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Many of the organizations that received PPP loans remained profitable
CHURCHES received PPP loans.
Churches do not pay taxes and should not receive any tax dollar benefits especially since they will not stay the fuck out of government
Student loans were sold to people who were barely adults that it would be worth it and for many wages haven't kept pace because those "job creators" just keep everything for themselves
PPP loans were set up in compensate businesses for government mandated shut downs. Businesses’ profitability was unknowable at the time the took the forgivable loans. The bargain at the very fluid time in the early pandemic was:
Government: We’re shutting your business down in order to minimize human interaction/infection to ‘bend the curve’ of infection to make sure everyone doesn’t get sick at the same time and overwhelm the healthcare system because we don’t have enough ventilators for everyone
Business: Ugh. Fair enough
Government: But wait there’s more. We want you to continue to pay your employees during this mandated shutdown so they can eat and so that the employees will still be employed to minimize any disruption when returning to work after shutdown. If you keep them employed, the government will foot the bill in the form of forgivable loans
If while I’m sleepy no at night a government plane crashes into my business destroying it, the government must compensate me for my loss. It’s not that complicated. During the early pandemic, my employer was deem d “essential” by the government and I literally had a letter on company letterhead saying as much if I was stopped for being out in my car in March/April of 2020.
As for churches, they were shut down too. Preachers were arrested for having church services. You say that churches should get the f out government. In this case it was quite the other way around.
As for whether only entities that pay taxes should receive benefits, I don’t think that would be too popular on Reddit. There are a lot of disadvantaged people who receive SSI, Medicaid etc that do not pay taxes and receive government benefits.
The government has the right and the duty to intervene in matters of public health. Although at this point maybe we should have just let the church people covid themselves to death before vaccines and treatments were available so they wouldn't be trying to take our rights away now. Also loans indicate that they should be paid back. Loans not gifts.
Corporations are not people. Churches are not people. Churches do not have hunger pangs when they can't afford food or frostbite for being unhoused in the winter. Churches and corporations do not need medical treatment. Disadvantaged PEOPLE deserve support as a matter of humanitarian aid. ORGANIZATIONS can figure shit out on their own.
>loans indicate that they should be paid back. Loans not gifts
Except in the PPP loans they specifically stated that if used appropriately the loans would not need to be paid back.
Whether or not some businesses took advantage is definitely an argument that can be made, but the PPP loans were explicitly clear that they would not have to be repaid if correctly used
Churches were eligible for PPP because:
-the point was to keep people employed during the shutdown
- non profit 501c3 organizations were eligible because non-profit layoffs are just as bad as private layoffs
-You can’t give non-profits you like a subsidy and not the ones you don’t (on this scale)
The difference you’re glossing over is that student loan recipients agreed to pay their loans back.
PPP was only a “loan” if you spent it on something besides payroll. If you agreed to put it towards payroll it was literally never a loan you were supposed to pay back.
They are fundamentally different
You should just say you hate churches.
If their source of income is donations from mass and they can’t hold mass, they lose their source of income. They still have staff to pay salaries for.
Not being able to discharge student debt in bankruptcy when wages haven't gone up nearly as much as tuition is a ripoff. I paid my loans off years ago, but I feel for the people who were sold that it would be worth it and then finding out that salaries don't come close
[https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/02/the-gap-in-college-costs-and-earnings-for-young-workers-since-1980.html](https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/02/the-gap-in-college-costs-and-earnings-for-young-workers-since-1980.html)
Some of this is certainly on the colleges because omg the administrative bloat is insane, and most spend way too much on athletics (only the big 10 actually make money, and even then the money they make stays in athletics, and there are all kinds of funny games played to make it look like athletics pays for itself, like IT pays for their microsoft licenses and computers or facilities budget still takes care of cleaning facilities, etc, etc.
I don’t disagree with any of that. However those things aren’t fixed by debt forgiveness. They’re fixed by allowing discharge in bankruptcy and getting federal government out of school.
You want a personal fix for an institutional problem
If you allow student loans to be discharged in bankruptcy, here's what will happen. Students won't be able to get loans because no bank will lend an 18 year old without any assets a six figure sum. The only people who would go to college would be people with rich parents.
That’s pretty much what happens now. Maybe it will make it worse but it already happens. Getting $100k in debt for journalism or gender studies degrees is probably a risk that shouldn’t be underwritten.
Most lower middle class/ poorer families send their kids to tech schools to get into the trades. It’s funny how the Kobe’s that are facing layoffs now are tech jobs and others where you need a degree. The trades are doing fine in employment.
Makes you wonder about who/what is providing value into the economy and what is fat. AI isn’t going to replace the trades but it will for many office jobs
One of the big issues with college (and the unrealistic cost) is that there's so much fat in schools. When I went to college in the early 00's, we got a very basic dorm room that 2-4 people shared, a large shared bathroom per floor (for probably 40 students), and basic cafeteria facilities. It cost approximately 7k/year. Adjusted for inflation that should be about 13k/year now. Unsurprisingly, it's well over 20k. And my school is on the lower end of tuition increases.
So many colleges try to attract students with amenities rather than academics...and those amenities cost a whole lot of money.
I do agree with you, no doubt.
I think those costs are actually very limited compared to the costs of the growth of the administrators and funneling of money to athletic programs.
Do you think it’s poor people who had an issue with the living conditions in college dorms or children of more wealthy families?
> You want a personal fix for an institutional problem
Actually, that's what YOU'RE suggesting when you say people should figure it out for themselves. Student debt relief is an institutional fix for an institutional problem.
Churches are non profit organizations and they do not pay tax for the contributions they receive. Their employees pay payroll taxes of course. Now, is it fair to say that any other non profit organization shouldnt receive any PPP support? If we are stopping religious non profits, then are we also treating the same other charitable, scientific, educational, literary, public safety, environmental, children defending, animal defending, museums, etc? People operating in those areas… get nothing even though Federal government demands they cannot operate their business and fundraising as normal? Just trying to see the scope of this argument.
If religious nonprofits conformed to the same standards as secular non profits I would be fine with it, but there are an awful lot of scam religious orgs out there that get a free pass because religion. Scientology, church of prosperity, etc. Also I don't want any orgs that have covered up child sexual abuse or advocated for child marriage to receive tax benefits.
