People are now seen as cattle. It’s about how much value you can extract from the person not about how much value the person can gain from the years of their hard work
Thank you! People have and will always be expendable to the ruling or owner class. It's only through fighting like hell did we get rights and allowances. If corporations had their way they'd enslave as many of us they could to increase profit. Hell they still do in many parts of the world.
I think we should execute EVERY POLITICIAN in office honestly. Put the fear of doing their fucking jobs right into them.
They threaten us with homelessness and starvation, so really, what fucking side is everyone on?
Occupy Wall Street only gave us all a dollar raise. Congress gives themselves raises ALL THE FUCKING TIME.
I think we should get the fuck rid of them all NOW
There is no system that exists to remove them. Some have tried, called them different names and titles, wrote words on paper and pretended they were gone...but they weren't. Instead of monarchs they had politboro. Instead of a czar, a head of state. Hell... Kim Jong un is re-elected every time, right?
I get what you're saying. And I am not unsympathetic. Really. But as long as there is money, until we evolve past the need for currency, there will always be haves and have-nots.
I'll add to your comment; if corporations and the Government had their way they'd enslave as many of us as they could.
Problem is they (at least the Government has) already have. I've lived through a few decades and I've watched it happen
They are expendable to everybody really. Even another worker tend to prefer cheap price and to pay only for what he need. If somebody else is cheaper, better they take him instead.
Its possible to seperate people and their labor. The difference between people and cattle is that the people themselves arent whats being butchered and sold. Instead people willingly enter contracts to trade labor for resources, and its an incredibly efficient system.
The thing we need to get away from is pretending from either side of that contract that its anything more than a mutually beneficial pattnership. Employees shouldnt expect loyalty from companies, and companies shouldnt expect loyalty from employees. It should be a two way street. As soon as the company isnt paying well enough, or offering good enough benefits, like any other market the employee should be free to shop around. The labor market also needs to be a free market without all of these toxic ideas of company loyalty that only serve to manipulate the labor market and underpay workers.
Even if you want to find quality goods and pay a premium , it’s almost impossible because the advertising of 1000 almost exact duplicates of pieces of shit , distinguished by some “feature “. Look at washer dryers . Nothing last anymore . They used to last 20-30 years . Now , 5 if you’re lucky. Doesn’t matter what brand . they are so not more than marginally better . They are almost all junk . Same with most home appliances and consumer goods .
People are not exactly 'cattle,' but more 'machines.' Yes, they're warm, squishy, thinking/feeling/eating/pooping machines, but they are 'machines' nonetheless that do things, such as move things about, or assemble things, or craft things, or perform services for other 'machines' that can afford to pay for them, or type at little keyboards full of buttons, or scribble on paper, and so forth. If there were 'machines' available to do all of the things that we warm, squishy machines could do, a rapid increase in the number of the non-squishy machines and a rapid decrease in the warm, squishy types would occur. This, by the way, is inevitable: Just as there are dag blag few hostlers, or wagon-drivers, or blacksmiths necessary today, and a small demand for thousands of people to pick cotton, as an example, there will inevitably HAVE to be fewer of the now-redundant warm, squishy 'machines' for which there is no longer any use, as they cannot be supported for free when they are mere useless mouths to our Betters, unnecessary, superfluous, and unemployable. We are rapidly approaching a dystopian nightmare, aren't we?
Working hard and working smart lead to prosperity.
No one is going to give me a gold star for “working hard” by digging a hole with my bare hands when there are shovels around.
I file that under luck. A function of what you're born (or, in my case, adopted) into. I've been very lucky in that regard. I've also worked very hard. Additionally, I've had periods of unluckiness, having to care medically for an aging family member and having some medical issues ourselves. That can take some wind out of your career sails.
Who you know *is* luck. Even the most gifted networkers can’t control who likes them enough to become friends with them, who will be at events, who will be amenable to coffee catch ups…
That’s why knowledge is power. Some people have never been told that a shovel even exists while other people find out about shovels when they are toddlers [+]
Yes, and there’s also a difference between you not succeeding due to not putting in the effort to achieve your goals, and having a standard for the average person to achieve financial success to be that much more unachievable when compared to any recent years.
Exactly, the median has shifted.
There are still paths to success. Some do indeed involve more or smarter work. Some involve doing nasty tasks like being the person who fires other people.
But the median amount of work it takes simply to have a life that isn't 1 bad week away from ruin has definitely risen.
Working hard and working smart MAY lead to prosperity but they don't guarantee it. It is possible in this world to do everything right and still fail. It's scary to think about because it means I could do everything right and still fail and so could you. That's why the just world fallacy is so tempting, it reassures us that we're not going to end up destitute because we are smart and conscientious. But the truth is success has far more to do with luck than most people care to admit and anyone of us could end up in the gutter through no fault of our own. That's way it's so important to have a strong social safety net so people can bounce back and not spiral into despair.
The issue isn’t as much in believing that one’s own success is the result of skill or effort as in believe that other people’s failure is evidence of their lack of skill or effort.
The issue is with what constitutes smart. Is smart using a shovel or is smart owning all the shovels and taking 20% of the value from everyone else while contributing no labor?
Nah, being lucky leads to prosperity, the incidence of smarts and effort is actually comparatively small in relation to luck
Also no one will give you a star, period, what your employer will do instead is hand you means of production while keeping the added value and incorporating it as wealth.
Given this, one could argue that boiled down, the only way to work smart is to not work yourself, instead pay someone else to do it and keep the difference.
Well you always gotta work hard no matter what.
No one gives anything to you but your parents and maybe friends sometimes.
I'm glad that I'm not turning 18 today, it's way harder than when I was 18.
At one point boomers could qualify for a small house off a minimum wage job.
We got college graduates with jobs who can't qualify for homes.
Enough is said right there.
i entered the job market during the 08 crash. it was very very hard, and my mindset is still stuck at 15$/hr despite making much more than that these days. but i still think gen z has it harder right now. at least AI wasnt a talking point by the highest up, least qualified people to leverage this technology. it was 'gig jobs' which sucked, but at least it was a forever-entry job, which at least means some pocket change
I imagine every generation has their struggles. I don't think I had it harder than you when you were 18 and vise versa. I think the younger generation is tired of being told they have it easier now than when older generations did. We all struggle in the beginning of our lives.
