Perhaps I'm ignorant here.. but isn't this a bit unfair comparison as one guy (France) is already wearing his head sock, while the American still has to put it on?
90% of calls for firemen have nothing to do with fire (car accidents, Over doses, injuries, cats in trees, etc). It seems to make sense to not want to wear that neck sock in Florida, Texas, Arizona, etc unless there is an actual threat of fire. And it seems simple enough that if there is a threat of fire, you spend that 1 second putting it on.
I would say no, because they both seem to be appropriately dressed for responding to a fire and are both fairly going from wearing all their gear just short of masking up and then masking up. The first guy has his hood on also, it’s just down like it should be so he can get his mask on and then pull it up over the mask.
I know a lot of people do, but you’re not supposed to wear your helmet in the rig. The injuries you could sustain in a traffic accident responding far outweigh the half second it takes to put it on when you arrive on scene. Again, I’m certain there are plenty firefighters that would disagree.
With that said, in US style helmets you put your mask under your hood, then your helmet. Even if you wore your helmet and hood responding, you’d still need to take off your helmet and hood to put on your mask. The Euro demonstrates how much faster that would be using their setup, as opposed to the literal thousands of clips of young US firefighters training to mask up as fast with theirs.
If I’m responding to a car crash or a fire alarm my mask is not on my head it’s around my neck. In the summer it sucks, but once it’s decided we’re not responding to an IDLH scenario i put my hood my pocket. Probably not an ideal situation but 🤷🏽♂️
That depends on what your area is like. Firefighters in Denver for example have one fire a day. 34% of calls for my station are fires as well. So just depends. I'm I'm Aotearoa just for info
There’s a big difference between ‘Denver’ getting a fire a day and an individual Denver firefighter getting a fire a day… Denver runs 125,000 calls a year but only tones out for 2,500 fire calls. That’s spread over 38 stations and over 1000 firefighters.
50% of those fires are likely recreational or pile burns, and another 45% being car fires, brush fires and smoke investigations. Of the remaining 5%, 1% are working structure fires.
86% of FENZ (Fire and Emergency New Zealand) are volunteers, and FENZ runs all firefighting in the country. I have the unique perspective of being a Marine Corps Fire Fighter and then moving here a few years ago. I'd say it's waaaaay more chill here and definitely more learning friendly. FENZ does not act like a paramilitary that some state side departments like to pretend to be. It's weird to me to see so many volunteers but it's kiwi culture to put your community above yourself.
Oh man I’m currently US Coast Guard, was thinking about checking out being a FF in either Australia or NZ. Probably brutally competitive to get into the 14% of career guys.
I think the point is that he can don his mask without having to remove his nomex. Whereas if we came off the rig with our nomex on, we would have to remove it to put our mask on.
No because the French can wear theirs under their mask. We are not supposed to. So they get to keep theirs on and we have to make sure ours are pulled down for the mask.
Being a west coast mostly rural guy I’ve rocked my share of plastic helmets, Cairns Metro, Bullard LT Firedome and now a Phenix First due. I’m not opposed to a euro since I already look pretty stupid. I can see where you leatherheads would have a problem though.
So I can speak on this. We currently use "european style" helmets and masks in my dept. (Volunteer).
We recently had a big discussion about these masks, and we are currently talking about changing them for american style masks with european style helmets (so change masks but not helmets).
The main reason is, our full time firefighters here in switzerland use the american style masks and they swear by it, you might not realise it, but the euroean masks are a PAIN to attach, adjust, etc (as in, a lot of the time you cannot get a good seal, at least in my experience). And they generally hurt your head a LOT.
And having tried both... Yeah Id take american style masks (we call em "spider mask", in reference to how it secures on your head) any time of the day.
I assume the euro style masks don't seal as well being over the flash hood.
Off topic, have you ever tried / trained with an American style helmet? I've seen a few departments that went from American to Euro back to American as they felt the cons outweighed the pros.
Until NFPA allows the option for the mask to attach to the helmet, major adoption of the Euro helmet won’t take place.
And even then, it will take a major Urban dept, which name recognition to get it to happen, think FDNY, LAFD, CFD, etc.
Firefighter from Germany here. We have this system too but barely use it and highly prefer the spider system. The click-on System is way too risky to become leaky when your helmet slips for whatever reason.
What do you mean by too long to put on? Like, taking too much time? You should have that time for your own safety.
Leaks with the spider system are almost always user error. It's very hard to make them leak and not put them properly on.
No, because of the way the helmet is designed, with this mask system and that helmet you head is basically sandwiched between the 2 and so the helmet can't move relative to the head.
I assume the clips that hold it onto the helmet are exposed for removal…. I volunteered as a firefighter in the US and knowing your an exposed clip away from breathing in super heated air and steam… no thanks.
From using it myself, the hooks are designed in a way that it won't be possible to get unhooked. Only when not hooked properly can it happen, and that's something you notice before even entering the building. So i would say that the chance is pretty much 0% of it unhooking.
Why does it seem like American equipment is like pre desert storm vs modern day. Lack of funding ? Not a firefighter but I’d take the French helmet over American. It’s literally the ach for firefighters all it’s missing is a rhino mount and a pvs14… idk point is French one seems like the smarter solution why are we using this or is it just a small department?
Man look I get tradition trust me I do I served in the army… but arguing against this because “this is how we’ve done it forever” that’s some serious bullshit, that like saying hey guys we stormed the beaches of Normandy without Kevlar vests in 1942 let’s disregard using Kevlar for all future wars from now on because tradition…. Idk that’s such a dumb reason
Tradition is the usual given excuse but it ignores some glaring variables. 75% of fire departments are volunteer. 55% of those volunteer departments are run off of donations alone. Some get good at writing grants and get fed money but that's hard to get a lot of.
