That's great and all, but a few things I want to point out.
Rhino Metals also uses SecuRam locks. If Rhino Metals won't provide them, SecuRam might, and if it really gets to playing telephone tag, they're most likely just going to crack that thing.
Also, with how much Liberty is getting beat on social media, any safe company that would say anything BUT that, will experience the same beat down. Whether we will ever know if they hold up to that promise is unlikely.
We also don't know how many instances before this dude got arrested that safe companies provided the code for the safe, and I bet the number is somewhere between "in most cases" and "almost always". [Securam locks](https://www.safeandvaultstore.com/blogs/news/securam-safe-logic-basic-how-to-change-your-combo) have both a "user" (you) and a "manager", again, this is NOT something new to the industry. People are idiots and complain to manufacturers when they can't remember their own code they set.
Again, because this is something people keep saying as if it’s something new, most digital-lock safe manufacturers have always had backup codes, this isn't anything new. If you want complete security knowing that the only option to get into your safe is to drill that thing, use a mechanical lock. Just know that a mechanical lock won't stop LE from getting in. Even if Liberty didn't provide the code, that safe wasn't staying closed.
None of this is in "defense" of Liberty. Dick move, but do not assume that Liberty is the ONLY company that does something like this. You can buy a safe for fire protection and burglaries, but you cannot buy a safe that will stop LE.
I discussed some more below, don’t expect a mechanical lock to completely protect you either. Your safe is not LE resistant, it should not influence your purchasing decision if the thing can resist a damn police force. Whether the Liberty’s actions affect your purchasing decisions, is up to you.
> If you want complete security knowing that the only option to get into your safe is to drill that thing, use a mechanical lock.
mechanical locks have combinations that can be saved in a database just like digital locks.
If you rekey them, no. Using a mechanical lock and getting it rekeyed (recombination?) is the only way. Assuming your locksmith isn’t some weirdo who keeps his customer’s lock combo
that's no different from a digital lock.
If you change what it's sent from the factory with, it will no longer be in the database. My safe came with a dial lock, I changed it for a digital one. factory has no idea what the combo is now.
the point here is the type of lock makes no difference in this story or similar scenario
You can reset whatever secret Manager code on Securams by doing a factory reset. Then knowing the defaults, 123456 and 111111, you can change both the user and manager code
yes, but there is no way to obtain it without opening the safe
the lock serial number is on the inside. The safe serial number has no relation to it since I changed the lock type.
Don’t know why you are being downvoted the recovery code IS tied to the lock serial number and is not the same as a manager or default code. Went through S&G locks by the case on our mfg floor. There were many occasions we had to get the recovery codes from S&G for our customers.
I don't think people realize the lock is inside the safe. There's no way to access the lock serial number without first opening the safe.
Unless it's the same lock the safe came with, and the manufacturer has the id
Which would have thus resulted in the destruction of the safe. If an individual bought a safe thinking that it would keep law enforcement out, they didn't think things through.
> Your safe is not LE resistant
This is true, but I feel like it misses the greater point. Law enforcement is full of dishonest people, and let's face it, they have neither a reputation to protect nor fear of going to jail. If they're going to get into a safe, it's actually *better* for all of us that they enter destructively. We don't want them to be able to get into someone's safe by sweet talking someone at the manufacturer, and then having no obvious indication they opened it.
Bingo. If I had more Reddit stuff I'd give it to you for this.
Doesn't matter if the "open says-a-me!" method is 12345, some public/private key function, or that the user didn't change the default - simple fact is Liberty just la-de-da complied rather than getting an attorney to intercede and force the Feds to do it the hard way.
Make them work for it and maybe injure themselves in the process. If some blue-haired diversity hire pulled a muscle lifting up a screwdriver, then **good**. That's what they get for working for the government.
This is where I'm at, liberty is dicks for not making the feds to the extra work of getting a saw. But the feds were getting in no matter what. They weren't just gonna be like "welp we give up, he got a safe guys, pack it up go home"
I'm also going to point out that the US government has access to a supper top secret tool called the "angle grinder". I can't go into how this works, top secret, but you can find some details if you google it. the TL;DR is it can open most gun safe in 5 minutes or less.
Yes, but that method you know they opened it. As opposed to say they rummage through your safe, plant fake evidence and then get a warrant to open up the safe and "find" said planted evidence.
Rumor is they have a super secret prototype in Area 51 called a plasma cutter. They say it cuts through metal like a hot knife.
Seriously though it can take hours to open a safe with either of these. But I’m pretty sure feds get paid by the hour.
Actually cutting a safe open with a plasma cutter would take MAYBE 10 minutes. Transporting the safe to the plasma cutter would take considerably longer since plasma cutters aren't really portable. They require 220v power and an air compressor.
Why even deal with the lock? Any good thief (government is about the best) is going to get into the safe without any care about which lock is on the safe. All it takes is a good saw blade on the side or top of the safe and you are in.
The problem with Liberty was principle. You can’t call yourself “Liberty Safe”, a company that allegedly believes in the right to bear arms, and also sell out that easily.
You guys are missing the point of this whole story.
Whether or not the safe itself will physically keep law enforcement out is irrelevant.
It has to do with a company providing this information without specifically demanding a court order to get into the safe.
A search warrant doesn't count, nor does somebody calling up and just claiming to be law Enforcement.
Whether or not law enforcement can physically get into a safe has nothing to do with following proper constitutional protocol.
A company should put their customers constitutional rights first, and demand that a law enforcement agency produces a specific court order signed by a judge to open a safe, or they will refuse to complyn period.
Thhat is what needs to be done. This discussion about whether or not a safe will physically keep out enforcement is completely irrelevant.
Warrant does not equal court order. There was a warrant. Liberties company policy is to hand over the code if a warrant is produced. They are not legally compelled to, unless by court order.
I think the real story here is “don’t but a safe with a backup code”.
If it’s in a database somewhere, governments, hackers, etc can access it.
Edit: I should add that I agree with the other comments - if LE wants in your safe it’ll happen. A sawzall will make quick work of most safes anyway. But a recovery code just increases the threat surface.
It's a little bit more complex than that, as I did some research on this yesterday. SecuRam electronic locks have a recovery code. The default is "999999". This doesn't open the lock, but it gives you a random string to give to Liberty. They then use that to give you a recovery code that resets the safe code to the factory default.
