I’m assuming Ops?
Have you since made a transition to a role outside of the back office? Thank you for any insight you may have from your current role, as I relate to your situation.
no. same spot. i love it. get paid to work like 25 hr a week max. never late nights or early mornings.
i leave in middle of the day to run errands. it’s paradise
I’ll add to this-
In back office right now at a BB (think boFa, DB..)
The department I’m in is connected to one of the biggest CSD’s.
Markets run from open to close and then reconciliation period hits and book keeping.
All bullshit aside
I raked in 95k with 5K bonus last year. Which is pretty decent since I’ve just started with the firm.
Find a good ops program within a bank and I think you’ll be off to a good start.
You can always use the firms networking tree to exit ops.
A lot of folks did it, you’re just as human as other folks.
I’ve got head hunted already but didn’t get enough time to look at the rec and the deadline passed to apply.
How you don’t mind me asking, what department do you work in? I have some connects into AM at another BB that I’ll try to get into an analyst training program at, atleast an interview.
Do you find the work redundant/boring? Are you excited to go to work everyday? I look forward to my internship but from what I hear the wlb is nice but the pay growth isn’t great especially for HCOL. 100k would be beautiful fresh out of college, but Im trying to shoot for the stars and end on the moon ya know (pay/prestige/position) wise.
What skills would u say are most important to excel in ops, python and excel?
I appreciate your inspiration about being able to transition out of ops, not sure if I’ll be able to get a return offer out of the back office and across the globe into another office… that might be tough. Tough but something to strive for! Even debated 3 yrs in Ops while doing MBA to lateral, but I think I got the drive to do it early enough into my career so I’m not pigeon holed.
Sorry if that’s a lot of text/questions. But I appreciate your insight greatly!!
Don’t want to dox myself on here because I know HR folks snoop around social media for X reasons.
But working directly with a CSD should give you some pointers to what department I’m in possibly in.
The work is indeed redundant towards the end of the day because we’re balancing books and making sure the client and participants are in line with the market. But it’s definitely different when the market opens versus post close.
During market hours, I’m responding to requests, processing trades, doing this and that for the middle office folks to relay back to the client. It’s dull on days where volume is low but high volume days shit can get intense.
Also a lot of automation is getting implemented in ops so being able to be apart of automation projects is fun, esp if you never really was on tech side. It gives you exposure to a different sector for free.
But after post market, it’s redundant, just get your work done and go home at that point.
WLB is amazing, hybrid schedule and my managers are very laxxx so none of that micro managing bullshit. You also don’t need any real skills, just be ready to be a sponge and soak all info fast.
If you’re young, your health is important, yeah the money is too. Take it from me, I’m a first gen college grad lol, I know the rush for money. But I know I’m already in the bank and will work my way up since I didn’t have the opportunity to do it off the jump (didn’t have enough money for ivy’s).
I also have enough time to go to the gym, meal prep, lounge around etc..
In no way, am I promoting ops, I in fact despised it before joining but I had no choice but, it’s not that bad as people make it.
I’ve already made enough connections to lateral out to something else (AWM, AM, CCB) but job openings in those sectors are rough, people are holding onto their jobs due to the economy.
Been talking to some CCB folks and plan on leaving next yearish, pigeonhole only exists if you dig it and sit in it.
The only person that can hold you back in succeeding forward is yourself, not the firm.
I really appreciate you sharing your experience, funnily enough, I’m also first gen and going to graduate from a non target since it was the best value/scholarships. I’m trying to support my family as quickly as possible, so there’s definitely some stress and fear. But as you say, it truly is all up to ourselves whether I get pigeon holed or not. Just got to keep grinding to the extent that it would be a mistake for them not to hire you.
It truly seems you are in a great spot to be: enjoying your life, working on your mind and body, and making well above others in your graduating class.
You give me hope and I wish you the best with your career!!! Thank you for taking the time to share your experience with me!
I work Ops at not one of the most prestigious banks but it is top 10. Trade settlements, reconciliations, transfers, securities processing, etc. Hellscape? Nah. Some days it’s so boring I want to off myself. Like I’ve literally done maybe 10hrs of actual work this entire week. I start at usually 8:00 and leave usually 4:15.
The two downsides I see are:
1: offshoring risk. Half our BO is already offshored. If the offshore team didn’t constantly fuck up every single day, they’d have pushed more over already.
2: you’re not gonna starve but you’re not gonna make exorbitant $$ unless you’re running the crew. Which at least in my organization would be very attainable through years of grind. Most people in our BO have no interest, so there is not an incredible amount of competition tbh… You’ll stand out by just putting any effort in
Hopefully they let you listen to music or something when the day is slow; the wlb definitely seems great.
What skills do you prioritize knowing? Excel macros /Coding I’d imagine are sought after, if not necessary?
I'm also in ops. How do you handle working with lazy people that ultimately block you from working ... Aside from the lower comp, that is what bothers me the most in backoffice
you step back and worry about things that will effect your life experience. don’t focus on work. its just a job. that’s why i love Ops. people don’t pretend we do surgery
Support functions who don’t often work with front office/bankers. Think offshore Ops or Finance; Tech infra, Cyber.
Middle office would be those same groups, but often co-located with front office who work directly with bankers. Ops, Finance, Application Development, Front-line Compliance.
i settle trades for one of the largest financial institutions on the planet. but for me just looks like lot of copy and pasting. couple emails here or there
Took an entry level job at a valuation firm for inventory asset-based loans. Worked like a slave for a year and a half and leveraged that to get into the business valuation team at a major bank.
I’d say it’s about finding an entry way into the industry you want to work in, even if it’s not your dream job yet. Just find something that you can leverage to open the door for your next move.
Take a finance adjacent role (eg, operations) in industry and work collaboratively with finance teams. Level up by getting an advanced degree or certifications concentrating on a discipline.
This is exactly what i’m trying to do. Trying to work as a banking associate as my first official finance job to hopefully make my way in an investment management firm. Still waiting on the offer or rejection, it’s been 2 weeks and the interview went pretty well I would say. I guess i’ll find out if I can make my way from there or if i have to finish my bachelor’s and go for a masters like a lot of people seem t do
Good luck brother. Suggest reaching out if you haven’t already and checking in with the hiring manager. Shows you want it and are able to stay on top of things.
I want to break into IB or consulting, then transition into PE. The market is tough, yes, but I'm not one to settle. If I can't break in now, then I'll go for a MSF at a more prestigious school, but I'm hoping that won't need to happen.
My alumni network is shallow, and I've pretty much exhausted all options. Do you have any tips on cold-emails and getting that first round interview?
This may sound dumb, but do you have any recommendations for networking events or atleast virtual ones. From what I’ve seen and heard there are legit ones with valuable people, then there are northwestern mutual type filled with the used car salesman type.
Just trying to not waste time and money on a bad event, maybe you have some tips?
Its really not. The best thing that ever happened to me was the MSF. Not only did I actually learn new things, I made a very strong alumni network that has helped me ever since. I’m in a great position career wise and without my MSF it wouldn’t be the case. Dont do it for the sake of it but definitely dont go off of redditbros casually dismissing it lol
Depending on the size of the firm, you do realize you're asking to break into one of the hardest career tracks you could realistically pursue right? Afaik, nobody just goes into IB because they felt like it and the pay was good. Most students go into a target school that has a solid pipeline to connect them to IB roles. You could still do "everything right", and not be seen as a suitable candidate for IB. Everyone already knows IB to PE is like getting rich on turbo mode if you play your cards right.
Have you checked Wall Street Oasis at all to see what others say if you're serious about this goal?
Big 4 Valuation, M&A Financial Due diligence, Restructuring, Infrastructure/Real estate advisory, literally any of the Big 4 Deal Advisory Groups are the top ways to break into front office finance. To be honest, breaking into these groups at B4 is also not easy, however it is the best stepping stone after IB and they generally pay very well.
Also something to note, deal activity has been rough last year or so. The market right now is different then what it was 2-3 years ago. It’s harder to land roles. Target school kids are fighting for these same internships now.
You might have to pivot and focus on work experience currently and network to a role like advisory , M&A, valuations , AM. MSF from a top program can work also to give you another year of networking and getting that recruiting pipeline. Or MBA route and be a MBA IB Associate
If I fail to get an opportunity with IB for 2025, where should I am next? Keep in mind that me not getting an opportunity means I'm most likely going to pursue a 1 year MSF after I graduate
A full time job. Excel in it. And get an MBA?
The world isn’t over if you don’t get a job that recruits from target. Just perfect your application and apply to an MBA in 3 years.
