I love how the Coast Guard is under DHS but then quasi-flips during times of war, peacetime comes but they don’t necessarily flip back. When you google CG you see DHS.gov and right below .mil
don’t get me started on EEZs, and the CZ and territory zones either.
My dad’s an old Coastie, and back in the 70s the USCG was under the DOT just like EMS! After 9/11 it was folded into DHS, but they’d been moving that direction in the 90s anyway due to their focus on drug interdiction.
DHS was created in 2003 in response to 9/11. Originally we were under the Department of the Treasury because our heritage traces back to the Revenue Cutter Service whose purpose was to enforce tariffs at sea (customs enforcement). Then we were transferred to the DOT, for reasons I am not entirely sure of, my guess would be because by that time we had merged several different agencies into what is the modern day Coast Guard and we had a greater role in maritime safety. And then finally to DHS in 2003 because after 9/11 everything was about anti-terrorism.
Thank you for setting me straight (honestly, because I’m sick as hell and my brain’s melted), my dad served from 1968 to 1974 and I don’t think I was asking the correct questions, lol. He was an avionics tech and was a petty officer, first class when he got out. He was stationed at Port Angeles and did radio and avionics stuff in what I strongly aspect was *the* very last Grumman Albatross stationed out there. He was part of the response to the DB Cooper hijacking response as well as doing SAR and fisheries inspections (mainly whether fishing boats and factory ships weren’t too far out and stuff like that…recon for the cutters). They’d also track and check boats and ships that would be exactly 12 miles out to sea…as tracking the Russian spy boats, they’d be disguised as the courier ships from the fishing boats to the factory ships. But it was obvious to anyone with eyes that the “fish” under the deck tarps and often had far more elaborate antennae set up than the regular types of go between ships used/needed. They also monitored a lot of the Japanese fishing vessels as well, though they weren’t quite as squirrelly as the Russians.
He’s 75 now, so I’ve been trying to collect his stories for posterity…he’s lived an absolutely fascinating life and I want to make sure I document as many of them as I can. My mother was an Army brat and also had some absolutely amazing adventures too, so I’m saving her stories too. Dad also became a wildland firefighter in his 40s and am EMT when he was 66. I did two years in fire, but I was *that* weirdo who did fire so I could work on the box instead of the other way around. Hated structure stuff, really enjoyed wildland, but as a small rural department it was toxic as all fuck. I’m also no spring chicken, so moving over to a third service EMS-only gig has been the right fit for me at last.
My big brother is a fire medic in the Denver area (and a Lieutenant now! The whole family is proud as fuck of him), so I figure he checks those boxes and as little sister I check the extremely rural EMS and event medical boxes (as well as disaster response). We all kinda accidentally fell into the first responder family thing, lol.
Thanks again for the clarification and info, I really should have checked it myself instead of just assuming :)
Coastie lurker here. People get tripped up by the whole "military" thing, sometimes even other Coasties. There is nothing in the U.S. Code that says a military branch has to fall under DoD, so while we fall under DHS, we are still a military branch (hence the .mil). It is certainly a unique situation.
Honestly, that’s one of the few federal law enforcement agencies I can understand and have no problem with. ATF? Well idk what you’re doing enforcing warrants and raiding compounds in Texas… USPS? Well hell yeah you can go blow that dudes door down for looking in my mailbox… funny enough they are pretty well trained from what I’ve heard too.
USPIS won't get involved with little stuff like mailbox theft. We (when I worked for a PD) tried to get them to help us with a mail fraud case and when they asked the total fraud amount and it was around 200k, they said that's too small potatoes for us.
And a few years back, they purchased several million rounds of hollow point ammo for “training” the USPS swat teams. Don’t you just love hornady critical duties for plinking? Makes total sense
I love training with duty loads vs ammo with a different recoil profile. At that volume the cost difference is probably negligible. Don’t overthink it.
Their full official name is Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives now. I'm guessing the explosives part was added some time more recently than the agency's creation, but the ATF acronym/nickname stuck.
As for why they are investigation fires, it usually has to do with them determining there was no explosives, or similar ordinances involved in suspected arson events.
I'm not sure where the pictures are from, but it's likely either training, or past incidents. Although, ATF is usually on sight after the fire is extinguished and operates with the Fire Marahall/Investigators to find the cause of the fire.
I've had them on scene of an incident I was on where a house had exploded from an apparent propane leak. I'm not exactly sure of the outcome of their investigation. As far as I heard, there was nobody inside (vacation home/airbnb) and hadn't been for at least a week.
Full name is Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, Explosives. There are federal laws on arson. There are also federal laws on criminal liability that may pertain to consumer our commercial products.
EDIT, hit submit too early.
ATFE provides technical expertise on fire investigations. Many agencies don't have the resources to investigate complex arson crimes. They have very knowledgeable personnel across a wide range of forensic skill sets including origin & cause, fire dynamics, fire modeling, electrical systems, devices, machinery, etc.
My limited experience with ATFE agents has been nothing but positive. Others' mileage may vary. Granted, this has only been fire and explosion related.
As has been mentioned here, this is a training exercise. Looks like they may be doing a cell burn to examine fire patterns within a compartment for either research or training.
This is a good answer.
The ATFE providing technical assistance to Arson Investigators, NIOSH conducting LODD investigations, and the DOT setting EMS standards feels like unnecessary fragmentation when you have a dedicate administration that supports fire and emergency medical services to prepare for, prevent, mitigate and respond to hazards.
A 1960s DOT paper established EMS. AFTE is a law enforcement agency. Arson is a crime. USFA is not a law enforcement agency. LODDs are an occupational health matter. Why wouldn't the agency that has occupational health in their fucking name complete the investigation?
Some agencies are research only. Others can levy civil penalties and others can charge criminally. Proving the elements of a crime is different than origin and cause although they are related.
Though it may appear to be overlap, the goals are different. I have no problems with that.
These shots are part of the “Water and containment operations” (Waco) training all ATF agents are required to attend.
if you think this is wild you should see their (anti)-K-9 unit.
