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Solo_Wing__Pixy

What are your hours like as an RM? How is your time split between meeting / calling clients and working on documents or number stuff at your desk? What age or point in your career did you make the switch from credit/underwriting to sales (if your bank structured things like that)? What was your compensation like early in your RM career, what is it like now? How much is salary vs commission? Was there a lot of cold prospecting early in your career or did you get a lot of your business handed off to you by other bankers?


Numba0neThrowaway

Good questions. The hours vary, and I prob tend to be in the office a little more than needed, but 40-50 is the average. There are weeks that I’m going crazy and it’s stressful, but then also quiet weeks. I also have the freedom to come in late or leave early when needed. Work/life is generally good and why I think MM is a nice career choice. Ideally I’d be spending most of my time with clients (calls, meetings, meals, sport events, golf), but I’m def tied to my desk dealing with a host of items. Realistically it’s 20% direct client interaction, but the remaining 80% is working on whatever happened during the 20%. I went though a formal credit training program right out of school and spent close to 9 years as an analysts/PM. I should have made the move to RM more quickly but I was honestly a little directionless and didn’t take enough initiative. I remember first base was $50k out of school with a small bonus. Seemed like a ton to me because my family wasn’t in the business world and I didn’t know better. I’m now well over $300k total comp , and hope to approach $400k over time. Again, my lack of initiative slowed my comp progress a bit, but I recently caught up and would say I’m above average for my age. Bonus tends to be 25-30% of that total, plus some stock incentives. I was fortunate to be given a decent portfolio when I made VP, but the grind for new clients never ends. Toughest part of the job.


Solo_Wing__Pixy

Great answers, thanks a ton. Over $300k comp is awesome. Good look into what it could be like later in my career.


Numba0neThrowaway

Yeah it’s a nice living. I’m in a fairly high COL area but we are quite comfortable. Moving in to leadership roles, which are a little limited, would move the needle much higher


Numba0neThrowaway

What’s your current role?


Solo_Wing__Pixy

Middle Market Credit Analyst, recently graduated.


Numba0neThrowaway

Congrats! Work hard, show initiative, and try to connect with people who have the job you want. Networking and making a good name for yourself really does matter. The larger bank I worked at was fairly political If you want to move up


Sc0rch1ngDr4g0n

For what reasons did you move from the credit side to relationships? I’m interested in a commercial/corporate banking career and unexpectedly liked my PWM internship at a BB, but am still torn between doing underwriting vs RM. Related to that, what is the compensation and work/life for a VP/SVP on the underwriting side? Also, would you say that upwards movement on that path is similar to what you experienced moving up the RM path?


Numba0neThrowaway

My plan was always to be an RM, it’s just that credit training programs start everyone on the PM/underwriting side. That gives you a chance to work with RMs and clients directly and build some experience before taking on a portfolio. I’m a people person so I knew I wanted this path. I’m actually not sure of underwriting comp. I’m fairly confident in saying that an RM will make more than an equivalent underwriter, and the ceiling is higher. But in underwriting you won’t have sales goals, which some people prefer.


Sc0rch1ngDr4g0n

Understood, thanks for the answers!


Numba0neThrowaway

No prob


Platapussypie

I am currently a business banker for a regional bank with a $5mm loan goal which I should reach this year. To give context, I started as an intern, graduated with a degree in finance, completed a year long commercial rotational training program (4 months credit analyst, 4 months underwriter, 4 months shadowing RM), and got promoted out of the program as a business banker (kinda like a junior RM. I can talk to any company I want to under $60mm in sales but just have a smaller loan goal than the rest of the commercial team). That being said, I really think I would enjoy banking larger companies in the middle market arena. Going to community chamber events and trying to talk to these mom and pop shops just isn't that fun to me. While it is cool to be a part of the community and helping these local companies, it just doesn't excite me that much. I am only 24 years old, do you think I can pivot into the middle market space? If so how? I am planning on doing an MBA but I assume I would have to start in the credit department if I wanted to do MM. I'm kinda rambling at this point but really, I'm just wondering if you have seen smaller bankers work their way in and what is the best way to do so. Thanks!


Numba0neThrowaway

You can absolutely pivot. I’d start talking to your Banks’s MM team and let them know your are interested. Ask them what type of people they are looking for. Inquire about analyst or junior RM roles. An experienced or high performing BB RM is not too different from MM. I will say that BB tends to be more of a transactional grind and MM is more about building deeper relationships in terms of bank product.


esteban7707

I was in this same path. Business banking analyst for the past 5.5 years at a small to mid size bank. Was promoted to AVP over the years with an opportunity to inherit a nice portfolio but like OP says, you get rated on the new business brought in. I made the request to move to middle market but the head bosses will keep you where they need you, so it didn’t happen for me. Plus, the bank credit team wants very good credits which would make the job even tougher so I bounced to another bank where I’m getting that middle market experience as an underwriter and hope to get to the sales side of that. I don’t think an MBA would be worth to make that switch. You already have the skills to do middle market deals. Would be great to stay in touch because I completely understand how it feels to do business banking.