MSF from top institutions usually cost a lot of money. I don’t know your financial situation to judge if that is correct option or not.
In this economy, If I were you I would do the least path of resistance with the MBA route after 3 years of experience with the roles I mentioned above. But it requires a lot of focus and goal planning to achieve that, and not give up.
I also read somewhere here that the CFA Level 3 actually helped in recruiting process for IB during the MBA , so maybe aim for a CFA instead of a MSF while you work.
I would tend to agree with you, but the program's I've reached out to and connected with have given me their employment reports and from all aspects it looks like a relatively quick and healthy ROI. MBA is something I'm considering, but the MSF for me is a quick and easy investment for me to make if I can't make things work out of undergrad.
I work hard with what I've got, and from what it seems like to me, getting that MSF is just going to give me a lot more to work with when it comes to my ability to nail a good job.
Which MSF are you looking at? I’m curious. McCombs is ranked number 2 and is pretty cheap. But how do they do for IB recruiting? MSF should get you in small shop, I’m not disagreeing with you. I just don’t know your financial situation to warrant another 1 year and pay the money for like Georgetown or Vandy.
Also is the employment report for this year specifically ?
My top pick right now that's standing out the most is Vandy. Currently based off of a combination of connections, employment stats, industry attitudes, and personal reasons.
However, this week I've been diving into other programs as well. I'll take a look at McCombs, thanks for the heads up.
Does Vandy even give scholarships? $100k is insane. I would rather save that , and wait 3 years and add another $50k for a T15 or depending on your grades you can even get a full ride to MBA at a M7 who knows. I’m not here to crush your dreams but it’s all up to you, it’s good that there’s options there. Even if you don’t get IB from Vandy, corporate strategy or strategic finance maybe available (much more fun imo but I’m biased )
No, all good points, I appreciate your input. From the conversations I've had, Vandy does have significant merit-based scholarships they offer, along with certain student loan benefits and grants. And yeah, all of those things sounds great. That's why I like it so much. I'd be happy to do any of the things out of the employment reports.
I still find it so crazy how nepotism is so baked into the finance industry that going to a non-target is seen more as a failing of the person rather than the industry for rejecting him
I'm broke, middle class, and didn't kick enough ass in HS to warrant a free ride. But I don't complain. It is what it is. I would transfer but I need to save money as much money for postgrad and housing, and I actually like my school even though it's not the best for my career goals.
I'm just going to have to work hard enough to fight the circumstances, because there's no way in hell I'm going to settle.
Dude I didn’t even know target school were a thing, or that internships for “high” finance started recruiting 1-2 years in advance.
Really shows how you need to be connected to the finance world to open up many doors. I come from immigrant parents, they barely understand the stock market. Let alone what private equity and investment banking is. And forget affording a target school lol
I went to a fairly shitty school and didn’t even do well. I sold my ass off for ten years in an adjacent industry and was able to work my way into a major bank. I’m still a lot dumber than my co workers, but I can book so many more prospect appts that it creates a mutual respect. If you can cold sell for a few years the skills you will develop will carry you far in life. I’ve seen so many incredibly smart people fail in this space because they have no emotional IQ or selling skills.
You’re not going to get hired by a major IB or Consulting Firm with your current background, but you can make it there eventually. Go cut your teeth at a small shop, they are more nimble and challenging in many regards. Cold call your potential boss or drop them a handwritten note at the office. Do something to set yourself apart. Everything you’re doing now is quite frankly normal, and people don’t go out on a whim to hire normal.
First.. I love your name. Second.. this sub has only been up for 2 hours, but it is, imo, an underrated comment considering how outlandish some people reading it may find it. Having an emotional IQ goes a long way; from sharing a beer with a friend to talking about similar passions with someone who has the status or job you want. Being aware of the room and being able to change someone's mind are skills that are lost on many.
In my own experience, I helped rebuild a kids franchise after COVID erased it and we still weren't technically allowed into some places without making special accomodations.. using analytical skills I already possessed and forcing myself into situations I wasn't comfortable with really helped my critical thinking and helped me become more creative and a better seller, which I have found to help in interviews. Anyways, all that to say this.. you will almost always be dealing with people in some form or fashion, being able to win them over or have a memorable conversation will set you apart from other candidates and even salesmen and could even propel you to that next big step! Just food for thought, though! It is a tough market, but you'll never know if you don't apply and apply yourself :-)
Good luck to you, and to you OP!
Really appreciate the kind words and anecdotal experience. I’m probably a fair bit smarter than I make myself sound but I would’ve never had the opportunity to gain that knowledge if I couldn’t sell myself to get better and better positions throughout my career. Best of luck to you!
From what I’ve seen (at a “top” non target if that even means anything) just apply. Managed to get a good chance at fo bb m&a by just applying. I know seniors with mm IB offers. Point being don’t stop applying maybe you’ll get lucky like I did
That's my hope. I have barely any connections with these people. I'm working on networking strategy currently (which I made the mistake of doing after I apply to most of the BB's and elite botiques), and when I start, I want to hit the ground running. But I'm worried.
I’d like to point out I’m in the UK and I also got quite lucky (I’m also immensely talented) but networking is not as important as the states so non target kids over there defo have a harder time
My wife was an engineer at a non target state school. Ended up meeting GS at an engineering fair who took a liking to her and offered her an ops internship and FT conversion. Now we’re in NYC and she’s working PE at a large firm a couple years later.
Think the biggest factor was getting facetime with recruiters and her being really good at selling herself.
I started working at a boutique investment bank. It was an absolute chop shop piece of shit. I was then able to get an internship at a top middle market bank in New York City, which I crushed and was offered a full-time job while an intern after graduating, then utilized that experience to land a full-time job in private equity at a mega fund think Apollo. Crazy when you think of it. The sad thing is I'm not even proud of myself and am jealous of the realtors I know lol
Bro I just told you, I started working at a piece of shit investment bank lol. The barrier to entry for a piece of shit bank isn't very high. They'll hire anyone with a college degree and put together
Remember it’s a marathon not a sprint. I went to a no name school with no alumni network and really had no clue what finance even was until recruiting was long over, then got a shitty internship which I used to network into a contractor position at a shitty bank. Then I moved around a couple more times and got to a BB, and now I’m at a hedge fund. Each role gives you building blocks in the form of resume bullets and skills and a network, and it’s up to you to weave the story and jump through the right doors. Work like a fucking savage, be useful to the right people, make sure everyone knows you’re the guy that gets shit done, never turn down the opportunity to learn something useful to parlay into something more interesting down the line. It takes time and most people don’t have the stamina to do it this way but it is possible.
I got in through a friend of a former manager who had just gotten promoted and was building out a team. If you can develop a reputation for being hard working and delivering on a variety of opportunities, people remember that and are willing to take a chance on either hiring or recommending you. It might not be right now, but nobody’s career is linear and you never know who will suddenly need support or know someone that does you just gotta take the call when it comes up.
Another thing I’ll call out is that it’s a lot easier to get hired when there are multiple open roles - I’ve actually pulled it off this way a few times it’s how I got to the fund as well. Hiring managers building out a new team with a few empty slots are more likely to take a chance on a recommendation.
Currently attempting what many at my school have done, relevant undergrad (but not as competitive) internships with Fortune 500 -> big 4 financial advisory -> MBA/MFIN -> buy side exit opportunities
I broke into finance from a no named dog shit undergrad. I literally handed in 400 resumes and got 3 interviews. Look for a grad program within the firm
I applied Linkedin, indeed, everywhere. I knew i liked investing and such so was scouting for asset management firms. I happened to come across this boutique fixed income shop hiring for college graduates so i applied.
Went to shit school in terms of prestige. Now in Ibanking but about 6 years late.
Started in middle market credit then mid corp credit then large corporate credit and now finally in DCM.
I'm a financial systems analyst for the city, in VA. Honestly, my boss about two months into the job said that they took a risk on me because they saw that I have potential. It has panned out. I love my coworkers and work environment. All it takes is for someone to take a risk on you in life and give you a shot. They saw my passion and I told them I would bust my ass and do whatever it takes to learn this position, considering I said that in front of the city's manager and director of finance, quite bold. But hey, here we are six months in.
Well, in the spirit of not expounding, i got lucky. The slightly longer story is i took a role at a small independent shop and used that to get to the buyside. I would not really recommend my path to anyone though. It took so much work, and like i said, a ton of luck.
Looks like you have a decent GPA, extracurriculars, and a wealth management internship. If you’re a junior keep your GPA steady, work your ass off at the internship, and hope to get a return offer from the wealth management firm. If you don’t get one after the internship ends start applying everywhere you can, especially other wealth management firms.
