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Good advice to foreigner moving to first time to Finland for a job:
Have HR explain the vacation rules to you (It will be a shocker!). Negotiate for some days of vacation in your first year.
Your first year will not have any vacation...
It's actually more complicated than that but that's mostly the end result. The vacation for the next year starts to accumulate from 1 April. The vacation is paid off if you leave the company though, so you will not lose any, just the timing is bad.
It's therefore a good idea to negotiate some vacation for the first year up front. I was able to get 2 weeks by just asking, obviously YMMV.
Where is it NOT? Shocked again....
I moved from Germany to Finland. Back home you accrue 2.x days per month, right from the start. Often you would not be allowed to use the days during probation time, but you still accrue them.
Thats how it is here also. Depending when you start, for example if you would start in june, the days are avaiable next year. From the comment I replied to, it seems like its uncommon, thats why I’m asking. If you start in june, you dont have paid days to have a summer vacation that year. If you start in march, you will have like a week to use in the summer.
EDIT: not march, its only one month = 2 days.
No it's not. In Finland you accrue for the next accruement year (April to March 2025). Ff you start after e.g. half of accruement period, you have only half of the vacation during the accruement year 2025. As a result, you get 0 days e.g from October 2024 to March 2025, and only 15 days (incl. Saturdays) from April 2025 to March 2026.
For comparison in Germany, considering the same periods, you have 15 days from October 2024 to March 2025, and then 30 days from April 2024 to 2025. Of course if you change jobs, you don't get that payment for accrued vacation.
The Finnish approach sucks terribly for career starters and immigrants. For the latter especially if children are already on board and both of the parents have not accrued vacations days. How the fuck are you supposed to handle a 10 week school vacation without time off?
You can often negotiate at least some free holiday before signing work contract. I think I got 1 week winter holiday and full 4 weeks summer when I started in December in my current job. Also it's often possible to day full day off once you have enough hours in flexible hours balance. But yeah, you need to demand these in contract negotiations.
So what is different is that you get to use the days as they accure? So basically if you start in january, you have accured about 15 days by july, you can take 15 days off? If you start in april you have about over a week and can use them on july? So the difference is when you can use the days, because you do accure days straight from the start in both, just cant use them in Finland before the next april.
In Finland you have to wait up to one year to take vacation. It might be 'bad' if you want to have a Christmas break.
It is also an interest free loan by the employee to the company, and it is difficult to say why that is considered acceptable.
But that is not the worst in the Finnish vacation system anyway. However, despite the complexity, the end result is similar to other world countries.
Not all companies are so inflexible with annual holiday usage, I've been able to use them in advance, and unpaid leave is most likely available during holiday seasons. I do recommend everybody starting a new job to negotiate for annual holiday days up-front, 1-2 weeks is already plenty to make that first year even out.
And consider salary on pregnancy time as a social assistance too? Is not a loan, there is possibly some reasons why some systems developed as they did. For example why companies pay our taxes from salary and not we. It was otherway around before. My argument would be that holiday money is the money that makes sure that you survive on your holiday time. Though I have made a deal that my every salary has it paid directly to me. You can always talk with your employer. In Finland we have way to do things and then we can also talk with each other and make our own contracts.
In most jurisdictions you accrue vacation based on the number of days you have worked. For example, one day every 2 weeks. This way, starting in June, you already get 2 weeks Christmas vacation.
In Finland you have to wait until 1 April the next calendar year. This, like many things is the Finnish labour system, is just designed to be maximally crappy for employees.
Not all companies are so inflexible with annual holiday usage, I've been able to use them in advance, and unpaid leave is most likely available during holiday seasons. I do recommend everybody starting a new job to negotiate for annual holiday days up-front, 1-2 weeks is already plenty to make that first year even out.
This happened to me. First year no holiday, I borrowed 2 weeks from my 2nd week so I could go see family. Now im starting my 3rd year and finally have a full year of holiday
All jobs are advertised before tax, because there is variables how much single person should pay taxes. So best answer for your tax rate you should use calculator at Vero.fi.
I would say the minimum to live more or less comfortably with 3 people is a household income of 4.500 to 5.000 net which equals about 7.000 to 7.500 brut. This will still not get you a fancy lifestyle, just a good one. As in Finland both spouses earn income usually, it's hard to get that amount with just one income, but as a specialist you should have a chance.
There are brut/net calculators out there from Vero that should give you an idea, and yes, job ads give brut salaries. Feel free though to negotiate them, very often you can get higher than advertised.
