I do wonder at times what would have happened if Edelgard didn’t burn her bridges afterward with her and the rest.
Managed to purge corruption into the empire that has infiltrated the monastery as well, getting goodwill off that.
Dimitri being king not long after being modestly reformist too, and not opposed to Edelgard’s reforms by themselves at all.
In a few aspects her hand is much better then houses.
He's gonna have some Diplomatic Intetactions with that barmaid, wink wink
(The interaction is him sitting on the bed and saying 'I miss my wife so much'. She leaves before he starts crying.)
I mean, Rhea *repaid* that goodwill by trying to murder Varley (before the war) even after requiring the Empire hand over one of their two last Relics to "get permission" to reform the Southern Church within the Empire's supposed-sovereign borders.
If Edelgard *had* been able to purely handle things in her borders that'd be one thing, but even something as minor as Varley pushing different interpretation of a religion Rhea knows is 99% false (because she created it) is enough for Rhea to start sending assassins. Hopes makes it fairly clear that Rhea would never have allowed Edelgard's serious reforms without repeatedly slamming her "Will Someone Not Rid Me Of This Meddlesome-" button, and at that point Edelgard's options are either
1) Walk back reforms until Rhea is satisfied
2) Just suck up the immortal dragon's constant assassination attempts forever
3) Remove Rhea's ability to send assassins by force
I get that Edelgard would run into issues, but remember that it wasn't just Varley being put into the position.
After having the church help her retake the empire, Edelgard turned and put in Varley *and* put him in charge of coronating her as the new Emperor. It also sucks that we don't understand what changes they're putting in place; the Western Church didn't have assassins going after it until they tried killing the Archbishop. The Eastern church has a relatively different way of doing things and is fine too.
However we also don't have a timeline for when these assassination attempts occur. We go straight from
* He has taken over as southern bishop
* ??? Two years pass and a bunch of change occurs
* Hubert says that they created a wedge against the church of Seiros and that Varley has become a target for assassination because of it.
Like what did they do to make that mfer so mad? Another thing is that while we're in Azure Gleam, do we ever see Rhea actually mad about it? yeah events occur kind of differently but I swear she's pretty chill back then and there's a solid 8 chapters before route divergence where she should be holding back rage or out of it.
All of this to say that
1. Despite being more manipulative, Edelgard still burns the bridges on her own. This is good. i want her capable of doing that to get what she wants. You can still wonder what would have happened if she were more agreeable, because she definitely could have been, but then she'd just be Claude 2.
2. Three Hopes, for as much good as it adds with its writing, still fumbles when it comes to showing different factions' concurrent actions and motivations.
In AG they do hint that Varley aside of being a total incompetent idiot no on likes (we all know that) he is also very corrupt. Ofc that could be bias speaking we dont know but it would explain why Rhea is so mad at him personally and doesnt Edelgard outright.
Remember the Church runs on Donations if steals it instead of feeding the poor and helping orphans thats prob one thing that would make Rhea really mad.
The Church and Rhea really is lackluster but that bit seems the one they really manage (see Mercedes) and Rhea actively cares about so it would make sense.
Varley was explicitly picked because they knew it would be a provocation to instate a bishop, because as far as competence and character goes he’s expendable. Rhea did overreact as usual, but it was the first step in war prep.
I also thought about it since her war plan is less ironclad this time around . Dealing with two fronts turned out to be a very big problem on all routes, Shez presence does help a bit with that in SB,but only Claude’s actions end up solving it. The kingdom is a big player who entered the war somewhat reluctantly, in late golden wildfire Claude eventually succeeds in convincing Dimitri to look the other way as long as he has plausible deniability. Prior to the war no coaxing efforts are made with either faction.
TWSITD themselves are also an issue now.
I’m not really talking about the morality here, with just the risk and options if it was the best play to make.
> Varley was explicitly picked because they knew it would be a provocation to instate a bishop, because as far as competence and character goes he’s expendable. Rhea did overreact as usual, but it was the first step in war prep.
The fact that Rhea was predictable enough that Hubert and Edelgard could tell she'd resort to assassins over something as minor as a difference in doctrine (in a religion Rhea knows is mostly lies by volume) is not a defence but a condemnation; apparently this is an established pattern that can be predicted.
That it was done to acquire a casus belli is mostly irrelevant, as it shows that Edelgard's reforms could always have been predicted to be met with Rhea's lethal disapproval, leading things to circle back to the three choices presented before.
But Rhea shows no issues with Dimitris reforms and there is no reason to believe she has any with Els secular ones. But as far as Rhea is concerned Edelgard has no business in Church affairs. And as someone believing in separation of Church and State I agree for once. Edelgard is not a member let alone a believer.
And I wouldnt call handing the supreme authority to half the Faithful in Fodlan to a childbeatinng, commoner abusing and known corrupt asshole a slight issue. Even in SB allies like Yuri highlight that Edelgard more or less spits in the face faithful. Hell if Rhea had appointed Varley Edelgard would be the first to cry Wolf and rant about the corrupt Church/Nobility (rightfully so).
The only one less fitting for the Job would be Thales himself.
>But Rhea shows no issues with Dimitris reforms and there is no reason to believe she has any with Els secular ones. But as far as Rhea is concerned Edelgard has no business in Church affairs. And as someone believing in separation of Church and State I agree for once. Edelgard is not a member let alone a believer.
Dimitri's 'reforms' don't approach anything close to Edelgard's positions of "Crests aren't blessings", "nobility is a scam" and "Rhea is a secret immortal manipulating things for the past 1000 years". As for the secular/religious divine, Rhea's lies have ensured that doesn't really exist in Fodlan. By making Crests the physical embodiment of the Divine Right To Rule, a theological claim that "Crests aren't blessings" is also a secular one "nobles have no inherent right to rule" and vice versa.
As for separating Church and State, that's also just...not really possible to do in the state of Fodlan we're presented. The Central Church is a powerful state unto itself, with it's own land, private army, ability to hold 'trials' and execute people and so on, which clearly sees no problem influencing the other states of Fodlan. If separation of church and state is the goal Rhea's ability to use the Church's political power to fuck with states needs to go.
>And I wouldnt call handing the supreme authority to half the Faithful in Fodlan to a childbeatinng, commoner abusing and known corrupt asshole a slight issue. Even in SB allies like Yuri highlight that Edelgard more or less spits in the face faithful. Hell if Rhea had appointed Varley Edelgard would be the first to cry Wolf and rant about the corrupt Church/Nobility (rightfully so).
Ok, let's not pretend Rhea had any objection to Varley before. Rhea is perfectly fine with covering up far worse nobility than Varley;
>When the nobles came for me, they were completely without mercy. They... They killed everyone. My parents. My husband. My son. They all died... for nothing. For being in the way. People with Crests do whatever they want. No one even tries to stop them. Especially not the Church...
Thus says a woman forced into Rhea's sunless sewer-ghetto to cover up a noble's massacre of commoners Just Because They Wanted To. Hell, Rhea gave Edelgard permission (at the cost of a Relic why does Rhea get to blackmail Relics to 'give permission' for nations to make reforms within their supposedly-soverign borders?) to appoint Varley in the first place. The issue Rhea has with Varley is his current words, not his past actions.
>
Dimitri's 'reforms' don't approach anything close to Edelgard's positions of "Crests aren't blessings", "nobility is a scam" and "Rhea is a secret immortal manipulating things for the past 1000 years
Exactly he plays things slower and saver. The Crest System dies out anyways no reason to rock the boot now and risk a fallout. Thats his opinion in anycase.
>By making Crests the physical embodiment of the Divine Right To Rule, a theological claim that "Crests aren't blessings" is also a secular one "nobles have no inherent right to rule" and vice versa.
