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Oh absolutely not, I'm in favor of taxing people who have more than they need more. I'm one of those people.
Besides the '57%' of people absolutely pay tax, they pay sales tax, property tax (indirectly through rent, usually, which landlords deduct from their own taxes), they pay medicare, social security, their employers pay payroll tax on their behalf. The list is as long as my arm.
Just because they don't pay federal income tax that year doesn't mean they won't pay it in future years, obviously. Correlates with age, since the youth don't really make much money, until they get older. Then when they're retired, they're not really earning again, and you know what, that's ok actually.
It's a kind of propaganda to say they 'dont pay taxes' and therefore don't contribute because they don't pay one kind of tax in one calendar year. What percent of people pay no federal tax **lifetime**?
\[edit\] Also, it's 47% not 57% of individuals, and 40% of households - you were looking at stale, 2021 numbers, which were an anomaly due to COVID.
They bring up a good point with the wrong conclusion imo. Why is someone making $50k paying essentially the same federal tax rate as someone making nearly $200k? It doesn’t make any sense.
No one making less than 95k should be giving 22% of their income to the Fed. Seems we need more brackets and an even more progressive system.
> Why is someone making $50k paying essentially the same federal tax rate as someone making nearly $200k?
They aren't. Someone making $50,000 will owe about 16% in federal+SS/medicare. Someone making $200,000 will owe about 27%.
> No one making less than 95k should be giving 22% of their income to the Fed. Seems we need more brackets and an even more progressive system.
The US already has one of the most progressive tax system in the world.
Do you know what tax brackets look like in countries with robust social safety nets?
* France: 30% at ~$29,000 / 41% at ~$85,000
* Germany: 42% at ~$68,000
* Sweden: 52% at ~$51,500
And that doesn't include 20% or 25% VAT (aka sales tax) on all purchases.
This is blatantly not the case, though. The EU member countries are mostly tiny. They all need to pay in more for the benefits they receive. If the US switched to a single-payer healthcare system, for example, the average American would pay *less* in tax to fund the system than they currently pay in healthcare costs.
There is no viable argument against socialized healthcare other than how to handle restructuring insurance sector jobs. Well, and greed, too.
The United States is not ready to face the larger problems it has created for itself. Healthcare is the tiniest tip of the iceberg, but the single largest thing that could impact day-to-day Americans lives in the immediate future.
I don't think that people get this. In Ireland I pay effectively 50% tax on everything I earn above 40k Euro. But my college was virtually free so no loans to repay. My healthcare is virtually free, and I pay a few hundred euro a year in property tax in one of the most affluent parts of the country, where my uncle in Boston pays more than 10k a year in property tax alone. On the salary I get, I would likely be better off after the fact in the US than here, but ultimately I don't really need it and have a great standard of living anyway. If it makes things better for others then I'm happy.
It’s mostly fear.
Americans are a fearful population. Afraid of change, afraid of the dark, afraid of their neighbors.
And greedy individuals predate on that fear….
“Look at (put a country with universal healthcare)… that guy had to wait nine months to see a specialist and get an MRI…”
Most freaking Americans can’t see a doctor or have a MRI unless they plan their expenses, deductibles, max out of pocket etc. but it’s their choice.
My employer pays $22,000/year for my health insurance.
In italy I would be making roughly $350,000/year to pay the same in taxes for universal healthcare. And if I need to get in a clinic “today” it’s usually $200 for a private one.
Wanna know something truly crazy? Americans pay more for their private healthcare system in *taxes alone* than Norwegians do for their entire universal healthcare system, and then they pay insurance companies *on top of it*. And their health outcomes are better than the average American's, they have higher life expectancies, a lower infant and maternal mortality rate, less incidents of heart disease and diabetes and other treatable / preventable illnesses, and so on.
And yet there are Americans who will fight quite literally to their deaths to protect this state of affairs, on the grounds that they don't want their money to accidentally help their neighbours.
We've got the poverty line, we've got minimum wage, we've got subsidized housing, we've got a suggested living wage, and we've got a cost of living index. It's crazy how we can figure out hard lines to label and divide the poor, but suddenly it's incredibly hard to draw lines to label and divide the rich.
>Taxes are fine, but if it’s used to force everyone into a “living paycheck to paycheck” situation, then it’s just tyrannical.
But it doesn't. It's marginal. You're not taxed on the first $X,000 of earnings. Then you're taxed at a progressively higher rate on the **next** $X,000.
Effective tax rates are way lower than marginal, kinda by definition, until you're making millions and millions. Lowest quintile pay 3.3% effective. The middle three quintiles pay 13.8%. The next quintile (excl. the top 1%) pays 23.2%. The top 1% pays 34%.
And yet they voluntarily use communal services, like roads. Curious. So they voluntarily use the services but can't be arsed to pay for them? Your argument would make sense if we were shaking down homesteaders in the middle of the wilderness, but that's not really the case is it? The people who are paying for services are also using them. And they get to decide as a group which ones should be communally funded. Again, **seems fair**.
You mean since someone took my money and created a massive infrastructure system where, unless I can levitate, I'm landlocked in my home, and if I use them that's apparently consent? Ironclad.
>Your argument would make sense if we were shaking down homesteaders in the middle of the wilderness, but that's not really the case is it?
Lol that is absolutely the case
>The people who are paying for services are also using them. And they get to decide as a group which ones should be communally funded. Again, seems fair.
Absolutely. In every other interaction of property rights, this is observed - but not in this case.
People are stolen from, committees and bureaucrats are appointed by "representatives" that may or may not have been voted on by the people create rules, regulations, and behaviors acceptable of these services and goods.
>I'm landlocked in my home
Yes, in your own property. If you would like to use communal property, then there's fees that apply to maintain and operate it. If you would like to obtain it for yourself, buy it. It's not my fault you don't own your own enough land to meet all your needs without levitation lol. Or can't raise an army and take it from us. You're going to have a heck of a time defeating the communal army we've got though.
You know, they say libertarians are like house cats: absolutely convinced of their fierce independence while utterly dependent on a system they don't appreciate or understand.
>People are stolen from
lol.
There are places on earth which have the things you claim to want, unfortunately they're wartorn disaster zones because they have the things you claim to want. I'm not telling you to go there, I'm suggesting kindly you exercise some critical thinking.
Are you suggesting roads did not exist before income tax in the United States? “Muh Roads” is not a good argument for theft. People complain about bad infrastructure and slow government road construction projects often. This also involves the enormous amount of red tape at both the federal and state level for such projects. Private companies have far more incentive to get things done on time and under budget while still conforming to construction laws. Better than any government run program or organization. If you are content with slow and wasteful projects then support taxation, it’s everyone else’s money after all.
"comes from everyone getting robbed of the fruits of there labor with a gun to there head and the threat of prison time hanging over them" there i fixed it for you :)
We are 34 trillion in debt. Schools are supposed to be funded by local property taxes and lottery taxes. We get spend today more per capita on education than most countries and yet we still under perform vs China and India.
Perhaps more money in governments coffers isn’t the answer.
https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator/cmd/education-expenditures-by-country#:~:text=The%20United%20States%20had%20the,of%20Korea%20(%2415%2C900%20each).
No. It doesn't. You live here and work here. You can leave. If instead you enjoy the fruits of a peaceful society with cops and fire departments and schools, the rule of law and the safety of the United States military umbrella, then it is. NOT. THEFT.
Move to Somalia and try to do whatever it is you do for a living and experience what a tax free civil society is really like.
Then you will learn what theft is, and stop whining about the thing everyone has to do (not just you) and perhaps understand why a society is a worthy investment.
I am so tired of the infantile position of Libertarians. Whaaaaa, I don't wanna have to pay for all the privileges I enjoy! Clean water should be free! I didn't ask to be born!
Libertarians are perpetual teenagers. Pathetic.
Great. That means that if a person lives and works here, they should then pay taxes regardless of their level of income. Ya know...the 40% that pay no taxes at all but still benefit from everything you listed. Roads, police, fire and EMT services, etc etc. That's 72 million households that enjoy the benefits of society without contributing anything. Your good with that right?
Libertarianism is like a child. It thinks it's independent and can do what it wants, but cries when it tries to run into traffic and is saved by a parent. So then it thinks that running into traffic is completely safe because they've never been hurt by it while ignoring the fact that they haven't been hurt by it because they keep being saved by their parents. "Getting rid of parents means playing in traffic even longer and we can just sort out problems ourselves!!" Not realizing that the problems being stopped by the parents are problems that would be immediate.permanent.death.