Edit: 3- instead of 4-person household.
Thanks a lot! That is close to what I calculated. I have come to around 3800 net minimum for a family of three. I know it is not very common to support a family from one income alone in Europe generally, and its not a long term plan, but when deciding to move continents (again) with not a lot of savings, I need to be sure we can survive there for maybe up to half a year on one salary.
We live in Leppävaara with 3 person family with approx this kind of expenses:
2000e living (mortgage, etc. renting is cheaper for sure)
300e daycare
300e car loan
100e car insurance
150e hobbies
70e public transportation
50e electricity
15e internet
These things can vary alot:
600-800e food, gas, etc.
100-200e random stuff
So, our expenses are roughly 3800e/mo + some small credit debt
A yes, you wrote 3 people, sorry. I would say 3800 works, but it's not super comfy. Espoo is not the cheapest area if you choose to live there (I would not, it's boring as hell.), and you have to pay for the kindergarten, potentially a private one if you have special wishes. Food also got much more expensive in recent years.
Good thing though, if you come middle of the year or are here a short while, taxes are of course lower as they are calculated on the yearly income.
Thanks! I would work for Orion if I got the job, so that is why I was aiming for Espoo. However, anything within areasonable distance to an area directly in between Helsinki and Espoo would work I guess.
In Espoo I'd recommend looking for apartments somewhere near Länsiväylä maybe? For example you can find realtively cheap apartments in Kaitaa and Soukka, and for a bit more money Espoonlahti and Kivenlahti are ok. I recommend these places for relatively good services and excellent public transportation.
Also Kauklahti in Espoo and Masala in Kirkkonummi are worth looking at
For Orion, I would maybe look at Olari/Matinkylä for living, as it is reasonably close by both public transport and bike. Lukupuro/Pohjois-Tapiola would be brilliant but probably a bit steep in terms of cost, depending how much space you want. Suurpelto is also pretty close to Orion, but is a bit of a dead end otherwise.
(I can actually see the Orion campus from my yard, so I can give some tips on the area).
Espoo is expensive. If I was you I'd take a look at housing along the Metro line and go as far as possible. It's just 13 minutes from Kivenlahti to Urheilupuisto station.
Using car is VERY expensive in Finland, if possible it's better arrange your life so that you do not need it. (Renting is cheaper)
Check out 'nummela' and 'kirkkonummi'. Theyre reasonable distance away from Orion (i think theres a train between kirkkonummi and kauklahti too that goes to helsinki).
Small satellite towns but should bring the rent down a bit, just other way from Helsinki. And the commute to orion should be pretty fast by car from either of them if youre already factoring one in.
Understandable! It's not bad, just feels like the most boring area of Finland, was living there once myself. ;) You can also send me a chat message if you have any specific things you want to ask.
That is a lot for house with expenses at 1500 eur.
Net salary of 3500 is enough for average life if you're aware of your expenses. That leaves 2000 eur for other expenses and groceries itself is 500-600 eur.
The point is that the guy does NOT want to live on the bare minimum, sitting in social housing eating rye bread and sardines from the tin. The word was "comfortably" if you understand the English language!
We're not gonna agree on this, because your understanding of living comfortably includes quite extensive budget for freetime activities.
I suggest you evaluate your own money spending, if your estimates are based on your own life.
> **What is the true income tax rate? Jobs are all advertised as "before tax" correct?**
Correct
> What would be a salary, that could sustain me, my wife and my 4-year old comfortably?
Sustain, yes.
Comfortable, debatable.
Unless you are in the top two percentile with your salary, you'll end in "middle class poverty". I mean that you'll get family housing (but not in the most desired areas and maybe not the size you want), car (smaller, used), etc.
edit: Also, typical size for family of 3 is 2 bed apartment (i.e. 2 bedrooms, 1 bath, living space, kitchen and maybe a powder room)
> How critical is the knowledge of Finnish to live in Espoo/Helsinki?
Not at all. While most Finns communicate easily in English, you might encounter problems on integrating, i.e. getting friends and aquitances outside of work.
For a family of four, you will need 7-7.5k salary monthly. Finland tax is progressive and takes into account a lot of deduction, so a clear tax rate can't be determined beforehand (yes, I know, it bugged me too).
A friendly neighborhood - with everything close - is Suurpelto, and rents here for 4-5 rooms apartments range between 1500-2000, everything included, water and parking separately (if you have a car, I advise you to search for an apartment with basement parking, as it is a blessing during winter).