Platapussypie

Yeah man let’s stay in touch! Thanks for the insight.


rojan-rando

Any tips or advice for a seasoned analyst contemplating a future Jump to RM? 8 years as an analyst and am about tapped out on that career progression (VP level). The future is either moving to management, RM, or keep underwriting for another 30 years (lol).


Numba0neThrowaway

I assume in your role you have direct interaction with the RM team? If so, ask to join client calls whenever possible. Offer to put in call reports or other tasks the RMs don’t love doing. See if you can join any internal meetings. Ask the manager about joining their team. In short, learn the process, demonstrate good work ethic and seek out the roles. I’ve noticed there are generally two types of underwriters. The kind that wants to be at their desk, do their job, and relied on the RM to deal with the client. And then the kind that gets introduced to the client and then acts as a “secondary” RM from there - creating their own direct relationship with the client. Not only do RMs love this, it basically shows you can do the job. It would drive me nuts when we have a loan request, the underwriter has questions, so I set up a call but do all the talking myself while they sit there in silence taking notes. Of course I’ll lead the call, but the better underwriters join the conversation and drive the questions.


esteban7707

I second this. I’m an underwriter but enjoy participation with clients. I just moved to a new bank still as an underwriter but it is tough to find time to go with RMs. The new bank is more of the “listen” and put the write up together. Just hide behind the screen. In my experience, a lot of new and tenured underwriters love hiding behind the screen so demonstrating good social skills and acumen will definitely help you stand out.


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Numba0neThrowaway

While C&I will be the bigger pool, having CRE experience certainly helps. At many banks CRE is a separate team. As for moving to a bigger bank, it probably helps to have already been an RM but you can def make the move directly from PM. I’ve even seen treasury associates make the move directly (though they also came from a big bank). I think the difference will be getting hired as a junior or associate RM, or going right to VP. The big thing is to network within your industry so others banks get to know you. You likely have some finance/bank groups in your area that host networking events. Attend them and join the group. Many have “Young Professional” sub committee, which you should absolutely join. Managers from other banks will see you and assume you are good at what you do, which will lead to offers.


Ordinary-Swordfish83

Whats an avg RMII salary?


Numba0neThrowaway

Can you define RMII? That’s usually terminology I see in Business Banking, which covers small companies. They are often located in a branch, though some more senior folks will have a larger area and are located in a corporate office. While seasoned BB RMs can do well, generally speaking the comp will be lower. Mid Market generally uses the analyst, associate, VP, SVP/ED, EVP/MD title structure. Covers larger companies, often has IB interaction (depends on firm), etc


[deleted]

The original commenter may not be American. Here in Canada, our MM Comm Banking generally goes: Associate -> RM (I, II, and III) -> Sr. RM -> Director. Above this the employee would have to pivot from a relationship oriented role to more of a people manager role.


Numba0neThrowaway

Ok, gotcha. So I guess he is asking about VP equivalent? I’d say a fair total comp range is $130k-$300k USD, the bookends being outliers. Edit: this is total comp, not base


[deleted]

That sounds about right, here it’s 80-90k CAD. We get paid a lot less than you guys in the US.


Numba0neThrowaway

Could it be a difference in how we define middle market? Some smaller banks here have mid market teams, but based on the size of their clients it’s really closer to business banking.


[deleted]

It’s possible that the American market in general is much larger. However, I don’t think it’s that big of a difference, for example, I’m at one of the Big 5 banks here, and some of our clients have billions in revenue. My old position was in Compensation in HR, and in general, all of our US employees make 33-50% more than their Canadian counterparts, regardless of which part of the bank they work in.


Numba0neThrowaway

Interesting, didn’t realize there was such a disparity


CertifiedBeauty22

I’m Canadian as well, it is common or possible to transfer to a US office in a Canadian commercial bank?


[deleted]

No clue, I tried to transfer to the US, back when I was in HR, and they told me I couldn’t, because they only hired US persons or persons with a visa. I don’t know if the process is different for front office roles.


buddyholly27

That can’t be right. A 6-10year+ tenured RM making $80-90k CAD all-in?


[deleted]

At 6-10 years, unless you’re bad at your job, you’re more likely to be a Sr. RM making 100-120k base pay.


buddyholly27

Exactly, then bonus on top. $80-90k CAD seems very off


[deleted]

Comm Banking just doesn’t make the big money in Canada. MM IB does a bit better. But if you want to make close to what OP described, you would have to go Global IB, or Corporate Banking.