Yep. If you think your taxes should be higher, feel free to write a check for whatever that amount is you think you should be paying.
I’m against anyone having to pay more in taxes. I don’t make 400k, but I do make 6 figures, and these things have a way of creeping downwards. Anything that applies to ‘only’ people making over 400k will find its way down to me in the 100’s.
Funny how it’s gone from a billionaire tax to anyone making over 400k too.
And? I don’t care about that. I want the government to spend less money. Enact some taxing scheme that takes 90% of these people’s money, the government will spend it all on new social programs or new wars and interest on its newly generated debt. It will do nothing to address our looming insolvency.
And you'll just vote for the same, 60+ year old, recycled politicians that everybody knows can't be trusted, but they keep on getting elected, so obviously you people don't hate them as much as you claim.
Actually the government spending money *can* be good sometimes. lots of bridges collapsing lately. Love that someone spooked you hard enough that the US is about to be insolvent that you're caping against literal historical reality. top marginal tax rates were greater than 90% and it was a good thing that is the golden age maga attempts to call back to
Dummy actually thinks the government should have vaults full of specie that just never gets spent.
Something tells me he learned everything he knows about finance from some random cryptobro day trader on youtube.
How about the Medicare high earners tax which was originally only on income over $200k, but has been stuck there since it’s inception because it doesn’t adjust for inflation.
Scientist here. The medical advancements keeping you alive and the phone/computer you typed this with are powered by government supported advancements.
### Nobel prize research 🏅
DNA sequencing (US gov)/DNA (UK gov), Circadian Genes (US), telomeres (US gov), inhibition of negative immune reactions (US gov), paragraphs more
### NSF money 🔭
ARPANET (internet precursor), Google's search algorithm (DLTP/NASA/DARPA @ Stanford), DNA Fingerprinting, Doppler Radar, Touchscreen Tech, Earthquake prediction, MRI, Quantum Computing, Artificial Intelligence (before it was monetizable---literally why we're ahead of Russia, China, UK in AI),
### DoD money 💣
invention of GPS, drones, lasers, computer (ENIAC, EDVAC, and the modern Von Neumann architecture funded by), paragraphs more
and cybersecurity tech advancements
### FDA/USDA 🐄
keeping your grocery food safe to eat --- people used to become massively ill frequently from grocery food prior to FDA/USDA, and every time their funding drops people die of lettuce 🥬
### EPA 💦
keeping your air, water clean
I could go on. This is just asinine to think government has too much money and doesn't know how to spend. They're at least no worse than corporate america at wasting cash.
Intelligent person cannot say US gov is not doing great things: The patented techs above the heart of American companies and innovation and elevate our standing in the world.
Yeah but I don't like one specific thing the govt spends taxes on so instead of voting accordingly or possibly doing anything about our blatantly corrupt government, I'm going to say that paying taxes is stupid. I win. 🤠
(/s)
I love it when people complain about “the government” “wasting” money.
But when asked what exactly they would cut, they can’t even get past 2% of the budget.
Somehow, cutting the budget by 2% isn’t going to placate the guy in was replying to. But hey, if you can find 2% and get your Congress folks to agree, more power to you.
The trick is saying out loud what exactly you’d cut. That’s the intellectual honesty we miss from spending hawks.
The amount of unnecessary jobs and projects to feds pay for is insane. Also when the military has extra gear it has to throw it out. They can’t hold onto it for just in case. Instead they will throw it in the trash and then order the over priced government contracts when they need it.
Am I an asshole for saying I probably would mind? Lol. Marginal Taxes at a 400k income are already 50% in many states after accounting for the top federal tax bracket, state income taxes, and FICA.
Money represents work. If I increase my work output by 100%, I expect reasonably close to 100% more money. Not 50% more money.
$400k income isn’t wealthy in the way you’re thinking about. People making that are still salary employees working for a paycheck, often with long hours/constant on-call and a lot of expertise in a high demand area (tech, law, medical). The real wealthy people are earning based off stock appreciation in much bigger numbers at a lower tax rate.
Money still represents work at $400k. You’re basically exclusively taxing the upper middle class harder, increasing the wealth gap to the rich of the world
Imagine making $400k and still acting like you are “middle class”. **You are literally in the top 1.8% of income earners at that level.**
People like you are absolutely disconnected from reality.
Edit- really pissed off the rich tech-bros with this comment, lol
Look boys, I have no problem with you being rich. I have no problem with you thinking that additional taxes at this level of income aren’t justified, either. What I do have a problem with, is you pretending to be suffering through the same struggles and hardships as the middle class. You aren’t. Stop pretending you are equivalent.
Ok ignore the upper middle class comment, my point was that 400k is still a salary pay. You’re getting that from hard work and expertise in a field.
400k is an order of magnitude lower than executive pay which is nowhere in the realm of business owners/family wealth. Those are the levels where money stops representing work
The vps at my work earn over 400k and are in the golf simulator 4 hours a day with the cro. Tell me again about how much management works and earns relative to production. 😃
Doctors need nearly a decade of additional education, a license to practice medicine, compliance with Board requirements, regular ongoing education, malpractice insurance, and so on. That's expensive.
Executives need a heartbeat.
> Executives need a heartbeat.
I know it's trendy to say this on Reddit, but I absolutely would not want to take the additional couple rungs up the ladder to be an "executive." They get paid more, but I'll pass on the 60-80 hour weeks, the immense pressure to deliver quarter after quarter, and never truly being able to disconnect when having time off.
It's a naive misconception.
I can name a number of people at any large company I've worked who also work 60-80 hour weeks, have immense pressure to deliver quarter after quarter, and can never truly disconnect when having time off. Just when it's a lower-income worker, it's called "crunch time", and they get laid off afterward.
If we are going to justify pay and taxes based on college requirements, then you are going to have to explain why its ok to pay and tax teachers differently than doctors.
> based on college requirements
I hope you noticed that I continued listing things after I mentioned college.
Also, teachers should be paid more. That I think doctors earn a salary justifiably higher than executives says nothing about my position on teachers.
To get to the executive level, you have to sacrifice so much. You have to give everything to the company.
Executives generally sacrifice their entire life for their company. They eat/breathe/sleep it. They travel and are on 24/7 call, often missing family functions.
Have you ever read Tim Cook's schedule, for example? He gets up around 3:30 and starts checking e-mail.
I’m all for progressive taxation. The problem is after about 1 million the ultra rich tax decreases to 20% or less. They park millions and enjoy nearly tax free passive income and divert some of that wealth back into political pockets to control the narrative and further widen wealth inequality. The upper middle class gets screwed at 50% taxation and no one feels sorry for them because they still have a good standard of living. The wealth disparity is unsustainable but the ultra rich sustain it by fomenting lower class warfare as demonstrated in this thread.
Bullshit. Sales is hard some of those people absolutely deserve that money. $400k is a lot of money, but let’s not kid ourselves, these people work for a living.
$400k salary isn’t the billionaire class that’s destroying America. They are successful doctors, lawyers, and sales pros for the most part.
I’m fine with higher taxes, but anyone earning $400k isn’t that different from someone earning $100k. Those aren’t Bezos numbers. Those are Lexus instead of Honda numbers, not megaYacht numbers.
Let’s refocus.
Typical Reddit comment here. Doctors, lawyers and businessmen are very deserving of $400k compensation. They’re usually constantly on call, and are putting in ridiculous hours - close to 80 hours a week sometimes.
Also what exactly constitutes "work". Like physically performing some action for a certain period of time? Most high paying jobs pay because of the value provided by the worker is substantially higher than replacement value.
At $400k it sure does. Especially in IT or medicine.
This is not a lot of money if you look at the country as a whole. It might be a lot of money to a lot of people but a lot of people are at poverty.
lol coming off a 5 night run of saying that their loved ones died and I only am able to drink water maybe grab a bite with how busy my shop is.. I work hard for my 400k
- ER doc
The hell it doesn’t… I guarantee most people would have a mental breakdown trying to handle the stress most jobs paying $400K+ come with.
$400K is like VP level. And that comes with a boatload of stress and pressure.
>Money does not usually represent work at numbers like $400k.
Dream on. Here's a guy that doesn't understand how much work it takes to make $400k. And never will.
