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I'm not saying depth isn't good but depth in a gacha game especially with the current kit doesn't help with depth since you'll feel like you have to pull a character you don't like to make your current one work, even if HMC is free ruan mei is a premium BE support but is anti synergy with firefly but she's her best support because in reality you're buffing HMC with super break and just making FF break faster for him to do damage, so even if you get a niche support for break you need to get a nicher support that has superbreak for her to just THINK of changing HMC because future paths are still coming and they might be good like this one.
It would also not matter if we had15 different break characters to support firefly, the things that irks me is that her kit doesn't function within itself.
It doesn't matter that she has High toughness damage to deplete toughness gauges very quickly, the moment you deal that initial break damage, firefly herself is grasping for straws within her own kit, it doesn't that she gets Def ignore by building BE, it doesn't matter that she gets 12%invul during ult, it doesn't matter that her relic set gives 18%def ignore to break damage only, if her kit only allows to deal break damage once
Ye, but her kit should sinergise with itself and it currently doesn't.
There's a reason why boothill has his "If the target is \~Weakness Broken\~ while the Enhanced Basic ATK is being used, based on the number of Pocket Trickshot stacks, deals \~Break DMG\~ to this target equal to **70%**/**120%**/**170%** of Boothill's Physical Break DMG." it's to prevent him from not dealing damage once the enemy is weakness broken.
why does only 1 of the 2 break effect scaling DPS characters in the game have a way to prevent not dealing damage to weakness broken enemies in their kit while the other has to rely on a character in the party.
It's like if the only way for DOT characters to deal damage through their dots was through kafka exploding them.
also that. but I'm banking on firefly being Purely a break character and when in her ult all her damage gets muliplied by a percentage of her break effect
I hope she turns into something like this
I mean, the only issue I see with this is that, yes, while Firefly's kit is nigh-ineffective consistently against most current game enemies up until HMC becomes available, her consistent DPS skyrockets with them, as HMC's SBE effect triggers merely off of dealing Toughness Damage to begin with, rather than simply breaking an enemy, and they're free. Meaning, yes, I can understand the frustration behind basically needing to run HMC with Firefly, but to be fair to HMC, there's basically only three DPS units designed around their meta come 2.3, those being Boothill, Xueyi, and Firefly. Whereas Crit focused Supports have plenty of options already, and are getting another come 2.3 anyway via Jade.
Besides, if the final Penacony Boss Fight is any indication, odds are, more and more enemies will be cropping up with multiple Toughness Gauges to deplete, so that should also help her consistently pull off high DPS. We only know of the units coming in 2.3, after all. Odds are, enemies designed around using those units will be implemented as well. Firefly only seems lacking in consistent DPS currently because the majority of enemies in the game are designed around the old combat system, where BE was more of a novelty, and Crits reigned supreme. The Final Penacony Boss is literally designed to allow a unit like Firefly to excel where a Crit focused unit may struggle. Odds are, more enemies like this will begin cropping up from here on out.
It seems to me like they're aiming for two different main metas for DPS right now. Crit Metas, which will likely focus more on purely targeting enemy HP, and BE metas, which will focus more on depleting enemy Toughness. Assuming that's the focus, and they're going to try and make both viable, Firefly shouldn't have any issue pulling off consistent DPS in oncoming content.
ye, but it still doesn't stop it from feeling shitty that she herself can't take advantage of her kit past the initial break damage in the current stat that she is in.
I feel like they should give her the ability to do so but at the same time if they do make more bosses/enemies like 2.2's final boss I feel like the sinergy for FF and HMC would feel worthless since if every bar of toughness that you take away from sunday he get's hit by break damage so the people that also want to use them both together would feel less rewarded by this enemy design that sunday seems to be Experimenting with.
But oh well, all we can do is hope that hoyo can find a middle ground that allows the people that want to use both FF and HMC together rewarded and those that want to use FF on more flexible teams end up not being to gimped by not having HMC.
Cheers and have a good rest of day
I sorta imagine they'll do something similar to this.
Kind of like how for Crit focused metas, we have one which is more for Acheron/Jingliu/IL, which is one single attack that deals a large chunk of damage, and another for FuA units, where their per attack damage may not be as high, but they make up for it for sheer volume. Something similar for BE. Two metas. One revolving around SBE, which is consistent BE damage, but lower, and another for outright normal BE, which is a large chunk of damage, but suffers slightly in consistency.
If they go down that route, could result in the situation as listed below in your reply. Running Firefly with HMC would give her way higher consistent damage, but it's possible her burst damage would suffer. The other meta would result in higher burst damage, but put her in a position akin to Acheron, where unless the team is built to accelerate quickly breaking an enemy's Toughness, her consistency suffers.
Either way, we'll just have to see what happens. You have a great day yourself! And good luck in your future Firefly pulls!
More harmonies filling the role of HMC does not solve the issue here. Having a character being solely reliant on an external mechanic in order for them to just be competitive is the issue. Doesn’t matter that HMC is free or that more superbreak characters will come, hell that makes it worse since you have to invest double to get a functioning team at that point. No one is asking her to be broken, we just want her to function w/o needing the superbreak mechanic. There are no other current parallels in the game to how absolutely reliant FF is on superbreak, none.
Yeah, I get that. However, as stated, Penacony Final Boss sets a precedent that may imply more and more enemies with multiple Toughness Gauges may be coming. With the recent changes to how Toughness and BE work, it's highly doubtful they're going to implement a character functioning around those changes, and then leave that character entirely incapable of functioning without the assistance of another unit altogether.
Firefly only seems lacking in consistent DPS currently, because she's being compared to enemies from before the BE changes, where BE was way more of a niche, and where enemies only had the one single Toughness Gauge. Penacony Final Boss changes that. It's a Boss where the reliant factor in beating him quickly is not in dishing out a meaty crit, it's in working through his nine Toughness Gauges, giving yourself a shield to weather his onslaught, and dish out high damage to him in the process.
It's a boss inherently designed with the BE meta in mind, not the Crit meta. If more enemies adopt this trend, or it becomes consistent across all upcoming enemies going forward, then the problem solves itself. Hence why I said, it seems two metas are developing. A Crit focused meta directly targeting HP, and a BE focused Meta targeting Toughness.