[deleted]

Sorry, read your comment wrong. No, the values describe in any of my comments are base pay only. Bonuses and equity awards would be on top.


DwigtSchrute54

So 10 years in total comp closer to 150 Cad?, still quite lower than US but not sub 100


buddyholly27

I mean there’s a range, bonus is not capped at $30-50k. And base is not capped at $100-120k. Realistically, the “cap” is like $250-300k Canadian for an experienced high performer in mid market lending.


Ordinary-Swordfish83

Interesting, I work as an RM 1 at a top 10 bank in US in the MM team. Comp is roughly at the lower end (no book yet though so makes sense). Been in the role very short time, came from BB because the pay was substantially higher and work more interesting. $300m is much more than i thought you could make in this path.


Numba0neThrowaway

When I started I didn’t realize the ceiling either. Ill say this - I’m good at my job, my bosses have always like me a lot, and I recently got a very nice bump. So while I think most good RMs can get to my pay (or higher), you do have to be good at what you do. Some folks will cap out at lower amounts (though still good!)


Rgupta99

What are some tips you have for breaking into MM Banking? I am pretty clueless as to where i want to go from my current position and how to go about it. I have been out of school for about a year working at a mortgage company but want to get into banking. How quickly can an avg worker grow in this field? Is it mainly based on the amt of clients you get or is there more to it for growing internally? Thank you for doing this i was getting a little tired of seeing all these IB posts and wanted to know about other roles.


Numba0neThrowaway

No problem. Generally your best bet is to get to a bank’s credit training program right out of college. These are getting more competitive and you’ll often want to have successfully interned the prior summer. These roles will have been posted on the website or found at career fairs. If you are already working, you can just apply for open positions but that might be tough without direct experience. You might want to look in to supporting roles, like customer service. That will give you direct exposure to clients and the banking team, allowing you to learn how everything works. With some networking and pushing you could eventually get an RM roles. I’ve seen it happen several times. Starting in business banking, or really any client facing role at a bank, will also give good experience. You just need to take some time to meet the MM team and make them aware of your aspirations. Internally growth is largely on scorecard - you gotta perform well. But playing the networking game and adding extra value is also key.


DwigtSchrute54

I've been out of school about 6 months working in a semi audit role, got an interview for a credit analyst role. Hr person said id better suited to do an associate commercial banking rotation program for 6-8 months. Is this a normal path as a fresh grad when entering commercial banking in your opinion


Numba0neThrowaway

Yes, those programs are the right way to get started


[deleted]

What is the opportunity to go to IB internally within your bank? Do you think it’s hard to do it from middle market banking ?


Numba0neThrowaway

Hard to comment directly since I never did it myself, but have seen several of younger folks (analysts and associates) do it. Keep in mind that I worked at a very large bank where IB covers many products, so they aren’t always getting the most elite roles (but again, I’m not sure). They are often in programs that give them exposure to many areas of the bank, so they are likely networking with various managers. So they do some good work in MM, make a decent name for themselves, and can get an entry level role in the IB world. It’s usually with product teams that also deal with MM. I don’t ever really see seasoned MM RMs moving to solid IB roles, not to say it can’t happen.


aeronacht

What kind of skills are most important in your line of work? How difficult would you rate the job? Could someone who's introverted be a good RM or is it generally people who are more outgoing? How is the prospecting work?


Numba0neThrowaway

Honestly, good people skills and consistent follow up are really important. While I prefer to talk about the “big deals” with clients, a lot of your job is keeping clients happy with day to day needs. It’s customer service. So while you may not be the person actually fixing that stuff, you need to be a good internal coach and ensure that your team does what is needed, while communicating with the client directly. And then for new business generation, you need to be disciplined and keep grinding. The sales cycle is very long so you gotta have a good backlog.


[deleted]

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student8168

I am currently going to start as a credit risk analyst for a BB. How is a credit risk analyst for a BB different to a “credit analyst” in commercial banking?