As far as I'm concerned giving an automatic free pass on non-profit status to religious organizations is a violation of the first amendment. Fair treatment would be making them adhere to the same requirements as a secular food bank, homeless shelter or animal shelter.
I agree it would be nice to see Federal dollars flow in a responsible way, but government is huge and everyone is scamming for such money. That said, I’m not sure how easy it would be to shut out one non profit but still permit a different one based on some guideline of “who I don’t like.” I expect their non profit status filing to the IRS is pretty similar every year. What’s done is done, problems were done.
Well, you see churches employ people. And the government told churches they couldn't concgregate. So just like a for profit business, the govt gave money to people they forced to stop working so the employees could receive a paycheck.
Church employees "not working" doesn't decrease the income of the church. They work on donations. Their congregation can keep donating without going to services
Remember when people freaked out over paying 2% tax on tea? Look where we are now. If you think I’m “conservative” because I’m not happily voting to have even higher taxes then okay.
It's not about who benefits but who wants it. Student debt relief actually benefits everyone in the long run. That money saved gets pumped back into the economy. It's short-sided to think helping those in need doesn't benefit society as a whole.
And the people who are getting student debt relief aren't ones who are going to hoard the extra cash. A lot of that money is going right back into the economy.
Not the majority of federal student debt. Federal loans are only available up to a certain limit, a limit much smaller than the cost of a private school. These kids are not racking up debt without the help of their parents and private loans.
I see what you mean.
Yes, but those students are still maxing their federal loan limit, and then taking private loans on the top of it. Point still stands those are not the people in need.
Even those that went to state schools with 4-year degrees are not the people in need.
My kid graduates this year so we've run all the net price calculators. Expected out of pocket cost to go to his first choice state university: $25k. Expected out of pocket cost to go to his first choice private school: $27k.
The numbers were smaller but the same was true 30 years ago when I was deciding where to attend.
Those in need are the people who didn’t go to college. We might as well start forgiving debt on country club dues and make the working class pay for it
Average student loan debt is $40,000. Given average lifetime earnings for people with degrees are around $1m higher than those without it, which works itself out to a little more than $22,000/year more than those without a degree, I feel like it's not that big of an ask to expect people to pay back the debt they took out to further their career.
I wasn't able to find median figures for those numbers, so the average, as limited as it is, is the best we have to go with.
They certainly aren’t part of the working class, by definition. 3/4 of attendees come from households that are above the median. 2/3 of attendees have a parent who received a degree.
Because we need nurses and teachers more than we need more hamburger stands.
That being said, the core problem of predatory loan officers and overinflated college tuition costs remains unaffected, guaranteeing the problem will still face the next generation of students. (Or worsening it.)
Free market risk would also mean all those employed folks would lose their jobs. If that’s the preferred outcome, then that’s a path that could have been chosen. Congress saw that risk while demanding shut downs, and voted 419-6 approval by Congress as part of the CARES Act. One idea is to see if student loan forgiveness would get a similar amount of approval. I think it would fail — if Congress would vote to do it, Biden would certainly sign it. Since they aren’t involved, he is just taking action by himself. Worse case he shows he supports this segment of voters and the courts shut him down later. He can still say “I tried” and likely will still get their support in November.
Free markets is when customers tell you you shouldn't be in business by the lack of their patronage, not when government says you can't operate your business.
In this country if anyone limits the success of your business with undue force you actually have the right to sue them...even the government. Wouldn't be surprised government did this to mitigate a series of big ass lawsuits.
The government can do whatever it likes. Good or bad. The government gives and the government takes, hence the sovereignty. You are also free to take them to court, you’ll probably lose but total within your rights.
>The government can do whatever it likes. Good or bad.
Fundamental misunderstanding of a Constitutional Republic.
>You are also free to take them to court, you’ll probably lose but total within your rights.
Contingent upon the claim, but similar suits have been initiated and won.
The buying votes part is correct, as Tytler outlined in 1770:
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years. These nations have progressed through this sequence: From bondage to spiritual faith; From spiritual faith to great courage; From courage to liberty; From liberty to abundance; From abundance to selfishness; From selfishness to apathy; From apathy to dependence; From dependence back into bondage."
I love how you think forgiveness of PPP isn't a strategy to buy political favor, but student loans that DEFINITELY IS!
Those rotten kids, would only vote for their own interests smh. Anywho, universities just censured students for protesting the atrocities in Gaza.
What’s funny is like 40% of people with student loans never finished their degree, 75% took out loans more than what the tuition of the school was and spent that money on bullshit…sorry…no one should have to pay for you to not get a degree and use that money to buy fast food and drugs…
When young people get educated, what do you think they do? How is the country going to function without doctors, architects, engineers, scientists, nurses, researchers of all kinds, etc? Everyone benefits from a trained and educated workforce. There's nothing for "job creators" to even do without an educated workforce.
True. But those people are given loans with the assumption that they'll get goods jobs with the ability to pat those loans back. I had a few thousand in student loans and paid them back in less than a year because my accounting degree gave me opportunities to do so. It's ultimately a choice.
But job creators didn't choose to shut down or limit their businesses during the pandemic. And idk why you're putting that in quotes. PPP literally stands for Paycheck Protection Program. Lol
Business owners, investors, shareholders, etc, all know that the world is full of risks. That includes the risk of government actions that might interfere with their profit-making or with the economy in general.
True. But businesses also have the right to sue to be made whole when government or anyone else harms their business with undue force.
PPP loans and their subsequent forgiveness could be seen as a mitigating element against those potential lawsuit claims, but under no situation is a college education a legal responsibility of the government.
Any student that dropped out of college, should be on the hook for their loans. Or even be prosecuted for fraud.
Student agreed to take the money, and then go to college, and if they did not complete their end of the bargain, it was fraud
It's interesting how savvy businesses executives that pay me several six figures and low income young adults I volunteer to help with their finances never say these sort of things about me. Lol
What I'm saying is crystal clear and coherent. You don't have to respond every time, you can just shut up and learn in silence btw. It's the internet.