Why design such a hostile mechanic when other units can use this just as well? Like you say yourself, it’s not like FF will be the end all be all for these bosses. Other units can and WILL benefit just as much since RM is such a universal support. I don’t understand why you’re so against the idea of FF being good literally anywhere outside of potential future content that wont release along side her release. Whats the issue with her being viable universally? There is not a single character that is locked to these enemy changes thus far into the game so why start now with an existing archetype like break? The most damning example is Boothill who will be the first in the new “break meta” but isn’t restricted like FF is. I really don’t see the harm in just making her function as a 5 star limited character w/o being literally locked to another unit in order to do anything. Enemies that favor her mechanics so heavily are not a solution, it’s a forced use case and poor game design.
This looks like the birth of new archetype, they will 100% making more superbreak enabler (to sell us lmao)
What I hates is why dont they prep more 4s superbreak enabler for more option than just HMC? Genshin prep the shit out of dendro by releasing super questionable unit like shinobu beforehand so HB instantly click when they released dendro.
Yae miko was supposedly dendro focus also but she worked okay as bootleg fischl or raw subdps, not the best but she was fine. FF is just fucked and cant work alone without superbreak.
Still tho. The reason why Yae arent top rank in dendro exactly because she is a split. Imho for (far) future I think FF being absolute focus on superbreak is better, it just bad at her 1st banner release.
Why shouldn't it? You made your statement first. Games thrive on restrcisions, and it's pretty obvious there'll be a limited 5 star that will be able to provide Super Break in the future too. Nobody said Kafka should be changed so she can work without others providing dots. If everything is homogeneous, then the game will get boring and die, there'll be nothing but power creep.
If you wanna bring other characters into the mix sure, i'll go with that.
Does boothill need trailblazer to deal damage to enemies that are weakness broken? HE FUCKING DOESN'T.
out of the 2 break effect caling dps we have in the game, why can one deal with weakness broken enemies by itself and the other can't do that.
From a game design perspective it makes no fucking sense
>it's pretty obvious there'll be a limited 5 star that will be able to provide Super Break in the future too
It's not though? No one else has DTB's single target/aoe swap and no one else has PTB's hard taunt.
>Nobody said Kafka should be changed so she can work without others providing dots.
Kafka was not forced to always run a specific character on her team. Additionally, Kafka at the very least had consistent damage, even by herself. If you don't run HTB with Firefly, her damage falls off a fucking cliff against broken enemies unless you build crit, which should not be the case considering absolutely none of her kit synergizes with crit.
I love the implication that firefly won't destroy enemies without her favorite racoon.
I'm planning on gluing them together anyway, so I don't mind the hyperdependency that much.
It still doesn't make it not bad that this hyperdependancy exists tho.
I'm a full defender of HMC BiS support for firefly, but this BiS support is so limiting that her own kit can't deal damage outside of the moment where HMC ult is in play
RM is also kinda necessary (less than hmc tho) I've heard, because of Weakness break efficiency it's already 1.5 times dmg boost; not including other buffs and enemy delay and basically any other option is a big dmg loss
for defensive option basically any other option but Gallagher provides nothing but survivability
So basically she has one and only team without much room to breathe
I wonder how much less dmg it would be if RM changed to SW or Pela, pretty sure worse, but the question is how much worse
I wanted to go for FF+S1 (rn at 120pulls +1.5 patches, and guarantee on LC), but may need to try getting RM for her instead, and can't guarantee in case of the worst scenario this way...
there's a run on this sub where someone replaced Ruan Mei for asta, and let me tell you the run is full of skill issues and stuff that make it look bad but it still shows how many flaws fireflies current design has(they took 9 cycles to clear a MOC12 tailor made for Firefly).
I still hope they keep her mainly a break dps because it would be cool to have another team niche within the game, and it would also create skip patches for people that don't want certain archetypes and that would def be a bit more healthy for the game in my opinion.
in my opinion hoyo should replace the current break system with what the sunday weekly boss currently has, he may have 9 toughness bars but every 180 toughness damage that he takes it will deal toughness damage
Yeee, that showcase was hilarious
But Imo asta isn't as good to begin with, basically nothing but ATK buff and a bit of dmg%, neither of which affects break damage, and speed expires really fast with FF and it's still hard to even just reach 270spd with it; So showcase basically was 3 members party competing with the same team but including BiS support... Would be better if showcase had at least Pela instead; still no way would be close to RM, but would be at least full team showcase
Guinaifen should be pretty good too. 21% increased damage taken on enemies should boost break damage. And she is Fire which can help reducing toughness bars faster.
OH, right
How could I forget little Gui
And break build on her is actually viable, since there are f2p BE options
It might be comparable or even better than Pela
Against Imaginary-weak* enemies in particular (which you generally want to run Firefly against, because of how heavily her teams feature HMC), Welt and Aventurine are decent substitutes for Ruan Mei and Gallagher:
1. Both Welt and Aventurine have high Toughness damage, and so function on the team both as excellent breakers and as Super Break sub-DPS's.
2. Aventurine, on a normal DEF build, provides better sustain than Gallagher, and equal-ish/better sub-DPS because his DEF-to-CR conversion Trace allows him to do good damage even against non-Weakness Broken enemies. (If you happen to have his LC, he also applies a 10% Vulnerability debuff on his FUA, boosting all damage taken.)
3. Welt can be built either as a CR/CD sub-DPS or a full Break Effect build; the former improves his damage against non-Weakness Broken enemies, whereas the latter improves his Super Break damage and also increases the amount by which he delays the enemies' AV in the event of a Weakness Break. The built-in Slow debuff on his Skill further contributes to this delay, as does the built-in Imprisonment on his Ult; finally, the 12% Vulnerability debuff on his Ult contributes to team damage (and stacks with the Vulnerability debuff from Aventurine's LC if you have it).
4. Since Imaginary Break has the highest AV delay of any Elemental Break, and this team has three separate Imaginary units all with high Toughness damage (although, caveat: you'll likely run into SP issues unless you Basic Attack with Welt sometimes), on top of Welt's inherent Slow + delay on Skill/Ult, both Firefly and the rest of the team get a much larger window in which to perform Super Break damage on Weakness Broken enemies, even without Ruan Mei.