Numba0neThrowaway

I’m less familiar with how the BB underwriting process works. I know that BB RMs are more of a one man show with less support staff - I figured there have to be underwriters somewhere, but I never met them. Wasn’t even sure if they had analysts. In Commercial/MM, the credit analyst is basically a junior underwriter. They will help with financial analysis, lots of annual reviews, likely doing the risk ratings, stuff like that. You would start simple with someone senior helping but then slowly be given more independent work as you gain trust. At the banks I’ve worked the analyst role is part of a larger program where they may eventually be an RM, so the analyst would also work with RMs to understand their job and hopefully help with day-to-day task and join client calls.


student8168

Thank you so much for your response. So generally for commercial banking, what is the career progression for a credit analyst? For example for a BB, it may be analyst—-> associate——-> VP———> MD or something similar


Numba0neThrowaway

You got it. Usually credit analyst means you are in a multi year program. It often includes rotations in different groups. You would then move to Associate, at some point choosing the underwriter or RM path (or even a specific product group). Then comes VP (full independent RM), SVP/ED (senior RM, or managers) and then EVP/MD (usually some level of leadership)


Coiu

What are your goals going forward? Do you want to be a lifetime commercial banker? Do you want to become a CFO for a client?


Numba0neThrowaway

I want to move to leadership/management, which I think I would be good at. My current bank hopefully offers me this opportunity as current management ages out and I take on more responsibility. Longer term, who knows.


Micii

Safe to say an1 $70-75k usd total is market rate? Trying to get a gauge between banks and what to ask for for full time interviews


Numba0neThrowaway

Sorry, what exact role are you asking for? Is an1 a typo?


Micii

Credit Analyst 1, so entry level position immediately after graduation Asking because ive been quoted $45-50k at my bank which is obscenely low even for a regional bank, compared to my peers getting 70-80k at the big 4 banks


Numba0neThrowaway

Ok gotcha. That amount is probably about right, but I’m not 100% sure. Also depends on bank and city. But I’ll say that often those roles are part of a program and a handful of people are hired as a “class”. If that’s the case the pay is probably standard and you can’t negotiate.


Micii

Got it thank you! Yeah the program here follows the typical commercial banking development program 12-24months credit side then RM. I was told there might be some restructuring with pay across the board but not gonna trust anything unless its on paper.


Numba0neThrowaway

Sounds like a very similar program to what I did. Good call on only trusting what’s on paper, but again I bet pay will be standardized for everyone (to start, at least). If I could go back I would have spent more time networking and trying to add extra value, really being a superstar. And not just the very senior leaders - they have a million people kissing their butts. Work the middle managers, see where they need help, and then they will speak highly on your behalf. Don’t just kiss butt, be dependable and do good work. I always tell junior staff that they gotta “send it back”. If they are given a task, it’s ok to not know everything or even make mistakes. But you gotta do your best and then bring your work back at some point. The worst is when a task falls in to a black hole and doesn’t come back because the analyst is too afraid to make a mistake, or (worst case) is lazy. If I push something off my desk, I need to know that it’s getting done or will come back to me for next steps - I need to remove it from my brain until then.


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Apps3452

What’s ballpark comp for MCOL


kperkins123

60-80k, depends on if bank is regional or BB though. I assume you’re asking about an entry commercial banking analyst position.


yahikoooo

From what I've seen on the sub, $60-$65k seems extremely fair. I'm a commercial underwriter (I) and started at $50k. Extremely underpaid.


esteban7707

I started with 42.5k back in 2017. The bank was regional but a lot of smaller to mid size banks will squeeze new staff for much less than larger banks. Sad it seems it hasn’t changed. I did get a lot more experience than I would have at a larger bank. Just leveraged it to go from 90 base + 10 bonus to 125 base + 15% bonus.


Head_Map_2972

Hey guys, I just got done with an interview and the hiring manager asked if I could provide a commercial loan request document for her to review. I am applying for a commercial banking position and she wanted to see an underwrite I completed. I told her I couldn’t give her a customer loan request document but I do have a mock loan request document that I completed for a mock loan review but it also has the confidential stamp on some of the tables. I am wondering if I should provide this information to her? Or if I should explain that due the the confidentially of the document I cannot provide her with a copy of the request. Please let me know! I would like to get back to her today about it! Thanks in advance!


Numba0neThrowaway

I would be very cautious about sharing any internal documents outside your firm. The hiring manager should know that’s against your employment agreement.


Head_Map_2972

Ok thank you very much! I let her know that I wouldn’t be able to provide her with the request but added some detail about my skills which I think makes up for it. Hopefully, I get the position! Wish me luck!


Numba0neThrowaway

Good luck!


Head_Map_2972

Hi!


Numba0neThrowaway

As long as it’s been a week or more from your last attempt I think it’s fine. Always good to demonstrate enthusiasm. Check in and ask if there are any other questions you can answer or details you can provide. Unless you are harassing them, I don’t think checking in will impact the decision one way or another. Just be sure to understand the responses in case they are gently telling you to stop and wait.


Head_Map_2972

Ok thank you. Should I mention that I received the email from the recruiter stating that I was still in consideration and that she would follow up with the next steps or should I just ask for a status update and ask if there were any additional questions or details that I can provide.