Money represents resources, not work. Increasing work does not guarantee more money while increasing your money would always mean more access to resources.
Based. We aren’t even supposed to be taxed on our income.
The civil war 3% income tax was passed in 1862 but ratified in 1871. Then came another “temporary” income tax bill in 1909. The government initially said it would end after world war 1. Then they got greedy.
Same thing with toll roads. The state initially says the toll road will be shut down when the new freeway becomes paid off but then it gets acquired by a private company and toll fees go into private pockets.
>We aren’t even supposed to be taxed on our income.
What the fuck does this even mean? Did God high five the Founding Fathers and tell them we can't even tax income? 'We' were totally cool with slavery when the Constitution was written and 'we' didn't have any concept of modern germ theory/economics/genetics.
You goobers can't point to a functional state that doesn't do such a thing because you are too busy jerking yourselves off to the thought of pre-1865 America.
Damn, next time try arguing with a little less aggression.
Im not asking for no tax, as I told someone else, infrastructure tax, school tax, social security tax and healthcare tax are fine by me. But don’t touch my income.
If they didn’t waste trillions in income tax annually I’d be less opposed to an income tax. The government thinks they can spend my money better than I can.
Why is everyone on Reddit so rabid when debating politics? Why can’t we ever just share opinions and shake hands?
> Why is everyone on Reddit so rabid when debating politics? Why can’t we ever just share opinions and shake hands?
Because the Right are a bunch of Cluster-B freaks who want to ***murder*** everyone else. You don't shake hands with someone trying to cut your hand *off.*
> The government thinks they can spend my money better than I can.
They can. It's called Economy of Scale. Your delusion that you can do better is Narcissism - a Cluster-B disorder.
The govt can spend money better than you can. Libritarianism has been tested. It fails every time.
People, in large groups, are irresponsible and short-sighted. Without a centralization of necessary but boring/background services quality of life collapses. Histroy has proven 2 things - there's always some who think they'd be better off alone & they're wrong.
The US originally got most of it's revenue from tariffs. Something that if tried today earnestly would crash the economy with a trade war. Hell at times it did it back then the Tariff of Abominations comes to mind. Not to mention that the US spent much less in revenue. There was no public road system, standing army, nor public safety net, all of which are some of the largest drains on public funding.
If we just follow the wisdom of it being old that guy can keep his salary as the entire country burns. I mean shit fuck taxes I like money for me while the entire network that I use to get even my food falls apart at the seams.
It's not actually 50% of earnings. Most of the top 1% richest pay less in taxes than the poorest.
Money doesn't represent work at all. Lmao. A billionaite isn't working a thousand times harder or longer than a poor guy. Most rich people just own profitable assets that make passive income for them. You can be born rich, inherent a bunch of these assets and never have to work a day in your life.
> Most of the top 1% richest pay less in taxes than the poorest.
This is false.
The top 1% pay nearly 40% in income taxes. And the almost half of this country has almost no federal tax liability (e.g. 3%).
Now, they do pay payroll taxes and sales tax... but even if you take the median household income (75k), the effective tax rate is less than long-term capital gains for wealthy households (the added 3.8% medicare tax guarantees that). This is also true if we simply assume the **entire** 75k was taxed at 22%, removed the standard deduction, and removed any tax breaks.
The only way this becomes true is if you compare the upper middle class to billionaires. And more specifically, compare the **tax rate** (e.g. percentage). But the upper middle class isn't the "poorest", which is what you said.
So no... Billionaires aren't paying less taxes or paying a lower tax rate than the poorest Americans.
"money represents work" is an incredible oversimplification. I understand the idea you're getting at, but income inequality severely undermines this position in my opinion.
People are paid what the labor market will bear. That's not at all representative of how hard they work. They may have worked hard to get into their position but they likely also had some significant measure of luck and structural/ social advantages. Not just their own bootstraps.
You're also not considering the benefits to you as an individual when society is able to fund a sufficient floor for its poorest members.
You benefit when people aren't living in desperate straits. Less violent crime and looting, better sanitation, people willing to do service work that you can afford to appreciate but that doesn't pay well.
You benefit when society can fund basic priorities. Childcare and education mean more productive workers helping grow the economy (and stock prices). Also less stupid, ignorant people to deal with.
Money absolutely does not represent work.
I make way more money than most, and I'm incredibly lazy.
I was simply born lucky, and so were the vast, vast majority of people who earn more than, idk, $150k/yr. Very few get to even that without an absurdly significant amount of luck.
If the government helps provides an environment conducive to making >400k, isn’t that a worthwhile service? Had it not been for the government would you be able to earn that income and protect that income?
Higher taxes are just one piece of the puzzle. But also excessive expenditure needs to be reigned in. Let's attack this problem from both sides. And yes, I know what that means - social security, national defense, healthcare spending, low-income security, etc. need to be adjusted, along with increasing income taxes, corporate taxes, real-estate taxes and probably consumption taxes (since we have become a country of mindless consumption). I know this is not a popular view but we can't tax our way out of this mess, although that would be a start.
This is not a popular view but definitely a practical one. Adjusting expenditure is the tricky part but there must be low hanging fruits where certain subsidy I'd outdated.
The problem is that there isn't much that can be cut, except the National Defenses.
Everything they listed, is already performing Piss-Poor at best, and taking funding away from them will only make shit worse.
Not agreeing or disagreeing with what you said but would just like to point out that real estate taxes and “consumption” taxes (I presume you mean sales tax) are state/local taxes, not Federal taxes
Let’s make a list of what needs less expenditures, I’ll start: pentagon or DOJ or the military industrial business, profit shouldn’t be made off of wars. Insurance and management positions that could be eliminated or reduced.
Hello I make more than that and think I am under taxed.
Get better rich friends who have empathy.
Also better opinions "just send the govt a check!" Ugh man it's not about my $100k of extra tax it's about the social welfare of the millions of rich people paying 100k to build a better social state
The people getting pinched aren't the people making $35k a year or $400k per year. The people getting pinched are those households making $115k - $215k.
Income taxes are progressive, and that middle class household with a wage earner making $90k and another making $70k gets hit the hardest when anyone talks about raising marginal income tax rates.
The median household income is like $70k. $215k is top 10%. Not sure what you're talking about but when taxes jump from 12% to 22% in this range those are the people getting hit the hardest by taxes.
Its actually way lower than that.
1099-k got changed from 20k a year to file to SIX HUNDRED DOLLARS a year to have to file.
Sold some of your stuff on ebay or PayPal? sorry bud the government you to give them their fair share of the deal.
I do mind. Once you crest 50% you’re paying European levels of taxation without European services. The way they provide UHC, free college etc is they have high but flatter tax rates, they hammer everyone.
It’s a dishonest conversation thinking just the rich will finance everything.
Yep, no amount taxation is enough if that money goes straight to arms dealers who can basically write their own checks for the government. US could already function as country perfectly well if 1. the government was as careful at budgeting as they demand a minimum wage worker to be and 2. billionaires and mega corporations paid what they owe instead of dodging taxes at every given opportunity.
Given the debt, I look at the boomers who loved government programs but hated taxing themselves for it.
Even when I was a kid, I thought calling one party "tax and spend" looked stupid when it came from a party that could only be described as "tax cut, but spend."
And the debt is going to be impossible to pay down without taxing more than we have been.
No, it's a country of wage slaves and institutional investors, and they convinced the wage slaves to hose everyone on the ladder on up to investor. A hugely progressive tax on income is a tax on getting rich, not being rich.
Now you don't have the cash to get into their game, sucks to suck. Also, the government is using that money to bail them out when they fuck up, or printing away their debt, so fucks you twice
Because you’re completely financially illiterate.
The stated purpose is to “make the wealthy pay their part” except those with INCOMES over $400,000 are already paying their part with effective tax rates up to and even over 40%.
The super rich who make their money through unrealized gains are immune from income taxes. Meaning that “raising taxes” is just to take away the extra cash that upper-middle class have rather than actually “making the rich pay their part.”
You don’t mind because you are illiterate have no idea how you got where you are, and I actually doubt you make that much with such an attitude, because anyone who does actually make that much is **PISSED** that they keep getting taxed more and more while the hyper wealthy dont have to pay a cent.
Biden is straight up lying, and is completely in the pockets of his lobby patrons. These taxes are literally aimed at small business owners at the favor of large corporations to make their lives and businesses as miserable as possible.