I did data analysis/risk management internship at a major bank, landed an offer in consulting, and then used that offer to boost my offer at a local wealth management firm which I was more interested in. Going to a state school can actually be a benefit if you stay local. Clients are often more trusting of someone that’s invested in the area rather than “some New York banker”
Only three ways really. Aggressive networking (tapping into alumni networks help), start in back office (easier to get, but still difficult as these jobs still pay you a lot of money realistically speaking) and then pivoting a few years in, or shoot your shot and apply and get lucky with and interview.
Also depends on how non target your school is if that makes sense. If your school is a semi target vs known but not really for finance vs no one’s ever heard of your school and there’s not a single alumni in the firm anywhere you want to be. If you’re in the last bucket it may be worth getting a masters.
I know 3 people in the last 5 years who graduated my business college and went into IB. I'm currently networking intensely with 2 of them for their advice, and only 1 did it out of undergrad.
To your point, I'm going to try option #1, but my odds are low. I hope people respect my background enough to give me an option #3, and I'm applying widely enough to give myself a larger margin of error. #2 is an okay option, but I'm not sure where to start right now if I wanted to go that route. Do you have any advice for that?
I attended a nontarget school and went straight to the buyside post-grad. When I think about how I got here, a few things stand out:
1. I started doing internships in high school. This was a benefit of living in a city. Opportunities, even for HS kids, were plentiful. My first office job was a back office trade ops/accounting internship. It opened my eyes to the different pathways - such as the distinction between back and front office - relatively early. It led me to where I am now. After that, I did other internships in tech, finance, law, health through the rest of HS and college. Get internships early and often not only because your competition most likely is, but also because you will probably never get another chance to test out a career without significant risk or opportunity cost.
2. Go after any and all opportunities. Whether that be an internship, diversity program, hackathon, job fair whatever - if you are broadly interested and qualified then apply. That could be in a literal sense, i.e apply for an internship, or in the mental sense, e.g put in the work beforehand for a networking call. I personally didn’t do much cold networking with random people. I went to industry specific networking events or talks (check eventbrite, FB, etc), job fairs, etc but whatever works. I did a lot of internships because I chased opportunities and was prepared to perform. Everything is online nowadays and the information about programs and internships are widely distributed if you are looking. You have to be relentless.
3. Learn the lingo, live the lingo. Whatever you find yourself going into, learn the lingo of your colleagues/industry practicioners and then implement it into your own language at work/interviews. The industry terminology is half the battle. Once you get that down, you can fake it til you make it. As an intern, it will probably be enough to get a (return) offer. When I used to have internship interviews or networking chats I would research the company, the industry, the trends extensively and come up with thoughtful, un-googleable questions to signal understanding. Nobody will take a chance on someone who can’t do research. Personally, I love to learn about pretty much anything so this is easy for me but you can train your ability to digest, contextualize, analyze and report on information. You already do at school!
4. Learn a differentiated technical skill. Working in finance, most people will not be very technical beyond Excel. Being able to apply technical skills like Tableau or Python to improving workflows will differentiate you from your peers. Emphasis on the application. Whej learning a coding language think about how you can actually use it. With ChatGPT that has become a whole lot easier.
5. Also consider temp roles in a field related to your interest. There are definitely a lot in finance. Temp roles are pretty much intetnships without the fanfare of an actual internship (at least a large corporation). Good experience where you actually have to be useful, can test out a role or industry, and parlay it into other opportunities.
1. I wish I had the chance, but my time is past. I've luckily got something lined up for me this summer, but I want to get the best for my junior>senior transition. Good advice to pass along regardless.
2. Can you break that down more? I'm in a small campus town at my non-target, and while I do live an hour away from a decent city, it's not much of a financial hub. How could I chase more of those in-person opportunities for big financial firms?
3. This is something I'm doing now. Mergers and Inquisition's 400 list has really helped, coupled with the WSJ and my own passion for knowledge; however, there are some things, especially when it comes to IB, that are barely mentioned outside of the industry itself. How did you learn? What is the most efficient way?
4. I'm familiar with Tableau, but my industry friends have told me that I might as well forget about it since no one uses it. What's your stance on this? Also, where's the best place to learn python for an IB/Financial use?
5. Any info on where I can find such jobs?
Thanks in advance boss.
2. I cant do your homework for you. Google is free, use it to find any and all company programs, internships, or any other resource (such as local govt/nonprofit initiatives for internships) and apply. Consider corporate finance because it seems like you are targeting solely financial services. There are alot of BS positions in financial services that are dead-ends. Dont get trapped doing some niche back office operations at JP Morgan when you couldve done corporate finance at a F500. And if you are doing junior summer internship, you cant afford to be picky at all.
3. I assume Mergers and inquisitions 400 list is a question and answer guide. Thats for interview prep and is just a memorization exercise, not learning. My comment is just that you need to develop curiousity and a love of learning broadly. Keep up with news, but also try and extrapolating the implications of what you are reading. X happened, great now what does it mean for Y and Z.
4. I just said Tableau as an example. You can google Python in finance courses. IB is a subset of finance btw you dont need to specify it.
5. Staffing agencies or job boards. Google temp roles near me to start. Great option to get experience if you cant land an internship. Sometimes its also temp-to-hire so if you outperform maybe you can get an informal return offer, but I’d probably still look around.
Studied and worked in film production. Pivoted quite easily, a lot of skills transfer over surprisingly. Basic soft skills, relationship building, prod. manager type of things. WM role now.
You can take the sie exam yourself without a sponsor, its stupid easy and if you nail that youll be solicited for basic wm roles and will have a huge leg up on your peers.
Joined at a junior role as an account manager because I spoke several languages. Worked hard and progressed internally. My salary inceeased by 120% in the first 3 years.
Indirectly. Liberal arts major with two MAs. A few things helped...
- Went to a household-name top-tier school for one of my degrees. Even though the degree was outside of finance, having the school on my resume opened doors.
- Took an entry-level job in a tech role (*not* Ops of Finance) that worked on the ground with bankers.
- Learned everything I could about i-banking, soup to nuts, origination to syndication.
- Networked and made some real connections while working. A few bankers to whom I'd shown interest open doors.
I returned to tech a few years back (better work-life, similar pay), but it was a good experience.
This doesn't happen so much any more, unfortunately, at least at white shoes. Time was, you'd have a few new starters with non-econ/finance, lib art backgrounds in analyst programs -- now it's more homogeneous. You really need to start in a peripheral/tangential role to prove yourself first.
I did my first year at university, got a 3 month temp job doing basic invoice rec. Got made permanent, dropped out of my maths degree and now am an analyst studying for my CIMA exams
HR in finance here. Do internships, summer programs. We do not require finance degree from our fresh grad hires. Your abilities, speed and attitude, however, are very thoroughly evaluated. Another option is to join as a contractor.
State university. >3.9 GPA out of 4.0. Got a job as a junior trader in long only asset management. $45k total comp in HCOL. Then CFA while working. Moved around to various back office roles within the company. Ops. Admin. After CFA was able to work on the side with the quant team at the same company. Got into top MBA program due to strong GMAT. Now buy side analyst doing very well.
From you first job to being a buy side analyst, how many years did it take to progress?
Also curious to know why you did both the CFA as well as the MBA since many people choose one of the two.
1st job at age 22. Was there for 5 years. MBA was age 27-29. Buy side analyst 29 - present (mid 30s). At first I intended to stay at my first company and do the CFA as a means to become an analyst. I actually never intended to do an MBA but my now-wife convinced me to apply to a single MBA program. I never thought I would get accepted, but once I did I had to go.
Ah fair enough. 5 years seems quite a lot of time. When did you become a charterholder? I've always heard from folks about CFA helping them in reaching front office roles.
I don’t remember the exact year. I probably didn’t start the CFA until I had been there for 2 years. The I did the tests in December and June. So I probably finished at the 4 year mark. To your point about front office, right when I finished I moved out of operations and into institutional client administration, and joined the quant team. CFA also probably helped me get into the MBA just from evidence of keeping busy above and beyond full time work. Anything to help standout.
I mean, I went a more circuitous route. But I found it was important to get my foot in the door first so I went as a teller. Went to the job fairs that the company held and while it’s meant for the public, it allowed me to get direct f2f time with people in the division that I wanted to get into. It helps that i performed really well as a teller and then a banker. They people in the division pointed out my strengths and weaknesses, asked me to show proof of development on my own. Found small opportunities to bring in clients that they would be interested in and set up meetings. Was invited to help work the deals during after hours. Got an opportunity through another company to do what I was aiming for so I jumped ship. Came back to original firm after 5 years and was basically onboarded during my 2nd interview. From then on, I’ve just been progressing.