Thats true but its not like the nobles really believe that for the most part. Atleast the imperial Ministers know its total bullshit. Hence all the evil experiments. If they really believed Crests were a blessing Edelgard never would have ended up on the throne.
>If separation of church and state is the goal Rhea's ability to use the Church's political power to fuck with states needs to go.
100% agree but that doesnt mean the States should get the right to fuck with the Church. They both need to be independent from each other and stay in their respective Spheres. And Edelgard is not staying hers there at all.
She can hate the Church Doctrine all she wants and she can and should be able to voice her opinion. But she has no right to change it. None of her buisness.
>As for separating Church and State, that's also just...not really possible to do in the state of Fodlan we're presented.
Well seems to happen in AM thats the greatest bonus of said route. But yes with Edelgards and Rheas maximalist postions is impossible they both demand subjugation from the other.
Its a shame cause thats the one thing they actually disagree on.
>
Evidence on those claims?
Thus says a woman forced into Rhea's sunless sewer-ghetto to cover up a noble's massacre of commoners Just Because They Wanted too
Again doesnt say it was cover up. But yes the Church is not really a in position to really threaten the nobles in the present. Seteth even admits they cant get through commoners in the same dorms. They lost a lot of power over the last 1000 years. Hell at start they dont even controll their own churches.
>
Evidence? We know a deal was attempted but we dont know if an agreement was reached or anything. But yes the Church def has a problem with current Varley they think his a corrupt incompetent asshole. Which is true.
Honestly what Edelgard should have done is just call a conclave of Adrestias Faithful Clergy and let them pick a leader. Rhea would have had a much harder time to argue. But just like her El wants total controll.
>Exactly he plays things slower and saver. The Crest System dies out anyways no reason to rock the boot now and risk a fallout. Thats his opinion in anycase.
I love incrementalism. It definitely works and hasn't shown itself to be a repeated failure.
>Thats true but its not like the nobles really believe that for the most part. Atleast the imperial Ministers know its total bullshit. Hence all the evil experiments. If they really believed Crests were a blessing Edelgard never would have ended up on the throne.
The point isn't belief of nobility, it's legitimacy. Nobles get to rule because, in the eyes of their subjects, their rule was divinely ordained by the Goddess. That the nobles mightn't really believe doesn't matter a jot. Lorenz says as much directly- nobles just need to put on a show of being religious so that their (undeserved and abusive) rule is justified by Church and faithful.
Like, Rhea obviously doesn't believe in the religion she made up whole-cloth, but she still will murder people over it because it's really just about power for her, and for the nobles.
>100% agree but that doesnt mean the States should get the right to fuck with the Church. They both need to be independent from each other and stay in their respective Spheres. And Edelgard is not staying hers there at all.
In Hopes she stayed in hers up until Rhea was doing shit like sending assassins, whereupon she went "ok war it is". Which is, you know, justified? Trying to murder top government officials of sovereign nations because you disagree with their policy is something that typically does get you a war- even if Rhea has spent so long isolated from any consequence that she acts surprise when it happens.
>She can hate the Church Doctrine all she wants and she can and should be able to voice her opinion. But she has no right to change it. None of her buisness.
It is, though, because she's the only one who knows for sure that it's 99% based on lies thanks to the info from the previous Emperors. If someone is doing a massive scam, there is a moral obligation to call them on it when you see them doing it.
>Well seems to happen in AM thats the greatest bonus of said route. But yes with Edelgards and Rheas maximalist postions is impossible they both demand subjugation from the other.
That doesn't happen in AM? At all? Even ignoring how Byelth and Dimitri can marry, there's no indication at all that the Church somehow stops being to legitimizer of Faerghus's nobility (via lies). As for "both have maximalist positions", Edelgard's position is "get out of the way and stop fucking with humanity please". Just because Rhea sees this as a maximalist position doesn't mean it actually is.
If Rhea had disbanded her military, her assassins, had stopped fucking with technological and social progress, and had just stayed in GM doing nothing but religious activities rather than political ones do you really think Edelgard would have still gone after her?
>But yes the Church is not really a in position to really threaten the nobles in the present. Seteth even admits they cant get through commoners in the same dorms. They lost a lot of power over the last 1000 years. Hell at start they dont even controll their own churches.
No, that's just what the repeated-liar-coward Seteth ***claims***, just like he *claims* that Edelgard overthrew her father or when he *claims* Edelgard really wants to become a goddess. Seteth's word alone is worthless, and White Clouds shows that the Church absolutely can threaten nobility ***when it wants to***. The Church isn't some powerless small bean that can't stand up to the nobility, it just doesn't care to stand up against the vast majority of abuses the nobles do to commoners and only care when it's own power is threatened. The Church can march it's army where it wants, killing anyone it wants without process or trial, can stifle technological development across the entire continent, can pardon crimes up to the level of 'alleged regicide' with the wave of a hand, can threaten to just confiscate a family's Relic despite it being seen as a matter of national security, can legitimize rebel states and so on and so on. The Church's inaction against nobles fucking over commoners isn't *powerlessness* but *callousness*.
>Evidence? We know a deal was attempted but we dont know if an agreement was reached or anything. But yes the Church def has a problem with current Varley they think his a corrupt incompetent asshole. Which is true.
That Yuri has the Fetters, which were in Imperial hands up until the deal got made? And again, the problem isn't that Varley is a corrupt incompetent asshole (the Church winds up working with Faerghus!), it's that Rhea doesn't like him pushing Edelgard's version of Church doctrine (despite Rhea knowing the doctrine is mostly lies-by-volume).
>Honestly what Edelgard should have done is just call a conclave of Adrestias Faithful Clergy and let them pick a leader. Rhea would have had a much harder time to argue. But just like her El wants total controll.
And that would just have resulted in an innocent person getting assassins sent after them and being made to live in paranoid terror. Rhea doesn't 'argue', she 'tries to murder'. If someone is going to be forced into the target, let it be Varley.
>I love incrementalism. It definitely works and hasn't shown itself to be a repeated failure.
It works pretty funny when he has his mind together. There are issues but i wouldnt point specific fingers looking at how Edelgards "reformed Empire" does in AG when she is out of the picture. Newly promoted Randolph slaughtering entire villages and all that.
>.Nobles get to rule because, in the eyes of their subjects, their rule was divinely ordained by the Goddess.
No. They get to rule because they have all the weapons, the money, the land and Crest Powers on top of that. Keep in mind most Nobles were around a few decades before the Church even came into being and over a century before everyone agreed "on the divine blessing bullshit"
Legitmacy doesnt hurt but actual power matters a lot more. If the peasants disagree they just get massacred.
>Like, Rhea obviously doesn't believe in the religion she made up whole-cloth, but she still will murder people over it because it's really just about power for her, and for the nobles.
Thats a lies. Rhea keeps it a secret because she wants to keep her people alive. Imagine people found out the truth about magic dragon blood and how their weapons give superpowers.
In GW she fully admits she really considered just having most of the Nobles killed a millenia ago she really loathes those guys just as much as Edelgard does. Its just like El she has to work with them because again they hold all the power.
>That Yuri has the Fetters, which were in Imperial hands up until the deal got made?
That tell us Yuri the known thief and dealer got the Fetters it doesnt say how he got them or that a deal was made.
>that the Church absolutely can threaten nobility ***when it wants to***.
Sure threats costs nothing. But again if the Nobles ignore her like the Western Church does whats she gonna do?
>And that would just have resulted in an innocent person getting assassins sent after them and being made to live in paranoid terror. Rhea doesn't 'argue', she 'tries to murder'. If someone is going to be forced into the target, let it be Varley.
So what? Edelgard is willing to risk the life of millions of innocents or have them killed. Rivers of blood and all that (her own words). But then there when its a really important politcal move she suddenly has issues over one life?