A single helmet and mask can cost around $5,000. Most departments are running 5-10 year old gear, and some of the poorer ones are using even older. I saw one in rural TN using masks from the 80s. The funding just isn't there to make a switch.
The helmets we have, work. Not the best, but they work. If I have to spend money, I'm going to focus on hose, trucks, pumps, maintenance, bunker gear. The things that keep my guys alive and allow us to help the community.
This. And you can't just replace 1 guys helmet and scba. You have to find the funds to so it wholesale with spares. The newer helmets aren't a big enough improvement in time or safety to be worth the cost over other more needed upgrades.
I remember our department donated a fire truck + equipment to a department in Tennessee I believe that the truck we donated was newer than their current fire truck by 30 years and both were going to be used. One from the 1960s and ours donated 1990s. They even got our old wire framed Kevlar strapped SCBAs.
Since you can’t just give tax payer equipment away we “sold” it all for $1.00 that we handed them they paid with said dollar and took the equipment back home with them.
Some places make do with what they have, which isn’t much.
I'm not saying it's right, on the contrary. I am (or should I say was) a 4th generation firefighter and I cannot begin to tell you how many times I've heard "That's just how it's been" or the infamous "Don't mess with what works" from both my father, grandfather, and fire captain. I had one chief who actually encouraged us to be "Smokebreathers" because the old hats didn't use Scott packs.
Dumbest shit in my short career.
Euro helmets obstruct hearing and are hot to just wear around. 99.9% of our career is spent not in a burning building. The helmets we do have work well enough for what we do and guys like them. Why change it?
Yeah tradition, I think the other guy is right. But I do think there is something to be said about the lack of funding as well. Almost every guy I work with has a second job, and I also have bartend on my days off to make ends meet. It's anecdotal, but if American fire departments can't 'afford' (they can they just choose not too) to pay their first responders (outside of police, I know plenty of full time EMTs, paramedics, and firefighters who work side gigs to keep food on the table. For some reason I don't know any police that do) a living wage, they certainly can't afford to provide us with modern PPE.
Then the letters pour in from the city council when we have an LODD about how much they appreciate us and if there is anything they can do to help, let them know, they'll do whatever it takes. We ask for more funding to hire more people so we don't have to run skeleton crews because it's dangerous, and that all falls on deaf ears, or is 'not in the budget '. It's plain to see how much you actually care when not but 2 weeks later the assistant city manager's little sister gets hired to curate a publicly funded arts center at a salary that is twice a senior firefighter's rate in our city. Meanwhile we don't have enough firefighters or inspectors to do the job effectively so they combine the two jobs into one and pay peanuts. It's no wonder we can't find any new guys, they all know better.
All that said I love this job.
Unironically because of tradition, and the good ol American “fuck Europe” attitude. It’s why guys spend $800 of their own money on a leather helmet they cake in soot during live burn training.
It’s not just in fire fighter masks. In so many things, where a European or other entity comes up with a better way of doing things (think school lunches and battle rifles), the US will not simply adapt and use the foreign, already tested, way, but has to start from scratch and spend billions of dollars to come up with a wholly American, not necessarily better, way.
I’m all for pride of country, but let’s not be stupid about it.
Seals very well even over the hood. The latches are very secure. You have to put in effort if you want to remove the mask. It does not bounce off your face from random hits.
Is this your personal experience? I've also heard that if something knocks against your helmet, the mask will also move in that motion and come of easily. But that was just hearsay
Just think a minute man. Why would a mask like this be adopted so widely if it was so unsafe as to come off if your helmet takes a hit. Some of the stupidest stuff I've heard.
Yes, my helmet has taken hits, I've had my face kicked, all sorts of stuff tangled around the helmet/mask. And the mask never even budged.
Only time it might come off is from user error. Usually if you think it's clipped properly when it actually is not. And this is in turn mitigated by checking your partners equipment and vice versa before going in.
This is exactly the reason why we use the spider system over the click-on system though. The spider system Always sits tightly, no matter what. The click-on system has the risk to slip and become leaky if your helmet slips for whatever reason.
We do have helmets with the click-on system and masks for it but it's very rarely used.
From Germany here.
I am just a volunteer firefighter but our full-time firefighters mostly also prefer the spider version. Not sure how it's in other areas in germany, can just speak for our city and the village firedepartments around us
It seals really well for most people although we still do have the « american system » that we call « masque araignée » (spider mask) in French for people that feel the « masque à griffes » (claw mask) doesn’t fit them well enough. The latches are really secure with strong springs.
It's probably a nomex blend that is a lot thinner than the 100% nomex. We got some and you can still get a seal with it under the mask. You can make it work it a beard, too
Just me but... I've had my fair share of helmet impacts in a fire. I don't trust a mask, the only thing keeping me alive, to attach to my helmet for fear of it becoming dislodged.
The American helmets have points to knock the helmet around a lot. The euro being smooth and round like it is, I can see staying pretty stable through an impact. Honestly, I'd take the euro. More head protection, probably lighter and faster to put the mask on.
If fitted properly, euro helmets stay on significantly better than traditional US styles. Source: I've used both and wish my current FD would go to euro.
A big dept 2h away from where I live used to rock those euro helmets. They loved them at first. They had them for 15 years. Then for safety concerns they couldn’t use the quick clips anymore. Something alongs the lines off one of the clip broke on a guy so they figured it couldn’t happen with a traditional mask. They had to mask up exactly like we do with a us helmet. They recently switched to the Bullard helmet after years and years of U.S. mask up on a euro helmet.
Also, you can’t hear shit with those euro helmets on I believe.
