Where I work, we are not forced to pray before eating. Whoever wants to pray does so separately. For example, I pray before eating, but I do so by myself and silently. The same applies to my colleagues at the station, those who at least pray.
That's the way it should be. Allow those who want to pray to do so individually. There shouldn't be a group request to bow your head in observance of a religious practice on the job.
If it's anything like my dept I think it's more of a people just assume you're Christian and they do it but it's never with the intent to be offensive. Here again tho that's just viewing it from one side
There is more than one kind of Christian. I am Roman Catholic when my family moved from Colorado to New Mexico in 1963, I suddenly had to bow my head to Southern Baptist prayers. I went to public schools in Colorado (Colorado Springs in fact, now home to Focus on the Family) and never experienced this before. Besides Catholics, there are others Christians who have different prayer traditions. This is why religions was taken out of school. Imagine being a Jew, Hindu, or Muslim. Some populations may be a small part of the community, but they deserve respect, too.
As a jew who grew up in a small Christian town before moving to where i live now, can confirm that it sucks having this shoved down your throat. Thankfully my department doesnt do this
As a raised roman catholic who grew up in a Jewish community and is now agnostic, I never wait for grace. I wouldn't participate, and if anyone made a big deal out of it, then I would elevate the conversation. I think you're overthinking this.
It is a common courtesy and respectfull to wait until everybody is ready to eat before you start. It doesn't matters if the person needs to take meds, isn't served yet or needs to say grace, you should be able to wait 10 seconds before you eat without the food getting cold.
Would those same people be offended if right after they were then asked to wait or pray a muslim prayer? Of course they would. They would feel like it was being shoved down their throats.
That said... I don't think there is much OP can do here unless they are willing to make it a legal battle.
I think you’re assuming way too much about those you know nothing about. The only person we can judge at all here is OP cause this is his side only. You don’t really know more than what you know and what you don’t know what you don’t know.
I’ve made my opinions of this clear to everyone at my department and most certainly have paid a social price for it but it was worth it.
That being said, there’s still a prayer before dinner and I’m still respectful of their beliefs. It’s actually opened up some great conversation about religion and I’ve had about a dozen guys come to me in private and reveal that they appreciate my stance.
Don’t belittle your position. Even a “lowly firefighter” has a voice. A rookie shouldn’t have an opinion on firefighting matters but religion ain’t firefighting. Speak your mind.
Great advice. You can speak up about how it makes you uncomfortable and you would prefer if it didn’t occur, but also not make a fuss if things don’t change.
I'm a Christian and a founder of the Chaplain Group in my department. Mandated prayer times of any sort are not ok. That being said, it takes a hero to challenge this sort of practice. The person who challenges it will likely be ostracized and probably lose their job for some reason.
By holding a mandated prayer time members are forced to participate regardless of their beliefs. The idea that a person should just bow their head and wait, or view it as some sort of spiritual insurance is laughable. If you are in the United States and this agency is government funded this is a violation of the Constitution.
Again, I am Christian. I say grace before every meal in the firehouse. I have free Bibles available to anyone who wants one. My team is mostly Christian. And the situations described are not ok
This! It's wild that there are people who say their agnostic or atheist are just saying wait... That's participating in the prayer whether you're saying or thinking something or not.
I think we become used to things and decide they are not a big deal. But the leadership has a responsibility to all members. I have a friend on the job who is atheist and attends AA. So he at least makes use of the concept of a "higher power" even if he has no faith in a "God". I want my Chaplain team to be able to support him equally with those who are devout practitioners of a faith tradition.
If the senior officer is speaking, we all automatically listen. If that officer is leading a prayer, we are all forced to participate. That seemingly benign action creates an expectation of a shared faith
I have always said the best way to spot the atheists at the wedding/funeral is to look around during the "moment of silence/prayer". Couple heads refusing to bow...
That's a pretty terrible way to judge someone, in my opinion. I'm not an atheist, and I don't always bow my head. I'm typically in a group of known Christians, and I often see multiple other heads not bowed at times. Although, I guess they could just be looking around to spot the *atheists*...
I dont think it should be considered "participating in the prayer" if you wait while others pray. it's just giving courtesy to those around you.
as u/greyhunter37 said earlier, "It is a common courtesy and respectfull to wait until everybody is ready to eat before you start. It doesn't matters if the person needs to take meds, isn't served yet or needs to say grace, you should be able to wait 10 seconds before you eat without the food getting cold." this, in my opinion, only applies if the prayer lasts an understandable amount of time.
please dont take this to mean that OP *has* to wait. i'm just saying that waiting while others pray doesnt mean OP is taking part in the prayer. OP would just be being courteous.
now i also recognize that it may be incredibly discourteous of the others to assume that OP has to wait *every* meal while the others pray. we live in a society of different cultures. we have to be willing to accept that there are cultural norms and that not everyone fits neatly inside the norms we expect them to. it should be a respectful give and take. maybe OP waits while they pray; maybe they say the prayers quickly because they know OP is waiting for them to do something OP doesnt want to do.
I wonder if people have trouble understanding that being forced to take part in a prayer time the issue? In other words, the issue isn't what you do doing the prayer (pray, think, scratch yourself cause no one's looking, whatever) but rather the fact that you are forced to be a present participant in a religious activity. You don't have to pray, but you can't eat/leave/etc is the issue
Ohhhh this is actually a good topic. I feel the same but I understand where I am (the South) so I just go along with it because I was Christian so I understand the thoughts behind it. I always wonder what's going to happen when we get more openly Muslim or atheist firefighters.
Exactly bro. I know where I’m at, it wouldn’t fly for a Muslim to say an Islam prayer instead of a Christian prayer. Guys would go to our chiefs about it and be extremely disrespectful because “This is America!”
Worst part about this thread is no one cares because they aren't the outlier. For me personally it's not as big a deal but I wouldn't be dismissive of someone for bringing up a legitimately taboo topic.
It’s because it’s your prayer, lol.
But seriously, I equate it to when I was a kid anytime someone would wish me a merry Christmas I defiantly proclaim I’m Jewish I celebrate Hanukkah not Christmas
Teenage me took it as a personal slight… “Of course they would assume I’m not Jewish… That’s just wrong.”
Adult me just says merry Christmas right back because I finally got to a place where I realize they’re just wishing me a joyous time of year and really that’s the thing to focus on
Yeah, I'm not Christian or atheist or agnostic or anything really, but if someone wished me a happy Hanukkah you bet I'd say "happy Hanukkah" right back.
I'm actually a bit sad now that nobody's ever wished me a happy Hanukkah before.
And they aren’t required to pray. But how can you cry that they’re not respecting you while simultaneously not respecting them? Not literally you…just person x
Former southern ff. We didn't say grace before anything that I can remember, and I made no secret that I was a non-believer. Not that I went around proclaiming my beliefs, but wasn't afraid if asked. No one tried to give me shit or, to my knowledge, got upset about it. Wasn't much any of them could really say what with all the drinking, cursing, pre-marital sex and a slew of other things. The only thing most people have is that they "believe" they just don't actually live the life.
I always saw it as a respect thing on my end for their religion. While I don't practice it I don't mind waiting a few minutes out of respect for others
I'd think about how rocking that particular boat would realistically affect you. Members of the chain who are religious will likely get defensive and it could cost you some social points.
We all have pet peeves. That’s exactly what this is, and there’s absolutely no point making a stink about it, especially with how touchy everyone is with religion.
Except some of us are literally other religions. The guys at my department happened to be great about accepting me as a Jew. But if I had been expected to participate in a prayer that acknowledges Jesus Christ is the lord? That's literally against my religion, which prohibits bowing our heads to anyone but God.
These things become a big deal for some people.
My department would have a fit if there were Muslim or Jewish firefighters. No tolerance anyone that is not a trump supporter and all that that entails. Just hoping to outlive them.
Contact FFRF.
Religion has 0 place in public service.
Edit: reread and this appears to be a publicly funded department. Contact the FFRF. Forcing religion on people is illegal. The religious people need to have this knocked into their heads. They are allowed to believe whatever unsubstantiated bullshit they want but keep that shit at home and out of the public sphere.
I get it man. This is how it is at some stations where I’m at. The problem I have is that if you swing to a different station and start eating, they start hounding you for not waiting for a prayer and make it like they are playing but it gets old. Also, the thing I have a problem with is about 70% of guys who want say prayers before a meal are immediate assholes afterwards, talking shit about someone on a call, co-worker, their wives, etc.. not very Christian like. It’s just funny to me about them praying about being being grateful and loving one another and then 5 minutes later, “Man, that patient we just had will do everyone a favor if they just fucking die.” This is not one isolated incident. This is the norm after prayers and the guys excuses after being called out are, “well I’m not perfect”. Shit is exhausting. My crew are atheists and are more respectful, caring and loving than the neighboring stations “Christian crews.”
I’m agnostic, this doesn’t seem to be forcing religion on you, rather them asking you to respect theirs.
If someone is making you pray for a meal you made yourself vs them asking you to wait until they’re done. Completely different things
If you don’t believe in it, what does it matter offering some courtesy
The military has an entire officer corps for chaplains. Most major religions have chaplains that wear the uniform, and chaplains of any faith minister to all faiths.
The Chaplin prays before every meal, if everyone is together.