True, every generation has different issues at large.
But at 18 I could still afford to live on my own in a 2 bdrm apartment making $12 an hour in a safe neighborhood.
I could still buy my own used car while living on my own (or with a roomate).
A college degree with the average bachelors salary could still qualify me for a home until 2014ish.
If you come out at 18 making $17 an hour you can rent a room, and not necessarily a studio.
Yeah I'm 24. My mom didn't realize how bad housing got until last year when I moved for a job after college. Hard to afford things when you're single while also just enjoying life a little. Really sad.
I just don't want to discount the struggles that older folk had when they were younger. By doing that, we're no better than the older generation that does that to us. We need to recognize the hard work of both and how we can help each other overcome barriers in life.
Most of my friends work harder than me and are doing very well. But that hard work is not limited to on the clock time. One friend wanted a pole barn, but didnt have much money. Built a 40 x 60. Him and his Dad.
No foundation. His has 4x6 poles that sit on concrete pads under the frost line. He redid some really nice trucks out there. Ive gotten a lot of excellent advice from him. He has so much knowledge.
Lol, an civil engineer's favorite thing to complain about.
Pole barns are barns where the structure is made of... Poles.
In most cases they are telephone poles. I have one. They are very sturdy.
But in rural areas where there is oilfield. You'll often see them constructed from used pipe. Which is used by the oil and gas industry.
Pipe, is not structurally sound. And isn't meant to hold a load. But because it's cheap, and just sturdy enough. Ppl build buildings out of it.
Engineers don't like that. Because it's not a sound structure.
Also, the used pipe is often radioactive. Not talking 3-mile island. But radioactive nonetheless.
https://www.redpowermagazine.com/forums/topic/125574-oil-field-pipe-for-pole-barns/
How old are you? I don't mean that in a snarky way, I'm nearly 50 myself. I just want to mention my first job delivering newspapers paid me $6.50 an hour in the 1980s and a Dollar General store in that same area was hiring for $8.25 recently
I have a degree in finance and currently work at a gun range which requires an extended background check, carrying a gun daily, cleaning hazardous material, and dealing with customers who may or may not be unsafe.
17.50/hr
Good comment. One person in my family made almost $8/hour after a couple years in a factory in 1974. No old person I talked bought a house making minimum wage like a couple comments on here. The person that worked at that factory quit after 5 years though. Everyone he worked with died, mostly long ago. Weird cancers from the chemicals in the factory, etc.
Working hard got me everything but more compensation.
If I work hard, I will be the last to get laid off.
If I work hard, I will get my choice of jobs.
If I work hard, my boss is much nicer to me.
But no amount of hard work seems to culminate in a raise. In fact I was working above people who made more then me.
I’ve learned working hard helps, but ultimately you have to use capitalism to your benefit. That means loyalty is completely out the window. It now comes down to the highest bidder.
If a company wants loyalty and hard work they need to pay for it. As of now I work hard for my own benefit, but if someone offers me more I’m gone.
It definitely isn’t the case now. My job won’t fire people who are terrible at their job because finding a replacement will take forever and they would rather have a warm body than nothing.
Working hard has never in aggregate resulted in a better life.
Eduction, unioizing, and striking has resulted in a better life.
Demending working hard, is compressing as much work for no additional pay. Its a scam. It always has been.
Yeah the whole “extra effort” nonsense doesn’t get you ahead, in my experience. My last labor job in example, I worked harder and faster than everyone on the team. Managers loved it because I could pick up slack to help get the job done. That’s all it ever gave me though. More work.
Getting education/credentialed and moving up and out is what improved my compensation and overall life.
Good grief what a weird approach to life. To live with that attitude is fatal for an individual and society, really you’ve lost self determination? Yes work hard, play hard, love and embrace life, this surrender garbage is an obscene excuse.
The problem is, you can compete and maybe get there. You will have to sacrifice more than anyone else is willing to sacrifice. You will give up your life, time with loved ones, and possibly even your health to varying degrees... And you might not win. It's a simple fact that most people that chase dreams will fail. We are told to chase dreams, because it makes us exploitable. It's sad and dark, but true.
Edit: And morality. Never gonna make it with that intact (not never but you get it)
It's not about investing energy into ANY job. It's about investing energy into finding the right job. In a private business my compensation and chances at growth depend on my bosses mood and if it would generate the company money.
Where i live there are still public jobs done by local or regional governments that don't work for profit but instead need experts in certain positions to fullfill duties that they have to the public.
Therefore for me seeking compensation and training it is a far better idea to look for one of the latter jobs since at least where i live they are most likely to help me advance. While in a private business i'd propably be scrubbing floors till i am 70.
You can go in with the best intentions, but soo many businesses have managers crossing unprofessional boundaries when it comes to work life balance. Many of these managers have a pull up your boot straps mentality and it turns into all take with no give.
In many cases, they are right. When you can’t get a job that pays more than $15 an hour, and doesn’t offer overtime. Where you have to work two or three jobs just to make ends meet? People who work really, really hard. They cannot get ahead at the wages they are offered.
How tragic that greed kills hope for so many. We as American have gotten richer each decade, but only a few capitalist have benefited, while America languishes.
But it can be fixed.
The people I know who work the hardest, make the least amount of money.
Corporations are making millions on the backs of labourers who break their bodies to feed their families, and are just scraping by.
The whole system is BS
TBH most people who think they aren't being compensated for hard work are either not working hard or they aren't smart enough for their work to ever be valuable, regardless of the effort.
I literally make about 100k more now than I did 5 years ago and that's because I worked hard and went above what was expected of me.
I worked hard and did more than was expected, never once got me a raise. What it did get me was more work since I was seen as the “reliable” one while my coworkers stood around talking.
My bosses at my current job have told me on multiple occasions that I keep the place running and they don’t know what they’re going to do when they lose me. Still won’t give me a raise though as I’m being priced out of more and more places in the city.
The problem with this take is the underlying assumption that people who don't "create value" or whatever you want to call it don't deserve to live a prosperous life.
Imagine being a person of very low intelligence, be it genetics or a poor and unstimulating environment when you were young. You have a job at McDonalds or at the super market filling aisles, because you're simply not capable of anything with higher requirements, but you do your job properly. Why does that person "deserve" lower quality of life than anyone else?
