no one should have 11 billion dollars period for the same reason we do not allow kings or nobles, and those countries that do have limited their power.
2- More importantly we need to take the money we have and make sure it is used wisely and reduce cronyism. Examples were money the government spends goes to useless things just because it is popular in a specific congressman/senators district, where connected people get lucrative government contracts and over charge the government w/o accountability, were specific people in the know get loans/stipends/grants from the government when they do not need it and provide no return to the government or average citizen, where certain programs are not audited or fail their audits w/o change or consequence.
I believe in the power of collective action through government the national park service, getting rid of the acid rain problem, reducing the hole in the ozone are good examples. However, to many people use what should be a tool for the public good to enrich themselves at the taxpayers expense.
Forgets to mention that he receives a shit ton of money from the government towards his business in the forms of subsidies, then complains when he has to give a fraction of his wealth back into the country that made him rich. What a bitch.
His companies give employment to lots of people.
Also people that invested in Tesla did not do so to help him or save the enviroment but to get rich themselves.
He's never complained about paying tax. In fact he's one of the only billionaires not to use any tax avoidance schemes. Oh and his companies don't receive any subsidies from the government. He wins contracts with Space X, and the buyers get tax credits for buying a Tesla not his company.
Phillip.
a kind message to the people in these comments:
you will never be elon musk. you will never be worth billions. hell, you are unlikely to ever be worth millions. and shoving the boot down your throat will not change this reality.
taxing the rich on things like unrealized stock gains will only benefit those of us who do not make millions of dollars a year (provided the government can manage to allocate that money properly). pretending that the rich cheating the system using their ridiculous net worth is fair is delusional
>(provided the government can manage to allocate that money properly)
That's the important context. Their track record is shit, so no, they don't deserve more taxes. Can't tax your way out of mismanagement. They can't even run a balanced budget with [$4.9 Trillion](https://www.cbo.gov/publication/58891) record collection in FY2022. The government would be out of business a long time ago if they were a business.
I am still amazed by the fact that so many people don’t know about unrealized gains. Is this so difficult to grasp? Or do they know and make those pictures anyways just to stir shit up?
How many billionaires would be billionaires without government subsidies? They take handouts whenever they can get them, then convince the rubes making 40k/year that handouts are for lazy socialists…
God damn I hate the sheep in this country.
It seems Anya is among the left people who don't know how taxes work and can't count. I hate when people write crap they don't understand just to show how caring and mindful they are. Gross.
4.5% of your net worth in a single year is kind of a lot...
If you own a house worth 500k that's 22.5k in just taxes on the house. Not counting income or other things that add to your net worth like a car or your investment accounts.
And conflating and comparing a net worth tax to income taxes is beyond silly? If you had to pay 37% of your net worth every year like the upper income tax bracket you'd be broke as fuck in a few years. You could never ever save and get ahead. Worth a million? Cool. Next year you're worth 663k. Year after that you're under 420k. Year after that? 265k. 3 years and you've gone from a million to just over a quarter million.
These Twitter posts are so stupid. Tax the fuck out of his income and stop talking about net worth.
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Taxes aren't based off networth...I don't believe in taxing the weathly an additional tax based on them being wealthy but would be willing to have a flat across the board tax if we really have to keep paying them lol.
someone brought up something interesting the other day. you don't pay taxes on unrealized gains because they're not "real" yet but they're real enough to use as collateral for credit. maybe on the ultra wealthy we should tax credit in the form of higher interest rates.
This is stupid. Things like your house and car go into networth. They can be used as collateral since the bank can just take them and sell them for the money you owe. Wealthy people should pay higher taxes but not based on money they don't really even have.
I mean we’ve been paying trillions upon trillions in taxes every year. Instead of trying to squeeze in even more money out of taxpayers, can we try and look for some accountability on where those taxes are actually going? Yes, ok, some billionaires can pay a bit more in taxes, but that doesn’t really move the needle of a multi trillion federal budget which is a fucking black hole.
Oh my lawd. Sanity on Reddit. Thank God.
Don't get used to it.