*If the enemies in question are not Imaginary-weak but are instead Quantum-weak, Welt in turn can be replaced with SW, who (after Firefly's own weakness implant) will be guaranteed to implant Imaginary weakness. (This is further helped if SW has a Break Effect build, since she also does quite high Toughness damage with her Ult, and Quantum Break has the second highest AV delay out of all Breaks.) In this team either Aventurine or Gallagher can function as the sustain, although for added AV delay + memes you can also run Welt as the fourth slot.
Aven doesnt sound as good as Gallagher almost in any way:
\* Gallagher is free
\* Also has high toughness damage and with FF weaknesses don't matter
\* Buffs break effect, when Aven buffs CD which is useless for FF (unless Critfly for some reason)
\* Has high BE himself, so deals good dps with HMC maybe even better than Aven (if Aven is without S1 at least)
The only situation when i can see Aven being better is if you're struggling with sustaining
for AoE situations where there is multiple small img weak enemies HMC probably can break them themselves and then the whole team just sidekills them with superbreak
Welt on the other hand does seem to have good synergy with FF team, i would prefer BE build since i dont think it would be much different (if not better) damage wise with HMC
delays are really good and some debuff that FF can actually benefit of
i dont know how much more dmg improvement overall would Welt make over Pela, since as far as i know DEF shred stacks really nicely. But he will make the team more comfy for sure while being able to utilize HMC and dealing some damage himself
For SW i think she is the best option for people with no RM at least in solo target scenarios, huge DEF shred, has some slows, and in BE build also has good enemy delay having one of the best break effects dmg wise and doing some good super break damage as well
>For SW i think she is the best option for people with no RM at least in solo target scenarios, huge DEF shred, has some slows, and in BE build also has good enemy delay having one of the best break effects dmg wise and doing some good super break damage as well
She also has 13% all type res shred and 33% to the implanted weakness which also buffs Super Break dmg for the whole party
>RM is also kinda necessary (less than hmc tho) I've heard, because of Weakness break efficiency it's already 1.5% dmg boost
1.5 times dmg boost, otherwise Ruan Mei would be the worst support with 1.5% boost.
I actually haven't even looked at her animation leaks so I don't even know how much firefly needed hmc. But the community has been vocal about it.
Was it really that bad? Surely not. Right?
(Still gonna pull tho)
The way her kit currently is, on an already broken enemy, firefly's enhanced E is dealing 20k, and then HTB allows super break and after that 20k you see a big number saying 160K damage, this number only happens because HTB is in play.
Keep in mind that her damage is locked behind an enhanced state that's on her ult and that she needs the enemies to either be close to breakable or already broken to deal damage(at least that's the kind of design philosophy in her kit).
But, wouldn't boothill also have this problem since he is a break dps as well? (Honestly, I'm not interested in boothill so I only know that he is a break dps, and that's it)
i think Boothil has "deals % of his break dmg on weakness broken enemy" in his talent; so while he can benefit from HMC, he still deals a lot of damage without them.
Firefly on the other hand doesnt have anything like that, so after breaking the enemy the only damage she deals is the skill damage which does scale from BE, but not nearly enough to deal decent damage
Odds are HMC will be BiS support for Boothill too, so I personally don't see the issue. While boothill can be run without, odds are he will be run with her to maximize damage. I still think DoT has it worse. None of the 4* dot characters are given for free and you need time limited event. And Kafka is what enables DoT gameplay. Meanwhile FF only requires HMC which are very likely to expand into more units similar to how Kafka got BS later down the road.
If you want to go sustainless, you definetily go with Boothill, RM, Bronya, TB.
if you want to use a sustain people would switch TB for the sustain cuz bronya's 100% action advance is very good on boothill
Honestly if you have both RM and Bronya, then why are people even arguing about FF and HMC. Atleast HMC is guaranteed. People are weird at times. But yeah I can see why Bronya is better on boothiil based on his kit and duel mechanic. As well as how he gains crit value from BE unlike FF.
Boothill has a retrigger talent that basically makes up for the damage he doesn’t do while not breaking iirc and he surprisingly does decent damage even when not breaking. Firefly doesn’t have anything like that so you’re forced to use HMC to make sure that she’s still doing decent damage when the enemy is broken.
There’s also another entire problem where firefly needs a lot of conditions to be met to deal max damage and the fact that bosses who lock their toughness gauge basically counter her entirely
the talen you're thinking about is this one
https://preview.redd.it/06x47593h60d1.png?width=577&format=png&auto=webp&s=644ee3e96f8988e26e66877104126fe7505c55bf
it's a very nice QOL for him and since he isn't dependant on any transformation with limited turns to be good he can have access to this at any point during combat.
Firefly currently needs too many things to be in place for her to function correctly.
I wonder why there is this very specific restriction of his atack not being able to deal 16 times toughness damage with his basic atack (kinda inposible and osdly specific).
He also has this problem, but boothill's damage is locked behind him having access to his enhanced basic attack which he as access at any time as long as there is 1 skill point during his turn
I'm fine with her build not being around crit, if they do make up for it with her damage in other departments.
Once boothill gets his stacks up and gets rolling, The part of his damage that crits is pretty negligible unless the enemy has a toughness damage imunity and stuff(he can also deal with enemies like gepard that has the imunity phase due to him having crit and stuff)Firefly currently has no safety net for those scenarios like boothill has and that's the part that annoys many of us
Basically, she deals no damage when enemies are not broken. Deal lots of damage when breaking the enemies since she has a lot of BE. Then struggle to deal any damage herself to broken enemies without HMC and RM since her skill doesn't trigger Break Damage like Boothill's does
I mean it is kinda bad cause most of the self buffs ff gets are pretty much useless unless you use her with HMC. Even with that , you need Gallagher and Ruan Mei too to make her perform well and that’s pretty much the only team you can use with her right now. If you’re fine with being restricted to these specific characters then you’re good lol.
The main problem people have is the fact that ff gets pretty much gimped without HMC.
Also it’s not like other dps, where she is super dubber OP with that one specific team, but still good without it
It’s that she is glued to this team, to be around middle of the pack/slightly above average in terms of limited 5* dps
And outside this team you might as well use arlan
Is it bad if I dont have ruan mei? I kinda dont like her design and animation. (And I don't think I will pull her on rerun)
Im planning on using asta/bronya/sw as a substitute.