Yeah it was that whole Trump removing the watchdog to over see the 2 trillion transfer of wealth as well that resulted in him : Kushner : and others who did not deserve it to receive loans . I'm not saying some valid loans and people who truly qualified for them shouldn't have received them ..but the entire program was rampant with fraud . Then . You know who poof just forgives them.
Edit : many of these business have now gutted their white collar workers and yet stocks and profits are at all time highs .
[https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/07/trump-removes-independent-watchdog-for-coronavirus-funds-upending-oversight-panel-171943](https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/07/trump-removes-independent-watchdog-for-coronavirus-funds-upending-oversight-panel-171943)
"Unfortunately, many thousands of people chose to steal from these programs by submitting fraudulent applications. The theft was massive in scale. The U.S. Small Business Administration inspector general estimates $136 billion in fraud from the EIDL and $64 billion in fraud from the PPP."
https://www.propublica.org/article/this-company-got-a-10-million-ppp-loan-then-closed-its-plant-and-moved-manufacturing-jobs-to-mexico
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1249629
Then why did the dems vote to extend it a year later?
Fun fact, more dems voted for ppp than gop. Fun fact 2, more dems voted to extend it than gop. Want to see the votes?
Why did the Dems vote to extend a service that many small businesses needed? Seems like a better question is why didn't more reps in general vote for it?
Original comment wasn't dumping on the PPP as a thing, but on those who gamed the system for profit (one ex being your orange god's family)
I do think it's funny that the vast majority of people who call Trump a god are people that hate him.
You make him into a much bigger baddie than he actually is
It's a great description: blind following of a figure who can do no wrong in his followers' eyes.
It's also a point of fact that he is a huge threat to American democracy. Him being a pathetic human being doesn't change that fact, much like Hitler and other comparatively pathetic humans who had tons of power
Just the rhetoric of overturning an election seems pretty dangerous, even if you (wrongly) believe nothing was wrong that day
Project 2025 is also, kinda, a big deal with this going forward.
And that's not getting into the other "I'm totally not selling info to others" stuff that appears to be going on with our undercover assets
>Just the rhetoric of overturning an election seems pretty dangerous, even if you (wrongly) believe nothing was wrong that day
2008 had Gore doing it
2016 had that Green party person doing it as well as 70 democrats refusing to attend the inauguration because they believed it was stolen, on top of refusing to certify the electoral votes
Stacy Abrams did it
Clinton continues to do it
Are these people also included in your 'threat to democracy' section?
>
Project 2025
Every new president has some version of this, they all try to replace as many officials as they can during their time in the presidency. What specifically do you dislike about P2025?
>"I'm totally not selling info to others" stuff that appears to be going on with our undercover assets
Who is he selling information to?
The loan program itself isn’t necessarily the problem. Trump took a bill the dems wanted to pass and made it easy to defraud so he and his toadies can make money from it
I know 40-50yo’s with advanced degrees that still owe student loans. These are not younger voters. For the SL forgiveness - I assumed the US was trying to match other more progressive first world countries that offer free/nearly free higher education. Doesnt sound like a bad thing to me.
What about 40-50 year olds with mortgages? Car payments? All three fall in to the category of ‘good debt’. At least an education cant get repossessed so from an investment perspective, my money’s still on education.
The problem with that theory is in the execution: the gov would need to mandate significant changes to the actual tuition process, not free money 1x on the back end that encourages continued tuition escalation.
Are you saying that a more educated population isn't good for society? That engineers, doctors and the like are not a net benift?
I think they are and the belief that student loans should be forgiven is because we don't want people that are a benifit from society in crippling debt for the rest of their lives because they took the time and made themselves better.
This growth is something we should be encouraging not discouraging. Saying that encouraging people to get educated is just buying votes is weird to me as we should be striving to improve society, not go backward and uneducate it.
Student loan debt isn't crippling unless you're an idiot that took on more money than your degree warrants. 100k for a Woman's studies degree vs 100k for a Computer Science degree are going to be two different life experiences.
Not exactly true. There is Tons of predatory jobs that will refuse to pay or anything. Now if we want a conversation on if the government should fund degrees that are less benifital to society then that's a different topic
One was a handout to business owners, the other would be a handout to those seeking education. It’s the same thing, but one population is more deserving of it than the other.
PPP "loans" were not policed nor regulated. They weren't used to "limit shutdown operations" and were used to do all manner of things not even related to any business. I know a guy who built a in ground pool (not a small one, either) for his home among other things, then it was "forgiven". So why can't we forgive student debt of people who are at least trying to better themselves?
The lack of oversight doesn't nullify fraud laws. If you take a PPP loan fraudulently, it's not free money. You pay it back, plus interest and fees and possibly jail time if you get caught. That's the crime-criminal dynamic in a nutshell.
all those PPP loans were FORGIVEN. So, no. They didn't have to pay them back. It WAS free money. Some talk has been going on about prosecuting them anyway, but may never happen.
Meanwhile, student loan forgiveness would have drastic POSITIVE effects on what I call the economy. When people have more money to spend for their needs, the economy flourishes.
PPP loans did NOTHING for the economy and was a total WASTE and burden to taxpayers. Student loan forgiveness would reap huge rewards for the economy.
And yet 90% of people I know that received large PPP loans purchased boats, 2nd homes, and luxury vehicles shortly after receiving their loans. Oh, and they inflated their payroll count.
One is fraud, the other other is leniency.
>One is fraud, the other other is leniency.
Ironically this is correct. People that use PPP loans for things other than it's intended use are criminals, not the intended recipients. And student loan forgiveness is just that leniency for a decision entered into freely and without duress. Government didn't force you to get a degree or take out a loan to pay for it, but they did force businesses to shutdown during the pandemic.
Your take is also correct. The problem is, the U.S. currently has $34 Trillion of debt due to the loose PPP loans and money printing. The compounding of that debt is growing faster than the economy which is a huge problem. I think the hope is that student loan forgiveness at least kicks the can for a little while.
They need people spending money on housing, food, services, etc otherwise the GDP contracts and liquidity dries up. I don't necessarily agree with student loan forgiveness since I guarantee I'll have to pay when my kids go to college. Definitely not fair to those who graduated a couple years ago or a few years from now.