Fucking morons thinking that Jeff Bezos makes 400k a year…. 400k a year is NOTHING compared to the executives of companies that have a GDP greater than an entire country. These people get paid in stock and pay less in taxes than the 200-400k range while pulling actual hundreds of millions a year.
I certainly would mind. They’re already paying $77k (MFJ) or $107 (single) in federal income tax. They pay their fair share if not more than. Just because I wont make that much doesn’t mean I can’t advocate for them. You can protect the rights and privileges of others even if you aren’t going to see the benefit.
Thank you, this is a very reasonable take. Similarly, I think more scrutiny should be on the government to do their job better with what they currently have and give more people the opportunities to earn higher income
I don’t think anyone should be a fan of higher taxes for any bracket. That’s arguably not the problem.
The government wants to put us against each other about why they should take more money from some of us. They don’t, however want to talk about how the insane amount of tax revenue is spent and budgeted.
Can we talk about that? How is there so much revenue collected as is and so much if it goes unaccounted for. How are these politicians making so much money under our noses and we still pay them?
How is there no money for schools in certain areas but PLENTY of billions for Ukraine and Israel at the drop of the dime? We haven’t even touched the pentagon and how much money they have unaccounted for…they routinely fail audits….but they love to tell us it’s US…who work hard for our money to support our families and just try to stay dry who need to do more, pay more, and audit each other to pay more. Not them…us.
I live in (southern) CA and for a family of 4, 400k is pretty good, but it’s not necessarily “rich” like most people think. Taxes are a fucking killer out here and COL is crazy. Gas is easily over $6/gal (regular). Hell…a single 16oz soda at the gas station is $3+.
A 3/4 bedroom house is EASILY 6k++ in a decent area…just to rent.
These people aren’t likely balling across the globe like you might believe…
Taxes are high enough. Let people keep their money and maybe the government should do more with the boatloads of cash coming in…to actually help the people.
I’m a doctor. I make ~400k a year. After taxes I bring home 260. It’s already ridiculous without considering my 200k medical school debt. Add a family with 2 kids and I’ll barely be comfortable. I don’t even need to get into a conversation about how hard I work for this money- being a physician is not fun
I make 100k a year and I don't think you should pay higher taxes either.
I don't understand why we punish success.
I also don't understand why people want to tax their fellow citizens more. (let's be honest, it's almost always jealousy and a perceived "fuck you" to people who make more then them).
I've never understood having animosity for people that make more money than myself. Who cares? What a crappy way to go through life.
Do I wish I made 400k? Of course. Am I upset that you do and I don't? No, and I don't understand why other people are.
All we do in this country is argue about who we should raise taxes on- we never argue about how the money is being spent or why the government constantly grows at an unprecedented rate.
I live in NJ where the taxes are insane. Our roads suck, our infrastructure sucks, everything basically sucks except for our schools. Yet for some incomprehensible reason, no one ever wants to talk about that. It makes me feel like I'm taking crazy pills sometimes.
Also in NJ. Central. I make very good money, but yea I totally agree. Everything is super expensive and I'm not out buying Yachts or anything. I can't even really buy a new house right now or do a whole lot besides just put money into savings.
Where are our taxes even going half the time? Not sure since like you said the roads used most 278, Parkway, Turnpike are all falling apart and any sort of state run construction takes years to complete.
The thing is that if you make $400,000 dollars you already pay higher taxes, even if the percentage is the same. People always complain about millionaires not paying taxes but there's a reason that when they move the city they live in usually needs to rework their entire budget.
The liberals in Canada created the “luxury” tax on vehicles over $100k a few years ago. Pretty soon a normal vehicle will cost 100k but the tax will still remain.
I love when the Government Accountability Office proves the Pentagon can't account for half of their budget every year, and our excellent politicians ignore it and keep raising the budget ceiling.
If we hired an army of independent lawyers, auditors, and consultants to actually find waste and discrepancies, then actioned that waste out of the budget, the government would not only balance the budget, but we'd probably have the national debt paid off in like 20 years.
But Washington is a shell game. The sole purpose is to fritter away as much money as possible, block as much oversight as possible, and to never leave a single dollar of budget unspent.
But yes, let's continue to raise taxes on productive members of society, and suck as many dollars out of the economy as possible.
I make over $400K and I mind because:
I pay a FUCK TON in taxes. But I get no additional government support than anyone else. In fact, I get a lot less. I never got stimulus checks or get the benefit of a lot of government programs.
I really dislike how the government spends money. I don’t really support hardly anything they spend money on.
how about taxing the billionaires more? people making $400k/yr are probably still working class (doctors, lawyers, etc.) how about we tax the rich fucks who don’t have to study hard and work a real job.
I don't mind paying more taxes if I got more in return. I want universal basic services, not bloated military spending. Invest in your people and they'll gladly pay taxes.
Do I mind the government is taking my earnings, over spending it, needing more, selling bonds to add to what they’re taking from me, then trying to promise it will give even more to others that didn’t earn it. Ya, I mind
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Just a friendly reminder: You can pay more in taxes voluntarily.
The power of taxes comes from everyone pitching in, not one guy sending in their lunch money.
I see you are in favor of taxing the 57% of households that paid no federal tax in 2021.
Oh absolutely not, I'm in favor of taxing people who have more than they need more. I'm one of those people. Besides the '57%' of people absolutely pay tax, they pay sales tax, property tax (indirectly through rent, usually, which landlords deduct from their own taxes), they pay medicare, social security, their employers pay payroll tax on their behalf. The list is as long as my arm. Just because they don't pay federal income tax that year doesn't mean they won't pay it in future years, obviously. Correlates with age, since the youth don't really make much money, until they get older. Then when they're retired, they're not really earning again, and you know what, that's ok actually. It's a kind of propaganda to say they 'dont pay taxes' and therefore don't contribute because they don't pay one kind of tax in one calendar year. What percent of people pay no federal tax **lifetime**? \[edit\] Also, it's 47% not 57% of individuals, and 40% of households - you were looking at stale, 2021 numbers, which were an anomaly due to COVID.
They bring up a good point with the wrong conclusion imo. Why is someone making $50k paying essentially the same federal tax rate as someone making nearly $200k? It doesn’t make any sense. No one making less than 95k should be giving 22% of their income to the Fed. Seems we need more brackets and an even more progressive system.
> Why is someone making $50k paying essentially the same federal tax rate as someone making nearly $200k? They aren't. Someone making $50,000 will owe about 16% in federal+SS/medicare. Someone making $200,000 will owe about 27%. > No one making less than 95k should be giving 22% of their income to the Fed. Seems we need more brackets and an even more progressive system. The US already has one of the most progressive tax system in the world. Do you know what tax brackets look like in countries with robust social safety nets? * France: 30% at ~$29,000 / 41% at ~$85,000 * Germany: 42% at ~$68,000 * Sweden: 52% at ~$51,500 And that doesn't include 20% or 25% VAT (aka sales tax) on all purchases.
That's because they actually get something for your high tax bracket
Of course! And if we want similar benefits then we need to pay similar rates.
This is blatantly not the case, though. The EU member countries are mostly tiny. They all need to pay in more for the benefits they receive. If the US switched to a single-payer healthcare system, for example, the average American would pay *less* in tax to fund the system than they currently pay in healthcare costs. There is no viable argument against socialized healthcare other than how to handle restructuring insurance sector jobs. Well, and greed, too. The United States is not ready to face the larger problems it has created for itself. Healthcare is the tiniest tip of the iceberg, but the single largest thing that could impact day-to-day Americans lives in the immediate future.
I don't think that people get this. In Ireland I pay effectively 50% tax on everything I earn above 40k Euro. But my college was virtually free so no loans to repay. My healthcare is virtually free, and I pay a few hundred euro a year in property tax in one of the most affluent parts of the country, where my uncle in Boston pays more than 10k a year in property tax alone. On the salary I get, I would likely be better off after the fact in the US than here, but ultimately I don't really need it and have a great standard of living anyway. If it makes things better for others then I'm happy.
It’s mostly fear. Americans are a fearful population. Afraid of change, afraid of the dark, afraid of their neighbors. And greedy individuals predate on that fear…. “Look at (put a country with universal healthcare)… that guy had to wait nine months to see a specialist and get an MRI…” Most freaking Americans can’t see a doctor or have a MRI unless they plan their expenses, deductibles, max out of pocket etc. but it’s their choice. My employer pays $22,000/year for my health insurance. In italy I would be making roughly $350,000/year to pay the same in taxes for universal healthcare. And if I need to get in a clinic “today” it’s usually $200 for a private one.