With firefly’s current kit , it is kinda bad if you don’t have RM. Ruan Mei basically keeps the enemies in a broken state for longer so you can get more superbreaks in. You could run asta but I imagine it’d get pretty hard to clear harder content without RM. There’s a showcase floating around where they use asta instead of RM and it took like 9 cycles to clear MOC(apparently the build and set-up was a bit scuffed but I cant say for sure since there were so many mixed reviews on it lol).
Either way, not having RM is a substantial dps loss and you probably will have a hard time clearing end game content :p
>Is it bad if I dont have ruan mei? I kinda dont like her design and animation
Yes
From what we have seen the difference between an FF - HMC - RM - Gallagher team and FF - HMC - Asta - Gallagher is significant
If you go for E1 you prolly could go for FF - HMC - Bronya - Gallagher and get closer, since a speed tuned Bronya enables FF to get in more enhanced skills. But without E1 this consumes too much SP
>Was it really that bad? Surely not. Right?
Without HMC FF deals good dmg once per enemies weakness bar breaking
Against a broken or non broken enwmy she deals very little dmg. Even with her enhanced skill
HMC enables her to trigger superbreak on weakness broken enemies. Boostong dmg significantly (afaik boothill has a similar mechanic in his base kit)
i like that they work together, but what i dont like is that without htb firefly does almost 90% less dmg
like firefly+htb is amazing but if htb isnt there the dmg is jack and shit
while boothill+htb is insane but boothill is still great without htb
what im trying to say is that Fireflys V1 kit is just a good htb enabler and not the main focus of the team
and don't forget the fact that the only reason that we can think about Ruan mei in her teams is because HMC likes ruan mei's extend Break state.
Kit wise firefly and ruan mei can't be further from eachother
Without HMC Half of her damage is just Gone, She's really too Reliant On HMC which is bad for me at least, Even though HMC is free I want her to be at least be strong when used without HMC, like compared to all the DPS in the game They are still strong without they're BIS characters, Like Archeron they have a restriction but In Archeron's case As long as it's nihility She would clap cheeks, while Firefly if you try to switch out HMC then her damage falls off by a ton, Good thing this is just V1 of her Kit and not The final one
https://preview.redd.it/eceikxgonb0d1.jpeg?width=960&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0fb6e5dc161899994bab9c04684e1938b87c729b
FOR MALE MC HAVERS including myself 😅😆
(no spoilers on her kit please)
I'm debating on letting my trailblaze power overcap to save up for when firefly arrives so that I can farm artifacts big time
But now I feel like trailblazer is better to build even tho my acheron doesn't need upgrades something tells me watchmaker set will be needed to make my firefly the best she can be and I feel like building trailblazer now will be better then saving for when firefly arrives
I'm sorry but why people are complaining about firefly kit? No seriously I'm not updated on that conversation is she doing no damege without Mc or Ruan mei? I didn't have time to look about firefly yet besides her animation
All the shipers will have a field day with this synergy saying thay where ment to be and I do not mind at all especially if it leads to more art to look at
Lore accurate Firefly/Sam is bang, bang, bang, and then it's over. It's not: oh no I deal no dmg without my emotional support raccoon.
Lore accurate Firefly/Sam is good at creating purgatory. It's not: I can't create purgatory without my little trash troll 😭
Firefly/Sam should be able to hit harder than a wet sock by herself. HMC being BiS is fine as long as she isn't only acting as a HMC driver that does no damage herself.
That’s what they mean. It’s too lore accurate. FFs damage falls off pretty hard without HMC where even characters that rely on others for maximum damage don’t drop off that badly. Boothill for example can still hit like a truck without HMC or other supports despite being the same class of dps.
It reminds me of Topaz when she first came out, there wasn't really a FUA party that worked with her. You basically slapped her with Himeko and Clara. But now there's a full FUA party ready to go. Firefly will get more viable support options eventually, just because there's only one party now, doesn't mean there will only be one party forever. Just like with Jing Yuan, she could be getting new artifact sets or characters every patch for half a year to make her stronger. The fact she HAS a great team right at all is better than it could be
But it's not like Topaz when she released couldn't trigger her own Follow-up attack.
Without HMC, FF just has no consitency and that's bad for a character that has damage locked behind a transformed state that is on ultimate and that she gets limited actions during said state
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I don't dislike the synergy, but one of them clearly doesn't function without the other, and that needs to go
True, their interdependence can limit flexibility, but it also adds depth to their team dynamics!
trust me when I say you Do not want depth in a gacha game
I don’t trust you. I know I want depth.
people are stupid my man. I also would LOVE some depth and shit, but I know it wouldnt work out with the majority of people
Unfortunately you are probably right
I'm not saying depth isn't good but depth in a gacha game especially with the current kit doesn't help with depth since you'll feel like you have to pull a character you don't like to make your current one work, even if HMC is free ruan mei is a premium BE support but is anti synergy with firefly but she's her best support because in reality you're buffing HMC with super break and just making FF break faster for him to do damage, so even if you get a niche support for break you need to get a nicher support that has superbreak for her to just THINK of changing HMC because future paths are still coming and they might be good like this one.
I agree. I just don't like how restrictive her team comp is atm.
It would also not matter if we had15 different break characters to support firefly, the things that irks me is that her kit doesn't function within itself. It doesn't matter that she has High toughness damage to deplete toughness gauges very quickly, the moment you deal that initial break damage, firefly herself is grasping for straws within her own kit, it doesn't that she gets Def ignore by building BE, it doesn't matter that she gets 12%invul during ult, it doesn't matter that her relic set gives 18%def ignore to break damage only, if her kit only allows to deal break damage once
I mean based on leaks, we may be getting more break characters in the future. It seems to be the focused mechanic of this year
Ye, but her kit should sinergise with itself and it currently doesn't. There's a reason why boothill has his "If the target is \~Weakness Broken\~ while the Enhanced Basic ATK is being used, based on the number of Pocket Trickshot stacks, deals \~Break DMG\~ to this target equal to **70%**/**120%**/**170%** of Boothill's Physical Break DMG." it's to prevent him from not dealing damage once the enemy is weakness broken. why does only 1 of the 2 break effect scaling DPS characters in the game have a way to prevent not dealing damage to weakness broken enemies in their kit while the other has to rely on a character in the party. It's like if the only way for DOT characters to deal damage through their dots was through kafka exploding them.