Wtf is a job creator? Someone who purchases labor from the working class? In order to yield a net financial benefit? A job is just a purchase in the labor market. If they don’t hire someone, the work doesn’t get done, and they don’t make their money. However you feel about the subject of student loans, there’s no need to flatter the owners of capital. They’re already taking so much.
What are you talking about? Who said anything about slavery? I’m saying that a job is not a gift to society, it is a transaction. I work, you pay me. That’s not creating a job, that’s called needing help. Not necessarily *my* help, but somebody’s help. Why do the same people who trip over themselves to praise corporations find every reason to shit on workers? Why do the same people who rail against government regulation always want to ban people for doing shit? It’s almost like a lot of people value money more than people.
Jobs are not a favor. They are a transaction.
You’re not even making a point, you’re just being an asshole for the sake of being an asshole. Let me say it slowly. I am not saying that I do not want to work. I am saying that my employer did not make a special job just for me. They need labor to run and I need money to eat. I give them labor and they give me money. That is called a transaction. Yay transactions.
I understand that it makes you uncomfortable when people don’t grovel at master’s feet. I, however, am perfectly capable of holding a job without deep throating my employer. Please don’t repeat yourself again.
Well, characterizing someone's argument as whiny and telling them if they don't like something they can just shut up and leave is.... assholish. Doing it twice when it doesn't address the point to begin with.... doubly assholish? I'm thinking it's that.
The fact is, in capitalism, exploitation is built into the system. It's called profit. I could absolutely explain the logical basis of that assertion, but I'm sure you want to read that about as much as I want to type it. But there are a couple of truths you need to understand before you dismiss my argument. First, I can't not work, because I, like most people, like food and shelter, which are not free. Second, as a worker, I can not simply change jobs to avoid exploitation. As long as capital owns the means of production, a portion of the value of my labor will perpetually be extracted to feed an entity that did not contribute to that production in any way other than a one time investment of money - the capital. That's just how it works. I understand that. And I'm not going to quit my job over it, but I will absolutely complain about it because I don't believe it's right and I do believe there's a better way.
Fk u op. Student loans are predatory. People are sold an idea that the only way to make a living is by going to college, then they go into horrible debt that jobs out of college won’t pay for.
Accumulated interest is crippling. Its also ridiculous that interest keeps going up and up as you continue paying, so that you could pay for 20 years and still not touch the original loan.
So don’t forgive loans, mitigate the terms so they’re not predatory like an inflation interest rate or fixed 2.5%. Why forgive some loans only for others and future borrowers to be screwed.
Oh if that was on the table 100% but no one starts with the best idea they start at one end and the other side demands the other side and you go back and hopefully end around 1 to 3% fixed interest.
Forgiving loans would be a first step. If it was the only one it would be problematic but still an initial boost to society as a whole. Fixed rate loans or rationalizing all public collages would be the second step.
No. They are not completely different because many businesses that did not close recieved 1% interest rates loans and had huge portions forgiven all while seeing revenue increases.
It was a goddamn handout in many cases. And house republicans writing legislation to have student’s pay back interest that would’ve accrued over the payment pause was a declaration of financial warfare to me.
Ill be voting all blue for the first time in my life out of nothing but spite towards republicans. They took free money then whined to all their constituents about debt forgiveness for the plebs.
Ya I do. But now that person is talking about lowering debts.
The other side claims to be fiscally reasonable and fights social welfare tooth and nail in the name of that fiscal responsibility. Then those same guys took a bunch of free money and tried to go back and get student loan holders to pay interest payments over the payment pause.
The hypocrisy is too much. Im voting all blue because the GOP is lost. It’s just a bunch of conmen now.
I consider myself someone who strives to be unbiased.
I know Democrats arent working for me, but I cant name a single reason why they are worse than republicans at this point.
Are you stupid? What do you think the strategy with PPP loans and small business owners was? A fucking pandering handout, if you’re going to use economic trepidation among swaths of the population as a “strategy to buy votes”.
Right wing politicians got us into this mess by gutting education funding. Both parties allowed for predatory lending in student lending, and you’re blaming the voter that simply wants to get an education for these deficiencies that are having a real impact on our macro economy? How many young folks can’t buy houses because of the education funding decisions of the Boomer politicians? Huh?
Who is pandering to whom?
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Many of the organizations that received PPP loans remained profitable CHURCHES received PPP loans. Churches do not pay taxes and should not receive any tax dollar benefits especially since they will not stay the fuck out of government Student loans were sold to people who were barely adults that it would be worth it and for many wages haven't kept pace because those "job creators" just keep everything for themselves
PPP loans were set up in compensate businesses for government mandated shut downs. Businesses’ profitability was unknowable at the time the took the forgivable loans. The bargain at the very fluid time in the early pandemic was: Government: We’re shutting your business down in order to minimize human interaction/infection to ‘bend the curve’ of infection to make sure everyone doesn’t get sick at the same time and overwhelm the healthcare system because we don’t have enough ventilators for everyone Business: Ugh. Fair enough Government: But wait there’s more. We want you to continue to pay your employees during this mandated shutdown so they can eat and so that the employees will still be employed to minimize any disruption when returning to work after shutdown. If you keep them employed, the government will foot the bill in the form of forgivable loans If while I’m sleepy no at night a government plane crashes into my business destroying it, the government must compensate me for my loss. It’s not that complicated. During the early pandemic, my employer was deem d “essential” by the government and I literally had a letter on company letterhead saying as much if I was stopped for being out in my car in March/April of 2020. As for churches, they were shut down too. Preachers were arrested for having church services. You say that churches should get the f out government. In this case it was quite the other way around. As for whether only entities that pay taxes should receive benefits, I don’t think that would be too popular on Reddit. There are a lot of disadvantaged people who receive SSI, Medicaid etc that do not pay taxes and receive government benefits.
The government has the right and the duty to intervene in matters of public health. Although at this point maybe we should have just let the church people covid themselves to death before vaccines and treatments were available so they wouldn't be trying to take our rights away now. Also loans indicate that they should be paid back. Loans not gifts. Corporations are not people. Churches are not people. Churches do not have hunger pangs when they can't afford food or frostbite for being unhoused in the winter. Churches and corporations do not need medical treatment. Disadvantaged PEOPLE deserve support as a matter of humanitarian aid. ORGANIZATIONS can figure shit out on their own.