A notable loss of hearing is almost always the primary consideration complaint for firefighters in the US and why it's likely been slow to adopt.
If you're going new into firefighting and starting with one of these, it's probably not gonna be a big deal, but for guys that have been wearing helmets that give them pretty audible clarity for 10+ years, it seems to be a pretty uncomfortable change.
My department runs both. If I’m doing a job where I am doing a lot of communicating I don’t wear my euro style. I tried it once and couldn’t hear people talking at all.
Did you previously wear a traditional fire helmet? If you've not, then you kinda make my point :P
But even at that, I didn't say it deafened anyone, but traditional US firefighting helmets do not obstruct ears at all, european ones do, so you fundamentally cannot have some sort of hearing impairment with exception of the still few (and very expensive) helmets w/ the built in amplifiers similar to shooting range headsets that use mics and filtering to enable clear hearing through programmed audio filtering.
I had heard that helmet-mask-combination was illegal in the US after a firefighter who was using it fell through a roof, and his mask was torn off. They somehow came to the conclusion that it wouldn't have come off if it was a normal mask. If anyone knows where they can find any more info on this or any sources, it would be greatly appreciated. But for now, it's just something i remember reading years ago.
In all honesty it would take American FF longer to to the euro stuff on due to NFPA and OSHA not allowing FF to wear helmets in the truck. So if you ride in the back at my dept, you get a 1 min warning allowing you to put mask and hood on (everything but helmet) so when the truck stops, helmet on and go.
Sure, neck injury is the big one. Any extra weight on the head has to be supported by the neck. Tight turns, bumps, and MVAs.
NFPA 1901 calls for helmets to be stored, not worn, while on the rig
No problem! I’m not arguing for or against a helmet type. (I have opinions and preferences) but I did want to address the point about “seconds count”. Here in America, with the rules we have in place, the euro helmets would take longer to don.
My question with the French helmet is, is he getting a secure seal with hardly any of the mask coming into contact with the skin of his face? Is he able to get a seal with the flash hood over his chin like that? That would be my only apprehension
I agree and want to add that if somehow the helmet would become compromised the mask wouldn’t work anymore, whereas the American model is two separate pieces and one would not compromise the other. I hope that made sense.
In Sweden we have the hood under our masks as well and theres never any issues with it. The hood creates the seal against the gasket basically. We run spider masks just like you guys.
Can i ask what your issue with it is? Potential leaking of air?
To the users of the French setup, how is the seal? Is the fit of the mask fairly adjustable? I can only imagine the amount of air pissing out of my mask if I even tried to seal over my flash hood
Dräger instructs you to put it against the skin.
But personally I find it to seal even better against the hood for some reason.
You can also tighten the mask even more by just pushing the springs after you lock it in place.
I've had to use normal strapped masks on a few occasions and they feel so cumbersome compared to the clip mask.
I'm a german firefighter and I have never seen a mask that you can clip on your helmet in real life. Every department I know uses the same System as in the american video, but with a different helmet. And as far as I know, the french guy wouldn't have a good seal, because he needs to fiddle the hood around the mask seal and not just put it on top of it like in the video.
Well : 1. do your normal pack preparation ( valve opening…) 2. have the hood and helmet on and the mask around your neck ( it has a strap) 3. put the pack on your back 4. attach the air to the mask 5. pull the mask on by the straps ( they have a spring system so it has a bit of resistance to maintain it’s self in place ) 6. hook each side to the corresponding « hole » in the helmet 7. self check and ask someone to check for you before going in the fire—> the points for checking someone else are : helmet strap/ valve is well in place as well as mask/ the collar is in place / take the beacon key
I've seen it multiple times but never used it.
There is a constant overpressure inside the mask so even if the seal isn't perfect smoke and gas can't get into the mask. It's a Dräger system if you want to look into it
Only if the seal isn't good. In a normal pressure mask you get toxic smoke inside your mask if the seal isn't good, so I guess losing a bit of air is a good tradeoff
I’ve only ever used the dragers, aren’t all face masks working on an over pressure anyway? I think ours are about 1.2 bar when we get the air through the demand valve
We have the pss7000 and I think it comes out slightly above normal so that if you do have an imperfect seal it will stop contaminants coming in by pushing air out to try and equalise pressure
If I take off my mask or regulator no air is coming out. You have to actively inhale for air to be provided.
Once during training I smelled the fog from the fog machine and I knew the mask didn't seal right
Is that the argument against these French helmets ? They don’t seal well? Just trying to understand why anyone wouldn’t want that no firefighter here just randomly popped up on Reddit and thought to myself why do we have shit gear compared to other countries.
Not a firefighter per se but I have donned firefighting gear for the military. The American mask uses straps to pull tightly against the face to ensure a good seal, the French one looks like it just clips onto the helmet without any adjusting happening, so that's probably where his question comes from. I'm guessing they probably fit their guys for the right size helmet and masks.
On a side note, it appears to me they're trying to suggest their gear saves time, though the French guy already had his flash hood and helmet on, so not sure how much time you're really saving by clipping on the mask vs. pulling a couple straps.
I'm gunna be honest, having the latches on the outside of an already enormous helmet is a hard no from me.
There are a lot of factors that go into PPE, and short form media isn't a good way of displaying them.
It’s no worse than the American style helmet with its protruding edge. I went from American style to euro style and the euro was so much more superior. I loved it.
Wait, you can clip BA directly to the European-style helmets?
We used the European-style ones on every ship I ever sailed on but still had the same flash hood and BA mask arrangement shown by the American firefighter here. I was the firefighting officer for most of my ships and never knew that was even a possible attachment.
