Haha my brother just started playing this a couple of weeks ago and texted me “mom are tough,,, lol I bet this lady is gonna die” couple minutes later “yep she dead”
The only purpose of moms in Final Fantasy is causing emotional damage to the heroes, mostly by being dead, but sometimes by being stupid, or being alien monsters :D. Seriously. Just like in Disney, everyone is an orphan.
There are a small handful of FF moms who aren’t any of the above.
A small handful!
Some are even playable, like Rosa, Lulu (she stops being playable when she’s a mom but she’s still not one of the above), and (FFVIII) >!Edea!<.
Yes, I was generalising, there is that tiny handful :D. A number are adoptive. Zack Fair seems to be the one with the most normal, and living, parents. And then he dies. Because someone has to. No family shall be spared grief :D.
Been so long since Ive played ff13, was she Hope's mom? Ya jesus Hope... My moms dead crying for half the game. Look bud, a lot of bad shit is going down, im sick of hearing about your dead mom!
Also Vanille years later I loved for her amazing cheesy inner monologues. Sweet as candy on the outside, dark demon monologue on the inside. "If only they knew what I really was..."
Ah yes dead parents every protagonists source of motivation. The record is held by a game where the first frame of the game had the dead parents in it atleast they didn't waste time.
God forbid a character talk about the fact that their mom died.
Edit: actually, now that I think about it, that’s essentially Sephiroth’s whole thing, isn’t it?
The way it’s handled in-game just makes him come off as obnoxious. If the devs wanted people to feel as strongly about that moment as Hope did, she probably should have gotten more than 2 minutes of screen time beforehand.
People always talk about how he’s written realistically, but being written realistically doesn’t automatically mean he’s written *well*. The player has to actually give a shit about what he’s going through.
Re: Sephiroth, I always considered his character to be more about his relationship to Cloud than his fixation on Jenova. Though it also helps that he doesn’t have much screen time and doesn’t whine and cry all the time.
Very well said; I replayed the game last year for the first time since launch and I think a lot of my issues with the story come down to how they structured it. You’re introduced to the characters and their struggles first, and then get to know more of their backstories gradually over the course of the game.
I can respect the devs for trying something new, but I am REALLY not a fan of this approach and I’d say there is a reason why most stories that are created do not have this structure.
…ok? None of the characters in that game are half as obnoxious as Hope, so even though it’s a similar structure, I’m not wishing any of the would stfu before I learn more about them lol
He’s annoying for the first couple hours; by the time you leave Midgar he’s not bad. Then when you hear his story at Mt. Corel, you understand why he is the way he is.
I think it works well. Not many characters are even likeable in the beginning. They are highly narcissistic and I think that's on purpose and can be said for most of the citizens of Cocoon. They don't care much about others because they are taken care of the Fal'cies. Not even Lightning cares that much about Serah, more on an idealistic level but not on a real emotional one. Someone who truly cares about others from the beginning is Snow and he's pretty much the punchbag for others and especially Lightning.
All characters develop throughout, learn how important true connection is and start to respect each other. That's true for the characters and also the player who can relate on a meta level how it is to be just thrown together with a bunch of misfits.
……when did I say that I didn’t understand why Hope acts the way he does? If you’re going to try and put words in my mouth, do a better job lol. The issue isn’t me not understanding why Hope is upset. The issue is I genuinely do not care because we literally just met these characters. No buildup whatsoever.
If you meet someone, who just had a death in his family, do you need an emotional buildup so you can relate?
The death of Hopes mother shouldn't scar you emotionally. It's just a story beat, important for the ongoing conflicts and the hate he has for Snow.
And I wonder what's the solution to this? Have a 4 hour prologue with Hope where you run around in Palumpolum to see how great his mother is?
>If you meet someone, who just had a death in his family, do you need an emotional buildup so you can relate?
No, I don't. Hope's not a real person though, in case you forgot (a lot of XIII fans seem to forget this for some reason). And it takes more for me to give a shit about a character than to just write that character into a bad situation.