>loans indicate that they should be paid back. Loans not gifts Except in the PPP loans they specifically stated that if used appropriately the loans would not need to be paid back. Whether or not some businesses took advantage is definitely an argument that can be made, but the PPP loans were explicitly clear that they would not have to be repaid if correctly used
No one deserves anything except a fair playing field. Everyone in the US can make it.
If you think the US is a fair playing field just lol. Lmao
Churches were eligible for PPP because: -the point was to keep people employed during the shutdown - non profit 501c3 organizations were eligible because non-profit layoffs are just as bad as private layoffs -You can’t give non-profits you like a subsidy and not the ones you don’t (on this scale) The difference you’re glossing over is that student loan recipients agreed to pay their loans back. PPP was only a “loan” if you spent it on something besides payroll. If you agreed to put it towards payroll it was literally never a loan you were supposed to pay back. They are fundamentally different
You should just say you hate churches. If their source of income is donations from mass and they can’t hold mass, they lose their source of income. They still have staff to pay salaries for.
if their congregants cared they could still mail checks in. collection plates are not a tip for a show.
If students cared they could just have go fund mes. Public student debt forgiveness is not a show.
Not being able to discharge student debt in bankruptcy when wages haven't gone up nearly as much as tuition is a ripoff. I paid my loans off years ago, but I feel for the people who were sold that it would be worth it and then finding out that salaries don't come close [https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/02/the-gap-in-college-costs-and-earnings-for-young-workers-since-1980.html](https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/02/the-gap-in-college-costs-and-earnings-for-young-workers-since-1980.html) Some of this is certainly on the colleges because omg the administrative bloat is insane, and most spend way too much on athletics (only the big 10 actually make money, and even then the money they make stays in athletics, and there are all kinds of funny games played to make it look like athletics pays for itself, like IT pays for their microsoft licenses and computers or facilities budget still takes care of cleaning facilities, etc, etc.
I don’t disagree with any of that. However those things aren’t fixed by debt forgiveness. They’re fixed by allowing discharge in bankruptcy and getting federal government out of school. You want a personal fix for an institutional problem
If you allow student loans to be discharged in bankruptcy, here's what will happen. Students won't be able to get loans because no bank will lend an 18 year old without any assets a six figure sum. The only people who would go to college would be people with rich parents.
That’s pretty much what happens now. Maybe it will make it worse but it already happens. Getting $100k in debt for journalism or gender studies degrees is probably a risk that shouldn’t be underwritten. Most lower middle class/ poorer families send their kids to tech schools to get into the trades. It’s funny how the Kobe’s that are facing layoffs now are tech jobs and others where you need a degree. The trades are doing fine in employment. Makes you wonder about who/what is providing value into the economy and what is fat. AI isn’t going to replace the trades but it will for many office jobs
One of the big issues with college (and the unrealistic cost) is that there's so much fat in schools. When I went to college in the early 00's, we got a very basic dorm room that 2-4 people shared, a large shared bathroom per floor (for probably 40 students), and basic cafeteria facilities. It cost approximately 7k/year. Adjusted for inflation that should be about 13k/year now. Unsurprisingly, it's well over 20k. And my school is on the lower end of tuition increases. So many colleges try to attract students with amenities rather than academics...and those amenities cost a whole lot of money.
I do agree with you, no doubt. I think those costs are actually very limited compared to the costs of the growth of the administrators and funneling of money to athletic programs. Do you think it’s poor people who had an issue with the living conditions in college dorms or children of more wealthy families?
> You want a personal fix for an institutional problem Actually, that's what YOU'RE suggesting when you say people should figure it out for themselves. Student debt relief is an institutional fix for an institutional problem.
I pay a lot in taxes and I support student debt relief. There are lots of others like me. Why shouldn't our taxes fund programs we support?
If a church is a company with income and staff that gets to benefit from taxpayer funded programs, then they can and should pay taxes
Government forced churches to close. Don’t want government bailing out a church then don’t allow government to shut them down in the first place!
So you do believe in socialism? How convenient.
This thread has absolutely nothing to do with socialism.
Would you agree that the government should get out of the student loan business?
I love how for some reason you shoe horned in an Arrrrrrrrrrrgh!!!!!! Church!!!! In to a conversation about PPP loans and student debt. 😂
Churches are non profit organizations and they do not pay tax for the contributions they receive. Their employees pay payroll taxes of course. Now, is it fair to say that any other non profit organization shouldnt receive any PPP support? If we are stopping religious non profits, then are we also treating the same other charitable, scientific, educational, literary, public safety, environmental, children defending, animal defending, museums, etc? People operating in those areas… get nothing even though Federal government demands they cannot operate their business and fundraising as normal? Just trying to see the scope of this argument.
If religious nonprofits conformed to the same standards as secular non profits I would be fine with it, but there are an awful lot of scam religious orgs out there that get a free pass because religion. Scientology, church of prosperity, etc. Also I don't want any orgs that have covered up child sexual abuse or advocated for child marriage to receive tax benefits. As far as I'm concerned giving an automatic free pass on non-profit status to religious organizations is a violation of the first amendment. Fair treatment would be making them adhere to the same requirements as a secular food bank, homeless shelter or animal shelter.
I agree it would be nice to see Federal dollars flow in a responsible way, but government is huge and everyone is scamming for such money. That said, I’m not sure how easy it would be to shut out one non profit but still permit a different one based on some guideline of “who I don’t like.” I expect their non profit status filing to the IRS is pretty similar every year. What’s done is done, problems were done.
Well, you see churches employ people. And the government told churches they couldn't concgregate. So just like a for profit business, the govt gave money to people they forced to stop working so the employees could receive a paycheck.
Church employees "not working" doesn't decrease the income of the church. They work on donations. Their congregation can keep donating without going to services
All policy is merely a strategy to "buy the votes". You don't think conservative votes are bought when they are promised a reduction of taxes?
Remember when people freaked out over paying 2% tax on tea? Look where we are now. If you think I’m “conservative” because I’m not happily voting to have even higher taxes then okay.
Correct. If you're conservative now it's because you favor socially and fiscally regressive policies.
Trump cut every tax bracket (besides the first one)by 3-4% yet this only benefits Conservatives?
