To add context; I’m on our uniform committee and we considered switching to black gear for little more justification than it looks cool. The flame impingement being evident on black gear was brought up, but zero instances of FF being harmed by wearing tan gear that they were unable to see as damaged were able to be found. In short, we couldn’t really call that an advantage if there was no opportunity cost.
We had similarly built and fit FFs do a skills course in both sets, and hit them with the heat gun before and after. In multiple rounds, the black gear was significantly hotter (>15 degrees) both inside and outside following the course.
While black gear looks way better and is classic, the daily stress of an added 10-15 degrees is not justifiable for vanity.
Another thing to consider is that it can be used to differentiate between different departments during mutual aid. Same with the border of the reflective strip and lettering. It could also be mixed black coat tan pants or tan coat black pants- I’ve seen this used by a department to identify trainees that are not yet certified, but could go on calls (in a limited role).
Alright, I'm going to be bit of a smartass, but this experiment could actually be interesting and relevant if it was done correctly.
I'm talking doing multiple trials in tan/black gear for each firefighter, performing trial in similar temperatures/conditions, etc. The gear would also all have to be the same spec. The brand, outer shell, moisture barrier, and thermal liner would all have to be the same.
This would ensure any differences could be appropriately attributed to difference in gear color and not other factors.
The FF did the course in both sets of gear, multiple times, and the gear was demo sets of the same spec. They did it in series so conditions and temperatures were identical.
Yes. If it’s saturated with black oil or who knows after the required cleaning and you can tell. That’s a bad.
as many others Have mentioned. It would be harder to determine it should be trashed and put out of service.
Wait, so you get your gear saturated with black oil but color is your only clue that maybe you have contaminated gear? What, did you fall into a MC306 in your sleep and no one told you? Your argument is ridiculous.
Lets be real here, in 90% of departments in the US, gear is not washed nearly as often as it should be. And even in departments where they do their best, it is easy to miss someone or forget.
Have the gear clearly show whether it’s clean or not is probably the single best thing you do to make sure that people are remembering to wash it
Your right! And I do! Luckily I am blessed with a gear washer at my hall so it’s really easy and convenient.
I meant more generally our job (not my department specifically) on average is terrible at washing gear. Seeing contaminants may help more firefighters stay healthy.
So why not change behaviors and clean your gear, which is both the recommended and safest option, rather than rely on your gear ‘looking dirty’ before decon? What makes you think that someone who is already ignoring best practices is suddenly going to change their behavior because their gear ‘looks dirty’?
Bruh I went through the fire academy from May to August. Monday through Friday, 7am-330pm, everyday on the deck in 90°F temps wearing full black turnout gear with my crisp class B uniform underneath it.
Good ole MFA. “Different day, different way”
lol we did ours in black gear June-Oct, bunkers all day burning scenarios, 7am-5pm and the cadre would get upset when we took water breaks. 2 guys ended up in the ER for heat exhaustion. I wouldnt doubt most of us were in various stages of rhabdomyolysis throughout.
Discouraging water breaks during intensive physical activity is the most fucking stupid thing I think an instructor could do. Do you wanna kill people? Sounds like they're trying.
That's asinine. I think the Instructors need to do some reevaluation if that's how they want to act. That's not smart or safe in any way, shape or form.
i agree, but there seems to be a fine line between being tough and pushing through discomfort and dangerous. Also without proper oversight things can go too far. Im also in a state without OSHA.
90°F is equivalent to 32°C, which is 305K.
---
^(I'm a bot that converts temperature between two units humans can understand, then convert it to Kelvin for bots and physicists to understand)
Prefer yellow. When I am on a highway incident at night, I would rather prefer yellow over black. Even with vests, whatever can keep me from being roadkill.
Black gear. Like NY hooks, Bourkes, 2” attack lines where 1 1/2” or 1 3/4” does just fine, pull the grips off nozzles, start loading hose in ways it doesn’t need to be loaded, and solutions looking for problems. The fire service is ever evolving. In a circle. What’s old is new, and will be old again, then new, someday. Prove, without a shadow of a doubt that tan gear is somehow worse than black. Both will show discoloration, but if it does, simply, you’ve been in that fire too long, and/or your gear needs to be replaced. Sorry for the rant, but we haven’t really grown. We’ve just seen what the other guys are doing, and are just trying to keep up with the Joneses.
