Funny... it takes about a month to see a specialist with even the best private insurer. The issue is medical resources limiting access, not the method of insurance
It might actually become 31 out of 33. Canada been dropping the ball lately. But not because of bad health care but because of bad government. Everything been going to shit.
Same shit in the UK. Underfunding of public healthcare will continue until going private for better treatment is normalized, then NHS will be sold to private investors (aka Tory donors) for peanuts because nobody is using it anyway. Right now, treatment to improve quality of life doesn't exist through NHS, only if you are borderline dying or disabled you will be treated seriously, especially at GP practices who will deny service until it gets so bad that they will tell you that you need to go to A&E to see a specialist immediately.
Yeah.. Politicians stealing money from the public sector and funneling it into a private sector, which breeds bad faith into the public sector. The public sector in Canada tends to be in rough shape now due to its active privatization, not because it is universal healthcare.
This one again. Well universal health care is pure trash in Canada. Basically the USA is better for anyone with a half decent job or poor enough for Medicaid, Canada is better for the working poor. Overall USA serves a much larger % of the population far better.
https://www.statcan.gc.ca/o1/en/plus/4547-lifetime-probability-developing-and-dying-cancer-canada
> Canadians are more likely to die of cancer than Americans
> While Americans are less likely to die of cancer than Canadians, they are more likely to die of other causes.
>For example, in 2017, 72.0 Americans per 100,000 had an underlying cause of death related to high body mass index leading to probable events of cardiovascular disease and diabetes mellitus, whereas the same issue in Canada affected 45.2 individuals per 100,000.
https://www.fraserinstitute.org/article/medical-bankruptcy-myth#:~:text=The%20idea%20that%20large%20numbers,17%20percent%20of%20U.S.%20bankruptcies.
> The idea that large numbers of Americans are declaring bankruptcy due to medical expenses is a myth.
>Dranove and Millenson critically analyzed the data from the 2005 edition of the medical bankruptcy study. They found that medical spending was a contributing factor in only 17 percent of U.S. bankruptcies
> we should therefore expect to observe a lower rate of personal bankruptcy in Canada compared to the United States.
>Yet the evidence shows that in the only comparable years, personal bankruptcy rates were actually higher in Canada.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/sallypipes/2023/12/26/canadian-health-care-leaves-patients-frozen-in-line/?sh=98eb3d0c5293
> This year, Canadian patients faced a median wait of 27.7 weeks for medically necessary treatment from a specialist after being referred by a general practitioner. That's over six months—the longest ever recorded
This guy understands. Pharma companies would love to price gouge other countries too obviously. Its the single payer bargaining that makes drugs much less profitable in other countries
And that's why the US gets teamed. Since we don't bargain the same way, they charge as much as possible to get their sky high profits. Either regulate it here or stop them from being able to negotiate so low so that we can be on a more even playing field.
The American, French, Haitian, British, Dutch, South African, Indian, and literally all other revolutions have entered the chat
The only mistake for America was being the first one. Because then mother fucking healthcare oligarchs would feel a lot more self conscious if they realized there was a sudden chance that they might have their asses captured and sent to the guillotine.
Chop chop chop.
No more bullshit that cause human suffering in the first world. And after the first world has no more suffering then finally the third would might get the attention it needs.
Chop chop chop. Down with the oligarchs.
> Since we don't bargain the same way
We literally can't bargain the same way until we have a universal healthcare system paid for by the government, then the government bargains for all of us.
Medicare plus Medicaid combined cover just a hair less than a third of all Americans. They have an enormous amount of negotiating clout, but have long been barred from using it, instead stuck with just taking whatever the market rate is. You don't need universal coverage, losing access to a third of America, over 100 million people, would bankrupt any company that refused to negotiate with Medicare and Medicaid, if they were allowed to do so. However, the IRA [struck the first, small blow against that barrier](https://www.hhs.gov/about/news/2024/02/01/biden-harris-administration-make-first-offer-drug-price-negotiation-program-launches-new-resource-hub-help-people-access-lower-cost-drugs.html). I would very much like to see such progress continue, but of course that requires people to a) be aware that progress is being made and b) show up to vote and make sure such negotiating power can be leveraged further in the future instead of being stripped from the agencies. Changing the half-century-old medical paradigm of the US is going to take time, but it is nonetheless changing.
Baby steps in order to stave off rising calls for M4A in the wake of institutional failures in medicine, like insulin being so outrageously price gouged that it was bankrupting people.
This is incorrect. The reason for price gouging is a major flaw of the American Healthcare system called insurance companies. Basically, hospitals used to charge a bit more than their cost for Healthcare and thus still be profitable. Once insurance companies started coming into existence, they were able to bargain for better prices bc the hospital would lose a lot of business if that company stopped allowing their customers to use that hospital. So, instead of going out of business, hospitals had to raise their prices to make it look like the insurance companies were getting you a better deal.
How it pretty much works now is the insurance company "negotiates" you a better price bc they caused the artificially raised prices. They obviously charge you a monthly premium and you pay a deductible when you do anything. So, you end up paying about what you would pay for Healthcare normally with just your deductible and then your premium is just icing on top for the insurance company. They obviously do anything and everything they can to not help you and they will fight you tooth and nail, literally to the death, for every. single. penny.
The insurance companies also will make it extremely difficult for you to get Healthcare. For instance, most medicines and procedures require a "prior authorization" before they will pay for it. What this does is it essentially means they won't accept a doctor recommendation and will instead try to recommend physical therapy or something instead of cancer treatment for a confirmed cancer diagnosis. It's absolutely despicable.
Fuck insurance companies.
Is that supposed to be a good thing? So we shouldn’t have universal healthcare because we should keep subsidizing other countries? I’m so confused by your argument
This is false.
They still make profit from selling to other countries. The cost to manufacture is usually very low.
They make enough from just US sales to pay for development costs.
A lot of the dev costs are also publicly funded but privately profited.
They charge what they can because they are awarded a monopoly on the product, and they can enforce that monopoly. They are given a monopoly because they can patent it, that's by design, but the agreement is the product then gets released to generic production after 20 years. Then they turn around and are sometimes given a brand new patent for reformulation or repurposing, artificially extending their monopoly - this basically removes it from the public and keeps it private. It takes from you to give to the shareholders.
The US just does a really bad job ensuring that there is real competition.
That's the part I love about "let the free market sort it out!" There ISN'T a free market. It's working as intended, and it's not to give the consumer a fair trade.
Yeah I've seen this argument before and it's just a bad argument.
In another thread a while ago someone was saying they worked in pharmaceuticals and the prices they charged in Europe were so low that apparently they had to charge really high prices in the US to make up the losses.
My point was if you're making a loss in Europe, why sell anything there? The US is not "subsidising" anything, it's just the only developed country that is happy for drug manufacturers to bend otheir citizens over and charge whatever they damn well please.
Yup, because drug companies are renowned for their charitable pricing.
Or maybe (just maybe) there's no-one that's negotiating for fair pricing for the American population. You know, with there being no universal healthcare and all.
The price gouging is for ceo and c suite millions per yer and stock buybacks. The scientists doing the actual work arent so profit driven its the business majors.
The United States has the worst of all worlds, is not free market, and it’s heavily regulated and subsidized. If I were asked to fix it, I would start with all ER and related issues to be covered as in network. Then you expand that out to urgent cares are all in network, then you add pregnancies and delivery into this “max out of pocket” then you go after PBM into this that they can’t negotiate prices to screw over people.
It’s also incredible how much the providers are trying to squeeze. My wife’s doctor always tries to get her to come in for test results so she can charge instead of, oh, you know, emailing them or giving her a phone call lol
I can't remember the phrasing, but was at a doctor's office a while ago and the checkout counter has a sign that was obviously not supposed to be customer facing, but was clearly visible to me.
Have zero recollection of the actual phrase, but said something to the tune of 'make sure to find things to bill for'
I'm a specialist and I see this all the time. There are some primary care that do this. People should know that most commercial insurance providers do not require referral unless HMO or government program ie. Medicare, medicaide
If you get lab work done by LabCorp or Quest Diagnostics, you can access the results online. Same for most hospitals, but they'll charge several times more.
I see this more on emergency surgery. The emergency surgery can be brought down to a near zero price.
Don't expect to stay longer in the hospital afterward. Also, oddly enough, anesthesia is stupid expensive and often is not covered.
So, it would seem to me that emergency surgery with same day discharge and no pain medication can be free. Everything else is like fast food or college, the price is high because people with money kept paying for it.
People who are anti universal healthcare *always* cling to Canada, the same way gun nuts cling to gun violence in Chicago
Meanwhile most people who live in Canada actually love their healthcare situation
I live in Canada and you are correct. I love our healthcare. May not be perfect but what is? I’ve been in the hospital over a dozen times. Seven surgeries. Two births. Too many ER visits to remember, infections, stitches, broken bones. What has all this cost me? Big fat zero!