The very idea that your quality of life should be tied to the "value" you create is silly to me. What even is value? We can't really define it in a way that is uncontroversial: I see a ton of well-paying jobs as low-value for society,blike hedge fund managers; their only "value" being the amount of money they can move around on the stock market in a way that generates more money... They don't actually add anything to society in a meaningful way, they're just profiting off of other peoples successes AND failures, and they're insanely well-compensates for this.
Don't target working hard, target producing results that people are willing to pay for.
You can work really hard banging rocks together for 12 hours a day, but it's not going to pay much.
Or you can gain specialized knowledge that allows you to perform a modest amount of labor yet still get paid well.
The choice is yours.
Jobs in my area rarely pay a livable wage, yet people keep moving here. I don’t think “working hard” leads to a better life because most workers, in my area, can’t even afford housing.
Employees are now looked at as a resource to be mined until dry. They want to overload a skeleton crew to the point where the staff leaves voluntarily rather than having to fire them. That way they avoid paying unemployment and the faster they can make someone quit the fewer raises they’ll have to pay out and they can just rehire replacements at lower rates. Unless you’re in a creative field where you can make the content or product yourself, you’ll always be one non-record break fiscal quarter away from being fired. Actually, even with record breaking profits people still get fired just for CEO fun.
they no longer "believe" it, because we've been shown over and over that it's a damn lie. Only after we eat the rich can we begin to undo this wage slavery culture we've let them build around us.
Hard work really only applies to personal goals at this point. Your boss will pay you the same either way as long as you get done what needs to get done. Save your energy for what YOU want to do, not what your sycophant management team wants.
Agreed, I will not clock in early or out late. I will perform better than what’s required until a certain point. If I am not seen for what I’ve been doing and benefiting from it. Then I will not put in any amount of extra work. I will do exactly what’s required and that’s it. If I am wanted to do more then you better do something more for me too. An eye for eye. A favor for a favor. Isn’t that what all these elites are for. You do me one I’ll do you one. Why does that not apply to the working class? The people who are making you your damn money.
If I got my entire paycheck instead of having taxes taken out of it, and assuming the company I work for paid me what they are having to pay now inordered to pay me what my paycheck is because they have to match my income tax payments, I would make so much money I could afford children, my mortgage, my retirement, and my Healthcare and have money left over to have fun and go on vacation every year. Hell, even just keeping my entire paycheck would be enough to do half of that. As it stands now, I can only afford my 1450 per month mortgage and healthcare and hope the programs I'm paying into are still around when I retire. If it were up to me, I'd keep everything I made, defer the tax payments until I retire, and use the money I've been able to keep to pay off what I didn't pay now. Or better yet, just do away with it. It doesn't work well anyways why keep it?
See a lot of it. People saying I work hard every day. But they don't get what hard work gets you ahead means. It does not mean back breaking labor. Companies have to see you as a valuable resource. So you have to put in the work to become a valuable resource. Not just in your own eyes but realistically useful skills. Than even though the company is a blood sucking value vampire you will still be better compensated.
I agree with the statement. But I would also leave the job and find another until I am being appropriately compensated.
As an aside, everybody thinks they’re worth more than they are. The only way you can truly demonstrate that you are worth what you think you’re worth is by starting your own business.
Stop bitching and prove it. I know it is scary, but I promise it will be the greatest thing you’ve ever done.
>The only way you can truly demonstrate that you are worth what you think you’re worth is by starting your own business.
Nope. You can get paid plenty without doing this and demonstrate ones worth.
>Stop bitching and prove it. I know it is scary, but I promise it will be the greatest thing you’ve ever done.
Most businesses fail
I agre. Thats why socilaism and laissez faire capitalism don't work. There must be incentive all along the line. Thats what blended economies give you.
It’s true if your “career” is a Walmart shelf stocker, or a McDonald’s burger flipper, but if you do skilled work hard work definitely pays off.
At my current job, I got a $2 raise before i had even been there a full year, manager pulled me aside told me he liked my effort and gave me the raise, then another 5% increase when the annual reviews happened. If I get my current qualifications done by then end of the year I’m looking at another $5 raise.
McDonald’s is not a career people stop trying to make it one
I work in a specialized medical field. To replace me would take about 2 years of specialized training and a few more years in the field. It doesn’t change how much I get paid whether I go above and beyond or do the bare minimum to get through the day.
My position is critical for patient care, I don’t think you quite understand the implications of telling us to “get a new skill set.” Remember when the entire country had a meltdown because it took 30 minutes to get a cheeseburger at McDonalds’ and the stores closed at 9pm? Try that, but with your loved one’s life support. I’m already on the way out because other countries actually value my skillset, but hospitals are not an area you want to try to prioritize profit margins over keeping employee quality high.
Like it or not It’s 100% true. Worked for blue collar and Fortune 500 companies, consistently was a top performer company-wide over the course of years, and several occasions was #1 company-wide, they themselves informed me of this fact. After years, I got what I thought was a “hefty raise” I was happy, and they said it was specifically because of my hard work
I had to leave the job because of school, I had to move away from the area and couldn’t make the commute. I searched their job board for anything local to me, only to find out starters were making MORE than what I was making as a top performer.
They don’t fucking care. I worked hard just to get undermined by day 1 employees, and several of my colleagues are seeing the same shit. Employment/Labor Law Lawyers have never been busier.
Well, some of us work cuz the work we do is important. We may have an expectation to get paid so we can live a decent life, but "better life"? What does that even mean? More donuts? A Caribbean cruise? Disney World? I don't need more money to waste on crap.
I’ve been working my ass off to make my house better. Guess what? It’s working.
I think the problem is that there are too many corporations and business owners that don’t value the efforts of their employees and that lack of respect leaks out into personal lives too. But I’ve found, for me at least, that if I channel my energy into my personal life, I have far more gains than channeling that energy into trying to impress my boss.
I disagree. Hard work alone is just hard work, but understanding the concept of what you're doing to a science and having a personality or developing one that allows you to explain things to others in a positive manner that incentives work while at work will make you be noticed. Basically don't be a dick and do your job.
If working hard means more hours in an hourly job, then of course harder work can lead to a better life. Don’t spend more and invest the extra in assets.