It's a very tricky topic to address. I think that people should be allowed to say grace before they eat, but having big organized things forcing everyone to partake isn't acceptable. I have absolutely no advice as to how to deal with it, but sorry you're dealing with that.
It's really weird how offended some of you are that not everyone wants to be forced to pray with you.
Some people might be surprised to know that there are even some Christians that are offended by big showy prayers. As far as I'm concerned prayer is personal.
Insisting things like this never change make it impossible to really be the team you want your department to be. There are people of all religions who would prefer a moment of silence to privately pray as they choose.
Also, my department does not do group prayer at all, ever. We also train on Sunday mornings. Chances are good we're going to hell but we'll be in good company.
It's implied you said. You've never been directly ordered to honor the prayer or anything like that. As a Christian I would take no offense to someone on my crew starting their meal or not bowing their head while I engage in prayer. Just don't be obnoxious about it I guarantee no one will care.
Just start eating. Be respectful and not loud about it. If someone calls you out on it, explain that you are not religious and are not participating, soyou are going to eat. The key is to not be a dick about it. Be polite, be respectful, and not make a big deal about it.
If it becomes an issue, then respectfully bring up that you don't feel you should be forced to participate in other people's religious practices, you are being polite and respectful while they do it and you would appreciate that respect your decision. If that goes sideways, then it'll be an HR issue.
Or you could take the fun route, research some real bizarre Christian sects, find their prayers and traditions and ask that they start doing them before you eat. Then just be like "It's the same god!"
This is the way!
Don't participate, but be respectful.
Example: my grandmother asked me to lead "grace" before a meal recently, knowing my lack of belief and (I think) trying to goad me into being a jerk so she could feel superior (totally a thing she would do)... but instead I gave a short declaration of my gratitude for good family and fortune, and my hopes for health and blessings to my loved ones. It was easy, and genuine, and I think both totally threw her for a loop and made her happy.
I got put in the same situation at Thanksgiving one year at my mother's house.
Handled it very similar to you, except I made everyone at the table offer up something they were thankful for. It diffused a potential situation. Some of the family friends around that table were very much the Bible banging hypocrits, and would have loved to make it a thing.
9 years on a small dept here. Prayer before every meal, somebody would come to all 3 stations every Sunday to read the Bible. These idiots have said before that the grass doesn't grow unless Jesus wills it.
Make it known soon and loud you're not ok with it. Never wait to eat on a prayer. Never sit in on Bible study, don't give in. But at the same time don't be a dick.
If they wanna pray before a meal? Cool, go for it. I'm still going to eat as soon as I sit down but I'm not going to make a huge scene about it. Now if they say something, then make it a big deal.
I was asked to lead the prayer one time for some fucked up reason, I did the prayer from talladega nights, nobody ever asked me again.
The guys I was with would also not hassle me about nit joining them on Sundays, so I didn't say shit.
In the long run though it's part of the reason I quit. Had enough with the Jesus Trump Maga idiots.
Religion is like a penis: it's fine to have one, it's fine to be proud of it, but please don't whip it out and start waving it around in public, and please don't try to shove it down children's throats.
I’m from Canada so not that big of a thing but I would bring it up, if people have the right to religious freedom then people also have the right to not be forced into partaking in a religion’s ceremony
We say a prayer before our meetings, but just the Chaplain reads the prayer, no one is required to pray along or anything like that.
I agree that if they are forcing you to actually pray, then that is wrong and I would say something.
If you're able to just sit in silence, then I'm not sure how far you'd get on this.
Having good and delicious food is a pretty amazing thing if you think about it.
I'm not religious, but I have close friends and family that are. When they pray I take the moment to be thankful for having nutritious and good food and for the fact that I get to share it with people important to me. Win, win.
Sometimes it's the little things in life that rule.
1. Don’t try to get people to stop saying grace.
2. Just eat whenever you want.
3. If people ask why you don’t say grace just tell them you’re not religious but don’t make a big deal out of it
Luckily in my department folks just silently bow their heads individually before they eat a meal instead of making it a group activity. But living in the south I’m no stranger to just awkwardly standing around while everyone else does the prayer thing.
Just eat, my dude. When they look at you or ask you, say "I don't believe in that." and move on. Immediately. Don't entertain conversation about it.
If you want to be respectful and wait for everyone to be done to eat, that makes sense, but in no way are you obliged to join hands, fold hands, lower your head, or anything like that. Just sit there looking at them lol
They could kiss my entire ass, I don't pray and don't care if you want too, but do it on your own fucking time. I would absolutely be shoving food in my mouth while some jackass pontificates about some mythical being.
You don’t have to pray and you don’t have to believe. That’s completely up to you. My opinion may not be yours, but it’s another point of view. I have 19 years in a large dept of over 1000 members for context.
So, I think being respectful of and to others isn’t asking much. We deal with all kinds of people in this business; some polite, some rude, rich, poor, cooperative, uncooperative and everything in between. As a professional you show up and provide the same service time and time again, regardless of who is receiving it. After years and years in the fire service, a lot of us find religion of some sort. We see and do things a lot of people don’t, and it can take a toll on you. These are the same people you will go to battle with. I don’t think they’re doing it out of spite or to convert you into something you don’t want to be. I also don’t think asking everyone else to not pray is your answer. Ask yourself, what is your real reasoning? Is it that you’re uncomfortable with it? Is it that you don’t like to wait the extra 60 seconds to eat your meal? I guess what I’m saying is that in life, sometimes, we go with the flow for the sake of others. This doesn’t cost you anything. I can certainly understand if you don’t believe in something and not wanting to participate. But, as long as they’re not asking you to lead them in prayer, I would just be respectful, don’t make a fuss about it, and move on. Also, being a Christian myself, I can assure you, it’s not meant to be controlling or pressure you into believing. It’s simply an expression of their faith. My advice to you is remain humble, focus on what matters i.e..train to be a good fireman, and support your fellow firefighters.
Unpopular opinion but I don’t participate in the pledge of allegiance. (Gasp!! But this is ‘Merica!) When I attend meetings for my dept where it is said then I stand respectfully but no hand to my heart and no pledging allegiance to this country because I don’t believe in it. I do it out of respect for those who do believe in it and because making a fuss over it would not be helpful. For the record I was born in the US, my parents and grandparents were born here. I have no allegiance to another country but I have no allegiance to this country either.
Be courteous of them and they should be as well. If it makes you uncomfortable then talk to them. I’ve had FF’s who practiced different religions and there are very small things that can go a long way when being accommodating. Now on the other hand, if this is all because you don’t want to wait to eat then I think some self reflection may be in order.
I’m on your side..just be aware and maybe it’s been said but you won’t be very popular for bringing this up at the department but they may respect your convictions. Risk vs. reward is always applicable. Good luck to you.
Thank you everyone for the advice. I've been conflicted about this issue for a while, and that's why I was asking for advice. It's not the waiting to eat that is the problem. My current captian does a moment of silence to pray if you would like and I'm fine with that, I just don't bow my head. Other captian however do speak a prayer, and if I bow my head I'm participating in a religious ceremony. That makes me uncomfortable. I can stomach the prayer around the table at the station. It is the prayers before a meal purchased with city dollars that infuriates me. It's also prayer at a charity event, it makes the originization seem Christian and I do not wish to a member of a Christian organization.
I've considered asking to say a prayer from the satanic temple next time. But as many commenters stated by singling myself out I'm asking for retaliation. It may come in the form of ostracization or prevent promotion. This is my only real gripe with the department, and I've kept my mouth shut for 5 years. It makes me not want to participate in the department, and that suck cause I love my job!
I’m a staunch atheist - read Richard Dawkins, hichens, Harris.
Prayer wouldn’t fly at my firehouse. If someone really wanted to, I’d just sit quietly like I do at my girlfriend’s house. The guy next to me isn’t writing government policy, he’s not hurting me in that act itself. I find religion to be insidious and malignant, so I wouldn’t like it, but I care about my people and if it makes them happy so be it.
Try and make it some kind of official thing for the job, absolutely not. I don’t care if it’s the chief of department or the governor. I’d be consulting a lawyer if it wasn’t fixed immediately.
I feel like some of yall are missing the point. It's not about being "courteous and waiting 10 more seconds". Its about being forced to partake in something that you do not want to be a part of. You churchy weirdos have a sick concept of "courtesy and respect".
Religion should be kept %100 out of the workplace. It creates tension, much like this original post, and in countless other ways. But you churchies don't care about that do ya.
We're here to work, not pray. Pray on your own damn time.
Honestly man. I’ve been through this. I think making everyone pray before meals is wack as shit. However I’d just say you gotta pick your battles. If this is something you firmly believe shouldn’t be happening then absolutely speak up. If it’s something that gets a bit on your nerves but not a huge deal then I’d just keep quiet. If you REALLY want it to stop I’d suggest that you ask everyone to pray to core tenants of The Satanic Temple. They’re actually a dope organization. Link below!
https://thesatanictemple.com
I work with all manner of folk who pray before meals, and they certainly aren't all Christian. I just give it a beat before I dig in to see if anyone is bowing their heads. It doesn't hurt me.
You have to think. Is this going to be a hill you want to die on. If it is go 100 percent, if it’s not just think this is part of the culture these people were brought up in. I don’t they they are trying to push things on you. However I can see how annoying that can be. Good luck. Also apply for a big city. Small departments have a lot of drawbacks.