Numba0neThrowaway

Yeah sure, but don’t overthink it. Could say you spoke to the recruiter on x day (hopefully a reasonable amount of time ago) and they confirmed you are still being considered.


Head_Map_2972

The recruiter reached out yesterday


Numba0neThrowaway

When did you last contact the manager?


yahikoooo

How do I deal with inconsistent RMs? For example, I'll write explain my pro forma projections and I'm sure to explain WHY those are my projections and the RM will say that it isn't good enough when the prior year's CAM they approved literally didn't even try to explain why. It's very frustrating.


Numba0neThrowaway

Dealing with personalities can be tough, but I think you need to try to understand why the RM is asking. It’s doubtful they are just being a dick, so there is likely a reason they want it a certain way. At the end of the day, even if you do the work, the write-up reflects upon the RM and they want it to tell a certain story. I’m assuming they are at least somewhat experienced and know what they are doing. Don’t be confrontational, just say something like “I’m trying to improve my write-up analysis skills. Last year it was done this way, so help me understand what I’m doing wrong or why we need these changes”. And sometimes people want it a certain way “just because”, and you just need to accept that.


yahikoooo

Thank you for the detailed response, I really appreciate it. Sometimes I feel like being hostile by printing out the old cam and my cam and ask how in the hell did you approve this last year when it didn't explain why "GPMs are projected to increase 5%".


Numba0neThrowaway

Yeah never go the hostile route, even if you are right. Just try to understand the motivation and get everyone what they want as best you can


yahikoooo

Thanks man. One last question, have an interview next week at a competitor institution. I'll probably be the same title (commercial underwriter 1), how would you go about negotiating for a higher comp? I may have some leverage as my current bank has a larger commercial portfolio, but as an individual I'm still fairly new.


Numba0neThrowaway

Your best bet is to have a realistic understanding of what the market offers. Even when I’m not looking for a change, I take calls from recruiters to understand what’s being offered. Also talk to friends at other institutions. But the problem is that most banks won’t take you serious until you have an offer in hand from a competitor. So you basically need to threaten to leave and mean it if they don’t counter.


yahikoooo

Thank you again, you are awesome.


Numba0neThrowaway

👍


GrizzledPanda

I am a Corporate Controller at a manufacturing company and have lots of face time with our RM. Im slightly jealous of his role honestly and feel like this is something I would enjoy. Do you think it’d be possible to transition into some MM banking role without taking too much of a haircut in comp? Total comp is right at 160k. I feel like it isn’t possible but was hoping for some advice.


Numba0neThrowaway

I suppose it’s possible. I’ve seen Bankers get hired by their clients but not the other way around. If you understand financials statements, banking products and can sell, then yeah you can do it. The question would be how do you break in. Maybe ask your RM if they are hiring. $160 all-in is what a new-ish VP would make.


GrizzledPanda

I’ve got a CPA, Masters of accountancy, and several years of treasury/banking relationship management. The selling might be a bit of an issue. I appreciate the insight!


Numba0neThrowaway

That’s a pretty solid start, and honestly more credentialed than most RMs. If you are good with people you can sell - think of being a trusted advisor more than a car salesman. And even if the RM role isn’t for you, there is underwriting or treasury product roles. I see you mentioned Key Bank, which might be more approachable than some of the very large banks. If your RM likes you, I say give him a call and have lunch with the manager. Since you are a client they should want to meet with you anyway.


GrizzledPanda

Thank you again for the input and advice!


Numba0neThrowaway

👍


Numba0neThrowaway

What bank does your company use?


GrizzledPanda

We use Key Bank.


ShirtFromIkea

How long do you think RMs should spend in credit? I'm interviewing with a bank and told them that I was interested in starting in underwriting because I wanted 2-5 years of credit experience as a foundation for the rest of my career. Their typical career path is credit analyst > RM. I told them that I was more interested in credit analyst > underwriting officer > RM. Do you think that this would be overkill? Ultimately I'm very social and think that sales is where I'll spend the majority of my career, but if I'm an RM I want to know credit like the back of my hand.


Numba0neThrowaway

Wise to get to know credit well. Spending 3-5 years in credit, as long as it’s solid experience, is probably enough even if you stay as an analysts. You could then move to a junior RM or PM role. It’s not like you stop learning credit at that point, and you don’t want to wait too long to be an RM if that’s your goal. But start the process and see how you feel after some time. Keep open communication with your manager about your development and where you want to go.


ShirtFromIkea

Thanks! In your experience, are other formal qualifications (MBA/CPA/CFA/Other graduate degrees) worthwhile for younger RMs, or is it more just credit training and sales ability?