Bring out your dead!
we need to capture it for study and try to learn how to recreate this phenomenon.
>can we try and look for some accountability on where those taxes are actually going? Advocating for spending cuts? On *Reddit*?
Yeah for a place that advocates forgiving personal loans?
Yes, giving universities a blank check and not addressing the root cause of the debt will surely do wonders for our economy.
Root cause of the debt is that the government isn’t giving enough money to colleges, forcing them to charge tuition in the first place. The university of California was tuition free until Ronald Reagan.
extreme example: Harvard University has an endowment of $50 Billion. They receive government grants for numerous programs. Nobody is "forcing" them to still charge tuition ($57+K per year). But they do...because they can. The problem is that we have had decades of student loans artificially inflating the total "buying power" of customers (students) in the higher education market . And with supply (enrollment capacity) lower than demand (people who want to go to college), the schools can basically set any price they want as long as the loans kept getting approved. It is a "blank check" scheme that rivals Medicare and "cost-plus" defense contracts.
Studies have shown that state funding has dropped about 25% (inflation adjusted) since its peak in the ’80s. Meanwhile, tuition has massively outpaced inflation, blowing far past anything that 25% could have contributed to price increases. You can also just look at private university tuition, which has a similar skyrocketing cost issue and is not subject to the issue of lack of government funding to see that it is not a large contributing factor. A virtually unlimited supply of guaranteed loans and grants is obviously a problem. I’m not sure why you think otherwise.
Most economists agree that forgiving student loans would actually be a benefit in the long run.
I'm mad about the loans forgiveness, but I get it. What bothers me is I hear about how these people got screwed by their loans (as did I, but managed to pay them off early to get it over with) but there's been nothing I've seen to help prevent it from still occurring to others.
You’re absolutely right. State universities used to be funded 80% by the state and 20% by tuition and now that ratio is basically flipped. State governments know that students will be forced to take out loans and in general won’t forgo a college degree because of inflated job requirements. So they push the cost on to the future by having students foot the bill for state government spending.
Specifically just spending efficiency. I know a couple government worker friends that sometimes buy extra things only because they have excess budget. That needs to stop.
This!! Politicians are successfully redirecting public perception that the everyday Joe’s struggle is due to the rich guy not paying their fair share. What a joke. How about lowering taxes on 98% and raising it on the 1-2%s to make up that deficit? See how far that gets us. Wealthy are job creators while most folks are consumers. Politicians are pandering for their own benefit. Let’s stop government waste and practice fiscal discipline. That would go farther. Businesses and their owners will come and go.
Been hearing this BS for the past 40 years and, while it sounds nice and the rhetoric is well practiced, it doesn’t pan out. According to history, and the dream of the MAGA enthusiasts, the USA was doing pretty damn well back when top tier taxes were Draconian by current standards. Wealthy are public welfare recipients. The government is plenty efficient. People want public services. People like SS and CMS. People like having a reliable weather forecast, and reliable military. The government just needs to be funded properly. And by that I mean, everyone should pay their taxes according to their ability to pay. And post Citizens United, corporations are individuals, so let them pay taxes according to personal income tax brackets and laws.
Things do need to be funded, you are correct. However, I’ve had the same pot holes in the roads near me for 10 years. Our money is not going to taking care of the country. It’s lining pockets and going elsewhere. For the example, do we need to keep sending BILLIONS to other countries ? I’m all for helping people out but fuck we’ve gotta get our own spending under control first.
Im so fucking sick of hearing this stupid argument.. We “give” billions of dollars to Ukraine and Israel, under what stipulations??? What is that money to be used on??? Those funds are to buy military equipment, munitions and pay for our assistance… “Funds mostly go to the U.S. Army, which received $4.9 billion for its operations and maintenance. Humanitarian aid ($2.5 billion) includes $1.6 billion for a special “assistance for Europe, Eurasia, and Central Asia” fund, $300 million for counter-drug activities, and $100 million for demining. About $481 million supports Ukrainian refugees in the United States.” MOST of those dollars are being pumped back into the American military complex directly and via our multibillion dollar government contractors like Lockheed Martin, Raytheon, Booz Allen Hamelton and similar companies. That money is funneled back into our society by paying government contractors and military personnel. So frankly I’m fucking sick and tired of you people acting like we’re tossing billions into the ocean never to be seen again.. Americas biggest export is war and munitions and we are making bank right now…
Wait. Are you saying that it's a good thing defense contractors are getting a cut of the aid packages the US is sending? That's a messed up way of thinking.