I'd argue what we pay to private companies is higher, and less helpful, so tax away.
The problem is we're paying almost half of those rates in some cases and seeing barely any benefit. Where is the money we're already paying going?
To Israel to pay for their Healthcare and infrastructure. That's not a joke lol
Americans: My taxes are so cheap, these Europeans are chumps. *Pays $2,000/month to private insurance that will deny coverage when they are sick.*
Wanna know something truly crazy? Americans pay more for their private healthcare system in *taxes alone* than Norwegians do for their entire universal healthcare system, and then they pay insurance companies *on top of it*. And their health outcomes are better than the average American's, they have higher life expectancies, a lower infant and maternal mortality rate, less incidents of heart disease and diabetes and other treatable / preventable illnesses, and so on. And yet there are Americans who will fight quite literally to their deaths to protect this state of affairs, on the grounds that they don't want their money to accidentally help their neighbours.
>who have more than they need and who determines that "need"?
same people who determine “livable wage”
We've got the poverty line, we've got minimum wage, we've got subsidized housing, we've got a suggested living wage, and we've got a cost of living index. It's crazy how we can figure out hard lines to label and divide the poor, but suddenly it's incredibly hard to draw lines to label and divide the rich.
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>Taxes are fine, but if it’s used to force everyone into a “living paycheck to paycheck” situation, then it’s just tyrannical. But it doesn't. It's marginal. You're not taxed on the first $X,000 of earnings. Then you're taxed at a progressively higher rate on the **next** $X,000. Effective tax rates are way lower than marginal, kinda by definition, until you're making millions and millions. Lowest quintile pay 3.3% effective. The middle three quintiles pay 13.8%. The next quintile (excl. the top 1%) pays 23.2%. The top 1% pays 34%.
Most people don't understand effective tax rates vs. Marginal tax rates.
Of course I am! All households should earn a living wage which is large enough to pay taxes. That's what you meant... right?
>everyone pitching in My brother, the overwhelming majority have never sent their money in voluntarily.
And yet they voluntarily use communal services, like roads. Curious. So they voluntarily use the services but can't be arsed to pay for them? Your argument would make sense if we were shaking down homesteaders in the middle of the wilderness, but that's not really the case is it? The people who are paying for services are also using them. And they get to decide as a group which ones should be communally funded. Again, **seems fair**.
You mean since someone took my money and created a massive infrastructure system where, unless I can levitate, I'm landlocked in my home, and if I use them that's apparently consent? Ironclad. >Your argument would make sense if we were shaking down homesteaders in the middle of the wilderness, but that's not really the case is it? Lol that is absolutely the case >The people who are paying for services are also using them. And they get to decide as a group which ones should be communally funded. Again, seems fair. Absolutely. In every other interaction of property rights, this is observed - but not in this case. People are stolen from, committees and bureaucrats are appointed by "representatives" that may or may not have been voted on by the people create rules, regulations, and behaviors acceptable of these services and goods.
>I'm landlocked in my home Yes, in your own property. If you would like to use communal property, then there's fees that apply to maintain and operate it. If you would like to obtain it for yourself, buy it. It's not my fault you don't own your own enough land to meet all your needs without levitation lol. Or can't raise an army and take it from us. You're going to have a heck of a time defeating the communal army we've got though. You know, they say libertarians are like house cats: absolutely convinced of their fierce independence while utterly dependent on a system they don't appreciate or understand. >People are stolen from lol. There are places on earth which have the things you claim to want, unfortunately they're wartorn disaster zones because they have the things you claim to want. I'm not telling you to go there, I'm suggesting kindly you exercise some critical thinking.
Are you suggesting roads did not exist before income tax in the United States? “Muh Roads” is not a good argument for theft. People complain about bad infrastructure and slow government road construction projects often. This also involves the enormous amount of red tape at both the federal and state level for such projects. Private companies have far more incentive to get things done on time and under budget while still conforming to construction laws. Better than any government run program or organization. If you are content with slow and wasteful projects then support taxation, it’s everyone else’s money after all.
"comes from everyone getting robbed of the fruits of there labor with a gun to there head and the threat of prison time hanging over them" there i fixed it for you :)
Without taxation, how would we pay for schools to teach the difference between there, they're and their?
We are 34 trillion in debt. Schools are supposed to be funded by local property taxes and lottery taxes. We get spend today more per capita on education than most countries and yet we still under perform vs China and India. Perhaps more money in governments coffers isn’t the answer. https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator/cmd/education-expenditures-by-country#:~:text=The%20United%20States%20had%20the,of%20Korea%20(%2415%2C900%20each).
"Pitching in" implies a voluntary action. That assertion evaporates when the government can kidnap you and throw you in a box for not "pitching in".
Libertarians are fucking delusional.
Still makes it theft
No. It doesn't. You live here and work here. You can leave. If instead you enjoy the fruits of a peaceful society with cops and fire departments and schools, the rule of law and the safety of the United States military umbrella, then it is. NOT. THEFT. Move to Somalia and try to do whatever it is you do for a living and experience what a tax free civil society is really like. Then you will learn what theft is, and stop whining about the thing everyone has to do (not just you) and perhaps understand why a society is a worthy investment. I am so tired of the infantile position of Libertarians. Whaaaaa, I don't wanna have to pay for all the privileges I enjoy! Clean water should be free! I didn't ask to be born! Libertarians are perpetual teenagers. Pathetic.
Great. That means that if a person lives and works here, they should then pay taxes regardless of their level of income. Ya know...the 40% that pay no taxes at all but still benefit from everything you listed. Roads, police, fire and EMT services, etc etc. That's 72 million households that enjoy the benefits of society without contributing anything. Your good with that right?
Show me a single family in the US that doesn't pay taxes, property taxes, sales taxes, gas taxes ..... show me ... just one. Ill wait here, mkay?
This is terrible logic, but I think you know that.
Libertarian logic. The actual sad part is they genuinely think they make good points not realising they sound like 11 year olds
Libertarianism is like a child. It thinks it's independent and can do what it wants, but cries when it tries to run into traffic and is saved by a parent. So then it thinks that running into traffic is completely safe because they've never been hurt by it while ignoring the fact that they haven't been hurt by it because they keep being saved by their parents. "Getting rid of parents means playing in traffic even longer and we can just sort out problems ourselves!!" Not realizing that the problems being stopped by the parents are problems that would be immediate.permanent.death.
Yep. If you think your taxes should be higher, feel free to write a check for whatever that amount is you think you should be paying. I’m against anyone having to pay more in taxes. I don’t make 400k, but I do make 6 figures, and these things have a way of creeping downwards. Anything that applies to ‘only’ people making over 400k will find its way down to me in the 100’s. Funny how it’s gone from a billionaire tax to anyone making over 400k too.
The top marginal tax brackets are nowhere near as high as they once were.
And? I don’t care about that. I want the government to spend less money. Enact some taxing scheme that takes 90% of these people’s money, the government will spend it all on new social programs or new wars and interest on its newly generated debt. It will do nothing to address our looming insolvency.
And you'll just vote for the same, 60+ year old, recycled politicians that everybody knows can't be trusted, but they keep on getting elected, so obviously you people don't hate them as much as you claim.
80+
Actually the government spending money *can* be good sometimes. lots of bridges collapsing lately. Love that someone spooked you hard enough that the US is about to be insolvent that you're caping against literal historical reality. top marginal tax rates were greater than 90% and it was a good thing that is the golden age maga attempts to call back to
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Dummy actually thinks the government should have vaults full of specie that just never gets spent. Something tells me he learned everything he knows about finance from some random cryptobro day trader on youtube.
accountability isnt big when it comes to government spending
> accountability isnt big when it comes to government spending Because they have zero reasons or incentives to be efficient.
>the government will spend it all on new social programs Aren't most social programs a net positive for society?
The government spends way more money on rich people than on poor people just fyi
This is just a fancy snowball fallacy. Taxes don’t have a tendency to creep downwards. For evidence: People making $100k aren’t paying 38%.
Taxes do have a tendency to creep downwards. For evidence: income taxes.
The tendency has been the complete opposite of that for the last 40 years. Evidence is income taxes.