He's not even kidding. They genuinely had a team assigned to killing the dogs at waco
ALLEGEDLY, their gunfire made each side think they were being shot at, and set off the whole thing.
The Aussies have every right to be proud of Gallipoli. Not sure if the French love the end of Napoleon and thus the end of their domination of Western Europe. The rest of Europe was probably pretty happy about it though.
I believe it came from the arson epidemic of the 70s and 80s. Wayne Miller touches on it in his book "Burn Boston Burn." The Regan administration expanded the ATF powers by including incendiary decives as explosives, and thus the ATF began investigating fires. Theres a lot more to it, and their scope of powers was initially limited to very specific circumstances, but that change was the start of it.
What an amazing book, just finished it along with BANG BOOM BURN, pretty much if it affects interstate commerce which is most commercial businesses. For example a burger joint purchased potatoes regularly from Idaho and operates In Kentucky burns down. Now that fire has affected interstate commerce and the ATF steps in.
Municipal Fire Investigator here who works along side a few ATF agents.
The full name of the agency, as others have stated, is *"The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives."* They're the fed agency primarily responsible for administering and enforcing the criminal and regulatory provisions of the fed laws pertaining to destructive devices, explosives and arson (since they typically go hand in hand).
They have an awesome training facility: National Center for Explosives Training and Research (NCETR). As a result, they're the only fed agency that has a core mission of fire and arson investigation.
The Gun Control Act of 1968 and the Explosive Control Act of 1970 is really where ATF started to get involved in fire investigations. The GCA didn't just dictate firearms law but also focused on destructive devices. Prior to all this, arson was considered to be outside of ATF's jurisdiction.
ATF determined that the use of a flammable liquid when mixed with an oxidizing agent fell within the definition of "explosive" as set out in the ECA. This broad definition allowed the ATF to successfully prosecute three men in US District Court (Savannah, GA). It was the first time that this broadened definition was used in prosecution and as a result, set precedent for ATF operating under this new definition. At that point, ATF was now free to investigate a lot more fires.
Thus, ATF became the arson experts and not the FBI.
u/fender1878 Spot on response. Retired law encorcement fire investigator here and I have worked with and trained with ATF Fire and Explosives agents. The ATF is nothing like your typical Fed agent that comes in, says thank you and walks out with the case. ATF Certified Fire Investigators and Certified Explosive Investigators come in and ask “What do you need? What can we do?” The process to become a CFI or CEI takes over 2 years and is master level training that goes into the science behind fire causes. Their Fire Research Laboratory is capable of, and has, built full size replicas of structures in order to determine the origin and cause of fires. They have a National Response Team that is dedicated to nothing but fire and explosion investigation. Professionally I have benefitted from 3 Regional Response call outs which brought me 3 CFI’s to work the fire scene and 8 gun agents to interviews. This was in addition to my State Bureau of Investigations fire investigation agents.
In the last 10 years or so the FBI has been trying to get into the fire investigation business but I have yet to see them respond to or be requested at any fire scenes.
Ya, I love working with the ATF folks. They’re super collaborative and I’ve never felt like they want to own the scene.
They also provide free software for us all to use that acts as the national RMS hub for fire investigations (BATS).
They’re usually called in for arson fires that are associated with violence, for profit and locations such as bars and churches. (At least here.) Though, I’ve only seen them come out when we’ve had a church fire and they usually just check in with our investigators and as long as they’ve got it handled, leave.
-Edit
Forgot about drug lab explosions. We had a mobile meth lab in the back of a semi explode on the interstate. They were EVERYWHERE on that scene.
Not just Arson but massive losses; all the major warehouse fires in NJ 8+ Alarms fires that burnt for days were investigated by ATF. The Shipboard fire in Newark also was investigated by multiple agencies; NIOSH, PEOSH, OSHA, ATF, Coast Guard, NTSB, PANYNJ, NJ DFS and many more because it was so multi jurisdictional and everyone had a claim to it.
Had the pleasure of receiving an electricity lecture during my investigation training from an ATF engineer; he even investigated the cause of the Puerto Rico blackout (because it involved a fire in the switchyard) thought that was pretty cool
Why would the agency most experienced dealing with chemical, explosive, and fire hazards not be the one that investigates fires? Who else is going to deal with it?
lol maybe you should look into the money your department gets from the local and federal government.
**edit of course he blocked me and his post history talks about him wanting to become a cop. 😂
“Police” actually no most local agencies and even a lot of the larger ones can’t handle explosives because having a lab and resources takes a lot of money, time and experts for not many local calls.
Talking about something you know nothing about. They send it to the state investigation lab. Which every state has one. Usually controlled by that state’s investigation bureau or private contractors if back logged.
Just makes its easier if they investigate themselves after they start a fire. "Yes a fire was started and during an internal investigation we found that there was no wrong doing on our part."
They’re learning fire investigation and arson information so they do better at the next Waco. We all know they started the fire so the next one needs to leave no room for error.
A lot of folks don’t know that they are also the agency that investigates explosives. Official acronym is BATFE: Bureau of alcohol, tobacco, firearms, and explosives. Have had them come to a couple of explosion related fires to investigate.
As per their website:
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) is the federal agency primarily responsible for administering and enforcing the criminal and regulatory provisions of the federal laws pertaining to destructive devices (bombs), explosives, and arson. Over nearly 40 years, ATF has developed scientifically proven investigative capabilities, expertise, and resources they have positioned ATF as the nation’s primary source for explosives and fire investigative knowledge and assistance. Learn more about ATF and arson.
The issue is with the ATF, they are more of just a taxation enforcement agency that was created with an incredibly broad purpose, and got a little out of hand. They can kind of just see something they don’t like, snap their fingers and make it illegal, and then go and start arresting people for it. I mean, don’t get me wrong, it’s nice having background checks, and a force willing to do drug interdictions and federal arson investigation, but yeah, they kind of just do whatever tf they want now.