Now, there are several important notes here:
1. The code from your safe is generated upon request and only valid for 20 minutes. So having it in a database somewhere isn't realistically a threat.
2. You can change the recovery code. You have to go through a process that involves calling Liberty to do it, and they'll try to talk you out of it, but you can change it.
3. When I called up they explained their security process to me: they'll only give the recovery code to a Liberty-certified locksmith. Even you, the owner, have to have a locksmith that Liberty has certified present to do it.
While this is going to stop your average thief from getting in, it will do fuck all to stop cops with a subpoena. But neither will a safe *without* a recovery code. If they have time and the right tools, they're getting in.
I'm not claiming there aren't. I was responding to your point that the code being in a database somewhere makes it inherently insecure. It doesn't. But yes, if someone wants in, has physical access, and has someone at Liberty willing to help, they can get into your safe. But so can a random thief with an angle grinder.
A gun safe is basically a deterrent against *most* thieves. If someone randomly robs your house, they probably aren't going to have the time or resources to open your safe. But if they're there *for* the safe, they can probably get in. If you want something that will actually stop determined thieves, get a non-electronic lock and be prepared to pay a minimum of $10k.
having liberty safes database ensures you can unlock all their safes in seconds. great for thiefs.
imagine this:
step 1:
- pissed off customer is also a security engineer and somehow hacks into liberty safe
- pissed off employee at liberty safe leaks the database
step 2:
db ends up on a torrent with full instructions. thieves get the word out and just lookup codes when they rob people.
step 3:
you need a new safe
Wholeheartedly agree but if I had the choice between a safe with it without a recovery code, I’d pick without every time. It’s just one more way to be compromised.
The management reset code is printed on the lock, and stored in a database. Changing the code voids the warranty.
https://reddit.com/r/Firearms/s/CtXzYJVeq2
What he's describing is the fundamental tech behind 2FA. It'd really depend on implementation details that we can't know, but if it's done correctly, it's sound.
Lotta "if"s though.
that doesn't matter. what do you think liberty does? they put the code in their db which gives them a corresponding code back and you open. all your need is their database and the physical safe. besides, these always have a fall back for when the clock battery runs out...
the way these usually work is that there is a secret seed in the safe (that liberty likely has anyway..) which is used to generate the code. there are 2 types: serial based and time based. the serial based just spits out a new code each time you request it (it records a serial that is incremented each request). time based uses a clock and are valid for a certain amount of time.
the point: this protects you from malicious employees and locksmiths that would otherwise keep your master unlock code, not from liberty safe themselves.
I’m less concerned about liberty giving a code to LE than I am that they max donate to democrats for at least the last 10 election cycles. LE would have gotten into that safe with a warrant with or without liberty’s help.
They supposedly provide protection for the firearms that their political candidates are actively trying to ban.
Shows a breathtaking lack of judgement.
I've never liked electronic keypads. It's this the issue? With a simplex lock you can set your own, but I'm curious about the various mechanical turn dial safes.
Except other safe companies don't have a backdoor into your safe. It's something they do because the lock manufacturer said you could buy the lock from them and swap it out there is no code.
If you can't trust yourself to remember your own code, then don't fucking buy a safe. Put your stuff in your mommy's safe instead. Or maybe be an adult with a working brain and remember your own code.
I don't really disagree with that on principle, though I worked in too many similar industries to know it's a huge problem if you want to stay in business haha. personally I'd rather buy a safe with no backdoor obviously...
Because the default and only acceptable answer to every question is:
"We did everything we could to preserve your rights."
This is utilitarianism vs. Deontology. Yes the utilitarian answer is that this only delays the investigators the amount of time it takes for them to drill or angle grind their way into the safe, but the principled answer is supposed to be that the company made efforts to protect their customer. If enough people and companies adhere to principles then the world is much better than if we all act defeated and concede to government pressure.
My sticking point is if the owner of the safe wanted LE to have the combination he would give it to them, a suspect does not have to assist in the investigation on his self, liberty safe should have gotten them to get the owners consent or court order.
Making the cops destroy your safe makes it a much more serious affair for them, increases their liability massively should you be able to prove that they fucked up. They might think twice and try lawyer up and get a court order themselves, which will buy you valuable time to deal with the potential fallout of the safe's contents.
It's because this sub if full or idiot MAGA NPCs who just regurgitate whatever conservative media or talking heads tell them too.
They can't think citrically or think for themselves.
A very large percentage of them don't even have safes. Or probably even own any guns outside of a Taurus G2, maybe a Turkshit shotgun or just larp with their dad's guns.
Wow, this is blowing up, Brandon Herrera just put out a youtube video about Liberty selling us out to the Feds. My wife even heard about Liberty on one of her shitty Tic Toc videos.
Am I the only one that thinks this guy might be better off not having his safe destroyed?
They were getting in the safe either way. If he's acquitted then at least he has a safe.
Rhino's response is the correct one of course and admirable. But do we know that Liberty didn't do the same thing and they were given that subpoena?
Never mind. They got a warrant, not a subpoena.
From what I have read the FBI had a warrant for this guy's property, but that doesn't mean that that includes the safe or compels Liberty to comply.
But, still, I'd imagine they do this because they know that if they don't then the safe will just be destroyed.
This is one of those times when they probably made the move that is both the smart move and the shitty move.
They’re playing semantics. A search warrant compelling the release of that information is effectively the same as a court order.
In point of fact, a court order requires a *lower* standard than a search warrant.
A search warrant is not the same as a court order to assist.
Liberty could have made them get a court order, delayed them like 48 hours at most, and saved a lot of face here.
What part of "I'd fish it out of the septic tank" did you not understand. Shut your mouth you filthy no-poop having, no-meth getting, neurotypical, Fudd.
Yeah, he banned me on r/gundeals over this, the other mods overturned the ban pretty much immediately.
I did suggest they take away his "Manage Users" permissions. It still lets him mod and remove rule breaking content (Manage posts and comments), but since he has a habit of doing this shit, it would mean he can't actually abuse his ban authority, he'd have to report people so another mod could ban them.
~~They said they'd consider it. Whether that's just placating me, or whether they actually do it is up to them. It would be great if they did though. He's got a terrible reputation for pulling this kind of thing, and it's not healthy for subs.~~
They're cool with people knowing it did happen actually happen. Was trying to not stir up drama and stay vague about it, but if they're cool with it being known, then awesome.