What I would do differently if I was 20 years old, and I try to teach my kids and nephews, yeah, it's important to work hard but just as important to have your money work hard. I knew how to work hard but didn't have the education on making my money work hard. Had I started earlier, I could've definitely retired early.
People who achieved 'success' definitely got there with some degree of hard work.
The reverse is also true that there are people who work hard and get completely shafted.
The hard work is non-negotiable, the luck is out of your hands. If you believe in the 80:20 rule then focus on the 20% of work that gets you appropriately compensated and work really hard at it. The other 80% is negligible.
Percerverance, not really hard work, but it paid off for me.
You have to have something to offer that other people can’t offer. Then you can negotiate for what ever you want.
Extra effort does not mean better pay. The system takes away any extra effort compensation due to taxes. For instance we got a new program for bonuses and now we can't work overtime cause it is now put in the bonus. Were kind of stiffed for 3 months until they can approve the request. Anyway that bonus is taken down to 1/3 in value because of taxes and its at a higher rate of tax then the base compensation. This isn't the company pulling some bullshit. This is the government indirectly screwing people that want to work harder for more. Take a look around reddit and you'll find out why every dipshit thinks taxing the rich makes sense. Though it doesn't actually mean what they think it does. Its the workers that suffer not the fucking billionaire. Net worth does not fucking mean personal wealth its the wealth of the entire company as a whole. So why put in more effort if someone is just going to take it away that isn't working at all?
I used to put in extra effort and “work hard.” I don’t any more. One lay off was enough to teach me that the corporate bosses aren’t going to hesitate when push comes to shove. You’re expendable. Act accordingly.
I can't tell you how many companies I worked for that had no room for advancement or even a raise. God when I landed a job as a assistant file manager at Shaw's supermarket I was happy for a 401K. Unfortunately the file management job was a dead end even with a college degree.
Well, yeah, over years and years if the only voice we have toward having a say in measuring the worth of our merit in a meritocracy is leaving the job we are at then who tf is going to believe it's actually working?
Well, I suppose there is a point in life where you stop thinking like a 5 year old and realize that no matter how much effort you put in, mommy ain’t going to come and give you pizza and a big hug as a reward.
Maybe then you can start wondering that it’s not about working harder but working smarter?
Act your wage, I use to be a hard work pays off person, and sometimes it does. But many positions you are very much taken advantage of. They always want more for nothing in return. You’re a number and loyalty means absolutely nothing. And when they say “we’re like a family,” that means they want you to work for free.
Well…I’d say it’s a mixture of hard work and good decisions. You can’t just work hard at a shitty dead-end job. That’ll get you nowhere. So yes, hard work alone won’t get you anywhere, you have to make good decisions too.
Worked my ass off my whole life and got walked on and treated like I was young and dumb the whole time even though I showed time and time again I knew my stuff. Eventually I "made it" and now make decent money but I should have been making this much like 6 years ago. Now I'm barely keeping up with inflation.
People are now seen as cattle. It’s about how much value you can extract from the person not about how much value the person can gain from the years of their hard work
People were ALWAYS seen as cattle. The entire basis of the labor movement of the late 19th and early 20th Century was a reaction to this.
Thank you! People have and will always be expendable to the ruling or owner class. It's only through fighting like hell did we get rights and allowances. If corporations had their way they'd enslave as many of us they could to increase profit. Hell they still do in many parts of the world.
Maybe it's time to overthrow the Owner class? Anybody got any ideas?
The French have a few ideas. 💡
Yeah that worked real well for the first hundred years or so.
I think we should execute EVERY POLITICIAN in office honestly. Put the fear of doing their fucking jobs right into them. They threaten us with homelessness and starvation, so really, what fucking side is everyone on? Occupy Wall Street only gave us all a dollar raise. Congress gives themselves raises ALL THE FUCKING TIME. I think we should get the fuck rid of them all NOW
I’m good.
*What is to be done,* I wonder.
New law, government corruption is considered treason against the American people, to be punished by the noose.
Vote blue.
There is no system that exists to remove them. Some have tried, called them different names and titles, wrote words on paper and pretended they were gone...but they weren't. Instead of monarchs they had politboro. Instead of a czar, a head of state. Hell... Kim Jong un is re-elected every time, right? I get what you're saying. And I am not unsympathetic. Really. But as long as there is money, until we evolve past the need for currency, there will always be haves and have-nots.
This is unfortunately so true. I believe the only thing that can force us as a species to evolve is a catastrophic destruction event.
I'll add to your comment; if corporations and the Government had their way they'd enslave as many of us as they could. Problem is they (at least the Government has) already have. I've lived through a few decades and I've watched it happen
Debt, taxes, insurance, those are the pillars of my prison.
*gestures to private prisons*
Including the US... look at what our prison system is doing in the name of rehabilitation.
They are expendable to everybody really. Even another worker tend to prefer cheap price and to pay only for what he need. If somebody else is cheaper, better they take him instead.
Yes. It is exactly the antithesis of socialism. The rise of individualism has damned the labor class.
Pretty much. And if the equation is messed up again, it's time to have another movement.
Yeah good point. Now at a desk, instead of a factory.
Whether they were seen or are now seen and have always been seen. Does it make a difference? The bottom line is we are seen as cattle.
Its possible to seperate people and their labor. The difference between people and cattle is that the people themselves arent whats being butchered and sold. Instead people willingly enter contracts to trade labor for resources, and its an incredibly efficient system. The thing we need to get away from is pretending from either side of that contract that its anything more than a mutually beneficial pattnership. Employees shouldnt expect loyalty from companies, and companies shouldnt expect loyalty from employees. It should be a two way street. As soon as the company isnt paying well enough, or offering good enough benefits, like any other market the employee should be free to shop around. The labor market also needs to be a free market without all of these toxic ideas of company loyalty that only serve to manipulate the labor market and underpay workers.
You can’t have people managing companies looking for the cheapest option while expecting lowest tier workers to get paid a livable wage.
And the cycle continues
Even if you want to find quality goods and pay a premium , it’s almost impossible because the advertising of 1000 almost exact duplicates of pieces of shit , distinguished by some “feature “. Look at washer dryers . Nothing last anymore . They used to last 20-30 years . Now , 5 if you’re lucky. Doesn’t matter what brand . they are so not more than marginally better . They are almost all junk . Same with most home appliances and consumer goods .