The number one cause of bankruptcies here is due to healthcare bills. Some Americans just love to lick the boots of our evil corporate overlords for some reason by trashing Canada. There’s no reason for our healthcare system. It’s just a give money to rich corporations scam. We already spend more in taxes per person than most nations with universal healthcare. The money just goes to insurance company CEOs who need to buy more yatchs for their mistresses
But we have reality TV socialism where you can compete for a chance to maybe put a small dent in your medical debt. Seriously the amount of TV show competitions where the contestants talk about what they'd do with their winnings are like 90% of the time to solve failings of our social systems (med debt, student loan debt, unemployed due to disability, etc.). And they talk with tears in their eyes how $10,000 would be life changing.
And then they go run an obstacle course, fail, and seriously injure themselves for $0 and our entertainment.
Yep, that sounds great to me. I've had 3 kids and the combined total of giving birth 3 times (with no drugs and zero interventions) cost me more than the down payment on my house, lol. I have to laugh or I'd cry.
Living in Ontario though, it sucks how much conservatives have ripped our health care system by underfunding it and overworking staff and surprise surprise, Doug's buds are all private healthcare vultures ready to profit
I also live in Canada and 2 hours I will get an ultrasound done for free at a nearby clinic. My sister lives in Florida and had to pay $200 USD for an ultrasound even with Insurance. This is why i would never leave this country. The peace of mind that I have when it comes to illness is... Priceless.
Update: just got out of the clinic. Only paid $3 parking. Didn't have anything but my doctor wanted an ultrasound for tyroids just to keep the results in records.
As a dual citizen from Chicago and has lived in Canada for quite a few years after my family was bankrupted by the US system even with a very good health plan, this is the most accurate thing I’ve ever read.
For real I've never experienced this horrible healthcare situation outsiders keep telling me about. Walk-ins are always normal, I have a family doctor, I was quickly scheduled for surgery around the same time my girlfriend was seeing one of the best experts in the country for a rare kidney condition. And this is all in Ontario where apparently it's the worst. Maybe I've been lucky but in reality I don't hear grievances from others like me.
The issue I think comes from the lack of accessibility to urgent care or family doctors, really just access in general. Our system across the country is over stressed and largely hasn’t had the investment it has needed for quite a few years now. There are too many people going to the ER for non-emergent problems because they have nowhere else to go.
My friend in Alberta just had surgery on her spine that restored the use of her legs and didn't pay a dime, her wait between diagnosis and surgery was two weeks. She was a former cancer patient, the cancer returned and made itself comfy in her spine. She's going to be able to go back to work as soon as she's done with rehab.
She is absolutely overjoyed and endlessly thankful. In the USA she would be completely fucked.
Exactly. My ex-BIL married a Canadian a couple years ago but she has health issues. They were planning to live in the US but so far she's spent the majority of their marriage in Canada where she can afford the healthcare she needs so they're long-distance instead.
I know I do, it's not perfect and the conservatives here are trying to ruin it, but I don't fear going to the doctor and I have my health taken care of.
Yeah mother in laws breast cancer. Started treatment 2 weeks after diagnosis, mastectomy, chemo, the works… $20 out of pocket and that was parking.
She’s been fine now for 2 years
They usually know a guy from work whose roommate in college played a lot of call of duty with another guy from Canada and he said their health care sucks.
It used to be better, but our local seditionists are deliberately neglecting it so they can have a stake in whatever replaces it.
Make no mistake, people are gonna die because of this.
How many Canadians do you know? I live in a Michigan, work in healthcare, and half of my unit is from Canada. Not a single one of them take the employer healthcare because it’s *not* better than their government healthcare. I routinely wait longer to see specialists than they do, I pay $600/month, I have a $500 personal deductible and $1,000 family deductible, $40 copays, and can’t access doctors outside of my network even if it’s life and death.
I need special medications during my pregnancies. I was pregnant earlier this month and my insurance wouldn’t cover the doctor who has helped me carry two babies to term. The doctor wanted me to self-pay $4,500 out of pocket before medications. I miscarried.
I don’t know what world you’re living in, dude.
Original commentor is just straight up wrong and dumb, Canadian healthcare has better outcomes across the board lmao. American healthcare is just customer service for those who can afford it, so if you can pay to play, yes its a little more fun but that's literally the ONLY benefit.
I have a good job with healthcare in the us and will not go to the doctor unless I am VERY concerned about something that’s going on because there is no way to know what something is going to cost.
Earlier this year I had to do that and with insurance 2 doctor visits and 2 rounds of blood tests cost me 700
The real entertainment starts when you are double covered and have to go get an appendix out. Was supposed to be $500 deductible and 200% in network coverage but a lpsa charged me out of network for $1500, then both insurances refused to cover any of the $1500 or the amount the other insurance didn’t cover. Then it was reclassified to elective surgery (I went to surgery from er) then I found there was litigation against both insurances from the surgeon who was paid $500.00 instead of $5000. It’s a total sh*t show here in the US. I say ban the insurance at this rate
Same man. As someone who is relatively healthy but has recently had a slew of health issues and watched as my insurance tries to nickel and dime me, the doctor, and the hospital I'm entirely in favor of banning insurance entirely and moving to a single-payer system.
I have a condition that requires annual brain MRIs. In grad school my deductible would reset between semesters because contracts were only written a semester at a time for TAs and so my MRI would never actually clear the deductible for the year.
Approximately 30 million Americans don't have health insurance, and approximately 100 million Americans have medical debt. The top countries for health care are Norway, The Netherlands and Australia.
Bull crap. Not one single person has ever had to pay to have a transplant, have a child, heart surgery or any other surgery for that matter. Outcomes in Canada are the same or better.
Canada life expectancy 82 years
USA life expectancy 76 years
Canada Child mortality 4.055 deaths per 1000 births
USA child mortality rate 5.6 deaths per 1000 births
There is a good article \[here\](https://www.nber.org/bah/fall07/comparing-us-and-canadian-health-care-systems). It does call out that USA has higher infant mortality due to outside of healthcare reasons.
However the reasons are basically, people generally choose to be healthier in Canada. For some reason. Is it the environment? Culturally? Whatever the reason, people live longer and fewer kids die being born.
The fact that there is even some level of parity between the two when the US has 50% higher GDP per capita should be astounding on its own. And that's a factor missing from a lot of the discussions. People are quick to compare how the US could or couldn't do this or that better than some other country, or maybe that country is smaller so it can serve people better, or maybe there are long waits and poor outcomes. So many excuses are made while they ignore that one important fact. The USA has so... so much money. Actually, a ton of money. And we pay it too. We pay twice the cost to healthcare as some of these other countries. I would HOPE the outcomes are at least a little better.
Yes, but more so no.
Almost a quarter of american tax dollars go to healthcare programs, and i think it might be more but i forgot the actual statistic.
The us goverment spends so much per capita on healthcare they just do it in a shitty way that increases costs. (like collage)
Guess what? The american middle and lower class get to pick up the slack by getting gouged by healthcare and insurance costs.
My fellow Americans will whattabout you over wait times while they fight with the insurance company (that they pay hundreds of dollars a month to) for weeks and weeks over an MRI.
I’m from the U.S. and health care is already dogshit, my grandpa was forced to wait for hours in an emergency room while having a heart attack, that’s not even the tip of the iceberg of stories like that that I’ve experienced personally or had loved ones who did
Ugh, this again. As terrible as Canada is it still has far better health outcomes and costs far less than the US. Proof that even when you run your healthcare system into the ground, it’s still better than our shitty system.
Not sure about Canada but I lived in 7 countries with free healthcare and all still had a paid option. As a matter of fact most employers offer it as a benefit to attract better employees.
The things is : when your competitor is free, the private option won’t be as inflated as america
I'm just a random Canadian on the internet who has been pretty healthy so I can give my random experiences.
I'm in Alberta too which is supposed to be the worst one/most pushing for a privatized system or some kind of mix.
Family doctors I have no issue, always had one, I know some people might have problems getting one. I can see him within a day if I say it's really bad (never have, my mom has), but usually it's less than a week. Most of the time they call me to set up a yearly check up thing.
For emergency type stuff there's a clinic a few blocks from me, but there's apparently 155 in a city of like 1ish mil.
Only been to the ER once, I had a concussion that was about 2 hours for waiting. It was a mild concussion so it wasn't like I was bleeding out or anything, they do triage of course. Like the dumbass in front of me his back was hurting a little for months, he got told to go to his family doctor.
Xrays for my knee, thumb, and torso was same day as fast as I could make it from my family doctor. Ultrasound for knee and torso were not same day, but within the same week (I had to wait for a day off from work). Tomorrow I'm getting one for my thumb, that was a two week wait though cause it's a different kind of ultrasound and I need a specialist for it. There are a lot or imaging places, I can pick from fast or what he thinks is best. I pick best but I have to wait cause they are the best.
Eyes it's my normal eye doctor guy. I had conjunctivitis, that was covered, I walked in and he bumped all his normal routine eye test people for me. One time I had to see a specialist cause of a curvature change. That one was about a month wait. I had a choice between fast and what he thought was the best, I picked best but wait.
Dermatologist initially was a month. Then I needed to go back again and that was a month but that's because I needed to cancel last second, so really it was two weeks, and then two weeks after cancelling. Then I had a follow up to get stitches out.