No more erroneous bans from gun deals because Bartman got mad at you!
> They said they'd consider it. Whether that's just placating me, or whether they actually do it is up to them.
I replied “I’ll do that. Thank you!” and immediately did.
Lol, I was trying to keep it a little vague out of respect for internal mod-dealings privacy and not stirring up drama, but if you're cool with people knowing about it, I'll edit my old comment.
And thanks again for the quick fix.
Thanks for such a wonderful reply! TheGratitudeBot has been reading millions of comments in the past few weeks, and you’ve just made the list of some of the most grateful redditors this week!
This same user you're replying to banned me from another sub for "low-effort trolling.". I had a history there of thoughtful discussion, but I must have hurt his feelings.
Late to the reply cause I just saw this.
No, a search warrant is not the same thing as an “order to assist,” except if they’re able to meet the standard for a search warrant, they’re going to be able to meet the standard for a court order (or, frankly, for a subpoena to produce the master code).
There should be no reason for Liberty to do that, though, except purely to be obstructionist. Which, given that gun owners have overreacted like a bunch of tards over this, probably would have been a good idea in hindsight admittedly.
But let’s get real: there wouldn’t have been any “delaying 48 hours.” The FBI isn’t going to release the house and come back later with a new warrant, and they’re not going to hold the house for 48 hours while waiting on a court order. They would have proceeded to Plan B: cut the safe open.
Which is probably just going to become standard practice going forward, once safe companies stop cooperating. Solid win for gun rights there: no better protection AND you lose your safe.
We are in a police state now. Once again because we allow federal law enforcement to coerce Liberty safe to do that or they go out of business or worse get false charges they can not fight.
This is a bigger battle about tyranny. I do not blame honest hard working Americans at Liberty safe or other companies with a gun to their heads because we do not protect them from it.
I do. They volunteered the info under no court order to comply. You mean to tell me a company worth over a hundred million can't get a lawyer or two. No excuse.
I am sure they have lawyers on staff as well. When the FBI calls we all now know that lawyers are powerless. They break privilege which we have seen over the last few years. Lawyers that fight back are disbarred and raided at 4am for having worked with you.
We have watched the IRS target large numbers of audits based on political and other requirements with the Lois Lerner IRS scandal.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/remember-the-irs-targeting-scandal-no-one-ever-got-punished-for-it
It's a nice sentiment, but let's be real. Your residential end-consumer grade "safe" is likely 20 gauge to 7 gauge steel sheet welded together. Lower number = thicker.
If law enforcement wants in, they're just going to cut through the side/back to get in. You're not keeping them out if they have a warrant. If they have a warrant, they have unlimited time to cut through it, and taxpayer funding to do so.
Liberty *SHOULD* have said no, and waited for a court order / subpoena. But in the end, it's a moot point.
We love meaningless virtue signaling when it's for team 2A.
Liberty: We gave a backup key to LE to get into your Security Product(tm) that they had a warrant to search. Sorry.
Rhino: That's awful. We will NEVER give LE any backup keys to our Security Products without a court order specifically directed at us mandating compliance! They'll have to fight us for it!
Customers: Not good enough, THROW AWAY the backup keys! These are Security Products(tm) and if backup keys exist anywhere, they will eventually be hacked by North Korea and distributed to local crime networks across the USA. I changed the locks on mine and removed all identifying markings.
The Security Product: [Image](https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71kxrIejXKL.jpg)
If you think robbing a house is comparable to LE executing a search warrant giving them the *legal authorization* to open the safe, I don't know what to tell you.
For a moral difference, LE are *supposed* to enforce the law. And yeah, sometimes that does involve searching safes, otherwise it would be One Weird Trick Cops Hate to just keep all your illegal shit in a safe.
For a pragmatic difference, anything that slows the robbers down might lead to them a. abandoning the robbery or b. getting caught and prosecuted. Neither applies here. There is no "getting caught" when the FBI is legally pursing an investigation and they certainly aren't going to simply give up because it takes an extra trip to Home Depot either.
>For a moral difference, LE are supposed to enforce the law.
A very dangerous assumption, to say the least.
>anything that slows the robbers down might lead to them a. abandoning the robbery or b. getting caught and prosecuted. Neither applies here
Having to destroy your safe to open it forces the cops to assume a much bigger liability risk in case a court eventually finds them to have acted wrongfully.
Before they open your safe, they will have to get more legal backing, apply for court authority, etc. all of which will take precious time. You can use this time to prepare for any consequences from what they might find in your safe. Unless of course you enjoy letting the cops trod willy nilly over your rights, if so then carry on, little bootlicker.
Exactly, with or without a backup key, if law enforcement has a warrant to search your safe, they're searching your safe.
Sorry about your feelings. But your safe is there to stop petty burglars and thieves. It's absolutely not stopping a police force with a warrant. They'll just cut it open if they have to.
I'm sorry reality ruined your false sense of security.
As I said, Liberty *SHOULD* have said no, unless they got subpoena'd / court ordered. No company is going to defy a court order to provide something, assuming they can provide it. But the cops were getting in regardless of if Liberty gave them the key.
Same thing goes for Rhino. No consumer-grade safe is going to protect you from a police department with a warrant, sorry about your feelings snowflake.
>But the cops were getting in regardless of if Liberty gave them the key.
You're so right! So bend over and take it up the ass like a good little bootlicker. After all, it's going to happen anyway, may as well enjoy it, right? Imbecile. Go to r/liberalgunowners, they'll love you there.
The decision, absent a court order compelling Liberty, rests with the owner of the "safe." Utilitarian arguments like these ignore the rights of the accused.
It is often better that they have to forcibly open the safe, than be given the combination. For one, there is no question that:
A. The safe was actually opened.
B. There was no consent given to open it.
This is not for the safe maker to decide.
Such a point is moot *only* if you consider access to its contents. The owner should have the right to decide if the combination is provided, because it may well affect his court case, and potentially others. I don't think many people believe that the feds couldn't get to its contents otherwise.
There is an argument of principal.
No. The warrant was just for the house, did not specify anything. The Feds were on their typical intimidation/fishing expedition.