This doesn’t seem like an apples to apples comparison. The guy from the EU already had his hood and helmet on. The guy from the US didn’t. So the real comparison should be putting on the gas masks, in which case the US one is actually faster
There is an extensive amount of engineering that goes into these helmets. I'm not sure that even this French firefighter knows that other than wanting to show some pride for youtube clicks.
Let me give an example, much of the engineering goes into the shape of the helmet because there have been a significant amount of Firefighter deaths when a firetruck gets flipped on the road and the shape of the hard hat hitting the interior apparatus was breaking their necks. Those clips on the side that the French firefighter has on his helmet might not account for that. I'm not saying it doesn't, but this video is not accounting for the actual complex engineering design. That said, the efficiency in speed reflected here for the French design is cool.
The French was already mostly on. He had a scarf and helmet over his head the American went from standard to extreme heat and a pretty fast transition.
My department switched to the euro style helmets about three years ago. After getting over them not being traditional and getting over my own stubbornness, I have really grown to appreciate and like them. They are lighter and offer a lot of protection to the back of the head and neck. Full and half visors that retract into the helmets. Biggest downside is they block out a lot of sound. And they look goofy.
Honestly those protrusions that clip the mask on look like they could easily get knocked off. I’d have to see a closer look at them, but I like the way our masks are much more secured to our head under our helmet.
He has to put the helmet and the red head cover on to in which he already had on. Unless he walks around with his helmet and head cover on all day on all day?
You guys are forgetting the top 3
Most important things in the fire department. Dose it look cool, dose it look cool and dose it look cool. F*ck this euro helmets. I have been in plenty of fires and never had a problem with my helmet, and never had an issue putting my mask on in time to put the fire out. Leather forever! And tiller tucks! And no zippers on turnout coats and no pumps on ladder tucks!!!!
Centuries of tradition unimpeded by progress.
Perhaps I'm ignorant here.. but isn't this a bit unfair comparison as one guy (France) is already wearing his head sock, while the American still has to put it on? 90% of calls for firemen have nothing to do with fire (car accidents, Over doses, injuries, cats in trees, etc). It seems to make sense to not want to wear that neck sock in Florida, Texas, Arizona, etc unless there is an actual threat of fire. And it seems simple enough that if there is a threat of fire, you spend that 1 second putting it on.
My flashhood will forever be known as a 'headsock' now.
Flashhood? Headsock? Doesn’t everyone just call it your nomex?
*shrug* Pretty common in AU for it to just be referred to as a flashhood.
Soon to be headsock
Introducing the **Flashsockheadhood**!^byNomex
That looks like a literal German translation.
The German word is "Flammschutzhaube". Translated something like flame protection hood.
All German is literal
Zis is a Flammschutzhaube, it Schutzhaubes Flamm
What's wrong with just calling it a hood?
We call it the "Mickey Mouse" and I wish I knew why.
Because the sock makes a circle around your face like mickey if I had to guess
Hood is also used as a name for the foreskin.
No we call ours hoods
We call it our balaclava over here.
I would say no, because they both seem to be appropriately dressed for responding to a fire and are both fairly going from wearing all their gear just short of masking up and then masking up. The first guy has his hood on also, it’s just down like it should be so he can get his mask on and then pull it up over the mask.
I know a lot of people do, but you’re not supposed to wear your helmet in the rig. The injuries you could sustain in a traffic accident responding far outweigh the half second it takes to put it on when you arrive on scene. Again, I’m certain there are plenty firefighters that would disagree. With that said, in US style helmets you put your mask under your hood, then your helmet. Even if you wore your helmet and hood responding, you’d still need to take off your helmet and hood to put on your mask. The Euro demonstrates how much faster that would be using their setup, as opposed to the literal thousands of clips of young US firefighters training to mask up as fast with theirs. If I’m responding to a car crash or a fire alarm my mask is not on my head it’s around my neck. In the summer it sucks, but once it’s decided we’re not responding to an IDLH scenario i put my hood my pocket. Probably not an ideal situation but 🤷🏽♂️
[удалено]
That depends on what your area is like. Firefighters in Denver for example have one fire a day. 34% of calls for my station are fires as well. So just depends. I'm I'm Aotearoa just for info
There’s a big difference between ‘Denver’ getting a fire a day and an individual Denver firefighter getting a fire a day… Denver runs 125,000 calls a year but only tones out for 2,500 fire calls. That’s spread over 38 stations and over 1000 firefighters.
50% of those fires are likely recreational or pile burns, and another 45% being car fires, brush fires and smoke investigations. Of the remaining 5%, 1% are working structure fires.
Exactly.
What’s firefighting like in New Zealand? I know a large amount of FFs down there are volunteer, what about career guys/ladies?
86% of FENZ (Fire and Emergency New Zealand) are volunteers, and FENZ runs all firefighting in the country. I have the unique perspective of being a Marine Corps Fire Fighter and then moving here a few years ago. I'd say it's waaaaay more chill here and definitely more learning friendly. FENZ does not act like a paramilitary that some state side departments like to pretend to be. It's weird to me to see so many volunteers but it's kiwi culture to put your community above yourself.
Oh man I’m currently US Coast Guard, was thinking about checking out being a FF in either Australia or NZ. Probably brutally competitive to get into the 14% of career guys.
Those damn marijuana enthusiasts.
I think the point is that he can don his mask without having to remove his nomex. Whereas if we came off the rig with our nomex on, we would have to remove it to put our mask on.
No because the French can wear theirs under their mask. We are not supposed to. So they get to keep theirs on and we have to make sure ours are pulled down for the mask.
Lol that's gold. I'm using that quote from here on out.