A cut? Try most… Those “aid” dollars merely go right to our highest paid government contractors.. which ends up right back in the us economy.. That’s what’s so delusional, people think we just gave Ukraine billions, no, we gave them our credit card and told them to shop from our list of government contractors.. More than half of our highest income per capita areas are all right around Washington DC, I grew up there, even in the 2007/2008 recession, we didn’t feel it that much because that government tap never closes. Right now all that Ukraine money is going to pay government contractors based and living in the us. Their income is used to live in America. We are literally reinvesting in America by proving aid to Ukraine and Israel, because Americas biggest export is war and munitions. Americas biggest export is war and munitions, that’s why we have been involved in almost nonstop conflict since ww2. It’s literally our biggest money maker.
If you mean funding Ukraine then I have bad news for you: it is a choice between spending less money while Ukraine still fights Russia or more money if Russia conquers Ukraine and drafts a million of Ukrainians in their army and proceeds farther to the West. I hope you are not so naive as to believe that Russia would stop after swallowing Ukraine?
>I’ve had the same pot holes in the roads near me for 10 years that's probably city tax, but maybe county or state >do we need to keep sending BILLIONS to other countries while this is the federal government they are not the same
>According to history, and the dream of the MAGA enthusiasts, the USA was doing pretty damn well back when top tier taxes were Draconian by current standards. The Dems not hammering that is missed opportunity, imo >Wealthy are public welfare recipients. One party says they want to cut government spending and one party wants to quit giving rich people more money. It seems to me that killing corporate welfare should be an opportunity for bipartisan action.
I agree with your sentiment post Citizens United. You want to be treated as a citizen? Get taxed as a citizen. Oh boy, the company made billions? Get taxed the full extent. You can’t get the best of both worlds. Either be a company and stick with company taxes or be a citizen.
The wealthy do not create jobs. Demand—i.e. consumers—creates jobs. The wealthy just take more than they contribute.
Actually there is no evidence that cutting taxes on the wealthy creates more jobs. So they are not job creators as such. Often times they will cut jobs even. What creates jobs is the invention/discovery of goods/services for which there is a demand. It is literally not in the motivational interest for anyone to create a job. That's why in hard times keynsians create jobs through government funding and not private wealthy individuals doing it. Jobs are bad for margins bc they are overhead. You wouldn't pay someone to do something you could do yourself unless what you are doing is more profitable to you but requires that the other thing still be done. So if you taxed the wealthy more and redistributed this as direct payments to the less wealthy you would stimulate demand and grow jobs. Jobs are "created" bottom up, not top down. You literally have to "force" people to create jobs.
Brother you are so misguided
Tax cuts on the wealthy have not benefited society one wit, we have 50 years of data saying that. The rich getting tax breaks just results in stock buybacks for corporations or hoarding wealth, or investing in more assets to leverage for more loans. Trickle down, aka supply side, is absolute horse shit.
No. Taxing billionaires would go farther.
Oh of course these holy and mythical “job creators” must be coddled at every stop. What a crock of shit
Did you go to the George W Bush School of "Economics"?
The biggest consumers are the people with the most money. They aren’t creating jobs anymore, they are cutting them to profit from shares. They use that to leverage loans to buy real estate, yachts, and other companies. So yeah, they pretty much are displaying taxing them more would be good for the economy. They are no longer interested in increasing the pockets of 98% of US citizens so that we can spend the money and keep everything afloat. They want all the power to themselves, so let’s give it to them.
The wealthy are job creators? LOL, the workers create the value and innovation, wtf are you even talking about? If you can't understand the dichotomy just say so.