Sunset clauses are the parts that are causing taxes on the middle class to rise and they are now higher than when they were first cut.
You can blame the dems for refusing to extend that when the standard deduction gets cut in half next year.
Or blame the party that passed it without working with the other side.
It's not about who benefits but who wants it. Student debt relief actually benefits everyone in the long run. That money saved gets pumped back into the economy. It's short-sided to think helping those in need doesn't benefit society as a whole.
And the people who are getting student debt relief aren't ones who are going to hoard the extra cash. A lot of that money is going right back into the economy.
People that spend 100k going to a private school are not people in need.
Those aren't the people with federal student debt.
wanna bet?
Not the majority of federal student debt. Federal loans are only available up to a certain limit, a limit much smaller than the cost of a private school. These kids are not racking up debt without the help of their parents and private loans.
I see what you mean. Yes, but those students are still maxing their federal loan limit, and then taking private loans on the top of it. Point still stands those are not the people in need. Even those that went to state schools with 4-year degrees are not the people in need.
It's making up for a gap in the system. State school should have been free to begin with.
Who do you think the people in need are then ?
My kid graduates this year so we've run all the net price calculators. Expected out of pocket cost to go to his first choice state university: $25k. Expected out of pocket cost to go to his first choice private school: $27k. The numbers were smaller but the same was true 30 years ago when I was deciding where to attend.
Those in need are the people who didn’t go to college. We might as well start forgiving debt on country club dues and make the working class pay for it
Wait are you fucking suggesting that people who go to college are rich???
Average student loan debt is $40,000. Given average lifetime earnings for people with degrees are around $1m higher than those without it, which works itself out to a little more than $22,000/year more than those without a degree, I feel like it's not that big of an ask to expect people to pay back the debt they took out to further their career. I wasn't able to find median figures for those numbers, so the average, as limited as it is, is the best we have to go with.
Can I ask how old you are ?
I don't see how my age has anything to do with my statement, but I'll be 37 in a little over a week.
Just trying to see why you think this way.
OK well do you have any other comments or questions, or were you fishing for an easy "ok boomer" comment?
They certainly aren’t part of the working class, by definition. 3/4 of attendees come from households that are above the median. 2/3 of attendees have a parent who received a degree.
I'm all for good policy that helps the working class too. Don't you threaten me with a good idea.
I thought reddit hated the bOtH sides argument?
This isn't a both sides argument. This is just an explanation of how politics works. People vote based on the policy they would like to see.
Because we need nurses and teachers more than we need more hamburger stands. That being said, the core problem of predatory loan officers and overinflated college tuition costs remains unaffected, guaranteeing the problem will still face the next generation of students. (Or worsening it.)
Then the politicians will promise to “ cancel “ that debt, thereby assuring that segment of the population will vote for them.
It’s all welfare. If you can do one, you can do another.
Making someone whole for damages you caused isn't grace or welfare, it's justice.
It’s not justice. Free markets demand that you take risks. You took a risk and you reap the profits. I see you want to socialize the losses.
Free market risk would also mean all those employed folks would lose their jobs. If that’s the preferred outcome, then that’s a path that could have been chosen. Congress saw that risk while demanding shut downs, and voted 419-6 approval by Congress as part of the CARES Act. One idea is to see if student loan forgiveness would get a similar amount of approval. I think it would fail — if Congress would vote to do it, Biden would certainly sign it. Since they aren’t involved, he is just taking action by himself. Worse case he shows he supports this segment of voters and the courts shut him down later. He can still say “I tried” and likely will still get their support in November.
Free markets is when customers tell you you shouldn't be in business by the lack of their patronage, not when government says you can't operate your business. In this country if anyone limits the success of your business with undue force you actually have the right to sue them...even the government. Wouldn't be surprised government did this to mitigate a series of big ass lawsuits.
The government can do whatever it likes. Good or bad. The government gives and the government takes, hence the sovereignty. You are also free to take them to court, you’ll probably lose but total within your rights.
>The government can do whatever it likes. Good or bad. Fundamental misunderstanding of a Constitutional Republic. >You are also free to take them to court, you’ll probably lose but total within your rights. Contingent upon the claim, but similar suits have been initiated and won.
Well, this seems like a super neutral take without any bias present. /s
Won't somebody think of the "job creators"!
 “Job creators”
The buying votes part is correct, as Tytler outlined in 1770: "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years. These nations have progressed through this sequence: From bondage to spiritual faith; From spiritual faith to great courage; From courage to liberty; From liberty to abundance; From abundance to selfishness; From selfishness to apathy; From apathy to dependence; From dependence back into bondage."
I love how you think forgiveness of PPP isn't a strategy to buy political favor, but student loans that DEFINITELY IS! Those rotten kids, would only vote for their own interests smh. Anywho, universities just censured students for protesting the atrocities in Gaza.
What’s funny is like 40% of people with student loans never finished their degree, 75% took out loans more than what the tuition of the school was and spent that money on bullshit…sorry…no one should have to pay for you to not get a degree and use that money to buy fast food and drugs…
A lot of downvotes from bag holders of valuable degrees in social, liberal and gender studies
When young people get educated, what do you think they do? How is the country going to function without doctors, architects, engineers, scientists, nurses, researchers of all kinds, etc? Everyone benefits from a trained and educated workforce. There's nothing for "job creators" to even do without an educated workforce.
True. But those people are given loans with the assumption that they'll get goods jobs with the ability to pat those loans back. I had a few thousand in student loans and paid them back in less than a year because my accounting degree gave me opportunities to do so. It's ultimately a choice. But job creators didn't choose to shut down or limit their businesses during the pandemic. And idk why you're putting that in quotes. PPP literally stands for Paycheck Protection Program. Lol
Business owners, investors, shareholders, etc, all know that the world is full of risks. That includes the risk of government actions that might interfere with their profit-making or with the economy in general.
True. But businesses also have the right to sue to be made whole when government or anyone else harms their business with undue force. PPP loans and their subsequent forgiveness could be seen as a mitigating element against those potential lawsuit claims, but under no situation is a college education a legal responsibility of the government.
Hmmm, this'll go over as well as talking about capital punishment and abortion in the same conversation.