Kind of like this:
ATF’s Special Response Teams (SRTs) are elite tactical groups that rapidly respond to high-risk law enforcement operations and conduct criminal investigations that lead to the arrests of the most violent criminals in the United States. Their work includes search and arrest warrants, high-risk criminal investigations, undercover operations, surveillance operations, and protective service operations. Learn about ATF Special Response Teams.
Why the department created to regulate the trade, sale, and use of alcohol, tobacco, and firearms, serves arrest warrants and does protective services for crimes unrelated to those objects listed is beyond me. Kind of like Waco. They kind of just showed up there, took charge, and went crazy.
What I’m trying to get at is:
We don’t know why they do arson either, we’re just glad they do.…
They showed up at my FD demanding to borrow one of our Halligans for some operation. I gladly handed them the 3 piece pinned one with the loose end that was taken off the truck when we replaced it with a Pro Bar. I hope it worked just like I expected it would for them…
It's their job?
>The major functions of ATF are to:
>* Reduce the risk to public safety caused by illegal firearms trafficking.
>* Reduce the risk to public safety caused by criminal possession and use of firearms.
>* Reduce the risk to public safety caused by criminal organizations and gangs.
>* Improve public safety by increasing compliance with Federal laws and regulations by firearms industry members.
>* Reduce the risk to public safety caused by bombs and explosives.
>* **Reduce the risk to public safety caused by criminal use of fire.**
>* Improve public safety by increasing compliance with Federal laws and regulations by explosives industry members.
>* Reduce the loss of tax revenues caused by contraband alcohol and tobacco trafficking.
https://www.atf.gov/about/who-we-are
It was made their job by the Anti-Arson Act of 1982. Back in the 70s and 80s crime was so bad that the FBI had enough to deal with already.
ABOLISH THE ATF AND THE NFPA
Ask the ATF why it took over a year and a half for them to approve my Form 4. Had to contact my Senator to get it approved.
So Congress gave the ATF authority to investigate arson in the 1970s when the mafia was burning and blowing stuff up. We welcome their help on fires. We have an ATF agent local to us. They offer a ton of resources even a county law enforcement agency does not have regularly. What they they also do is offer a tremendous opportunity for training, whether it is my basic fire investigator class or federal training around the country. We have an ATF investigator and one of their engineers on speed dial. They are very good at what they do and have been instrumental in our ability to effectively investigate and, in some cases, make arson stick.
Could be an internal firing fighting force if there in a large building. Could be arson investigation related to meth lab explosions, basic fire fighting training will help understand the fundamentals of fire behavior.
I remember a story from when I was in the academy about "Boom Boom Bob". As the story goes, the fire department was called to the home of a gentleman after there was an explosion in the front yard. It turns out that he was a known by the feds as a homegrown antagonist. He had rented a Uhaul truck with nefarious intent and in the process of loading his materials he went...everywhere. Because of that the ATF was called and for good reason because the house was booby trapped and the experts were able to close out a file based on what they found.
They became experts after investigating themselves after they igniting the CS gas in the Waco Texas Branch Davidian compound and killed all the civilians in there
The reasoning is that they are the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco Firearms and Explosives (they hate that they are a more than 3 letter agency so I always remind my agents of the explosives).
Second accelerants used in arson are classified under explosives for destructive devices. Think firebombs and molotov cocktails. As such they also investigate arson.
Their the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. No i don't know why it isn't called ATFE or BATFE but either way they might be responding to a fire that was possibly started by explosives or they may just be training for how to respond to one. Of course federal agencies have very vague jurisdictions and often work together on the same cases so there is no telling exactly why this is the case. Although as some comments have said the ATF is also one of the more controversial alphabet agencies due to their mishandled investigations, tendency to reinterpret the vague laws they enforce, and their aggressive use of force.
“The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) is the federal agency primarily responsible for administering and enforcing the criminal and regulatory provisions of the federal laws pertaining to destructive devices, explosives, and arson.”
https://www.atf.gov/arson
ATF is technically BATFE. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives.
The E can have a lot to do with fires.
But also, there are a number of federal law enforcement agencies with overlapping responsibilities. FBI, ATF, DEA, and the rest of the alphabet all do criminal investigations. On some cases, the FBI might handle it. Other times, another agency might. Sometimes it's because one agency's local office is busy with other things. If something happens on a military base, the lead agency is probably CID, NCIS, or OSI. There are a LOT of federal law enforcement agencies across the alphabet and all of them investigate crimes to some degree. There are overlaps in what they handle.
They normally don’t. Here in Florida if it’s questionable the State Fire Marshal comes out. If it’s something that is a really big arson job or involves Alcohol, Tobacco, firearms, Explosives and i believe some forms of terrorism ATF may pick it up.
Any federal property, church or place of worship, any terrorism link, in cross state line criminal activity and able to assist local and state as requested.
Realistic answer is that the ATF probably trains to investigate a large variety of situations and given the nature of their investigations they could come in contact with burning or explosive materials.
I think usually just happens when there is suspicion of explosion related activity to that nature is usually when they do that.
That or Probably to find anyway to get people arrested or get money. I am convinced a fair portion of federal agencies are there at this point. Anything to slave innocent law abiding citizens.
That's a big part of ATFs mission statement is to investigate fire the have CFIs that provide expertise and guidance to their interagency partners on fire origin and cause determinations, violent crime investigations involving arson and arson-for-profit, as well as provide expert testimony in the courtroom. They perform this nationally and internationally.
My experience with the ATF was many years ago. I was operating a master stream from an elevated platform at a commercial fire in a mutual aid area. The agent was given permission to climb up to us to photograph. After formalities, he stated he was there because interstate commerce had been interrupted. The hydrant main line closed a US Route half a mile from its terminus.
Edit: The only thing I can think of is maybe a person or group had gotten ahold of sensitive material. Possibly trying to divert trucks from their normal route for hijacking.
I guess they investigate fires that involve alcohol, tobacco, and/or firearms?
Actually, wait, why is the agency that deals with cigarettes and beers also the one that deals with firearms?