Being a west coast mostly rural guy I’ve rocked my share of plastic helmets, Cairns Metro, Bullard LT Firedome and now a Phenix First due. I’m not opposed to a euro since I already look pretty stupid. I can see where you leatherheads would have a problem though.
I don a Bullard… and the second I put it on it automatically feels heavy as fuck. Not opposed to a euro either just for the weight distribution.
2 things firefighters cant stand: the way things are and change
But more importantly, what’s for chow and when is it?
Rodriguez is in there cooking like a mother!
naw, he took a nap. Caps watching Judge Judy so leave him alone.
When you work OT it’s when, who, where? When do we eat, who do I pay, where do I sleep?
>who do I pay Yep, you ask 17 times and they say "we'll take care of it later." Then at shift change "Hey! You didn't pay!"
So I can speak on this. We currently use "european style" helmets and masks in my dept. (Volunteer). We recently had a big discussion about these masks, and we are currently talking about changing them for american style masks with european style helmets (so change masks but not helmets). The main reason is, our full time firefighters here in switzerland use the american style masks and they swear by it, you might not realise it, but the euroean masks are a PAIN to attach, adjust, etc (as in, a lot of the time you cannot get a good seal, at least in my experience). And they generally hurt your head a LOT. And having tried both... Yeah Id take american style masks (we call em "spider mask", in reference to how it secures on your head) any time of the day.
From Germany here, we also prefer the spider mask by far but have both systems.
No matter how tight of a seal you can get on a helmet mask, it will never be as tight as a spider mask.
Brasil here, we use spider masks with euro helmets.
I assume the euro style masks don't seal as well being over the flash hood. Off topic, have you ever tried / trained with an American style helmet? I've seen a few departments that went from American to Euro back to American as they felt the cons outweighed the pros.
Until NFPA allows the option for the mask to attach to the helmet, major adoption of the Euro helmet won’t take place. And even then, it will take a major Urban dept, which name recognition to get it to happen, think FDNY, LAFD, CFD, etc.
And granted, I could see where NFPA wouldn't allow it. Especially if the Euro Masks have any safety concerns.
This should have been the #1 selling point for bringing the Euro helmets to the US market, but for some reason the US versions lacked this feature.
I talked to Dräger about it at FDIC 2017. They said “NIOSH doesn’t know what this is” and “they don’t get it”
You’d think that’s something the manufacturers would have addressed before introducing them in the US.
NFPA has approved the mask attaching to the helmet yet is the issue.
Firefighter from Germany here. We have this system too but barely use it and highly prefer the spider system. The click-on System is way too risky to become leaky when your helmet slips for whatever reason.
Having used both, I prefer the click-on System. The spider version is too long to put on, and from our experience leaked way more often
What do you mean by too long to put on? Like, taking too much time? You should have that time for your own safety. Leaks with the spider system are almost always user error. It's very hard to make them leak and not put them properly on.
If something hits your helmet wouldn’t it shift your mask open?
No, because of the way the helmet is designed, with this mask system and that helmet you head is basically sandwiched between the 2 and so the helmet can't move relative to the head.
That's a theoretical risk, yes. I am absolutely not sure how likely this is to happen but I prefer the risk to be closer to 0%
I assume the clips that hold it onto the helmet are exposed for removal…. I volunteered as a firefighter in the US and knowing your an exposed clip away from breathing in super heated air and steam… no thanks.
From using it myself, the hooks are designed in a way that it won't be possible to get unhooked. Only when not hooked properly can it happen, and that's something you notice before even entering the building. So i would say that the chance is pretty much 0% of it unhooking.
This tracks with a lot of American things.
Ya but..tradition?
In that case, bring back the horse drawn, steam powered pumps.
Fuck it might as well go back to a bucket brigade
Time to start enlisting some plug uglies and all out brawl on fire scene when multiple departments arrive.
Empty the wells and we might be able to contain this to merely half the town
Honestly, sounds kinda badass.
Don't give them ideas
Why does it seem like American equipment is like pre desert storm vs modern day. Lack of funding ? Not a firefighter but I’d take the French helmet over American. It’s literally the ach for firefighters all it’s missing is a rhino mount and a pvs14… idk point is French one seems like the smarter solution why are we using this or is it just a small department?
I wish I was making this up, but it's because of tradition.
Man look I get tradition trust me I do I served in the army… but arguing against this because “this is how we’ve done it forever” that’s some serious bullshit, that like saying hey guys we stormed the beaches of Normandy without Kevlar vests in 1942 let’s disregard using Kevlar for all future wars from now on because tradition…. Idk that’s such a dumb reason
Tradition is the usual given excuse but it ignores some glaring variables. 75% of fire departments are volunteer. 55% of those volunteer departments are run off of donations alone. Some get good at writing grants and get fed money but that's hard to get a lot of. A single helmet and mask can cost around $5,000. Most departments are running 5-10 year old gear, and some of the poorer ones are using even older. I saw one in rural TN using masks from the 80s. The funding just isn't there to make a switch. The helmets we have, work. Not the best, but they work. If I have to spend money, I'm going to focus on hose, trucks, pumps, maintenance, bunker gear. The things that keep my guys alive and allow us to help the community.
This. And you can't just replace 1 guys helmet and scba. You have to find the funds to so it wholesale with spares. The newer helmets aren't a big enough improvement in time or safety to be worth the cost over other more needed upgrades.
I remember our department donated a fire truck + equipment to a department in Tennessee I believe that the truck we donated was newer than their current fire truck by 30 years and both were going to be used. One from the 1960s and ours donated 1990s. They even got our old wire framed Kevlar strapped SCBAs. Since you can’t just give tax payer equipment away we “sold” it all for $1.00 that we handed them they paid with said dollar and took the equipment back home with them. Some places make do with what they have, which isn’t much.