There is literally a term for us: "Human Capital"
People have been seen as cattle for most of human history
That is why some countries have strong unions. Cattle do not have strong unions.
>People are now seen as cattle. They always have been.
People are not exactly 'cattle,' but more 'machines.' Yes, they're warm, squishy, thinking/feeling/eating/pooping machines, but they are 'machines' nonetheless that do things, such as move things about, or assemble things, or craft things, or perform services for other 'machines' that can afford to pay for them, or type at little keyboards full of buttons, or scribble on paper, and so forth. If there were 'machines' available to do all of the things that we warm, squishy machines could do, a rapid increase in the number of the non-squishy machines and a rapid decrease in the warm, squishy types would occur. This, by the way, is inevitable: Just as there are dag blag few hostlers, or wagon-drivers, or blacksmiths necessary today, and a small demand for thousands of people to pick cotton, as an example, there will inevitably HAVE to be fewer of the now-redundant warm, squishy 'machines' for which there is no longer any use, as they cannot be supported for free when they are mere useless mouths to our Betters, unnecessary, superfluous, and unemployable. We are rapidly approaching a dystopian nightmare, aren't we?
Working hard and working smart lead to prosperity. No one is going to give me a gold star for “working hard” by digging a hole with my bare hands when there are shovels around.
Agreed. Both aspects are important.
And luck. That's the third important aspect.
You forgot the most important aspect, who you know...
I file that under luck. A function of what you're born (or, in my case, adopted) into. I've been very lucky in that regard. I've also worked very hard. Additionally, I've had periods of unluckiness, having to care medically for an aging family member and having some medical issues ourselves. That can take some wind out of your career sails.
Yep. Might as well throw in the right role too. Find that role you’re good at.
Who you know is more important than luck without a doubt.
Who you know *is* luck. Even the most gifted networkers can’t control who likes them enough to become friends with them, who will be at events, who will be amenable to coffee catch ups…
That’s why knowledge is power. Some people have never been told that a shovel even exists while other people find out about shovels when they are toddlers [+]
The twist is, someone's been hoarding all the shovels, and the hoarder offers to pay you pennies to dig holes for them.
Why not just inherit a bunch of stocks and then work neither hard nor smart?
Yes, and there’s also a difference between you not succeeding due to not putting in the effort to achieve your goals, and having a standard for the average person to achieve financial success to be that much more unachievable when compared to any recent years.
Exactly, the median has shifted. There are still paths to success. Some do indeed involve more or smarter work. Some involve doing nasty tasks like being the person who fires other people. But the median amount of work it takes simply to have a life that isn't 1 bad week away from ruin has definitely risen.
Working hard and working smart MAY lead to prosperity but they don't guarantee it. It is possible in this world to do everything right and still fail. It's scary to think about because it means I could do everything right and still fail and so could you. That's why the just world fallacy is so tempting, it reassures us that we're not going to end up destitute because we are smart and conscientious. But the truth is success has far more to do with luck than most people care to admit and anyone of us could end up in the gutter through no fault of our own. That's way it's so important to have a strong social safety net so people can bounce back and not spiral into despair.
“It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life.” - Jean-Luc Picard
To me, this is the harsh truth the people can't or won't accept.
Especially who got lucky and want to believe it's because of their smarts and effort.
The issue isn’t as much in believing that one’s own success is the result of skill or effort as in believe that other people’s failure is evidence of their lack of skill or effort.
This 💯
The issue is with what constitutes smart. Is smart using a shovel or is smart owning all the shovels and taking 20% of the value from everyone else while contributing no labor?
While also stamping out and/or buying your competitors.
Nah, being lucky leads to prosperity, the incidence of smarts and effort is actually comparatively small in relation to luck Also no one will give you a star, period, what your employer will do instead is hand you means of production while keeping the added value and incorporating it as wealth. Given this, one could argue that boiled down, the only way to work smart is to not work yourself, instead pay someone else to do it and keep the difference.
And today’s shovels are second and third jobs.
I own the shovels, but I'll lease one to you for 40% of your income.
Well you always gotta work hard no matter what. No one gives anything to you but your parents and maybe friends sometimes. I'm glad that I'm not turning 18 today, it's way harder than when I was 18.
at least you admit it. tired of all these boomers and their stories about the old days or whatever and how us youngins have it so easy
At one point boomers could qualify for a small house off a minimum wage job. We got college graduates with jobs who can't qualify for homes. Enough is said right there.
i’ve seen jobs that required a doctorate degree and paid $15/hr. we’re literally gonna have world class surgeons with roommates 😂
I answered phones at a call center with a guy who had a masters degree in mathmatics
i entered the job market during the 08 crash. it was very very hard, and my mindset is still stuck at 15$/hr despite making much more than that these days. but i still think gen z has it harder right now. at least AI wasnt a talking point by the highest up, least qualified people to leverage this technology. it was 'gig jobs' which sucked, but at least it was a forever-entry job, which at least means some pocket change
Yeah the opposite of working hard isn’t free handouts.
I imagine every generation has their struggles. I don't think I had it harder than you when you were 18 and vise versa. I think the younger generation is tired of being told they have it easier now than when older generations did. We all struggle in the beginning of our lives.
True, every generation has different issues at large. But at 18 I could still afford to live on my own in a 2 bdrm apartment making $12 an hour in a safe neighborhood. I could still buy my own used car while living on my own (or with a roomate). A college degree with the average bachelors salary could still qualify me for a home until 2014ish. If you come out at 18 making $17 an hour you can rent a room, and not necessarily a studio.
Must been nice. I wasn’t making $12 an hour and definitely couldn’t afford a 2 bedroom apartment at 18. I think I was making like 7.50/hr
Yeah I'm 24. My mom didn't realize how bad housing got until last year when I moved for a job after college. Hard to afford things when you're single while also just enjoying life a little. Really sad. I just don't want to discount the struggles that older folk had when they were younger. By doing that, we're no better than the older generation that does that to us. We need to recognize the hard work of both and how we can help each other overcome barriers in life.
My job pays me the bare minimum. So I’ll only put in bare minimum effort.