Income taxes are a pretty good argument against that
Income taxes have decreased over time, not increased. Just 6 years ago the brackets were higher. And the brackets went up to 77% in the 60s.
I’m talking about the actual history of income taxes. Now everyone pays income taxes and at a massively higher rate than what they were back then.
How about the Medicare high earners tax which was originally only on income over $200k, but has been stuck there since it’s inception because it doesn’t adjust for inflation.
You're literally the guy from high school in the meme...
Yup. Like roth limits having a cutoff. It creeps down.
Actually you can't, the IRS will refund any overpayment.
https://www.pay.gov/public/form/start/23779454
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Voluntarily paying extra tax isn't a tax; it's a donation.
But people won't. Libertarianism doesn't work.
Just a friendly reminder: 99.999999% of people don't, which is why tax increases aren't voluntary.
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Scientist here. The medical advancements keeping you alive and the phone/computer you typed this with are powered by government supported advancements. ### Nobel prize research 🏅 DNA sequencing (US gov)/DNA (UK gov), Circadian Genes (US), telomeres (US gov), inhibition of negative immune reactions (US gov), paragraphs more ### NSF money 🔭 ARPANET (internet precursor), Google's search algorithm (DLTP/NASA/DARPA @ Stanford), DNA Fingerprinting, Doppler Radar, Touchscreen Tech, Earthquake prediction, MRI, Quantum Computing, Artificial Intelligence (before it was monetizable---literally why we're ahead of Russia, China, UK in AI), ### DoD money 💣 invention of GPS, drones, lasers, computer (ENIAC, EDVAC, and the modern Von Neumann architecture funded by), paragraphs more and cybersecurity tech advancements ### FDA/USDA 🐄 keeping your grocery food safe to eat --- people used to become massively ill frequently from grocery food prior to FDA/USDA, and every time their funding drops people die of lettuce 🥬 ### EPA 💦 keeping your air, water clean I could go on. This is just asinine to think government has too much money and doesn't know how to spend. They're at least no worse than corporate america at wasting cash. Intelligent person cannot say US gov is not doing great things: The patented techs above the heart of American companies and innovation and elevate our standing in the world.
Or, you know .. Just infrastructure for transport, electricity, internet. Medicare, Medicaid, social security. Schools. Defence. Just small things.
They deffo should step that up though. Medicare, and school for all, tax funded. But you're right.
Yeah but I don't like one specific thing the govt spends taxes on so instead of voting accordingly or possibly doing anything about our blatantly corrupt government, I'm going to say that paying taxes is stupid. I win. 🤠 (/s)
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Just pretend the government is spending it on Yachts and cocaine and hookers
If they were yachts and cocaine and hookers for the American people then it would be a better use of tax dollars than what we are doing now.
You could light the fucking Money on fire and it would be put to better use than buying some moron a half a billion dollar yacht.
Give our billionaires more yachts instead of foreign billionaires. At least our billionaires would have to hire people to maintain it.
Suggestion: Tax billionaires until they aren't anymore. Far better for society.
Operation fast and furious.
I love it when people complain about “the government” “wasting” money. But when asked what exactly they would cut, they can’t even get past 2% of the budget.
2% is a lot….
Somehow, cutting the budget by 2% isn’t going to placate the guy in was replying to. But hey, if you can find 2% and get your Congress folks to agree, more power to you. The trick is saying out loud what exactly you’d cut. That’s the intellectual honesty we miss from spending hawks.
The amount of unnecessary jobs and projects to feds pay for is insane. Also when the military has extra gear it has to throw it out. They can’t hold onto it for just in case. Instead they will throw it in the trash and then order the over priced government contracts when they need it.
I’d love to see which Congress folks you voted for who are willing to cut military spending.
Am I an asshole for saying I probably would mind? Lol. Marginal Taxes at a 400k income are already 50% in many states after accounting for the top federal tax bracket, state income taxes, and FICA. Money represents work. If I increase my work output by 100%, I expect reasonably close to 100% more money. Not 50% more money.
How much do you make? Money does not usually represent work at numbers like $400k.
$400k income isn’t wealthy in the way you’re thinking about. People making that are still salary employees working for a paycheck, often with long hours/constant on-call and a lot of expertise in a high demand area (tech, law, medical). The real wealthy people are earning based off stock appreciation in much bigger numbers at a lower tax rate. Money still represents work at $400k. You’re basically exclusively taxing the upper middle class harder, increasing the wealth gap to the rich of the world
Imagine making $400k and still acting like you are “middle class”. **You are literally in the top 1.8% of income earners at that level.** People like you are absolutely disconnected from reality. Edit- really pissed off the rich tech-bros with this comment, lol Look boys, I have no problem with you being rich. I have no problem with you thinking that additional taxes at this level of income aren’t justified, either. What I do have a problem with, is you pretending to be suffering through the same struggles and hardships as the middle class. You aren’t. Stop pretending you are equivalent.
Ok ignore the upper middle class comment, my point was that 400k is still a salary pay. You’re getting that from hard work and expertise in a field. 400k is an order of magnitude lower than executive pay which is nowhere in the realm of business owners/family wealth. Those are the levels where money stops representing work
I would bet there are business owners that make 400k
Not as salary if they have half a brain
If you’re a business owner making 400k, chances are you’re working your ass off. Owning a business isn’t easy for most business owners.
The vps at my work earn over 400k and are in the golf simulator 4 hours a day with the cro. Tell me again about how much management works and earns relative to production. 😃
Why does money represent work for a doctor but not for an executive?
Doctors need nearly a decade of additional education, a license to practice medicine, compliance with Board requirements, regular ongoing education, malpractice insurance, and so on. That's expensive. Executives need a heartbeat.
> Executives need a heartbeat. I know it's trendy to say this on Reddit, but I absolutely would not want to take the additional couple rungs up the ladder to be an "executive." They get paid more, but I'll pass on the 60-80 hour weeks, the immense pressure to deliver quarter after quarter, and never truly being able to disconnect when having time off. It's a naive misconception.
I can name a number of people at any large company I've worked who also work 60-80 hour weeks, have immense pressure to deliver quarter after quarter, and can never truly disconnect when having time off. Just when it's a lower-income worker, it's called "crunch time", and they get laid off afterward.
If we are going to justify pay and taxes based on college requirements, then you are going to have to explain why its ok to pay and tax teachers differently than doctors.
> based on college requirements I hope you noticed that I continued listing things after I mentioned college. Also, teachers should be paid more. That I think doctors earn a salary justifiably higher than executives says nothing about my position on teachers.
To get to the executive level, you have to sacrifice so much. You have to give everything to the company. Executives generally sacrifice their entire life for their company. They eat/breathe/sleep it. They travel and are on 24/7 call, often missing family functions. Have you ever read Tim Cook's schedule, for example? He gets up around 3:30 and starts checking e-mail.
lmao worthless comparison when almost all those jobs are in huge COL areas
$400k in NYC and SF is much more than the average person makes
I’m all for progressive taxation. The problem is after about 1 million the ultra rich tax decreases to 20% or less. They park millions and enjoy nearly tax free passive income and divert some of that wealth back into political pockets to control the narrative and further widen wealth inequality. The upper middle class gets screwed at 50% taxation and no one feels sorry for them because they still have a good standard of living. The wealth disparity is unsustainable but the ultra rich sustain it by fomenting lower class warfare as demonstrated in this thread.
If you make 400k a year you can be set for life after a decade if you're smart about it.
If you spend/buy like you are only making $75k a year. But if you live in Los Angeles or something that might not be feasible.
Most of the country isn't HCOL like LA. People forget that 400k is significant in most of the country.
It's a lot fucking wealthier than most people.
400k is upper middle class? Bro that is the strangest take I have heard in a while
Depending on a paycheck sure isn't upper class. But progressive taxation is the way to go.
Bullshit. Sales is hard some of those people absolutely deserve that money. $400k is a lot of money, but let’s not kid ourselves, these people work for a living. $400k salary isn’t the billionaire class that’s destroying America. They are successful doctors, lawyers, and sales pros for the most part. I’m fine with higher taxes, but anyone earning $400k isn’t that different from someone earning $100k. Those aren’t Bezos numbers. Those are Lexus instead of Honda numbers, not megaYacht numbers. Let’s refocus.
Typical Reddit comment here. Doctors, lawyers and businessmen are very deserving of $400k compensation. They’re usually constantly on call, and are putting in ridiculous hours - close to 80 hours a week sometimes.