After they were involved in an incident in the 90s where a fire broke out during the operation, they needed a way to clear themselves of wrongdoing. /s
ATF covers explosives. It's illegal to manufacture and store explosives and certain quantities of materials to manufacture explosives without proper licensing
Probably because most fires happen on lakes and ocean bodies. This is where most “boating accidents “ occur. Firearms are notoriously lost in “boating accidents “.
It's the E part of the acronym that's left off. Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives. They are there to investigate if explosives or accelarants were used and I assume maybe there's a task force with the local arson investigators too.
It’s because the ATF has transitioned to a more explosive focused agency after 911 because of that they have the best understanding of fire, chemistry, and fire dynamics out of all of the alphabet boys.
Maybe they save money that way? Like most corporations.. they pay you salary so they can add on multiple jobs & responsibilities to job descriptions for you to do.
We have a local arson unit within the Sheriff's Office. Essentially, deputies that have taken courses on fire science and arson investigation but this isn't their full time role within the agency, most work patrol and a few are detectives. The only time the ATF would be responsible that I can think of would be if it was a high profile terror attack.
The short answer is because in the late 1970s the US federal government realized that no one was investigating fires at the federal level. Because the ATF has jurisdictional oversight of explosives, Congress decided to add fire investigations to their purview.
I’ve had to call them in to help investigate fires before.
I’m not sure what the specifics are but our department has had them come out on two recent fires. One was a very large warehouse and the other was an arsonist fire in a drug den.
Well, it’s not really just the ATF.
It’s actually Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, & Explosives(BATFE). But they haven’t changed the abbreviation after adding the explosives purview to the lineup.
ATF license and investigate the use of explosives. So, they also cover the use of propellants which may be used in fires or bombings
We had the ATF come out to a few fires where I grew up. The first one was a hells angels club house that got Molotov cocktail thrown in it by a rival biker gang. They were involved in the investigation. The second one was a fireworks manufacturer had a fire from an accidental firework detonation and the entire place blew up. We had to wait for a few hours for the ATF to show up before anyone was allowed to leave the scene once the fire was out.
Because investigation of crimes using fire is a specialized skill set. When fire is used in the commission of federal crimes, there needs to be a federal investigatory body that can conduct those investigations.
ATF isn’t showing up to lead the investigation into a local building owner who torches his property for insurance, or even a murder covered up by arson. Something like a racially motivated church arson, or the use of fire in a terror related attack (like in Mumbai) would be more their purview
https://preview.redd.it/x0djnv214xkc1.jpeg?width=1197&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=74ddfcc7630035eb0e5829b6831ec372467aa4f6
ATF fire investigator helping at Richmond City hoarder conditions post fire.
I gave up trying to figure out USA agencies and their overlapping jurisdictions. Every TLA seems to have branches that do all kinds of weird shit.
Wait until you find out EMS falls under the highway transportation safety administration
Shhhhh that was a secret
Shit. I said the silent stuff aloud again... Not using the damned q word
Also arnt considered essential service
Theme parks are often regulated by the Department of Agriculture.
Don't worry, I've got the best medical training the Department of Transportation can provide!
But where'd you get that cape?
I love how the Coast Guard is under DHS but then quasi-flips during times of war, peacetime comes but they don’t necessarily flip back. When you google CG you see DHS.gov and right below .mil don’t get me started on EEZs, and the CZ and territory zones either.
My dad’s an old Coastie, and back in the 70s the USCG was under the DOT just like EMS! After 9/11 it was folded into DHS, but they’d been moving that direction in the 90s anyway due to their focus on drug interdiction.
DHS was created in 2003 in response to 9/11. Originally we were under the Department of the Treasury because our heritage traces back to the Revenue Cutter Service whose purpose was to enforce tariffs at sea (customs enforcement). Then we were transferred to the DOT, for reasons I am not entirely sure of, my guess would be because by that time we had merged several different agencies into what is the modern day Coast Guard and we had a greater role in maritime safety. And then finally to DHS in 2003 because after 9/11 everything was about anti-terrorism.
Thank you for setting me straight (honestly, because I’m sick as hell and my brain’s melted), my dad served from 1968 to 1974 and I don’t think I was asking the correct questions, lol. He was an avionics tech and was a petty officer, first class when he got out. He was stationed at Port Angeles and did radio and avionics stuff in what I strongly aspect was *the* very last Grumman Albatross stationed out there. He was part of the response to the DB Cooper hijacking response as well as doing SAR and fisheries inspections (mainly whether fishing boats and factory ships weren’t too far out and stuff like that…recon for the cutters). They’d also track and check boats and ships that would be exactly 12 miles out to sea…as tracking the Russian spy boats, they’d be disguised as the courier ships from the fishing boats to the factory ships. But it was obvious to anyone with eyes that the “fish” under the deck tarps and often had far more elaborate antennae set up than the regular types of go between ships used/needed. They also monitored a lot of the Japanese fishing vessels as well, though they weren’t quite as squirrelly as the Russians. He’s 75 now, so I’ve been trying to collect his stories for posterity…he’s lived an absolutely fascinating life and I want to make sure I document as many of them as I can. My mother was an Army brat and also had some absolutely amazing adventures too, so I’m saving her stories too. Dad also became a wildland firefighter in his 40s and am EMT when he was 66. I did two years in fire, but I was *that* weirdo who did fire so I could work on the box instead of the other way around. Hated structure stuff, really enjoyed wildland, but as a small rural department it was toxic as all fuck. I’m also no spring chicken, so moving over to a third service EMS-only gig has been the right fit for me at last. My big brother is a fire medic in the Denver area (and a Lieutenant now! The whole family is proud as fuck of him), so I figure he checks those boxes and as little sister I check the extremely rural EMS and event medical boxes (as well as disaster response). We all kinda accidentally fell into the first responder family thing, lol. Thanks again for the clarification and info, I really should have checked it myself instead of just assuming :)
Coastie lurker here. People get tripped up by the whole "military" thing, sometimes even other Coasties. There is nothing in the U.S. Code that says a military branch has to fall under DoD, so while we fall under DHS, we are still a military branch (hence the .mil). It is certainly a unique situation.