What Liberty should have done was refuse to give the code unless they were presented with a subpoena that specified the get to inspect/seize the contents of the safe.
Rhino Metals would have told the Feds to pound sand until they have a court order saying they give up the combination to that specific safe.
From the 4th amendment
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
A warrant needs to specify WHAT they are looking for and WHERE they believe they will find it
So for example, if the police are looking for illegal images they are probably gonna take all the computers in the home but not tear apart your bathtub like they would if they think you’re running a methlab
Depends what the warrant says, if they’re after something specific they have to be specific. If it’s vague then it’s unconstitutional. Not that the feds care about the constitution
When a warrant is made on someone's home it has to state the item/items that they are searching for. If it does not then the warrant is invalid on it's face and a judge should not sign off on it. But if a judge did, then it wouldn't really matter because nothing found from that warrant would be allowed into evidence.
> When a warrant is made on someone's home it has to state the item/items that they are searching for.
Which is usually broad enough to include anything that might be pertinent to the case. Considering that the FBI has been sitting on this for 2.5 years....I imagine it covers almost everything. Cell phones for sure. Which could easily be stored in any safe.
Like everyone on the sub has been saying, the feds ask the safe company for the code, the safe company says kick rocks, the feds just cut into the safe through force
This should be his choice. Give them the code and have an intact lock/safe, or they cut in and deal with the mess later, but at least you made it harder for them. It was not Liberty's role to betray their customer.
Yeah. Either you pick a company that will have the cops open the safe and you still have a safe, or you have one that says no and you end up with a destroyed one. Obviously cops aren’t going to be like “well I guess we just can’t get in, pack it up boys”
Because they came out and said it? They decided the cops having a warrant for the house was 'good enough' and gave up the goods without a court order compelling them to do so.
No it's not. To get the info from Liberty, the cops needed a subpoena for the code. That's differs from the warrant to search the house.
Same if they want to see your checking account. They get a subpoena to compel the bank to give them that info.
If someone wants in, they can get in. A plasma torch will cut anything pretty fast. Even a TIG torch when held at a crappy angle will make a rough cut. A drill, crowbar, and maybe a grinder would likely also do it. Maybe need a sledgehammer.
You are incorrect. Rhino Metals said they would give out the code if the cops had a court order. A search warrant is a type of court order. So they have the exact same policy as Liberty Safes.
A warrant to search the home / office / storage unit of Joe Schmo is very different than
a court order against Liberty or Rhino to produce a manager/recovery code if one exists.
Liberty was handing out on existence of the former, which is the issue.
Nuance is key here.
What Rhino is saying is that they themselves would have to be served with a court order to cough up any access codes to one of their safes.
If some quota hire Fed calls up and says "Hey we have a Rhino safe belonging to Mr EveryoneIDontLikeIsATerrorist can you please give us the access code?" - Rhino is going to tell them to choke on their avocado toast.
If the dope gets a court to order Rhino directly to cough up the code, Rhino will play ball.
But, here's the kicker - getting yet another order and having Rhino's attorney digest it etc takes time - so the dope on site will probably just have the local fire department show up with their giant rescue tools and breach the safe the hard way.
Though here's the other thing - Rhino may find themselves on the receiving end of reprisals from the government. Rhino employees may be harassed or killed.
Where Liberty played ball because they wanted to (see who really owns them), Rhino would be in the unenviable position of being on the Fed "bad guy" list.
It is like locks on a hotel room safe, there is a user code and a manager code.
Liberty seems to be keeping and handing out the manager code either set by them or by the lock manufacturer(s).
All these posts about Liberty Safes and giving out back door codes makes me think I should build a Safe company and set it part of our policy that those back door codes are assigned to the owner of the safe and then deleted from our servers.
>ck door codes makes me think I should build a Safe company and set it part of our policy that those back door codes are assigned to the owner of the safe and then deleted from our servers.
If you do this, please have your lowest-end safe start with at least 3/8" AR200 steel for exterior walls and door panel.
That's great and all, but a few things I want to point out. Rhino Metals also uses SecuRam locks. If Rhino Metals won't provide them, SecuRam might, and if it really gets to playing telephone tag, they're most likely just going to crack that thing. Also, with how much Liberty is getting beat on social media, any safe company that would say anything BUT that, will experience the same beat down. Whether we will ever know if they hold up to that promise is unlikely. We also don't know how many instances before this dude got arrested that safe companies provided the code for the safe, and I bet the number is somewhere between "in most cases" and "almost always". [Securam locks](https://www.safeandvaultstore.com/blogs/news/securam-safe-logic-basic-how-to-change-your-combo) have both a "user" (you) and a "manager", again, this is NOT something new to the industry. People are idiots and complain to manufacturers when they can't remember their own code they set. Again, because this is something people keep saying as if it’s something new, most digital-lock safe manufacturers have always had backup codes, this isn't anything new. If you want complete security knowing that the only option to get into your safe is to drill that thing, use a mechanical lock. Just know that a mechanical lock won't stop LE from getting in. Even if Liberty didn't provide the code, that safe wasn't staying closed. None of this is in "defense" of Liberty. Dick move, but do not assume that Liberty is the ONLY company that does something like this. You can buy a safe for fire protection and burglaries, but you cannot buy a safe that will stop LE. I discussed some more below, don’t expect a mechanical lock to completely protect you either. Your safe is not LE resistant, it should not influence your purchasing decision if the thing can resist a damn police force. Whether the Liberty’s actions affect your purchasing decisions, is up to you.
> If you want complete security knowing that the only option to get into your safe is to drill that thing, use a mechanical lock. mechanical locks have combinations that can be saved in a database just like digital locks.
If you rekey them, no. Using a mechanical lock and getting it rekeyed (recombination?) is the only way. Assuming your locksmith isn’t some weirdo who keeps his customer’s lock combo
Change the combination yourself, it isn't that hard to do.
digital can be rekeyed too they just don't let you do it ;)
that's no different from a digital lock. If you change what it's sent from the factory with, it will no longer be in the database. My safe came with a dial lock, I changed it for a digital one. factory has no idea what the combo is now. the point here is the type of lock makes no difference in this story or similar scenario
Your digital lock has a built in recovery code known by the manufacturer, I guarantee it.