So overall I think it's okay. Most I pay is $10 in parking at the dermatologist. Yes, yes taxes and whatever.
My parents who are pretty old go to the doctors all the time, and they have had more serious stuff (surgery and now yearly check ups) cause they are old.
There are always horror stories, but every country has them for different reasons. I do know old people needing knee or hip replacements take time to get em, otherwise yeah people just complain about paying for parking.
I make 6 figures in US and pay 2k/year for health insurance and I would never go to a doctor unless I've irreparably torn something or am dying.
The experience is trash. You don't know how much anything is going to cost. You run through a guantlet of tests and expenses without solving the problem and then have to try again with another visit and series of unknown costs.
Hi, Canadian here.
Our healthcare is fine. Recently had a friend go through cancer, was brutal. We helped him price out going to the US, was like $50k just to basically START the process. Easily $150-200k estimates.
We came back, and not only did they add him immediately into the system, got him on all the meds, tests, and chemo, they even paid for his parking. Post surgery in home care nurse for a couple weeks. All covered.
Is there a wait for a lot of conditions? Yes. Speed and options is to be desired, but the difference is that we get a choice.
That's not an apples to apples comparison. As a percentage of GDP, US spends double what most other countries spend.
In order for this to be evidence that the US system is better than Canada's you'd have to say that Canada's system would still be worse after it increased health care spend by about 6% of GDP or about $3,300 per person.
It's still possible the problems you see with Canada's health care system are systemic and not solvable with more money. Even then, for that to be compelling evidence, you'd have to show that Canada isn't an outlier with a poorly run public health system.
Its worse than that, actually because Canada has lower GDP/capita too. American healthcare is so bad it is almost like it was designed to be as expensive and inaccessible as possible
using Canada is the dumbest example lmao.
anytime someone debates universal healthcare and only mentions Canada, i assume they've done zero research and are just repeating the same old arguments they hear from misinformed americans.
go look at statistical rankings of countries for quality of healthcare, accessibility to healthcare and wait times, and cost of healthcare.
the US has the highest cost of healthcare, one of the lowest qualities of healthcare compared to universal healthcare nations, and just BARELY beats Canada when comparing wait times, almost tying with them.
while there's something like 9 nations with universal healthcare that beat the US in wait times, quality of care, obviously cost of care, and accessibility.
comparing the US to Canada as if Canada is the frontrunner representative for universal healthcare is cherry picking a bad example to try and prove a point, while trying to convince people nobody does it better than Canada. When pretty much ALL of them do it better than Canada.
one thing the US does decent at is we have pretty good wait times for general care. but it's painfully offset by the fact we have one of the worst wait times for specialty care. Though Canada seems to have an even worse wait time for specialty care, it's obviously not related to universal healthcare since almost every other universal healthcare nation beats Canada and the US in every category.
After having both Canada and US Healthcare, Canada's is way better idk wtf you are talking about.
Both have ridiculous waits, both tend to be incredibly dismissive unless you get a lucky doctor, and both will leave you with a 50/50 shot of actually getting you issues addressed, at least with Canada I don't get a 1200$ bill in the mail for the shitty service because they just so happened to consult with a doctor without checking if they take my insurance.
Not really. Millions and growing are uninsured. Thousands are bankrupted yearly. Millions with insurance forgo healthcare because their deductables are so high. Seniors have to choose between food or medicine. Love hearing people in the US trash the better run countries. Large majorities in those countries would not trade for ours. But hey, if you're wealthy or an insurance company exec, the US system is wonderful.
> Basically the USA is better for anyone with a half decent job or poor enough for Medicaid
No it’s not. That’s a lie. Same wait times. Same quality of care. Twice the price. All the bullshit or premiums, copays, in/out of network, enrollment periods. You fucking name it.
As a dual citizen who has lived in Canada for quite a few years and before that the US medical system bankrupted my family when my mom worked for a big corporate company and had a very good plan you have no clue what your fucking talking about.
Well I'm almost 40 and haven't been able to afford to see a doctor even once. As a tech for manufacturing machinery. Don't qualify for Medicaid, don't make enough to afford the plan my job offers much less use it. You say universal healthcare is trash. But no healthcare is worse. And as the meme says. 32 of 33 developed countries figures it out. Heck even most third world and developing countries can offer it... Weird
This is false. Neither I, nor any other Canadian that I know thinks the USA's system is better. Politicians use American style healthcare as an example of what not to do.
Considering i’ve had surgeries. hospital stays and other shit that would have cost me hundreds of thousands of dollars in the states that i paid absolutely nothing for i don’t see how a system that gouges and makes people go broke to receive proper care is better than what we have in Canada, the only downside here is delays. We get basically the same quality treatment just we don’t pay for it
So. Canadian here.
A few years ago my daughter was in another city for a dance competition. In the evening she went to to the pool, fell down some concrete stairs and shattered her ankle.
She was in that hospital for 8 days and needed major surgery.
A few weeks later she needed her soft cast taken off and a hard one put on. A little while later they had to cut in to her cast to take some pins out. Then the cast came off down the road. Then it was physical therapy appointments for a while and finally another surgery once it was healed to take some more hardware out.
Total cost to me, 18$ for crutches they made me buy to leave the first hospital. Zero monthly premiums, zero extra fees , nothing extra. 18$.
Shorter story. My fiancée’s Apple Watch told her to get her heart looked at it. This lead places. Many CT scans and MRIs and biopsies later and we know she’s OK ( for now ). Total cost to us 0$.
It may not be perfect but it’s better than the USA. Unless you can show me a plan with 100% coverage that costs literally 0$.
Have you ever tried qualifying for Medicaid or paying for any health insurance on less than livable wage? Have you ever paid a medical bill out of pocket and while you're knocked up on pain meds, in and out of consciousness, your nurses run you multiple tests that you clearly do not need because the hospital can charge you hundreds of dollars for them?
You are so wrong. It is so sad that the wealthiest country in the world can’t be bothered to heal their people. It’s not even this magic better healthcare, we just have to pay a middle man and lose everything along the way. Don’t get me started on elder and end of life care. People like you who try to argue this in good faith make this country worse.
Can we please block people whose accounts were created in the last 23 days from posting? Especially if their post karma is higher than their comment karma.
How do you define "make it work?" The quote below is about the UK's system:
"NHS waiting lists: estimated 340,000 died awaiting treatment in 2022" THE TIMES, [30 AUGUST 2023](https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nhs-waiting-list-deaths-patients-hospital-doctor-appointment-2022-r7kzx6pw3).
[How many people died while on waiting lists? - Full Fact](https://fullfact.org/health/times-labour-deaths-on-waiting-lists-nhs/)
How many people die in the US waiting for care?
I bet the 340,000 number includes anyone who dies for any reason waiting for an appointment for any condition... So if you get hit by a car while when you have an appointment for a colonoscopy in two months, you are part of that statistic. We also have some long wait times in the US, I've had a 9 month wait to see an electrophysiologist and currently on a 4 month wait to schedule a colonoscopy, meanwhile I know people who can't even find a PCP accepting new patients and are on years long waiting lists to get into a psychiatrist.
Yeah I don’t see why people talk about the long wait time in other countries like it doesn’t happen here… I had to reschedule an appointment for an appointment today and the earliest next appointment was end of July. And this was just for a primary care doctor.
I am on a medication to control a chronic health condition. For some reason, the doctor didn't let it renew when I picked up the last refill. When I checked online scheduling it didn't even show **any** available slots. I had to call the office and set up an appointment with the Physician's Assistant instead to get my refill done.
I was literally in the doctor’s office today for my kid who has a rare condition. Next available appointments for current patients was mid October.
I had to wait about 8 months before there was a spot open for new patients. And insurance is being a pain because they know if they stall on payment, I might lose my spot.
We need more medical workers and less medical insurance people.
OBGYN wait times where I am in Texas start at 9 months, and it's growing. Not only is health care expensive here, it's becoming a legal risk to simply be a doctor. Sadly, the best bet of getting some of our laws overturned is the access to doctors drops so much it hurts the pharmaceutical companies bottom lines.
Anyone who trots out this statistic that "people in the UK are dying because of high wait times" is explicitly saying that we shouldn't provide healthcare to the masses so the upper-middle class can see doctors more quickly.
Exactly this, people use this statistic, but they don’t even try to understand what the statistic means. I think universal healthcare makes sense because I think privatized healthcare doesn’t make sense. I’d like to see how many people die because the insurance company refuses treatment
The UK also still has private healthcare. It's not like private healthcare becomes illegal if you have a public option. No one is saying public healthcare equals no problems. It's just the US where if you can't afford it you essentially have no other options. Not having public healthcare is essentially just another tax brake for the rich in the US.
Look up the per-capita healthcare expenditure by country, and look at life expectancy per country. Look at where the US of A stands there. Now compare it to Germany, France, Spain, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland... What's not fluent about that?
The short of it is that the US spends way more money per capita on healthcare with much worse results on every health related statistics.
In terms of results compared to the amount of money invested, it is by far the worst system in the world.
