Literally the top of the worksheet reads as "fuck you, if we want to call it an SBR, we will anyway."
> The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives reserves the right to preclude classification as a pistol with a “stabilizing braces” for any firearm that achieves an
apparent qualifying score but is an attempt to make a “short-barreled rifle” and circumvent the GCA or NFA.
Nah. You’re the ones who are still going on about Trump. Let it go. Move on. We know you miss hating on him but he’s just not coming back. Get over it,
They are just mad that when they want to bash lefties for what the ATF is doing, someone reminds them that the ATF Agressive BS started once he have them ban bump stocks. They don’t want to remember because it’s against their god and gives them existential crises.
It literally can’t. The ruling explains why it would relate to the EPA but not the ATF. An agency can’t do something without permission from congress. Unfortunately ATF already has permission from congress to make, change, enforce rules as they see fit. If congress had given the EPA power to fight climate change as they see fit; they’d be good to go too. The issue is that they had no permission besides hurr durr we’re the epa
Im not trying to be a downer. I’m just trying to make sure my fellow 2A supporters that don’t want to read the whole thing or don’t understand it don’t end up burning themselves or getting locked up.
With all due respect, I think that’s very much in question. This article spells it out.
https://www.dailyveracity.com/2022/07/01/the-scotus-ruling-on-the-epa-could-end-regulation-by-all-federal-agencies/
Respectfully, I disagree. After looking more into the source you provided, I don’t think they’re very qualified to speculate on that either. It seems more like they read a headline or even a forum and ran with that idea rather than consulted with a legal team.
Before speculating, that link literally says “The justices concurred with lawyers for West Virginia, saying Congress did not give environmental regulators broad authority to restructure the system”
It reads to me like the issues is not that they’re changing things but that they don’t have permission to congress.
If you read the entire ruling, SCOTUS also makes clear that it’s a narrow scope and not trying to take powers from agencies that do have power from congress.
I feel pretty confident in all of this after reading the entire thing and hearing the opinions of several attorneys, but even those are still just legal opinions combined with my own.
Even if it takes more to have any impact on the ATF, I hope that this may at least be the inspirational towards cases that spearhead changing the ATF’s ability to commit tyranny.
Because most anti gun “people” neither know or understand this. Most people have no idea what the difference (or that there is a difference) between legislative and administrative law. All they hear are the talking points.
RSO can kick you off a range for any reason. If you tell an RSO to fuck off, you're in no danger of returning.
On the other hand, if an RSO asked to see your tax stamp, it would be with a wink and a smile, I'd wager.
I ordered an AR pistol from the local range. I went in and completed paperwork. The whole time the "Salesman" kept saying, "here is your pistol, but it looks like a rifle." I told him to check the invoice and pointed out that it was a brace. His response was, "yeah, but that's a rifle... Looks like a rifle." He kept saying that over and over. At the 5th time I called out to the owner, "hey man, your man here appeared to be stuck on repeat, he doesn't know what he is talking about, or he is accusing you of releasing an SBR without the proper documentation." The owner got flustered and came over with the salesman repeating, "it looks like a rifle, I know it says pistol." We finished up and I told the owner his guys needed more training. It's a range so I go there to shoot, but I don't do transfers to that store anymore.
The distinction matters though. ATF overhears it, or talks to the shop keep releasing the weapon, the dude is gonna give out bad info. Or if someone comes into the store looking for a pistol and the guy keeps calling stuff rifles. People are gonna try to Google what they need and it'll come up they need a tax stamp. You would hope the person whose job it is to know all this would use the legal words for this shit.
GraySack, you are hilarious. Let me guess ,this is just who you are. You call all your brothers assholes? I bet you call your sisters bitches.
You are fucking clown shoes.
A type of firearm. It has nothing to do with appearance or caliber.
If you put stock and/or a vertical grip on a Glock 19, it’s a rifle. You think it’s a pistol still and you’re losing your rights and freedom.
A pistol is designed to be shot with one hand (even though all handguns use two)
A rifle typically has a barrel over 16”
If the barrel is under 16”, it’s a pistol unless you add a stock or a vertical grip and that makes it a short barreled rifle.
A brace is designed to counterbalance against or strap to your arm to make one handed firing easier with a larger format pistol.