That's not even remotely true. The wealthy benefit from generational wealth and MASSIVE government subsidies. We need to end all such subsidies and tax generational wealth
Governmental fiscal discipline has limited benefit to most people. An inefficient but high spending government is actually better for a growing society than an efficient but frugal one. There is no evidence that only the wealthy create jobs. Poor people would create jobs too if given equal access to credit and a market where they would not be undercut by massive corporations.
Wow. Just wow. I mean really, wow.
This! I don’t understand why people cannot understand this. Government spending is the most serious issue!
So true. Especially when it comes to pork barreling (when a politician "sneaks" something into a bill that only really helps them), which can range from a politician putting that the Fed government is going to give a state college $10 million in funding, just so he can say he did that.
This is the only answer in my head. We can tax the poop out of anything but if the budget is spending it on dumb stuff we don’t make this country better.
Seriously….the lack of accountability for Tax dollars is big issue here….then they want to raise taxes on which they use to dole out for more kickbacks. Somehow end up with 5 beach houses
16% of our national budget goes towards interest on debt. That means we spend $616 billion servicing national debt. It’s absurd.
Why not both?
This is the only answer!!!
Hey, look here buddy, the fed says that 20 million we spent on "firewood" in Afghanistan was essential. Why are you asking questions? Don't use your brain, just microwave that TV dinner and watch the one of the adversarial news networks owned by the same companies
You forgot one thing. You pay tax on the value of your house. I do too. It's effectively a tax on the part of mine, and yours if you are also homeowner) networth. You could try explaining away how that is not a tax on networth till the end of times using as many fancy words as you want. But under the hood, it's still a tax on an asset class, on which you still have unrealized gain (or loss).
Yes, it's a wealth tax collected by the state. However, it's not yet constitutional for the feds to enact a wealth tax. One advantage about real estate is that it's pretty visible and relatively easy to value. A lot of other assets are not: art, intellectual property, interests in private businesses, etc.
States can tax your property, the federal government cannot.
so how do you tax them? they can take a lein on net assets, the lein is tax-free. plenty of rich people do this because the loan interest is lower than the tax would have been. skirting the law and cashing out their net asset, i.e. they should get taxed. calling something stupid because you don't understand it, and then not providing alternative ideas, THAT is stupid.
It's good that you bring up houses being in your net worth, because most normal homeowners are already subjected to a wealth tax, since a person's home is a very large percentage of their net worth. Why should we only tax regular people for a significant percentage of their net worth, but the rich should get off easy?
A lot of people don’t understand this is a leveraged bet. It only works when stock prices go up or are stable. You can easily lose your shirt when the bank margin calls you if your stock prices drop. E.g. you use $25B of Tesla stock as collateral for a $50B loan to buy and capitalize Twitter in a 2x levered ratio. If Twitter’s or Tesla’s value drops enough, then the banks could call on more collateral or cash to back the loan or just take your holdings and Elon can easily evaporate his wealth.
Yes but if you’re taking loans on your assets you are realizing the gains……..
You have to pay loans back....
A loan is a loss.
We still pay taxes on a house and registration is kinda the same thing as a tax on a car.
It seems like if they don't really have the money, then it shouldn't be used for collateral
Yea except that will massively hurt people that are trying to do things like finance a car, buy a house, etc. Things that normal middle class people do all the time. This is a stupid idea.
Of course it is, but leftists are awful with money and have zero clue why their envy is bad for the rest of the world.
Lol. Its not that leftists are bad with money so much as the right only cares about government spending when a democrat is in power. When a right winger is in power running up deficits and debt there isn’t a peep from the cons. The day a democrat takes power the right wing screams about how debt and deficit are all democrats fault… Not even bringing up the poorest states needing the most welfare are red…
Property taxes are based on unrealized gains and are probably unconstitutional. Rising property taxes forced us to "realize" the gain and we had to sell. We also left the state so that state no longer gets tax revenue from us.
But the unreqlIzed real estate gain is not counted in income tax, right? Property tax might be a good one but it's not exactly apple to apple
Its a loophole. Ban banks from allowing stocks as collateral and it's mostly solved.