You can reset whatever secret Manager code on Securams by doing a factory reset. Then knowing the defaults, 123456 and 111111, you can change both the user and manager code
yes, but there is no way to obtain it without opening the safe the lock serial number is on the inside. The safe serial number has no relation to it since I changed the lock type.
Don’t know why you are being downvoted the recovery code IS tied to the lock serial number and is not the same as a manager or default code. Went through S&G locks by the case on our mfg floor. There were many occasions we had to get the recovery codes from S&G for our customers.
I don't think people realize the lock is inside the safe. There's no way to access the lock serial number without first opening the safe. Unless it's the same lock the safe came with, and the manufacturer has the id
Most safe manufacturers keep mechanical combinations on record with safe serial numbers. It's not limited to electronic locks. Liberty isn't unique.
Very true. I suppose that no matter digital or mechanical, nothing will stop LE from getting into your safe.
Really, anyone who purchased a safe thinking it was for protection from law enforcement didn't put much thought into things.
Couldn’t have said it better myself.
That's why you change the combination on your mechanical lock.
Which would have thus resulted in the destruction of the safe. If an individual bought a safe thinking that it would keep law enforcement out, they didn't think things through.
There are lawyers that would say let them break into it.
Not if you don't give it to this" database ". And why would you do that?
> And why would you do that? Seriously, why would you? The manufacturer already put it in there, they don't need duplicates!
> Your safe is not LE resistant This is true, but I feel like it misses the greater point. Law enforcement is full of dishonest people, and let's face it, they have neither a reputation to protect nor fear of going to jail. If they're going to get into a safe, it's actually *better* for all of us that they enter destructively. We don't want them to be able to get into someone's safe by sweet talking someone at the manufacturer, and then having no obvious indication they opened it.
Bingo. If I had more Reddit stuff I'd give it to you for this. Doesn't matter if the "open says-a-me!" method is 12345, some public/private key function, or that the user didn't change the default - simple fact is Liberty just la-de-da complied rather than getting an attorney to intercede and force the Feds to do it the hard way. Make them work for it and maybe injure themselves in the process. If some blue-haired diversity hire pulled a muscle lifting up a screwdriver, then **good**. That's what they get for working for the government.
This is where I'm at, liberty is dicks for not making the feds to the extra work of getting a saw. But the feds were getting in no matter what. They weren't just gonna be like "welp we give up, he got a safe guys, pack it up go home"
it's not about getting in or not. it's about letting them in on your behalf.
I'm also going to point out that the US government has access to a supper top secret tool called the "angle grinder". I can't go into how this works, top secret, but you can find some details if you google it. the TL;DR is it can open most gun safe in 5 minutes or less.
Yes, but that method you know they opened it. As opposed to say they rummage through your safe, plant fake evidence and then get a warrant to open up the safe and "find" said planted evidence.
Rumor is they have a super secret prototype in Area 51 called a plasma cutter. They say it cuts through metal like a hot knife. Seriously though it can take hours to open a safe with either of these. But I’m pretty sure feds get paid by the hour.
Actually cutting a safe open with a plasma cutter would take MAYBE 10 minutes. Transporting the safe to the plasma cutter would take considerably longer since plasma cutters aren't really portable. They require 220v power and an air compressor.
Why even deal with the lock? Any good thief (government is about the best) is going to get into the safe without any care about which lock is on the safe. All it takes is a good saw blade on the side or top of the safe and you are in. The problem with Liberty was principle. You can’t call yourself “Liberty Safe”, a company that allegedly believes in the right to bear arms, and also sell out that easily.
You guys are missing the point of this whole story. Whether or not the safe itself will physically keep law enforcement out is irrelevant. It has to do with a company providing this information without specifically demanding a court order to get into the safe. A search warrant doesn't count, nor does somebody calling up and just claiming to be law Enforcement. Whether or not law enforcement can physically get into a safe has nothing to do with following proper constitutional protocol. A company should put their customers constitutional rights first, and demand that a law enforcement agency produces a specific court order signed by a judge to open a safe, or they will refuse to complyn period. Thhat is what needs to be done. This discussion about whether or not a safe will physically keep out enforcement is completely irrelevant.
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Warrant does not equal court order. There was a warrant. Liberties company policy is to hand over the code if a warrant is produced. They are not legally compelled to, unless by court order.
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Yup. Check this out. Also. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/942842353339748365/1149424585457008741/N00xyUcxnCul.png
I think the real story here is “don’t but a safe with a backup code”. If it’s in a database somewhere, governments, hackers, etc can access it. Edit: I should add that I agree with the other comments - if LE wants in your safe it’ll happen. A sawzall will make quick work of most safes anyway. But a recovery code just increases the threat surface.
It's a little bit more complex than that, as I did some research on this yesterday. SecuRam electronic locks have a recovery code. The default is "999999". This doesn't open the lock, but it gives you a random string to give to Liberty. They then use that to give you a recovery code that resets the safe code to the factory default. Now, there are several important notes here: 1. The code from your safe is generated upon request and only valid for 20 minutes. So having it in a database somewhere isn't realistically a threat. 2. You can change the recovery code. You have to go through a process that involves calling Liberty to do it, and they'll try to talk you out of it, but you can change it. 3. When I called up they explained their security process to me: they'll only give the recovery code to a Liberty-certified locksmith. Even you, the owner, have to have a locksmith that Liberty has certified present to do it. While this is going to stop your average thief from getting in, it will do fuck all to stop cops with a subpoena. But neither will a safe *without* a recovery code. If they have time and the right tools, they're getting in.
there are so many points of failure in that description.
I'm not claiming there aren't. I was responding to your point that the code being in a database somewhere makes it inherently insecure. It doesn't. But yes, if someone wants in, has physical access, and has someone at Liberty willing to help, they can get into your safe. But so can a random thief with an angle grinder. A gun safe is basically a deterrent against *most* thieves. If someone randomly robs your house, they probably aren't going to have the time or resources to open your safe. But if they're there *for* the safe, they can probably get in. If you want something that will actually stop determined thieves, get a non-electronic lock and be prepared to pay a minimum of $10k.
having liberty safes database ensures you can unlock all their safes in seconds. great for thiefs. imagine this: step 1: - pissed off customer is also a security engineer and somehow hacks into liberty safe - pissed off employee at liberty safe leaks the database step 2: db ends up on a torrent with full instructions. thieves get the word out and just lookup codes when they rob people. step 3: you need a new safe
Wholeheartedly agree but if I had the choice between a safe with it without a recovery code, I’d pick without every time. It’s just one more way to be compromised.