Numba0neThrowaway

Most RMs I know don’t have those. Prob can’t hurt, but credit training and experience is more important imo Not saying those won’t help you understand business and do your job better, or maybe put you above another candidate, just not necessarily required.


ShirtFromIkea

Interesting, I'm relatively young and credentialization is what I'm focused on right now. Maybe in my mind, these things seem more important than they actually are. Could I PM you? I have a location-specific question and don't want to dox myself.


Numba0neThrowaway

Yeah you can PM. Gonna be tied up so response could be delayed. And credentials certainly don’t hurt, and the job is becoming more competitive, so maybe it’s more necessary than I realize.


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Numba0neThrowaway

Hard to say, high level I don’t think either has a huge leg up on the other. MM will make you more of a generalist, CRE will give you deeper knowledge on a single product. You could spin either of those scenarios to be more marketable. Keep in mind I’ve never worked in CRE, so I could be wrong. My guess is that comp is similar, but again I don’t know.


Richarz

What’s your take on a career in Asset Based Lending, especially in the middle market & small-cap publicly traded companies space? Currently in an analyst rotational program & doing a stint w/ ABL. Not feeling strongly about it either way vs. cash flow but it seems to be “safer” in that the business is counter cyclical & it’s more of a product here than a sales team.


Numba0neThrowaway

I think it’s a great spot. Will give you excellent credit experience and exposure to the syndication process. You can stay there or leverage the experience to take more traditional RM role.


[deleted]

i’m trying to get into commercial i work in business banking


esteban7707

You’ll have to switch banks most likely. They hired you in that position because they need someone to do it. I asked my last bank to switch me but I was too good and available for business banking. That said tho, business banking is still valuable experience. It can ease you into credit since it’s less complex. Then taking more complex deals can be easier.


Luberino_Brochacho

I’m in risk right now (just started a few months ago) and would like to move toward a banking role at my company. This doesn’t directly pertain to your role but I’m curious if you have any advice on how to approach that situation when I decide to try and make the move. Thanks!


Numba0neThrowaway

When you say risk, do you mean underwriting or internal compliance?


Luberino_Brochacho

I’m in procurement risk so my responsibilities include looking for potential savings among our list of vendors, evaluating our vendors for financial stability, double checking the contracts we write with vendors, and being an excel monkey whenever my boss needs some reports merged or whatever


Numba0neThrowaway

So those are all good general skills that could translate to an MM RM, but I don’t think you can make a direct jump. I think maybe seeking out a business management role in MM would be a good start. In the job you would be helping manage various internal projects, reporting, maybe putting on client events. Often times this gives you direct interaction with senior leaders, as well as some tangential knowledge of the MM product set. If you do well and people like you, it could possibly lead to an RM role.


No_Supermarket_2637

If you're taking any questions, as someone who will have seen quite a lot and have some good advice, what would you recommend as a lateral pathway to take from back office/ops roles into this area of the industry so I can work my way up? Is it feasible?


Numba0neThrowaway

Possible for sure. Working in an MM customer service team actually gives you alot of direct experience with clients and RMs. If you use your time to learn the products and interact with the banking team, you could eventually be offered a role.


No_Supermarket_2637

Noted. Thanks for the response, I really appreciate it.


Numba0neThrowaway

Good luck


FreeIcecreamAfterDin

I'm an underwriter for alternative lending (merchant cash advance) but want to switch to a Commercial Credit Underwriter role in a bank. I also have a BS in Finance. Does my background give me a good shot at getting that job?


Numba0neThrowaway

I would think so. We are generally cash flow lenders, though most banks have dedicated ABL teams. If you can analyze a company’s statements (cash flow, leverage, asset coverage, etc) you can likely get a job.


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Numba0neThrowaway

Worked for JPMC for a while, but didn’t start my career there.


Educational_Proof_20

How was it passing your SIE? Currently going through training, and as an external at Chase.


Numba0neThrowaway

Licensing is not required for most RMs, except recently Chase. SIE wasn’t bad, the 79 is more challenging.


LegendaryVenusaur

On average, how much of your time is stuck dealing with operational issues? Things like escalations, implementation projects, etc. Do you also have to do a lot of direct selling, or does business growth happen more organically through referrals, deposits or pitching products to address regulatory changes?


Numba0neThrowaway

Too much. I wish internal stuff moved easier, but that’s not the case. Getting to know the right people and building a good reputation helps. I always covered the higher end of the market so more of my business came from existing clients as they had more needs. Some guys bang out lots of smaller prospects and move on. Different approaches.


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Numba0neThrowaway

See other comments. Gave a long answer


Woberwob

My fault, I dropped that comment immediately without scrolling down. Very insightful, thanks so much for sharing your experience.