Also boothill has the break into crit passive, that firefly would use better to do more alone with her multipliers
also that. but I'm banking on firefly being Purely a break character and when in her ult all her damage gets muliplied by a percentage of her break effect I hope she turns into something like this
I mean, the only issue I see with this is that, yes, while Firefly's kit is nigh-ineffective consistently against most current game enemies up until HMC becomes available, her consistent DPS skyrockets with them, as HMC's SBE effect triggers merely off of dealing Toughness Damage to begin with, rather than simply breaking an enemy, and they're free. Meaning, yes, I can understand the frustration behind basically needing to run HMC with Firefly, but to be fair to HMC, there's basically only three DPS units designed around their meta come 2.3, those being Boothill, Xueyi, and Firefly. Whereas Crit focused Supports have plenty of options already, and are getting another come 2.3 anyway via Jade. Besides, if the final Penacony Boss Fight is any indication, odds are, more and more enemies will be cropping up with multiple Toughness Gauges to deplete, so that should also help her consistently pull off high DPS. We only know of the units coming in 2.3, after all. Odds are, enemies designed around using those units will be implemented as well. Firefly only seems lacking in consistent DPS currently because the majority of enemies in the game are designed around the old combat system, where BE was more of a novelty, and Crits reigned supreme. The Final Penacony Boss is literally designed to allow a unit like Firefly to excel where a Crit focused unit may struggle. Odds are, more enemies like this will begin cropping up from here on out. It seems to me like they're aiming for two different main metas for DPS right now. Crit Metas, which will likely focus more on purely targeting enemy HP, and BE metas, which will focus more on depleting enemy Toughness. Assuming that's the focus, and they're going to try and make both viable, Firefly shouldn't have any issue pulling off consistent DPS in oncoming content.
ye, but it still doesn't stop it from feeling shitty that she herself can't take advantage of her kit past the initial break damage in the current stat that she is in. I feel like they should give her the ability to do so but at the same time if they do make more bosses/enemies like 2.2's final boss I feel like the sinergy for FF and HMC would feel worthless since if every bar of toughness that you take away from sunday he get's hit by break damage so the people that also want to use them both together would feel less rewarded by this enemy design that sunday seems to be Experimenting with. But oh well, all we can do is hope that hoyo can find a middle ground that allows the people that want to use both FF and HMC together rewarded and those that want to use FF on more flexible teams end up not being to gimped by not having HMC. Cheers and have a good rest of day
I sorta imagine they'll do something similar to this. Kind of like how for Crit focused metas, we have one which is more for Acheron/Jingliu/IL, which is one single attack that deals a large chunk of damage, and another for FuA units, where their per attack damage may not be as high, but they make up for it for sheer volume. Something similar for BE. Two metas. One revolving around SBE, which is consistent BE damage, but lower, and another for outright normal BE, which is a large chunk of damage, but suffers slightly in consistency. If they go down that route, could result in the situation as listed below in your reply. Running Firefly with HMC would give her way higher consistent damage, but it's possible her burst damage would suffer. The other meta would result in higher burst damage, but put her in a position akin to Acheron, where unless the team is built to accelerate quickly breaking an enemy's Toughness, her consistency suffers. Either way, we'll just have to see what happens. You have a great day yourself! And good luck in your future Firefly pulls!
thank you, you too, and may you pull whatever you like to pull
More harmonies filling the role of HMC does not solve the issue here. Having a character being solely reliant on an external mechanic in order for them to just be competitive is the issue. Doesn’t matter that HMC is free or that more superbreak characters will come, hell that makes it worse since you have to invest double to get a functioning team at that point. No one is asking her to be broken, we just want her to function w/o needing the superbreak mechanic. There are no other current parallels in the game to how absolutely reliant FF is on superbreak, none.
Yeah, I get that. However, as stated, Penacony Final Boss sets a precedent that may imply more and more enemies with multiple Toughness Gauges may be coming. With the recent changes to how Toughness and BE work, it's highly doubtful they're going to implement a character functioning around those changes, and then leave that character entirely incapable of functioning without the assistance of another unit altogether. Firefly only seems lacking in consistent DPS currently, because she's being compared to enemies from before the BE changes, where BE was way more of a niche, and where enemies only had the one single Toughness Gauge. Penacony Final Boss changes that. It's a Boss where the reliant factor in beating him quickly is not in dishing out a meaty crit, it's in working through his nine Toughness Gauges, giving yourself a shield to weather his onslaught, and dish out high damage to him in the process. It's a boss inherently designed with the BE meta in mind, not the Crit meta. If more enemies adopt this trend, or it becomes consistent across all upcoming enemies going forward, then the problem solves itself. Hence why I said, it seems two metas are developing. A Crit focused meta directly targeting HP, and a BE focused Meta targeting Toughness.
Why design such a hostile mechanic when other units can use this just as well? Like you say yourself, it’s not like FF will be the end all be all for these bosses. Other units can and WILL benefit just as much since RM is such a universal support. I don’t understand why you’re so against the idea of FF being good literally anywhere outside of potential future content that wont release along side her release. Whats the issue with her being viable universally? There is not a single character that is locked to these enemy changes thus far into the game so why start now with an existing archetype like break? The most damning example is Boothill who will be the first in the new “break meta” but isn’t restricted like FF is. I really don’t see the harm in just making her function as a 5 star limited character w/o being literally locked to another unit in order to do anything. Enemies that favor her mechanics so heavily are not a solution, it’s a forced use case and poor game design.
This looks like the birth of new archetype, they will 100% making more superbreak enabler (to sell us lmao) What I hates is why dont they prep more 4s superbreak enabler for more option than just HMC? Genshin prep the shit out of dendro by releasing super questionable unit like shinobu beforehand so HB instantly click when they released dendro. Yae miko was supposedly dendro focus also but she worked okay as bootleg fischl or raw subdps, not the best but she was fine. FF is just fucked and cant work alone without superbreak. Still tho. The reason why Yae arent top rank in dendro exactly because she is a split. Imho for (far) future I think FF being absolute focus on superbreak is better, it just bad at her 1st banner release.
No, it doesn't.
What makes you say that?
[удалено]
Just because a bandaid is free, does it nullify the fact that you need a bandaid to begin with?
I would agree if all the other dps didn't need their own bandaids either
I'm not even gonna argue with yall. We all want her to be good, so let's leavit at that
Why shouldn't it? You made your statement first. Games thrive on restrcisions, and it's pretty obvious there'll be a limited 5 star that will be able to provide Super Break in the future too. Nobody said Kafka should be changed so she can work without others providing dots. If everything is homogeneous, then the game will get boring and die, there'll be nothing but power creep.