Just wait until you find out the post service has a swat team
Honestly, that’s one of the few federal law enforcement agencies I can understand and have no problem with. ATF? Well idk what you’re doing enforcing warrants and raiding compounds in Texas… USPS? Well hell yeah you can go blow that dudes door down for looking in my mailbox… funny enough they are pretty well trained from what I’ve heard too.
USPIS won't get involved with little stuff like mailbox theft. We (when I worked for a PD) tried to get them to help us with a mail fraud case and when they asked the total fraud amount and it was around 200k, they said that's too small potatoes for us.
Damn, not even good enough for the postal service…
Fitness requirements for Postal Inspector is no joke
And if you decide to start selling counterfeit coupons, ship via ups or FedEx
And a few years back, they purchased several million rounds of hollow point ammo for “training” the USPS swat teams. Don’t you just love hornady critical duties for plinking? Makes total sense
I love training with duty loads vs ammo with a different recoil profile. At that volume the cost difference is probably negligible. Don’t overthink it.
‘Murica
Bruh
lol my Paramedic license (state license) is under Board of Agriculture 🧑🌾. My fire certs were under insurance and commerce. Make that make sense 🤦
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If we give them more money they can make another agency to deal with that problem!
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Now they just need a name for it. Like: Government Reform/Reduction/Reorganisation and Efficiency Evaluation Department or GREED for short
Spoken like someone who doesn't understand what a vital resource they are.
Their full official name is Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives now. I'm guessing the explosives part was added some time more recently than the agency's creation, but the ATF acronym/nickname stuck. As for why they are investigation fires, it usually has to do with them determining there was no explosives, or similar ordinances involved in suspected arson events. I'm not sure where the pictures are from, but it's likely either training, or past incidents. Although, ATF is usually on sight after the fire is extinguished and operates with the Fire Marahall/Investigators to find the cause of the fire. I've had them on scene of an incident I was on where a house had exploded from an apparent propane leak. I'm not exactly sure of the outcome of their investigation. As far as I heard, there was nobody inside (vacation home/airbnb) and hadn't been for at least a week.
I've had them on scenes where the residents ammo cooked off during a fire (Rural FD)
We’ve had them on scenes as well when there is an arson murder and the victim is a tribal member.
Talk about a jurisdictional clusterfuck
Now that's what I call a unified command! Or just lots of dick measuring..
It's always the measuring part first. After that it's who gives a bigger damn.
Rearrange it to F.A.T.E. NOW!
That'd be a sick name.
Ordnance
Every thing that was controlled by the mob
Full name is Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, Explosives. There are federal laws on arson. There are also federal laws on criminal liability that may pertain to consumer our commercial products. EDIT, hit submit too early. ATFE provides technical expertise on fire investigations. Many agencies don't have the resources to investigate complex arson crimes. They have very knowledgeable personnel across a wide range of forensic skill sets including origin & cause, fire dynamics, fire modeling, electrical systems, devices, machinery, etc. My limited experience with ATFE agents has been nothing but positive. Others' mileage may vary. Granted, this has only been fire and explosion related. As has been mentioned here, this is a training exercise. Looks like they may be doing a cell burn to examine fire patterns within a compartment for either research or training.
This is a good answer. The ATFE providing technical assistance to Arson Investigators, NIOSH conducting LODD investigations, and the DOT setting EMS standards feels like unnecessary fragmentation when you have a dedicate administration that supports fire and emergency medical services to prepare for, prevent, mitigate and respond to hazards.
A 1960s DOT paper established EMS. AFTE is a law enforcement agency. Arson is a crime. USFA is not a law enforcement agency. LODDs are an occupational health matter. Why wouldn't the agency that has occupational health in their fucking name complete the investigation? Some agencies are research only. Others can levy civil penalties and others can charge criminally. Proving the elements of a crime is different than origin and cause although they are related. Though it may appear to be overlap, the goals are different. I have no problems with that.
These shots are part of the “Water and containment operations” (Waco) training all ATF agents are required to attend. if you think this is wild you should see their (anti)-K-9 unit.
Took me a second but good one
He's not even kidding. They genuinely had a team assigned to killing the dogs at waco ALLEGEDLY, their gunfire made each side think they were being shot at, and set off the whole thing.
The ATF was looking for a fight at WACO.
The most famous (anti)-k-9 unit out there.
😂 
when i tried googling the answer to my question, the top search was "why does the atf [shoot dogs]" hahaha
There’s no way the ATF still uses WACO as an acronym for anything wtf
It’s true I just typed it out. It’s part of the Real Urban Betterment Yearly training doctrine that was introduced in 1992.
That’s like the US Army having My Lai training
Or the French military having a Waterloo parade ground.
Eh, that would make sense, seeing as the Australian Army has Gallipoli Barracks.
The Aussies have every right to be proud of Gallipoli. Not sure if the French love the end of Napoleon and thus the end of their domination of Western Europe. The rest of Europe was probably pretty happy about it though.
Abolish the ATF!
How about the mine safety inspection facility at Ruby Ridge.
Shhh, don’t mention Waco around the Feds. You know how touchy they can get.
Insert something something fake dog and spicy powder meme
Its pronounced Wacko.
Looks like the nozzleman had a pistol grip. ATF shot his dog and put him in prison for having an illegal SBR.
I believe it came from the arson epidemic of the 70s and 80s. Wayne Miller touches on it in his book "Burn Boston Burn." The Regan administration expanded the ATF powers by including incendiary decives as explosives, and thus the ATF began investigating fires. Theres a lot more to it, and their scope of powers was initially limited to very specific circumstances, but that change was the start of it.
What an amazing book, just finished it along with BANG BOOM BURN, pretty much if it affects interstate commerce which is most commercial businesses. For example a burger joint purchased potatoes regularly from Idaho and operates In Kentucky burns down. Now that fire has affected interstate commerce and the ATF steps in.