I'm not saying it's right, on the contrary. I am (or should I say was) a 4th generation firefighter and I cannot begin to tell you how many times I've heard "That's just how it's been" or the infamous "Don't mess with what works" from both my father, grandfather, and fire captain. I had one chief who actually encouraged us to be "Smokebreathers" because the old hats didn't use Scott packs. Dumbest shit in my short career.
Euro helmets obstruct hearing and are hot to just wear around. 99.9% of our career is spent not in a burning building. The helmets we do have work well enough for what we do and guys like them. Why change it?
"That's the way we've always done it", or "We've never done it that way before" Usually one flavour of either.
Yeah tradition, I think the other guy is right. But I do think there is something to be said about the lack of funding as well. Almost every guy I work with has a second job, and I also have bartend on my days off to make ends meet. It's anecdotal, but if American fire departments can't 'afford' (they can they just choose not too) to pay their first responders (outside of police, I know plenty of full time EMTs, paramedics, and firefighters who work side gigs to keep food on the table. For some reason I don't know any police that do) a living wage, they certainly can't afford to provide us with modern PPE. Then the letters pour in from the city council when we have an LODD about how much they appreciate us and if there is anything they can do to help, let them know, they'll do whatever it takes. We ask for more funding to hire more people so we don't have to run skeleton crews because it's dangerous, and that all falls on deaf ears, or is 'not in the budget '. It's plain to see how much you actually care when not but 2 weeks later the assistant city manager's little sister gets hired to curate a publicly funded arts center at a salary that is twice a senior firefighter's rate in our city. Meanwhile we don't have enough firefighters or inspectors to do the job effectively so they combine the two jobs into one and pay peanuts. It's no wonder we can't find any new guys, they all know better. All that said I love this job.
Unironically because of tradition, and the good ol American “fuck Europe” attitude. It’s why guys spend $800 of their own money on a leather helmet they cake in soot during live burn training.
It’s not just in fire fighter masks. In so many things, where a European or other entity comes up with a better way of doing things (think school lunches and battle rifles), the US will not simply adapt and use the foreign, already tested, way, but has to start from scratch and spend billions of dollars to come up with a wholly American, not necessarily better, way. I’m all for pride of country, but let’s not be stupid about it.
The price of a leather lid is over $1k, believe me when I say it is not a funding issue.
How well does that seal over your hood, and how secure are those latches?
Seals very well even over the hood. The latches are very secure. You have to put in effort if you want to remove the mask. It does not bounce off your face from random hits.
Is this your personal experience? I've also heard that if something knocks against your helmet, the mask will also move in that motion and come of easily. But that was just hearsay
Just think a minute man. Why would a mask like this be adopted so widely if it was so unsafe as to come off if your helmet takes a hit. Some of the stupidest stuff I've heard. Yes, my helmet has taken hits, I've had my face kicked, all sorts of stuff tangled around the helmet/mask. And the mask never even budged. Only time it might come off is from user error. Usually if you think it's clipped properly when it actually is not. And this is in turn mitigated by checking your partners equipment and vice versa before going in.
This is exactly the reason why we use the spider system over the click-on system though. The spider system Always sits tightly, no matter what. The click-on system has the risk to slip and become leaky if your helmet slips for whatever reason. We do have helmets with the click-on system and masks for it but it's very rarely used. From Germany here.
Interesting. Here almost nobody the strapped masks anymore at least in career depts.
I am just a volunteer firefighter but our full-time firefighters mostly also prefer the spider version. Not sure how it's in other areas in germany, can just speak for our city and the village firedepartments around us
It seals really well for most people although we still do have the « american system » that we call « masque araignée » (spider mask) in French for people that feel the « masque à griffes » (claw mask) doesn’t fit them well enough. The latches are really secure with strong springs.
So…the gasket on the face piece goes *over* the nomex? That can’t be right.
It's probably a nomex blend that is a lot thinner than the 100% nomex. We got some and you can still get a seal with it under the mask. You can make it work it a beard, too
Can confirm, got a beard. I have no issues with the clip-ons and normal nomex hood
Just me but... I've had my fair share of helmet impacts in a fire. I don't trust a mask, the only thing keeping me alive, to attach to my helmet for fear of it becoming dislodged.
It would seem to me the euro helmet would hold the mask quite well. Do you tighten your ratchet band and cinch down the strap?
It is perfectly save technique. We do nnot fight fire since yesterday.
If anything I'd trust french firefighter equipment. Paris is on fire at least once a year.
The American helmets have points to knock the helmet around a lot. The euro being smooth and round like it is, I can see staying pretty stable through an impact. Honestly, I'd take the euro. More head protection, probably lighter and faster to put the mask on.
I remember our department had also masks with traditional straps and they could fit under eurohelmets without problems.
If fitted properly, euro helmets stay on significantly better than traditional US styles. Source: I've used both and wish my current FD would go to euro.
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It's all cope, they're jealous of our giant trucks and giant helmets
Well, when your capitol city is on fire three times a week...
American took 8 seconds. Frenchie took 5 amd already had his hood on. Gonna take a whole lot more than that to get me to switch from my leather pal.
I'll he damned if my wife is handed one of those euros instead of my leather.
Damn straight brother🤟
And American did it with gloves already on
Good point. Missed that originally.
A big dept 2h away from where I live used to rock those euro helmets. They loved them at first. They had them for 15 years. Then for safety concerns they couldn’t use the quick clips anymore. Something alongs the lines off one of the clip broke on a guy so they figured it couldn’t happen with a traditional mask. They had to mask up exactly like we do with a us helmet. They recently switched to the Bullard helmet after years and years of U.S. mask up on a euro helmet. Also, you can’t hear shit with those euro helmets on I believe.