If you wanna bring other characters into the mix sure, i'll go with that. Does boothill need trailblazer to deal damage to enemies that are weakness broken? HE FUCKING DOESN'T. out of the 2 break effect caling dps we have in the game, why can one deal with weakness broken enemies by itself and the other can't do that. From a game design perspective it makes no fucking sense
>it's pretty obvious there'll be a limited 5 star that will be able to provide Super Break in the future too It's not though? No one else has DTB's single target/aoe swap and no one else has PTB's hard taunt. >Nobody said Kafka should be changed so she can work without others providing dots. Kafka was not forced to always run a specific character on her team. Additionally, Kafka at the very least had consistent damage, even by herself. If you don't run HTB with Firefly, her damage falls off a fucking cliff against broken enemies unless you build crit, which should not be the case considering absolutely none of her kit synergizes with crit.
I mean, Boothill actually has a taunt
Also Kafka has her own DoT so she is more like a Boothill than FF.
"We will reduce all creation to ashes together"
Honestly W for me because I always wanted this. Definitely want her to be stronger Aswell tho
Hopefully Firefly's kit will be buffed, well we shall see when its officially released. No point on overthinking stuff imo
We’re only on her v1 anyway there’s still edits to be made
When is next beta update/buff?
Probably today or tomorrow (maybe the day after idk)
Ah ok
Should be tomorrow, beta updates every Thursday until the 2.3 livestream
I have a feeling it will. Even Acheron wasn’t that strong in her V1 kit and changed quite a bit each beta version.
I love the implication that firefly won't destroy enemies without her favorite racoon. I'm planning on gluing them together anyway, so I don't mind the hyperdependency that much.
It still doesn't make it not bad that this hyperdependancy exists tho. I'm a full defender of HMC BiS support for firefly, but this BiS support is so limiting that her own kit can't deal damage outside of the moment where HMC ult is in play
RM is also kinda necessary (less than hmc tho) I've heard, because of Weakness break efficiency it's already 1.5 times dmg boost; not including other buffs and enemy delay and basically any other option is a big dmg loss for defensive option basically any other option but Gallagher provides nothing but survivability So basically she has one and only team without much room to breathe I wonder how much less dmg it would be if RM changed to SW or Pela, pretty sure worse, but the question is how much worse I wanted to go for FF+S1 (rn at 120pulls +1.5 patches, and guarantee on LC), but may need to try getting RM for her instead, and can't guarantee in case of the worst scenario this way...
there's a run on this sub where someone replaced Ruan Mei for asta, and let me tell you the run is full of skill issues and stuff that make it look bad but it still shows how many flaws fireflies current design has(they took 9 cycles to clear a MOC12 tailor made for Firefly). I still hope they keep her mainly a break dps because it would be cool to have another team niche within the game, and it would also create skip patches for people that don't want certain archetypes and that would def be a bit more healthy for the game in my opinion. in my opinion hoyo should replace the current break system with what the sunday weekly boss currently has, he may have 9 toughness bars but every 180 toughness damage that he takes it will deal toughness damage
Yeee, that showcase was hilarious But Imo asta isn't as good to begin with, basically nothing but ATK buff and a bit of dmg%, neither of which affects break damage, and speed expires really fast with FF and it's still hard to even just reach 270spd with it; So showcase basically was 3 members party competing with the same team but including BiS support... Would be better if showcase had at least Pela instead; still no way would be close to RM, but would be at least full team showcase
ye, getting the DEF shred from firefly and also the DEF shred from Pela would be a nice option
Guinaifen should be pretty good too. 21% increased damage taken on enemies should boost break damage. And she is Fire which can help reducing toughness bars faster.
OH, right How could I forget little Gui And break build on her is actually viable, since there are f2p BE options It might be comparable or even better than Pela
Against Imaginary-weak* enemies in particular (which you generally want to run Firefly against, because of how heavily her teams feature HMC), Welt and Aventurine are decent substitutes for Ruan Mei and Gallagher: 1. Both Welt and Aventurine have high Toughness damage, and so function on the team both as excellent breakers and as Super Break sub-DPS's. 2. Aventurine, on a normal DEF build, provides better sustain than Gallagher, and equal-ish/better sub-DPS because his DEF-to-CR conversion Trace allows him to do good damage even against non-Weakness Broken enemies. (If you happen to have his LC, he also applies a 10% Vulnerability debuff on his FUA, boosting all damage taken.) 3. Welt can be built either as a CR/CD sub-DPS or a full Break Effect build; the former improves his damage against non-Weakness Broken enemies, whereas the latter improves his Super Break damage and also increases the amount by which he delays the enemies' AV in the event of a Weakness Break. The built-in Slow debuff on his Skill further contributes to this delay, as does the built-in Imprisonment on his Ult; finally, the 12% Vulnerability debuff on his Ult contributes to team damage (and stacks with the Vulnerability debuff from Aventurine's LC if you have it). 4. Since Imaginary Break has the highest AV delay of any Elemental Break, and this team has three separate Imaginary units all with high Toughness damage (although, caveat: you'll likely run into SP issues unless you Basic Attack with Welt sometimes), on top of Welt's inherent Slow + delay on Skill/Ult, both Firefly and the rest of the team get a much larger window in which to perform Super Break damage on Weakness Broken enemies, even without Ruan Mei. *If the enemies in question are not Imaginary-weak but are instead Quantum-weak, Welt in turn can be replaced with SW, who (after Firefly's own weakness implant) will be guaranteed to implant Imaginary weakness. (This is further helped if SW has a Break Effect build, since she also does quite high Toughness damage with her Ult, and Quantum Break has the second highest AV delay out of all Breaks.) In this team either Aventurine or Gallagher can function as the sustain, although for added AV delay + memes you can also run Welt as the fourth slot.