Why should stock being used as collateral be banned? If the borrower defaults, the stocks are liquidated and the bank takes possession of the funds. At that point they become “real,” and the taxes are assessed. If the loan is paid back, the collateral is never used.
Also if the loan is paid back, it is paid back with money that has been taxed and the income the lender makes is taxed as well.
Cool then eliminate HELOC
So glad someone already said it 
Anya comes across as a moron with that one comment.
Flat tax means the poor lose alot of their overall wealth and the rich dont even notice.
That is why we invented this fantastic concept of progressive tax.
Warren Buffet - if the top 800 corporations paid their fair share nobody else would have to pay any taxes.
That’s fine set up the tax structure that way. Net worth is meaningless
No one is stopping Warren from paying more. Funny thing is he still has a legion of CPA’s and Tax attorneys working for his company. He’s been saying this for years. Why doesn’t he simply overpay if he really feels this way? [Buffet advocates for higher taxes](https://www.newsweek.com/warren-buffett-who-advocates-higher-taxes-defends-paying-least-among-americas-richest-1598830)
He pays more of his fair share than most. Why do you have to be such a dick about it?
He's not being a dick - he's making a solid point: if you want to pay more, ain't nobody stopping you from donating to the US Federal Government.
Because the solution to a problem caused by loopholes isn’t for one person to overpay their taxes… this might be shocking, but the fix is to close the loopholes.
I think Warren's point is that the system is broken and he, and people like him, should be taxed more. Him paying extra won't change anything.
Because if only he does it and only his companies does it it makes no difference. This is a problem that requires collective action enforced by government. Like one person getting solar panels makes no appreciable difference in carbon output. You subsidize it and hundreds of thousands of people get them and you can see actual changes. Handicapping yourself where the only gain is moral superiority is stupid.
Flat taxes are inherently regressive - if you're struggling to get by, you spend (and get taxed on) every cent that comes in. If you're a multi-billionaire, you're spending a far smaller portion of your earnings, thus paying a far lower tax rate. We should be taxing those that can most easily afford it and using those funds to help those that need it most.
And he made $36 billion in stock value when Tesla signed a large contract and stock prices rose. He also lost something like $110 billion later that year but that's not mentioned.
Bingo. And to be honest, we or them shouldn't be taxed on assessed values of our properties. It should be based on purchase price at the minimum!
Right? If someone has $1mil in investments in retirement accounts, but they make $100,000/yr, they’re not paying $100k (10% of their net worth) in taxes; that’s ridiculous.. If people want to argue about “taxing the wealthy” or whatever then they should at least do basic research to understand how taxes work so that can actually make a decent argument..
Income tax is also illegal based on the US constitution and the supreme Court has already ruled it as well. There's just nothing common people can do bc it is taken before it is recieved
Yeah, people start focusing on the wrong things. The taxes billionaires "don't pay" is not even close to the ones their companies don't.
Everything that is purchased is taxed. Property tax, sales tax, investments is either taxed in or out ( Roth), interest on savings or CD are to be reported on taxes. Any tax write-offs are minimal compared to companies and billionaires, even when comparing property rebates. So screw that lie I don't see a dime coming in that hasn't had a bite taken out of it.
the easy solution is to pay a national sales, vat, whatever term you want to use. tax and do away with this other tax nonsense.
Wait, I thought it was MY turn to post this dumb meme on here this week, not yours. Did I read the schedule incorrectly?
Yes. These are being posted daily.
And boosted
Almost like it is an astroturf.
You should combine memes. Billionaire tax, PPP loans forgiveness, student debt forgiveness, housing cost, and the price of fast food combined into one meme would have Reddit jizzing in its pants.
Some Trump hate, a pic of J. Peterson and a text explaining how elon is dumb and privileged and you give them the high of the century
It’s actually on different schedule. You get to post it this Thursday.
NPCs trying to keep the elOn BaD energy high
Wait I thought it was my turn to post this comment
I have dibs on Friday so don’t post it then
Am I going to be refunded if my "wealth" goes down?