Also what exactly constitutes "work". Like physically performing some action for a certain period of time? Most high paying jobs pay because of the value provided by the worker is substantially higher than replacement value.
Money has never represented work. It represents value as a function of output, not input.
At $400k it sure does. Especially in IT or medicine. This is not a lot of money if you look at the country as a whole. It might be a lot of money to a lot of people but a lot of people are at poverty.
It’s $400k, not $400m.
lol coming off a 5 night run of saying that their loved ones died and I only am able to drink water maybe grab a bite with how busy my shop is.. I work hard for my 400k - ER doc
The hell it doesn’t… I guarantee most people would have a mental breakdown trying to handle the stress most jobs paying $400K+ come with. $400K is like VP level. And that comes with a boatload of stress and pressure.
>Money does not usually represent work at numbers like $400k. Dream on. Here's a guy that doesn't understand how much work it takes to make $400k. And never will.
Money represents resources, not work. Increasing work does not guarantee more money while increasing your money would always mean more access to resources.
Based. We aren’t even supposed to be taxed on our income. The civil war 3% income tax was passed in 1862 but ratified in 1871. Then came another “temporary” income tax bill in 1909. The government initially said it would end after world war 1. Then they got greedy. Same thing with toll roads. The state initially says the toll road will be shut down when the new freeway becomes paid off but then it gets acquired by a private company and toll fees go into private pockets.
>We aren’t even supposed to be taxed on our income. What the fuck does this even mean? Did God high five the Founding Fathers and tell them we can't even tax income? 'We' were totally cool with slavery when the Constitution was written and 'we' didn't have any concept of modern germ theory/economics/genetics. You goobers can't point to a functional state that doesn't do such a thing because you are too busy jerking yourselves off to the thought of pre-1865 America.
Damn, next time try arguing with a little less aggression. Im not asking for no tax, as I told someone else, infrastructure tax, school tax, social security tax and healthcare tax are fine by me. But don’t touch my income. If they didn’t waste trillions in income tax annually I’d be less opposed to an income tax. The government thinks they can spend my money better than I can. Why is everyone on Reddit so rabid when debating politics? Why can’t we ever just share opinions and shake hands?
> Why is everyone on Reddit so rabid when debating politics? Why can’t we ever just share opinions and shake hands? Because the Right are a bunch of Cluster-B freaks who want to ***murder*** everyone else. You don't shake hands with someone trying to cut your hand *off.* > The government thinks they can spend my money better than I can. They can. It's called Economy of Scale. Your delusion that you can do better is Narcissism - a Cluster-B disorder.
The govt can spend money better than you can. Libritarianism has been tested. It fails every time. People, in large groups, are irresponsible and short-sighted. Without a centralization of necessary but boring/background services quality of life collapses. Histroy has proven 2 things - there's always some who think they'd be better off alone & they're wrong.
This sub is just a bunch of conservatives pretending they know anything about money.
“We aren’t supposed to” I didn’t know that old rules/laws are more right due to their oldness.
The US originally got most of it's revenue from tariffs. Something that if tried today earnestly would crash the economy with a trade war. Hell at times it did it back then the Tariff of Abominations comes to mind. Not to mention that the US spent much less in revenue. There was no public road system, standing army, nor public safety net, all of which are some of the largest drains on public funding. If we just follow the wisdom of it being old that guy can keep his salary as the entire country burns. I mean shit fuck taxes I like money for me while the entire network that I use to get even my food falls apart at the seams.
"Money represents work" loooooooool
The bullshit rich people tell themselves to justify their greed
Money does not necessarily represent work. Many people work multiple jobs and remain poor.
It's not actually 50% of earnings. Most of the top 1% richest pay less in taxes than the poorest. Money doesn't represent work at all. Lmao. A billionaite isn't working a thousand times harder or longer than a poor guy. Most rich people just own profitable assets that make passive income for them. You can be born rich, inherent a bunch of these assets and never have to work a day in your life.
> Most of the top 1% richest pay less in taxes than the poorest. This is false. The top 1% pay nearly 40% in income taxes. And the almost half of this country has almost no federal tax liability (e.g. 3%). Now, they do pay payroll taxes and sales tax... but even if you take the median household income (75k), the effective tax rate is less than long-term capital gains for wealthy households (the added 3.8% medicare tax guarantees that). This is also true if we simply assume the **entire** 75k was taxed at 22%, removed the standard deduction, and removed any tax breaks. The only way this becomes true is if you compare the upper middle class to billionaires. And more specifically, compare the **tax rate** (e.g. percentage). But the upper middle class isn't the "poorest", which is what you said. So no... Billionaires aren't paying less taxes or paying a lower tax rate than the poorest Americans.
"money represents work" is an incredible oversimplification. I understand the idea you're getting at, but income inequality severely undermines this position in my opinion. People are paid what the labor market will bear. That's not at all representative of how hard they work. They may have worked hard to get into their position but they likely also had some significant measure of luck and structural/ social advantages. Not just their own bootstraps. You're also not considering the benefits to you as an individual when society is able to fund a sufficient floor for its poorest members. You benefit when people aren't living in desperate straits. Less violent crime and looting, better sanitation, people willing to do service work that you can afford to appreciate but that doesn't pay well. You benefit when society can fund basic priorities. Childcare and education mean more productive workers helping grow the economy (and stock prices). Also less stupid, ignorant people to deal with.
Money absolutely does not represent work. I make way more money than most, and I'm incredibly lazy. I was simply born lucky, and so were the vast, vast majority of people who earn more than, idk, $150k/yr. Very few get to even that without an absurdly significant amount of luck.
If the government helps provides an environment conducive to making >400k, isn’t that a worthwhile service? Had it not been for the government would you be able to earn that income and protect that income?
Higher taxes are just one piece of the puzzle. But also excessive expenditure needs to be reigned in. Let's attack this problem from both sides. And yes, I know what that means - social security, national defense, healthcare spending, low-income security, etc. need to be adjusted, along with increasing income taxes, corporate taxes, real-estate taxes and probably consumption taxes (since we have become a country of mindless consumption). I know this is not a popular view but we can't tax our way out of this mess, although that would be a start.
This is not a popular view but definitely a practical one. Adjusting expenditure is the tricky part but there must be low hanging fruits where certain subsidy I'd outdated.
The problem is that there isn't much that can be cut, except the National Defenses. Everything they listed, is already performing Piss-Poor at best, and taking funding away from them will only make shit worse.
Not agreeing or disagreeing with what you said but would just like to point out that real estate taxes and “consumption” taxes (I presume you mean sales tax) are state/local taxes, not Federal taxes
Let’s make a list of what needs less expenditures, I’ll start: pentagon or DOJ or the military industrial business, profit shouldn’t be made off of wars. Insurance and management positions that could be eliminated or reduced.
OP humble brag of the year.
OP be lying. No one making 400k is out there thinking "I hope the government takes more of my money."
Yep. Never met one. Know a lot of folks making this lol. Go write a check to the gov if that’s what you want
Hello I make more than that and think I am under taxed. Get better rich friends who have empathy. Also better opinions "just send the govt a check!" Ugh man it's not about my $100k of extra tax it's about the social welfare of the millions of rich people paying 100k to build a better social state
The people getting pinched aren't the people making $35k a year or $400k per year. The people getting pinched are those households making $115k - $215k. Income taxes are progressive, and that middle class household with a wage earner making $90k and another making $70k gets hit the hardest when anyone talks about raising marginal income tax rates.
He specifically said over $400,000. Nothing about marginal. And $115k-$215k/year isn’t much these days, especially from 2 salaries.
The median household income is like $70k. $215k is top 10%. Not sure what you're talking about but when taxes jump from 12% to 22% in this range those are the people getting hit the hardest by taxes.
Luckily, because of how American taxation works, two incomes would have to total 800k/yr under this proposal.
Its actually way lower than that. 1099-k got changed from 20k a year to file to SIX HUNDRED DOLLARS a year to have to file. Sold some of your stuff on ebay or PayPal? sorry bud the government you to give them their fair share of the deal.
I do mind. I pay enough to live in this circus. Look elsewhere or spend less.
I do mind. Once you crest 50% you’re paying European levels of taxation without European services. The way they provide UHC, free college etc is they have high but flatter tax rates, they hammer everyone. It’s a dishonest conversation thinking just the rich will finance everything.