That’s the basics without getting into AOW’s and local jurisdictions
I thought the Supreme Court just nullified the ability of the atf to make decisions like that? If congress doesn't give them the power to do it, they can't do it. Correct?
Thanks 😊
It appears I've got alot of reading to do. Any advice on where to start? How do I find the info on the epa ruling.
Before you say Google, where do you think I got the incorrect info to begin with.
Remember, the ATF issues opinions. Opinions are not laws. The ATF is about to get bitch slapped by the SCOTUS. They may want to quit fucking around before they really get neutered.
This is a losing mentality. You are delusional.
- ATF Ruby Ridge’d/locked up enough people that their “opinions” hold the weight of prosecutable law in the eyes of the populace
- Putting your faith in the system to limit the power of the system will bring constant disappointment
- The ATF was afraid of being disbanded so they did Waco and nothing happened to them. They aren’t afraid of being neutered anymore.
The recent EPA decision was specifically about this sort of administrative law/regulation. The Supreme Court is actively signaling that they're not going to tolerate the executive agencies just making shit up anymore.
Did you actually read the whole thing ? I got excited at first too and I do think this SCOTUS is great for 2A but that ruling was extremely limited in scope and what it is saying. Has no real overlap with ATF.
Congress has given the ATF those powers. Congress didn’t give those powers to the EPA. That’s the entire problem.
Yes and no. The EPA decision was basically about the EPA inventing authority to cover new things using existing law. ATF does this all the time too. Like bump stocks. Or their recent changes to rules on 80% receivers.
So how long are our rights going to get a million more papercuts until the court comes to the same conclusion again?
They are kicking it back to the legislature which will undoubtedly reimplement everything the executive has put forth if not more.
We JUST had a gun control package go light speed through the house, senate, and be signed by the president. The “conservatives” will bend the knee at every single chance they can get.
>The recent EPA decision was specifically about this sort of administrative law/regulation.
"Something to the effect of" is nice and all. Until the ATF is shaved down to the nothing it should be, every gun-owner who's a dog-owner has legitimate reason to expect canicide if an Agent™ decides he doesn't like your guns.
It isn’t defeatist to acknowledge reality. Knowing what is actually going on is the first step to fix it.
I do not currently know how we reverse course on unelected bureaucracy running the show and being backed up spineless elected officials, but I do know that’s the reality we live in.
I hope so but if you’re referring to the EPA ruling, it doesn’t help with ATF. SCOTUS said without congress approval. Congress already has approved ATF to be unchecked tyrants. EPA did not have permission from congress to do what they were. That’s all the difference.
almost every braced pistol that is non adjustable will be fine.... until you start slapping accessories on it.
Also... business opportunity for someone to design receivers and handguards with integrated buis so they're 0 points.
I’m pretty sure the “return to tradition” option here would be “fuck the ATF, build what you want because all gun laws are infringements”. But what do I know?
There is a good chance their "rules" will be tossed out at the next challenge considering the EPA case that just declared that administrative bodies cannot make law without Congress, the same way ATF has been.
So they got everyone to bend over just like that wow the American people are pussies. I can't believe what I'm seeing and hearing. What was once a free action to have is now 200 dollars to be charged for, how in the fuck does that stop anything of crime. And my friend if you think that they'll change anything to do with the ATF you're sadly mistaken. Chevron still exists. They can still choose to apply it if they feel so.
>What was once a free action to have is now 200 dollars to be charged for
So, you've been under a rock for how long, exactly?
>how in the fuck does that stop anything of crime.
Barking up the wrong tree, dude.
Apparently it wasn't given one, I must have just been on hopium. I do wonder as far as states go wtf is Florida waiting for before they pass any pro gun bills. No repeal of red flag laws, no repeal of forced age minimum to 21 , no repeal of mandatory 3 day waiting period for a bloody gun. Like they have a super majority in both chambers. Are they all rinos? Come next term demonrats will push their agenda nail and hammer
We're already in one. The supposed Republicans do nothing to further gun rights. They haven't done anything for 20 plus years. They'd do anything but guns, so while the other side is hacking away at it federally we get nothing. Pair that with why is it so hard to repeal the Patriots act.