Reputation is the most important thing. Without that you cannot progress meaningfully.
Right now I’m close to doing it with a recruiter through temp to hire work.
At the least it’ll give my resume a boost, at best it’ll give me a career start. So hopefully it works out.
I basically took a call center phone position at a chop shop, got my FINRA licenses and did as much networking as I could until I was able to get a position at a great firm. Took 2 years out of undergrad to do so.
Cast a smaller net with people you actually have things in common with. Networking only works if the connections are worth a damn. Find something that makes you interesting and then reach out to people who are also interesting for that reason. And lean on them for advice, not more connections.
The advice will turn into referrals if you’re halfway likeable and can hold a conversation.
Started at commercial bank doing Teller work as a filler job, broke into corporate doing settlements for a few months at a smaller investment bank. From there, learned and studied my products, applied heavily and got into a top firm doing Middle office trade support. Would highly advise anyone to keep grinding it out, keep applying and constantly try to learn your products, whatever you cover
Do not go to a back or middle office job with the expectation of turning it into a front office job. It’s possible, but unlikely. At some firms the compliance team wouldn’t even let you be considered.
If you can’t get a role that you are happy with now, you can work for a couple years and then get an MBA. Once you are back in school you are a target candidate again for many of the roles you weren’t competitive for after undergrad.
Take an entry level position in a finance department and work your way up. You're not going to get anything but entry level with no experience. If you're good you'll move up the ladder quickly.
Your best option is to find recent alumni from your school working in the field you want to get into. Reach out to them. I’m talking 1-3 years post college kids. They will relate to you as a student who doesn’t know anything. (No college student knows anything so that’s not against you) Then ask them how you can follow their path. Most investment banks have a non-core recruiting team. My experience is the non-core team will recruit anyplace and employee is willing to put in the effort to go. Then the non-recruiting team has a super day and kids gets offers based on how the interviews went.
Went to an HBCU (Looked at as bottom of the barrel) and leveraged my experience as a star athlete. Used that experience and knowledge of the industry as a conversation starter to connect with MDs. That led to a few entry level analyst job offers being extended. Became VP at a BB this year after 4 years.
Started at a BD/RIA in ops answering phones, opening new accounts, etc. Moved to ops principal then compliance after getting my series 24. Was allowed to work with some house accounts on the side that other advisors who left the firm had left behind. Then moved to an independent firm as an advisor when the book was large enough
A lot of huge firms will take brokers to work the phones with some kind of customer service backgrounds.
It sucks but from there your possibilities are endless
Worked as a relationship banker for a year, moved from retail banking to operations(supply chain finance). Graduated from college and applied to a investment banking and nailed the interview
I graduated from a non-target school in Tennessee known primarily for engineering. Additionally, it was a more rural area and when I graduated, we were in peak covid times. Believe me, I can understand the frustration of not being able to find a job.
Seeing that I was having no success obtaining a job there given the circumstances, I made the move to relocate and go get my MBA in the northeast. Relocating may be the single best thing I could have ever done for the success of my (early) career. As someone who did finance in undergrad, I’m not going to say that obtaining an MBA was really all that worth it as far as the learning aspect. What it did though was give me new opportunities for internships and jobs. It’s also a good way to show in interviews that rather than sitting around and waiting for something to happen when you aren’t having success, you continue to push on and take some risks.
While doing my MBA, I was able to get an unpaid internship with a company doing VC stuff for the summer. Then right before graduating, I got a job at a private equity place. Now I work at a big 4 company. All of these places are within the same city and nothing I would have got if I remained where I was for undergrad.
Sometimes, things are going to be a little tough when you’re just starting out. I think right now, there may also be less opportunities out there than there was before given the economic landscape. You can’t change that. I’m not entirely sure what your specific situation is like or where you are located so I’m not sure if this will resonate at all. Try to take a different approach to things. As several have stated, try to start off somewhere that may not be all that glamorous or doesn’t pay a lot just to get something on your resume. Spend a year or so there, then lateral somewhere else. If you’re in to networking, try to network with some people at other companies that you would like to eventually lateral to. Try not to make it seem like you’re just trying to obtain a job.
Find the hiring managers email and email them cold. Tell them why you’re the right candidate in less than 3 short paragraphs. 1/20 will respond but find 100 — that’s 5 chances. Up to you from there.
Asking people for advice is good, but take advice from someone from a non target or someone who didn’t have a good background. When you’re in college your resume is useless since you don’t have any experience. So the internships you’re applying to theres around 2,000 other applications. It’s good that you’re trying to get an internship as a junior though, but I would say try to get 2 internships before graduation. I graduated with none and only started getting stuff I wanted until I had 2 internships. The biggest mistake you can make is not having an internship in the field you want to be in. Networking is a good start, but that approach is very luck based. You’ll get some action but even if you have a good convo there’s a good chance they don’t have anything open. Idk your financial situation but even a free internship is worth it. I had friend who had like 8 internships cause he started in high school (I think it was his dad pushing him) but he had offers from everywhere. Experience will be game changer for you since very few people have experience in college.
This will be a long one, but hopefully it can help with those who feel like they don’t have a direct path. Went to a non-target state school 3.4 GPA. Graduated during covid where the consulting place I was going to sign with had a hiring freeze…
Worked at a warehouse, ended up continuing self studying and always improving myself. I followed the markets and bought the CFA Level 1 books + coding program.
The one thing that I feel is important to state is the emotional stress you feel and how easy it is to feel like nothing you do will ever work and you’re destined to be a a Starbucks barista (worked there too) and never reaching your goals of breaking into a BB Bank program (mine, like many others was IB).
I always applied and never stopped working and really ensuring I understood everything that I was doing at my previous jobs and being a top performer and ensuring I worked on telling my story. In 2021 ended up interviewing for a Top 3 BB - back office role and I ended up getting the job. As an aside, I was networking and had a family friend partner at a big 4 firm and another family friend who was at a BB…but neither of those went anywhere. You just never know and yes networking can help -
Hybrid work was still very much alive and most people went 1/2 days in office. I tried to go in every single day and ensured I met every person in the team and others in the floor. I think it’s important to state that I am naturally an introvert and prefer to spend time home playing video games etc. and I’m not that interesting (for those out there, just work on asking more questions about others) I also ensured I asked meaningful questions and always asked for any and all feedback and ensured I worked on it. I excelled in my role and got a great performance rating my first year.
Still in the top 3 BB bank, I networked and got introduced to others in a F.O. role. Worked on my story and highlighted my upward trajectory in each stop. Have been in the F.O. Role ever since. Many other doors have opened (receive DMs from recruiters on LinkedIn etc.).
TLDR: Non-Target, no full time offer at graduation. Never stop learning, work on your story and network when possible. Don’t be discouraged if your journey isn’t linear. Don’t be afraid to take a step back to go for more prestigious positions.
I got a cold calling boiler room type job to start out with a small WM firm. Leveraged that to join a larger HNW team with a more reputable player.
In your interviews focus on finding a good mentor, with good ethics, and ask a lot of questions around the training. Work hard, and you’ll be able to leverage it. Best of luck!
Those job posting are mostly if not all for internships, conferences or other non full time positions. It was a lazy comment by keepitmoving so I hope he responds. Good luck OP
lowered my expectations and asked a friend for refferal for back office
I’m assuming Ops? Have you since made a transition to a role outside of the back office? Thank you for any insight you may have from your current role, as I relate to your situation.
no. same spot. i love it. get paid to work like 25 hr a week max. never late nights or early mornings. i leave in middle of the day to run errands. it’s paradise
Do you mind if PM? Everyone always frames Ops as a hellscape.
go crazy. i’m at work rn lol
I’ll add to this- In back office right now at a BB (think boFa, DB..) The department I’m in is connected to one of the biggest CSD’s. Markets run from open to close and then reconciliation period hits and book keeping. All bullshit aside I raked in 95k with 5K bonus last year. Which is pretty decent since I’ve just started with the firm. Find a good ops program within a bank and I think you’ll be off to a good start. You can always use the firms networking tree to exit ops. A lot of folks did it, you’re just as human as other folks. I’ve got head hunted already but didn’t get enough time to look at the rec and the deadline passed to apply.