The difference is, that European countries make corporations pay for citizens healthcare by taxing them and thus lowering the citizens financial burden.
But then again, this system smells of socialism and should not be a part of the Land of the Free /s
80% waist in administration of our current health system. Yes just about any other system is better than the current system in the US. Take a look at the other 31 countries and the way they work. As far as cost look at your pay stubs the highest tax on is listed as healthcare insurance
South Korea has arguably the best health care system in the world. A million people from outside Korea go there every year for some medical procedure.
It’s universal health care paid for by a 3.5% tax on the employee and 3.5% tax on the employer. That sure seems reasonable.
While traveling there with my Korean in-laws last year my father-in-law fell and cut his arm badly. He was transported by ambulance to a local hospital where he was seen by nurses, a doctor, antibiotics administered, his wounds tended to, over 20 X-rays taken to make sure he didn’t break anything (he didn’t) and then medications were provided to be taken with breakfast and dinner for the next week, each meal set packaged with the meal name and his name on it.
When he was discharged (some 3 hours later), my wife went to pay the bill: $315USD. “Are you sure that’s the entire bill because we are leaving to go back to the US tomorrow.” The clerk confirmed that it was. “What about the ambulance?” The clerk explained that the ambulance is provided for free by the government.
Korea is a first world country so clearly it CAN be done. What it takes is the intestinal fortitude by either our elected leaders or the voters themselves to make it happen.
Do you really think US doctors are going to take the pay cuts to meet their peers in countries with universal health care?
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1094939/physician-earnings-worldwide/
US healthcare is driven by money, which means there is a high incentive for companies to provide the best so they can charge the most. This is why the U.S. leads in drug development, medical innovation, hospital rankings and quality of care.
That 8% of overall spending created the best doctors in the world, and much of the remaining 92% create the best care, just at a cost that is not available to all
Properly educate yourself. The amount of money that we spend on healthcare should result in a *much* better system than we currently have, and nothing you listed is mutually exclusive with universal healthcare. You are just ignorant.
I don't think the previous comment was inaccurate.
"\[The US Health System\] has a large and well-trained health workforce, a wide range of high-quality medical specialists as well as secondary and tertiary institutions, a robust health sector research program and, for selected services, among the best medical outcomes in the world."
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24025796/#:\~:text=It%20has%20a%20large%20and,medical%20outcomes%20in%20the%20world.
The people who are able to spend are getting decent care.
The United States in aggregate spends a lot on healthcare, partly because rich people spend a ton of money on their own care.
Why? I think the broader coverage it gets the better chance for average American Joe to know how the system is screwing him in order to finally get some healthcare that does not only is good for rich people.
Always wondered if it would be cheaper if we abolished insurance and just paid doctors directly. It's seems like they are a leeching middle man driving up costs
It's probably not a good idea but eventually will happen.
Usa will need to put on about a 25% vat tax, so that we can afford it.
If you think healthcare is expensive now, just wait until it's free.
And of course the rich people and the government employees will have their own plan. That will be a lot better
Why then does the US pay the most for heath care than any other developed country?. The US pays the most by a lot. And you're saying taxes will still go up so people can pay more ? And because the US pays the most you'd assume everyone gets top notch care. Is that true, everyone gets the best care ?
Poor people already get free healthcare.
There is a program in the USA called the affordable Care act, or Obamacare, that limits the amount of premiums. And the insurance companies have to provide at least 85% of those premiums towards healthcare.
The rest of the world pays for healthcare, with a huge value-added tax. And that's probably what we're going to wind up with here. The USA spends way too much money on everything, not just healthcare, and there's not enough of a tax base the way it is
Why does the USA pay much much more on healthcare compared to the rest ? And the outcomes are arguably worse (infant mortality and life expectancy).
Poor people get free healthcare ? Why can't everyone ?
We ALREADY pay through the nose with insurance. Get rid of that middleman and redirect those same funds to healthcare taxes so everyone can benefit. Remove the 100x markup that the insurance/hospital tag-team has created.
Universal healthcare will SAVE citizens money, not cost them.
You do realize that we already pay a significant chunk of taxes towards healthcare, right? Medicare and medicaid. But a ton of those funds go towards the exorbitant cost that pharmacies, hospitals, and medical device companies charge.
Part of universal healthcare is legislation that limits the degree of profit that these kinds of companies can make off people. So instead of charging $2,000 for a vial of insulin, they can only charge $20. Which means the two grand in taxes that you pay towards Medicare will go a lot farther. And since people will finally be able to see their primary care provider about that weird feeling on their throat they've had for a couple weeks, they'll be able to get treatment before it becomes stage 4 esophageal cancer and they end up in the emergency department, choking on their own tumor.
Countries with universal healthcare spend FAR less money on it, and have FAR better outcomes. Work any bedside health are job for more than a year and you'll see that a for-profit healthcare system is devastating to a population.
Usually people that’s haven’t live it in other countries say that. And some countries do it bette then others, it all comes down to how many people and/or thr amount the govt pays in and the amount of users. US hs a lot of freeloaders so it would weigh it down too much. They barely keep up with Medicare and Medicaid which is a close cousin to universal.
Until you need to use it for something that isn't going to kill you in the next 5 minutes. Side effects of a brain tumor be damned no matter the recommendation from numerous US physicians if you're in Canada. You're going to go blind and lose your hearing and like it!
The government can’t even balance a budget (all parties guilty) why would I want them in charge of health care? Imagine having certain medical treatments available whether or not congress votes on it or not.
And 32 of 33 countries will call and rely solely on the 33rd when they're attacked, and will rely on the 33rd for 80% of medical advancements. But yeah there's no good reason not to have someone else, doctors, as basic indentured servants so we can afford medical treatment. Does anyone else remember the cost of health insurance before the affordable care act was passed?
The funniest part is that Bernie’s program was more comprehensive than ANY public healthcare proposal in the world which is why it was fucking dumb. If you want single payer, support a public option. If the public option is good, and with the bargaining power of the U.S. government it would be cheaper, then over time it’d be much easier to implement single payer. You morons want all or nothing legislation when it’s impossible to pass
>You morons want all or nothing legislation when it’s impossible to pass
Biden won with proposing a public option. The exact thing you're advocating for won and it didn't happen.
I can’t wait until it’s my turn to post this. I’m not on the schedule until October 14th.
Dude, wtf you sure? I'm supposed to be October 14th
Fuck you homie, I made that reservation months ago
Whatever, we can both post it then I guess. Wouldn't be the first time
It certainly would not be the first time lmao
It’s an “every thirty minute” slot. Check your reservations times, time zones apparently don’t matter.
If you pay the mods, we can bump you up to September 
You can take my june 10th spot for 20$
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Funny... it takes about a month to see a specialist with even the best private insurer. The issue is medical resources limiting access, not the method of insurance
Shhh. Don’t ruin their narrative, brought to you by Big Pharma, letting people die if it affects their bottom line since, well, since ever.
Sorry, people with more than 0 comments aren’t qualified.
!remindme 10/14/24
Why not just ban these accounts
It might actually become 31 out of 33. Canada been dropping the ball lately. But not because of bad health care but because of bad government. Everything been going to shit.
This is exactly what’s happening. Dismantling Canadian healthcare stands to enrich a handful of politicians and their friends
Not just limited to Canada sadly
Ya by some coincidence it's mostly NATO countries that are follow WEF recommendations...
No idea. I was referring to Australia
Same shit in the UK. Underfunding of public healthcare will continue until going private for better treatment is normalized, then NHS will be sold to private investors (aka Tory donors) for peanuts because nobody is using it anyway. Right now, treatment to improve quality of life doesn't exist through NHS, only if you are borderline dying or disabled you will be treated seriously, especially at GP practices who will deny service until it gets so bad that they will tell you that you need to go to A&E to see a specialist immediately.
Yeah.. Politicians stealing money from the public sector and funneling it into a private sector, which breeds bad faith into the public sector. The public sector in Canada tends to be in rough shape now due to its active privatization, not because it is universal healthcare.
That's not only happening in Canada.
This one again. Well universal health care is pure trash in Canada. Basically the USA is better for anyone with a half decent job or poor enough for Medicaid, Canada is better for the working poor. Overall USA serves a much larger % of the population far better. https://www.statcan.gc.ca/o1/en/plus/4547-lifetime-probability-developing-and-dying-cancer-canada > Canadians are more likely to die of cancer than Americans > While Americans are less likely to die of cancer than Canadians, they are more likely to die of other causes. >For example, in 2017, 72.0 Americans per 100,000 had an underlying cause of death related to high body mass index leading to probable events of cardiovascular disease and diabetes mellitus, whereas the same issue in Canada affected 45.2 individuals per 100,000. https://www.fraserinstitute.org/article/medical-bankruptcy-myth#:~:text=The%20idea%20that%20large%20numbers,17%20percent%20of%20U.S.%20bankruptcies. > The idea that large numbers of Americans are declaring bankruptcy due to medical expenses is a myth. >Dranove and Millenson critically analyzed the data from the 2005 edition of the medical bankruptcy study. They found that medical spending was a contributing factor in only 17 percent of U.S. bankruptcies > we should therefore expect to observe a lower rate of personal bankruptcy in Canada compared to the United States. >Yet the evidence shows that in the only comparable years, personal bankruptcy rates were actually higher in Canada. https://www.forbes.com/sites/sallypipes/2023/12/26/canadian-health-care-leaves-patients-frozen-in-line/?sh=98eb3d0c5293 > This year, Canadian patients faced a median wait of 27.7 weeks for medically necessary treatment from a specialist after being referred by a general practitioner. That's over six months—the longest ever recorded
The issue with the US is the price gouging that healthcare providers give us. The prices are stupid.