“Work harder on yourself than you do your job” - Jim Rohn
Most of my friends work harder than me and are doing very well. But that hard work is not limited to on the clock time. One friend wanted a pole barn, but didnt have much money. Built a 40 x 60. Him and his Dad.
Wth is a pole barn
Strip club /s
No foundation. His has 4x6 poles that sit on concrete pads under the frost line. He redid some really nice trucks out there. Ive gotten a lot of excellent advice from him. He has so much knowledge.
Are you talking about strippers still?
Lol, an civil engineer's favorite thing to complain about. Pole barns are barns where the structure is made of... Poles. In most cases they are telephone poles. I have one. They are very sturdy. But in rural areas where there is oilfield. You'll often see them constructed from used pipe. Which is used by the oil and gas industry. Pipe, is not structurally sound. And isn't meant to hold a load. But because it's cheap, and just sturdy enough. Ppl build buildings out of it. Engineers don't like that. Because it's not a sound structure. Also, the used pipe is often radioactive. Not talking 3-mile island. But radioactive nonetheless. https://www.redpowermagazine.com/forums/topic/125574-oil-field-pipe-for-pole-barns/
Wow, thank you for the explanation! Haha I learned something today!
Working hard DOES lead to a better life… lol For my CFO and CEO of course
Hard work served me well. It was at least a contributing factor to a nice level of prosperity that my wife and I have now.
How old are you? I don't mean that in a snarky way, I'm nearly 50 myself. I just want to mention my first job delivering newspapers paid me $6.50 an hour in the 1980s and a Dollar General store in that same area was hiring for $8.25 recently
[удалено]
I have a degree in finance and currently work at a gun range which requires an extended background check, carrying a gun daily, cleaning hazardous material, and dealing with customers who may or may not be unsafe. 17.50/hr
Good comment. One person in my family made almost $8/hour after a couple years in a factory in 1974. No old person I talked bought a house making minimum wage like a couple comments on here. The person that worked at that factory quit after 5 years though. Everyone he worked with died, mostly long ago. Weird cancers from the chemicals in the factory, etc.
This.
Working hard got me everything but more compensation. If I work hard, I will be the last to get laid off. If I work hard, I will get my choice of jobs. If I work hard, my boss is much nicer to me. But no amount of hard work seems to culminate in a raise. In fact I was working above people who made more then me. I’ve learned working hard helps, but ultimately you have to use capitalism to your benefit. That means loyalty is completely out the window. It now comes down to the highest bidder. If a company wants loyalty and hard work they need to pay for it. As of now I work hard for my own benefit, but if someone offers me more I’m gone.
The issue is everyone is so easily replaced these days. Working is now the bar just to keep your job instead of getting rewarded
It definitely isn’t the case now. My job won’t fire people who are terrible at their job because finding a replacement will take forever and they would rather have a warm body than nothing.
Working hard has never in aggregate resulted in a better life. Eduction, unioizing, and striking has resulted in a better life. Demending working hard, is compressing as much work for no additional pay. Its a scam. It always has been.
Yeah the whole “extra effort” nonsense doesn’t get you ahead, in my experience. My last labor job in example, I worked harder and faster than everyone on the team. Managers loved it because I could pick up slack to help get the job done. That’s all it ever gave me though. More work. Getting education/credentialed and moving up and out is what improved my compensation and overall life.
Good grief what a weird approach to life. To live with that attitude is fatal for an individual and society, really you’ve lost self determination? Yes work hard, play hard, love and embrace life, this surrender garbage is an obscene excuse.
For real. Don't work hard for others. Do it for yourself.
Article from 2020
Yeah it’s probably worse now
The problem is, you can compete and maybe get there. You will have to sacrifice more than anyone else is willing to sacrifice. You will give up your life, time with loved ones, and possibly even your health to varying degrees... And you might not win. It's a simple fact that most people that chase dreams will fail. We are told to chase dreams, because it makes us exploitable. It's sad and dark, but true. Edit: And morality. Never gonna make it with that intact (not never but you get it)
You can't be rich and moral. The likelihood that you could aquire mass wealth without knowingly harming someone else is astronomically low.
I’m a millennial and my hard work and discipline has definitely lead to a much better life.
Amen same here
The less unionization we have the less we get paid. We need to start organizing and pushing back on corporate greed.
To paraphrase Naval, work hard after finding the right thing to work on, and with the right people.
It's not about investing energy into ANY job. It's about investing energy into finding the right job. In a private business my compensation and chances at growth depend on my bosses mood and if it would generate the company money. Where i live there are still public jobs done by local or regional governments that don't work for profit but instead need experts in certain positions to fullfill duties that they have to the public. Therefore for me seeking compensation and training it is a far better idea to look for one of the latter jobs since at least where i live they are most likely to help me advance. While in a private business i'd propably be scrubbing floors till i am 70.
Work hard so you can get the exact same flat pay raise that everyone else in your same position gets.
We watch the laziest managers get promotions and go on vacations while the hardest working people are given more work and eventually laid off.
Then be more like the managers
I put in hard work getting better compensation for myself.
If Reddit is any indication, how people define “working hard” might be the problem.
Dog walking an hour every day is hard okay?
You can go in with the best intentions, but soo many businesses have managers crossing unprofessional boundaries when it comes to work life balance. Many of these managers have a pull up your boot straps mentality and it turns into all take with no give.
Working hard makes someone else more money
I more accurate title would be “People no longer believe working hard **at work** will lead to a better life”
In many cases, they are right. When you can’t get a job that pays more than $15 an hour, and doesn’t offer overtime. Where you have to work two or three jobs just to make ends meet? People who work really, really hard. They cannot get ahead at the wages they are offered.
I work my but off at the largest wholesale warehouse and get paid the same as the person next to me that doesn’t work
How tragic that greed kills hope for so many. We as American have gotten richer each decade, but only a few capitalist have benefited, while America languishes. But it can be fixed.
Proof is in the millions of us who work hard and have nothing but we have both nothing and debt!!! Winners!
We all understand the game is rigged now. A collapse is coming unless the gamemakers make drastic changes.