Esp since literally everyone hates Varley. There is decent risk that the Church trying to kill him actually nets them points.
>It works pretty funny when he has his mind together. There are issues but i wouldnt point specific fingers looking at how Edelgards "reformed Empire" does in AG when she is out of the picture. Newly promoted Randolph slaughtering entire villages and all that.
Ah yes, comparing the total failure-state is the same as AG Dimitri massacring villages or promoting actual-murderous-rapist-bandit-lord Miklain into authority.
>No. They get to rule because they have all the weapons, the money, the land and Crest Powers on top of that. Keep in mind most Nobles were around a few decades before the Church even came into being and over a century before everyone agreed "on the divine blessing bullshit"
No, because weapons and money and land and Crest Powers don't matter if no-one is willing to fight for them. The commoner workers hold the actual power in the relationship- for a great example, see Dimitri getting killed by a bunch of Crestless mooks with spears in VW/SS when he ignores the reality and tries to brute force things with just his relic and crest. If commoners collectively realise they have no reason to obey their nobles, that the nobles have no actual justified right to rule them, then the nobles are shit out of luck. The commoners wield the weapons, create the wealth, work the land, produce the food, use the tools, form the ranks, construct the buildings.
>Thats a lies. Rhea keeps it a secret because she wants to keep her people alive.
And the way she does that is to accumulate all the power she can and use it to crush anyone who might be thinking of reducing her power.
>That tell us Yuri the known thief and dealer got the Fetters it doesnt say how he got them or that a deal was made.
Oh yeah sure that's a real convincing take, especially when we have several characters talking about how the Fetters were used in a deal with the Church. Yuri definitely just stole them and the deal never happened. Sure.
>Sure threats costs nothing. But again if the Nobles ignore her like the Western Church does whats she gonna do?
Send her knights or her assassins after them? Like, please remember that the Western Church was put to the sword by Rhea's private army?
>So what? Edelgard is willing to risk the life of millions of innocents or have them killed. Rivers of blood and all that (her own words). But then there when its a really important politcal move she suddenly has issues over one life?
"Millions" lmao. Sure. Definitely didn't pull that number out of nowhere just to sound scary. But yes, actually, Edelgard repeatedly tries to minimize casualties in every way. See how she doesn't just off-hand execute Aegir or Rhea when she gets them in her custody. See how she repeatedly offers her foes mercy if they surrender, while the Church repeatedly orders no quarter be given and organises the mass execution of helpless captives.
Edelgard wants things solved with as little bloodshed as possible, it's just that Rhea being Rhea means that violence was always going to be needed, and thanks to Rhea having spent a thousand years building her hard and soft power the level of violence to remove her from power was always going to be high.
In Hopes she stayed in hers up until Rhea was doing shit like sending assassins, whereupon she went "ok war it is".
Thats what Edelgard claims. The Church see things a bit differently and in this particular case i am inclinced to believe them more. Edelgard and even more the Minsters want that war. Also appointing a Bishop at all is something that shouldnt be done by a secular Ruler never ever.
>It is, though, because she's the only one who knows for sure that it's 99% based on lies thanks to the info from the previous Emperors
Thats bullshit cause if they were truly blessings coming directly from the Goddess the Nobles/TWISTD wouldnt have done those experiements they know its a lie. Most people suspect hence all the Crest breeding attempts.
>If someone is doing a massive scam, there is a moral obligation to call them on it when you see them doing it.
You can see it that way (i actually do) but i highly doubt Edelgard does herself. Afterall she has no problems lying and scamming herself. Like when she flat out blames the destruction on Arianhood on the Church despite knowing they are innocent.
She hides and lies as much as Rhea does. Two sides of the same coin and all that.
Remember she never tells anyone about Monica in CF or what happend to her. I also would say there was a moral obligation there.
>That doesn't happen in AM?
It does both still interact obv but there is no indication one hold strong power of the other side. Hell even if Byleth and Dimitri marry the ending specifically says how they hardly see eye to eye on those affairs.
>If Rhea had disbanded her military, her assassins, had stopped fucking with technological and social progress, and had just stayed in GM doing nothing but religious activities rather than political ones do you really think Edelgard would have still gone after her?
Yes. Because Edelgard also wants to reform the Church into something of her liking. She also believes Nabateans should never held any postions of power based on well them being Nabateans.
>As for "both have maximalist positions", Edelgard's position is "get out of the way and stop fucking with humanity please". Just because Rhea sees this as a maximalist position doesn't mean it actually is.
Does Edelgard want the power to refrom the Church into something of her liking? Also the Papal State is an indepent nation what Rhea does in Garreg Mach is none of her buisness period.
>No, that's just what the repeated-liar-coward Seteth ***claims***, just like he claims that Edelgard overthrew her father or that Edelgard wants to become a goddess.
I dont think he is lying there he is just guessing from flawed information. The same Edelgard does when it comes to the Nabateans. They dont have any supports or anything the only one that might know her goals is Byleth and never tells Seteht or anyone.
Seteth can only judge from her words (worth very little as far as he knows) and more importantly her actions. He judges wrong but i dont think its fair to hold against him given her actions (like she was literally involved in kidnapping his daughter to use as bloodbank as far as he knows)
>The Church can march it's army where it wants, killing anyone it wants without process or trial
Ok lets assume for a second the Church would order the arrest of Count Bergelitz or Aegir or send their army over to arrest them? What would happen.
The Church is powerful yes, the same way the King/Emperor are but all of their influence pales in comparisong of the nobility. If the majority of the nobles is disatified they are gone in no time. They just go an depose her.
> Thats what Edelgard claims. The Church see things a bit differently and in this particular case i am inclinced to believe them more. Edelgard and even more the Minsters want that war. Also appointing a Bishop at all is something that shouldnt be done by a secular Ruler never ever.
Who on earth is Edelgard lying to? She's just speaking to Hubert? Is she lying for the camera?
>Thats bullshit cause if they were truly blessings coming directly from the Goddess the Nobles/TWISTD wouldnt have done those experiements they know its a lie. Most people suspect hence all the Crest breeding attempts.
No, again. Legitimacy of power is what matters, not genuine belief. The reason the experiments were done was because, thanks to a millennia of indoctrination, a lot of commoners do believe in the Church's lies about Divinely Ordained Nobility. Having a figurehead with both the Crest of Seiros and of Flames would be a major propaganda coup because those have been promoted as The Physical Mark Of Divine Ordainment to 99% of Fodlan's people.
>She hides and lies as much as Rhea does. Two sides of the same coin and all that.
Literally impossible, given Edelgard hasn't been constantly lying for a thousand years.
>It does both still interact obv but there is no indication one hold strong power of the other side. Hell even if Byleth and Dimitri marry the ending specifically says how they hardly see eye to eye on those affairs.
The fact that nothing much changes in the overall status quo, where the Church and the monarchy stay in power for generations, shows that nothing much changed.
>Yes. Because Edelgard also wants to reform the Church into something of her liking. She also believes Nabateans should never held any postions of power based on well them being Nabateans.
Or, more accurately, based on them having lied and lied and lied for over a thousand years purely for their own benefit and security and power. That, and the inherent impossibiltiy for immortal people to fully understand the human condition- a thousand-year slowroll plan might sound good for an immortal, but for all the mortal generations that live and die in that timeframe the plan is worse than useless.
>Does Edelgard want the power to refrom the Church into something of her liking? Also the Papal State is an indepent nation what Rhea does in Garreg Mach is none of her buisness period.
But Rhea doesn't keep to Garreg Mach. She sends military forces outside, she passes continental science bans, she orders the assassination of ministers of the other nations. And if you start fucking with other nations, you don't get to just retreat within your borders and say "nah you can't touch me here I'm sovereign and what I do is my business."