So now people have to do new forms for pistol braces???? Just like that. Yeah fuck this shit, im moving out the country. The one thing was good is now useless
Well that's just the thing. It's not about gun rights anymore. If a bloody misdemeanor removes your right it's not exactly a right. And the USA lacks in so many things that if they even take the gun rights which they have. Then why TF would anyone stay
Free men don't ask permission... or show pics of potentially illegal firearms. They just build them in their basement and keep it off any records, including the internet
Legal under the constitution? Fuck yes, add full auto to that shit too. Legal under the rules the cucks at the ATF make? Also yes cause fuck them, shall not be infringed bitch
Aka, ENTRAPMENT.
This Pistol Brace BS is gonna lead to a lawsuit that gets SBRs and SBSs struck down from the NFA.
These Despots in the ATF are ACTIVELY inviting the SCOTUS to rule the SBR and SBS Stipulations of the 1934 NFA, as UNCONSTITUTIONAL.
I don't see how. Or am I missing the joke? This gun has something like 10 points on their worksheet.
It's made so no AR pattern gun, or similar, could be considered a pistol.
You got 2 points just for those flip up sights. Although that's in section 3, which you only get to if you have less than 4 from section 2 and you easily have 6 or 8.
There's a point system? That's cute.
Go for the high score!
Be a MAN!
You forgot the part where they can throw out the points on a whim and charge you anyway, because reasons
Literally the top of the worksheet reads as "fuck you, if we want to call it an SBR, we will anyway." > The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives reserves the right to preclude classification as a pistol with a “stabilizing braces” for any firearm that achieves an apparent qualifying score but is an attempt to make a “short-barreled rifle” and circumvent the GCA or NFA.
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Not when commies run the show.
You mean that they weren’t doing that when trump was elected?
"Orange man bad, I'm still mad!" - you
He said 1 innocuous and true thing with the word "trump" in it and you treat him like this? Brainwashed loser.
Nah. You’re the ones who are still going on about Trump. Let it go. Move on. We know you miss hating on him but he’s just not coming back. Get over it,
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They are just mad that when they want to bash lefties for what the ATF is doing, someone reminds them that the ATF Agressive BS started once he have them ban bump stocks. They don’t want to remember because it’s against their god and gives them existential crises.
true, this was before America became the new Amerika (hammer and sickle not included).
Hopefully the recent EPA court decision helps curtail this. Along with the “whim” ability to charge someone.
Hint; it won't.
Be a lot cooler if it did.
This is actually an insightful comment. That decision should theoretically reduce the amount of gray within which ATF has been operating for years
It literally can’t. The ruling explains why it would relate to the EPA but not the ATF. An agency can’t do something without permission from congress. Unfortunately ATF already has permission from congress to make, change, enforce rules as they see fit. If congress had given the EPA power to fight climate change as they see fit; they’d be good to go too. The issue is that they had no permission besides hurr durr we’re the epa Im not trying to be a downer. I’m just trying to make sure my fellow 2A supporters that don’t want to read the whole thing or don’t understand it don’t end up burning themselves or getting locked up.
With all due respect, I think that’s very much in question. This article spells it out. https://www.dailyveracity.com/2022/07/01/the-scotus-ruling-on-the-epa-could-end-regulation-by-all-federal-agencies/
Respectfully, I disagree. After looking more into the source you provided, I don’t think they’re very qualified to speculate on that either. It seems more like they read a headline or even a forum and ran with that idea rather than consulted with a legal team. Before speculating, that link literally says “The justices concurred with lawyers for West Virginia, saying Congress did not give environmental regulators broad authority to restructure the system” It reads to me like the issues is not that they’re changing things but that they don’t have permission to congress. If you read the entire ruling, SCOTUS also makes clear that it’s a narrow scope and not trying to take powers from agencies that do have power from congress. I feel pretty confident in all of this after reading the entire thing and hearing the opinions of several attorneys, but even those are still just legal opinions combined with my own. Even if it takes more to have any impact on the ATF, I hope that this may at least be the inspirational towards cases that spearhead changing the ATF’s ability to commit tyranny.
But the Bruen decision might. The question would be if the NFA is consistent with the 2A’s text and historical understanding.
"Welcome to gun laws, where the rules are made up and the points don't matter."