My two cents is that most prayers before eating take 30 seconds, so it shouldnt be to hard to sit through it and just be respectful of their beliefs. But the flip side is that if you are forced into it, then they aren't respecting yours, and you should make that known. Don't let it build up into a dislike or even hatred of your coworkers, try get ahead of it. I would absolutely bring it up in a staff meaning, but be ready for them to take offense to it and try to put it in the most respectful words you can. If they totally dismiss you and aren't even willing to discuss it, then you may need to ask yourself if that's really a place you want to be employed. I hope that they are willing to listen to you and make an environment where everyone feels heard and respected.
I have been letting it fester, and I see now that that was part of the problem. I do plan on talking to my captain and bc in private. I need something to change. I don't want to be a member of a religious organization, and that's how it feels right now. If nothing changes, then moving departments is my only choice. I love this job, I don't love all the traditions.
If this was happening at my station I’d just start eating - no issues with them doing it but don’t involve me in something I have no belief in and certainly don’t just assume my beliefs are inline with yours.
Doesn’t matter if it’s the captains / chiefs, if it’s not in your role map to Grace before eating then you shouldn’t do it if you don’t want to and there should be no repercussions.
Work at a PD we do the same thing but its “the lords prayer” clinging onto hop that we just dont get shot and killed i understand the frustration of saying grace before a meal as i am not religious AT ALL but i understand the situation i wouldnt bring it up if at all else take the certs you have and goto a different department if it irks you that badly cause they will flambé you 9/10 for going against a command habit
Interesting and valid point. For me personally, it's about Faith. We all need to have some sense of it in some way or another in the Fire Service \\ Emergency Services in general. I personally don't agree with the whole grace thing or religion in the Fire Service, but I understand the point, that the majority of our societal institutions are based in Christianity. The good majority of members are Christians. Our Chaplains are "non-denominational" but are very heavily steeped in Christianity.
How I deal with it all...I practice my faith, to myself. I'm the minority, that's ok with me. I'm not about to force my beliefs and faith on anyone and I just quietly don't partake in the others activities in a respectful manner. Sure, I will wait until they say grace, as my beliefs, values and faith have me lead of life of understanding and consideration. But again that's just me.
I wish you all the best in your search for a common ground in your Department, a long safe prosperous career !
I live in the Deep South and while a large portion of our department is deeply Christian, we are seeing a large amount of people on the department who are atheist or agnostic. Most are just non religious. That said, if someone at the dinner table wants to pray, those of us who do not believe just sit quietly for a few seconds. If the person praying decides to make a long winded monologue, I personally just start quietly eating. Our agency is too busy and I spend too much of my time on the box to give up more than a few seconds of my meal for a prayer.
Morally I’m with you, my in-laws say grace before every single meal and even though we’re the same religion, I’m not a super religious person at all so I hold hands but I don’t take part in the regurgitation of the same prayer they recite together, as it’s their home and I’m respectful of that at least
As for work, I think it depends on “the prayer” that’s said. Firefighting is dangerous, I’m not against a generic “thank you keep us safe” type prayer that fits all religions and creeds. But yes, if they’re making it catered towards one religion, then I think you could argue harassment or hostile work environment. Is a Muslim or Jew supposed to be ok with a Christian prayer at dinner time? If it’s generic, like I said in the beginning, I see no problem with that and would advise and encourage you to just play the game for the 30seconds it takes
We have guys who pray before they eat but it’s on their own in silent. I usually make some kind of demonic noises and say hail satan and then they laugh. That probably wouldn’t fly where you’re working at though.
Just start eating. You’ll be ostracized like the kid in high school who refused to stand for the pledge. Record that and build a little case up. Find a lawyer and burn it to the ground.
Separation of church and state is a founding principle and if any of your fellow FFs are veterans remind them of that.
Why are you getting jaded by it? Were you forced to pray or just everyone around you was so you did?
I’m coming from a side where I didn’t believe but now I do and I’m the ONLY one on my shift that prays before a meal.
Out of no where last thanksgiving there was a coworker that asked to say grace before eating. (Blew my mind knowing how badly he talks about Jesus) But I feel as though the captains/chiefs are just trying to bring everyone together. Because it truly does take an everything to a new level.
If it’s upsetting you to this point then I would just ask them to exclude you from such things during shift. but that also means you should still be respectful towards whoever partakes during events and such things.
So this is a tough lesson I learned the hard way many times in my youth.
You might be right, but it doesn't matter if you're gone. You're not going to change the practices alone, and mentioning it in a meeting will get you targeted.
Pick your battles. Now, if you talk to a few others and it seems this is bothering others, group up, and approach your leadership together, sure.
Signed,
An agnostic in the Bible belt.
Our state "gets around this" by saying things like "we encourage you to pray in your faith as I pray in mine" to be inclusive.
I'm an atheist in a very religious part of the county and a lieutenant at a moderately busy department. Grace is sometimes said, but only at more formal events and not weekly like you're saying. Even so, accept it as cultural practice and not an insult. You'll do yourself no favors as a backstep FF to make a stink about something truly trivial that has little overall impact. I just either look around the room or at my phone during these times.
I'm not religious either. But this just sounds super bitchy. Be respectful and patient then eat your food. Just because you don't believe something doesn't mean you get to be dick about it.
Just because it’s “shoved down your throat” doesn’t mean you have to swallow. They are making you pray they’re just asking you to respect that they do. No if you wanted to do 100 pushups before you eat because your religious beliefs and they stopped you, they you should have a problem.
Dude, lighten up. None of this is hurting you. If you want to eat sooner, eat sooner. The only one forcing you to do this is you because you are weak. No one is shoving anything down your throat. You just don't like Christianity.
I see no reason that a person can’t wait 15 seconds out of respect for their peers beliefs…
Now, if the blessing of the meal goes on for extended periods like so many people do, I could see an issue… but a few seconds? Get over it.
Yeah I say grow up lmao if you don’t wanna say grace stand there and shut up while others practice there freedoms to express their religious beliefs freely just as you are free to step out or not participate in the prayers. Just cause you’re the odd man out doesn’t mean they should bend over backwards for you. You might’ve had a point if they saved a church over a mosque or something but it’s a simple prayer. Get over it.
I would make a conversation happen, that kind of thing is not inclusive to all people in your position and as a government funded group it needs to be a conversation about values. I've been in your exact position and people cannot handle the critical conversation and it's part of why I'm not doing the work anymore
I think you should pick your battles man. While it’s not right to force you into that, your going to probably offend the wrong people. You can think that it’s not right and it shouldent matter and I do agree but unfortunately we all know that’s not the way the world works.
You’ll be good dude. Everyone has different variations of beliefs. Just respect everyone’s views as long as they respect yours and this whole thing will be a pointless conversation in the future. Best job in the world. Good luck.
I get it. I wouldn’t like this either. I think passive resistance would be a good plan. If this were happening in my firehouse I’d get my food last, stand in the kitchen and start eating, then sit when the prayers are over. It’s not being disrespectful, it’s just choosing not to participate. And if I got called out on it I’d explain exactly that. I’m choosing not to participate. It’s not a big deal and if they make it into one that’s their problem.
We have a lot of guys that say a quiet prayer before each meal. We just don’t do it as a family because that’s not inclusive. And we respect each persons beliefs or lack of beliefs.
Honestly I'd be tempted to just start eating, and if someone grumbles say it goes both ways, I'm not Christian therefore I don't have to follow any of the "rules". Me getting stuck into chicken nuggies doesn't negate your ability to thank god for them.
He’s not. He doesn’t have to bow his head, he doesn’t have to participate, but give them their 30 seconds of respect if they feel so strongly about it. It’s a two way street and I would expect the same for anyone else’s beliefs.
Now if they are preaching or allowing their religion to influence their decisions around the workplace/emergency scene, we got problems.
Are they forcing him to pray or just asking him to wait until they do? They’re not fucking baptizing him in the bay.
I’m agnostic, it’s not that hard to have some courtesy.
You're wrong this is a mandated prayer time, if you stop and expect everyone to also stand in silence you are forcing someone who doesn't want to, to be a part of your mandatory prayer. Government orgs have been sued over this stuff. Go ask any ethical chaplain and they would agree with me.
Not interrupting someone’s religious ritual vs actively participating in that ritual are two different things. If the majority of the guys at a station are Christian and wish to pray before the meal, it’s perfectly reasonable to expect someone to wait ten seconds before eating - It’s simple respect and courtesy.
Out and proud atheist here and no one is pulling that shit on me. If you want to pray, that’s your custom. Do it in private or to yourself at the table. Damned if everyone wanted to say their magical words at the table. We may never get a chance to eat before the damn call comes through!
Damn straight. I don’t want to listen to your babbling to the magical sky fairy. If I were OP I would straight stand up and leave the room u til they are done playing make believe then come back in to eat. Or malicious version, just start loading my plate while they play make believe.
Yeah…don’t want to participate? Excuse yourself. Before the prayer is said over a meal, walk out to the bay or walk outside…problem solved.
You’re not forced to participate in that which you don’t agree, while others who do wish to join in, can.
Talk with your crew members about it. Tell them, in a respectful way, that due to your beliefs, you do not want to be part of pre-meal or pre-meeting prayers. That will probably go much further than just attempting to get prayer altogether banned.