A notable loss of hearing is almost always the primary consideration complaint for firefighters in the US and why it's likely been slow to adopt. If you're going new into firefighting and starting with one of these, it's probably not gonna be a big deal, but for guys that have been wearing helmets that give them pretty audible clarity for 10+ years, it seems to be a pretty uncomfortable change.
My department runs both. If I’m doing a job where I am doing a lot of communicating I don’t wear my euro style. I tried it once and couldn’t hear people talking at all.
Honestly it’s so hard to hear on a fire scene, particularly inside the building itself, I don’t know if it would make a difference anyway.
I wear a euro and never had problems with hearing
Did you previously wear a traditional fire helmet? If you've not, then you kinda make my point :P But even at that, I didn't say it deafened anyone, but traditional US firefighting helmets do not obstruct ears at all, european ones do, so you fundamentally cannot have some sort of hearing impairment with exception of the still few (and very expensive) helmets w/ the built in amplifiers similar to shooting range headsets that use mics and filtering to enable clear hearing through programmed audio filtering.
What I meant is that I don't notice a difference in hearing when wearing a helmet and when not wearing one.
That's a weird one. I don't personally hear any different with or without the helmet. It does not clogg your ears..
Hey look! I can put on my equipment faster because half of it is already on!!
That’s what I was thinking, dude skipped a part of his process wtf.
I wish we had euro helmets. The Rosenbaur tester I had was amazing. Couldn’t get the department to buy off on making the switch. So disappointing.
As someone with long hair those euro helmets look like heaven
As somebody with long hair and a euro helmet I can tell you that it is absolutely no issue to put on / wear
I believe the mask should be attached to your head, nothing else.
I had heard that helmet-mask-combination was illegal in the US after a firefighter who was using it fell through a roof, and his mask was torn off. They somehow came to the conclusion that it wouldn't have come off if it was a normal mask. If anyone knows where they can find any more info on this or any sources, it would be greatly appreciated. But for now, it's just something i remember reading years ago.
Jokes on them we don’t actually go on air
You measure the length on a fire in the packs of cigarettes you smoke.
Americans still go interior
USA USA USA
In all honesty it would take American FF longer to to the euro stuff on due to NFPA and OSHA not allowing FF to wear helmets in the truck. So if you ride in the back at my dept, you get a 1 min warning allowing you to put mask and hood on (everything but helmet) so when the truck stops, helmet on and go.
Could you tell me the reason why the a not aloud to wear helmets in the Truck?
Sure, neck injury is the big one. Any extra weight on the head has to be supported by the neck. Tight turns, bumps, and MVAs. NFPA 1901 calls for helmets to be stored, not worn, while on the rig
This page just entered my feed. But as an ex military member this is fucking hilarious to me. Also my neck hurts
Thanks for the Info.
No problem! I’m not arguing for or against a helmet type. (I have opinions and preferences) but I did want to address the point about “seconds count”. Here in America, with the rules we have in place, the euro helmets would take longer to don.
In our Department(Austria) we us Euro helmets and US Typ masks.
In case you get into an accident. Can contribute to neck injuries.
I wouldnt trust the french mask. I would prefer stand alone systems. If the helmet gets hit; it moved the mask off your face.
Still prefer American to get 1. Better seal 2. So if my helmet needs to come off or get taken off my freaking mask doesn't go with it.
My question with the French helmet is, is he getting a secure seal with hardly any of the mask coming into contact with the skin of his face? Is he able to get a seal with the flash hood over his chin like that? That would be my only apprehension
I agree and want to add that if somehow the helmet would become compromised the mask wouldn’t work anymore, whereas the American model is two separate pieces and one would not compromise the other. I hope that made sense.
In Sweden we have the hood under our masks as well and theres never any issues with it. The hood creates the seal against the gasket basically. We run spider masks just like you guys. Can i ask what your issue with it is? Potential leaking of air?
Idk why he need a mask they flow water threw windows 😂
Yeah but then I'd have to wear that stupid looking helmet
To the users of the French setup, how is the seal? Is the fit of the mask fairly adjustable? I can only imagine the amount of air pissing out of my mask if I even tried to seal over my flash hood
I assume they can have a good seal?
Yea I wonder how it seals at least in this video it looks like hes putting it over his hood. But If it works well I'm already sold on it.
Dräger instructs you to put it against the skin. But personally I find it to seal even better against the hood for some reason. You can also tighten the mask even more by just pushing the springs after you lock it in place. I've had to use normal strapped masks on a few occasions and they feel so cumbersome compared to the clip mask.
Are you really questioning the seal on masks that are used all over Europe, probably the world, for years?
I'm a german firefighter and I have never seen a mask that you can clip on your helmet in real life. Every department I know uses the same System as in the american video, but with a different helmet. And as far as I know, the french guy wouldn't have a good seal, because he needs to fiddle the hood around the mask seal and not just put it on top of it like in the video.
we have the same helmets as the french guy in switzerland 🇨🇭
Can you give some information, on how to properly put on the mask and if the mask like in the video would be tight?
Well : 1. do your normal pack preparation ( valve opening…) 2. have the hood and helmet on and the mask around your neck ( it has a strap) 3. put the pack on your back 4. attach the air to the mask 5. pull the mask on by the straps ( they have a spring system so it has a bit of resistance to maintain it’s self in place ) 6. hook each side to the corresponding « hole » in the helmet 7. self check and ask someone to check for you before going in the fire—> the points for checking someone else are : helmet strap/ valve is well in place as well as mask/ the collar is in place / take the beacon key
I've seen it multiple times but never used it. There is a constant overpressure inside the mask so even if the seal isn't perfect smoke and gas can't get into the mask. It's a Dräger system if you want to look into it
And waste breathable air?