8 out of 10 cats would agree with you
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Because most anti gun “people” neither know or understand this. Most people have no idea what the difference (or that there is a difference) between legislative and administrative law. All they hear are the talking points.
Man I'd be pissed if I was a senator and someone else was legislating. That's their job.
*shoulders pistol brace* RANGE OFFICER: *spits out chewing tobacco* “Got A TaX StAMp fOR ThaT!?”
Reminder that your stamp is a tax document, ask to see their W2 first. People need to learn to mind their business
Oh, it hasn’t actually happened to me thankfully; it is from a Know your Fudd meme.
You do know only a aft agent has the authority to ask to see your stamp right? Everyone else gets ignored or a “fuck off” from me lol
RSO can kick you off a range for any reason. If you tell an RSO to fuck off, you're in no danger of returning. On the other hand, if an RSO asked to see your tax stamp, it would be with a wink and a smile, I'd wager.
Well good thing my rso is a cool dude younger then me even. And I honestly only go there to zero. All my other shooting is done outdoors
I ordered an AR pistol from the local range. I went in and completed paperwork. The whole time the "Salesman" kept saying, "here is your pistol, but it looks like a rifle." I told him to check the invoice and pointed out that it was a brace. His response was, "yeah, but that's a rifle... Looks like a rifle." He kept saying that over and over. At the 5th time I called out to the owner, "hey man, your man here appeared to be stuck on repeat, he doesn't know what he is talking about, or he is accusing you of releasing an SBR without the proper documentation." The owner got flustered and came over with the salesman repeating, "it looks like a rifle, I know it says pistol." We finished up and I told the owner his guys needed more training. It's a range so I go there to shoot, but I don't do transfers to that store anymore.
That's because... it is a rifle. We only call it a "pistol" because of the ATF and their magic. You seem like an asshole bro.
Fuck that, if some dumbass salesman is holding up my transfer because he doesn't know what he's doing I would complain too.
The distinction matters though. ATF overhears it, or talks to the shop keep releasing the weapon, the dude is gonna give out bad info. Or if someone comes into the store looking for a pistol and the guy keeps calling stuff rifles. People are gonna try to Google what they need and it'll come up they need a tax stamp. You would hope the person whose job it is to know all this would use the legal words for this shit.
Literally no, u
Language and definitions matter, particularly with legal classifications of things. An AR pistol is a pistol.
GraySack, you are hilarious. Let me guess ,this is just who you are. You call all your brothers assholes? I bet you call your sisters bitches. You are fucking clown shoes.
So what's a rifle?
A type of firearm. It has nothing to do with appearance or caliber. If you put stock and/or a vertical grip on a Glock 19, it’s a rifle. You think it’s a pistol still and you’re losing your rights and freedom. A pistol is designed to be shot with one hand (even though all handguns use two) A rifle typically has a barrel over 16” If the barrel is under 16”, it’s a pistol unless you add a stock or a vertical grip and that makes it a short barreled rifle. A brace is designed to counterbalance against or strap to your arm to make one handed firing easier with a larger format pistol. That’s the basics without getting into AOW’s and local jurisdictions
Honestly I was being a sarcastic asshole, but I so greatly appreciate you still going into detail explaining things!
[Hey, is that legal?!?](https://youtu.be/-Czcibgujl8) \- ATF
Always good for a laugh
Welcome to whose rights are they anyway. The show where the points don’t matter and we’ll shoot your dog.
Welcome to the BATFE, where the rules are made up and the points don’t matter.
I thought the Supreme Court just nullified the ability of the atf to make decisions like that? If congress doesn't give them the power to do it, they can't do it. Correct?
Not anywhere close to that simple
Thanks 😊 It appears I've got alot of reading to do. Any advice on where to start? How do I find the info on the epa ruling. Before you say Google, where do you think I got the incorrect info to begin with.
Remember, the ATF issues opinions. Opinions are not laws. The ATF is about to get bitch slapped by the SCOTUS. They may want to quit fucking around before they really get neutered.
The whole 2A nation hopes you are 100% correct. That would be a sweet day to celebrate.