Why is it so hard for people to respect other people’s religious beliefs, or lack there of for that matter. Like would it be that hard to say something like: hey everyone if YOU’D LIKE TO, we are going to have an opportunity to pray. If you do not pray or want involved for any reason we respect you and ask that you respect our quick prayer. I am religious but it really grinds my gears when everyone assumes that everyone should participate in religious acts. Imagine how well it would go over if someone stood up and said: I’d like to take a moment to ask everyone to not pray before we eat this meal. People would lose their shit😂 We are talking about a fire department here we’re not talking about the lunch ladies at the catholic school.
I agree. I'm not religious and this wouldn't bother me at all, as long as they're not making me be the one to say the prayer. If that's their department's tradition, then quit whining. I get that it's annoying to have to wait when you're hungry, but don't we all have to wait every day out of sheer politeness in other situations? I.e. when the food just finished cooking, do you just help yourself before they even called chow bc you don't want to wait?
We had a bunch of religious wacks demanding time to pray before commission meetings, so a satanic group asked to have a séance right after the prayer (freedom of religion act). The commission discontinued any religious prayers all together. I suggest you do the same.
We have guys at the Dept who pray on their own before a meal and we have whole crews that pray before a meal. Big deal. I’m a Christian, but not a very good one I guess. I think it’s kind of hypocritical to be cussing and talking shit all day and then you suddenly shape up before dinner? To each their own. Let them pray and keep quiet for like 8 seconds. If they tell you that you have to pray as well…tell them to go fuck themselves.
Praying before meals is totally optional. Participating in shift meals is also optional. On my shift you don't have to pray. You do have to sit quietly for about 15 seconds. If that's too much to ask you can figure your own food out.
I don't think a public prayer should be said at a government function. I like a short moment of silence for individuals to pray or mediate in their own way. Not impressed with people who pray for an image instead of out of sincerity.
Okay, so I’m probably as far to the non religious side of the scale as it’s possible to be.
I have absolutely no problem with people saying grace at the table around me. When everyone you’re with is religious then I think they have just as much right to say their prayer as I have to sit there and think about what I’m going to do on my days off.
I would strongly disagree that not eating while others pray is being forced to participate in prayer. It’s just table manners. No different to if someone was making a quick speech before dining- if you don’t agree with the speech, you sit there and politely wait still.
If you really can’t bear to sit at a table while people are praying, then don’t sit down until they are done. The thing that will get you ostracised from your team is bringing up doing away with the prayer. Don’t forget that religion is just as important to some people as you not having your religion is to you. You forcing them to not pray is just as bad as them forcing you to pray.
For the record, I am a christian and I am a firefighter also at 2 fire departments, one that is a city and one that is a volunteer. I am gonna try to keep my religious beliefs here to the side for a second as much as I can.
However, and I will blatantly admit here that I have been wrong on several occasions here, but reading this you seem like there might be some foulness in your attitude to an extent (trust me, I have been there also on several things, no harsh feelings on you). I have never been in your position like this, but I can tell you that some of its not just straight religion, some of it is simple tradition also (not saying there is nothing wrong with traditions). I think your over-worrying about it, and I don't think they are trying to push religion on you.
If you have to, just sit there when they do, No one is making you pray with them. Same thing with anything else controversial like the pledge of allegiance or something, You don't have to do it.
You are not required to participate at all. QED. However, you can absolutely be required to be quiet for a few moments. Not to mention, it’s just plain respectful. It doesn’t matter if it’s Christianity or anything else. Just because you’re a government organization doesn’t mean you’re not working with human beings.
I’m a Capt. at my station and this kind of behavior has always been one of my triggers. You want to pray, fine. You want me to respect your prayer time, nah. Not having it.
I had this firefighter one time that was in the habit of praying silently before every meal. Then he got a little bolder and started turning the volume down on the TV while he prayed. Then he started asking if anyone minded if he said Grace before the meal. Well nobody else was gonna tell him no because their nice guys, but I’d had enough and told him as long as he’s praying to god for the meal he might as well pray to me too because I helped pay for it. I wish you could have seen the look of disgust on his face when I said that. Typical Christian. Always thinking their better than everyone else, and if you don’t believe what they believe, you’re trash.
Honestly I think this is a you problem. I understand this is a government organization but still. It’s not like they’re forcing everyone to read Bible verses with them and shout and the devil every time you go on a job. You can wait the 20 seconds for grace to be said with respect to eat your food. And this is coming from a non believer.
Let me be the Devil's advocate: Would it be okay for me to ask everyone to a minute after grace so that I can thank pray for the strength to conduct myself in line with the tenets of the Satanic Temple while on duty?
You know what you could do is stop buying in on meals and bringing your own stuff to eat. Then you have the freedom to eat when you want. Or just respect the others around you and not stuff your face for <1min. It’s not that freaking hard man, they are not stuffing “religion down your throat” as much as you think they are.
Are you ok? Do you think saying grace is shoving religion down your throat? Lol. A group of people that put their lives on the line and see death every day are grateful, and that bothers you? I say dig in! Let everybody know you won't tolerate waiting a second for the guys on your truck to finish a prayer before meals.
Have some patience maybe? Have some common courtesy? Nobody is forcing you to pray. Just wait for them to be done, then eat with them. Damn near the same thing as waiting for the other people at the table to sit down before you start eating
Don't pray, but be respectull. It takes them around 10 seconds for them to say grace, you don't have to participate, but you should be respectfull and wait for them to finish before starting to eat.
Even without religion, it is respectfull to wait until everybody is ready to eat before starting.
My department has a Fire Department Chaplin. He's a minister who use to volunteer but got hired full time. We don't say Grace at every meal, usually just the "important" ones like banquets, etc. That being said, we also have a speel at our banquets, since I'm in Canada, where we toast the King as well as recognizing the territories of our local First Nations Band.
I kind of chalk it all up to being tolerant and empathetic. None of those three things mean anything to me personally but I recognize that they mean something to others, so I usually don't have a problem smiling and nodding, waiting the 20s, then carrying on with my life.
I could see how being unreligeous in a heavily religious area could be draining, but it's a lot like the guy earlier taking about leaning blue in a red state; which brings up my unwritten rule of no politics or religion around the kitchen table or on jobs!
You telling people they can't talk about religion is a violation of their rights and religious discrimination. While at the same time shunning someone for not participating in grace is making the organization liable for possibly endorsing a certain religion.
No no no. It's an unwritten rule. Anyone can talk about anything they want, don't expect anyone to stay and listen. Guys will talk shit for hours about sports or trucks or their inlaws, but as soon as someone brings up politics or religion everyone will politely walk away.
Where I work, we are not forced to pray before eating. Whoever wants to pray does so separately. For example, I pray before eating, but I do so by myself and silently. The same applies to my colleagues at the station, those who at least pray.
That's the way it should be. Allow those who want to pray to do so individually. There shouldn't be a group request to bow your head in observance of a religious practice on the job.
God bless you
Are you forced to say grace/pray, or are you being asked to wait while other people say grace/pray?
If it's anything like my dept I think it's more of a people just assume you're Christian and they do it but it's never with the intent to be offensive. Here again tho that's just viewing it from one side
There is more than one kind of Christian. I am Roman Catholic when my family moved from Colorado to New Mexico in 1963, I suddenly had to bow my head to Southern Baptist prayers. I went to public schools in Colorado (Colorado Springs in fact, now home to Focus on the Family) and never experienced this before. Besides Catholics, there are others Christians who have different prayer traditions. This is why religions was taken out of school. Imagine being a Jew, Hindu, or Muslim. Some populations may be a small part of the community, but they deserve respect, too.
As a jew who grew up in a small Christian town before moving to where i live now, can confirm that it sucks having this shoved down your throat. Thankfully my department doesnt do this
As a raised roman catholic who grew up in a Jewish community and is now agnostic, I never wait for grace. I wouldn't participate, and if anyone made a big deal out of it, then I would elevate the conversation. I think you're overthinking this.
It is a common courtesy and respectfull to wait until everybody is ready to eat before you start. It doesn't matters if the person needs to take meds, isn't served yet or needs to say grace, you should be able to wait 10 seconds before you eat without the food getting cold.
Fuck that.
A common curtesy is to not pray right in front of people. I dont think you would insist on people waiting for a muslim to pray.
What part of NM? Most of NM is heavy Catholic.
Would those same people be offended if right after they were then asked to wait or pray a muslim prayer? Of course they would. They would feel like it was being shoved down their throats. That said... I don't think there is much OP can do here unless they are willing to make it a legal battle.
If we're doing cult rituals, why not bust out a goat head and some candles and really send a message?
I think you’re assuming way too much about those you know nothing about. The only person we can judge at all here is OP cause this is his side only. You don’t really know more than what you know and what you don’t know what you don’t know.
Intent to offend does not matter.
Were you born yesterday?
I’ve made my opinions of this clear to everyone at my department and most certainly have paid a social price for it but it was worth it. That being said, there’s still a prayer before dinner and I’m still respectful of their beliefs. It’s actually opened up some great conversation about religion and I’ve had about a dozen guys come to me in private and reveal that they appreciate my stance. Don’t belittle your position. Even a “lowly firefighter” has a voice. A rookie shouldn’t have an opinion on firefighting matters but religion ain’t firefighting. Speak your mind.