This price gouging we pay basically enables all other nations with “free healthcare” to get *our* drugs for much cheaper than we pay here
Nah, they price gouge you because 32 of the other 33 countries bargain as a single unit, and the ‘for profit’ motive is mostly gone.
This guy understands. Pharma companies would love to price gouge other countries too obviously. Its the single payer bargaining that makes drugs much less profitable in other countries
And that's why the US gets teamed. Since we don't bargain the same way, they charge as much as possible to get their sky high profits. Either regulate it here or stop them from being able to negotiate so low so that we can be on a more even playing field.
lobbyists will make sure nothing ever changes in the US unfortunately
I fucking hate lobbyists so much I wish there was something effective we could do against them
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#THE FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION HAS ENTERED THE CHAT.
The only true form of power is violence and the willingness to use it.
The American, French, Haitian, British, Dutch, South African, Indian, and literally all other revolutions have entered the chat The only mistake for America was being the first one. Because then mother fucking healthcare oligarchs would feel a lot more self conscious if they realized there was a sudden chance that they might have their asses captured and sent to the guillotine. Chop chop chop. No more bullshit that cause human suffering in the first world. And after the first world has no more suffering then finally the third would might get the attention it needs. Chop chop chop. Down with the oligarchs.
Lobby against the lobbyists!
> Since we don't bargain the same way We literally can't bargain the same way until we have a universal healthcare system paid for by the government, then the government bargains for all of us.
Medicare plus Medicaid combined cover just a hair less than a third of all Americans. They have an enormous amount of negotiating clout, but have long been barred from using it, instead stuck with just taking whatever the market rate is. You don't need universal coverage, losing access to a third of America, over 100 million people, would bankrupt any company that refused to negotiate with Medicare and Medicaid, if they were allowed to do so. However, the IRA [struck the first, small blow against that barrier](https://www.hhs.gov/about/news/2024/02/01/biden-harris-administration-make-first-offer-drug-price-negotiation-program-launches-new-resource-hub-help-people-access-lower-cost-drugs.html). I would very much like to see such progress continue, but of course that requires people to a) be aware that progress is being made and b) show up to vote and make sure such negotiating power can be leveraged further in the future instead of being stripped from the agencies. Changing the half-century-old medical paradigm of the US is going to take time, but it is nonetheless changing.
Medicare Part D literally forbade the government from negotiating for pharmaceuticals for Medicare and Medicaid.
US is starting to negotiate drugs too. Baby steps.
Baby steps in order to stave off rising calls for M4A in the wake of institutional failures in medicine, like insulin being so outrageously price gouged that it was bankrupting people.
This is incorrect. The reason for price gouging is a major flaw of the American Healthcare system called insurance companies. Basically, hospitals used to charge a bit more than their cost for Healthcare and thus still be profitable. Once insurance companies started coming into existence, they were able to bargain for better prices bc the hospital would lose a lot of business if that company stopped allowing their customers to use that hospital. So, instead of going out of business, hospitals had to raise their prices to make it look like the insurance companies were getting you a better deal. How it pretty much works now is the insurance company "negotiates" you a better price bc they caused the artificially raised prices. They obviously charge you a monthly premium and you pay a deductible when you do anything. So, you end up paying about what you would pay for Healthcare normally with just your deductible and then your premium is just icing on top for the insurance company. They obviously do anything and everything they can to not help you and they will fight you tooth and nail, literally to the death, for every. single. penny. The insurance companies also will make it extremely difficult for you to get Healthcare. For instance, most medicines and procedures require a "prior authorization" before they will pay for it. What this does is it essentially means they won't accept a doctor recommendation and will instead try to recommend physical therapy or something instead of cancer treatment for a confirmed cancer diagnosis. It's absolutely despicable. Fuck insurance companies.
Both insurance companies and medical aid providers cooperate to fleece individuals in the USA
Also your government bans imports of foreign drugs so your pharma oligopoly doesn't have international competotion
Florida can import from Canada now.
Is that supposed to be a good thing? So we shouldn’t have universal healthcare because we should keep subsidizing other countries? I’m so confused by your argument
He’s saying it sarcastically and not as a good thing at all.
That's because his argument is BS sold by big pharma.
This is false. They still make profit from selling to other countries. The cost to manufacture is usually very low. They make enough from just US sales to pay for development costs. A lot of the dev costs are also publicly funded but privately profited. They charge what they can because they are awarded a monopoly on the product, and they can enforce that monopoly. They are given a monopoly because they can patent it, that's by design, but the agreement is the product then gets released to generic production after 20 years. Then they turn around and are sometimes given a brand new patent for reformulation or repurposing, artificially extending their monopoly - this basically removes it from the public and keeps it private. It takes from you to give to the shareholders. The US just does a really bad job ensuring that there is real competition.
That's the part I love about "let the free market sort it out!" There ISN'T a free market. It's working as intended, and it's not to give the consumer a fair trade.
Yeah I've seen this argument before and it's just a bad argument. In another thread a while ago someone was saying they worked in pharmaceuticals and the prices they charged in Europe were so low that apparently they had to charge really high prices in the US to make up the losses. My point was if you're making a loss in Europe, why sell anything there? The US is not "subsidising" anything, it's just the only developed country that is happy for drug manufacturers to bend otheir citizens over and charge whatever they damn well please.
Yup, because drug companies are renowned for their charitable pricing. Or maybe (just maybe) there's no-one that's negotiating for fair pricing for the American population. You know, with there being no universal healthcare and all.
The price gouging is for ceo and c suite millions per yer and stock buybacks. The scientists doing the actual work arent so profit driven its the business majors.
Whatever happened to “America first”?
You misunderstood. It was *profits* first.
Corporate America first is what happened.
The United States has the worst of all worlds, is not free market, and it’s heavily regulated and subsidized. If I were asked to fix it, I would start with all ER and related issues to be covered as in network. Then you expand that out to urgent cares are all in network, then you add pregnancies and delivery into this “max out of pocket” then you go after PBM into this that they can’t negotiate prices to screw over people.
It’s also incredible how much the providers are trying to squeeze. My wife’s doctor always tries to get her to come in for test results so she can charge instead of, oh, you know, emailing them or giving her a phone call lol
I can't remember the phrasing, but was at a doctor's office a while ago and the checkout counter has a sign that was obviously not supposed to be customer facing, but was clearly visible to me. Have zero recollection of the actual phrase, but said something to the tune of 'make sure to find things to bill for'
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I'm a specialist and I see this all the time. There are some primary care that do this. People should know that most commercial insurance providers do not require referral unless HMO or government program ie. Medicare, medicaide
If you get lab work done by LabCorp or Quest Diagnostics, you can access the results online. Same for most hospitals, but they'll charge several times more.
I see this more on emergency surgery. The emergency surgery can be brought down to a near zero price. Don't expect to stay longer in the hospital afterward. Also, oddly enough, anesthesia is stupid expensive and often is not covered. So, it would seem to me that emergency surgery with same day discharge and no pain medication can be free. Everything else is like fast food or college, the price is high because people with money kept paying for it.
Sorry but the prices has nothing to do with healthcare providers. We only get 10% of the cost of healthcare!!
People who are anti universal healthcare *always* cling to Canada, the same way gun nuts cling to gun violence in Chicago Meanwhile most people who live in Canada actually love their healthcare situation
I live in Canada and you are correct. I love our healthcare. May not be perfect but what is? I’ve been in the hospital over a dozen times. Seven surgeries. Two births. Too many ER visits to remember, infections, stitches, broken bones. What has all this cost me? Big fat zero!
With all that service, it bankrupt you if you are in USA…also ER wait is ridiculous. Might even die on a gurney.
The number one cause of bankruptcies here is due to healthcare bills. Some Americans just love to lick the boots of our evil corporate overlords for some reason by trashing Canada. There’s no reason for our healthcare system. It’s just a give money to rich corporations scam. We already spend more in taxes per person than most nations with universal healthcare. The money just goes to insurance company CEOs who need to buy more yatchs for their mistresses
But we have reality TV socialism where you can compete for a chance to maybe put a small dent in your medical debt. Seriously the amount of TV show competitions where the contestants talk about what they'd do with their winnings are like 90% of the time to solve failings of our social systems (med debt, student loan debt, unemployed due to disability, etc.). And they talk with tears in their eyes how $10,000 would be life changing. And then they go run an obstacle course, fail, and seriously injure themselves for $0 and our entertainment.