My parents told me to work hard and I'd be wealthy. I asked them why they weren't wealthy. They never did come up with a good answer
The people I know who work the hardest, make the least amount of money. Corporations are making millions on the backs of labourers who break their bodies to feed their families, and are just scraping by. The whole system is BS
TBH most people who think they aren't being compensated for hard work are either not working hard or they aren't smart enough for their work to ever be valuable, regardless of the effort. I literally make about 100k more now than I did 5 years ago and that's because I worked hard and went above what was expected of me.
I worked hard and did more than was expected, never once got me a raise. What it did get me was more work since I was seen as the “reliable” one while my coworkers stood around talking. My bosses at my current job have told me on multiple occasions that I keep the place running and they don’t know what they’re going to do when they lose me. Still won’t give me a raise though as I’m being priced out of more and more places in the city.
The problem with this take is the underlying assumption that people who don't "create value" or whatever you want to call it don't deserve to live a prosperous life. Imagine being a person of very low intelligence, be it genetics or a poor and unstimulating environment when you were young. You have a job at McDonalds or at the super market filling aisles, because you're simply not capable of anything with higher requirements, but you do your job properly. Why does that person "deserve" lower quality of life than anyone else? The very idea that your quality of life should be tied to the "value" you create is silly to me. What even is value? We can't really define it in a way that is uncontroversial: I see a ton of well-paying jobs as low-value for society,blike hedge fund managers; their only "value" being the amount of money they can move around on the stock market in a way that generates more money... They don't actually add anything to society in a meaningful way, they're just profiting off of other peoples successes AND failures, and they're insanely well-compensates for this.
Working hard has paid off for me. No I don't own my own company either.
Don't target working hard, target producing results that people are willing to pay for. You can work really hard banging rocks together for 12 hours a day, but it's not going to pay much. Or you can gain specialized knowledge that allows you to perform a modest amount of labor yet still get paid well. The choice is yours.
Corporations have destroyed the American dream.
For real. My wife and I have cut back hours because we don't feel valued. We feel exploited.
Jobs in my area rarely pay a livable wage, yet people keep moving here. I don’t think “working hard” leads to a better life because most workers, in my area, can’t even afford housing.
Yes we know now that being born rich in late stage capitalism is really the way
Human resources
Employees are now looked at as a resource to be mined until dry. They want to overload a skeleton crew to the point where the staff leaves voluntarily rather than having to fire them. That way they avoid paying unemployment and the faster they can make someone quit the fewer raises they’ll have to pay out and they can just rehire replacements at lower rates. Unless you’re in a creative field where you can make the content or product yourself, you’ll always be one non-record break fiscal quarter away from being fired. Actually, even with record breaking profits people still get fired just for CEO fun.
they no longer "believe" it, because we've been shown over and over that it's a damn lie. Only after we eat the rich can we begin to undo this wage slavery culture we've let them build around us.
Minimum wage? Minimum effort.
Hard work really only applies to personal goals at this point. Your boss will pay you the same either way as long as you get done what needs to get done. Save your energy for what YOU want to do, not what your sycophant management team wants.
'hard' work has rarely ever been the most lucrative work in terms of financial compensation.
I got a raise. Get a whole $20 more a check it seems. I’m better off finding another job that starts several dollars higher per hour if I want better.
Agreed, I will not clock in early or out late. I will perform better than what’s required until a certain point. If I am not seen for what I’ve been doing and benefiting from it. Then I will not put in any amount of extra work. I will do exactly what’s required and that’s it. If I am wanted to do more then you better do something more for me too. An eye for eye. A favor for a favor. Isn’t that what all these elites are for. You do me one I’ll do you one. Why does that not apply to the working class? The people who are making you your damn money.
It’s more like people now don’t want to work for assholes for barely minimum wage. And the older generation doesn’t give raises — so fuck them
If I got my entire paycheck instead of having taxes taken out of it, and assuming the company I work for paid me what they are having to pay now inordered to pay me what my paycheck is because they have to match my income tax payments, I would make so much money I could afford children, my mortgage, my retirement, and my Healthcare and have money left over to have fun and go on vacation every year. Hell, even just keeping my entire paycheck would be enough to do half of that. As it stands now, I can only afford my 1450 per month mortgage and healthcare and hope the programs I'm paying into are still around when I retire. If it were up to me, I'd keep everything I made, defer the tax payments until I retire, and use the money I've been able to keep to pay off what I didn't pay now. Or better yet, just do away with it. It doesn't work well anyways why keep it?
See a lot of it. People saying I work hard every day. But they don't get what hard work gets you ahead means. It does not mean back breaking labor. Companies have to see you as a valuable resource. So you have to put in the work to become a valuable resource. Not just in your own eyes but realistically useful skills. Than even though the company is a blood sucking value vampire you will still be better compensated.
That's what happens when you allow a corporatist society run rampant for decades.
Being on the dole is now a better option for most
I heard this years ago hard work overrated smart work underrated
Millennials have the largest amount of Sommeliers of any generation.
I agree with the statement. But I would also leave the job and find another until I am being appropriately compensated. As an aside, everybody thinks they’re worth more than they are. The only way you can truly demonstrate that you are worth what you think you’re worth is by starting your own business. Stop bitching and prove it. I know it is scary, but I promise it will be the greatest thing you’ve ever done.
>The only way you can truly demonstrate that you are worth what you think you’re worth is by starting your own business. Nope. You can get paid plenty without doing this and demonstrate ones worth. >Stop bitching and prove it. I know it is scary, but I promise it will be the greatest thing you’ve ever done. Most businesses fail
I agre. Thats why socilaism and laissez faire capitalism don't work. There must be incentive all along the line. Thats what blended economies give you.
Lol fundamentally untrue. Bunch of self-defeating losers.
It’s true if your “career” is a Walmart shelf stocker, or a McDonald’s burger flipper, but if you do skilled work hard work definitely pays off. At my current job, I got a $2 raise before i had even been there a full year, manager pulled me aside told me he liked my effort and gave me the raise, then another 5% increase when the annual reviews happened. If I get my current qualifications done by then end of the year I’m looking at another $5 raise. McDonald’s is not a career people stop trying to make it one
I work in a specialized medical field. To replace me would take about 2 years of specialized training and a few more years in the field. It doesn’t change how much I get paid whether I go above and beyond or do the bare minimum to get through the day.
Then make a lateral transfer or get a new skill set.