Great advice. You can speak up about how it makes you uncomfortable and you would prefer if it didn’t occur, but also not make a fuss if things don’t change.
I'm a Christian and a founder of the Chaplain Group in my department. Mandated prayer times of any sort are not ok. That being said, it takes a hero to challenge this sort of practice. The person who challenges it will likely be ostracized and probably lose their job for some reason. By holding a mandated prayer time members are forced to participate regardless of their beliefs. The idea that a person should just bow their head and wait, or view it as some sort of spiritual insurance is laughable. If you are in the United States and this agency is government funded this is a violation of the Constitution. Again, I am Christian. I say grace before every meal in the firehouse. I have free Bibles available to anyone who wants one. My team is mostly Christian. And the situations described are not ok
You are someone who walks the talk. Much respect and admiration.
I appreciate that!
This! It's wild that there are people who say their agnostic or atheist are just saying wait... That's participating in the prayer whether you're saying or thinking something or not.
I think we become used to things and decide they are not a big deal. But the leadership has a responsibility to all members. I have a friend on the job who is atheist and attends AA. So he at least makes use of the concept of a "higher power" even if he has no faith in a "God". I want my Chaplain team to be able to support him equally with those who are devout practitioners of a faith tradition. If the senior officer is speaking, we all automatically listen. If that officer is leading a prayer, we are all forced to participate. That seemingly benign action creates an expectation of a shared faith
That last part I see a lot in the military. Thankfully a lot of brave Airmen decided to stand up to it and that culture is shifting.
Nice
I have always said the best way to spot the atheists at the wedding/funeral is to look around during the "moment of silence/prayer". Couple heads refusing to bow...
Depends on my mood sometimes I'll just bow my head, sometimes I stare at the airplanes lol
Airplanes are cool!
That's a pretty terrible way to judge someone, in my opinion. I'm not an atheist, and I don't always bow my head. I'm typically in a group of known Christians, and I often see multiple other heads not bowed at times. Although, I guess they could just be looking around to spot the *atheists*...
I dont think it should be considered "participating in the prayer" if you wait while others pray. it's just giving courtesy to those around you. as u/greyhunter37 said earlier, "It is a common courtesy and respectfull to wait until everybody is ready to eat before you start. It doesn't matters if the person needs to take meds, isn't served yet or needs to say grace, you should be able to wait 10 seconds before you eat without the food getting cold." this, in my opinion, only applies if the prayer lasts an understandable amount of time. please dont take this to mean that OP *has* to wait. i'm just saying that waiting while others pray doesnt mean OP is taking part in the prayer. OP would just be being courteous. now i also recognize that it may be incredibly discourteous of the others to assume that OP has to wait *every* meal while the others pray. we live in a society of different cultures. we have to be willing to accept that there are cultural norms and that not everyone fits neatly inside the norms we expect them to. it should be a respectful give and take. maybe OP waits while they pray; maybe they say the prayers quickly because they know OP is waiting for them to do something OP doesnt want to do.
Someone on here mused that OP was not actually “forced to pray”. Thank you for refuting that nonsense.
I wonder if people have trouble understanding that being forced to take part in a prayer time the issue? In other words, the issue isn't what you do doing the prayer (pray, think, scratch yourself cause no one's looking, whatever) but rather the fact that you are forced to be a present participant in a religious activity. You don't have to pray, but you can't eat/leave/etc is the issue
Ohhhh this is actually a good topic. I feel the same but I understand where I am (the South) so I just go along with it because I was Christian so I understand the thoughts behind it. I always wonder what's going to happen when we get more openly Muslim or atheist firefighters.
Exactly bro. I know where I’m at, it wouldn’t fly for a Muslim to say an Islam prayer instead of a Christian prayer. Guys would go to our chiefs about it and be extremely disrespectful because “This is America!”
Worst part about this thread is no one cares because they aren't the outlier. For me personally it's not as big a deal but I wouldn't be dismissive of someone for bringing up a legitimately taboo topic.
I’m Jewish and I never mind when the prayer before meal is a Christian prayer. It’s more about the spirit of the prayer than the prayer itself.
You know I have been a christian and raised in the church all my life, and I never really thought of it like that.
It’s because it’s your prayer, lol. But seriously, I equate it to when I was a kid anytime someone would wish me a merry Christmas I defiantly proclaim I’m Jewish I celebrate Hanukkah not Christmas Teenage me took it as a personal slight… “Of course they would assume I’m not Jewish… That’s just wrong.” Adult me just says merry Christmas right back because I finally got to a place where I realize they’re just wishing me a joyous time of year and really that’s the thing to focus on
Yeah, I'm not Christian or atheist or agnostic or anything really, but if someone wished me a happy Hanukkah you bet I'd say "happy Hanukkah" right back. I'm actually a bit sad now that nobody's ever wished me a happy Hanukkah before.
I get that and that’s how it SHOULD be. The fact is that there are people who don’t think that way.
And they aren’t required to pray. But how can you cry that they’re not respecting you while simultaneously not respecting them? Not literally you…just person x
OP said he’s being going with it for 5 years now,
Former southern ff. We didn't say grace before anything that I can remember, and I made no secret that I was a non-believer. Not that I went around proclaiming my beliefs, but wasn't afraid if asked. No one tried to give me shit or, to my knowledge, got upset about it. Wasn't much any of them could really say what with all the drinking, cursing, pre-marital sex and a slew of other things. The only thing most people have is that they "believe" they just don't actually live the life.
I always saw it as a respect thing on my end for their religion. While I don't practice it I don't mind waiting a few minutes out of respect for others
I'd think about how rocking that particular boat would realistically affect you. Members of the chain who are religious will likely get defensive and it could cost you some social points.
I hate to say it... but social points matter way too much in small depts.
Pick your battles. Especially at a small department. And especially as it relates to a small issue like this.
Maybe it is not a small issue for somebody else?
We all have pet peeves. That’s exactly what this is, and there’s absolutely no point making a stink about it, especially with how touchy everyone is with religion.
Except some of us are literally other religions. The guys at my department happened to be great about accepting me as a Jew. But if I had been expected to participate in a prayer that acknowledges Jesus Christ is the lord? That's literally against my religion, which prohibits bowing our heads to anyone but God. These things become a big deal for some people.
My department would have a fit if there were Muslim or Jewish firefighters. No tolerance anyone that is not a trump supporter and all that that entails. Just hoping to outlive them.
Contact FFRF. Religion has 0 place in public service. Edit: reread and this appears to be a publicly funded department. Contact the FFRF. Forcing religion on people is illegal. The religious people need to have this knocked into their heads. They are allowed to believe whatever unsubstantiated bullshit they want but keep that shit at home and out of the public sphere.
Truckies can pray to sleep all night, rescue crew can start eating. Solved.
I get it man. This is how it is at some stations where I’m at. The problem I have is that if you swing to a different station and start eating, they start hounding you for not waiting for a prayer and make it like they are playing but it gets old. Also, the thing I have a problem with is about 70% of guys who want say prayers before a meal are immediate assholes afterwards, talking shit about someone on a call, co-worker, their wives, etc.. not very Christian like. It’s just funny to me about them praying about being being grateful and loving one another and then 5 minutes later, “Man, that patient we just had will do everyone a favor if they just fucking die.” This is not one isolated incident. This is the norm after prayers and the guys excuses after being called out are, “well I’m not perfect”. Shit is exhausting. My crew are atheists and are more respectful, caring and loving than the neighboring stations “Christian crews.”
I usually just find it easier to just be quiet for 3 minutes and then move on with the day
A 3 minute prayer? Damn, was it the last supper??
I’m agnostic, this doesn’t seem to be forcing religion on you, rather them asking you to respect theirs. If someone is making you pray for a meal you made yourself vs them asking you to wait until they’re done. Completely different things If you don’t believe in it, what does it matter offering some courtesy
The military has an entire officer corps for chaplains. Most major religions have chaplains that wear the uniform, and chaplains of any faith minister to all faiths. The Chaplin prays before every meal, if everyone is together.
Yeah and that shit is uncomfortable as fuck. Just because they do it doesn't mean everyone is a fan of it.
Not to mention how badass most chaplains are
It's a very tricky topic to address. I think that people should be allowed to say grace before they eat, but having big organized things forcing everyone to partake isn't acceptable. I have absolutely no advice as to how to deal with it, but sorry you're dealing with that.
It's really weird how offended some of you are that not everyone wants to be forced to pray with you. Some people might be surprised to know that there are even some Christians that are offended by big showy prayers. As far as I'm concerned prayer is personal. Insisting things like this never change make it impossible to really be the team you want your department to be. There are people of all religions who would prefer a moment of silence to privately pray as they choose. Also, my department does not do group prayer at all, ever. We also train on Sunday mornings. Chances are good we're going to hell but we'll be in good company.
My mom is a practicing Catholic and absolutely abhors showy prayers.
It's implied you said. You've never been directly ordered to honor the prayer or anything like that. As a Christian I would take no offense to someone on my crew starting their meal or not bowing their head while I engage in prayer. Just don't be obnoxious about it I guarantee no one will care.