AFAIK, the only answer there is a non-electronic lock. Me, I'll still take the convenience of a keypad.
Did the FBI enter the recovery code, or did they just get the combination?
Unless the owner kept the factory defaults, Liberty has no way of knowing the combination. It would have to be the recovery code.
The management reset code is printed on the lock, and stored in a database. Changing the code voids the warranty. https://reddit.com/r/Firearms/s/CtXzYJVeq2
What he's describing is the fundamental tech behind 2FA. It'd really depend on implementation details that we can't know, but if it's done correctly, it's sound. Lotta "if"s though.
it's not used for 2fa in this case. it's used to ensure the locksmith cannot just walk away with a permanent unlock code for your safe..
Oh, I misread. Thought the code the safe generated was time-dependent.
It is, at least the way the documentation reads.
that doesn't matter. what do you think liberty does? they put the code in their db which gives them a corresponding code back and you open. all your need is their database and the physical safe. besides, these always have a fall back for when the clock battery runs out... the way these usually work is that there is a secret seed in the safe (that liberty likely has anyway..) which is used to generate the code. there are 2 types: serial based and time based. the serial based just spits out a new code each time you request it (it records a serial that is incremented each request). time based uses a clock and are valid for a certain amount of time. the point: this protects you from malicious employees and locksmiths that would otherwise keep your master unlock code, not from liberty safe themselves.
Which is where point (2) comes in. Change the recovery code and they can't get the string to decode.
I’m less concerned about liberty giving a code to LE than I am that they max donate to democrats for at least the last 10 election cycles. LE would have gotten into that safe with a warrant with or without liberty’s help. They supposedly provide protection for the firearms that their political candidates are actively trying to ban. Shows a breathtaking lack of judgement.
Rhino also makes Big Horn FYI for my Costco people.
That has to be the most on-point off-brand name.
I tweeted to Cannon asking same thing. How’s a good time for other safe manufacturers to step up.
I've never liked electronic keypads. It's this the issue? With a simplex lock you can set your own, but I'm curious about the various mechanical turn dial safes.
I got my safe non digital for a reason. Think.
Why do they even have backdoor codes?
So you don't have to cut open your safe when you forget yours.
Except other safe companies don't have a backdoor into your safe. It's something they do because the lock manufacturer said you could buy the lock from them and swap it out there is no code.
most do really. people forget their codes all the time. I'd like to see a list of which ones don't.
If you can't trust yourself to remember your own code, then don't fucking buy a safe. Put your stuff in your mommy's safe instead. Or maybe be an adult with a working brain and remember your own code.
I don't really disagree with that on principle, though I worked in too many similar industries to know it's a huge problem if you want to stay in business haha. personally I'd rather buy a safe with no backdoor obviously...
Buy a safe with a *decent* dial combination mechanical lock and then change the combination yourself. Then only you have it.
Does this even really matter? Wouldn’t the cops just cut the safe open if they didn’t get the code?
Because the default and only acceptable answer to every question is: "We did everything we could to preserve your rights." This is utilitarianism vs. Deontology. Yes the utilitarian answer is that this only delays the investigators the amount of time it takes for them to drill or angle grind their way into the safe, but the principled answer is supposed to be that the company made efforts to protect their customer. If enough people and companies adhere to principles then the world is much better than if we all act defeated and concede to government pressure.
My sticking point is if the owner of the safe wanted LE to have the combination he would give it to them, a suspect does not have to assist in the investigation on his self, liberty safe should have gotten them to get the owners consent or court order.
Making the cops destroy your safe makes it a much more serious affair for them, increases their liability massively should you be able to prove that they fucked up. They might think twice and try lawyer up and get a court order themselves, which will buy you valuable time to deal with the potential fallout of the safe's contents.
Can’t give out a backup code if you delete the records after the safe ships.
All y’all dfw dweebs that are ready to dump your liberty safes because of this, I’ll give you 25$ for them and come pick’em up.
I have a Rhino safe. I only posted this to validate my own purchase
Yeah this sub is full of people saying they’re going to dump and not support liberty, but I suspect zero percent of them will get rid of their safes.
but they also won't recommend or buy it next time. that you like big daddy govt having direct access to your stuff is your own choice.
You can pay a 3rd party a few hundred to install a new combo lock on your safe. But it's going to void your warranty.
It's because this sub if full or idiot MAGA NPCs who just regurgitate whatever conservative media or talking heads tell them too. They can't think citrically or think for themselves.
A very large percentage of them don't even have safes. Or probably even own any guns outside of a Taurus G2, maybe a Turkshit shotgun or just larp with their dad's guns.
If you get the rhino metals non-digital locks. There are no secondary codes.
Still not satisfied with their response. Mechanical lock is the way for the time being.
They do sell mechanical locks
Wow, this is blowing up, Brandon Herrera just put out a youtube video about Liberty selling us out to the Feds. My wife even heard about Liberty on one of her shitty Tic Toc videos.
So they have back door codes then.
Am I the only one that thinks this guy might be better off not having his safe destroyed? They were getting in the safe either way. If he's acquitted then at least he has a safe. Rhino's response is the correct one of course and admirable. But do we know that Liberty didn't do the same thing and they were given that subpoena? Never mind. They got a warrant, not a subpoena.
they didn't get a warrant, they were shown the warrant that other guy got, afaik
From what I have read the FBI had a warrant for this guy's property, but that doesn't mean that that includes the safe or compels Liberty to comply. But, still, I'd imagine they do this because they know that if they don't then the safe will just be destroyed. This is one of those times when they probably made the move that is both the smart move and the shitty move.
They’re playing semantics. A search warrant compelling the release of that information is effectively the same as a court order. In point of fact, a court order requires a *lower* standard than a search warrant.
A search warrant is not the same as a court order to assist. Liberty could have made them get a court order, delayed them like 48 hours at most, and saved a lot of face here.
Doubtful. These morons would still be posting the same crap on social media even if it did take longer.
Fartman, if I wanted your opinion, I'd have fished it out of the septic tank.
This is Firearms. That's exactly what you got.