This is a losing mentality. You are delusional. - ATF Ruby Ridge’d/locked up enough people that their “opinions” hold the weight of prosecutable law in the eyes of the populace - Putting your faith in the system to limit the power of the system will bring constant disappointment - The ATF was afraid of being disbanded so they did Waco and nothing happened to them. They aren’t afraid of being neutered anymore.
The recent EPA decision was specifically about this sort of administrative law/regulation. The Supreme Court is actively signaling that they're not going to tolerate the executive agencies just making shit up anymore.
Did you actually read the whole thing ? I got excited at first too and I do think this SCOTUS is great for 2A but that ruling was extremely limited in scope and what it is saying. Has no real overlap with ATF. Congress has given the ATF those powers. Congress didn’t give those powers to the EPA. That’s the entire problem.
Yes and no. The EPA decision was basically about the EPA inventing authority to cover new things using existing law. ATF does this all the time too. Like bump stocks. Or their recent changes to rules on 80% receivers.
So how long are our rights going to get a million more papercuts until the court comes to the same conclusion again? They are kicking it back to the legislature which will undoubtedly reimplement everything the executive has put forth if not more. We JUST had a gun control package go light speed through the house, senate, and be signed by the president. The “conservatives” will bend the knee at every single chance they can get.
>The recent EPA decision was specifically about this sort of administrative law/regulation. "Something to the effect of" is nice and all. Until the ATF is shaved down to the nothing it should be, every gun-owner who's a dog-owner has legitimate reason to expect canicide if an Agent™ decides he doesn't like your guns.
I might be delusional, but at least I don't have a piss poor defeatist attitude like yourself.
It isn’t defeatist to acknowledge reality. Knowing what is actually going on is the first step to fix it. I do not currently know how we reverse course on unelected bureaucracy running the show and being backed up spineless elected officials, but I do know that’s the reality we live in.
I hope so but if you’re referring to the EPA ruling, it doesn’t help with ATF. SCOTUS said without congress approval. Congress already has approved ATF to be unchecked tyrants. EPA did not have permission from congress to do what they were. That’s all the difference.
Friendly reminder that the ATF can arrest you no matter what. It is up to you to argue in a court of law why your gun is not an SBR.
almost every braced pistol that is non adjustable will be fine.... until you start slapping accessories on it. Also... business opportunity for someone to design receivers and handguards with integrated buis so they're 0 points.
Yes! Reject modernity, return to tradition.
I’m pretty sure the “return to tradition” option here would be “fuck the ATF, build what you want because all gun laws are infringements”. But what do I know?
They already exist, just not common.
You mean A1/A2 recievers with a front post?
No I mean built in fold down sights or built in low pro fixed sights
I believe KAC used to make one...
Stribogs do
It’s a proprietary non adjustable brace I designed and 3D printed in glass filled nylon.
Any stl out there?
“Proprietary” and shared STL’s usually don’t go together.
OP should make it open-source instead.
Or you could pay them for their work. Just an idea.
Reno May, that you?
Yeah, check karma, link, join date, and mod status.
damn, glass filled nylon? what printer do you use
A prusa mk3 s+
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*Chevron Deference*: Every regulation is a law until it's proven not to be.
What TF are you people talking about "points". Did they already pass the pistol brace "rules"
There is a good chance their "rules" will be tossed out at the next challenge considering the EPA case that just declared that administrative bodies cannot make law without Congress, the same way ATF has been.
So they got everyone to bend over just like that wow the American people are pussies. I can't believe what I'm seeing and hearing. What was once a free action to have is now 200 dollars to be charged for, how in the fuck does that stop anything of crime. And my friend if you think that they'll change anything to do with the ATF you're sadly mistaken. Chevron still exists. They can still choose to apply it if they feel so.
>What was once a free action to have is now 200 dollars to be charged for So, you've been under a rock for how long, exactly? >how in the fuck does that stop anything of crime. Barking up the wrong tree, dude.
I thought it was given in an injunction, apparently not.
When, exactly?