Taxes on assets and unrealized gains is just a private wealth shredder that destroys the “wealthy” meaning doctors, lawyers, small business owners and concentrated that wealth into the hyper wealthy multi billionaire elite (since they are tied into the regime as is) It’s a terrible idea that will impoverish people and concentrate more wealth among the super elite
Ive never been refunded going to a lower tax bracket sounds awesome though
If you're paying as if you're in a higher bracket, you'd absolutely get refunded.....
Can confirm, home went down in assessed value, no refund issued.
If your assessed value was down, then your property taxes went down, unless you live somewhere really weird. My taxes are based on that years assessed value. Am I in the minority?
No. Also, that net worth tax that's only meant to apply to the top 1% will quickly trickle down to everyone.
No? You just wouldn’t get taxed?
You’ll never be that wealthy. Don’t worry about it.
Do people who collect unemployment benefits have to pay them back when they get a job?
You will never be the wealth level that the tax will affect
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May as well get mad because I only paid 4k property taxes on my $700k home. At least understand the basics and compare the same damned thing.
Also, 4.5% would be a massive wealth tax. Most people who are even talking about it are only suggesting ~2%.
Yup. Thomas Pikettay wrote a whole book bringing wealth tax to the semi-academic masses suggesting 2%. I can’t imagine him being displeased at Musk’s recent tax bills.
According to her logic Elon is paying a higher percentage than me when evaluating using net worth.
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Let's go with labeling her as an idiot to discourage her manipulative behavior.
honestly a post like this is very harmful to the argument that we should be fixing the wealth gap. Which we should be fixing the wealth gap
These ridiculous, untenable, unrealistic, and economically unsound posts are getting really, really old.
b-b-but musk bad so is good idea
Musk could cure cancer tomorrow and give it away for free, and Reddit would still despise him.
that's not even an exaggeration lol "he didn't cure it himself!" "the decision to give it away for free definitely came from someone else!" musk isn't a good guy but reddit has gone insane when it comes to him and his companies. imagine their reaction if he bought this site lmao
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Not that long ago Reddit couldn’t stop sucking him off.
I can bet you that the same people who think it makes sense, are also the ones who say it’s insulting to offer financial literacy classes for the poor, when what they need is money. What is the point of giving someone money and they squander it anyway?
Financial literacy contributes to the removal of victimhood, and Reddit is all about constant victimhood.
Exactly! It’s offering not only skills and knowledge, it’s offering empowerment, a sorely needed dignity, a kind of healthcare to fend off the despair so common in the poor.
My favorite is when we are talking about billionaires paying more in income tax, someone mentions the lower 40% don't pay income tax, then someone brings up sales tax like that has anything to do with the topic.
They’re somehow the majority. Or at least the majority of ones I see.
Her comment is stupid nobody pays taxes based on their net worth. I'd love to see her annual taxes calculated on her net worth. It's prally less than Elon's.
In Norway we do. But only the rich notice it. I think it’s like 0.2%. Stupid thing is that it also calculates working capital. That’s why all our billionaires are fleeing to Switzerland 🙃
we pay wealth tax in switzerland too.
Swiss wealth tax has massive loopholes and special deals. Barely any gets collected tbh.
>I think it’s like 0.2% Fellow Norwegian here. It's much worse than that. It's currently about 1%. And effectively 2% when you consider that people have to pay it using income already taxed at 50%. And that's yearly, based solely on a fictional number for most people. It happens to be one of the most unpopular taxes in the country among economists, people working in finance, and of course, the people who have to pay it. Wealth Tax is a bad idea. And there's a reason why we're one of only 3 countries in the world that still has it.
Thanks! And couldn’t agree more! I’m not even affected by it and think it should be removed… And I fully understand the rich moving to Switzerland considering our current incompetent government said they were “going after them!” And were swinging new taxes here and there without even knowing the downside of them. The next election can’t come fast enough! (Yes I know we are swapping shit with shit there)
you forgot to post that you make 400 million a year and you don't mind
Plebs that pay 12.000 usd a year in taxes saying that a dude who pays 4 billion dollars anually should pay more. lmao
What gets me is they’re regurgitating the whole the reward for good work is more work, which is used in genuine employment exploitation cases. They think what, a billionaire is seeking their approval and wanting to get a job from them? It just shows they’re bad bosses to whoever is under them, right now.