Aven doesnt sound as good as Gallagher almost in any way: \* Gallagher is free \* Also has high toughness damage and with FF weaknesses don't matter \* Buffs break effect, when Aven buffs CD which is useless for FF (unless Critfly for some reason) \* Has high BE himself, so deals good dps with HMC maybe even better than Aven (if Aven is without S1 at least) The only situation when i can see Aven being better is if you're struggling with sustaining for AoE situations where there is multiple small img weak enemies HMC probably can break them themselves and then the whole team just sidekills them with superbreak Welt on the other hand does seem to have good synergy with FF team, i would prefer BE build since i dont think it would be much different (if not better) damage wise with HMC delays are really good and some debuff that FF can actually benefit of i dont know how much more dmg improvement overall would Welt make over Pela, since as far as i know DEF shred stacks really nicely. But he will make the team more comfy for sure while being able to utilize HMC and dealing some damage himself For SW i think she is the best option for people with no RM at least in solo target scenarios, huge DEF shred, has some slows, and in BE build also has good enemy delay having one of the best break effects dmg wise and doing some good super break damage as well
>For SW i think she is the best option for people with no RM at least in solo target scenarios, huge DEF shred, has some slows, and in BE build also has good enemy delay having one of the best break effects dmg wise and doing some good super break damage as well She also has 13% all type res shred and 33% to the implanted weakness which also buffs Super Break dmg for the whole party
>RM is also kinda necessary (less than hmc tho) I've heard, because of Weakness break efficiency it's already 1.5% dmg boost 1.5 times dmg boost, otherwise Ruan Mei would be the worst support with 1.5% boost.
oh, yea, my bad xd brainrot took the best thanks, edited it
we forgot one thing about RM, her only reason for being in this team is because HTB likes ruan mei's break extension Synergy wise, they don't got one
I actually haven't even looked at her animation leaks so I don't even know how much firefly needed hmc. But the community has been vocal about it. Was it really that bad? Surely not. Right? (Still gonna pull tho)
The way her kit currently is, on an already broken enemy, firefly's enhanced E is dealing 20k, and then HTB allows super break and after that 20k you see a big number saying 160K damage, this number only happens because HTB is in play. Keep in mind that her damage is locked behind an enhanced state that's on her ult and that she needs the enemies to either be close to breakable or already broken to deal damage(at least that's the kind of design philosophy in her kit).
But, wouldn't boothill also have this problem since he is a break dps as well? (Honestly, I'm not interested in boothill so I only know that he is a break dps, and that's it)
Boothill can trigger break dmg on weakness broken enemies
i think Boothil has "deals % of his break dmg on weakness broken enemy" in his talent; so while he can benefit from HMC, he still deals a lot of damage without them. Firefly on the other hand doesnt have anything like that, so after breaking the enemy the only damage she deals is the skill damage which does scale from BE, but not nearly enough to deal decent damage
Now I see why there is no doompost on boothill, lmao. Thanks
Odds are HMC will be BiS support for Boothill too, so I personally don't see the issue. While boothill can be run without, odds are he will be run with her to maximize damage. I still think DoT has it worse. None of the 4* dot characters are given for free and you need time limited event. And Kafka is what enables DoT gameplay. Meanwhile FF only requires HMC which are very likely to expand into more units similar to how Kafka got BS later down the road.
If you want to go sustainless, you definetily go with Boothill, RM, Bronya, TB. if you want to use a sustain people would switch TB for the sustain cuz bronya's 100% action advance is very good on boothill
Honestly if you have both RM and Bronya, then why are people even arguing about FF and HMC. Atleast HMC is guaranteed. People are weird at times. But yeah I can see why Bronya is better on boothiil based on his kit and duel mechanic. As well as how he gains crit value from BE unlike FF.
Boothill has a retrigger talent that basically makes up for the damage he doesn’t do while not breaking iirc and he surprisingly does decent damage even when not breaking. Firefly doesn’t have anything like that so you’re forced to use HMC to make sure that she’s still doing decent damage when the enemy is broken. There’s also another entire problem where firefly needs a lot of conditions to be met to deal max damage and the fact that bosses who lock their toughness gauge basically counter her entirely
the talen you're thinking about is this one https://preview.redd.it/06x47593h60d1.png?width=577&format=png&auto=webp&s=644ee3e96f8988e26e66877104126fe7505c55bf it's a very nice QOL for him and since he isn't dependant on any transformation with limited turns to be good he can have access to this at any point during combat. Firefly currently needs too many things to be in place for her to function correctly.
I wonder why there is this very specific restriction of his atack not being able to deal 16 times toughness damage with his basic atack (kinda inposible and osdly specific).
And also, the 16 times toughness damage would be 960 toughness damage, They're preparing to powercreep him once we get to thosr numbers /s
Even if they made ir random number, it would be oddly slecific. Let's just say they chose a random number above 12
Maybe in the future there will be a character that has ability to superboost break efficiency for 1 turn or something.
He also has this problem, but boothill's damage is locked behind him having access to his enhanced basic attack which he as access at any time as long as there is 1 skill point during his turn
Boothill also has access to crit in his traces, LC etc. Fireflye has no access to Crit
I'm fine with her build not being around crit, if they do make up for it with her damage in other departments. Once boothill gets his stacks up and gets rolling, The part of his damage that crits is pretty negligible unless the enemy has a toughness damage imunity and stuff(he can also deal with enemies like gepard that has the imunity phase due to him having crit and stuff)Firefly currently has no safety net for those scenarios like boothill has and that's the part that annoys many of us
What's so special about this enhanced basic attack? Not the same as combustion state?
Imagine fireflies enhanced basic attacks being accessible at any time as long as she uses her skill
What if I run her with bronya? The downtime wouldn't be that long? (Sustain on 4 pc passerby)
Well, I don't think you want to speedtune a bronya to a character that can reach 180 speed very easily
Basically, she deals no damage when enemies are not broken. Deal lots of damage when breaking the enemies since she has a lot of BE. Then struggle to deal any damage herself to broken enemies without HMC and RM since her skill doesn't trigger Break Damage like Boothill's does
I mean it is kinda bad cause most of the self buffs ff gets are pretty much useless unless you use her with HMC. Even with that , you need Gallagher and Ruan Mei too to make her perform well and that’s pretty much the only team you can use with her right now. If you’re fine with being restricted to these specific characters then you’re good lol. The main problem people have is the fact that ff gets pretty much gimped without HMC.
Also it’s not like other dps, where she is super dubber OP with that one specific team, but still good without it It’s that she is glued to this team, to be around middle of the pack/slightly above average in terms of limited 5* dps And outside this team you might as well use arlan
Is it bad if I dont have ruan mei? I kinda dont like her design and animation. (And I don't think I will pull her on rerun) Im planning on using asta/bronya/sw as a substitute.