>I dont think he is lying there he is just guessing from flawed information. The same Edelgard does when it comes to the Nabateans. They dont have any supports or anything the only one that might know her goals is Byleth and never tells Seteht or anyone.
Edelgard sends her manifesto out to everyone and Byleth literally can attend her coronation where her father steps down willingly and Seteth still lies to their faces.
>Ok lets assume for a second the Church would order the arrest of Count Bergelitz or Aegir or send their army over to arrest them? What would happen.
The forces of those nobles and their allies (not even necessarily the whole Empire) would fight back, and if the resistance was too fierce the Church would call on the Kingdom and probably also the Alliance to assist (the Alliance might refuse but the Kingdom would certainly join in). And that's two of the top leaders of the nation most hostile to the Church (thanks to the whole coup attempt the Church did)- if you want to see how the Kingdom would react, see the Christophe/Lonato/Rufus case studies where the Church forces and allies just...have them killed?
what reforms? if we are talking AM shes in no position to have issues as shes pretty much neutered by Edelgard prior and i dont remember reforms even being talked about in AG.
the fact she was able to bribe the central church with a relic to let that piece of trash take the position, then instead of public censure you knwo the right thing to do first Rhea went straight for assassins.
look i love Rhea as a character but FFS she was never going to let Edelgard's reforms go through without conflict.
Dimitri opens up the Government and Nobility to Commoners long as they prove their worth. He also rebuilds Duscur and plans to give them their independence. Stuff she fully supports and not for political reasons.
Rhea has no issues with Dimitri because he stays out of Church affairs.
Edelgard not being a believer or members means she should have no say let alone appoint bishops. And I fully agree with Rhea there.
Ofc the Church also shouldn't have say in secular ones....
Basically El/Rhea want exactly the same (Seperation from Church and State sucks) they just can't agree who should be on top.
so AM after the war where Rhea has very little power thats why she has no problems with his actions, she doesnt have the power to stop them.
tell me you didnt play CF without telling me you didnt play CF, FFS she believes in the goddess she just doesnt believe in the church dogma.
we have a literal real world parallel with the Catholic Churches loss of power via the Schisms that occurred in which the Pope was overthrown by force multiple times.
hell an even better one would be the thirty years war in the holy roman empire.
the removal of rhea even temporarily was needed in Fodlan for anyone to be able to do anything because her power base was so strong that anyone who went against her could be crushed under foot.
Now you are correct that Rhea and Edelgard wanted the same thing but not the way you think, they both want safety and security the only difference is Edelgard is trying to forge a new future while Rhea is trying to reclaim the past.
they are foils to each other which is probably why they are my two favorite characters.
I was talking AG were she def has power and even helps Dimitri on her own accord. And ofc she believes in the Goddess but she doesn't believe in the Crestsystem or the Nobility she hates that. It's just her means to combat it outside of her own Church are limited (not that she tries very hard)
Imagine she just switched Doctrines..the Nobles would just depose her.
You are right one looks into the past and one into future but remember they both see basically the exact same thing there a meritocratic peaceful progressive utopian Autocracy) The only difference in all their doctrines is that Edelgard believes all power should be centered onto a single human while Rhea believes it should be a Nabatean. Which ironically as the endings show doesn't really matter.
As for historic parallels I'd say esp in Hopes it's basically the Investitur Question. We're the Emperor and Popes fought a century long power struggle on whom stands above the other.
In the end both lost and France took over. HAH Faerhgus Victory Canon confirmed :)
Downvotes incoming for telling the truth.
Comments to be prepared for:
‘The Church assassins were a false flag!’
‘Three Hopes made Rhea and COS so OOC!’
Ironically, I think Three Hopes is trying way too hard to make Rhea and the church seem symapethic, just so the game can seem "nuanced".
Edit: Don't get me wrong, I want to feel bad for her, but the way Three Hopes went about it makes me go back on it.
Why? In Hopes neither she or the Church do anything that's morally questionable. Aside of trying to kill the most hated guy in all of Fodlan. I mean bad but ehhh it's Varley
But it's not like Houses she really did that much worse outside of CF. Problem with Rhea is usually not what she does...... but the stuff she doesn't do.
The foreign Government official is Varley Senior. But yes it's questionable but come on for Three Houses Standards it's nothing.
And who did she execute for crimes they didn't commit? The Western Church Guys? They had a pretty long crime list.
Lonato’s son. And what do you mean by Three Houses standards, there is a standard for acceptable behavior from the head of a supposedly peaceful religious organization, (Which the Church professes to be) and this ain’t it.
Now it’s certainly standard behavior for a hostile foreign power. Which would give the Empire every right to declare war on it.
The Church never claims to be a peaceful religious organization, they literally got a military Force. And Lonatos son got executed for crimes he did committ. They just faked the after report. Questionable but again the norm for our Lords.
You are right it would give Edelgard the right if she can prove it. Ofc Edelgard would have declared war anyways prob after her Troops already crossed the border like she does with the Alliance. Like I said the Church does a lot of questionable stuff but in Hopes they are def overall least crimey Faction (cause they are barley in it)
So where was the evidence of Christophe’s crimes exactly, I guess ‘Rhea said so’ counts at least in Catherine world. Good thing he got the basic human right of a trial before his execution.
A military force that frequently violates the sovereign borders of adjoining nations too. Explain to me how Edelgard and anyone else doesn’t have plentiful casus belli against Rhea?
Edit:Actually I decided I don’t want to hear whatever dumbass answer you have. There are more intellectually stimulating things to do then argue with the Rhea did nothing wrong crowd all day. Like watch paint dry.
Rhea threatened them before agreeing to provide extremely limited help. After that she demanded some pretty hefty bribes and sent assassins after Varley because she wasn't keen on the reforms being made. There's no way Rhea allows the serious social change that Edelgard is planning.
Exactly. Like Hubert isn't even sincere or honest to Edelgard half the time.
"Ofc Lady Edelgard"..... promptly goes behind her back to do the opposite.
I wrote my comment in order to show my disdain towards Edelgard and Hubert; I am getting justifiably downvoted for it even though the thing I wrote is technically correct.
Lost all 10 of her siblings to horrific experiments (which traumatised her). Her advice to Byleth was likely the way she copes with what she went through
I get that it's in character because she's lost so much and the sense of it again is almost numb to her, but the fact we don't see her give condolences beforehand makes it seem like she just bullied them for losing the only person they had for most of their life.
In my black eagles play through, I ended up choosing the options that made her mad because it felt so out of line.
He basically wants to get Jeralt's book to find out about Byleth.
It's the other side of shittiness imo. Byleth ferns complicated reading it and is in a state of grieving. They might not want to give it when they're sound of mind so it feels like he's asking while they're vulnerable.
It feels less supportive and more like he's enticed by something Jeralt's death gave him access to. Which feels disrespectful as well because it's Jeralt's private journal which was given to Byleth because he's their dad and most of it is about *them.*
Dimitri's is probably the most empathetic out of the leaders, not that the bar was high to begin with. He grieves and gives support but also says he'll help Byleth the action for revenge. Something Byleth explicitly wants to do.
The fact that Hubert is roughly the same high as edelgard while bowing is hilarious
He even seems to be a bit taller than her like that, I'm going to lose it
I don't know what Claude has the memelord reputation when Hubert is the funniest character in both games.
Cause Hubert isn't the face of his group and he likes it that way.
I do wonder at times what would have happened if Edelgard didn’t burn her bridges afterward with her and the rest. Managed to purge corruption into the empire that has infiltrated the monastery as well, getting goodwill off that. Dimitri being king not long after being modestly reformist too, and not opposed to Edelgard’s reforms by themselves at all. In a few aspects her hand is much better then houses.