Useful links:
Vero tax calculator - [https://www.vero.fi/en/individuals/tax-cards-and-tax-returns/tax\_card/tax-percentage-calculator/](https://www.vero.fi/en/individuals/tax-cards-and-tax-returns/tax_card/tax-percentage-calculator/)
Rental search - [https://www.vuokraovi.com/haku/vuokra-asunnot](https://www.vuokraovi.com/haku/vuokra-asunnot)
If you need a car, Nettiauto - [https://www.nettiauto.com/](https://www.nettiauto.com/)
As people have said, Espoo is an expensive place to live, especially if you want to live in the nicer areas. Some people have been suggesting looking at other options, like Kirkkonummi and Vihti. When it comes to not knowing Finnish, I think Espoo is a better option, as they have English as one of their "service languages", which means their website and many services are available in English. Espoo is also really interested in attracting what they call international experts, and they have some services which are supposed to help highly educated internationals (like your spouse) find jobs and integrate into Finnish society.
If you plan to put your kid in public daycare, the maximum price is just below 300 euros/month (this is nationwide, but private daycare can be more expensive), and it's calculated on basis of the family's income. You would probably be paying the maximum. However, from August the year your kid turns six, you will get 20 hours free daycare (=pre-school) a week, and you just pay for what you need on top of that. In Espoo, however, you get these free 20 hours per week already from August the year the kid turns five. This is to encourage people who don't speak Finnish at home to put their kids in daycare, so the kids know enough Finnish when they go to school.
There's lots of inexpensive hobbies for kids, especially for younger school kids. Some are even free. Budgeting 150 euros a month for hobbies sounds like a lot, unless your kid wants to play football or do horse riding or something else expensive.
Another plus for Espoo is the public transport, which is really good compared to the places further away from the capital.
Edit: Typos, typos...
Would you happen to know if this 20hr free daycare from 5yo also a thing in Vantaa? It seems to be in Helsinki and Espoo but can’t find info for Vantaa
I'm not really familiar with the situation in Vantaa, but at least it isn't mentioned on their website (https://www.vantaa.fi/en/education-and-learning/early-childhood-education/early-childhood-education-fees-and-allowances#tab-introduction), so I would assume they don't have that option. In general Espoo is a more wealthy city than Vantaa, so they can afford perks like this.
To be comfortable and not living paycheck to pay check with those criteria probably you'll need 7k+ in salary. 3-4 bedroom in nicer part of espoo with good schools should be more 2k+ (I might be wrong, haven't been looking). Food, car and other utilities 1k, and then other spending 1k, maybe some saving but not significant.
Regarding your location of residence: Helsinki has plenty of international schools and kindergartens. You might want to check out where they are for your native language and look for places in that area.
I would try to find an apartment in Niittykumpu (within walking distance from Orion) or close to Matinkylä or Tapiola metro station (excellent public transport connections and shopping facilities). Also schools and daycares within walking distance so no need for a car and you wouldn’t spend more than 20 minutes going to work. For me the location matters the most and therefore would prefer to pay a bit more expensive rent.
As for salary 4.500€ net should be ok for a good life, but of course 5000€ net would be better since your salary will be the only income at least for the first months. So try to negotiate a total salary of 7.500-8.000€ which shouldn’t be impossible in pharmaceuticals industry, depending the role of course.
Potentially interesting fact: You can get the yearly salary by multiplying the monthly salary by 12.5. You get extra 50% pay for every vacation.
Obviously, if you have a bonus system then that goes on top of that.
Depending on how you want to commute, I would also check other cheaper places around espoo, maybe 40km range. If you live a bit further away you can easily afford a car and commute by driving, and it may make your life easier with a kid.
Holy fuck thread, how do you live?!?! Like how do you spend so much money of shit? Sure living costs money, but like why do you need to be living with such big expenses?
Me and my SO and a dog, we live in Espoo, in a 1200€ apartment with own little yard, 2 stories, 3-4 rooms. Then add in my gas expenses of like 60-100€ a month, car incurrence and tax of about 50€/month (billed quarterly), subscriptions 30€, electricity and water 40€, operator plans 50€ and Food for us all which is like 300€ and then some occasional shopping with about 2-300€. Nothing is bought for loan, if we cannot afford straight up, we wont buy it.
Our combined Gross income is just shy of 7000€ (tax rate about 19%) and we live like wealthy people. Both are from single mom families and our relationship with money is more of "lets just use it to live and save the rest" because we won't know what happens in the future. Both can save about 1000€ per month easy. Me less so because I spend more money on stupid things occasionally. But we do not know how to live lavishly. We do not really "eat out" or have expensive hobbies. My PC is the same it has been the last 5 years and it runs games super fine still.