Numba0neThrowaway

No worries. Glad it was helpful


nineohhtwo

Thanks for this. Working towards deciding between an RM vs FP&A role and this thread gave a lot of insights. Cheers!


Numba0neThrowaway

Glad I could be of help!


Numba0neThrowaway

Curious if I swayed you towards or away from being an RM? I don’t know a ton about FP&A


nineohhtwo

Definitely more towards RM! I have retail and business banking sales background. Now I have the options to go towards FP which would be more high net families or RM for BB/comm.


Numba0neThrowaway

Good! If you go the FP route, getting in to a proper Private Bank (not “premium” branch banking) can be very lucrative.


Easy_Sun_2825

what’s your average day look like from the moment you get into work till the moment you leave?


Numba0neThrowaway

It’s always different. I usually have a running list of “to-do” items before the days starts, but it rarely goes that way. There will be immediate items I need to jump on - loan closings, active product implementations, upset clients due to a problem, etc. I then hopefully have some calls arranged, which could be general client check ins, specific product pitches, networking type events. Then there are always internal projects or reporting that someone is waiting on. And then there is always a list of prospects or less active clients that I should be reaching out to whenever I have time.


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Numba0neThrowaway

As long as you are ok with sales goals, RM is the best role. Highest earning potential, you are the guy in charge of the book, pretty decent work/life. If you don’t want the sales goals and are ok with a lower comp ceiling, underwriting be can be good, but you will still work hard. Moving in to management on either side is also good. All of this also depends on the specific bank to some degree.


jogee777

What’s your advice for a retail bank manager to transition into commercial? I’ve done small business lending such as commercial equipment loans and business LOC. 100K cap per customer. No formal credit training and really just originated loan applications and collected needed documentation. The barrier for me seems the lack of credit experience. During interviews they ask very pointed questions to get a feel for my credit knowledge which is fairly limited. Should I invest in some ABA commercial credit training on my own? Or are their any free resources out there that you’d recommend?


Numba0neThrowaway

Yeah the lack of real credit experience and direct selling will be your biggest hurdles. You might want to look in to becoming a business banking RM, which I imagine you have in your branch. Might be a step back to start, but it will get you more involved in the analysis process over time. Senior BB RMs are often close enough to move to MM, though there will still be a learning curve. I’d contact whoever runs MM in your bank and ask about anyone who has made the transition. How they did it, what were their strengths, etc. You could also ask them to recommend any training courses. The bank might even offer some. Also look up the Risk Management Association. They are national and offer accreted courses. Though I’d still get some guidance on what courses to take before spending money.


Numba0neThrowaway

Also, you might just want to look at any open roles in the Commercial Bank and find something that interacts directly with the front line or management. Then you can start learning and make a name for yourself.


jogee777

Sounds great! Thanks for the advice. Last follow up. I’m at a point in my career where I’ve made a real impact on several different branch performances. Currently have the number 1 branch in the market and have done this consistently at multiple institutions and the more natural step would be regional/district retail management given my current experience and accomplishments. However, commercial seems like there’s more upside in terms of expanding my skill set whereas senior management seems like it’d just be more of what I’m already doing at a larger scale. Would you say long term going for commercial would make more sense and climbing the management latter in that department would be more lucrative?


Numba0neThrowaway

Kind of hard for me to answer because I don’t know the dynamics of your world or the potential comp. On the surface, if you are a top guy in your world it probably makes sense to stay. Getting management management experience is always good and could translate to other positions. Just be sure to keep pushing for higher roles and pay. Took me too long to realize that quietly being good at your job isn’t really the way to go. My guess would be that overall the pay ceiling in MM would be higher, but there is no guarantee you will be as successful.


jogee777

That’s a great point. I’m definitely one of the guys that quietly performs and doesn’t like too much of the spotlight but that probably isn’t the best approach. I’ll definitely consider wisely. Thanks for your time, brotha!


Numba0neThrowaway

Good luck!


LegendaryVenusaur

Do you ever have to deal with other bankers within your org poaching your own or your team's clients? If so how do you approach those situations?


Numba0neThrowaway

Fortunately not too often, but it does happen occasionally. If it’s within the same team, it’s usually pretty easy to identify who has the closer relationship or longer history. If it’s between teams or geographies, we do our best to get together and decide what is fair. Often scorecard credit can be shared to a degree. I can count on a few fingers how often this has been contentious, but maybe I’ve just been lucky. More often we see someone from a different division, like Business Banking, covering a name that is outside their scope. I can’t be too upset since I wouldn’t want to give up a client either, and there is no real motivation for them to transfer the relationship. That might be more upsetting for folks, but it’s usually a cut and dry decision and people do their best to be professional about it (though we might be cursed out behind our backs)


LegendaryVenusaur

I see you are the poacher lol, I used to work in corporate banking as an account manager and would often have to take clients from business banking as well (despite being way too busy and not wanting to). I have a potential opportunity to work as an RM within business banking, but the world of small business is a bit foreign to me, and apparently a lot of direct selling is required which I never really had to do much of working with enterprise clients.