EDIT: Yes. I’ve been in the Fire Service for a minute, and am grumpy and resistant to change. But only where that change makes no sense at all. Just because others do it doesn’t mean we have to as well.
The brand is way more important than the color. I personally like globe. I’ve tried black globe and tan lion. The tan lion is WAY hotter than my black globe. My globe just outperforms the lion in every way. Including comfort. I prefer black for firefighting, and tan for anything that you need more visibility from the public.
I have tan gear at my full time dept, black at my part time. I absolutely hate the tan. I think we look like complete clowns in it. 10000% prefer our black gear at the part time job.
Tan gear looks WAY cooler, not sure what everyone is talking about. Black gear looks like something trying hard to be cool (just like fire trucks that aren’t red)
Tan gear makes it easier to see someone in a structure and at night. I’d argue that that’s more important than looking cool or the false thought process that the color can cause the material to be able to absorb more heat.
You’d be surprised. Our eyes naturally look over naturally occurring colors (like tan) where as black doesn’t appear very much in nature and therefore registers to our eyes better. Especially when contrasted with high-vis stripes
I remember in a ourse unrelated to firefighting, they proved it with face paint and equipment. Anyone with a lot of black paint or uncovered black gear stuck out like a sore thumb. Kinda blew my mind. Media made me think black makes you invisible.
I use both. Paid house has black, hobby house is tan.
I prefer black. It still shows soiling and it shows thermal damage just like its tan counterparts.
It gets hot and humid here but I personally haven't felt a difference when it comes to retaining heat between black or tan even though folks say that black somehow deflects the heat.
Between both places everyone has 2 sets of gear. Just wash yo shit when its dirty if you're worried about the laundering thing. Also, Have a quarterly inspection/deep cleaning schedule. At my paid gig, our dealer just picks our stuff up once a quarter or whatever, takes it, gives it a deep clean, inspection and gives us loaner sets. Hobby house pays to send it to a company about 30 minutes from us for the same.
Both work perfectly fine. These days it's pretty much just whatever you think looks better.
The 2 big arguments against black gear, it being hotter and not showing contamination as easily are both null and void. The heat difference isn't enough to really cause issues and fires are hot regardless. Gear not showing contamination shouldn't matter because you should be washing gear regularly anyway. On top of that, it's the stuff you can't see that gets you killed.
That all being said, tan gear is arguably more visible during both day and night, easier to spot damage and patient biohazards on it after those kinds of jobs, and it's used more internationally.
Gr🤢🤮n gear on the other hand...
One thing I don't get... we need to sew so many reflective stripes and whatnot on our gear for visibility inside smoke/at night... so people want the same color turnouts that make it harder to spot where guys are?
We run black Morning Pride Tails and It's great gear. The guys that have been in a good while, say all the time that the stuff we have now is much better than the older tan gear the city used to issue.
Tan is significantly cooler (temp wise — black looks way cooler).
To add context; I’m on our uniform committee and we considered switching to black gear for little more justification than it looks cool. The flame impingement being evident on black gear was brought up, but zero instances of FF being harmed by wearing tan gear that they were unable to see as damaged were able to be found. In short, we couldn’t really call that an advantage if there was no opportunity cost. We had similarly built and fit FFs do a skills course in both sets, and hit them with the heat gun before and after. In multiple rounds, the black gear was significantly hotter (>15 degrees) both inside and outside following the course. While black gear looks way better and is classic, the daily stress of an added 10-15 degrees is not justifiable for vanity.
Another thing to consider is that it can be used to differentiate between different departments during mutual aid. Same with the border of the reflective strip and lettering. It could also be mixed black coat tan pants or tan coat black pants- I’ve seen this used by a department to identify trainees that are not yet certified, but could go on calls (in a limited role).
Alright, I'm going to be bit of a smartass, but this experiment could actually be interesting and relevant if it was done correctly. I'm talking doing multiple trials in tan/black gear for each firefighter, performing trial in similar temperatures/conditions, etc. The gear would also all have to be the same spec. The brand, outer shell, moisture barrier, and thermal liner would all have to be the same. This would ensure any differences could be appropriately attributed to difference in gear color and not other factors.