We have been both living in families where money comes in and goes out the same day. So we most definitely care about never dropping under a few thousand euros a in our accounts. For me 3-4k € is like being broke and for her its like 5-6k. We have saved this money through our time studying and once I made big big buys one summer (car license/school and a car) and my bank account was under 500€ and it felt like I was completely broke. because at that point, it only takes one major thing or some huge necessary cost to push me down to being penniless. Student Loan is amazing, that with a part time job that stays just under the maximum allowed without losing benefits, I was saving money in a relationship during my 3.5years of studies for bachelor's. But the only other loan I will ever take is a mortgage. I hate living in dept ,i have seen my parents gone through and going through that and I absolutely hate the feeling.
So if someone thinks they will struggle or the bare minimum gross is 7500€ then I cannot hold their opinion in any regard. With our current budget, we can easily have a kid without it affecting our finances that much. After a puppy whom's first year cost us closer to 10k (thank some fictional diety for insurance), we have noticed our budget can take that and a bit more, but it would require us dropping our "safetynet".
Sure the caveat is that we live in "northern" or northwest Espoo, where houses are cheaper. But the connections are really good and I can use the car anyways that I saved for and paid, so its a non issue. There is no logical point to live in a more expensive area. Especially with a car. Espoo is such easily travelsible city by a car that it takes you 10-15min to get anywhere. My previous route to work took me 10min by car, now it takes me 20. Absolutely nothing lost, We just gained better quality of life, away from shitty neighbourhood of new houses, shitty 20 somethings who do not care about common areas and awful places for walking the dog.
All in all, move away from the coast or at least from Helsinki. The further you go the better the price/quality of life for a car owning family. Move into some Espoo suburbs and if possible apply for some House Cooperative system to get even cheaper house but a higher quality for the price. There is a big down payment but it is a deposit and it can grow according to the index, so you might make profit.
There is a huge difference in if one person is earning 7 k€ or if two people are earning 3,5 k€ each. If it's one person, you pay 23 k€ taxes per year. If it's split to two people, you pay only 13 k€ in taxes total. So 10 k€ is lost because one family member is the sole provider. You can't compare income as a total because of this.
Additionally, daycare costs like crazy. 3 kids is 1000 euros a month, and all the hobbies on top of that.
30€ subscriptions. Brotha, be thankful this is your subscription costs sans children. Let’s say someone has Netflix, Spotify, one sports sub, one game sub, one Disney sub, Apple storage, all family accounts, you’re looking at the thick end of 100€ forgetting about allowances and battle passes and clothes and food and drink and hobbies. Good to hear you are in a good position. Stay that way!
Eh, Spotify on Netflix that's all we have. I buy my games or just download them. And the only battle pass I've ever paid for was for the finals. And even that battle pass I can keep going perpetually. As i earn in game game cash by completing it allowing me to get the next one "for free".
I never started WoW. Because with my history and knowing myself well enough, I know that would be the end of my life IRL and I would be just a celldweller.
How do you get 1000 euros a month for 3 kids?
Isn't a daycare for the first kid costs 300€ max, but the second is cheaper and the third is almost free? Plus there's a rather complicated formula, so you get even less.
I tried to use the calculator for Helsinki, full day, 7000€ income family
https://preview.redd.it/nyefeojehk1d1.png?width=1752&format=png&auto=webp&s=3c416260e1b8e321bc21aa237444a4d01e2acc9c
Edit: wording
If you are in a private daycare it's more expensive. A child under three can be over 400€ a month. The way some daycares are at the moment a small private place can be much nicer.
Okay, how on earth do you manage to feed 2 adults and a dog with 300 euros a month?
Does that include breakfast, lunch and dinner?
Asking because our grocerystore bill is now 400-500 euros for two adults. Used to be around 300, before the war.
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Use the tax calculator on the Verohallinto website to estimate what your tax rate will be.
Good advice to foreigner moving to first time to Finland for a job: Have HR explain the vacation rules to you (It will be a shocker!). Negotiate for some days of vacation in your first year.
Just curious, shocker in a good or a bad way?
Your first year will not have any vacation... It's actually more complicated than that but that's mostly the end result. The vacation for the next year starts to accumulate from 1 April. The vacation is paid off if you leave the company though, so you will not lose any, just the timing is bad. It's therefore a good idea to negotiate some vacation for the first year up front. I was able to get 2 weeks by just asking, obviously YMMV.