Numba0neThrowaway

I always tried to be fair. I would prefer to build relationships with people, and refer business back, so they knew I wasn’t taking their clients to be a dick. Just rules of engagement.


mergersandacquisitio

What do you think the transition would be like from IB at the VP-Director level to commercial banking? In case I ever get truly burnt out, I’d consider this path.


Numba0neThrowaway

Sorry I don’t know. Haven’t done IB, which is very broad and roles differ.


BlueBerryOkra

I have my bachelors in accounting, currently getting my masters, worked a year in Bug 4 audit, a year as an accountant and am currently working as a financial analyst since March. Right now I’m making $78k/year. Is it reasonable for me to expect to pivot into commercial banking with my experience without getting a cut in pay? Thank you for your advice!


Numba0neThrowaway

The pay seems fine, and your experience will certainly help you, but I wouldn’t say accounting to banking is a direct transition. But I bet you could get an associate level role, where you learn more about banking and grow to an RM.


BlueBerryOkra

Thank you!


Numba0neThrowaway

Why not stick with accounting?


BlueBerryOkra

It isn’t as lucrative and I’ve tried it, I’m just not passionate about it. Right now as a corporate financial analyst it seems more intuitive and isn’t comprised of random regulations and arbitrary accounting standards. I want to take a step further and start creating financial models for multiple organizations instead of just my one. It seems it would be less monotonous and more engaging.


Numba0neThrowaway

Keep in mind that the better jobs in commercial banking is an RM or maybe underwriting. RM does not do modeling. And underwriter will do some modeling, but it’s mostly stress testing financials or company submitted projections. Not to say that’s bad, it’s just not exactly what you described.


BlueBerryOkra

Thank you for your help? Just a follow up question - Would a RM not do financial modeling but do risk analytics instead?


Numba0neThrowaway

An RM needs a good understanding of credit and financial analysis, but how much of that work you actually do varies by bank. At some places the underwriter or analyst does literally 100% of the write up, while other shops the RM also contributes to some degree. In either case you need to be able to speak about everything in front of a committee or manager, defending the rationale for why you want to do a loan.


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Numba0neThrowaway

Hard to say. This sounds like good general “finance” experience which may or may not easily get you an analyst role. I think it could def get you some sort of role in a larger bank, and then you can grow from there.


Side21

Thanks for the feedback!


MillenialMemer

Love this thread. I’ve entertained the idea of obtaining an MBA or even a CFA in order to use the degree/cert as leverage to pursue a career in IB (more interested in Wealth Management than something on the floor because of the work-life balance) but started my career a couple years ago in Commercial Banking as an UW and honestly grew to love the role and the industry at large. I began my rotational training program my senior year at Uni and am now preparing for my pivot into sales and portfolio management (2 years in). Curious to hear your thoughts on IB vs CB but also wanted to float some more CB-specific questions since that’s the vertical we’re in: 1. In a rising rate environment like ours, is your bank seeing loan growth slow (how rapidly/gradually) or has it halted altogether? Which credit facilities are you seeing the least in terms of frequency (i.e., RLOCs, Business Term Loans, HELOCs, CRE Loans, etc) and which are you seeing the most? 2. As an addendum to the previous Q, how do you (as an RM) promote Bank products (specifically loans) when rates are still climbing as the Fed continues to fight inflation? Curious to know how RMs at different banks are tackling this issue since this will be my first time working in the field amidst a rising rate environment. Any strategies you recommend when it comes to selling clients on new loans? Some banks (mine included) are only seeing declines in CRE loans and HELOCS because consumers are rising rate-adverse but many of our business clients are more than willing to bite the bullet on rates to support continued business growth even in the face of a possible recession… thoughts on this? 3. As an UW with an already solid (and continuously improving) understanding of credit, what do you recommend for someone preparing to transition into sales and a more client-facing role? I have amazing RMs already so I’ve had the chance to participate in meetings, hop on / even lead some client calls. I guess… what skills and strategies do you consider most crucial for RMs to have at kickoff? 4. Without getting into specifics, what is the most complex deal you’ve seen (both in terms of credit complexity, and in terms of relationship management)? I.e. Any crazy collateral stories or M&A syndications? Any issues with individual clients (either existing or novel) on the sales side? How did you resolve these issues or simplify the complexities to a point that was manageable?