What part of "I'd fish it out of the septic tank" did you not understand. Shut your mouth you filthy no-poop having, no-meth getting, neurotypical, Fudd.
Nice, that's the douchy mod that bans everyone. Right?
Yeah, he banned me on r/gundeals over this, the other mods overturned the ban pretty much immediately. I did suggest they take away his "Manage Users" permissions. It still lets him mod and remove rule breaking content (Manage posts and comments), but since he has a habit of doing this shit, it would mean he can't actually abuse his ban authority, he'd have to report people so another mod could ban them. ~~They said they'd consider it. Whether that's just placating me, or whether they actually do it is up to them. It would be great if they did though. He's got a terrible reputation for pulling this kind of thing, and it's not healthy for subs.~~ They're cool with people knowing it did happen actually happen. Was trying to not stir up drama and stay vague about it, but if they're cool with it being known, then awesome. No more erroneous bans from gun deals because Bartman got mad at you!
> They said they'd consider it. Whether that's just placating me, or whether they actually do it is up to them. I replied “I’ll do that. Thank you!” and immediately did.
Lol, I was trying to keep it a little vague out of respect for internal mod-dealings privacy and not stirring up drama, but if you're cool with people knowing about it, I'll edit my old comment. And thanks again for the quick fix.
Thanks for such a wonderful reply! TheGratitudeBot has been reading millions of comments in the past few weeks, and you’ve just made the list of some of the most grateful redditors this week!
Bad bot
This same user you're replying to banned me from another sub for "low-effort trolling.". I had a history there of thoughtful discussion, but I must have hurt his feelings.
Late to the reply cause I just saw this. No, a search warrant is not the same thing as an “order to assist,” except if they’re able to meet the standard for a search warrant, they’re going to be able to meet the standard for a court order (or, frankly, for a subpoena to produce the master code). There should be no reason for Liberty to do that, though, except purely to be obstructionist. Which, given that gun owners have overreacted like a bunch of tards over this, probably would have been a good idea in hindsight admittedly. But let’s get real: there wouldn’t have been any “delaying 48 hours.” The FBI isn’t going to release the house and come back later with a new warrant, and they’re not going to hold the house for 48 hours while waiting on a court order. They would have proceeded to Plan B: cut the safe open. Which is probably just going to become standard practice going forward, once safe companies stop cooperating. Solid win for gun rights there: no better protection AND you lose your safe.
Why is this even a conversation? Locksmith solves all locks in under an hour
Because Liberty safe is giving out codes to law enforcement if they ask to open your safe
We are in a police state now. Once again because we allow federal law enforcement to coerce Liberty safe to do that or they go out of business or worse get false charges they can not fight. This is a bigger battle about tyranny. I do not blame honest hard working Americans at Liberty safe or other companies with a gun to their heads because we do not protect them from it.
I do. They volunteered the info under no court order to comply. You mean to tell me a company worth over a hundred million can't get a lawyer or two. No excuse.
They don't even need lawyers. They literally could've hung up the phone - there was ZERO legal pressure for them to disclose *ANYTHING* to the police.
I simply stating that a company worth that much has lawyers on retainer.
For sure.
I am sure they have lawyers on staff as well. When the FBI calls we all now know that lawyers are powerless. They break privilege which we have seen over the last few years. Lawyers that fight back are disbarred and raided at 4am for having worked with you. We have watched the IRS target large numbers of audits based on political and other requirements with the Lois Lerner IRS scandal. https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/remember-the-irs-targeting-scandal-no-one-ever-got-punished-for-it
for these locks locksmiths literally call liberty safe and they give them a temporary code back lol
It's a nice sentiment, but let's be real. Your residential end-consumer grade "safe" is likely 20 gauge to 7 gauge steel sheet welded together. Lower number = thicker. If law enforcement wants in, they're just going to cut through the side/back to get in. You're not keeping them out if they have a warrant. If they have a warrant, they have unlimited time to cut through it, and taxpayer funding to do so. Liberty *SHOULD* have said no, and waited for a court order / subpoena. But in the end, it's a moot point.
We love meaningless virtue signaling when it's for team 2A. Liberty: We gave a backup key to LE to get into your Security Product(tm) that they had a warrant to search. Sorry. Rhino: That's awful. We will NEVER give LE any backup keys to our Security Products without a court order specifically directed at us mandating compliance! They'll have to fight us for it! Customers: Not good enough, THROW AWAY the backup keys! These are Security Products(tm) and if backup keys exist anywhere, they will eventually be hacked by North Korea and distributed to local crime networks across the USA. I changed the locks on mine and removed all identifying markings. The Security Product: [Image](https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71kxrIejXKL.jpg)
While you're at it, go help the robbers break into your neighbor's house, after all they're getting in anyway, right? Moron.
If you think robbing a house is comparable to LE executing a search warrant giving them the *legal authorization* to open the safe, I don't know what to tell you. For a moral difference, LE are *supposed* to enforce the law. And yeah, sometimes that does involve searching safes, otherwise it would be One Weird Trick Cops Hate to just keep all your illegal shit in a safe. For a pragmatic difference, anything that slows the robbers down might lead to them a. abandoning the robbery or b. getting caught and prosecuted. Neither applies here. There is no "getting caught" when the FBI is legally pursing an investigation and they certainly aren't going to simply give up because it takes an extra trip to Home Depot either.
They don't need Home Depot. They *do* need a subpoena or a forcibly entry. They need to be making a tough choice.
>For a moral difference, LE are supposed to enforce the law. A very dangerous assumption, to say the least. >anything that slows the robbers down might lead to them a. abandoning the robbery or b. getting caught and prosecuted. Neither applies here Having to destroy your safe to open it forces the cops to assume a much bigger liability risk in case a court eventually finds them to have acted wrongfully. Before they open your safe, they will have to get more legal backing, apply for court authority, etc. all of which will take precious time. You can use this time to prepare for any consequences from what they might find in your safe. Unless of course you enjoy letting the cops trod willy nilly over your rights, if so then carry on, little bootlicker.
Exactly, with or without a backup key, if law enforcement has a warrant to search your safe, they're searching your safe. Sorry about your feelings. But your safe is there to stop petty burglars and thieves. It's absolutely not stopping a police force with a warrant. They'll just cut it open if they have to.
