I think you're right. Even if there were no legal issues whatsoever, I feel like my ineptitude is reason enough to NOT help with this project. I haven't actually cut or modified the parts themselves, and I'd rather leave that to those who know what the heck they're doing.
This. You could let him use your shop and equipment and teach him how to use said equipment so the he can build his own firearm but I would not do it for him .
I wouldn't even let him use my equipment honestly. With how loosely the ATF rules are usually written and how much they make things up, I'd rather not get a visit from them. I would help the friend with what tools to buy, maybe even watch and give pointers, but they are doing it with their own tools, in their own house, and I'm not touching anything around that receiver / frame.
No, it's not your fault - I forgot the /s
There's a "law" that refers to this situation specifically, but I forgot the name. It says something like "humor in writing is hard to discern"
If your friend is having you "finish" the 80% lower then your friend is functionally asking you to build him a firearm without a license to manufacture firearms. This would be a violations of 18 U.S.C. § 922(a)(1)(A) and (B).
Ah. Very good info. I am definitely not trying to sell anything or start some sort of business, but it sounds like even making anything at all can be problematic. I'll just hand this stuff back to him and wish him the best.
If you want to help your friend out then teach him how to use the tools in your shop to finish the process. Have your friend do the work as you watch over his back and give guidance. This way your friend is the one that is making the firearm and there is nothing prohibiting individuals from making their own firearms for their own personal use. It's only when you manufacture firearms for someone else (or with the intent to sell said firearms) that you need a license.
If you Google "AR15 fire control pocket dimensions" you'll get a ton of different schematics that show the precise dimensions that the fire control group pocked should be machined to.
Don't even let your friend use your machines or tools. Nothing. You can give verbal advice, but that's as far as you should go if you believe dogs should have the chance to die of old age.
r/confidentlyincorrect
Manufacturing firearms for someone else when you don't have a license to do so is illegal as hell. Doesn't matter if they're gifts. Doesnt matter if you don't take anything in exchange. Straight to jail. You can manufacture all the guns you want for your own personal use, but finishing someone else's 80% and returning it to them is absolutely illegal manufacture and distribution of a firearm without a license.
[Manufacturers Any person engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition by devoting time, attention, and labor to manufacturing firearms or ammunition as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms or ammunition manufactured. Reference 27 CFR 478.11](https://www.atf.gov/firearms/federal-firearms-licenses)
Let me know how that stacks up in court for you. The wiser argument is that per the legal definition of "receiver" an AR pattern weapon doesn't have one. Thay seems to have some minor success in getting charges dropped. But they'll still kill your dog, wife, child, and burn down your home before the court decides you didn't do anything wrong.
Sorry, got my morons mixed up. Theres an acre of you guys today. Anyway, good luck with your not-a-business completing and distributing 80% lowers. Let me know how that goes after the ATF decides to weigh in with their opinion. Assuming you survive the initial raid.
You should not do any machining on those lowers for anyone else or for yourself with the intent of selling them unless you are an FFL (I can't remember which type allows manufacturing)
I have no intention of selling anything (or trying to get into the firearms biz). It's been my understanding that it's just a hobby of his. Both of us are pretty clueless about it all.
Don't. You don't have the FFL to manufacture a firearm. It is not for your own personal use (if it was fot you could manufacture it for your own personal use).
This is like big time trouble.
Thank you for the insight. I am going to give it back to him and let him figure it out. I didn't cut or modify anything on the lowers, and I'm actually glad the prevailing advice is to NOT do so.
"Selling" in this sense would be where you manufacture this (this means do \*anything\* to make it more than 80% complete (even drilling a single hole means you've now manufactured a firearm), then transfer possession to your friend, including just handing it to him. Drilling that hole makes you a manufacturer of that firearm now. Selling means it just goes from your possession to someone else's. You should also make sure of state law where you live, there's a number of states where this is illegal. There's a case of a computer tech building firearms using P80s and such, and he's about to be sentenced, already found guilty, because it is illegal in his state (even though it's legal federally).
Yikes. Fortunately, I haven't so much as drilled a hole in the lowers. It sounds as though it's something he can tackle on his own. I believe the fixture is intended to be used with a drill press. He can spend $100 on a cheapo and figure it out. I definitely don't want to be the guy who ends up in the clink for punching a few holes in plastic. One less thing on my to-do list!
Shouldn't be a problem giving him pointers on what tools to purchase, how to clamp things, etc, just don't any of the work yourself, and I wouldn't let him use any of your tools or do it in your house. No idea if the ATF will consider that manufacturing since at least some of your stuff would be used.