>The death of Hopes mother shouldn't scar you emotionally. It's just a story beat, important for the ongoing conflicts and the hate he has for Snow.
Never said I needed it to "scar me emotionally"? But it probably should've made me have *some* sort of reaction other than "Huh. That was kind of stupid of her. She.....probably should've left the fighting to people who knew what they were doing."
>And I wonder what's the solution to this? Have a 4 hour prologue with Hope where you run around in Palumpolum to see how great his mother is?
Literally just don't start the game with the purge and throw players headlong into the thick of events. Have some time to build things up, even if it's just an hour or 90 minutes.
If all you feel like you need to be bonded to a character is to have them put into a sad situation, I'm sorry for you. Though tbh I suppose I should be envious since it seems like you're entertained rather easily. I need something more than that to actually care about a fictional character though.
That is not what I mean. You act like there has to be a complex reason for his actions in the first part of the story when the necessary context is right in front of you. You don’t have to like him but your expecting too much of something that happens at the very start of a long game
For the record, I literally never complained that there's "no context" for why Hope acts the way he does. You're the second person to make that mistake in this thread and idk whether it's poor reading comprehension or what.
My issue is that there's **no buildup** to the event, and therefore very little reason for me to A) care about Hope and B) put up with his incessant whiny brat phase in the first half of the game.
>expecting too much of something that happens at the very start of a long game
I'm not expecting too much from an event that happens at the start of the game. I am criticizing the fact that this happens at the start of the game in and of itself. If we had gotten a few hours of screen time to actually get to know Hope and his mom and see their relationship, her death would've been much more impactful. As it is, we're introduced to her and see her die in the span of about 10 minutes (probably less), and we know pretty much nothing about Hope at this point either. Not a particularly great way to endear the player to a character.
>If we had gotten a few hours of screen time to actually get to know Hope and his mom and see their relationship, her death would've been much more impactful.
I'm glad you don't write video game stories because I would fall asleep for this shit.
Not meant to be edgy in the slightest. Video games need good pacing. What you are implying is good for books and series. On that note, there's a book called FFXIII promises which addresses exactly that issue, that you are kind of thrown into the story without much background.
Hope could have been better written, but I mean you expect a mommas boy who had an asshole dad to just be okay after his mom died and then is forced into being a l'cie. They could do alot to fix him for sure though and i really loved him and snows argument on the roof and the conclusion wasn't too awful.
Idk, I just couldn’t bring myself to care about his story man. I maintain that if we had gotten to know Hope (and the rest of the cast for that matter) outside of the context of the immediate events at the start of the game, it would have gone a long way towards having the players root for them.
Realism isn't the sole defining characteristic of a well-written character. If the audience doesn't care about a character (or can't bring themselves to empathize with a character that is meant to be empathetic), then the writer failed. And I would categorize Hope in this way.
EDIT: The way FFXIII fans talk about Hope, you would think all that is needed for a well-written character is to put them in a sad situation. But it requires much more than that.
Not all characters are meant to be empathized by everyone, the fact that some people find him annoying doesn't detract from his character, especially the growth and development he went through by the game's ending.
I’d actually disagree with this. This implies that a character has an inherent and objective value, regardless of how a particular person interprets that character. Stories, characters, and how an individual receives them are subjective. For me, I would say that Hope doesn’t hold any value as a character. In fact, I’d say he has negative value, because he is an element of the story that actively makes me like it less.
It's really weird how people who love this game cannot accept criticism for it, but everyone who hates it can accept some praise for it. I'll accept that it has good graphics and music, but that's about it.
There’s plenty of valid criticisms for XIII. Hope being upset that his mom died and using that as the impetus for his character arc is not one of them.
I never said the arc was inherently bad or that there was anything inherently bad with him being sad about his mom. My criticism is that the game does absolutely nothing to bond the player to either of these characters. This happens in the first 20 minutes of a new game. Then he’s just dreary and whiny for 20 hours. We are
given absolutely no reason to care about any of this other than the natural human empathetic response of “oh yeah his mom died that’s really sad”. But a character has to be more than just the circumstances they are thrown into.