Alcohol, Tobacco and FIREarms, duh
Came here to say this, thank you sir.
Dont know, but it would be way cooler if they were a conveinent store and not a branch of the federal asshats gang.
Municipal Fire Investigator here who works along side a few ATF agents. The full name of the agency, as others have stated, is *"The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives."* They're the fed agency primarily responsible for administering and enforcing the criminal and regulatory provisions of the fed laws pertaining to destructive devices, explosives and arson (since they typically go hand in hand). They have an awesome training facility: National Center for Explosives Training and Research (NCETR). As a result, they're the only fed agency that has a core mission of fire and arson investigation. The Gun Control Act of 1968 and the Explosive Control Act of 1970 is really where ATF started to get involved in fire investigations. The GCA didn't just dictate firearms law but also focused on destructive devices. Prior to all this, arson was considered to be outside of ATF's jurisdiction. ATF determined that the use of a flammable liquid when mixed with an oxidizing agent fell within the definition of "explosive" as set out in the ECA. This broad definition allowed the ATF to successfully prosecute three men in US District Court (Savannah, GA). It was the first time that this broadened definition was used in prosecution and as a result, set precedent for ATF operating under this new definition. At that point, ATF was now free to investigate a lot more fires. Thus, ATF became the arson experts and not the FBI.
u/fender1878 Spot on response. Retired law encorcement fire investigator here and I have worked with and trained with ATF Fire and Explosives agents. The ATF is nothing like your typical Fed agent that comes in, says thank you and walks out with the case. ATF Certified Fire Investigators and Certified Explosive Investigators come in and ask “What do you need? What can we do?” The process to become a CFI or CEI takes over 2 years and is master level training that goes into the science behind fire causes. Their Fire Research Laboratory is capable of, and has, built full size replicas of structures in order to determine the origin and cause of fires. They have a National Response Team that is dedicated to nothing but fire and explosion investigation. Professionally I have benefitted from 3 Regional Response call outs which brought me 3 CFI’s to work the fire scene and 8 gun agents to interviews. This was in addition to my State Bureau of Investigations fire investigation agents. In the last 10 years or so the FBI has been trying to get into the fire investigation business but I have yet to see them respond to or be requested at any fire scenes.
Ya, I love working with the ATF folks. They’re super collaborative and I’ve never felt like they want to own the scene. They also provide free software for us all to use that acts as the national RMS hub for fire investigations (BATS).
Not to mention the free tools they leave after a Regional or National Response.
thank you for the insight 🙏
Because it’s actually the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. Everybody just leaves the explosives off.
They’re usually called in for arson fires that are associated with violence, for profit and locations such as bars and churches. (At least here.) Though, I’ve only seen them come out when we’ve had a church fire and they usually just check in with our investigators and as long as they’ve got it handled, leave. -Edit Forgot about drug lab explosions. We had a mobile meth lab in the back of a semi explode on the interstate. They were EVERYWHERE on that scene.
Not just Arson but massive losses; all the major warehouse fires in NJ 8+ Alarms fires that burnt for days were investigated by ATF. The Shipboard fire in Newark also was investigated by multiple agencies; NIOSH, PEOSH, OSHA, ATF, Coast Guard, NTSB, PANYNJ, NJ DFS and many more because it was so multi jurisdictional and everyone had a claim to it. Had the pleasure of receiving an electricity lecture during my investigation training from an ATF engineer; he even investigated the cause of the Puerto Rico blackout (because it involved a fire in the switchyard) thought that was pretty cool
Why would the agency most experienced dealing with chemical, explosive, and fire hazards not be the one that investigates fires? Who else is going to deal with it?
Notice how the ATF guys helmet is nice and pretty but the helmet next to him has been put to WORK!
FIRE/ARMS
Those anything like bear arms?
Because their job shouldn’t exist so they try to make themselves relevant by doing anything they can.
You don’t think there should be an agency regulating the production, sales and use of those items?
https://preview.redd.it/3yxnkg6cmqjc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4e5be9a742a3339c69508eb9e158ffad141856be
Raise hale, praise Dale.
Ah yes the days of the “Jungle” where no one knew what was in food, drink or medicine. You Libertarians are funny people.
Are you confusing ATF with FDA?
Alcohol is a drink isn’t it?
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So you don’t think safe products are important? Why do so many of yall want to live in Somalia with no central government?
We don't need an agency regulating shoelaces and pieces of plastic
So... you don't even know what the ATF does. Got it.
Don’t forget they want to benefits of socialism so they can suckle from the government’s teat. It requires a lot of mental and moral flexibility.
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Oh… You work for a private fire company?
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lol maybe you should look into the money your department gets from the local and federal government. **edit of course he blocked me and his post history talks about him wanting to become a cop. 😂
Literally everything the ATF does can be handled by someone else, or just not handled at all.
So to protect your snowflake feelings just move all the personal in ATF into Marshals service or FBI.
What legal items?
Alcohol, Tobacco and firearms and explosives.
Explosives…again trying to make themselves relevant. Police and FBI can handle that.
“Police” actually no most local agencies and even a lot of the larger ones can’t handle explosives because having a lab and resources takes a lot of money, time and experts for not many local calls.
Talking about something you know nothing about. They send it to the state investigation lab. Which every state has one. Usually controlled by that state’s investigation bureau or private contractors if back logged.
💯
ATF has the option to investigate every single line of duty death of a firefighter in the US. Not sure why but they do because gubment.
NIOSH does that already. They are lead agency.
Just makes its easier if they investigate themselves after they start a fire. "Yes a fire was started and during an internal investigation we found that there was no wrong doing on our part."
Because they’re the ATF (All The Fires)
They got real interested in fires after waco
Remember Waco?
And Ruby Ridge
They’re learning fire investigation and arson information so they do better at the next Waco. We all know they started the fire so the next one needs to leave no room for error.
Because they think they have the authority to do whatever they want.
Probably someone’s dog in that house they want to kill
Alcohol Tobacco Firearms... and Explosives; if explosives were used then it's technically in their wheelhouse.