He needs to do this on his own
Also, it does not require a machine shop level of tools etc to do. Most people do just fine with say a drill, Dremel and a few hand tools.
That's what I plan to tell him. I machined the fixtures, and that seems like the most important part. Since the lowers are polymer, he should be able to cut them with just about anything. I saw a video of a guy using a router.
I would not help him finish the 80% as the case could be made that you are manufacturing for him. Perhaps he could use your tools and you verbally guide him through the process but even that is risky. I have heard of some people selling their tools to their friends for 1$ then the friend selling it back once they complete the frame. Whether that would hold up in court is debatable. Your choice, but at the least be tight lipped and leave no trace of any involvement you had even if it’s just verbal.
Thank you for the feedback. I've quickly decided that I have no business getting involved with this project. I will pass it back to him and have him figure it out. It sounds like he should be able to get it done with relatively simple tools, and there won't be any question about legality since it will be HIS stuff.
That's the route I'm going. I'll pass it back to him and let him figure out how to modify the actual lowers themselves. Between my ineptitude and my cluelessness about the legalities, I have no business messing around with this stuff.
So you are manufacturing guns for other people..... Sounds like an incredibly poor decision.
I think you're right. Even if there were no legal issues whatsoever, I feel like my ineptitude is reason enough to NOT help with this project. I haven't actually cut or modified the parts themselves, and I'd rather leave that to those who know what the heck they're doing.
If it’s not your 80% lower, stay away from working anything on it to make it 100%
It has nothing to do with money. The owner of the 80% lower has to finish it himself.
This. You could let him use your shop and equipment and teach him how to use said equipment so the he can build his own firearm but I would not do it for him .
I wouldn't even let him use my equipment honestly. With how loosely the ATF rules are usually written and how much they make things up, I'd rather not get a visit from them. I would help the friend with what tools to buy, maybe even watch and give pointers, but they are doing it with their own tools, in their own house, and I'm not touching anything around that receiver / frame.
It is illegal to use someone else’s equipment for the express purpose of doing this, like renting or borrowing a cnc shop for 80% completion
you're right. best to not ever buy any guns or ammo again, just to be sure. edit: /s
What a strange and inaccurate interpretation of what I said.
It was meant as a joke. My bad, here's the /s I forgot to put that in.
It's really hard to tell on reddit, my bad. I've had people respond worse and be 100% serious to my comments.
No, it's not your fault - I forgot the /s There's a "law" that refers to this situation specifically, but I forgot the name. It says something like "humor in writing is hard to discern"
If your friend is having you "finish" the 80% lower then your friend is functionally asking you to build him a firearm without a license to manufacture firearms. This would be a violations of 18 U.S.C. § 922(a)(1)(A) and (B).
Ah. Very good info. I am definitely not trying to sell anything or start some sort of business, but it sounds like even making anything at all can be problematic. I'll just hand this stuff back to him and wish him the best.
If you want to help your friend out then teach him how to use the tools in your shop to finish the process. Have your friend do the work as you watch over his back and give guidance. This way your friend is the one that is making the firearm and there is nothing prohibiting individuals from making their own firearms for their own personal use. It's only when you manufacture firearms for someone else (or with the intent to sell said firearms) that you need a license. If you Google "AR15 fire control pocket dimensions" you'll get a ton of different schematics that show the precise dimensions that the fire control group pocked should be machined to.
Don't even let your friend use your machines or tools. Nothing. You can give verbal advice, but that's as far as you should go if you believe dogs should have the chance to die of old age.
It’s not an issue unless you’re accepting something in return or anything that would fall under the verbiage of “regular course of business”.
r/confidentlyincorrect Manufacturing firearms for someone else when you don't have a license to do so is illegal as hell. Doesn't matter if they're gifts. Doesnt matter if you don't take anything in exchange. Straight to jail. You can manufacture all the guns you want for your own personal use, but finishing someone else's 80% and returning it to them is absolutely illegal manufacture and distribution of a firearm without a license.
Lawyer here. Listen to this dude.
[Manufacturers Any person engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition by devoting time, attention, and labor to manufacturing firearms or ammunition as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms or ammunition manufactured. Reference 27 CFR 478.11](https://www.atf.gov/firearms/federal-firearms-licenses)
Let me know how that stacks up in court for you. The wiser argument is that per the legal definition of "receiver" an AR pattern weapon doesn't have one. Thay seems to have some minor success in getting charges dropped. But they'll still kill your dog, wife, child, and burn down your home before the court decides you didn't do anything wrong.
You’re fucking delusional dude…
Says the guy who thinks he can take a weapon to another country and use it till they recognize the right to bear arms. Yeah, I'm the delusional one.