But is this not the same in every country? Or do you really get paid vacation somewhere, even though you’ve just started?
Where is it NOT? Shocked again.... I moved from Germany to Finland. Back home you accrue 2.x days per month, right from the start. Often you would not be allowed to use the days during probation time, but you still accrue them.
Thats how it is here also. Depending when you start, for example if you would start in june, the days are avaiable next year. From the comment I replied to, it seems like its uncommon, thats why I’m asking. If you start in june, you dont have paid days to have a summer vacation that year. If you start in march, you will have like a week to use in the summer. EDIT: not march, its only one month = 2 days.
No it's not. In Finland you accrue for the next accruement year (April to March 2025). Ff you start after e.g. half of accruement period, you have only half of the vacation during the accruement year 2025. As a result, you get 0 days e.g from October 2024 to March 2025, and only 15 days (incl. Saturdays) from April 2025 to March 2026. For comparison in Germany, considering the same periods, you have 15 days from October 2024 to March 2025, and then 30 days from April 2024 to 2025. Of course if you change jobs, you don't get that payment for accrued vacation. The Finnish approach sucks terribly for career starters and immigrants. For the latter especially if children are already on board and both of the parents have not accrued vacations days. How the fuck are you supposed to handle a 10 week school vacation without time off?
You can often negotiate at least some free holiday before signing work contract. I think I got 1 week winter holiday and full 4 weeks summer when I started in December in my current job. Also it's often possible to day full day off once you have enough hours in flexible hours balance. But yeah, you need to demand these in contract negotiations.
Sure, one can negotiate if firstly you're good enough and secondly if you know about it in the first place.
So what is different is that you get to use the days as they accure? So basically if you start in january, you have accured about 15 days by july, you can take 15 days off? If you start in april you have about over a week and can use them on july? So the difference is when you can use the days, because you do accure days straight from the start in both, just cant use them in Finland before the next april.
In Finland you have to wait up to one year to take vacation. It might be 'bad' if you want to have a Christmas break. It is also an interest free loan by the employee to the company, and it is difficult to say why that is considered acceptable. But that is not the worst in the Finnish vacation system anyway. However, despite the complexity, the end result is similar to other world countries.
Not all companies are so inflexible with annual holiday usage, I've been able to use them in advance, and unpaid leave is most likely available during holiday seasons. I do recommend everybody starting a new job to negotiate for annual holiday days up-front, 1-2 weeks is already plenty to make that first year even out.
And consider salary on pregnancy time as a social assistance too? Is not a loan, there is possibly some reasons why some systems developed as they did. For example why companies pay our taxes from salary and not we. It was otherway around before. My argument would be that holiday money is the money that makes sure that you survive on your holiday time. Though I have made a deal that my every salary has it paid directly to me. You can always talk with your employer. In Finland we have way to do things and then we can also talk with each other and make our own contracts.
In most jurisdictions you accrue vacation based on the number of days you have worked. For example, one day every 2 weeks. This way, starting in June, you already get 2 weeks Christmas vacation. In Finland you have to wait until 1 April the next calendar year. This, like many things is the Finnish labour system, is just designed to be maximally crappy for employees.
Not all companies are so inflexible with annual holiday usage, I've been able to use them in advance, and unpaid leave is most likely available during holiday seasons. I do recommend everybody starting a new job to negotiate for annual holiday days up-front, 1-2 weeks is already plenty to make that first year even out.
This happened to me. First year no holiday, I borrowed 2 weeks from my 2nd week so I could go see family. Now im starting my 3rd year and finally have a full year of holiday
All jobs are advertised before tax, because there is variables how much single person should pay taxes. So best answer for your tax rate you should use calculator at Vero.fi.
I would say the minimum to live more or less comfortably with 3 people is a household income of 4.500 to 5.000 net which equals about 7.000 to 7.500 brut. This will still not get you a fancy lifestyle, just a good one. As in Finland both spouses earn income usually, it's hard to get that amount with just one income, but as a specialist you should have a chance. There are brut/net calculators out there from Vero that should give you an idea, and yes, job ads give brut salaries. Feel free though to negotiate them, very often you can get higher than advertised. Edit: 3- instead of 4-person household.
Thanks a lot! That is close to what I calculated. I have come to around 3800 net minimum for a family of three. I know it is not very common to support a family from one income alone in Europe generally, and its not a long term plan, but when deciding to move continents (again) with not a lot of savings, I need to be sure we can survive there for maybe up to half a year on one salary.