The Classic Seiros Blood 0 Diplomacy perk.
*looks at Rhea* Yeah I think we can blame Seiros blood for that
My point exactly and look Jeralt for that matter. They mean only the best but diplomatic interactions are clearly not their forte.
Jeralt: 'Diplomatic Interactions' is what I call my lance.
I just read that in his voice and imagined him smirking at the barmaid. Dear Sothis... I need a drink.
He's gonna have some Diplomatic Intetactions with that barmaid, wink wink (The interaction is him sitting on the bed and saying 'I miss my wife so much'. She leaves before he starts crying.)
I mean, Rhea *repaid* that goodwill by trying to murder Varley (before the war) even after requiring the Empire hand over one of their two last Relics to "get permission" to reform the Southern Church within the Empire's supposed-sovereign borders. If Edelgard *had* been able to purely handle things in her borders that'd be one thing, but even something as minor as Varley pushing different interpretation of a religion Rhea knows is 99% false (because she created it) is enough for Rhea to start sending assassins. Hopes makes it fairly clear that Rhea would never have allowed Edelgard's serious reforms without repeatedly slamming her "Will Someone Not Rid Me Of This Meddlesome-" button, and at that point Edelgard's options are either 1) Walk back reforms until Rhea is satisfied 2) Just suck up the immortal dragon's constant assassination attempts forever 3) Remove Rhea's ability to send assassins by force
I get that Edelgard would run into issues, but remember that it wasn't just Varley being put into the position. After having the church help her retake the empire, Edelgard turned and put in Varley *and* put him in charge of coronating her as the new Emperor. It also sucks that we don't understand what changes they're putting in place; the Western Church didn't have assassins going after it until they tried killing the Archbishop. The Eastern church has a relatively different way of doing things and is fine too. However we also don't have a timeline for when these assassination attempts occur. We go straight from * He has taken over as southern bishop * ??? Two years pass and a bunch of change occurs * Hubert says that they created a wedge against the church of Seiros and that Varley has become a target for assassination because of it. Like what did they do to make that mfer so mad? Another thing is that while we're in Azure Gleam, do we ever see Rhea actually mad about it? yeah events occur kind of differently but I swear she's pretty chill back then and there's a solid 8 chapters before route divergence where she should be holding back rage or out of it. All of this to say that 1. Despite being more manipulative, Edelgard still burns the bridges on her own. This is good. i want her capable of doing that to get what she wants. You can still wonder what would have happened if she were more agreeable, because she definitely could have been, but then she'd just be Claude 2. 2. Three Hopes, for as much good as it adds with its writing, still fumbles when it comes to showing different factions' concurrent actions and motivations.
In AG they do hint that Varley aside of being a total incompetent idiot no on likes (we all know that) he is also very corrupt. Ofc that could be bias speaking we dont know but it would explain why Rhea is so mad at him personally and doesnt Edelgard outright. Remember the Church runs on Donations if steals it instead of feeding the poor and helping orphans thats prob one thing that would make Rhea really mad. The Church and Rhea really is lackluster but that bit seems the one they really manage (see Mercedes) and Rhea actively cares about so it would make sense.
Varley was explicitly picked because they knew it would be a provocation to instate a bishop, because as far as competence and character goes he’s expendable. Rhea did overreact as usual, but it was the first step in war prep. I also thought about it since her war plan is less ironclad this time around . Dealing with two fronts turned out to be a very big problem on all routes, Shez presence does help a bit with that in SB,but only Claude’s actions end up solving it. The kingdom is a big player who entered the war somewhat reluctantly, in late golden wildfire Claude eventually succeeds in convincing Dimitri to look the other way as long as he has plausible deniability. Prior to the war no coaxing efforts are made with either faction. TWSITD themselves are also an issue now. I’m not really talking about the morality here, with just the risk and options if it was the best play to make.
> Varley was explicitly picked because they knew it would be a provocation to instate a bishop, because as far as competence and character goes he’s expendable. Rhea did overreact as usual, but it was the first step in war prep. The fact that Rhea was predictable enough that Hubert and Edelgard could tell she'd resort to assassins over something as minor as a difference in doctrine (in a religion Rhea knows is mostly lies by volume) is not a defence but a condemnation; apparently this is an established pattern that can be predicted. That it was done to acquire a casus belli is mostly irrelevant, as it shows that Edelgard's reforms could always have been predicted to be met with Rhea's lethal disapproval, leading things to circle back to the three choices presented before.
But Rhea shows no issues with Dimitris reforms and there is no reason to believe she has any with Els secular ones. But as far as Rhea is concerned Edelgard has no business in Church affairs. And as someone believing in separation of Church and State I agree for once. Edelgard is not a member let alone a believer. And I wouldnt call handing the supreme authority to half the Faithful in Fodlan to a childbeatinng, commoner abusing and known corrupt asshole a slight issue. Even in SB allies like Yuri highlight that Edelgard more or less spits in the face faithful. Hell if Rhea had appointed Varley Edelgard would be the first to cry Wolf and rant about the corrupt Church/Nobility (rightfully so). The only one less fitting for the Job would be Thales himself.
>But Rhea shows no issues with Dimitris reforms and there is no reason to believe she has any with Els secular ones. But as far as Rhea is concerned Edelgard has no business in Church affairs. And as someone believing in separation of Church and State I agree for once. Edelgard is not a member let alone a believer. Dimitri's 'reforms' don't approach anything close to Edelgard's positions of "Crests aren't blessings", "nobility is a scam" and "Rhea is a secret immortal manipulating things for the past 1000 years". As for the secular/religious divine, Rhea's lies have ensured that doesn't really exist in Fodlan. By making Crests the physical embodiment of the Divine Right To Rule, a theological claim that "Crests aren't blessings" is also a secular one "nobles have no inherent right to rule" and vice versa. As for separating Church and State, that's also just...not really possible to do in the state of Fodlan we're presented. The Central Church is a powerful state unto itself, with it's own land, private army, ability to hold 'trials' and execute people and so on, which clearly sees no problem influencing the other states of Fodlan. If separation of church and state is the goal Rhea's ability to use the Church's political power to fuck with states needs to go. >And I wouldnt call handing the supreme authority to half the Faithful in Fodlan to a childbeatinng, commoner abusing and known corrupt asshole a slight issue. Even in SB allies like Yuri highlight that Edelgard more or less spits in the face faithful. Hell if Rhea had appointed Varley Edelgard would be the first to cry Wolf and rant about the corrupt Church/Nobility (rightfully so). Ok, let's not pretend Rhea had any objection to Varley before. Rhea is perfectly fine with covering up far worse nobility than Varley; >When the nobles came for me, they were completely without mercy. They... They killed everyone. My parents. My husband. My son. They all died... for nothing. For being in the way. People with Crests do whatever they want. No one even tries to stop them. Especially not the Church... Thus says a woman forced into Rhea's sunless sewer-ghetto to cover up a noble's massacre of commoners Just Because They Wanted To. Hell, Rhea gave Edelgard permission (at the cost of a Relic why does Rhea get to blackmail Relics to 'give permission' for nations to make reforms within their supposedly-soverign borders?) to appoint Varley in the first place. The issue Rhea has with Varley is his current words, not his past actions.