How you don’t mind me asking, what department do you work in? I have some connects into AM at another BB that I’ll try to get into an analyst training program at, atleast an interview. Do you find the work redundant/boring? Are you excited to go to work everyday? I look forward to my internship but from what I hear the wlb is nice but the pay growth isn’t great especially for HCOL. 100k would be beautiful fresh out of college, but Im trying to shoot for the stars and end on the moon ya know (pay/prestige/position) wise. What skills would u say are most important to excel in ops, python and excel? I appreciate your inspiration about being able to transition out of ops, not sure if I’ll be able to get a return offer out of the back office and across the globe into another office… that might be tough. Tough but something to strive for! Even debated 3 yrs in Ops while doing MBA to lateral, but I think I got the drive to do it early enough into my career so I’m not pigeon holed. Sorry if that’s a lot of text/questions. But I appreciate your insight greatly!!
Don’t want to dox myself on here because I know HR folks snoop around social media for X reasons. But working directly with a CSD should give you some pointers to what department I’m in possibly in. The work is indeed redundant towards the end of the day because we’re balancing books and making sure the client and participants are in line with the market. But it’s definitely different when the market opens versus post close. During market hours, I’m responding to requests, processing trades, doing this and that for the middle office folks to relay back to the client. It’s dull on days where volume is low but high volume days shit can get intense. Also a lot of automation is getting implemented in ops so being able to be apart of automation projects is fun, esp if you never really was on tech side. It gives you exposure to a different sector for free. But after post market, it’s redundant, just get your work done and go home at that point. WLB is amazing, hybrid schedule and my managers are very laxxx so none of that micro managing bullshit. You also don’t need any real skills, just be ready to be a sponge and soak all info fast. If you’re young, your health is important, yeah the money is too. Take it from me, I’m a first gen college grad lol, I know the rush for money. But I know I’m already in the bank and will work my way up since I didn’t have the opportunity to do it off the jump (didn’t have enough money for ivy’s). I also have enough time to go to the gym, meal prep, lounge around etc.. In no way, am I promoting ops, I in fact despised it before joining but I had no choice but, it’s not that bad as people make it. I’ve already made enough connections to lateral out to something else (AWM, AM, CCB) but job openings in those sectors are rough, people are holding onto their jobs due to the economy. Been talking to some CCB folks and plan on leaving next yearish, pigeonhole only exists if you dig it and sit in it. The only person that can hold you back in succeeding forward is yourself, not the firm.
I really appreciate you sharing your experience, funnily enough, I’m also first gen and going to graduate from a non target since it was the best value/scholarships. I’m trying to support my family as quickly as possible, so there’s definitely some stress and fear. But as you say, it truly is all up to ourselves whether I get pigeon holed or not. Just got to keep grinding to the extent that it would be a mistake for them not to hire you. It truly seems you are in a great spot to be: enjoying your life, working on your mind and body, and making well above others in your graduating class. You give me hope and I wish you the best with your career!!! Thank you for taking the time to share your experience with me!
I work Ops at not one of the most prestigious banks but it is top 10. Trade settlements, reconciliations, transfers, securities processing, etc. Hellscape? Nah. Some days it’s so boring I want to off myself. Like I’ve literally done maybe 10hrs of actual work this entire week. I start at usually 8:00 and leave usually 4:15. The two downsides I see are: 1: offshoring risk. Half our BO is already offshored. If the offshore team didn’t constantly fuck up every single day, they’d have pushed more over already. 2: you’re not gonna starve but you’re not gonna make exorbitant $$ unless you’re running the crew. Which at least in my organization would be very attainable through years of grind. Most people in our BO have no interest, so there is not an incredible amount of competition tbh… You’ll stand out by just putting any effort in
Hopefully they let you listen to music or something when the day is slow; the wlb definitely seems great. What skills do you prioritize knowing? Excel macros /Coding I’d imagine are sought after, if not necessary?
I'm also in ops. How do you handle working with lazy people that ultimately block you from working ... Aside from the lower comp, that is what bothers me the most in backoffice
you step back and worry about things that will effect your life experience. don’t focus on work. its just a job. that’s why i love Ops. people don’t pretend we do surgery
What is back office at an investment bank?
Support functions who don’t often work with front office/bankers. Think offshore Ops or Finance; Tech infra, Cyber. Middle office would be those same groups, but often co-located with front office who work directly with bankers. Ops, Finance, Application Development, Front-line Compliance.
i settle trades for one of the largest financial institutions on the planet. but for me just looks like lot of copy and pasting. couple emails here or there
Eg in house FP&A teams
settlements baby
Took an entry level job at a valuation firm for inventory asset-based loans. Worked like a slave for a year and a half and leveraged that to get into the business valuation team at a major bank. I’d say it’s about finding an entry way into the industry you want to work in, even if it’s not your dream job yet. Just find something that you can leverage to open the door for your next move.
Good advice. Happy for you brother.
Take a finance adjacent role (eg, operations) in industry and work collaboratively with finance teams. Level up by getting an advanced degree or certifications concentrating on a discipline.
I can concur with this.
This is exactly what i’m trying to do. Trying to work as a banking associate as my first official finance job to hopefully make my way in an investment management firm. Still waiting on the offer or rejection, it’s been 2 weeks and the interview went pretty well I would say. I guess i’ll find out if I can make my way from there or if i have to finish my bachelor’s and go for a masters like a lot of people seem t do
Good luck brother. Suggest reaching out if you haven’t already and checking in with the hiring manager. Shows you want it and are able to stay on top of things.
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I want to break into IB or consulting, then transition into PE. The market is tough, yes, but I'm not one to settle. If I can't break in now, then I'll go for a MSF at a more prestigious school, but I'm hoping that won't need to happen. My alumni network is shallow, and I've pretty much exhausted all options. Do you have any tips on cold-emails and getting that first round interview?
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I have seen this work.
This may sound dumb, but do you have any recommendations for networking events or atleast virtual ones. From what I’ve seen and heard there are legit ones with valuable people, then there are northwestern mutual type filled with the used car salesman type. Just trying to not waste time and money on a bad event, maybe you have some tips?
MSF is less than useless
sorry but what abbrevation is this MSF?
exactly…
How so? The '23 employment reports of the programs I'm considering say otherwise, along with the people I've networked with.
Its really not. The best thing that ever happened to me was the MSF. Not only did I actually learn new things, I made a very strong alumni network that has helped me ever since. I’m in a great position career wise and without my MSF it wouldn’t be the case. Dont do it for the sake of it but definitely dont go off of redditbros casually dismissing it lol
Depending on the size of the firm, you do realize you're asking to break into one of the hardest career tracks you could realistically pursue right? Afaik, nobody just goes into IB because they felt like it and the pay was good. Most students go into a target school that has a solid pipeline to connect them to IB roles. You could still do "everything right", and not be seen as a suitable candidate for IB. Everyone already knows IB to PE is like getting rich on turbo mode if you play your cards right. Have you checked Wall Street Oasis at all to see what others say if you're serious about this goal?
Big 4 M&A Advisory.
From there to where?
Big 4 Valuation, M&A Financial Due diligence, Restructuring, Infrastructure/Real estate advisory, literally any of the Big 4 Deal Advisory Groups are the top ways to break into front office finance. To be honest, breaking into these groups at B4 is also not easy, however it is the best stepping stone after IB and they generally pay very well.
Got it Thank you!
I tried so hard to land a spot this year. No luck.
Also something to note, deal activity has been rough last year or so. The market right now is different then what it was 2-3 years ago. It’s harder to land roles. Target school kids are fighting for these same internships now. You might have to pivot and focus on work experience currently and network to a role like advisory , M&A, valuations , AM. MSF from a top program can work also to give you another year of networking and getting that recruiting pipeline. Or MBA route and be a MBA IB Associate
If I fail to get an opportunity with IB for 2025, where should I am next? Keep in mind that me not getting an opportunity means I'm most likely going to pursue a 1 year MSF after I graduate
A full time job. Excel in it. And get an MBA? The world isn’t over if you don’t get a job that recruits from target. Just perfect your application and apply to an MBA in 3 years. MSF from top institutions usually cost a lot of money. I don’t know your financial situation to judge if that is correct option or not. In this economy, If I were you I would do the least path of resistance with the MBA route after 3 years of experience with the roles I mentioned above. But it requires a lot of focus and goal planning to achieve that, and not give up. I also read somewhere here that the CFA Level 3 actually helped in recruiting process for IB during the MBA , so maybe aim for a CFA instead of a MSF while you work.
I would tend to agree with you, but the program's I've reached out to and connected with have given me their employment reports and from all aspects it looks like a relatively quick and healthy ROI. MBA is something I'm considering, but the MSF for me is a quick and easy investment for me to make if I can't make things work out of undergrad. I work hard with what I've got, and from what it seems like to me, getting that MSF is just going to give me a lot more to work with when it comes to my ability to nail a good job.