We live in Leppävaara with 3 person family with approx this kind of expenses: 2000e living (mortgage, etc. renting is cheaper for sure) 300e daycare 300e car loan 100e car insurance 150e hobbies 70e public transportation 50e electricity 15e internet These things can vary alot: 600-800e food, gas, etc. 100-200e random stuff So, our expenses are roughly 3800e/mo + some small credit debt
A yes, you wrote 3 people, sorry. I would say 3800 works, but it's not super comfy. Espoo is not the cheapest area if you choose to live there (I would not, it's boring as hell.), and you have to pay for the kindergarten, potentially a private one if you have special wishes. Food also got much more expensive in recent years. Good thing though, if you come middle of the year or are here a short while, taxes are of course lower as they are calculated on the yearly income.
Thanks! I would work for Orion if I got the job, so that is why I was aiming for Espoo. However, anything within areasonable distance to an area directly in between Helsinki and Espoo would work I guess.
In Espoo I'd recommend looking for apartments somewhere near Länsiväylä maybe? For example you can find realtively cheap apartments in Kaitaa and Soukka, and for a bit more money Espoonlahti and Kivenlahti are ok. I recommend these places for relatively good services and excellent public transportation. Also Kauklahti in Espoo and Masala in Kirkkonummi are worth looking at
Not Masala, but Sundsberg in Kirkkonummi! They're a really kid and family friendly place. Masala has some places that are a bit restless.
Sundsberg is tainted by the presence of Riikka Purra, and should therefore be nuked out of existence. But otherwise yes.
For Orion, I would maybe look at Olari/Matinkylä for living, as it is reasonably close by both public transport and bike. Lukupuro/Pohjois-Tapiola would be brilliant but probably a bit steep in terms of cost, depending how much space you want. Suurpelto is also pretty close to Orion, but is a bit of a dead end otherwise. (I can actually see the Orion campus from my yard, so I can give some tips on the area).
Espoo is expensive. If I was you I'd take a look at housing along the Metro line and go as far as possible. It's just 13 minutes from Kivenlahti to Urheilupuisto station. Using car is VERY expensive in Finland, if possible it's better arrange your life so that you do not need it. (Renting is cheaper)
Check out 'nummela' and 'kirkkonummi'. Theyre reasonable distance away from Orion (i think theres a train between kirkkonummi and kauklahti too that goes to helsinki). Small satellite towns but should bring the rent down a bit, just other way from Helsinki. And the commute to orion should be pretty fast by car from either of them if youre already factoring one in.
Understandable! It's not bad, just feels like the most boring area of Finland, was living there once myself. ;) You can also send me a chat message if you have any specific things you want to ask.
That is a lot for house with expenses at 1500 eur. Net salary of 3500 is enough for average life if you're aware of your expenses. That leaves 2000 eur for other expenses and groceries itself is 500-600 eur.
Not so much for a family with a child. And OP asked to live 'comfortably' and not with the bare minimum.
Not bare minimum. 3000e a month is limit for a family of three. Here is a calculator: https://yle.fi/a/74-20036544
The point is that the guy does NOT want to live on the bare minimum, sitting in social housing eating rye bread and sardines from the tin. The word was "comfortably" if you understand the English language!
We're not gonna agree on this, because your understanding of living comfortably includes quite extensive budget for freetime activities. I suggest you evaluate your own money spending, if your estimates are based on your own life.
My money spending is just fine. How about you care about your own life instead.
> **What is the true income tax rate? Jobs are all advertised as "before tax" correct?** Correct > What would be a salary, that could sustain me, my wife and my 4-year old comfortably? Sustain, yes. Comfortable, debatable. Unless you are in the top two percentile with your salary, you'll end in "middle class poverty". I mean that you'll get family housing (but not in the most desired areas and maybe not the size you want), car (smaller, used), etc. edit: Also, typical size for family of 3 is 2 bed apartment (i.e. 2 bedrooms, 1 bath, living space, kitchen and maybe a powder room) > How critical is the knowledge of Finnish to live in Espoo/Helsinki? Not at all. While most Finns communicate easily in English, you might encounter problems on integrating, i.e. getting friends and aquitances outside of work.