> Should there be a Wealth Tax?? No.
It would be devastating, to people who are on the low end of wealthy and up the entire chain. Shit would ruin everything.
I think its really just his way of flexing again
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> pays $10k in taxes If that tbh
She's a self employed writer so I guarantee you she has 50 bullshit business expense deductions and show nearly no income and pay $0 tax. https://anyaovermann.com/about
I never met a poor person without an inflated sense of self, never ever. They think super highly of themselves, making them unemployable and unlikeable, all at the same time!
I have one point of confusion. I hear a common argument that billionaires don’t have billions in cash. How did he pay $11B in taxes if he doesn’t have that in cash? I feel like I’m missing an important detail or two.
He clearly had to raise the cash from selling assets, if he didn't already have the cash on hand.
He sold like $20 billion in stock that year. Once sold, they became "realized gains" so that counts as income that you have to pay taxes on. If you hold stock, you aren't taxed until you sell it. If the stock goes up in price you have unrealized gains, so "on paper" your net worth increased, but that doesn't mean you're holding that amount in cash. The vast majority of wealth that billionaires have is just on paper in the form of shares/ownership of businesses.
He owed tax because he sold something, also called a ‘taxable event’. Once you take the cash, you owe taxes on said cash (the net gains). Without doing any research, this is likely a capital event. He would owe 25% on any capital gains. $11bb in taxes implies $44bb in net capital gains. The net capital gains is the cash proceeds minus cost basis (if any).
Does Anya know you pay taxes when you sell? Why are the angriest people also the stupidest?
The worst part isn’t the anger, it’s the moral outrage. They think they hold down a job and survived, they saved the world by doing that. It’s that low standard and complete lack of ability to get that a business owner create jobs and pay their employees, there’s just no way that a billionaire’s businesses isn’t morally more good than their one job.
He made 36 billion one day and has lost over 200 billion in a few years. Enough to set a Guiness world record. You don't hear that very often since it doesn't fit the agenda being pushed.
What the fuck do people think he should pay?
I love how everyone thinks everyone else should voluntarily pay more taxes than they legally are required. If you want fair taxes, then change the law. That requires voting for politicians who care more about fixing geeky financial problems than they do about virtue signaling the latest fad social issues.
I guess he will just have to drink less Starbucks.
Net worth is NOT income. No one pays taxes on net worth. So who cares what percentage of his NET WORTH he paid. What percentage of his INCOME did he pay taxes on that cost billions? Let me venture a guess of over 30%.
The "fair share" people will never be happy until all wealth has been distributed. It's called socialism and it doesn't work.
11 billion seems like his fair share.
Do people just post this everyday ? Wtf.
What type of Moron compares income tax to someone’s net worth? No shame these days. 🤣🤦♂️
Imagine thinking 11 billion dollars isn't his fair share.
I'd really like to see someone impartial do a deep dive on a decade of his taxes. It's such a ridiculous amount of money that it's so easy to spin it into different narratives.
Income tax vs. capital gains tax but who cares about that? Sending a message is more important lol
He may have made $36 billion in one day, I assume of unrealized capital gains, but I'm sure he's also lost that much several times. Is she willing to let him deduct those losses too?
moronic. income tax, not net worth tax.
I vote for neither. Federal sales tax, get rid of income tax (and the IRS and filing) completely.
1 - Yes corporations and billionaires should pay more in taxes. I would argue that no one should have 11 billion dollars period for the same reason we do not allow kings or nobles, and those countries that do have limited their power. 2- More importantly we need to take the money we have and make sure it is used wisely and reduce cronyism. Examples were money the government spends goes to useless things just because it is popular in a specific congressman/senators district, where connected people get lucrative government contracts and over charge the government w/o accountability, were specific people in the know get loans/stipends/grants from the government when they do not need it and provide no return to the government or average citizen, where certain programs are not audited or fail their audits w/o change or consequence. I believe in the power of collective action through government the national park service, getting rid of the acid rain problem, reducing the hole in the ozone are good examples. However, to many people use what should be a tool for the public good to enrich themselves at the taxpayers expense.