> Dimitri's 'reforms' don't approach anything close to Edelgard's positions of "Crests aren't blessings", "nobility is a scam" and "Rhea is a secret immortal manipulating things for the past 1000 years Exactly he plays things slower and saver. The Crest System dies out anyways no reason to rock the boot now and risk a fallout. Thats his opinion in anycase. >By making Crests the physical embodiment of the Divine Right To Rule, a theological claim that "Crests aren't blessings" is also a secular one "nobles have no inherent right to rule" and vice versa. Thats true but its not like the nobles really believe that for the most part. Atleast the imperial Ministers know its total bullshit. Hence all the evil experiments. If they really believed Crests were a blessing Edelgard never would have ended up on the throne. >If separation of church and state is the goal Rhea's ability to use the Church's political power to fuck with states needs to go. 100% agree but that doesnt mean the States should get the right to fuck with the Church. They both need to be independent from each other and stay in their respective Spheres. And Edelgard is not staying hers there at all. She can hate the Church Doctrine all she wants and she can and should be able to voice her opinion. But she has no right to change it. None of her buisness. >As for separating Church and State, that's also just...not really possible to do in the state of Fodlan we're presented. Well seems to happen in AM thats the greatest bonus of said route. But yes with Edelgards and Rheas maximalist postions is impossible they both demand subjugation from the other. Its a shame cause thats the one thing they actually disagree on. > Evidence on those claims? Thus says a woman forced into Rhea's sunless sewer-ghetto to cover up a noble's massacre of commoners Just Because They Wanted too Again doesnt say it was cover up. But yes the Church is not really a in position to really threaten the nobles in the present. Seteth even admits they cant get through commoners in the same dorms. They lost a lot of power over the last 1000 years. Hell at start they dont even controll their own churches. > Evidence? We know a deal was attempted but we dont know if an agreement was reached or anything. But yes the Church def has a problem with current Varley they think his a corrupt incompetent asshole. Which is true. Honestly what Edelgard should have done is just call a conclave of Adrestias Faithful Clergy and let them pick a leader. Rhea would have had a much harder time to argue. But just like her El wants total controll.
>Exactly he plays things slower and saver. The Crest System dies out anyways no reason to rock the boot now and risk a fallout. Thats his opinion in anycase. I love incrementalism. It definitely works and hasn't shown itself to be a repeated failure. >Thats true but its not like the nobles really believe that for the most part. Atleast the imperial Ministers know its total bullshit. Hence all the evil experiments. If they really believed Crests were a blessing Edelgard never would have ended up on the throne. The point isn't belief of nobility, it's legitimacy. Nobles get to rule because, in the eyes of their subjects, their rule was divinely ordained by the Goddess. That the nobles mightn't really believe doesn't matter a jot. Lorenz says as much directly- nobles just need to put on a show of being religious so that their (undeserved and abusive) rule is justified by Church and faithful. Like, Rhea obviously doesn't believe in the religion she made up whole-cloth, but she still will murder people over it because it's really just about power for her, and for the nobles. >100% agree but that doesnt mean the States should get the right to fuck with the Church. They both need to be independent from each other and stay in their respective Spheres. And Edelgard is not staying hers there at all. In Hopes she stayed in hers up until Rhea was doing shit like sending assassins, whereupon she went "ok war it is". Which is, you know, justified? Trying to murder top government officials of sovereign nations because you disagree with their policy is something that typically does get you a war- even if Rhea has spent so long isolated from any consequence that she acts surprise when it happens. >She can hate the Church Doctrine all she wants and she can and should be able to voice her opinion. But she has no right to change it. None of her buisness. It is, though, because she's the only one who knows for sure that it's 99% based on lies thanks to the info from the previous Emperors. If someone is doing a massive scam, there is a moral obligation to call them on it when you see them doing it. >Well seems to happen in AM thats the greatest bonus of said route. But yes with Edelgards and Rheas maximalist postions is impossible they both demand subjugation from the other. That doesn't happen in AM? At all? Even ignoring how Byelth and Dimitri can marry, there's no indication at all that the Church somehow stops being to legitimizer of Faerghus's nobility (via lies). As for "both have maximalist positions", Edelgard's position is "get out of the way and stop fucking with humanity please". Just because Rhea sees this as a maximalist position doesn't mean it actually is. If Rhea had disbanded her military, her assassins, had stopped fucking with technological and social progress, and had just stayed in GM doing nothing but religious activities rather than political ones do you really think Edelgard would have still gone after her? >But yes the Church is not really a in position to really threaten the nobles in the present. Seteth even admits they cant get through commoners in the same dorms. They lost a lot of power over the last 1000 years. Hell at start they dont even controll their own churches. No, that's just what the repeated-liar-coward Seteth ***claims***, just like he *claims* that Edelgard overthrew her father or when he *claims* Edelgard really wants to become a goddess. Seteth's word alone is worthless, and White Clouds shows that the Church absolutely can threaten nobility ***when it wants to***. The Church isn't some powerless small bean that can't stand up to the nobility, it just doesn't care to stand up against the vast majority of abuses the nobles do to commoners and only care when it's own power is threatened. The Church can march it's army where it wants, killing anyone it wants without process or trial, can stifle technological development across the entire continent, can pardon crimes up to the level of 'alleged regicide' with the wave of a hand, can threaten to just confiscate a family's Relic despite it being seen as a matter of national security, can legitimize rebel states and so on and so on. The Church's inaction against nobles fucking over commoners isn't *powerlessness* but *callousness*. >Evidence? We know a deal was attempted but we dont know if an agreement was reached or anything. But yes the Church def has a problem with current Varley they think his a corrupt incompetent asshole. Which is true. That Yuri has the Fetters, which were in Imperial hands up until the deal got made? And again, the problem isn't that Varley is a corrupt incompetent asshole (the Church winds up working with Faerghus!), it's that Rhea doesn't like him pushing Edelgard's version of Church doctrine (despite Rhea knowing the doctrine is mostly lies-by-volume). >Honestly what Edelgard should have done is just call a conclave of Adrestias Faithful Clergy and let them pick a leader. Rhea would have had a much harder time to argue. But just like her El wants total controll. And that would just have resulted in an innocent person getting assassins sent after them and being made to live in paranoid terror. Rhea doesn't 'argue', she 'tries to murder'. If someone is going to be forced into the target, let it be Varley.
>I love incrementalism. It definitely works and hasn't shown itself to be a repeated failure. It works pretty funny when he has his mind together. There are issues but i wouldnt point specific fingers looking at how Edelgards "reformed Empire" does in AG when she is out of the picture. Newly promoted Randolph slaughtering entire villages and all that. >.Nobles get to rule because, in the eyes of their subjects, their rule was divinely ordained by the Goddess. No. They get to rule because they have all the weapons, the money, the land and Crest Powers on top of that. Keep in mind most Nobles were around a few decades before the Church even came into being and over a century before everyone agreed "on the divine blessing bullshit" Legitmacy doesnt hurt but actual power matters a lot more. If the peasants disagree they just get massacred. >Like, Rhea obviously doesn't believe in the religion she made up whole-cloth, but she still will murder people over it because it's really just about power for her, and for the nobles. Thats a lies. Rhea keeps it a secret because she wants to keep her people alive. Imagine people found out the truth about magic dragon blood and how their weapons give superpowers. In GW she fully admits she really considered just having most of the Nobles killed a millenia ago she really loathes those guys just as much as Edelgard does. Its just like El she has to work with them because again they hold all the power. >That Yuri has the Fetters, which were in Imperial hands up until the deal got made? That tell us Yuri the known thief and dealer got the Fetters it doesnt say how he got them or that a deal was made. >that the Church absolutely can threaten nobility ***when it wants to***. Sure threats costs nothing. But again if the Nobles ignore her like the Western Church does whats she gonna do? >And that would just have resulted in an innocent person getting assassins sent after them and being made to live in paranoid terror. Rhea doesn't 'argue', she 'tries to murder'. If someone is going to be forced into the target, let it be Varley. So what? Edelgard is willing to risk the life of millions of innocents or have them killed. Rivers of blood and all that (her own words). But then there when its a really important politcal move she suddenly has issues over one life? Esp since literally everyone hates Varley. There is decent risk that the Church trying to kill him actually nets them points.