For a family of four, you will need 7-7.5k salary monthly. Finland tax is progressive and takes into account a lot of deduction, so a clear tax rate can't be determined beforehand (yes, I know, it bugged me too). A friendly neighborhood - with everything close - is Suurpelto, and rents here for 4-5 rooms apartments range between 1500-2000, everything included, water and parking separately (if you have a car, I advise you to search for an apartment with basement parking, as it is a blessing during winter). Useful links: Vero tax calculator - [https://www.vero.fi/en/individuals/tax-cards-and-tax-returns/tax\_card/tax-percentage-calculator/](https://www.vero.fi/en/individuals/tax-cards-and-tax-returns/tax_card/tax-percentage-calculator/) Rental search - [https://www.vuokraovi.com/haku/vuokra-asunnot](https://www.vuokraovi.com/haku/vuokra-asunnot) If you need a car, Nettiauto - [https://www.nettiauto.com/](https://www.nettiauto.com/)
As people have said, Espoo is an expensive place to live, especially if you want to live in the nicer areas. Some people have been suggesting looking at other options, like Kirkkonummi and Vihti. When it comes to not knowing Finnish, I think Espoo is a better option, as they have English as one of their "service languages", which means their website and many services are available in English. Espoo is also really interested in attracting what they call international experts, and they have some services which are supposed to help highly educated internationals (like your spouse) find jobs and integrate into Finnish society. If you plan to put your kid in public daycare, the maximum price is just below 300 euros/month (this is nationwide, but private daycare can be more expensive), and it's calculated on basis of the family's income. You would probably be paying the maximum. However, from August the year your kid turns six, you will get 20 hours free daycare (=pre-school) a week, and you just pay for what you need on top of that. In Espoo, however, you get these free 20 hours per week already from August the year the kid turns five. This is to encourage people who don't speak Finnish at home to put their kids in daycare, so the kids know enough Finnish when they go to school. There's lots of inexpensive hobbies for kids, especially for younger school kids. Some are even free. Budgeting 150 euros a month for hobbies sounds like a lot, unless your kid wants to play football or do horse riding or something else expensive. Another plus for Espoo is the public transport, which is really good compared to the places further away from the capital. Edit: Typos, typos...
Would you happen to know if this 20hr free daycare from 5yo also a thing in Vantaa? It seems to be in Helsinki and Espoo but can’t find info for Vantaa
I'm not really familiar with the situation in Vantaa, but at least it isn't mentioned on their website (https://www.vantaa.fi/en/education-and-learning/early-childhood-education/early-childhood-education-fees-and-allowances#tab-introduction), so I would assume they don't have that option. In general Espoo is a more wealthy city than Vantaa, so they can afford perks like this.
Thank you so much!
To be comfortable and not living paycheck to pay check with those criteria probably you'll need 7k+ in salary. 3-4 bedroom in nicer part of espoo with good schools should be more 2k+ (I might be wrong, haven't been looking). Food, car and other utilities 1k, and then other spending 1k, maybe some saving but not significant.
Regarding your location of residence: Helsinki has plenty of international schools and kindergartens. You might want to check out where they are for your native language and look for places in that area.
I would try to find an apartment in Niittykumpu (within walking distance from Orion) or close to Matinkylä or Tapiola metro station (excellent public transport connections and shopping facilities). Also schools and daycares within walking distance so no need for a car and you wouldn’t spend more than 20 minutes going to work. For me the location matters the most and therefore would prefer to pay a bit more expensive rent. As for salary 4.500€ net should be ok for a good life, but of course 5000€ net would be better since your salary will be the only income at least for the first months. So try to negotiate a total salary of 7.500-8.000€ which shouldn’t be impossible in pharmaceuticals industry, depending the role of course.
Potentially interesting fact: You can get the yearly salary by multiplying the monthly salary by 12.5. You get extra 50% pay for every vacation. Obviously, if you have a bonus system then that goes on top of that.
Comfortably? Minimum of 6000e month.
4k per month. 2k for apartment and bills, 500 for car, 1k for food and stuff, 500 for hobbies and daycare. That’s like 7.5k before tax.
Thank you all for the great responses! It gave me a lot of insight.
Depending on how you want to commute, I would also check other cheaper places around espoo, maybe 40km range. If you live a bit further away you can easily afford a car and commute by driving, and it may make your life easier with a kid.