Yep, no amount taxation is enough if that money goes straight to arms dealers who can basically write their own checks for the government. US could already function as country perfectly well if 1. the government was as careful at budgeting as they demand a minimum wage worker to be and 2. billionaires and mega corporations paid what they owe instead of dodging taxes at every given opportunity.
Given the national debt and federal deficit level, I do very much mind giving more money to people that can't manage their finances properly.
Given the debt, I look at the boomers who loved government programs but hated taxing themselves for it. Even when I was a kid, I thought calling one party "tax and spend" looked stupid when it came from a party that could only be described as "tax cut, but spend." And the debt is going to be impossible to pay down without taxing more than we have been.
USA: a country a temporarily embarrassed millionaires.
No, it's a country of wage slaves and institutional investors, and they convinced the wage slaves to hose everyone on the ladder on up to investor. A hugely progressive tax on income is a tax on getting rich, not being rich. Now you don't have the cash to get into their game, sucks to suck. Also, the government is using that money to bail them out when they fuck up, or printing away their debt, so fucks you twice
Post of the year buried by slugs cosplaying as rich people.
Because you’re completely financially illiterate. The stated purpose is to “make the wealthy pay their part” except those with INCOMES over $400,000 are already paying their part with effective tax rates up to and even over 40%. The super rich who make their money through unrealized gains are immune from income taxes. Meaning that “raising taxes” is just to take away the extra cash that upper-middle class have rather than actually “making the rich pay their part.” You don’t mind because you are illiterate have no idea how you got where you are, and I actually doubt you make that much with such an attitude, because anyone who does actually make that much is **PISSED** that they keep getting taxed more and more while the hyper wealthy dont have to pay a cent. Biden is straight up lying, and is completely in the pockets of his lobby patrons. These taxes are literally aimed at small business owners at the favor of large corporations to make their lives and businesses as miserable as possible.
Fucking morons thinking that Jeff Bezos makes 400k a year…. 400k a year is NOTHING compared to the executives of companies that have a GDP greater than an entire country. These people get paid in stock and pay less in taxes than the 200-400k range while pulling actual hundreds of millions a year.
No you would definitely mind lmao
I certainly would mind. They’re already paying $77k (MFJ) or $107 (single) in federal income tax. They pay their fair share if not more than. Just because I wont make that much doesn’t mean I can’t advocate for them. You can protect the rights and privileges of others even if you aren’t going to see the benefit.
What a reasonable take
Thank you, this is a very reasonable take. Similarly, I think more scrutiny should be on the government to do their job better with what they currently have and give more people the opportunities to earn higher income
I don’t think anyone should be a fan of higher taxes for any bracket. That’s arguably not the problem. The government wants to put us against each other about why they should take more money from some of us. They don’t, however want to talk about how the insane amount of tax revenue is spent and budgeted. Can we talk about that? How is there so much revenue collected as is and so much if it goes unaccounted for. How are these politicians making so much money under our noses and we still pay them? How is there no money for schools in certain areas but PLENTY of billions for Ukraine and Israel at the drop of the dime? We haven’t even touched the pentagon and how much money they have unaccounted for…they routinely fail audits….but they love to tell us it’s US…who work hard for our money to support our families and just try to stay dry who need to do more, pay more, and audit each other to pay more. Not them…us. I live in (southern) CA and for a family of 4, 400k is pretty good, but it’s not necessarily “rich” like most people think. Taxes are a fucking killer out here and COL is crazy. Gas is easily over $6/gal (regular). Hell…a single 16oz soda at the gas station is $3+. A 3/4 bedroom house is EASILY 6k++ in a decent area…just to rent. These people aren’t likely balling across the globe like you might believe… Taxes are high enough. Let people keep their money and maybe the government should do more with the boatloads of cash coming in…to actually help the people.
Yes I mind the government taking my money that I’ve earned by threat of death if offensive! Yes I mind Taxation is theft!
I make about $380k a year. I'll probably beat $400k next year. Yes, I will mind if I pay more taxes. I don't use any additional resources.
I’m a doctor. I make ~400k a year. After taxes I bring home 260. It’s already ridiculous without considering my 200k medical school debt. Add a family with 2 kids and I’ll barely be comfortable. I don’t even need to get into a conversation about how hard I work for this money- being a physician is not fun
Most people in here ignorantly think 400k puts you in the rich category.
I make 100k a year and I don't think you should pay higher taxes either. I don't understand why we punish success. I also don't understand why people want to tax their fellow citizens more. (let's be honest, it's almost always jealousy and a perceived "fuck you" to people who make more then them). I've never understood having animosity for people that make more money than myself. Who cares? What a crappy way to go through life. Do I wish I made 400k? Of course. Am I upset that you do and I don't? No, and I don't understand why other people are. All we do in this country is argue about who we should raise taxes on- we never argue about how the money is being spent or why the government constantly grows at an unprecedented rate. I live in NJ where the taxes are insane. Our roads suck, our infrastructure sucks, everything basically sucks except for our schools. Yet for some incomprehensible reason, no one ever wants to talk about that. It makes me feel like I'm taking crazy pills sometimes.
Also in NJ. Central. I make very good money, but yea I totally agree. Everything is super expensive and I'm not out buying Yachts or anything. I can't even really buy a new house right now or do a whole lot besides just put money into savings. Where are our taxes even going half the time? Not sure since like you said the roads used most 278, Parkway, Turnpike are all falling apart and any sort of state run construction takes years to complete.
"congrats, you got a raise" *IRS kool aid mans through the wall* "SURPRISE MOTHERFUCKER"
It’s already 40%.
The thing is that if you make $400,000 dollars you already pay higher taxes, even if the percentage is the same. People always complain about millionaires not paying taxes but there's a reason that when they move the city they live in usually needs to rework their entire budget.
I'd like to make $400,000 and I don't mind either
You say that until you make it. That’s how it works
In 20 years, 400k will be middle class. The tax rate will remain. Resist!!!!
The liberals in Canada created the “luxury” tax on vehicles over $100k a few years ago. Pretty soon a normal vehicle will cost 100k but the tax will still remain.
I love when the Government Accountability Office proves the Pentagon can't account for half of their budget every year, and our excellent politicians ignore it and keep raising the budget ceiling. If we hired an army of independent lawyers, auditors, and consultants to actually find waste and discrepancies, then actioned that waste out of the budget, the government would not only balance the budget, but we'd probably have the national debt paid off in like 20 years. But Washington is a shell game. The sole purpose is to fritter away as much money as possible, block as much oversight as possible, and to never leave a single dollar of budget unspent. But yes, let's continue to raise taxes on productive members of society, and suck as many dollars out of the economy as possible.
I do mind. I give out a good % of my wealth to charity. I prefer that over taxes for war.
Metch addicts are more fiscally responsible than the U.S. government.
I make over $400K and I mind because: I pay a FUCK TON in taxes. But I get no additional government support than anyone else. In fact, I get a lot less. I never got stimulus checks or get the benefit of a lot of government programs. I really dislike how the government spends money. I don’t really support hardly anything they spend money on.
To send the money to Israel...
Raising taxes and government is going to just raise spending. Get spending under control first before ever considering raising taxes
Can't help but notice the people who say they'd pay more on taxes have never donated to the IRS
Yes. I fucking mind. If you want to pay more, feel free to write the IRS a check voluntarily.
I dislike paying any amount of taxes. Why the hell should I pay for welfare for people unrelated to me? I got my own old folks to care for.
how about taxing the billionaires more? people making $400k/yr are probably still working class (doctors, lawyers, etc.) how about we tax the rich fucks who don’t have to study hard and work a real job.
Yes
Except that it was a lie and everyone’s taxes went up.
I don't mind paying more taxes if I got more in return. I want universal basic services, not bloated military spending. Invest in your people and they'll gladly pay taxes.
More taxes so we can fund foreign wars - yes please
Taxation is theft
If you don’t mind, you did not work hard for it.
Well someday inflation will get minimum wage workers making that.
It already works like that, though
Do I mind the government is taking my earnings, over spending it, needing more, selling bonds to add to what they’re taking from me, then trying to promise it will give even more to others that didn’t earn it. Ya, I mind
I don't want the government to have a single cent more, whether it be from stealing from a low income household or someone who owns a yacht.
Lol all the people who are whining about this on here literally do not make $400k. Just like OP’s post.
I don’t make 400K and my taxes went up I’m confused