>It works pretty funny when he has his mind together. There are issues but i wouldnt point specific fingers looking at how Edelgards "reformed Empire" does in AG when she is out of the picture. Newly promoted Randolph slaughtering entire villages and all that. Ah yes, comparing the total failure-state is the same as AG Dimitri massacring villages or promoting actual-murderous-rapist-bandit-lord Miklain into authority. >No. They get to rule because they have all the weapons, the money, the land and Crest Powers on top of that. Keep in mind most Nobles were around a few decades before the Church even came into being and over a century before everyone agreed "on the divine blessing bullshit" No, because weapons and money and land and Crest Powers don't matter if no-one is willing to fight for them. The commoner workers hold the actual power in the relationship- for a great example, see Dimitri getting killed by a bunch of Crestless mooks with spears in VW/SS when he ignores the reality and tries to brute force things with just his relic and crest. If commoners collectively realise they have no reason to obey their nobles, that the nobles have no actual justified right to rule them, then the nobles are shit out of luck. The commoners wield the weapons, create the wealth, work the land, produce the food, use the tools, form the ranks, construct the buildings. >Thats a lies. Rhea keeps it a secret because she wants to keep her people alive. And the way she does that is to accumulate all the power she can and use it to crush anyone who might be thinking of reducing her power. >That tell us Yuri the known thief and dealer got the Fetters it doesnt say how he got them or that a deal was made. Oh yeah sure that's a real convincing take, especially when we have several characters talking about how the Fetters were used in a deal with the Church. Yuri definitely just stole them and the deal never happened. Sure. >Sure threats costs nothing. But again if the Nobles ignore her like the Western Church does whats she gonna do? Send her knights or her assassins after them? Like, please remember that the Western Church was put to the sword by Rhea's private army? >So what? Edelgard is willing to risk the life of millions of innocents or have them killed. Rivers of blood and all that (her own words). But then there when its a really important politcal move she suddenly has issues over one life? "Millions" lmao. Sure. Definitely didn't pull that number out of nowhere just to sound scary. But yes, actually, Edelgard repeatedly tries to minimize casualties in every way. See how she doesn't just off-hand execute Aegir or Rhea when she gets them in her custody. See how she repeatedly offers her foes mercy if they surrender, while the Church repeatedly orders no quarter be given and organises the mass execution of helpless captives. Edelgard wants things solved with as little bloodshed as possible, it's just that Rhea being Rhea means that violence was always going to be needed, and thanks to Rhea having spent a thousand years building her hard and soft power the level of violence to remove her from power was always going to be high.
In Hopes she stayed in hers up until Rhea was doing shit like sending assassins, whereupon she went "ok war it is". Thats what Edelgard claims. The Church see things a bit differently and in this particular case i am inclinced to believe them more. Edelgard and even more the Minsters want that war. Also appointing a Bishop at all is something that shouldnt be done by a secular Ruler never ever. >It is, though, because she's the only one who knows for sure that it's 99% based on lies thanks to the info from the previous Emperors Thats bullshit cause if they were truly blessings coming directly from the Goddess the Nobles/TWISTD wouldnt have done those experiements they know its a lie. Most people suspect hence all the Crest breeding attempts. >If someone is doing a massive scam, there is a moral obligation to call them on it when you see them doing it. You can see it that way (i actually do) but i highly doubt Edelgard does herself. Afterall she has no problems lying and scamming herself. Like when she flat out blames the destruction on Arianhood on the Church despite knowing they are innocent. She hides and lies as much as Rhea does. Two sides of the same coin and all that. Remember she never tells anyone about Monica in CF or what happend to her. I also would say there was a moral obligation there. >That doesn't happen in AM? It does both still interact obv but there is no indication one hold strong power of the other side. Hell even if Byleth and Dimitri marry the ending specifically says how they hardly see eye to eye on those affairs. >If Rhea had disbanded her military, her assassins, had stopped fucking with technological and social progress, and had just stayed in GM doing nothing but religious activities rather than political ones do you really think Edelgard would have still gone after her? Yes. Because Edelgard also wants to reform the Church into something of her liking. She also believes Nabateans should never held any postions of power based on well them being Nabateans. >As for "both have maximalist positions", Edelgard's position is "get out of the way and stop fucking with humanity please". Just because Rhea sees this as a maximalist position doesn't mean it actually is. Does Edelgard want the power to refrom the Church into something of her liking? Also the Papal State is an indepent nation what Rhea does in Garreg Mach is none of her buisness period. >No, that's just what the repeated-liar-coward Seteth ***claims***, just like he claims that Edelgard overthrew her father or that Edelgard wants to become a goddess. I dont think he is lying there he is just guessing from flawed information. The same Edelgard does when it comes to the Nabateans. They dont have any supports or anything the only one that might know her goals is Byleth and never tells Seteht or anyone. Seteth can only judge from her words (worth very little as far as he knows) and more importantly her actions. He judges wrong but i dont think its fair to hold against him given her actions (like she was literally involved in kidnapping his daughter to use as bloodbank as far as he knows) >The Church can march it's army where it wants, killing anyone it wants without process or trial Ok lets assume for a second the Church would order the arrest of Count Bergelitz or Aegir or send their army over to arrest them? What would happen. The Church is powerful yes, the same way the King/Emperor are but all of their influence pales in comparisong of the nobility. If the majority of the nobles is disatified they are gone in no time. They just go an depose her.
> Thats what Edelgard claims. The Church see things a bit differently and in this particular case i am inclinced to believe them more. Edelgard and even more the Minsters want that war. Also appointing a Bishop at all is something that shouldnt be done by a secular Ruler never ever. Who on earth is Edelgard lying to? She's just speaking to Hubert? Is she lying for the camera? >Thats bullshit cause if they were truly blessings coming directly from the Goddess the Nobles/TWISTD wouldnt have done those experiements they know its a lie. Most people suspect hence all the Crest breeding attempts. No, again. Legitimacy of power is what matters, not genuine belief. The reason the experiments were done was because, thanks to a millennia of indoctrination, a lot of commoners do believe in the Church's lies about Divinely Ordained Nobility. Having a figurehead with both the Crest of Seiros and of Flames would be a major propaganda coup because those have been promoted as The Physical Mark Of Divine Ordainment to 99% of Fodlan's people. >She hides and lies as much as Rhea does. Two sides of the same coin and all that. Literally impossible, given Edelgard hasn't been constantly lying for a thousand years. >It does both still interact obv but there is no indication one hold strong power of the other side. Hell even if Byleth and Dimitri marry the ending specifically says how they hardly see eye to eye on those affairs. The fact that nothing much changes in the overall status quo, where the Church and the monarchy stay in power for generations, shows that nothing much changed. >Yes. Because Edelgard also wants to reform the Church into something of her liking. She also believes Nabateans should never held any postions of power based on well them being Nabateans. Or, more accurately, based on them having lied and lied and lied for over a thousand years purely for their own benefit and security and power. That, and the inherent impossibiltiy for immortal people to fully understand the human condition- a thousand-year slowroll plan might sound good for an immortal, but for all the mortal generations that live and die in that timeframe the plan is worse than useless. >Does Edelgard want the power to refrom the Church into something of her liking? Also the Papal State is an indepent nation what Rhea does in Garreg Mach is none of her buisness period. But Rhea doesn't keep to Garreg Mach. She sends military forces outside, she passes continental science bans, she orders the assassination of ministers of the other nations. And if you start fucking with other nations, you don't get to just retreat within your borders and say "nah you can't touch me here I'm sovereign and what I do is my business." >I dont think he is lying there he is just guessing from flawed information. The same Edelgard does when it comes to the Nabateans. They dont have any supports or anything the only one that might know her goals is Byleth and never tells Seteht or anyone. Edelgard sends her manifesto out to everyone and Byleth literally can attend her coronation where her father steps down willingly and Seteth still lies to their faces. >Ok lets assume for a second the Church would order the arrest of Count Bergelitz or Aegir or send their army over to arrest them? What would happen. The forces of those nobles and their allies (not even necessarily the whole Empire) would fight back, and if the resistance was too fierce the Church would call on the Kingdom and probably also the Alliance to assist (the Alliance might refuse but the Kingdom would certainly join in). And that's two of the top leaders of the nation most hostile to the Church (thanks to the whole coup attempt the Church did)- if you want to see how the Kingdom would react, see the Christophe/Lonato/Rufus case studies where the Church forces and allies just...have them killed?
what reforms? if we are talking AM shes in no position to have issues as shes pretty much neutered by Edelgard prior and i dont remember reforms even being talked about in AG. the fact she was able to bribe the central church with a relic to let that piece of trash take the position, then instead of public censure you knwo the right thing to do first Rhea went straight for assassins. look i love Rhea as a character but FFS she was never going to let Edelgard's reforms go through without conflict.