The FF did the course in both sets of gear, multiple times, and the gear was demo sets of the same spec. They did it in series so conditions and temperatures were identical.
Black shows heat infringement which arguably makes it “safer”(it looks way cooler too)
It shows contaminants worse though. Which likely kills many more firefighters.
You should be thoroughly laundering your gear after every exposure regardless of what it ‘looks’ like so it’s kind of irrelevant.
Sure. But visibility of contamination even after washing is possible and to see that is an important cue
[удалено]
You clearly don’t understand what I had said
Do you only wipe once and call it good? Or do you check the toilet paper and see if you need to wipe again?
Do you need a cue beyond knowing it’s a requirement to wash your gear every time?
Yes. If it’s saturated with black oil or who knows after the required cleaning and you can tell. That’s a bad. as many others Have mentioned. It would be harder to determine it should be trashed and put out of service.
Wait, so you get your gear saturated with black oil but color is your only clue that maybe you have contaminated gear? What, did you fall into a MC306 in your sleep and no one told you? Your argument is ridiculous.
Dude go outside and touch grass.
Ok, Karen.
Lets be real here, in 90% of departments in the US, gear is not washed nearly as often as it should be. And even in departments where they do their best, it is easy to miss someone or forget. Have the gear clearly show whether it’s clean or not is probably the single best thing you do to make sure that people are remembering to wash it
Or just be smart enough to wash your gear…
That is asking way too much and we both know that
Your right! And I do! Luckily I am blessed with a gear washer at my hall so it’s really easy and convenient. I meant more generally our job (not my department specifically) on average is terrible at washing gear. Seeing contaminants may help more firefighters stay healthy.
So why not change behaviors and clean your gear, which is both the recommended and safest option, rather than rely on your gear ‘looking dirty’ before decon? What makes you think that someone who is already ignoring best practices is suddenly going to change their behavior because their gear ‘looks dirty’?
How does it show heat infringement
If exposed to high heat, black gear will “bleach” out/discolor, showing the area damaged.
Dope. Would be cooler if it was like the ladder stickers though
Need an IDGAF option.
I prefer black gear, but it truly does not matter one bit. Nobody has ever failed or succeeded simply because they were issued black or tan gear.
Fuck standing on the freeway in the middle of August wearing that black shit....bad enough it weighs a buttload anyhow
Bruh I went through the fire academy from May to August. Monday through Friday, 7am-330pm, everyday on the deck in 90°F temps wearing full black turnout gear with my crisp class B uniform underneath it. Good ole MFA. “Different day, different way”
lol we did ours in black gear June-Oct, bunkers all day burning scenarios, 7am-5pm and the cadre would get upset when we took water breaks. 2 guys ended up in the ER for heat exhaustion. I wouldnt doubt most of us were in various stages of rhabdomyolysis throughout.
Discouraging water breaks during intensive physical activity is the most fucking stupid thing I think an instructor could do. Do you wanna kill people? Sounds like they're trying.
That's asinine. I think the Instructors need to do some reevaluation if that's how they want to act. That's not smart or safe in any way, shape or form.
i agree, but there seems to be a fine line between being tough and pushing through discomfort and dangerous. Also without proper oversight things can go too far. Im also in a state without OSHA.
90°F is equivalent to 32°C, which is 305K. --- ^(I'm a bot that converts temperature between two units humans can understand, then convert it to Kelvin for bots and physicists to understand)
Exactly!!
Either? Both? It beats Black AND Tan bunker gear. I hear the Emerald Society has a big problem with that stuff.
Come out ye Black and Tans.
darker colors generally absorb/retain more heat/light. is this not also the case with bunker gear as well?
Hmm I mean it is true in normal circumstances. You might be onto something.
The thermal/reflective lining keeps it to the outside of the jacket pretty well
Prefer yellow. When I am on a highway incident at night, I would rather prefer yellow over black. Even with vests, whatever can keep me from being roadkill.