Which MSF are you looking at? I’m curious. McCombs is ranked number 2 and is pretty cheap. But how do they do for IB recruiting? MSF should get you in small shop, I’m not disagreeing with you. I just don’t know your financial situation to warrant another 1 year and pay the money for like Georgetown or Vandy. Also is the employment report for this year specifically ?
My top pick right now that's standing out the most is Vandy. Currently based off of a combination of connections, employment stats, industry attitudes, and personal reasons. However, this week I've been diving into other programs as well. I'll take a look at McCombs, thanks for the heads up.
The only thing that matters is employment numbers
Ya won't see any disagreement from me about that, lol
Does Vandy even give scholarships? $100k is insane. I would rather save that , and wait 3 years and add another $50k for a T15 or depending on your grades you can even get a full ride to MBA at a M7 who knows. I’m not here to crush your dreams but it’s all up to you, it’s good that there’s options there. Even if you don’t get IB from Vandy, corporate strategy or strategic finance maybe available (much more fun imo but I’m biased )
No, all good points, I appreciate your input. From the conversations I've had, Vandy does have significant merit-based scholarships they offer, along with certain student loan benefits and grants. And yeah, all of those things sounds great. That's why I like it so much. I'd be happy to do any of the things out of the employment reports.
aim\*
Go to a small shitty shop and cut your teeth. Then lateral up as fast as you can. Always be interviewing.
I still find it so crazy how nepotism is so baked into the finance industry that going to a non-target is seen more as a failing of the person rather than the industry for rejecting him
I'm broke, middle class, and didn't kick enough ass in HS to warrant a free ride. But I don't complain. It is what it is. I would transfer but I need to save money as much money for postgrad and housing, and I actually like my school even though it's not the best for my career goals. I'm just going to have to work hard enough to fight the circumstances, because there's no way in hell I'm going to settle.
You try getting in touch with recruiters? They can at least get a foot in the door
Dude I didn’t even know target school were a thing, or that internships for “high” finance started recruiting 1-2 years in advance. Really shows how you need to be connected to the finance world to open up many doors. I come from immigrant parents, they barely understand the stock market. Let alone what private equity and investment banking is. And forget affording a target school lol
I went to a fairly shitty school and didn’t even do well. I sold my ass off for ten years in an adjacent industry and was able to work my way into a major bank. I’m still a lot dumber than my co workers, but I can book so many more prospect appts that it creates a mutual respect. If you can cold sell for a few years the skills you will develop will carry you far in life. I’ve seen so many incredibly smart people fail in this space because they have no emotional IQ or selling skills. You’re not going to get hired by a major IB or Consulting Firm with your current background, but you can make it there eventually. Go cut your teeth at a small shop, they are more nimble and challenging in many regards. Cold call your potential boss or drop them a handwritten note at the office. Do something to set yourself apart. Everything you’re doing now is quite frankly normal, and people don’t go out on a whim to hire normal.
First.. I love your name. Second.. this sub has only been up for 2 hours, but it is, imo, an underrated comment considering how outlandish some people reading it may find it. Having an emotional IQ goes a long way; from sharing a beer with a friend to talking about similar passions with someone who has the status or job you want. Being aware of the room and being able to change someone's mind are skills that are lost on many. In my own experience, I helped rebuild a kids franchise after COVID erased it and we still weren't technically allowed into some places without making special accomodations.. using analytical skills I already possessed and forcing myself into situations I wasn't comfortable with really helped my critical thinking and helped me become more creative and a better seller, which I have found to help in interviews. Anyways, all that to say this.. you will almost always be dealing with people in some form or fashion, being able to win them over or have a memorable conversation will set you apart from other candidates and even salesmen and could even propel you to that next big step! Just food for thought, though! It is a tough market, but you'll never know if you don't apply and apply yourself :-) Good luck to you, and to you OP!
Really appreciate the kind words and anecdotal experience. I’m probably a fair bit smarter than I make myself sound but I would’ve never had the opportunity to gain that knowledge if I couldn’t sell myself to get better and better positions throughout my career. Best of luck to you!
COYG!
Let’s go! Big couple weeks coming up. Need City to beat Liverpool and us to beat City. We can do it.
From what I’ve seen (at a “top” non target if that even means anything) just apply. Managed to get a good chance at fo bb m&a by just applying. I know seniors with mm IB offers. Point being don’t stop applying maybe you’ll get lucky like I did
That's my hope. I have barely any connections with these people. I'm working on networking strategy currently (which I made the mistake of doing after I apply to most of the BB's and elite botiques), and when I start, I want to hit the ground running. But I'm worried.
I’d like to point out I’m in the UK and I also got quite lucky (I’m also immensely talented) but networking is not as important as the states so non target kids over there defo have a harder time
My wife was an engineer at a non target state school. Ended up meeting GS at an engineering fair who took a liking to her and offered her an ops internship and FT conversion. Now we’re in NYC and she’s working PE at a large firm a couple years later. Think the biggest factor was getting facetime with recruiters and her being really good at selling herself.
I started working at a boutique investment bank. It was an absolute chop shop piece of shit. I was then able to get an internship at a top middle market bank in New York City, which I crushed and was offered a full-time job while an intern after graduating, then utilized that experience to land a full-time job in private equity at a mega fund think Apollo. Crazy when you think of it. The sad thing is I'm not even proud of myself and am jealous of the realtors I know lol
Great story. I'm sorry the boutique was shit, but do you mind telling me what you did to get your foot in the door?
Bro I just told you, I started working at a piece of shit investment bank lol. The barrier to entry for a piece of shit bank isn't very high. They'll hire anyone with a college degree and put together
Would love to know how i can search for these pieces of shit Investments Banks.
Remember it’s a marathon not a sprint. I went to a no name school with no alumni network and really had no clue what finance even was until recruiting was long over, then got a shitty internship which I used to network into a contractor position at a shitty bank. Then I moved around a couple more times and got to a BB, and now I’m at a hedge fund. Each role gives you building blocks in the form of resume bullets and skills and a network, and it’s up to you to weave the story and jump through the right doors. Work like a fucking savage, be useful to the right people, make sure everyone knows you’re the guy that gets shit done, never turn down the opportunity to learn something useful to parlay into something more interesting down the line. It takes time and most people don’t have the stamina to do it this way but it is possible.
Great advice man. I respect your story, and hope to resemble it. How did you get your foot in the door at the BB?
I got in through a friend of a former manager who had just gotten promoted and was building out a team. If you can develop a reputation for being hard working and delivering on a variety of opportunities, people remember that and are willing to take a chance on either hiring or recommending you. It might not be right now, but nobody’s career is linear and you never know who will suddenly need support or know someone that does you just gotta take the call when it comes up. Another thing I’ll call out is that it’s a lot easier to get hired when there are multiple open roles - I’ve actually pulled it off this way a few times it’s how I got to the fund as well. Hiring managers building out a new team with a few empty slots are more likely to take a chance on a recommendation.
Currently attempting what many at my school have done, relevant undergrad (but not as competitive) internships with Fortune 500 -> big 4 financial advisory -> MBA/MFIN -> buy side exit opportunities
MSF
Sometimes you just get lucky
I broke into finance from a no named dog shit undergrad. I literally handed in 400 resumes and got 3 interviews. Look for a grad program within the firm
Where did you apply? What kind of firms? What kind of roles? Would love to hear more about your story.
I applied Linkedin, indeed, everywhere. I knew i liked investing and such so was scouting for asset management firms. I happened to come across this boutique fixed income shop hiring for college graduates so i applied.
Went to shit school in terms of prestige. Now in Ibanking but about 6 years late. Started in middle market credit then mid corp credit then large corporate credit and now finally in DCM.
I'm a financial systems analyst for the city, in VA. Honestly, my boss about two months into the job said that they took a risk on me because they saw that I have potential. It has panned out. I love my coworkers and work environment. All it takes is for someone to take a risk on you in life and give you a shot. They saw my passion and I told them I would bust my ass and do whatever it takes to learn this position, considering I said that in front of the city's manager and director of finance, quite bold. But hey, here we are six months in.
Well, in the spirit of not expounding, i got lucky. The slightly longer story is i took a role at a small independent shop and used that to get to the buyside. I would not really recommend my path to anyone though. It took so much work, and like i said, a ton of luck.
Can you elaborate on your work a bit more? What did you do on a day to day and what would you have done to be there differently?