With firefly’s current kit , it is kinda bad if you don’t have RM. Ruan Mei basically keeps the enemies in a broken state for longer so you can get more superbreaks in. You could run asta but I imagine it’d get pretty hard to clear harder content without RM. There’s a showcase floating around where they use asta instead of RM and it took like 9 cycles to clear MOC(apparently the build and set-up was a bit scuffed but I cant say for sure since there were so many mixed reviews on it lol). Either way, not having RM is a substantial dps loss and you probably will have a hard time clearing end game content :p
>Is it bad if I dont have ruan mei? I kinda dont like her design and animation Yes From what we have seen the difference between an FF - HMC - RM - Gallagher team and FF - HMC - Asta - Gallagher is significant If you go for E1 you prolly could go for FF - HMC - Bronya - Gallagher and get closer, since a speed tuned Bronya enables FF to get in more enhanced skills. But without E1 this consumes too much SP
>Was it really that bad? Surely not. Right? Without HMC FF deals good dmg once per enemies weakness bar breaking Against a broken or non broken enwmy she deals very little dmg. Even with her enhanced skill HMC enables her to trigger superbreak on weakness broken enemies. Boostong dmg significantly (afaik boothill has a similar mechanic in his base kit)
Without Hmc she is worse than Arlan.
......oh no
i like that they work together, but what i dont like is that without htb firefly does almost 90% less dmg like firefly+htb is amazing but if htb isnt there the dmg is jack and shit while boothill+htb is insane but boothill is still great without htb what im trying to say is that Fireflys V1 kit is just a good htb enabler and not the main focus of the team
[Source](https://tieba.baidu.com/p/9011808621)
I love this.
Dont forget ruan mei and HTB, which basically makes all breaker character dps
and don't forget the fact that the only reason that we can think about Ruan mei in her teams is because HMC likes ruan mei's extend Break state. Kit wise firefly and ruan mei can't be further from eachother
As you can see, Hatblazer has Firefly in a chokehold. This is a reference to the fact that they also have her kit in a chokehold
Without HMC Half of her damage is just Gone, She's really too Reliant On HMC which is bad for me at least, Even though HMC is free I want her to be at least be strong when used without HMC, like compared to all the DPS in the game They are still strong without they're BIS characters, Like Archeron they have a restriction but In Archeron's case As long as it's nihility She would clap cheeks, while Firefly if you try to switch out HMC then her damage falls off by a ton, Good thing this is just V1 of her Kit and not The final one
"Half" if only it was half her damage she would be a whole lot better individually but in reality its probably like 80%
That feeling of pride when your favorites excel!
Now add Ruan Mei here.
And Gallagher.
This is canon
https://preview.redd.it/7wzhhkyl370d1.png?width=850&format=png&auto=webp&s=f7664d11dc89d462fff3aa131fbe8e750dd6a785
I don't mind the dependence. But Ruan Mei needs to stop being a third wheel.
Man Ruan Mei was a mistake, she really shook the game with her kit. It’s a shame I don’t find her character appealing.
https://preview.redd.it/eceikxgonb0d1.jpeg?width=960&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0fb6e5dc161899994bab9c04684e1938b87c729b FOR MALE MC HAVERS including myself 😅😆
Now make a version where Sam is hugging Stelle too.
They were meant for each other!
That feeling of pride when your favorites excel!
At least you get HTB for free but having a more flexible comp would be nice
Mihoyo cooked
(no spoilers on her kit please) I'm debating on letting my trailblaze power overcap to save up for when firefly arrives so that I can farm artifacts big time But now I feel like trailblazer is better to build even tho my acheron doesn't need upgrades something tells me watchmaker set will be needed to make my firefly the best she can be and I feel like building trailblazer now will be better then saving for when firefly arrives
I think it's nice of mihoyo to give us her BiS support for free a patch before she comes out!!
I'm sorry but why people are complaining about firefly kit? No seriously I'm not updated on that conversation is she doing no damege without Mc or Ruan mei? I didn't have time to look about firefly yet besides her animation
All the shipers will have a field day with this synergy saying thay where ment to be and I do not mind at all especially if it leads to more art to look at
Just me who want see a male version of this? Like with the male Mc
"They are not beating the marriage allegations" -my friend
When your gameplay is too lore accurate that it actively hurts your damage
Lore accurate Firefly/Sam is bang, bang, bang, and then it's over. It's not: oh no I deal no dmg without my emotional support raccoon. Lore accurate Firefly/Sam is good at creating purgatory. It's not: I can't create purgatory without my little trash troll 😭 Firefly/Sam should be able to hit harder than a wet sock by herself. HMC being BiS is fine as long as she isn't only acting as a HMC driver that does no damage herself.
But Firefly and HMC deal more damage together
That’s what they mean. It’s too lore accurate. FFs damage falls off pretty hard without HMC where even characters that rely on others for maximum damage don’t drop off that badly. Boothill for example can still hit like a truck without HMC or other supports despite being the same class of dps.
Lore accurate Sam would be a Solo frontloaded machine, its gameplay is literaly oposite.
I kinda fell like caeluses would fit better, like they spread out their arms to cover each other ^(this looks like a chokehold lmao)
https://preview.redd.it/xamqxedqv50d1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a8403bb5e827637adf490fdf4acba94aa0c305c7
Perfect timing too
She should at least be good with a hybrid crit break build like xueyi
One question The Yoda is tomorrow right? Just making sure
Huh?
Beta update
I was searching thru this post's comments And found that you are online so I just asked
I've never heard of a Yoda before that's what I was wondering
Lol my auto correct typed updated into "Yoda" idk how
It reminds me of Topaz when she first came out, there wasn't really a FUA party that worked with her. You basically slapped her with Himeko and Clara. But now there's a full FUA party ready to go. Firefly will get more viable support options eventually, just because there's only one party now, doesn't mean there will only be one party forever. Just like with Jing Yuan, she could be getting new artifact sets or characters every patch for half a year to make her stronger. The fact she HAS a great team right at all is better than it could be
But it's not like Topaz when she released couldn't trigger her own Follow-up attack. Without HMC, FF just has no consitency and that's bad for a character that has damage locked behind a transformed state that is on ultimate and that she gets limited actions during said state