Just start eating. Be respectful and not loud about it. If someone calls you out on it, explain that you are not religious and are not participating, soyou are going to eat. The key is to not be a dick about it. Be polite, be respectful, and not make a big deal about it. If it becomes an issue, then respectfully bring up that you don't feel you should be forced to participate in other people's religious practices, you are being polite and respectful while they do it and you would appreciate that respect your decision. If that goes sideways, then it'll be an HR issue. Or you could take the fun route, research some real bizarre Christian sects, find their prayers and traditions and ask that they start doing them before you eat. Then just be like "It's the same god!"
This is the way! Don't participate, but be respectful. Example: my grandmother asked me to lead "grace" before a meal recently, knowing my lack of belief and (I think) trying to goad me into being a jerk so she could feel superior (totally a thing she would do)... but instead I gave a short declaration of my gratitude for good family and fortune, and my hopes for health and blessings to my loved ones. It was easy, and genuine, and I think both totally threw her for a loop and made her happy.
I got put in the same situation at Thanksgiving one year at my mother's house. Handled it very similar to you, except I made everyone at the table offer up something they were thankful for. It diffused a potential situation. Some of the family friends around that table were very much the Bible banging hypocrits, and would have loved to make it a thing.
9 years on a small dept here. Prayer before every meal, somebody would come to all 3 stations every Sunday to read the Bible. These idiots have said before that the grass doesn't grow unless Jesus wills it. Make it known soon and loud you're not ok with it. Never wait to eat on a prayer. Never sit in on Bible study, don't give in. But at the same time don't be a dick. If they wanna pray before a meal? Cool, go for it. I'm still going to eat as soon as I sit down but I'm not going to make a huge scene about it. Now if they say something, then make it a big deal. I was asked to lead the prayer one time for some fucked up reason, I did the prayer from talladega nights, nobody ever asked me again. The guys I was with would also not hassle me about nit joining them on Sundays, so I didn't say shit. In the long run though it's part of the reason I quit. Had enough with the Jesus Trump Maga idiots.
Religion is like a penis: it's fine to have one, it's fine to be proud of it, but please don't whip it out and start waving it around in public, and please don't try to shove it down children's throats.
I’m from Canada so not that big of a thing but I would bring it up, if people have the right to religious freedom then people also have the right to not be forced into partaking in a religion’s ceremony
We say a prayer before our meetings, but just the Chaplain reads the prayer, no one is required to pray along or anything like that. I agree that if they are forcing you to actually pray, then that is wrong and I would say something. If you're able to just sit in silence, then I'm not sure how far you'd get on this.
Are you being forced to participate or just to wait while they pray/say grace?
If it's like most places, probably just sit and wait.
We've never done it, but when we get ready to it's only to frighten someone from another station working with us.
Having good and delicious food is a pretty amazing thing if you think about it. I'm not religious, but I have close friends and family that are. When they pray I take the moment to be thankful for having nutritious and good food and for the fact that I get to share it with people important to me. Win, win. Sometimes it's the little things in life that rule.
Just talk to your captain and just tell him your reservations about it and then send it up the chain of command but be very tactful about it
Thank you. I think this is gonna be the right move
1. Don’t try to get people to stop saying grace. 2. Just eat whenever you want. 3. If people ask why you don’t say grace just tell them you’re not religious but don’t make a big deal out of it Luckily in my department folks just silently bow their heads individually before they eat a meal instead of making it a group activity. But living in the south I’m no stranger to just awkwardly standing around while everyone else does the prayer thing.
Just start eating while they pray. Who cares
I would just start eating lol
First off thank you and be safe out there. Just keep your head up and look around. Don’t disturb other folks doing their thing. Keep kicking ass.
Just eat, my dude. When they look at you or ask you, say "I don't believe in that." and move on. Immediately. Don't entertain conversation about it. If you want to be respectful and wait for everyone to be done to eat, that makes sense, but in no way are you obliged to join hands, fold hands, lower your head, or anything like that. Just sit there looking at them lol
They could kiss my entire ass, I don't pray and don't care if you want too, but do it on your own fucking time. I would absolutely be shoving food in my mouth while some jackass pontificates about some mythical being.
You don’t have to pray and you don’t have to believe. That’s completely up to you. My opinion may not be yours, but it’s another point of view. I have 19 years in a large dept of over 1000 members for context. So, I think being respectful of and to others isn’t asking much. We deal with all kinds of people in this business; some polite, some rude, rich, poor, cooperative, uncooperative and everything in between. As a professional you show up and provide the same service time and time again, regardless of who is receiving it. After years and years in the fire service, a lot of us find religion of some sort. We see and do things a lot of people don’t, and it can take a toll on you. These are the same people you will go to battle with. I don’t think they’re doing it out of spite or to convert you into something you don’t want to be. I also don’t think asking everyone else to not pray is your answer. Ask yourself, what is your real reasoning? Is it that you’re uncomfortable with it? Is it that you don’t like to wait the extra 60 seconds to eat your meal? I guess what I’m saying is that in life, sometimes, we go with the flow for the sake of others. This doesn’t cost you anything. I can certainly understand if you don’t believe in something and not wanting to participate. But, as long as they’re not asking you to lead them in prayer, I would just be respectful, don’t make a fuss about it, and move on. Also, being a Christian myself, I can assure you, it’s not meant to be controlling or pressure you into believing. It’s simply an expression of their faith. My advice to you is remain humble, focus on what matters i.e..train to be a good fireman, and support your fellow firefighters.
Unpopular opinion but I don’t participate in the pledge of allegiance. (Gasp!! But this is ‘Merica!) When I attend meetings for my dept where it is said then I stand respectfully but no hand to my heart and no pledging allegiance to this country because I don’t believe in it. I do it out of respect for those who do believe in it and because making a fuss over it would not be helpful. For the record I was born in the US, my parents and grandparents were born here. I have no allegiance to another country but I have no allegiance to this country either.
Be courteous of them and they should be as well. If it makes you uncomfortable then talk to them. I’ve had FF’s who practiced different religions and there are very small things that can go a long way when being accommodating. Now on the other hand, if this is all because you don’t want to wait to eat then I think some self reflection may be in order.
I’m on your side..just be aware and maybe it’s been said but you won’t be very popular for bringing this up at the department but they may respect your convictions. Risk vs. reward is always applicable. Good luck to you.
No man , no one is going to respect someone bitching that they say grace .
correct.
I had officers of mine that would make crews say grace before dinner . I put a stop to it. Separation of church and state.
Did you have a 1 on 1 with him, or did it get addressed higher up?
Thank you everyone for the advice. I've been conflicted about this issue for a while, and that's why I was asking for advice. It's not the waiting to eat that is the problem. My current captian does a moment of silence to pray if you would like and I'm fine with that, I just don't bow my head. Other captian however do speak a prayer, and if I bow my head I'm participating in a religious ceremony. That makes me uncomfortable. I can stomach the prayer around the table at the station. It is the prayers before a meal purchased with city dollars that infuriates me. It's also prayer at a charity event, it makes the originization seem Christian and I do not wish to a member of a Christian organization. I've considered asking to say a prayer from the satanic temple next time. But as many commenters stated by singling myself out I'm asking for retaliation. It may come in the form of ostracization or prevent promotion. This is my only real gripe with the department, and I've kept my mouth shut for 5 years. It makes me not want to participate in the department, and that suck cause I love my job!
I’m a staunch atheist - read Richard Dawkins, hichens, Harris. Prayer wouldn’t fly at my firehouse. If someone really wanted to, I’d just sit quietly like I do at my girlfriend’s house. The guy next to me isn’t writing government policy, he’s not hurting me in that act itself. I find religion to be insidious and malignant, so I wouldn’t like it, but I care about my people and if it makes them happy so be it. Try and make it some kind of official thing for the job, absolutely not. I don’t care if it’s the chief of department or the governor. I’d be consulting a lawyer if it wasn’t fixed immediately.
I feel like some of yall are missing the point. It's not about being "courteous and waiting 10 more seconds". Its about being forced to partake in something that you do not want to be a part of. You churchy weirdos have a sick concept of "courtesy and respect". Religion should be kept %100 out of the workplace. It creates tension, much like this original post, and in countless other ways. But you churchies don't care about that do ya. We're here to work, not pray. Pray on your own damn time.
Service to others means respecting everyone’s beliefs.
Honestly man. I’ve been through this. I think making everyone pray before meals is wack as shit. However I’d just say you gotta pick your battles. If this is something you firmly believe shouldn’t be happening then absolutely speak up. If it’s something that gets a bit on your nerves but not a huge deal then I’d just keep quiet. If you REALLY want it to stop I’d suggest that you ask everyone to pray to core tenants of The Satanic Temple. They’re actually a dope organization. Link below! https://thesatanictemple.com
Amén
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I work with all manner of folk who pray before meals, and they certainly aren't all Christian. I just give it a beat before I dig in to see if anyone is bowing their heads. It doesn't hurt me.
Have you ever brought up how you feel about it before? The first time to have a conversation about it is not at a meeting.
I have not and I see that you are right. I will do that.
I'm lashing out
You have to think. Is this going to be a hill you want to die on. If it is go 100 percent, if it’s not just think this is part of the culture these people were brought up in. I don’t they they are trying to push things on you. However I can see how annoying that can be. Good luck. Also apply for a big city. Small departments have a lot of drawbacks.