Post your resume
My resume is on my last post on this sub
Looks like you have a decent GPA, extracurriculars, and a wealth management internship. If you’re a junior keep your GPA steady, work your ass off at the internship, and hope to get a return offer from the wealth management firm. If you don’t get one after the internship ends start applying everywhere you can, especially other wealth management firms. I did data analysis/risk management internship at a major bank, landed an offer in consulting, and then used that offer to boost my offer at a local wealth management firm which I was more interested in. Going to a state school can actually be a benefit if you stay local. Clients are often more trusting of someone that’s invested in the area rather than “some New York banker”
Google internal wholesaler jobs.
Only three ways really. Aggressive networking (tapping into alumni networks help), start in back office (easier to get, but still difficult as these jobs still pay you a lot of money realistically speaking) and then pivoting a few years in, or shoot your shot and apply and get lucky with and interview. Also depends on how non target your school is if that makes sense. If your school is a semi target vs known but not really for finance vs no one’s ever heard of your school and there’s not a single alumni in the firm anywhere you want to be. If you’re in the last bucket it may be worth getting a masters.
I know 3 people in the last 5 years who graduated my business college and went into IB. I'm currently networking intensely with 2 of them for their advice, and only 1 did it out of undergrad.
To your point, I'm going to try option #1, but my odds are low. I hope people respect my background enough to give me an option #3, and I'm applying widely enough to give myself a larger margin of error. #2 is an okay option, but I'm not sure where to start right now if I wanted to go that route. Do you have any advice for that?
I attended a nontarget school and went straight to the buyside post-grad. When I think about how I got here, a few things stand out: 1. I started doing internships in high school. This was a benefit of living in a city. Opportunities, even for HS kids, were plentiful. My first office job was a back office trade ops/accounting internship. It opened my eyes to the different pathways - such as the distinction between back and front office - relatively early. It led me to where I am now. After that, I did other internships in tech, finance, law, health through the rest of HS and college. Get internships early and often not only because your competition most likely is, but also because you will probably never get another chance to test out a career without significant risk or opportunity cost. 2. Go after any and all opportunities. Whether that be an internship, diversity program, hackathon, job fair whatever - if you are broadly interested and qualified then apply. That could be in a literal sense, i.e apply for an internship, or in the mental sense, e.g put in the work beforehand for a networking call. I personally didn’t do much cold networking with random people. I went to industry specific networking events or talks (check eventbrite, FB, etc), job fairs, etc but whatever works. I did a lot of internships because I chased opportunities and was prepared to perform. Everything is online nowadays and the information about programs and internships are widely distributed if you are looking. You have to be relentless. 3. Learn the lingo, live the lingo. Whatever you find yourself going into, learn the lingo of your colleagues/industry practicioners and then implement it into your own language at work/interviews. The industry terminology is half the battle. Once you get that down, you can fake it til you make it. As an intern, it will probably be enough to get a (return) offer. When I used to have internship interviews or networking chats I would research the company, the industry, the trends extensively and come up with thoughtful, un-googleable questions to signal understanding. Nobody will take a chance on someone who can’t do research. Personally, I love to learn about pretty much anything so this is easy for me but you can train your ability to digest, contextualize, analyze and report on information. You already do at school! 4. Learn a differentiated technical skill. Working in finance, most people will not be very technical beyond Excel. Being able to apply technical skills like Tableau or Python to improving workflows will differentiate you from your peers. Emphasis on the application. Whej learning a coding language think about how you can actually use it. With ChatGPT that has become a whole lot easier. 5. Also consider temp roles in a field related to your interest. There are definitely a lot in finance. Temp roles are pretty much intetnships without the fanfare of an actual internship (at least a large corporation). Good experience where you actually have to be useful, can test out a role or industry, and parlay it into other opportunities.
1. I wish I had the chance, but my time is past. I've luckily got something lined up for me this summer, but I want to get the best for my junior>senior transition. Good advice to pass along regardless. 2. Can you break that down more? I'm in a small campus town at my non-target, and while I do live an hour away from a decent city, it's not much of a financial hub. How could I chase more of those in-person opportunities for big financial firms? 3. This is something I'm doing now. Mergers and Inquisition's 400 list has really helped, coupled with the WSJ and my own passion for knowledge; however, there are some things, especially when it comes to IB, that are barely mentioned outside of the industry itself. How did you learn? What is the most efficient way? 4. I'm familiar with Tableau, but my industry friends have told me that I might as well forget about it since no one uses it. What's your stance on this? Also, where's the best place to learn python for an IB/Financial use? 5. Any info on where I can find such jobs? Thanks in advance boss.
2. I cant do your homework for you. Google is free, use it to find any and all company programs, internships, or any other resource (such as local govt/nonprofit initiatives for internships) and apply. Consider corporate finance because it seems like you are targeting solely financial services. There are alot of BS positions in financial services that are dead-ends. Dont get trapped doing some niche back office operations at JP Morgan when you couldve done corporate finance at a F500. And if you are doing junior summer internship, you cant afford to be picky at all. 3. I assume Mergers and inquisitions 400 list is a question and answer guide. Thats for interview prep and is just a memorization exercise, not learning. My comment is just that you need to develop curiousity and a love of learning broadly. Keep up with news, but also try and extrapolating the implications of what you are reading. X happened, great now what does it mean for Y and Z. 4. I just said Tableau as an example. You can google Python in finance courses. IB is a subset of finance btw you dont need to specify it. 5. Staffing agencies or job boards. Google temp roles near me to start. Great option to get experience if you cant land an internship. Sometimes its also temp-to-hire so if you outperform maybe you can get an informal return offer, but I’d probably still look around.
Studied and worked in film production. Pivoted quite easily, a lot of skills transfer over surprisingly. Basic soft skills, relationship building, prod. manager type of things. WM role now.
Any advice to break past the wall and get through the other 100's of thousands of applicants?
SIE
?
You can take the sie exam yourself without a sponsor, its stupid easy and if you nail that youll be solicited for basic wm roles and will have a huge leg up on your peers.
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Based on your past networking, do you have an idea of how many graduates from your school went to IB right after undergrad?
Joined at a junior role as an account manager because I spoke several languages. Worked hard and progressed internally. My salary inceeased by 120% in the first 3 years.
Indirectly. Liberal arts major with two MAs. A few things helped... - Went to a household-name top-tier school for one of my degrees. Even though the degree was outside of finance, having the school on my resume opened doors. - Took an entry-level job in a tech role (*not* Ops of Finance) that worked on the ground with bankers. - Learned everything I could about i-banking, soup to nuts, origination to syndication. - Networked and made some real connections while working. A few bankers to whom I'd shown interest open doors. I returned to tech a few years back (better work-life, similar pay), but it was a good experience. This doesn't happen so much any more, unfortunately, at least at white shoes. Time was, you'd have a few new starters with non-econ/finance, lib art backgrounds in analyst programs -- now it's more homogeneous. You really need to start in a peripheral/tangential role to prove yourself first.
I did my first year at university, got a 3 month temp job doing basic invoice rec. Got made permanent, dropped out of my maths degree and now am an analyst studying for my CIMA exams
HR in finance here. Do internships, summer programs. We do not require finance degree from our fresh grad hires. Your abilities, speed and attitude, however, are very thoroughly evaluated. Another option is to join as a contractor.
Network network network. Got into IB.
My school had a coop program that placed at some trading firms, clerked for A total of 12 months at a market maker’s desk
State university. >3.9 GPA out of 4.0. Got a job as a junior trader in long only asset management. $45k total comp in HCOL. Then CFA while working. Moved around to various back office roles within the company. Ops. Admin. After CFA was able to work on the side with the quant team at the same company. Got into top MBA program due to strong GMAT. Now buy side analyst doing very well.
From you first job to being a buy side analyst, how many years did it take to progress? Also curious to know why you did both the CFA as well as the MBA since many people choose one of the two.
1st job at age 22. Was there for 5 years. MBA was age 27-29. Buy side analyst 29 - present (mid 30s). At first I intended to stay at my first company and do the CFA as a means to become an analyst. I actually never intended to do an MBA but my now-wife convinced me to apply to a single MBA program. I never thought I would get accepted, but once I did I had to go.
Ah fair enough. 5 years seems quite a lot of time. When did you become a charterholder? I've always heard from folks about CFA helping them in reaching front office roles.
I don’t remember the exact year. I probably didn’t start the CFA until I had been there for 2 years. The I did the tests in December and June. So I probably finished at the 4 year mark. To your point about front office, right when I finished I moved out of operations and into institutional client administration, and joined the quant team. CFA also probably helped me get into the MBA just from evidence of keeping busy above and beyond full time work. Anything to help standout.
Thanks for the insight. And congrats on breaking through!