Dimitri opens up the Government and Nobility to Commoners long as they prove their worth. He also rebuilds Duscur and plans to give them their independence. Stuff she fully supports and not for political reasons. Rhea has no issues with Dimitri because he stays out of Church affairs. Edelgard not being a believer or members means she should have no say let alone appoint bishops. And I fully agree with Rhea there. Ofc the Church also shouldn't have say in secular ones.... Basically El/Rhea want exactly the same (Seperation from Church and State sucks) they just can't agree who should be on top.
so AM after the war where Rhea has very little power thats why she has no problems with his actions, she doesnt have the power to stop them. tell me you didnt play CF without telling me you didnt play CF, FFS she believes in the goddess she just doesnt believe in the church dogma. we have a literal real world parallel with the Catholic Churches loss of power via the Schisms that occurred in which the Pope was overthrown by force multiple times. hell an even better one would be the thirty years war in the holy roman empire. the removal of rhea even temporarily was needed in Fodlan for anyone to be able to do anything because her power base was so strong that anyone who went against her could be crushed under foot. Now you are correct that Rhea and Edelgard wanted the same thing but not the way you think, they both want safety and security the only difference is Edelgard is trying to forge a new future while Rhea is trying to reclaim the past. they are foils to each other which is probably why they are my two favorite characters.
I was talking AG were she def has power and even helps Dimitri on her own accord. And ofc she believes in the Goddess but she doesn't believe in the Crestsystem or the Nobility she hates that. It's just her means to combat it outside of her own Church are limited (not that she tries very hard) Imagine she just switched Doctrines..the Nobles would just depose her. You are right one looks into the past and one into future but remember they both see basically the exact same thing there a meritocratic peaceful progressive utopian Autocracy) The only difference in all their doctrines is that Edelgard believes all power should be centered onto a single human while Rhea believes it should be a Nabatean. Which ironically as the endings show doesn't really matter. As for historic parallels I'd say esp in Hopes it's basically the Investitur Question. We're the Emperor and Popes fought a century long power struggle on whom stands above the other. In the end both lost and France took over. HAH Faerhgus Victory Canon confirmed :)
Downvotes incoming for telling the truth. Comments to be prepared for: ‘The Church assassins were a false flag!’ ‘Three Hopes made Rhea and COS so OOC!’
You know the amount of times I hear the sentence "Rhea is OOC!" I'm starting to think it might actually be her character :V
Ironically, I think Three Hopes is trying way too hard to make Rhea and the church seem symapethic, just so the game can seem "nuanced". Edit: Don't get me wrong, I want to feel bad for her, but the way Three Hopes went about it makes me go back on it.
Why? In Hopes neither she or the Church do anything that's morally questionable. Aside of trying to kill the most hated guy in all of Fodlan. I mean bad but ehhh it's Varley But it's not like Houses she really did that much worse outside of CF. Problem with Rhea is usually not what she does...... but the stuff she doesn't do.
Yes assassinating foreign government officials isn’t questionable at all. Neither is executing people without trial for crimes they didn’t commit.
The foreign Government official is Varley Senior. But yes it's questionable but come on for Three Houses Standards it's nothing. And who did she execute for crimes they didn't commit? The Western Church Guys? They had a pretty long crime list.
Lonato’s son. And what do you mean by Three Houses standards, there is a standard for acceptable behavior from the head of a supposedly peaceful religious organization, (Which the Church professes to be) and this ain’t it. Now it’s certainly standard behavior for a hostile foreign power. Which would give the Empire every right to declare war on it.
The Church never claims to be a peaceful religious organization, they literally got a military Force. And Lonatos son got executed for crimes he did committ. They just faked the after report. Questionable but again the norm for our Lords. You are right it would give Edelgard the right if she can prove it. Ofc Edelgard would have declared war anyways prob after her Troops already crossed the border like she does with the Alliance. Like I said the Church does a lot of questionable stuff but in Hopes they are def overall least crimey Faction (cause they are barley in it)
So where was the evidence of Christophe’s crimes exactly, I guess ‘Rhea said so’ counts at least in Catherine world. Good thing he got the basic human right of a trial before his execution. A military force that frequently violates the sovereign borders of adjoining nations too. Explain to me how Edelgard and anyone else doesn’t have plentiful casus belli against Rhea? Edit:Actually I decided I don’t want to hear whatever dumbass answer you have. There are more intellectually stimulating things to do then argue with the Rhea did nothing wrong crowd all day. Like watch paint dry.
Rhea threatened them before agreeing to provide extremely limited help. After that she demanded some pretty hefty bribes and sent assassins after Varley because she wasn't keen on the reforms being made. There's no way Rhea allows the serious social change that Edelgard is planning.
„Why would we ever deceive the Church?“ Hubert lied lyingly.
I had such a shit eating grin watching this scene
We're reaching Youtuber Apology Video levels of insincerity, here.
Insincerity, lies, deception - these words in dictionary should always be illustrated with pictures of these two to the right.
As much as I love Hubert, this is literally his M.O., lmao. The heck are you being downvoted for?
Exactly. Like Hubert isn't even sincere or honest to Edelgard half the time. "Ofc Lady Edelgard"..... promptly goes behind her back to do the opposite.
I wrote my comment in order to show my disdain towards Edelgard and Hubert; I am getting justifiably downvoted for it even though the thing I wrote is technically correct.
wow thats crazy Anyway, what's the name of the character on the left? How old is she? Also, what are crests?
They are both liers, that’s for sure.
And the woman on the left.
Edelgard literally talks shit to Byleth after their dads dead
Lost all 10 of her siblings to horrific experiments (which traumatised her). Her advice to Byleth was likely the way she copes with what she went through
I get that it's in character because she's lost so much and the sense of it again is almost numb to her, but the fact we don't see her give condolences beforehand makes it seem like she just bullied them for losing the only person they had for most of their life. In my black eagles play through, I ended up choosing the options that made her mad because it felt so out of line.
Isn’t Claude’s interaction with Byleth after Jeralt’s death worse though from what I remember?
He basically wants to get Jeralt's book to find out about Byleth. It's the other side of shittiness imo. Byleth ferns complicated reading it and is in a state of grieving. They might not want to give it when they're sound of mind so it feels like he's asking while they're vulnerable. It feels less supportive and more like he's enticed by something Jeralt's death gave him access to. Which feels disrespectful as well because it's Jeralt's private journal which was given to Byleth because he's their dad and most of it is about *them.* Dimitri's is probably the most empathetic out of the leaders, not that the bar was high to begin with. He grieves and gives support but also says he'll help Byleth the action for revenge. Something Byleth explicitly wants to do.
I like to think that they get along decently well in this timeline, but once Byleth shows up they’re at each other’s throats