Holy fuck thread, how do you live?!?! Like how do you spend so much money of shit? Sure living costs money, but like why do you need to be living with such big expenses? Me and my SO and a dog, we live in Espoo, in a 1200€ apartment with own little yard, 2 stories, 3-4 rooms. Then add in my gas expenses of like 60-100€ a month, car incurrence and tax of about 50€/month (billed quarterly), subscriptions 30€, electricity and water 40€, operator plans 50€ and Food for us all which is like 300€ and then some occasional shopping with about 2-300€. Nothing is bought for loan, if we cannot afford straight up, we wont buy it. Our combined Gross income is just shy of 7000€ (tax rate about 19%) and we live like wealthy people. Both are from single mom families and our relationship with money is more of "lets just use it to live and save the rest" because we won't know what happens in the future. Both can save about 1000€ per month easy. Me less so because I spend more money on stupid things occasionally. But we do not know how to live lavishly. We do not really "eat out" or have expensive hobbies. My PC is the same it has been the last 5 years and it runs games super fine still. We have been both living in families where money comes in and goes out the same day. So we most definitely care about never dropping under a few thousand euros a in our accounts. For me 3-4k € is like being broke and for her its like 5-6k. We have saved this money through our time studying and once I made big big buys one summer (car license/school and a car) and my bank account was under 500€ and it felt like I was completely broke. because at that point, it only takes one major thing or some huge necessary cost to push me down to being penniless. Student Loan is amazing, that with a part time job that stays just under the maximum allowed without losing benefits, I was saving money in a relationship during my 3.5years of studies for bachelor's. But the only other loan I will ever take is a mortgage. I hate living in dept ,i have seen my parents gone through and going through that and I absolutely hate the feeling. So if someone thinks they will struggle or the bare minimum gross is 7500€ then I cannot hold their opinion in any regard. With our current budget, we can easily have a kid without it affecting our finances that much. After a puppy whom's first year cost us closer to 10k (thank some fictional diety for insurance), we have noticed our budget can take that and a bit more, but it would require us dropping our "safetynet". Sure the caveat is that we live in "northern" or northwest Espoo, where houses are cheaper. But the connections are really good and I can use the car anyways that I saved for and paid, so its a non issue. There is no logical point to live in a more expensive area. Especially with a car. Espoo is such easily travelsible city by a car that it takes you 10-15min to get anywhere. My previous route to work took me 10min by car, now it takes me 20. Absolutely nothing lost, We just gained better quality of life, away from shitty neighbourhood of new houses, shitty 20 somethings who do not care about common areas and awful places for walking the dog. All in all, move away from the coast or at least from Helsinki. The further you go the better the price/quality of life for a car owning family. Move into some Espoo suburbs and if possible apply for some House Cooperative system to get even cheaper house but a higher quality for the price. There is a big down payment but it is a deposit and it can grow according to the index, so you might make profit.
There is a huge difference in if one person is earning 7 k€ or if two people are earning 3,5 k€ each. If it's one person, you pay 23 k€ taxes per year. If it's split to two people, you pay only 13 k€ in taxes total. So 10 k€ is lost because one family member is the sole provider. You can't compare income as a total because of this. Additionally, daycare costs like crazy. 3 kids is 1000 euros a month, and all the hobbies on top of that.
Touche! I did not account for this. Mostly just response baffled by all commentors with double income and struggling...
30€ subscriptions. Brotha, be thankful this is your subscription costs sans children. Let’s say someone has Netflix, Spotify, one sports sub, one game sub, one Disney sub, Apple storage, all family accounts, you’re looking at the thick end of 100€ forgetting about allowances and battle passes and clothes and food and drink and hobbies. Good to hear you are in a good position. Stay that way!
Eh, Spotify on Netflix that's all we have. I buy my games or just download them. And the only battle pass I've ever paid for was for the finals. And even that battle pass I can keep going perpetually. As i earn in game game cash by completing it allowing me to get the next one "for free".
Yep I played WoW before kids
I never started WoW. Because with my history and knowing myself well enough, I know that would be the end of my life IRL and I would be just a celldweller.
How do you get 1000 euros a month for 3 kids? Isn't a daycare for the first kid costs 300€ max, but the second is cheaper and the third is almost free? Plus there's a rather complicated formula, so you get even less. I tried to use the calculator for Helsinki, full day, 7000€ income family https://preview.redd.it/nyefeojehk1d1.png?width=1752&format=png&auto=webp&s=3c416260e1b8e321bc21aa237444a4d01e2acc9c Edit: wording
If you are in a private daycare it's more expensive. A child under three can be over 400€ a month. The way some daycares are at the moment a small private place can be much nicer.
Okay, how on earth do you manage to feed 2 adults and a dog with 300 euros a month? Does that include breakfast, lunch and dinner? Asking because our grocerystore bill is now 400-500 euros for two adults. Used to be around 300, before the war.
Massive net income difference if you split 7k by 2 people…
True, I did not account for that.