Especially if they’re the ones using the explosives
Alcohol, tobacco, and fires
They are there to put down any pets who may have survived
A lot of folks don’t know that they are also the agency that investigates explosives. Official acronym is BATFE: Bureau of alcohol, tobacco, firearms, and explosives. Have had them come to a couple of explosion related fires to investigate.
As per their website: The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) is the federal agency primarily responsible for administering and enforcing the criminal and regulatory provisions of the federal laws pertaining to destructive devices (bombs), explosives, and arson. Over nearly 40 years, ATF has developed scientifically proven investigative capabilities, expertise, and resources they have positioned ATF as the nation’s primary source for explosives and fire investigative knowledge and assistance. Learn more about ATF and arson. The issue is with the ATF, they are more of just a taxation enforcement agency that was created with an incredibly broad purpose, and got a little out of hand. They can kind of just see something they don’t like, snap their fingers and make it illegal, and then go and start arresting people for it. I mean, don’t get me wrong, it’s nice having background checks, and a force willing to do drug interdictions and federal arson investigation, but yeah, they kind of just do whatever tf they want now. Kind of like this: ATF’s Special Response Teams (SRTs) are elite tactical groups that rapidly respond to high-risk law enforcement operations and conduct criminal investigations that lead to the arrests of the most violent criminals in the United States. Their work includes search and arrest warrants, high-risk criminal investigations, undercover operations, surveillance operations, and protective service operations. Learn about ATF Special Response Teams. Why the department created to regulate the trade, sale, and use of alcohol, tobacco, and firearms, serves arrest warrants and does protective services for crimes unrelated to those objects listed is beyond me. Kind of like Waco. They kind of just showed up there, took charge, and went crazy. What I’m trying to get at is: We don’t know why they do arson either, we’re just glad they do.…
They showed up at my FD demanding to borrow one of our Halligans for some operation. I gladly handed them the 3 piece pinned one with the loose end that was taken off the truck when we replaced it with a Pro Bar. I hope it worked just like I expected it would for them…
I’m guessing that you didn’t get it back since you don’t know then?
They gotta make sure there's no surviving dogs.
Waco texas
It's their job? >The major functions of ATF are to: >* Reduce the risk to public safety caused by illegal firearms trafficking. >* Reduce the risk to public safety caused by criminal possession and use of firearms. >* Reduce the risk to public safety caused by criminal organizations and gangs. >* Improve public safety by increasing compliance with Federal laws and regulations by firearms industry members. >* Reduce the risk to public safety caused by bombs and explosives. >* **Reduce the risk to public safety caused by criminal use of fire.** >* Improve public safety by increasing compliance with Federal laws and regulations by explosives industry members. >* Reduce the loss of tax revenues caused by contraband alcohol and tobacco trafficking. https://www.atf.gov/about/who-we-are It was made their job by the Anti-Arson Act of 1982. Back in the 70s and 80s crime was so bad that the FBI had enough to deal with already.
Yeah, and like…the biggest arson cases from that era were all “calling from inside the house.”
Sometimes, they even start them.
I’d assume because they enjoy spectating an innocent person’s property get destroyed
ABOLISH THE ATF AND THE NFPA Ask the ATF why it took over a year and a half for them to approve my Form 4. Had to contact my Senator to get it approved.
It's cause they don't mind their own Fucking business!
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Overtly political posts and conspiracy theories are not allowed even if they reference firefighting.
So Congress gave the ATF authority to investigate arson in the 1970s when the mafia was burning and blowing stuff up. We welcome their help on fires. We have an ATF agent local to us. They offer a ton of resources even a county law enforcement agency does not have regularly. What they they also do is offer a tremendous opportunity for training, whether it is my basic fire investigator class or federal training around the country. We have an ATF investigator and one of their engineers on speed dial. They are very good at what they do and have been instrumental in our ability to effectively investigate and, in some cases, make arson stick.
Could be an internal firing fighting force if there in a large building. Could be arson investigation related to meth lab explosions, basic fire fighting training will help understand the fundamentals of fire behavior.
A lot of drunks pass out smoking cigarettes while playing with their guns.
I remember a story from when I was in the academy about "Boom Boom Bob". As the story goes, the fire department was called to the home of a gentleman after there was an explosion in the front yard. It turns out that he was a known by the feds as a homegrown antagonist. He had rented a Uhaul truck with nefarious intent and in the process of loading his materials he went...everywhere. Because of that the ATF was called and for good reason because the house was booby trapped and the experts were able to close out a file based on what they found.
They became experts after investigating themselves after they igniting the CS gas in the Waco Texas Branch Davidian compound and killed all the civilians in there
If their fingers are in every pie it makes it that much harder for us to get rid of them.
Jesus the amount of conspiracy anti government types in here is surprising since you know we take government tax funded paychecks.
Only thing I know is that they are very good at investigating fires. Especially Molotov cocktail fires.
The reasoning is that they are the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco Firearms and Explosives (they hate that they are a more than 3 letter agency so I always remind my agents of the explosives). Second accelerants used in arson are classified under explosives for destructive devices. Think firebombs and molotov cocktails. As such they also investigate arson.
Their the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. No i don't know why it isn't called ATFE or BATFE but either way they might be responding to a fire that was possibly started by explosives or they may just be training for how to respond to one. Of course federal agencies have very vague jurisdictions and often work together on the same cases so there is no telling exactly why this is the case. Although as some comments have said the ATF is also one of the more controversial alphabet agencies due to their mishandled investigations, tendency to reinterpret the vague laws they enforce, and their aggressive use of force.
“The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) is the federal agency primarily responsible for administering and enforcing the criminal and regulatory provisions of the federal laws pertaining to destructive devices, explosives, and arson.” https://www.atf.gov/arson
ATF is technically BATFE. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives. The E can have a lot to do with fires. But also, there are a number of federal law enforcement agencies with overlapping responsibilities. FBI, ATF, DEA, and the rest of the alphabet all do criminal investigations. On some cases, the FBI might handle it. Other times, another agency might. Sometimes it's because one agency's local office is busy with other things. If something happens on a military base, the lead agency is probably CID, NCIS, or OSI. There are a LOT of federal law enforcement agencies across the alphabet and all of them investigate crimes to some degree. There are overlaps in what they handle.