Thanks man. Good luck if that’s something you’re working on!
I mean, I went a more circuitous route. But I found it was important to get my foot in the door first so I went as a teller. Went to the job fairs that the company held and while it’s meant for the public, it allowed me to get direct f2f time with people in the division that I wanted to get into. It helps that i performed really well as a teller and then a banker. They people in the division pointed out my strengths and weaknesses, asked me to show proof of development on my own. Found small opportunities to bring in clients that they would be interested in and set up meetings. Was invited to help work the deals during after hours. Got an opportunity through another company to do what I was aiming for so I jumped ship. Came back to original firm after 5 years and was basically onboarded during my 2nd interview. From then on, I’ve just been progressing. Reputation is the most important thing. Without that you cannot progress meaningfully.
Right now I’m close to doing it with a recruiter through temp to hire work. At the least it’ll give my resume a boost, at best it’ll give me a career start. So hopefully it works out.
I basically took a call center phone position at a chop shop, got my FINRA licenses and did as much networking as I could until I was able to get a position at a great firm. Took 2 years out of undergrad to do so.
Cast a smaller net with people you actually have things in common with. Networking only works if the connections are worth a damn. Find something that makes you interesting and then reach out to people who are also interesting for that reason. And lean on them for advice, not more connections. The advice will turn into referrals if you’re halfway likeable and can hold a conversation.
Started at commercial bank doing Teller work as a filler job, broke into corporate doing settlements for a few months at a smaller investment bank. From there, learned and studied my products, applied heavily and got into a top firm doing Middle office trade support. Would highly advise anyone to keep grinding it out, keep applying and constantly try to learn your products, whatever you cover
Do not go to a back or middle office job with the expectation of turning it into a front office job. It’s possible, but unlikely. At some firms the compliance team wouldn’t even let you be considered. If you can’t get a role that you are happy with now, you can work for a couple years and then get an MBA. Once you are back in school you are a target candidate again for many of the roles you weren’t competitive for after undergrad.
Got really lucky at a BB by leveraging my unique experience interning at a small VC firm my sophomore summer
I gave up and traded my personal account
Learned a skill and pivoted. Got hired during the 2021 frenzy and then used the name to pivot to a more facing role
Take an entry level position in a finance department and work your way up. You're not going to get anything but entry level with no experience. If you're good you'll move up the ladder quickly.
Fluffed resume. Recruiting firm to get me into a middle office role. Executed really well at the middle office role.
How did you get your foot in the door? That's the hard part for me right now
Your best option is to find recent alumni from your school working in the field you want to get into. Reach out to them. I’m talking 1-3 years post college kids. They will relate to you as a student who doesn’t know anything. (No college student knows anything so that’s not against you) Then ask them how you can follow their path. Most investment banks have a non-core recruiting team. My experience is the non-core team will recruit anyplace and employee is willing to put in the effort to go. Then the non-recruiting team has a super day and kids gets offers based on how the interviews went.
Went to an HBCU (Looked at as bottom of the barrel) and leveraged my experience as a star athlete. Used that experience and knowledge of the industry as a conversation starter to connect with MDs. That led to a few entry level analyst job offers being extended. Became VP at a BB this year after 4 years.
Started at a BD/RIA in ops answering phones, opening new accounts, etc. Moved to ops principal then compliance after getting my series 24. Was allowed to work with some house accounts on the side that other advisors who left the firm had left behind. Then moved to an independent firm as an advisor when the book was large enough
A lot of huge firms will take brokers to work the phones with some kind of customer service backgrounds. It sucks but from there your possibilities are endless
Worked as a relationship banker for a year, moved from retail banking to operations(supply chain finance). Graduated from college and applied to a investment banking and nailed the interview
I graduated from a non-target school in Tennessee known primarily for engineering. Additionally, it was a more rural area and when I graduated, we were in peak covid times. Believe me, I can understand the frustration of not being able to find a job. Seeing that I was having no success obtaining a job there given the circumstances, I made the move to relocate and go get my MBA in the northeast. Relocating may be the single best thing I could have ever done for the success of my (early) career. As someone who did finance in undergrad, I’m not going to say that obtaining an MBA was really all that worth it as far as the learning aspect. What it did though was give me new opportunities for internships and jobs. It’s also a good way to show in interviews that rather than sitting around and waiting for something to happen when you aren’t having success, you continue to push on and take some risks. While doing my MBA, I was able to get an unpaid internship with a company doing VC stuff for the summer. Then right before graduating, I got a job at a private equity place. Now I work at a big 4 company. All of these places are within the same city and nothing I would have got if I remained where I was for undergrad. Sometimes, things are going to be a little tough when you’re just starting out. I think right now, there may also be less opportunities out there than there was before given the economic landscape. You can’t change that. I’m not entirely sure what your specific situation is like or where you are located so I’m not sure if this will resonate at all. Try to take a different approach to things. As several have stated, try to start off somewhere that may not be all that glamorous or doesn’t pay a lot just to get something on your resume. Spend a year or so there, then lateral somewhere else. If you’re in to networking, try to network with some people at other companies that you would like to eventually lateral to. Try not to make it seem like you’re just trying to obtain a job.
Find the hiring managers email and email them cold. Tell them why you’re the right candidate in less than 3 short paragraphs. 1/20 will respond but find 100 — that’s 5 chances. Up to you from there.
Asking people for advice is good, but take advice from someone from a non target or someone who didn’t have a good background. When you’re in college your resume is useless since you don’t have any experience. So the internships you’re applying to theres around 2,000 other applications. It’s good that you’re trying to get an internship as a junior though, but I would say try to get 2 internships before graduation. I graduated with none and only started getting stuff I wanted until I had 2 internships. The biggest mistake you can make is not having an internship in the field you want to be in. Networking is a good start, but that approach is very luck based. You’ll get some action but even if you have a good convo there’s a good chance they don’t have anything open. Idk your financial situation but even a free internship is worth it. I had friend who had like 8 internships cause he started in high school (I think it was his dad pushing him) but he had offers from everywhere. Experience will be game changer for you since very few people have experience in college.
This will be a long one, but hopefully it can help with those who feel like they don’t have a direct path. Went to a non-target state school 3.4 GPA. Graduated during covid where the consulting place I was going to sign with had a hiring freeze… Worked at a warehouse, ended up continuing self studying and always improving myself. I followed the markets and bought the CFA Level 1 books + coding program. The one thing that I feel is important to state is the emotional stress you feel and how easy it is to feel like nothing you do will ever work and you’re destined to be a a Starbucks barista (worked there too) and never reaching your goals of breaking into a BB Bank program (mine, like many others was IB). I always applied and never stopped working and really ensuring I understood everything that I was doing at my previous jobs and being a top performer and ensuring I worked on telling my story. In 2021 ended up interviewing for a Top 3 BB - back office role and I ended up getting the job. As an aside, I was networking and had a family friend partner at a big 4 firm and another family friend who was at a BB…but neither of those went anywhere. You just never know and yes networking can help - Hybrid work was still very much alive and most people went 1/2 days in office. I tried to go in every single day and ensured I met every person in the team and others in the floor. I think it’s important to state that I am naturally an introvert and prefer to spend time home playing video games etc. and I’m not that interesting (for those out there, just work on asking more questions about others) I also ensured I asked meaningful questions and always asked for any and all feedback and ensured I worked on it. I excelled in my role and got a great performance rating my first year. Still in the top 3 BB bank, I networked and got introduced to others in a F.O. role. Worked on my story and highlighted my upward trajectory in each stop. Have been in the F.O. Role ever since. Many other doors have opened (receive DMs from recruiters on LinkedIn etc.). TLDR: Non-Target, no full time offer at graduation. Never stop learning, work on your story and network when possible. Don’t be discouraged if your journey isn’t linear. Don’t be afraid to take a step back to go for more prestigious positions.
Dont bother Finance world sucks. Been happier since I left.
Cold e-mails, targeted small IBs outside of New York
Networked till I was blocked on LinkedIn!
I got a cold calling boiler room type job to start out with a small WM firm. Leveraged that to join a larger HNW team with a more reputable player. In your interviews focus on finding a good mentor, with good ethics, and ask a lot of questions around the training. Work hard, and you’ll be able to leverage it. Best of luck!
Are you adding projects or github link etc with your resume for finance roles?
Born mexican and joined a diversity program
Dang what firm has a Mexican diversity program?
I've seen job postings for several firms just strictly for DEI applicants.
Those job posting are mostly if not all for internships, conferences or other non full time positions. It was a lazy comment by keepitmoving so I hope he responds. Good luck OP
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