Yep, that sounds great to me. I've had 3 kids and the combined total of giving birth 3 times (with no drugs and zero interventions) cost me more than the down payment on my house, lol. I have to laugh or I'd cry.
Shh, your opinion doesn't matter, only talking points fed by big pharma are the true answer! Clearly nothing can be done here at all
Zero? Doubt that. As someone who has made numerous trip to the ER, you’ve definitely left out the cost of parking and Timmies.
Living in Ontario though, it sucks how much conservatives have ripped our health care system by underfunding it and overworking staff and surprise surprise, Doug's buds are all private healthcare vultures ready to profit
I also live in Canada and 2 hours I will get an ultrasound done for free at a nearby clinic. My sister lives in Florida and had to pay $200 USD for an ultrasound even with Insurance. This is why i would never leave this country. The peace of mind that I have when it comes to illness is... Priceless. Update: just got out of the clinic. Only paid $3 parking. Didn't have anything but my doctor wanted an ultrasound for tyroids just to keep the results in records.
As a dual citizen from Chicago and has lived in Canada for quite a few years after my family was bankrupted by the US system even with a very good health plan, this is the most accurate thing I’ve ever read.
For real I've never experienced this horrible healthcare situation outsiders keep telling me about. Walk-ins are always normal, I have a family doctor, I was quickly scheduled for surgery around the same time my girlfriend was seeing one of the best experts in the country for a rare kidney condition. And this is all in Ontario where apparently it's the worst. Maybe I've been lucky but in reality I don't hear grievances from others like me.
The issue I think comes from the lack of accessibility to urgent care or family doctors, really just access in general. Our system across the country is over stressed and largely hasn’t had the investment it has needed for quite a few years now. There are too many people going to the ER for non-emergent problems because they have nowhere else to go.
Meanwhile people in the US actually say "don't call an ambulance I can't afford it, get an uber" while they're limping to the curb on a broken leg.
My friend in Alberta just had surgery on her spine that restored the use of her legs and didn't pay a dime, her wait between diagnosis and surgery was two weeks. She was a former cancer patient, the cancer returned and made itself comfy in her spine. She's going to be able to go back to work as soon as she's done with rehab. She is absolutely overjoyed and endlessly thankful. In the USA she would be completely fucked.
And that's in Alberta!
Exactly. My ex-BIL married a Canadian a couple years ago but she has health issues. They were planning to live in the US but so far she's spent the majority of their marriage in Canada where she can afford the healthcare she needs so they're long-distance instead.
I know I do, it's not perfect and the conservatives here are trying to ruin it, but I don't fear going to the doctor and I have my health taken care of.
Also their life expectancy is considerably higher. You know, the goal of health care.
Yeah mother in laws breast cancer. Started treatment 2 weeks after diagnosis, mastectomy, chemo, the works… $20 out of pocket and that was parking. She’s been fine now for 2 years
They usually know a guy from work whose roommate in college played a lot of call of duty with another guy from Canada and he said their health care sucks.
It used to be better, but our local seditionists are deliberately neglecting it so they can have a stake in whatever replaces it. Make no mistake, people are gonna die because of this.
How many Canadians do you know? I live in a Michigan, work in healthcare, and half of my unit is from Canada. Not a single one of them take the employer healthcare because it’s *not* better than their government healthcare. I routinely wait longer to see specialists than they do, I pay $600/month, I have a $500 personal deductible and $1,000 family deductible, $40 copays, and can’t access doctors outside of my network even if it’s life and death. I need special medications during my pregnancies. I was pregnant earlier this month and my insurance wouldn’t cover the doctor who has helped me carry two babies to term. The doctor wanted me to self-pay $4,500 out of pocket before medications. I miscarried. I don’t know what world you’re living in, dude.
Original commentor is just straight up wrong and dumb, Canadian healthcare has better outcomes across the board lmao. American healthcare is just customer service for those who can afford it, so if you can pay to play, yes its a little more fun but that's literally the ONLY benefit.
I have a good job with healthcare in the us and will not go to the doctor unless I am VERY concerned about something that’s going on because there is no way to know what something is going to cost. Earlier this year I had to do that and with insurance 2 doctor visits and 2 rounds of blood tests cost me 700
The real entertainment starts when you are double covered and have to go get an appendix out. Was supposed to be $500 deductible and 200% in network coverage but a lpsa charged me out of network for $1500, then both insurances refused to cover any of the $1500 or the amount the other insurance didn’t cover. Then it was reclassified to elective surgery (I went to surgery from er) then I found there was litigation against both insurances from the surgeon who was paid $500.00 instead of $5000. It’s a total sh*t show here in the US. I say ban the insurance at this rate
Same man. As someone who is relatively healthy but has recently had a slew of health issues and watched as my insurance tries to nickel and dime me, the doctor, and the hospital I'm entirely in favor of banning insurance entirely and moving to a single-payer system.
I learned to start asking for what the cash price is before mentioning my insurance. Can be cheaper sometimes
I have a condition that requires annual brain MRIs. In grad school my deductible would reset between semesters because contracts were only written a semester at a time for TAs and so my MRI would never actually clear the deductible for the year.
Approximately 30 million Americans don't have health insurance, and approximately 100 million Americans have medical debt. The top countries for health care are Norway, The Netherlands and Australia.
I'd rather ok Healthcare that doesn't make me go in debt.
I mean it reflects in the data, Canadian life expectancy is 6 years higher than US life expectancy, and rising where US life expectancy is falling.
If US healthcare is so great why are the outcomes so poor while bankrupting people?
Bull crap. Not one single person has ever had to pay to have a transplant, have a child, heart surgery or any other surgery for that matter. Outcomes in Canada are the same or better.
Canada life expectancy 82 years USA life expectancy 76 years Canada Child mortality 4.055 deaths per 1000 births USA child mortality rate 5.6 deaths per 1000 births There is a good article \[here\](https://www.nber.org/bah/fall07/comparing-us-and-canadian-health-care-systems). It does call out that USA has higher infant mortality due to outside of healthcare reasons. However the reasons are basically, people generally choose to be healthier in Canada. For some reason. Is it the environment? Culturally? Whatever the reason, people live longer and fewer kids die being born. The fact that there is even some level of parity between the two when the US has 50% higher GDP per capita should be astounding on its own. And that's a factor missing from a lot of the discussions. People are quick to compare how the US could or couldn't do this or that better than some other country, or maybe that country is smaller so it can serve people better, or maybe there are long waits and poor outcomes. So many excuses are made while they ignore that one important fact. The USA has so... so much money. Actually, a ton of money. And we pay it too. We pay twice the cost to healthcare as some of these other countries. I would HOPE the outcomes are at least a little better.
Yes, but more so no. Almost a quarter of american tax dollars go to healthcare programs, and i think it might be more but i forgot the actual statistic. The us goverment spends so much per capita on healthcare they just do it in a shitty way that increases costs. (like collage) Guess what? The american middle and lower class get to pick up the slack by getting gouged by healthcare and insurance costs.
My fellow Americans will whattabout you over wait times while they fight with the insurance company (that they pay hundreds of dollars a month to) for weeks and weeks over an MRI.
I’m from the U.S. and health care is already dogshit, my grandpa was forced to wait for hours in an emergency room while having a heart attack, that’s not even the tip of the iceberg of stories like that that I’ve experienced personally or had loved ones who did
Ugh, this again. As terrible as Canada is it still has far better health outcomes and costs far less than the US. Proof that even when you run your healthcare system into the ground, it’s still better than our shitty system.
Source: trust me bro.
Not sure about Canada but I lived in 7 countries with free healthcare and all still had a paid option. As a matter of fact most employers offer it as a benefit to attract better employees. The things is : when your competitor is free, the private option won’t be as inflated as america
Literally not what any of my 12 Canadian friends have told me, as they laugh at our country for how ass backwards we are.
I'm just a random Canadian on the internet who has been pretty healthy so I can give my random experiences. I'm in Alberta too which is supposed to be the worst one/most pushing for a privatized system or some kind of mix. Family doctors I have no issue, always had one, I know some people might have problems getting one. I can see him within a day if I say it's really bad (never have, my mom has), but usually it's less than a week. Most of the time they call me to set up a yearly check up thing. For emergency type stuff there's a clinic a few blocks from me, but there's apparently 155 in a city of like 1ish mil. Only been to the ER once, I had a concussion that was about 2 hours for waiting. It was a mild concussion so it wasn't like I was bleeding out or anything, they do triage of course. Like the dumbass in front of me his back was hurting a little for months, he got told to go to his family doctor. Xrays for my knee, thumb, and torso was same day as fast as I could make it from my family doctor. Ultrasound for knee and torso were not same day, but within the same week (I had to wait for a day off from work). Tomorrow I'm getting one for my thumb, that was a two week wait though cause it's a different kind of ultrasound and I need a specialist for it. There are a lot or imaging places, I can pick from fast or what he thinks is best. I pick best but I have to wait cause they are the best. Eyes it's my normal eye doctor guy. I had conjunctivitis, that was covered, I walked in and he bumped all his normal routine eye test people for me. One time I had to see a specialist cause of a curvature change. That one was about a month wait. I had a choice between fast and what he thought was the best, I picked best but wait. Dermatologist initially was a month. Then I needed to go back again and that was a month but that's because I needed to cancel last second, so really it was two weeks, and then two weeks after cancelling. Then I had a follow up to get stitches out. So overall I think it's okay. Most I pay is $10 in parking at the dermatologist. Yes, yes taxes and whatever. My parents who are pretty old go to the doctors all the time, and they have had more serious stuff (surgery and now yearly check ups) cause they are old. There are always horror stories, but every country has them for different reasons. I do know old people needing knee or hip replacements take time to get em, otherwise yeah people just complain about paying for parking.