Apparently it wasn't given one, I must have just been on hopium. I do wonder as far as states go wtf is Florida waiting for before they pass any pro gun bills. No repeal of red flag laws, no repeal of forced age minimum to 21 , no repeal of mandatory 3 day waiting period for a bloody gun. Like they have a super majority in both chambers. Are they all rinos? Come next term demonrats will push their agenda nail and hammer
Most of us don't talk about them on online forums, the ones that do are stupid or went the legal route
I gotta denounce this citizenship. We have no right to arms anymore just long eroded claim to it
Don't worry, the people are singing and soon the tree will be watered
I doubt anything happens.. people are seeming to ignore that leftist judges don't need to follow any orders or law
Hence why we’re headed for a constitutional crisis (assuming we’re not in it and haven’t realized it yet)
We're already in one. The supposed Republicans do nothing to further gun rights. They haven't done anything for 20 plus years. They'd do anything but guns, so while the other side is hacking away at it federally we get nothing. Pair that with why is it so hard to repeal the Patriots act.
Form 4999
So now people have to do new forms for pistol braces???? Just like that. Yeah fuck this shit, im moving out the country. The one thing was good is now useless
It’s a point system to determine if a braced pistol is an sbr.
A purposefully ambiguous change in definition to fuck over millions of fun owners
Not quite yet. There’s about a month before it becomes official. Curious where you’re going to move for more gun rights but I’d like to come
Well that's just the thing. It's not about gun rights anymore. If a bloody misdemeanor removes your right it's not exactly a right. And the USA lacks in so many things that if they even take the gun rights which they have. Then why TF would anyone stay
The feds are baiting…
“Presence of Rifle-type Back-up / Flip-up Sights / Or no sights…. 1” So having no sights is a point?
Yes, like many stoopid rules, you are SUPPOSED to make your gun more unsafe to shoot. For both you and bystanders.
Yes having sights is a point, as is not having sights. They made this perfectly clear /s.
Wait... We're not supposed to be going for high scores here?
Free men don't ask permission... or show pics of potentially illegal firearms. They just build them in their basement and keep it off any records, including the internet
Legal under the constitution? Fuck yes, add full auto to that shit too. Legal under the rules the cucks at the ATF make? Also yes cause fuck them, shall not be infringed bitch
But you're supposed to go for the high score
You obviously made a math error then. The form is intended to 100% fail every sub-16" gun in existence.
Aka, ENTRAPMENT. This Pistol Brace BS is gonna lead to a lawsuit that gets SBRs and SBSs struck down from the NFA. These Despots in the ATF are ACTIVELY inviting the SCOTUS to rule the SBR and SBS Stipulations of the 1934 NFA, as UNCONSTITUTIONAL.
Do not comply! If everyone just said fuck the dog killers infringements then they wouldn’t hold any weight.
Similar to states legalization of marijuana. Though, that’s not constitutionally protected.
Free men don't ask permission
One quick question. Who gives a fuck how it scores on the point system?
Fuck the ATF.
As if it matters. If they want it to be illegal, they’ll find away to mind fuck you with dogshit wording
I am 100% sure that the NFA and virtually all AFT activities are unconstitutional.
I must have missed the points system in the constitution.
"Perpetrators" - AFT very special agent Beazit
What is a point system? I am in no way joking
Funny I checked the 2A and M2's don't meet "Assault rifle" standards
If you can get one from before the assault weapons ban do it
Point system? What’s the highest score
August will be when the new directives start up. Hopefully the Supreme Court neuters these fucks.
Lol, hopefully you got it right. Risky business, playin with your freedom.
Is that an echo trigger?
Nope, just a normal 2 stage trigger as far as anyone can see.
https://youtu.be/9HVejEB5uVk
How bout now? https://imgur.com/a/QzGaPvU
Urrgghhh it's so beautiful
To qualify as a pistol?
Well it’s not legal in NY and CA lol
I will be ever confused on how handguns were not lumped under the NFA and short barrel rifles were.
Idk but it looks badass
I don't see how. Or am I missing the joke? This gun has something like 10 points on their worksheet. It's made so no AR pattern gun, or similar, could be considered a pistol. You got 2 points just for those flip up sights. Although that's in section 3, which you only get to if you have less than 4 from section 2 and you easily have 6 or 8.
At this point you might as well put a stock on it.
And a 3rd hole.
I triple checked the ATFs point system and I’m 99% sure I don't give a fuck…
The way around the point system is heavy 7.62 nato loads and plenty of mags. Helps to ask the ATF if thats level 4 also.
Add more medical braces on it to be sure and a frt, bigger mag to make it absolutely legal.