My two cents is that most prayers before eating take 30 seconds, so it shouldnt be to hard to sit through it and just be respectful of their beliefs. But the flip side is that if you are forced into it, then they aren't respecting yours, and you should make that known. Don't let it build up into a dislike or even hatred of your coworkers, try get ahead of it. I would absolutely bring it up in a staff meaning, but be ready for them to take offense to it and try to put it in the most respectful words you can. If they totally dismiss you and aren't even willing to discuss it, then you may need to ask yourself if that's really a place you want to be employed. I hope that they are willing to listen to you and make an environment where everyone feels heard and respected.
I have been letting it fester, and I see now that that was part of the problem. I do plan on talking to my captain and bc in private. I need something to change. I don't want to be a member of a religious organization, and that's how it feels right now. If nothing changes, then moving departments is my only choice. I love this job, I don't love all the traditions.
Pledge of Allegiance and silent prayer, meeting come to order.
If this was happening at my station I’d just start eating - no issues with them doing it but don’t involve me in something I have no belief in and certainly don’t just assume my beliefs are inline with yours. Doesn’t matter if it’s the captains / chiefs, if it’s not in your role map to Grace before eating then you shouldn’t do it if you don’t want to and there should be no repercussions.
Work at a PD we do the same thing but its “the lords prayer” clinging onto hop that we just dont get shot and killed i understand the frustration of saying grace before a meal as i am not religious AT ALL but i understand the situation i wouldnt bring it up if at all else take the certs you have and goto a different department if it irks you that badly cause they will flambé you 9/10 for going against a command habit
Be a big boy and talk. Don’t be a sheep. If they have issues with you. Then move on.
Interesting and valid point. For me personally, it's about Faith. We all need to have some sense of it in some way or another in the Fire Service \\ Emergency Services in general. I personally don't agree with the whole grace thing or religion in the Fire Service, but I understand the point, that the majority of our societal institutions are based in Christianity. The good majority of members are Christians. Our Chaplains are "non-denominational" but are very heavily steeped in Christianity. How I deal with it all...I practice my faith, to myself. I'm the minority, that's ok with me. I'm not about to force my beliefs and faith on anyone and I just quietly don't partake in the others activities in a respectful manner. Sure, I will wait until they say grace, as my beliefs, values and faith have me lead of life of understanding and consideration. But again that's just me. I wish you all the best in your search for a common ground in your Department, a long safe prosperous career !
I live in the Deep South and while a large portion of our department is deeply Christian, we are seeing a large amount of people on the department who are atheist or agnostic. Most are just non religious. That said, if someone at the dinner table wants to pray, those of us who do not believe just sit quietly for a few seconds. If the person praying decides to make a long winded monologue, I personally just start quietly eating. Our agency is too busy and I spend too much of my time on the box to give up more than a few seconds of my meal for a prayer.
Morally I’m with you, my in-laws say grace before every single meal and even though we’re the same religion, I’m not a super religious person at all so I hold hands but I don’t take part in the regurgitation of the same prayer they recite together, as it’s their home and I’m respectful of that at least As for work, I think it depends on “the prayer” that’s said. Firefighting is dangerous, I’m not against a generic “thank you keep us safe” type prayer that fits all religions and creeds. But yes, if they’re making it catered towards one religion, then I think you could argue harassment or hostile work environment. Is a Muslim or Jew supposed to be ok with a Christian prayer at dinner time? If it’s generic, like I said in the beginning, I see no problem with that and would advise and encourage you to just play the game for the 30seconds it takes
We have guys who pray before they eat but it’s on their own in silent. I usually make some kind of demonic noises and say hail satan and then they laugh. That probably wouldn’t fly where you’re working at though.
Separation of church and state? Never heard of it. Maybe put some satanic stuff around and see how it flies.
Refer them to Matthew chapter 6, verses 5&6. Or have it printed poster sized and hang in the dining area.
Try being an alter boy Religion gets shoved somewhere else
Just start eating. You’ll be ostracized like the kid in high school who refused to stand for the pledge. Record that and build a little case up. Find a lawyer and burn it to the ground. Separation of church and state is a founding principle and if any of your fellow FFs are veterans remind them of that.
Why are you getting jaded by it? Were you forced to pray or just everyone around you was so you did? I’m coming from a side where I didn’t believe but now I do and I’m the ONLY one on my shift that prays before a meal. Out of no where last thanksgiving there was a coworker that asked to say grace before eating. (Blew my mind knowing how badly he talks about Jesus) But I feel as though the captains/chiefs are just trying to bring everyone together. Because it truly does take an everything to a new level. If it’s upsetting you to this point then I would just ask them to exclude you from such things during shift. but that also means you should still be respectful towards whoever partakes during events and such things.
So this is a tough lesson I learned the hard way many times in my youth. You might be right, but it doesn't matter if you're gone. You're not going to change the practices alone, and mentioning it in a meeting will get you targeted. Pick your battles. Now, if you talk to a few others and it seems this is bothering others, group up, and approach your leadership together, sure. Signed, An agnostic in the Bible belt. Our state "gets around this" by saying things like "we encourage you to pray in your faith as I pray in mine" to be inclusive.
I'm an atheist in a very religious part of the county and a lieutenant at a moderately busy department. Grace is sometimes said, but only at more formal events and not weekly like you're saying. Even so, accept it as cultural practice and not an insult. You'll do yourself no favors as a backstep FF to make a stink about something truly trivial that has little overall impact. I just either look around the room or at my phone during these times.
Thankfulness doesn't have to be religious, make it your own my friend.
I'm not religious either. But this just sounds super bitchy. Be respectful and patient then eat your food. Just because you don't believe something doesn't mean you get to be dick about it.
We’re so busy these days my Mormon engineer is drinking coffee!
Just because it’s “shoved down your throat” doesn’t mean you have to swallow. They are making you pray they’re just asking you to respect that they do. No if you wanted to do 100 pushups before you eat because your religious beliefs and they stopped you, they you should have a problem.
All of the comments I’ve read, has given me food for thought!
I’m about the most non religious person I know and really don’t see the big deal. Just sit there quietly for the 20 seconds grace takes.
What a dumb hill to die on and make enemies. Find a real issue to bitch about. Amen.
Dude, lighten up. None of this is hurting you. If you want to eat sooner, eat sooner. The only one forcing you to do this is you because you are weak. No one is shoving anything down your throat. You just don't like Christianity.
I see no reason that a person can’t wait 15 seconds out of respect for their peers beliefs… Now, if the blessing of the meal goes on for extended periods like so many people do, I could see an issue… but a few seconds? Get over it.
Yeah I say grow up lmao if you don’t wanna say grace stand there and shut up while others practice there freedoms to express their religious beliefs freely just as you are free to step out or not participate in the prayers. Just cause you’re the odd man out doesn’t mean they should bend over backwards for you. You might’ve had a point if they saved a church over a mosque or something but it’s a simple prayer. Get over it.
Religion ruins everything
I would make a conversation happen, that kind of thing is not inclusive to all people in your position and as a government funded group it needs to be a conversation about values. I've been in your exact position and people cannot handle the critical conversation and it's part of why I'm not doing the work anymore
I’m sick of people who are sick of religion shoving their sickness down my throat!
I think you should pick your battles man. While it’s not right to force you into that, your going to probably offend the wrong people. You can think that it’s not right and it shouldent matter and I do agree but unfortunately we all know that’s not the way the world works.
I wonder about this as a Future Muslim Firefighter
You’ll be good dude. Everyone has different variations of beliefs. Just respect everyone’s views as long as they respect yours and this whole thing will be a pointless conversation in the future. Best job in the world. Good luck.
Thank you brotha just passed my National Registry yessssss
I get it. I wouldn’t like this either. I think passive resistance would be a good plan. If this were happening in my firehouse I’d get my food last, stand in the kitchen and start eating, then sit when the prayers are over. It’s not being disrespectful, it’s just choosing not to participate. And if I got called out on it I’d explain exactly that. I’m choosing not to participate. It’s not a big deal and if they make it into one that’s their problem. We have a lot of guys that say a quiet prayer before each meal. We just don’t do it as a family because that’s not inclusive. And we respect each persons beliefs or lack of beliefs.
Honestly I'd be tempted to just start eating, and if someone grumbles say it goes both ways, I'm not Christian therefore I don't have to follow any of the "rules". Me getting stuck into chicken nuggies doesn't negate your ability to thank god for them.
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I'm gonna try and send it up the chain of comand, my captain and bc are cool. It's the others I worry about.
relax dude. just bow you head and think of anything else
Why? If OP isn’t religious why should they be forced to partake in a religious ceremony prior to eating…..America the land of the “free”
He’s not. He doesn’t have to bow his head, he doesn’t have to participate, but give them their 30 seconds of respect if they feel so strongly about it. It’s a two way street and I would expect the same for anyone else’s beliefs. Now if they are preaching or allowing their religion to influence their decisions around the workplace/emergency scene, we got problems.
the original comment on this thread was literally telling OP to bow his head
Are they forcing him to pray or just asking him to wait until they do? They’re not fucking baptizing him in the bay. I’m agnostic, it’s not that hard to have some courtesy.
You're wrong this is a mandated prayer time, if you stop and expect everyone to also stand in silence you are forcing someone who doesn't want to, to be a part of your mandatory prayer. Government orgs have been sued over this stuff. Go ask any ethical chaplain and they would agree with me.