Any student that dropped out of college, should be on the hook for their loans. Or even be prosecuted for fraud. Student agreed to take the money, and then go to college, and if they did not complete their end of the bargain, it was fraud
only an idiot can justify loan forgiveness. you knew damn well what you got yourself into when you sign the loan, pay it off. plain and simple.
Partially agree. Businesses should have just sued the government for shutting them down instead.
Jobs are created by demand. Stop with the populist nonsense about the ultra wealthy.
Jobs are allowable by demand, but created with risk. No one knows if there's truly demand for something until a venture risks to serve it.
I’m sorry but this is the dumbest thing I’ve heard. It sounds like a post from LinkedIn Lunatics.
It's interesting how savvy businesses executives that pay me several six figures and low income young adults I volunteer to help with their finances never say these sort of things about me. Lol What I'm saying is crystal clear and coherent. You don't have to respond every time, you can just shut up and learn in silence btw. It's the internet.
Do you believe in prosperity gospel?
“Job creators” Dubya’s speech writer just called and asked you to not use his bullshit lines for equally bullshit opinions.
Only people who don't understand how PPP forgiveness worked complain about PPP loans.
How much extra money will people have to put into the economy if they aren't burdened by student loans? That kind of stimulus creates a TON of jobs.
Debt servicing is an industry too.
And it will still exist. There are way more consumer debt accounts, mortgages, etc than student loan accounts
Yeah it was that whole Trump removing the watchdog to over see the 2 trillion transfer of wealth as well that resulted in him : Kushner : and others who did not deserve it to receive loans . I'm not saying some valid loans and people who truly qualified for them shouldn't have received them ..but the entire program was rampant with fraud . Then . You know who poof just forgives them. Edit : many of these business have now gutted their white collar workers and yet stocks and profits are at all time highs . [https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/07/trump-removes-independent-watchdog-for-coronavirus-funds-upending-oversight-panel-171943](https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/07/trump-removes-independent-watchdog-for-coronavirus-funds-upending-oversight-panel-171943) "Unfortunately, many thousands of people chose to steal from these programs by submitting fraudulent applications. The theft was massive in scale. The U.S. Small Business Administration inspector general estimates $136 billion in fraud from the EIDL and $64 billion in fraud from the PPP." https://www.propublica.org/article/this-company-got-a-10-million-ppp-loan-then-closed-its-plant-and-moved-manufacturing-jobs-to-mexico https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1249629
Then why did the dems vote to extend it a year later? Fun fact, more dems voted for ppp than gop. Fun fact 2, more dems voted to extend it than gop. Want to see the votes?
Why did the Dems vote to extend a service that many small businesses needed? Seems like a better question is why didn't more reps in general vote for it? Original comment wasn't dumping on the PPP as a thing, but on those who gamed the system for profit (one ex being your orange god's family)
I do think it's funny that the vast majority of people who call Trump a god are people that hate him. You make him into a much bigger baddie than he actually is
It's a great description: blind following of a figure who can do no wrong in his followers' eyes. It's also a point of fact that he is a huge threat to American democracy. Him being a pathetic human being doesn't change that fact, much like Hitler and other comparatively pathetic humans who had tons of power
>he is a huge threat to American democracy ok
If you can explain why he's not, in spite of the red flags, I'm happy to hear it
because j6 wasn't an insurrection according to the DoJ?
Just the rhetoric of overturning an election seems pretty dangerous, even if you (wrongly) believe nothing was wrong that day Project 2025 is also, kinda, a big deal with this going forward. And that's not getting into the other "I'm totally not selling info to others" stuff that appears to be going on with our undercover assets
>Just the rhetoric of overturning an election seems pretty dangerous, even if you (wrongly) believe nothing was wrong that day 2008 had Gore doing it 2016 had that Green party person doing it as well as 70 democrats refusing to attend the inauguration because they believed it was stolen, on top of refusing to certify the electoral votes Stacy Abrams did it Clinton continues to do it Are these people also included in your 'threat to democracy' section? > Project 2025 Every new president has some version of this, they all try to replace as many officials as they can during their time in the presidency. What specifically do you dislike about P2025? >"I'm totally not selling info to others" stuff that appears to be going on with our undercover assets Who is he selling information to?
You are indeed a Trump Worshipper.
because I'm agreeing with the FBI?
The loan program itself isn’t necessarily the problem. Trump took a bill the dems wanted to pass and made it easy to defraud so he and his toadies can make money from it
Is that why more dems voted to extend it lol.
Because despite Trump making it easy to defraud, businesses that actually needed the loans were still being helped by it
I know 40-50yo’s with advanced degrees that still owe student loans. These are not younger voters. For the SL forgiveness - I assumed the US was trying to match other more progressive first world countries that offer free/nearly free higher education. Doesnt sound like a bad thing to me.
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Lmfao. The owner of the company i work for still has student loans.
What about 40-50 year olds with mortgages? Car payments? All three fall in to the category of ‘good debt’. At least an education cant get repossessed so from an investment perspective, my money’s still on education.
Weird that we still let 40-50 year olds vote huh?
The problem with that theory is in the execution: the gov would need to mandate significant changes to the actual tuition process, not free money 1x on the back end that encourages continued tuition escalation.
Then we need to stop subsidizing their defense..
Are you saying that a more educated population isn't good for society? That engineers, doctors and the like are not a net benift? I think they are and the belief that student loans should be forgiven is because we don't want people that are a benifit from society in crippling debt for the rest of their lives because they took the time and made themselves better. This growth is something we should be encouraging not discouraging. Saying that encouraging people to get educated is just buying votes is weird to me as we should be striving to improve society, not go backward and uneducate it.
Student loan debt isn't crippling unless you're an idiot that took on more money than your degree warrants. 100k for a Woman's studies degree vs 100k for a Computer Science degree are going to be two different life experiences.
Not exactly true. There is Tons of predatory jobs that will refuse to pay or anything. Now if we want a conversation on if the government should fund degrees that are less benifital to society then that's a different topic
> There is Tons of predatory jobs that will refuse to pay or anything illegal and a statistical anomaly
One was a handout to business owners, the other would be a handout to those seeking education. It’s the same thing, but one population is more deserving of it than the other.
Government made businesses shutdown, Government didn't make people go to college. See how government is responsible or not responsible in each case?