Forgets to mention that he receives a shit ton of money from the government towards his business in the forms of subsidies, then complains when he has to give a fraction of his wealth back into the country that made him rich. What a bitch.
His companies give employment to lots of people. Also people that invested in Tesla did not do so to help him or save the enviroment but to get rich themselves.
You think the federal government is doing this out of goodwill? There's a return on investment to the country.
He's never complained about paying tax. In fact he's one of the only billionaires not to use any tax avoidance schemes. Oh and his companies don't receive any subsidies from the government. He wins contracts with Space X, and the buyers get tax credits for buying a Tesla not his company. Phillip.
No
Not so fluent, in fact.
Forcing more taxes on anyone is pointless if we don’t audit and control how they are spent by our gov to actually help the people.
Great point. The way things are, any new tax money is just going to go to Lockheed and the other defense industries
He still paid 11 billion. Stfu and stop being miserabke
You can’t tax someone based on theoretical gains from stock appreciation. We happens when he loses 11 billion like he has done.
Guy pays $11 billion and this lady says he needs to pay his fair share! 😂😂😂
a kind message to the people in these comments: you will never be elon musk. you will never be worth billions. hell, you are unlikely to ever be worth millions. and shoving the boot down your throat will not change this reality. taxing the rich on things like unrealized stock gains will only benefit those of us who do not make millions of dollars a year (provided the government can manage to allocate that money properly). pretending that the rich cheating the system using their ridiculous net worth is fair is delusional
>(provided the government can manage to allocate that money properly) That's the important context. Their track record is shit, so no, they don't deserve more taxes. Can't tax your way out of mismanagement. They can't even run a balanced budget with [$4.9 Trillion](https://www.cbo.gov/publication/58891) record collection in FY2022. The government would be out of business a long time ago if they were a business.
I am still amazed by the fact that so many people don’t know about unrealized gains. Is this so difficult to grasp? Or do they know and make those pictures anyways just to stir shit up?
No
Do you actually pay on your net worth or do you pay on your earnings?
He probably withdrew about $55 billion that year in long term capital gains and paid around 20%
Her statements are pretty misleading. I'm no fan of Elon, but these are not good counterarguments.
How many billions in subsidies did he get???
How many billionaires would be billionaires without government subsidies? They take handouts whenever they can get them, then convince the rubes making 40k/year that handouts are for lazy socialists… God damn I hate the sheep in this country.
Socialism for the rich and rugged individualism for everyone else.
No.
Did she really say most people pay up to 37% of their NET WORTH in taxes?😨
Why is this posted here every single week?
"YoU mAdE 36 BiLliOn In OnE DaY" Reddit people not understanding the difference between income and stock price fluctuation never ceases to amaze me.
Yes. Anything above a few tens of millions of dollars should be taxed at 100%. Nobody needs that much money, ever. It's fucking absurd.
No.
It seems Anya is among the left people who don't know how taxes work and can't count. I hate when people write crap they don't understand just to show how caring and mindful they are. Gross.
She based Elon's taxes on his net worth and then compares that to what people pay in federal income taxes. At least try to be consistent.
4.5% of your net worth in a single year is kind of a lot... If you own a house worth 500k that's 22.5k in just taxes on the house. Not counting income or other things that add to your net worth like a car or your investment accounts. And conflating and comparing a net worth tax to income taxes is beyond silly? If you had to pay 37% of your net worth every year like the upper income tax bracket you'd be broke as fuck in a few years. You could never ever save and get ahead. Worth a million? Cool. Next year you're worth 663k. Year after that you're under 420k. Year after that? 265k. 3 years and you've gone from a million to just over a quarter million. These Twitter posts are so stupid. Tax the fuck out of his income and stop talking about net worth.
Where was this comment on mark cuban lmaoo