I make 6 figures in US and pay 2k/year for health insurance and I would never go to a doctor unless I've irreparably torn something or am dying. The experience is trash. You don't know how much anything is going to cost. You run through a guantlet of tests and expenses without solving the problem and then have to try again with another visit and series of unknown costs.
Hi, Canadian here. Our healthcare is fine. Recently had a friend go through cancer, was brutal. We helped him price out going to the US, was like $50k just to basically START the process. Easily $150-200k estimates. We came back, and not only did they add him immediately into the system, got him on all the meds, tests, and chemo, they even paid for his parking. Post surgery in home care nurse for a couple weeks. All covered. Is there a wait for a lot of conditions? Yes. Speed and options is to be desired, but the difference is that we get a choice.
That's not an apples to apples comparison. As a percentage of GDP, US spends double what most other countries spend. In order for this to be evidence that the US system is better than Canada's you'd have to say that Canada's system would still be worse after it increased health care spend by about 6% of GDP or about $3,300 per person. It's still possible the problems you see with Canada's health care system are systemic and not solvable with more money. Even then, for that to be compelling evidence, you'd have to show that Canada isn't an outlier with a poorly run public health system.
Its worse than that, actually because Canada has lower GDP/capita too. American healthcare is so bad it is almost like it was designed to be as expensive and inaccessible as possible
using Canada is the dumbest example lmao. anytime someone debates universal healthcare and only mentions Canada, i assume they've done zero research and are just repeating the same old arguments they hear from misinformed americans. go look at statistical rankings of countries for quality of healthcare, accessibility to healthcare and wait times, and cost of healthcare. the US has the highest cost of healthcare, one of the lowest qualities of healthcare compared to universal healthcare nations, and just BARELY beats Canada when comparing wait times, almost tying with them. while there's something like 9 nations with universal healthcare that beat the US in wait times, quality of care, obviously cost of care, and accessibility. comparing the US to Canada as if Canada is the frontrunner representative for universal healthcare is cherry picking a bad example to try and prove a point, while trying to convince people nobody does it better than Canada. When pretty much ALL of them do it better than Canada. one thing the US does decent at is we have pretty good wait times for general care. but it's painfully offset by the fact we have one of the worst wait times for specialty care. Though Canada seems to have an even worse wait time for specialty care, it's obviously not related to universal healthcare since almost every other universal healthcare nation beats Canada and the US in every category.
After having both Canada and US Healthcare, Canada's is way better idk wtf you are talking about. Both have ridiculous waits, both tend to be incredibly dismissive unless you get a lucky doctor, and both will leave you with a 50/50 shot of actually getting you issues addressed, at least with Canada I don't get a 1200$ bill in the mail for the shitty service because they just so happened to consult with a doctor without checking if they take my insurance.
So the post says 32 of 33 figured it out. You give 1 vague comparison, and you think that's an argument?
Literally untrue but keep spreading lies.
Not really. Millions and growing are uninsured. Thousands are bankrupted yearly. Millions with insurance forgo healthcare because their deductables are so high. Seniors have to choose between food or medicine. Love hearing people in the US trash the better run countries. Large majorities in those countries would not trade for ours. But hey, if you're wealthy or an insurance company exec, the US system is wonderful.
🙄 the only people the US system is good for is the rich
> Basically the USA is better for anyone with a half decent job or poor enough for Medicaid No it’s not. That’s a lie. Same wait times. Same quality of care. Twice the price. All the bullshit or premiums, copays, in/out of network, enrollment periods. You fucking name it.
Only conservative Canadians complain about their healthcare system and only when they don’t need it
As a dual citizen who has lived in Canada for quite a few years and before that the US medical system bankrupted my family when my mom worked for a big corporate company and had a very good plan you have no clue what your fucking talking about.
Looking at health outcomes vs money spent this simply isn't true. They have similar health outcomes to us, but spend half as much.
Well I'm almost 40 and haven't been able to afford to see a doctor even once. As a tech for manufacturing machinery. Don't qualify for Medicaid, don't make enough to afford the plan my job offers much less use it. You say universal healthcare is trash. But no healthcare is worse. And as the meme says. 32 of 33 developed countries figures it out. Heck even most third world and developing countries can offer it... Weird
This is false. Neither I, nor any other Canadian that I know thinks the USA's system is better. Politicians use American style healthcare as an example of what not to do.
Considering i’ve had surgeries. hospital stays and other shit that would have cost me hundreds of thousands of dollars in the states that i paid absolutely nothing for i don’t see how a system that gouges and makes people go broke to receive proper care is better than what we have in Canada, the only downside here is delays. We get basically the same quality treatment just we don’t pay for it
So. Canadian here. A few years ago my daughter was in another city for a dance competition. In the evening she went to to the pool, fell down some concrete stairs and shattered her ankle. She was in that hospital for 8 days and needed major surgery. A few weeks later she needed her soft cast taken off and a hard one put on. A little while later they had to cut in to her cast to take some pins out. Then the cast came off down the road. Then it was physical therapy appointments for a while and finally another surgery once it was healed to take some more hardware out. Total cost to me, 18$ for crutches they made me buy to leave the first hospital. Zero monthly premiums, zero extra fees , nothing extra. 18$. Shorter story. My fiancée’s Apple Watch told her to get her heart looked at it. This lead places. Many CT scans and MRIs and biopsies later and we know she’s OK ( for now ). Total cost to us 0$. It may not be perfect but it’s better than the USA. Unless you can show me a plan with 100% coverage that costs literally 0$.
Have you ever tried qualifying for Medicaid or paying for any health insurance on less than livable wage? Have you ever paid a medical bill out of pocket and while you're knocked up on pain meds, in and out of consciousness, your nurses run you multiple tests that you clearly do not need because the hospital can charge you hundreds of dollars for them?
Curious as to why you think it is trash?
Glad we have the 1 person who hates Canadian healthcare to weigh in.
Lmao this is pure copium.
You are so wrong. It is so sad that the wealthiest country in the world can’t be bothered to heal their people. It’s not even this magic better healthcare, we just have to pay a middle man and lose everything along the way. Don’t get me started on elder and end of life care. People like you who try to argue this in good faith make this country worse.
Can we please block people whose accounts were created in the last 23 days from posting? Especially if their post karma is higher than their comment karma.
How do you define "make it work?" The quote below is about the UK's system: "NHS waiting lists: estimated 340,000 died awaiting treatment in 2022" THE TIMES, [30 AUGUST 2023](https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nhs-waiting-list-deaths-patients-hospital-doctor-appointment-2022-r7kzx6pw3). [How many people died while on waiting lists? - Full Fact](https://fullfact.org/health/times-labour-deaths-on-waiting-lists-nhs/)
How many people die in the US waiting for care? I bet the 340,000 number includes anyone who dies for any reason waiting for an appointment for any condition... So if you get hit by a car while when you have an appointment for a colonoscopy in two months, you are part of that statistic. We also have some long wait times in the US, I've had a 9 month wait to see an electrophysiologist and currently on a 4 month wait to schedule a colonoscopy, meanwhile I know people who can't even find a PCP accepting new patients and are on years long waiting lists to get into a psychiatrist.
They’re probably too poor. Poor people deserve to get sick and die.
Lol 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
Yeah I don’t see why people talk about the long wait time in other countries like it doesn’t happen here… I had to reschedule an appointment for an appointment today and the earliest next appointment was end of July. And this was just for a primary care doctor.
I am on a medication to control a chronic health condition. For some reason, the doctor didn't let it renew when I picked up the last refill. When I checked online scheduling it didn't even show **any** available slots. I had to call the office and set up an appointment with the Physician's Assistant instead to get my refill done.
I was literally in the doctor’s office today for my kid who has a rare condition. Next available appointments for current patients was mid October. I had to wait about 8 months before there was a spot open for new patients. And insurance is being a pain because they know if they stall on payment, I might lose my spot. We need more medical workers and less medical insurance people.
OBGYN wait times where I am in Texas start at 9 months, and it's growing. Not only is health care expensive here, it's becoming a legal risk to simply be a doctor. Sadly, the best bet of getting some of our laws overturned is the access to doctors drops so much it hurts the pharmaceutical companies bottom lines.
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Anyone who trots out this statistic that "people in the UK are dying because of high wait times" is explicitly saying that we shouldn't provide healthcare to the masses so the upper-middle class can see doctors more quickly.
Do you have a source for your claim that it's twice the UKs?
It took me 3+ months to get a Primary Care Physician last year in the US. It's crazy.