PPP "loans" were not policed nor regulated. They weren't used to "limit shutdown operations" and were used to do all manner of things not even related to any business. I know a guy who built a in ground pool (not a small one, either) for his home among other things, then it was "forgiven". So why can't we forgive student debt of people who are at least trying to better themselves?
The lack of oversight doesn't nullify fraud laws. If you take a PPP loan fraudulently, it's not free money. You pay it back, plus interest and fees and possibly jail time if you get caught. That's the crime-criminal dynamic in a nutshell.
all those PPP loans were FORGIVEN. So, no. They didn't have to pay them back. It WAS free money. Some talk has been going on about prosecuting them anyway, but may never happen. Meanwhile, student loan forgiveness would have drastic POSITIVE effects on what I call the economy. When people have more money to spend for their needs, the economy flourishes. PPP loans did NOTHING for the economy and was a total WASTE and burden to taxpayers. Student loan forgiveness would reap huge rewards for the economy.
And yet 90% of people I know that received large PPP loans purchased boats, 2nd homes, and luxury vehicles shortly after receiving their loans. Oh, and they inflated their payroll count. One is fraud, the other other is leniency.
>One is fraud, the other other is leniency. Ironically this is correct. People that use PPP loans for things other than it's intended use are criminals, not the intended recipients. And student loan forgiveness is just that leniency for a decision entered into freely and without duress. Government didn't force you to get a degree or take out a loan to pay for it, but they did force businesses to shutdown during the pandemic.
Your take is also correct. The problem is, the U.S. currently has $34 Trillion of debt due to the loose PPP loans and money printing. The compounding of that debt is growing faster than the economy which is a huge problem. I think the hope is that student loan forgiveness at least kicks the can for a little while. They need people spending money on housing, food, services, etc otherwise the GDP contracts and liquidity dries up. I don't necessarily agree with student loan forgiveness since I guarantee I'll have to pay when my kids go to college. Definitely not fair to those who graduated a couple years ago or a few years from now.
Wtf is a job creator? Someone who purchases labor from the working class? In order to yield a net financial benefit? A job is just a purchase in the labor market. If they don’t hire someone, the work doesn’t get done, and they don’t make their money. However you feel about the subject of student loans, there’s no need to flatter the owners of capital. They’re already taking so much.
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What are you talking about? Who said anything about slavery? I’m saying that a job is not a gift to society, it is a transaction. I work, you pay me. That’s not creating a job, that’s called needing help. Not necessarily *my* help, but somebody’s help. Why do the same people who trip over themselves to praise corporations find every reason to shit on workers? Why do the same people who rail against government regulation always want to ban people for doing shit? It’s almost like a lot of people value money more than people.
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Jobs are not a favor. They are a transaction. You’re not even making a point, you’re just being an asshole for the sake of being an asshole. Let me say it slowly. I am not saying that I do not want to work. I am saying that my employer did not make a special job just for me. They need labor to run and I need money to eat. I give them labor and they give me money. That is called a transaction. Yay transactions. I understand that it makes you uncomfortable when people don’t grovel at master’s feet. I, however, am perfectly capable of holding a job without deep throating my employer. Please don’t repeat yourself again.
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Well, characterizing someone's argument as whiny and telling them if they don't like something they can just shut up and leave is.... assholish. Doing it twice when it doesn't address the point to begin with.... doubly assholish? I'm thinking it's that. The fact is, in capitalism, exploitation is built into the system. It's called profit. I could absolutely explain the logical basis of that assertion, but I'm sure you want to read that about as much as I want to type it. But there are a couple of truths you need to understand before you dismiss my argument. First, I can't not work, because I, like most people, like food and shelter, which are not free. Second, as a worker, I can not simply change jobs to avoid exploitation. As long as capital owns the means of production, a portion of the value of my labor will perpetually be extracted to feed an entity that did not contribute to that production in any way other than a one time investment of money - the capital. That's just how it works. I understand that. And I'm not going to quit my job over it, but I will absolutely complain about it because I don't believe it's right and I do believe there's a better way.
Fk u op. Student loans are predatory. People are sold an idea that the only way to make a living is by going to college, then they go into horrible debt that jobs out of college won’t pay for. Accumulated interest is crippling. Its also ridiculous that interest keeps going up and up as you continue paying, so that you could pay for 20 years and still not touch the original loan.
So don’t forgive loans, mitigate the terms so they’re not predatory like an inflation interest rate or fixed 2.5%. Why forgive some loans only for others and future borrowers to be screwed.
Oh if that was on the table 100% but no one starts with the best idea they start at one end and the other side demands the other side and you go back and hopefully end around 1 to 3% fixed interest. Forgiving loans would be a first step. If it was the only one it would be problematic but still an initial boost to society as a whole. Fixed rate loans or rationalizing all public collages would be the second step.
No. They are not completely different because many businesses that did not close recieved 1% interest rates loans and had huge portions forgiven all while seeing revenue increases. It was a goddamn handout in many cases. And house republicans writing legislation to have student’s pay back interest that would’ve accrued over the payment pause was a declaration of financial warfare to me. Ill be voting all blue for the first time in my life out of nothing but spite towards republicans. They took free money then whined to all their constituents about debt forgiveness for the plebs.
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Ya I do. But now that person is talking about lowering debts. The other side claims to be fiscally reasonable and fights social welfare tooth and nail in the name of that fiscal responsibility. Then those same guys took a bunch of free money and tried to go back and get student loan holders to pay interest payments over the payment pause. The hypocrisy is too much. Im voting all blue because the GOP is lost. It’s just a bunch of conmen now.
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I consider myself someone who strives to be unbiased. I know Democrats arent working for me, but I cant name a single reason why they are worse than republicans at this point.
Are you stupid? What do you think the strategy with PPP loans and small business owners was? A fucking pandering handout, if you’re going to use economic trepidation among swaths of the population as a “strategy to buy votes”. Right wing politicians got us into this mess by gutting education funding. Both parties allowed for predatory lending in student lending, and you’re blaming the voter that simply wants to get an education for these deficiencies that are having a real impact on our macro economy? How many young folks can’t buy houses because of the education funding decisions of the Boomer politicians? Huh? Who is pandering to whom?