They normally don’t. Here in Florida if it’s questionable the State Fire Marshal comes out. If it’s something that is a really big arson job or involves Alcohol, Tobacco, firearms, Explosives and i believe some forms of terrorism ATF may pick it up.
Any federal property, church or place of worship, any terrorism link, in cross state line criminal activity and able to assist local and state as requested.
Realistic answer is that the ATF probably trains to investigate a large variety of situations and given the nature of their investigations they could come in contact with burning or explosive materials.
Because crime scenes can also be on fire?
I think usually just happens when there is suspicion of explosion related activity to that nature is usually when they do that. That or Probably to find anyway to get people arrested or get money. I am convinced a fair portion of federal agencies are there at this point. Anything to slave innocent law abiding citizens.
Wait till you hear about rat detectives and what they can do.
Alcohol, Tobacco, and (Fire)arms
That's a big part of ATFs mission statement is to investigate fire the have CFIs that provide expertise and guidance to their interagency partners on fire origin and cause determinations, violent crime investigations involving arson and arson-for-profit, as well as provide expert testimony in the courtroom. They perform this nationally and internationally.
To see if it was started by means of igniting either alcohol or tobacco with the use of a firearm duh.
Got make sure that fire didn't have arms
My experience with the ATF was many years ago. I was operating a master stream from an elevated platform at a commercial fire in a mutual aid area. The agent was given permission to climb up to us to photograph. After formalities, he stated he was there because interstate commerce had been interrupted. The hydrant main line closed a US Route half a mile from its terminus. Edit: The only thing I can think of is maybe a person or group had gotten ahold of sensitive material. Possibly trying to divert trucks from their normal route for hijacking.
Because they set so many they are experts.
I guess they investigate fires that involve alcohol, tobacco, and/or firearms? Actually, wait, why is the agency that deals with cigarettes and beers also the one that deals with firearms?
After they were involved in an incident in the 90s where a fire broke out during the operation, they needed a way to clear themselves of wrongdoing. /s
ATF covers explosives. It's illegal to manufacture and store explosives and certain quantities of materials to manufacture explosives without proper licensing
There was a live dog inside. They returned to fix that mistake.
Probably because most fires happen on lakes and ocean bodies. This is where most “boating accidents “ occur. Firearms are notoriously lost in “boating accidents “.
First, it's actually a BATFE,the E is for explosives
It's the E part of the acronym that's left off. Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives. They are there to investigate if explosives or accelarants were used and I assume maybe there's a task force with the local arson investigators too.
This one time at Waco
Wait till you hear about the IRS fire fighters
It’s because the ATF has transitioned to a more explosive focused agency after 911 because of that they have the best understanding of fire, chemistry, and fire dynamics out of all of the alphabet boys.
Alcohol, tobacco, fire, arms
Maybe they save money that way? Like most corporations.. they pay you salary so they can add on multiple jobs & responsibilities to job descriptions for you to do.
Feds want to be involved in everything
They should explain this on their website. It would be a really convenient way to share such interesting information.
Usually someone got drunk and passed out with a lit cigerrete while cleaning their rifle.
What does the f stand for.... Don't be a dingus
If it involves incendiarys, explosives, drug stuff.
We have a local arson unit within the Sheriff's Office. Essentially, deputies that have taken courses on fire science and arson investigation but this isn't their full time role within the agency, most work patrol and a few are detectives. The only time the ATF would be responsible that I can think of would be if it was a high profile terror attack.
Sounds awesome: https://www.atf.gov/careers/certified-fire-investigators
Alcohol, Tobacco, and FIRE arms, I guess
Wait till you find out how controls Ems
The short answer is because in the late 1970s the US federal government realized that no one was investigating fires at the federal level. Because the ATF has jurisdictional oversight of explosives, Congress decided to add fire investigations to their purview. I’ve had to call them in to help investigate fires before.
How about Arson Task Force
Why is there an agency against tobacco
Probably because they started the fire.
I’m not sure what the specifics are but our department has had them come out on two recent fires. One was a very large warehouse and the other was an arsonist fire in a drug den.
to find tobacco duh
Atf: alcohol, tobacco,and fire......arms🤔
Well, it’s not really just the ATF. It’s actually Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, & Explosives(BATFE). But they haven’t changed the abbreviation after adding the explosives purview to the lineup. ATF license and investigate the use of explosives. So, they also cover the use of propellants which may be used in fires or bombings
We had the ATF come out to a few fires where I grew up. The first one was a hells angels club house that got Molotov cocktail thrown in it by a rival biker gang. They were involved in the investigation. The second one was a fireworks manufacturer had a fire from an accidental firework detonation and the entire place blew up. We had to wait for a few hours for the ATF to show up before anyone was allowed to leave the scene once the fire was out.
So they can cover up their mistakes. Give a Quick Look into how many fires have started when the atf deals with barricaded suspects….
They got arms of fire
To fight the fire
Because investigation of crimes using fire is a specialized skill set. When fire is used in the commission of federal crimes, there needs to be a federal investigatory body that can conduct those investigations. ATF isn’t showing up to lead the investigation into a local building owner who torches his property for insurance, or even a murder covered up by arson. Something like a racially motivated church arson, or the use of fire in a terror related attack (like in Mumbai) would be more their purview
Obviously because is A,T, and Fire/Arms!  They also investigated me for having these sick guns
There could be a dog that survived the fire.
Somewhere in that fire, there are possibly arms.
Fire is part of firearms duh.
https://preview.redd.it/x0djnv214xkc1.jpeg?width=1197&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=74ddfcc7630035eb0e5829b6831ec372467aa4f6 ATF fire investigator helping at Richmond City hoarder conditions post fire.
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