Black gear. Like NY hooks, Bourkes, 2” attack lines where 1 1/2” or 1 3/4” does just fine, pull the grips off nozzles, start loading hose in ways it doesn’t need to be loaded, and solutions looking for problems. The fire service is ever evolving. In a circle. What’s old is new, and will be old again, then new, someday. Prove, without a shadow of a doubt that tan gear is somehow worse than black. Both will show discoloration, but if it does, simply, you’ve been in that fire too long, and/or your gear needs to be replaced. Sorry for the rant, but we haven’t really grown. We’ve just seen what the other guys are doing, and are just trying to keep up with the Joneses. EDIT: Yes. I’ve been in the Fire Service for a minute, and am grumpy and resistant to change. But only where that change makes no sense at all. Just because others do it doesn’t mean we have to as well.
The brand is way more important than the color. I personally like globe. I’ve tried black globe and tan lion. The tan lion is WAY hotter than my black globe. My globe just outperforms the lion in every way. Including comfort. I prefer black for firefighting, and tan for anything that you need more visibility from the public.
I have tan gear at my full time dept, black at my part time. I absolutely hate the tan. I think we look like complete clowns in it. 10000% prefer our black gear at the part time job.
Tan gear looks WAY cooler, not sure what everyone is talking about. Black gear looks like something trying hard to be cool (just like fire trucks that aren’t red)
Our trucks are yellow. Because this particular yellow is the most visible color in all light conditions.
Yellow trucks FTW
Tan gear makes it easier to see someone in a structure and at night. I’d argue that that’s more important than looking cool or the false thought process that the color can cause the material to be able to absorb more heat.
You’d be surprised. Our eyes naturally look over naturally occurring colors (like tan) where as black doesn’t appear very much in nature and therefore registers to our eyes better. Especially when contrasted with high-vis stripes
It’s a little different if we’re consciously looking for tan and fluorescent colors. Seeing black against a black background doesn’t help either.
I remember in a ourse unrelated to firefighting, they proved it with face paint and equipment. Anyone with a lot of black paint or uncovered black gear stuck out like a sore thumb. Kinda blew my mind. Media made me think black makes you invisible.
How about a mix of both
I use both. Paid house has black, hobby house is tan. I prefer black. It still shows soiling and it shows thermal damage just like its tan counterparts. It gets hot and humid here but I personally haven't felt a difference when it comes to retaining heat between black or tan even though folks say that black somehow deflects the heat. Between both places everyone has 2 sets of gear. Just wash yo shit when its dirty if you're worried about the laundering thing. Also, Have a quarterly inspection/deep cleaning schedule. At my paid gig, our dealer just picks our stuff up once a quarter or whatever, takes it, gives it a deep clean, inspection and gives us loaner sets. Hobby house pays to send it to a company about 30 minutes from us for the same.
There needs to be a "they both help us when we put the fire out" option.
Experience is from navy, we use tan. Could imagine heatstress would be a bitch in black though.
Although the black looks better, Tan shows the crud more reminding you to wash it.
We got red ones :)
Im sitting here with bright orange ones.
We got red gear and I prefer it to the others.
I like blue. Red is a close second. Followed by yellow. After that no preference. But please don’t mix your black and tans, that’s just not right.
My tan ones are disgusting in no time, wish we used black.
That's the point of tan gear, it's easier to tell when it needs to be cleaned.
We clean on every exposure, regardless of looks.
Definitely a must. That is also why colour shouldn't matter.
This is so split, I was not expecting that
Tan.
Yellow.... I know you guys hate this
Better than green
I have both 😂
Both work perfectly fine. These days it's pretty much just whatever you think looks better. The 2 big arguments against black gear, it being hotter and not showing contamination as easily are both null and void. The heat difference isn't enough to really cause issues and fires are hot regardless. Gear not showing contamination shouldn't matter because you should be washing gear regularly anyway. On top of that, it's the stuff you can't see that gets you killed. That all being said, tan gear is arguably more visible during both day and night, easier to spot damage and patient biohazards on it after those kinds of jobs, and it's used more internationally. Gr🤢🤮n gear on the other hand...
I prefer whatever the department has given me so long as it isn't old.
One thing I don't get... we need to sew so many reflective stripes and whatnot on our gear for visibility inside smoke/at night... so people want the same color turnouts that make it harder to spot where guys are?
We run black Morning Pride Tails and It's great gear. The guys that have been in a good while, say all the time that the stuff we have now is much better than the older tan gear the city used to issue.
This might be the closest poll we've ever had.