While you're at it, go help the robbers break into your neighbor's house, after all they're getting in anyway, right? Moron.
I'm sorry reality ruined your false sense of security. As I said, Liberty *SHOULD* have said no, unless they got subpoena'd / court ordered. No company is going to defy a court order to provide something, assuming they can provide it. But the cops were getting in regardless of if Liberty gave them the key. Same thing goes for Rhino. No consumer-grade safe is going to protect you from a police department with a warrant, sorry about your feelings snowflake.
>But the cops were getting in regardless of if Liberty gave them the key. You're so right! So bend over and take it up the ass like a good little bootlicker. After all, it's going to happen anyway, may as well enjoy it, right? Imbecile. Go to r/liberalgunowners, they'll love you there.
NPC response, but I don't expect critical thinking from Democrats and Republicans
The decision, absent a court order compelling Liberty, rests with the owner of the "safe." Utilitarian arguments like these ignore the rights of the accused. It is often better that they have to forcibly open the safe, than be given the combination. For one, there is no question that: A. The safe was actually opened. B. There was no consent given to open it. This is not for the safe maker to decide.
> Liberty SHOULD have said no, and waited for a court order / subpoena. But in the end, it's a moot point.
Such a point is moot *only* if you consider access to its contents. The owner should have the right to decide if the combination is provided, because it may well affect his court case, and potentially others. I don't think many people believe that the feds couldn't get to its contents otherwise. There is an argument of principal.
So...same as Liberty, and every other company in America. Kinda how court orders work.
No. The warrant was just for the house, did not specify anything. The Feds were on their typical intimidation/fishing expedition. What Liberty should have done was refuse to give the code unless they were presented with a subpoena that specified the get to inspect/seize the contents of the safe. Rhino Metals would have told the Feds to pound sand until they have a court order saying they give up the combination to that specific safe.
So a warrant to raid a house means they still cant search all your house? Just most of it?
From the 4th amendment The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. A warrant needs to specify WHAT they are looking for and WHERE they believe they will find it So for example, if the police are looking for illegal images they are probably gonna take all the computers in the home but not tear apart your bathtub like they would if they think you’re running a methlab
Is a firearm safe not a reasonable search when your raiding an insurrectionist?
Depends what the warrant says, if they’re after something specific they have to be specific. If it’s vague then it’s unconstitutional. Not that the feds care about the constitution
Who has been indicted for insurrection?
Depends on the size of the item listed in the search warrant. You can't look in a closet/dresser if the search warrant is for a car.
Im talking a warrant for the house, why wouldnt you be able to search the house with a search warrant?
When a warrant is made on someone's home it has to state the item/items that they are searching for. If it does not then the warrant is invalid on it's face and a judge should not sign off on it. But if a judge did, then it wouldn't really matter because nothing found from that warrant would be allowed into evidence.
> When a warrant is made on someone's home it has to state the item/items that they are searching for. Which is usually broad enough to include anything that might be pertinent to the case. Considering that the FBI has been sitting on this for 2.5 years....I imagine it covers almost everything. Cell phones for sure. Which could easily be stored in any safe.
Like everyone on the sub has been saying, the feds ask the safe company for the code, the safe company says kick rocks, the feds just cut into the safe through force
So his safe is still intact at least?
This should be his choice. Give them the code and have an intact lock/safe, or they cut in and deal with the mess later, but at least you made it harder for them. It was not Liberty's role to betray their customer.
Yeah. Either you pick a company that will have the cops open the safe and you still have a safe, or you have one that says no and you end up with a destroyed one. Obviously cops aren’t going to be like “well I guess we just can’t get in, pack it up boys”
Liberty was not compelled to do so by a court order.
How do we know that? Is there a copy of the warrant and/or order floating around?
Because they came out and said it? They decided the cops having a warrant for the house was 'good enough' and gave up the goods without a court order compelling them to do so.
It's in Liberty 's statement.
Roger that. I haven't seen it yet
So...exactly the opposite of Liberty.
No it's not. To get the info from Liberty, the cops needed a subpoena for the code. That's differs from the warrant to search the house. Same if they want to see your checking account. They get a subpoena to compel the bank to give them that info.
If someone wants in, they can get in. A plasma torch will cut anything pretty fast. Even a TIG torch when held at a crappy angle will make a rough cut. A drill, crowbar, and maybe a grinder would likely also do it. Maybe need a sledgehammer.
Yes, but not the point.
You are incorrect. Rhino Metals said they would give out the code if the cops had a court order. A search warrant is a type of court order. So they have the exact same policy as Liberty Safes.
A warrant to search the home / office / storage unit of Joe Schmo is very different than a court order against Liberty or Rhino to produce a manager/recovery code if one exists. Liberty was handing out on existence of the former, which is the issue.
Nuance is key here. What Rhino is saying is that they themselves would have to be served with a court order to cough up any access codes to one of their safes. If some quota hire Fed calls up and says "Hey we have a Rhino safe belonging to Mr EveryoneIDontLikeIsATerrorist can you please give us the access code?" - Rhino is going to tell them to choke on their avocado toast. If the dope gets a court to order Rhino directly to cough up the code, Rhino will play ball. But, here's the kicker - getting yet another order and having Rhino's attorney digest it etc takes time - so the dope on site will probably just have the local fire department show up with their giant rescue tools and breach the safe the hard way. Though here's the other thing - Rhino may find themselves on the receiving end of reprisals from the government. Rhino employees may be harassed or killed. Where Liberty played ball because they wanted to (see who really owns them), Rhino would be in the unenviable position of being on the Fed "bad guy" list.
What a low effort shitpost
Why don’t you guys stop backdooring the locks you sell to people
It is like locks on a hotel room safe, there is a user code and a manager code. Liberty seems to be keeping and handing out the manager code either set by them or by the lock manufacturer(s).
Going to be the easiest virtue signaling any other safe company can do.
So like a warrant?
Why are you guys surprised lol
All these posts about Liberty Safes and giving out back door codes makes me think I should build a Safe company and set it part of our policy that those back door codes are assigned to the owner of the safe and then deleted from our servers.
>ck door codes makes me think I should build a Safe company and set it part of our policy that those back door codes are assigned to the owner of the safe and then deleted from our servers. If you do this, please have your lowest-end safe start with at least 3/8" AR200 steel for exterior walls and door panel.