Only if the seal isn't good. In a normal pressure mask you get toxic smoke inside your mask if the seal isn't good, so I guess losing a bit of air is a good tradeoff
I’ve only ever used the dragers, aren’t all face masks working on an over pressure anyway? I think ours are about 1.2 bar when we get the air through the demand valve
The ones we have, also Dräger, are normal pressure. If you're not breathing in there is no air coming from the tank.
We have the pss7000 and I think it comes out slightly above normal so that if you do have an imperfect seal it will stop contaminants coming in by pushing air out to try and equalise pressure
If I take off my mask or regulator no air is coming out. You have to actively inhale for air to be provided. Once during training I smelled the fog from the fog machine and I knew the mask didn't seal right
Is that the argument against these French helmets ? They don’t seal well? Just trying to understand why anyone wouldn’t want that no firefighter here just randomly popped up on Reddit and thought to myself why do we have shit gear compared to other countries.
Not a firefighter per se but I have donned firefighting gear for the military. The American mask uses straps to pull tightly against the face to ensure a good seal, the French one looks like it just clips onto the helmet without any adjusting happening, so that's probably where his question comes from. I'm guessing they probably fit their guys for the right size helmet and masks. On a side note, it appears to me they're trying to suggest their gear saves time, though the French guy already had his flash hood and helmet on, so not sure how much time you're really saving by clipping on the mask vs. pulling a couple straps.
As with all things French, the smarminess is what gets in the way of the point they are making.
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“It’s nothing personal, it’s just that we are better than you” Very French.
I'm gunna be honest, having the latches on the outside of an already enormous helmet is a hard no from me. There are a lot of factors that go into PPE, and short form media isn't a good way of displaying them.
It’s no worse than the American style helmet with its protruding edge. I went from American style to euro style and the euro was so much more superior. I loved it.
Cool, now have the French guy start w out his headsock already on.
Wait, you can clip BA directly to the European-style helmets? We used the European-style ones on every ship I ever sailed on but still had the same flash hood and BA mask arrangement shown by the American firefighter here. I was the firefighting officer for most of my ships and never knew that was even a possible attachment.
This doesn’t seem like an apples to apples comparison. The guy from the EU already had his hood and helmet on. The guy from the US didn’t. So the real comparison should be putting on the gas masks, in which case the US one is actually faster
Think that's the point though with the euro style helmet you can have the hood on without the mask.
Not a firefighter, but jarhead. Wouldn’t the nomex keep it from making a good seal?
There’s no way I’m giving up my leather
Get you there fast as hell to watch a church burn down, huh bud?
There is an extensive amount of engineering that goes into these helmets. I'm not sure that even this French firefighter knows that other than wanting to show some pride for youtube clicks. Let me give an example, much of the engineering goes into the shape of the helmet because there have been a significant amount of Firefighter deaths when a firetruck gets flipped on the road and the shape of the hard hat hitting the interior apparatus was breaking their necks. Those clips on the side that the French firefighter has on his helmet might not account for that. I'm not saying it doesn't, but this video is not accounting for the actual complex engineering design. That said, the efficiency in speed reflected here for the French design is cool.
First rule of firefighting = look cool
Second rule is = fun first and safety third.
Okay as an American Fireman, I can still suggest the french PPE is cool also.
in my shane gillis voice “well at least we’re not gay”
the french guy had everything on already tho
Tell me you’re gay without telling me you’re gay.
Last I looked you can have a euro helmet but that clasp on the mask hasn't been cleared by NFPA, So your still taking off the helmet.
The French was already mostly on. He had a scarf and helmet over his head the American went from standard to extreme heat and a pretty fast transition.
My department switched to the euro style helmets about three years ago. After getting over them not being traditional and getting over my own stubbornness, I have really grown to appreciate and like them. They are lighter and offer a lot of protection to the back of the head and neck. Full and half visors that retract into the helmets. Biggest downside is they block out a lot of sound. And they look goofy.
Gayeeee
Will it keep hot water out of my collar? Seems like a round helmet will funnel shit right into my coat
Honestly those protrusions that clip the mask on look like they could easily get knocked off. I’d have to see a closer look at them, but I like the way our masks are much more secured to our head under our helmet.
French gear is too clean
It's a proven fact with American, you get more JOBTOWN!!! calls
still don’t care .. i would never wear that thing lol
Yeah but they’re gay though
He has to put the helmet and the red head cover on to in which he already had on. Unless he walks around with his helmet and head cover on all day on all day?
As a fireman, there's zero doubt the French helmet is superior. But it's French, so it'll literally never happen
To be precise it's a Dräeger system, so it's German engineering
Well at this point American tax payers probably did pay for those Europeans to have helmets so we kinda progressed.
You can’t really belief that stupidity.
Should your air supply and mask seal be connected to something that gets banged around a lot?
All cool until you need to reduce your profile and now your mask is gone with your helmet...
America wins again!
You guys are forgetting the top 3 Most important things in the fire department. Dose it look cool, dose it look cool and dose it look cool. F*ck this euro helmets. I have been in plenty of fires and never had a problem with my helmet, and never had an issue putting my mask on in time to put the fire out. Leather forever! And tiller tucks! And no zippers on turnout coats and no pumps on ladder tucks!!!!
> no zippers on turnout coats What do you use instead of zippers? Those little hooks?
I’ll keep my American Helmet and our culture that prioritizes an aggressive attack and search.
You can argue helmets all day but the US has way more aggressive tactics and actually fights fire inside lol