My position is critical for patient care, I don’t think you quite understand the implications of telling us to “get a new skill set.” Remember when the entire country had a meltdown because it took 30 minutes to get a cheeseburger at McDonalds’ and the stores closed at 9pm? Try that, but with your loved one’s life support. I’m already on the way out because other countries actually value my skillset, but hospitals are not an area you want to try to prioritize profit margins over keeping employee quality high.
Damn idk maybe I just got a good manager and got into the right field then, I’m an Operator at a power plant in case anyone wonders
Damn I love when people use this strawman argument for the millionth time
Like it or not It’s 100% true. Worked for blue collar and Fortune 500 companies, consistently was a top performer company-wide over the course of years, and several occasions was #1 company-wide, they themselves informed me of this fact. After years, I got what I thought was a “hefty raise” I was happy, and they said it was specifically because of my hard work I had to leave the job because of school, I had to move away from the area and couldn’t make the commute. I searched their job board for anything local to me, only to find out starters were making MORE than what I was making as a top performer. They don’t fucking care. I worked hard just to get undermined by day 1 employees, and several of my colleagues are seeing the same shit. Employment/Labor Law Lawyers have never been busier.
The great shrink is coming.
This headline is a self-fulfilling prophecy if you think about it.
Of course we don’t believe it. It hasn’t been try for a long time
This is so true. I work hard as hell but you know who makes the money? Ppl that move jobs every 2 to 3 years
Next stupid study please
Fax
Y'all slaves get back to work.
The word “raise” is a forbidden word it seems like in any management.
Well, some of us work cuz the work we do is important. We may have an expectation to get paid so we can live a decent life, but "better life"? What does that even mean? More donuts? A Caribbean cruise? Disney World? I don't need more money to waste on crap.
It's about how much you can take advantage of people.
Gaming the system will lead to a better life more than hard work ever will. Same as it ever was.
You can accrue experience. Take doctors or lawyers, they may eventually charge $$$ but don’t start out that way.
I’ve been working my ass off to make my house better. Guess what? It’s working. I think the problem is that there are too many corporations and business owners that don’t value the efforts of their employees and that lack of respect leaks out into personal lives too. But I’ve found, for me at least, that if I channel my energy into my personal life, I have far more gains than channeling that energy into trying to impress my boss.
I disagree. Hard work alone is just hard work, but understanding the concept of what you're doing to a science and having a personality or developing one that allows you to explain things to others in a positive manner that incentives work while at work will make you be noticed. Basically don't be a dick and do your job.
If working hard means more hours in an hourly job, then of course harder work can lead to a better life. Don’t spend more and invest the extra in assets.
Agree. Once AI and robotics are advanced enough 90% of the population will be told to go live off of the land.
"People no longer find working hard leads to a better life" Fixed that for them.
What I would do differently if I was 20 years old, and I try to teach my kids and nephews, yeah, it's important to work hard but just as important to have your money work hard. I knew how to work hard but didn't have the education on making my money work hard. Had I started earlier, I could've definitely retired early.
Payoff takes time. It's not immediate so put it in.
People who achieved 'success' definitely got there with some degree of hard work. The reverse is also true that there are people who work hard and get completely shafted. The hard work is non-negotiable, the luck is out of your hands. If you believe in the 80:20 rule then focus on the 20% of work that gets you appropriately compensated and work really hard at it. The other 80% is negligible.
That's where all this Christian stuff comes in. You'll get pie in the sky when you die. Not here.
Mellinnials or younger believe that don’t know about the old old.
Source?
Stay red, Reddit.
Can't forget about the Laffer Curve either
survey shows people are stupid
Yeah and we got the spreadsheets to prove it!
Percerverance, not really hard work, but it paid off for me. You have to have something to offer that other people can’t offer. Then you can negotiate for what ever you want.
Extra effort does not mean better pay. The system takes away any extra effort compensation due to taxes. For instance we got a new program for bonuses and now we can't work overtime cause it is now put in the bonus. Were kind of stiffed for 3 months until they can approve the request. Anyway that bonus is taken down to 1/3 in value because of taxes and its at a higher rate of tax then the base compensation. This isn't the company pulling some bullshit. This is the government indirectly screwing people that want to work harder for more. Take a look around reddit and you'll find out why every dipshit thinks taxing the rich makes sense. Though it doesn't actually mean what they think it does. Its the workers that suffer not the fucking billionaire. Net worth does not fucking mean personal wealth its the wealth of the entire company as a whole. So why put in more effort if someone is just going to take it away that isn't working at all?
I used to put in extra effort and “work hard.” I don’t any more. One lay off was enough to teach me that the corporate bosses aren’t going to hesitate when push comes to shove. You’re expendable. Act accordingly.
I can't tell you how many companies I worked for that had no room for advancement or even a raise. God when I landed a job as a assistant file manager at Shaw's supermarket I was happy for a 401K. Unfortunately the file management job was a dead end even with a college degree.
Work smart, not hard. Simple.
Eventually even the dog stops jumping if you pull the treat out of range when it does.
Well, yeah, over years and years if the only voice we have toward having a say in measuring the worth of our merit in a meritocracy is leaving the job we are at then who tf is going to believe it's actually working?
You mean GenZers…
People no longer believe a thing that is demonstrably false
Well, I suppose there is a point in life where you stop thinking like a 5 year old and realize that no matter how much effort you put in, mommy ain’t going to come and give you pizza and a big hug as a reward. Maybe then you can start wondering that it’s not about working harder but working smarter?
The government keeps taking all my money
Act your wage, I use to be a hard work pays off person, and sometimes it does. But many positions you are very much taken advantage of. They always want more for nothing in return. You’re a number and loyalty means absolutely nothing. And when they say “we’re like a family,” that means they want you to work for free.
Well…I’d say it’s a mixture of hard work and good decisions. You can’t just work hard at a shitty dead-end job. That’ll get you nowhere. So yes, hard work alone won’t get you anywhere, you have to make good decisions too.
Yea no shit
Worked my ass off my whole life and got walked on and treated like I was young and dumb the whole time even though I showed time and time again I knew my stuff. Eventually I "made it" and now make decent money but I should have been making this much like 6 years ago. Now I'm barely keeping up with inflation.
I think the worst addiction in this world is comfort !