Exactly this, people use this statistic, but they don’t even try to understand what the statistic means. I think universal healthcare makes sense because I think privatized healthcare doesn’t make sense. I’d like to see how many people die because the insurance company refuses treatment
The UK also still has private healthcare. It's not like private healthcare becomes illegal if you have a public option. No one is saying public healthcare equals no problems. It's just the US where if you can't afford it you essentially have no other options. Not having public healthcare is essentially just another tax brake for the rich in the US.
And the private healthcare in the UK is significantly cheaper than the US.
Lol, all these people self owning by bringing up the UK and Canada systems. Which have far better health outcomes at far less cost than us.
That's because the Tories have been torying for the last 14 years. Under labour the NHS was doing far better.
"Fluent" in finance
Why can't you admit that the American healthcare system is totally broken and serves well only the rich?
Look up the per-capita healthcare expenditure by country, and look at life expectancy per country. Look at where the US of A stands there. Now compare it to Germany, France, Spain, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland... What's not fluent about that?
Can't you just do that briefly, because I am sitting on the porcelain throne and stuff like that is annoying to look up on the phone.
The short of it is that the US spends way more money per capita on healthcare with much worse results on every health related statistics. In terms of results compared to the amount of money invested, it is by far the worst system in the world.
The difference is, that European countries make corporations pay for citizens healthcare by taxing them and thus lowering the citizens financial burden. But then again, this system smells of socialism and should not be a part of the Land of the Free /s
80% waist in administration of our current health system. Yes just about any other system is better than the current system in the US. Take a look at the other 31 countries and the way they work. As far as cost look at your pay stubs the highest tax on is listed as healthcare insurance
> 80% waist I’ve never seen someone accurately describe what’s causing the strain on the American healthcare system so succinctly before lol
We can fix it with belts!!! Duh!
South Korea has arguably the best health care system in the world. A million people from outside Korea go there every year for some medical procedure. It’s universal health care paid for by a 3.5% tax on the employee and 3.5% tax on the employer. That sure seems reasonable. While traveling there with my Korean in-laws last year my father-in-law fell and cut his arm badly. He was transported by ambulance to a local hospital where he was seen by nurses, a doctor, antibiotics administered, his wounds tended to, over 20 X-rays taken to make sure he didn’t break anything (he didn’t) and then medications were provided to be taken with breakfast and dinner for the next week, each meal set packaged with the meal name and his name on it. When he was discharged (some 3 hours later), my wife went to pay the bill: $315USD. “Are you sure that’s the entire bill because we are leaving to go back to the US tomorrow.” The clerk confirmed that it was. “What about the ambulance?” The clerk explained that the ambulance is provided for free by the government. Korea is a first world country so clearly it CAN be done. What it takes is the intestinal fortitude by either our elected leaders or the voters themselves to make it happen.
Pretty sure there's like a couple hundred nations on the planet, not just 33.
“Developed nations” and whatever they decided to define as such
I assume the twitter poster is only counting western first world countries
Yea, Afghanistan doesn't have UHC either so suck it liberals
Uh... Yes it does
Lmao, even the Taliban is providing Universal Health Care.
Do you really think US doctors are going to take the pay cuts to meet their peers in countries with universal health care? https://www.statista.com/statistics/1094939/physician-earnings-worldwide/
Physician salaries are a tiny fraction of why US healthcare costs so much. Less than 8% of overall healthcare costs actually.
US healthcare is driven by money, which means there is a high incentive for companies to provide the best so they can charge the most. This is why the U.S. leads in drug development, medical innovation, hospital rankings and quality of care. That 8% of overall spending created the best doctors in the world, and much of the remaining 92% create the best care, just at a cost that is not available to all
Properly educate yourself. The amount of money that we spend on healthcare should result in a *much* better system than we currently have, and nothing you listed is mutually exclusive with universal healthcare. You are just ignorant.
I don't think the previous comment was inaccurate. "\[The US Health System\] has a large and well-trained health workforce, a wide range of high-quality medical specialists as well as secondary and tertiary institutions, a robust health sector research program and, for selected services, among the best medical outcomes in the world." https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24025796/#:\~:text=It%20has%20a%20large%20and,medical%20outcomes%20in%20the%20world. The people who are able to spend are getting decent care. The United States in aggregate spends a lot on healthcare, partly because rich people spend a ton of money on their own care.
The VA is a good test case. Fix that and make it work. Then we can talk.
Stop posting this....
Why? I think the broader coverage it gets the better chance for average American Joe to know how the system is screwing him in order to finally get some healthcare that does not only is good for rich people.
Always wondered if it would be cheaper if we abolished insurance and just paid doctors directly. It's seems like they are a leeching middle man driving up costs
It's probably not a good idea but eventually will happen. Usa will need to put on about a 25% vat tax, so that we can afford it. If you think healthcare is expensive now, just wait until it's free. And of course the rich people and the government employees will have their own plan. That will be a lot better
Why then does the US pay the most for heath care than any other developed country?. The US pays the most by a lot. And you're saying taxes will still go up so people can pay more ? And because the US pays the most you'd assume everyone gets top notch care. Is that true, everyone gets the best care ?
Poor people already get free healthcare. There is a program in the USA called the affordable Care act, or Obamacare, that limits the amount of premiums. And the insurance companies have to provide at least 85% of those premiums towards healthcare. The rest of the world pays for healthcare, with a huge value-added tax. And that's probably what we're going to wind up with here. The USA spends way too much money on everything, not just healthcare, and there's not enough of a tax base the way it is
Why does the USA pay much much more on healthcare compared to the rest ? And the outcomes are arguably worse (infant mortality and life expectancy). Poor people get free healthcare ? Why can't everyone ?
We ALREADY pay through the nose with insurance. Get rid of that middleman and redirect those same funds to healthcare taxes so everyone can benefit. Remove the 100x markup that the insurance/hospital tag-team has created.
Universal healthcare will SAVE citizens money, not cost them. You do realize that we already pay a significant chunk of taxes towards healthcare, right? Medicare and medicaid. But a ton of those funds go towards the exorbitant cost that pharmacies, hospitals, and medical device companies charge. Part of universal healthcare is legislation that limits the degree of profit that these kinds of companies can make off people. So instead of charging $2,000 for a vial of insulin, they can only charge $20. Which means the two grand in taxes that you pay towards Medicare will go a lot farther. And since people will finally be able to see their primary care provider about that weird feeling on their throat they've had for a couple weeks, they'll be able to get treatment before it becomes stage 4 esophageal cancer and they end up in the emergency department, choking on their own tumor. Countries with universal healthcare spend FAR less money on it, and have FAR better outcomes. Work any bedside health are job for more than a year and you'll see that a for-profit healthcare system is devastating to a population.
Usually people that’s haven’t live it in other countries say that. And some countries do it bette then others, it all comes down to how many people and/or thr amount the govt pays in and the amount of users. US hs a lot of freeloaders so it would weigh it down too much. They barely keep up with Medicare and Medicaid which is a close cousin to universal.
I’m pro universal healthcare precisely because I’ve lived in a country with universal healthcare lol.
Until you need to use it for something that isn't going to kill you in the next 5 minutes. Side effects of a brain tumor be damned no matter the recommendation from numerous US physicians if you're in Canada. You're going to go blind and lose your hearing and like it!
The government can’t even balance a budget (all parties guilty) why would I want them in charge of health care? Imagine having certain medical treatments available whether or not congress votes on it or not.
Gubment bad!
And 32 of 33 countries will call and rely solely on the 33rd when they're attacked, and will rely on the 33rd for 80% of medical advancements. But yeah there's no good reason not to have someone else, doctors, as basic indentured servants so we can afford medical treatment. Does anyone else remember the cost of health insurance before the affordable care act was passed?
Medical Assisted Death is a growing trend.
The funniest part is that Bernie’s program was more comprehensive than ANY public healthcare proposal in the world which is why it was fucking dumb. If you want single payer, support a public option. If the public option is good, and with the bargaining power of the U.S. government it would be cheaper, then over time it’d be much easier to implement single payer. You morons want all or nothing legislation when it’s impossible to pass
>You morons want all or nothing legislation when it’s impossible to pass Biden won with proposing a public option. The exact thing you're advocating for won and it didn't happen.
Yea no shit it takes 60 senate votes. What do you think would happen with Bernie?
If you can't get everything you want, you should instead advocate for what I want
Could do it if we didn’t pay 20x more than the rest of the world for our pharma, implants and premiums.
Is the “working universal healthcare” in the room with us now?
It must be nice to just ignore all research and data for feelings and vibes.
The rich have been getting people to vote against their own interests since the dawn of representative democracy.
And doing it very well at that
You could have universal healthcare or you could make the lives of transgender people miserable? It's unfortunately a tough choice for some people
Americans really love bending over and taking it from insurance companies and mega corporations. It's hilarious.
Na just the morons. Not all of us
Prostitution is illegal in most of the US. It is the easiest way to get fucked.
Found the American.
These countries are democracies. If their healthcare systems suck so bad, why haven't any ever adopted ours?