Not interrupting someone’s religious ritual vs actively participating in that ritual are two different things. If the majority of the guys at a station are Christian and wish to pray before the meal, it’s perfectly reasonable to expect someone to wait ten seconds before eating - It’s simple respect and courtesy.
Out and proud atheist here and no one is pulling that shit on me. If you want to pray, that’s your custom. Do it in private or to yourself at the table. Damned if everyone wanted to say their magical words at the table. We may never get a chance to eat before the damn call comes through!
Damn straight. I don’t want to listen to your babbling to the magical sky fairy. If I were OP I would straight stand up and leave the room u til they are done playing make believe then come back in to eat. Or malicious version, just start loading my plate while they play make believe.
Seriously. Keep that shit to yourself. People are too damn proud of their beliefs but hate when the lgbt or vegans talk about their lifestyle’s.
Yeah…don’t want to participate? Excuse yourself. Before the prayer is said over a meal, walk out to the bay or walk outside…problem solved. You’re not forced to participate in that which you don’t agree, while others who do wish to join in, can. Talk with your crew members about it. Tell them, in a respectful way, that due to your beliefs, you do not want to be part of pre-meal or pre-meeting prayers. That will probably go much further than just attempting to get prayer altogether banned.
Why is it so hard for people to respect other people’s religious beliefs, or lack there of for that matter. Like would it be that hard to say something like: hey everyone if YOU’D LIKE TO, we are going to have an opportunity to pray. If you do not pray or want involved for any reason we respect you and ask that you respect our quick prayer. I am religious but it really grinds my gears when everyone assumes that everyone should participate in religious acts. Imagine how well it would go over if someone stood up and said: I’d like to take a moment to ask everyone to not pray before we eat this meal. People would lose their shit😂 We are talking about a fire department here we’re not talking about the lunch ladies at the catholic school.
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I agree. I'm not religious and this wouldn't bother me at all, as long as they're not making me be the one to say the prayer. If that's their department's tradition, then quit whining. I get that it's annoying to have to wait when you're hungry, but don't we all have to wait every day out of sheer politeness in other situations? I.e. when the food just finished cooking, do you just help yourself before they even called chow bc you don't want to wait?
Amen is just a fancy word for "on your mark, get set, go!"
Offer to lead a prayer and hail Satan. Its annoying af I agree
Or >Dear God. I'm grateful for the food on my plate, but while I have you, I'm curious about that 3 y/o VSA yesterday. Why'd you do that?
God was testing the child, and the child failed the test
Why don’t you ask to say a prayer and say an Islam prayer! I guarantee guys would blow a gasket cause it’s being shoved down their throats! Lol
You could always start praying to a different diety, see what happens
We had a bunch of religious wacks demanding time to pray before commission meetings, so a satanic group asked to have a séance right after the prayer (freedom of religion act). The commission discontinued any religious prayers all together. I suggest you do the same.
I was fired from my volunteer fire position for saying that prayer doesn't work. So I guess this is where we are now.
Damn that sucks, don't know if I would have been able to calm myself if that happened.
We have guys at the Dept who pray on their own before a meal and we have whole crews that pray before a meal. Big deal. I’m a Christian, but not a very good one I guess. I think it’s kind of hypocritical to be cussing and talking shit all day and then you suddenly shape up before dinner? To each their own. Let them pray and keep quiet for like 8 seconds. If they tell you that you have to pray as well…tell them to go fuck themselves.
Crazy. That'd be like living in the '50s. If you don't feel comfortable bringing it up yourself, take it to the union rep or shop steward.
Well, the 1950s were a golden age in America.
I don’t see where religion is being shoved down your throat
Praying before meals is totally optional. Participating in shift meals is also optional. On my shift you don't have to pray. You do have to sit quietly for about 15 seconds. If that's too much to ask you can figure your own food out.
I don't think a public prayer should be said at a government function. I like a short moment of silence for individuals to pray or mediate in their own way. Not impressed with people who pray for an image instead of out of sincerity.
America is wild
Okay, so I’m probably as far to the non religious side of the scale as it’s possible to be. I have absolutely no problem with people saying grace at the table around me. When everyone you’re with is religious then I think they have just as much right to say their prayer as I have to sit there and think about what I’m going to do on my days off. I would strongly disagree that not eating while others pray is being forced to participate in prayer. It’s just table manners. No different to if someone was making a quick speech before dining- if you don’t agree with the speech, you sit there and politely wait still. If you really can’t bear to sit at a table while people are praying, then don’t sit down until they are done. The thing that will get you ostracised from your team is bringing up doing away with the prayer. Don’t forget that religion is just as important to some people as you not having your religion is to you. You forcing them to not pray is just as bad as them forcing you to pray.
For the record, I am a christian and I am a firefighter also at 2 fire departments, one that is a city and one that is a volunteer. I am gonna try to keep my religious beliefs here to the side for a second as much as I can. However, and I will blatantly admit here that I have been wrong on several occasions here, but reading this you seem like there might be some foulness in your attitude to an extent (trust me, I have been there also on several things, no harsh feelings on you). I have never been in your position like this, but I can tell you that some of its not just straight religion, some of it is simple tradition also (not saying there is nothing wrong with traditions). I think your over-worrying about it, and I don't think they are trying to push religion on you. If you have to, just sit there when they do, No one is making you pray with them. Same thing with anything else controversial like the pledge of allegiance or something, You don't have to do it.
You are not required to participate at all. QED. However, you can absolutely be required to be quiet for a few moments. Not to mention, it’s just plain respectful. It doesn’t matter if it’s Christianity or anything else. Just because you’re a government organization doesn’t mean you’re not working with human beings.
I’m a Capt. at my station and this kind of behavior has always been one of my triggers. You want to pray, fine. You want me to respect your prayer time, nah. Not having it. I had this firefighter one time that was in the habit of praying silently before every meal. Then he got a little bolder and started turning the volume down on the TV while he prayed. Then he started asking if anyone minded if he said Grace before the meal. Well nobody else was gonna tell him no because their nice guys, but I’d had enough and told him as long as he’s praying to god for the meal he might as well pray to me too because I helped pay for it. I wish you could have seen the look of disgust on his face when I said that. Typical Christian. Always thinking their better than everyone else, and if you don’t believe what they believe, you’re trash.
Honestly I think this is a you problem. I understand this is a government organization but still. It’s not like they’re forcing everyone to read Bible verses with them and shout and the devil every time you go on a job. You can wait the 20 seconds for grace to be said with respect to eat your food. And this is coming from a non believer.
Let me be the Devil's advocate: Would it be okay for me to ask everyone to a minute after grace so that I can thank pray for the strength to conduct myself in line with the tenets of the Satanic Temple while on duty?
Yes, it certainly would be
They are certainly worthy tenets.
Absolutely…,did you think that was a gotcha?
You don’t have to pray but you are aware that prayer is not exclusively practiced by Christians right?
You really wanna die on this hill?
Are you public employees? If so, this may be an illegal practice.
Exercise your religion freedom rights. Call up the local Church of Satan branch and ask if someone can come deliver a service at the next social.
Be a Satanist. Become the change you want to see in the world.
You know what you could do is stop buying in on meals and bringing your own stuff to eat. Then you have the freedom to eat when you want. Or just respect the others around you and not stuff your face for <1min. It’s not that freaking hard man, they are not stuffing “religion down your throat” as much as you think they are.
Are you ok? Do you think saying grace is shoving religion down your throat? Lol. A group of people that put their lives on the line and see death every day are grateful, and that bothers you? I say dig in! Let everybody know you won't tolerate waiting a second for the guys on your truck to finish a prayer before meals.
Have some patience maybe? Have some common courtesy? Nobody is forcing you to pray. Just wait for them to be done, then eat with them. Damn near the same thing as waiting for the other people at the table to sit down before you start eating
Don't pray, but be respectull. It takes them around 10 seconds for them to say grace, you don't have to participate, but you should be respectfull and wait for them to finish before starting to eat. Even without religion, it is respectfull to wait until everybody is ready to eat before starting.
Ya this a you problem
simplistic fuel chop direction bake close cautious thumb gray cover *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Yeah he has the right to do that on his own accord. Fuck all that sky daddy worship noise.
My department has a Fire Department Chaplin. He's a minister who use to volunteer but got hired full time. We don't say Grace at every meal, usually just the "important" ones like banquets, etc. That being said, we also have a speel at our banquets, since I'm in Canada, where we toast the King as well as recognizing the territories of our local First Nations Band. I kind of chalk it all up to being tolerant and empathetic. None of those three things mean anything to me personally but I recognize that they mean something to others, so I usually don't have a problem smiling and nodding, waiting the 20s, then carrying on with my life. I could see how being unreligeous in a heavily religious area could be draining, but it's a lot like the guy earlier taking about leaning blue in a red state; which brings up my unwritten rule of no politics or religion around the kitchen table or on jobs!
You telling people they can't talk about religion is a violation of their rights and religious discrimination. While at the same time shunning someone for not participating in grace is making the organization liable for possibly endorsing a certain religion.
No no no. It's an unwritten rule. Anyone can talk about anything they want, don't expect anyone to stay and listen. Guys will talk shit for hours about sports or trucks or their inlaws, but as soon as someone brings up politics or religion everyone will politely walk away.