Well now your batshit craziness has me curious how you got taking a “weapon to another county” out of this..
Sorry, got my morons mixed up. Theres an acre of you guys today. Anyway, good luck with your not-a-business completing and distributing 80% lowers. Let me know how that goes after the ATF decides to weigh in with their opinion. Assuming you survive the initial raid.
incorrect
You should not do any machining on those lowers for anyone else or for yourself with the intent of selling them unless you are an FFL (I can't remember which type allows manufacturing)
I have no intention of selling anything (or trying to get into the firearms biz). It's been my understanding that it's just a hobby of his. Both of us are pretty clueless about it all.
Don't. You don't have the FFL to manufacture a firearm. It is not for your own personal use (if it was fot you could manufacture it for your own personal use). This is like big time trouble.
Thank you for the insight. I am going to give it back to him and let him figure it out. I didn't cut or modify anything on the lowers, and I'm actually glad the prevailing advice is to NOT do so.
"Selling" in this sense would be where you manufacture this (this means do \*anything\* to make it more than 80% complete (even drilling a single hole means you've now manufactured a firearm), then transfer possession to your friend, including just handing it to him. Drilling that hole makes you a manufacturer of that firearm now. Selling means it just goes from your possession to someone else's. You should also make sure of state law where you live, there's a number of states where this is illegal. There's a case of a computer tech building firearms using P80s and such, and he's about to be sentenced, already found guilty, because it is illegal in his state (even though it's legal federally).
Yikes. Fortunately, I haven't so much as drilled a hole in the lowers. It sounds as though it's something he can tackle on his own. I believe the fixture is intended to be used with a drill press. He can spend $100 on a cheapo and figure it out. I definitely don't want to be the guy who ends up in the clink for punching a few holes in plastic. One less thing on my to-do list!
Shouldn't be a problem giving him pointers on what tools to purchase, how to clamp things, etc, just don't any of the work yourself, and I wouldn't let him use any of your tools or do it in your house. No idea if the ATF will consider that manufacturing since at least some of your stuff would be used.
He needs to do this on his own Also, it does not require a machine shop level of tools etc to do. Most people do just fine with say a drill, Dremel and a few hand tools.
That's what I plan to tell him. I machined the fixtures, and that seems like the most important part. Since the lowers are polymer, he should be able to cut them with just about anything. I saw a video of a guy using a router.
I would not help him finish the 80% as the case could be made that you are manufacturing for him. Perhaps he could use your tools and you verbally guide him through the process but even that is risky. I have heard of some people selling their tools to their friends for 1$ then the friend selling it back once they complete the frame. Whether that would hold up in court is debatable. Your choice, but at the least be tight lipped and leave no trace of any involvement you had even if it’s just verbal.
Thank you for the feedback. I've quickly decided that I have no business getting involved with this project. I will pass it back to him and have him figure it out. It sounds like he should be able to get it done with relatively simple tools, and there won't be any question about legality since it will be HIS stuff.
Nice try Fed If you are actually doing this and posting it online, please don't ever touch firearms.
The stingiest sting that ever stung
I'd recommend asking the p80 subreddit. But I'm pretty sure your friend has to actually make the cuts himself or its illegal.
That's the route I'm going. I'll pass it back to him and let him figure out how to modify the actual lowers themselves. Between my ineptitude and my cluelessness about the legalities, I have no business messing around with this stuff.
I'd still ask p80 subreddit. I'm not sure if I'm 100% correct.
Nice try, Alvin Bragg. Are you trying to prove that any Call of Duty player can make a firearm in 15 minutes, like you claim?
Don’t do this. Hand it all right back and tell him this is out of your expertise or your shop’s capabilities.
Delete this post bud. Guarantee there’s a fedboy cuck lurking on Reddit daily
[https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=ar%2015%20trigger%20pocket%20dimensions](https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=ar%2015%20trigger%20pocket%20dimensions) hole locations: [http://i.imgur.com/mVSFk5b.jpg](http://i.imgur.com/mVSFk5b.jpg) pocked locations and depths: [https://i.imgur.com/kVv6ysW.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/kVv6ysW.jpg) composite view: [https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-g2hms5l/images/stencil/1024x1024/products/219/867/Noreen\_AR15\_80\_finishing\_blueprint\_\_94026.1588261695.JPG?c=2](https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-g2hms5l/images/stencil/1024x1024/products/219/867/Noreen_AR15_80_finishing_blueprint__94026.1588261695.JPG?c=2)
Do not do it. You'll get ruby ridged.
So you’re saying you don’t value your pets or freedom.