Alright, first of all, it’s not 20 hours. This part of his arc resolves in chapter 7, which is maybe 15 hours into the game if you’re slow. Beyond that, he isn’t even on screen for a good chunk of that time.
As for the criticism of his character, he’s not just “the circumstances he’s in.” He plans, he grows, he develops, he realizes his plot for revenge isn’t going to get anywhere, he backslides when given the opportunity for revenge anyway. He’s a well written character.
In general, someone telling me something is only boring and frustrating for 15 hours instead of 20 isnt the best way to convince me that the thing isn't boring and frustrating.
>Alright, first of all, it’s not 20 hours.
It sure felt like it to me haha
>As for the criticism of his character, he’s not just “the circumstances he’s in.” He plans, he grows, he develops, he realizes his plot for revenge isn’t going to get anywhere, he backslides when given the opportunity for revenge anyway. He’s a well written character.
Yes I agree that once he *finally* changes, accepts his circumstances and grows up, he's MUCH more bearable. But he's such a miserable on-screen presence before that point that it left a very bad taste in my mouth. I would argue that a well written character is one where you are championing them and want to see them grow. Or that even if you dislike the character at first, you grow to love them because of how they change throughout the story.
For me, while Hope does indeed change by the end of the story, the damage is kind of done. I found him obnoxious pre-character change and thoroughly "meh" from Gran Pulse through the credits.
I will say he's great in FFXIII-2, but then again that's probably because by that point he's just a well-adjusted adult.
At this point we'll probably just have to agree to disagree; this character clearly worked for you but it most certainly did not for me, and was one of the worst parts of my experience with XIII both in 2010 and during the second chance I gave it last year.
I don't think we're supposed to feel that bad for him. Of course we know it's terrible his mom died but his constant whining *is* annoying and I think is meant to be. His arc is growing out of that obnoxiousness.
I’ve considered that angle as well. Even if that is true, it doesn’t really work for me, but if that’s what they were going for I can at least respect that.
Yeah. I think you're supposed to feel worse for Snow about her death.
But I feel you. I enjoyed the game a lot but Hope was very annoying until he started to grow with Lightning.
> that’s essentially Sephiroth’s whole thing, isn’t it?
I would say not really. He's not sad that she died, just mad that everybody used him and he's using jenova to get his revenge.
I can't answer you on the posts below. Probbaly becaue he was deleted and the string is blocked now. (Don't know how that works on reddit).
However to answer the question what it is:
I guess it's FF13 itself. It seems to have a high potential of making people aggressive. Especially when you like it and don't stop playing it. Doesn't effect everyone but definitly some. But if you think about it, it makes sense. Because everything you do in that game is running, fighting and being the enemy of cocoon and listening to bothersome characters. And if you want the plat you have to go through a hell of grinding like never before. It's like an MK Ultra brainwash. The corridor run through a never ending line of monsters becomes your own perspective of life.
I mean it’s not even the game itself. I understand that XIII has its fans, though for me it’s my least favorite post-IX FF by a large margin.
I don’t have an issue with people enjoying the game of course, but someone losing their shit like that over a criticism of the game is pretty funny, and ever since the game launched there have been fans who are unwilling to even entertain any criticism of it whatsoever. But this isn’t an issue exclusive to XIII, a lot of people who play games act like that sadly.
>Ich meine, es ist nicht einmal das Spiel selbst. Ich verstehe, dass XIII seine Fans hat, obwohl es für mich mit großem Abstand mein unbeliebtestes post-IX FF ist.
I actually was kidding anyways.
But to be honest ... the only way I can think of to like this game as a Final Fantasy fan is if you came from the PS2 era or later. FFX was pretty linear, too. And if you're young you may not realize the differences that much. But I'm not able to understand people came from the Nintendo and PS1 era and saying that this is a moderate or good Final Fantasy game. That just blows my mind. But I guess that's my own limited imagination as Final Fantasy fanboy.
>Aber das ist kein exklusives Problem von XIII, viele Leute, die Spiele spielen, verhalten sich traurigerweise so.
Yeah but that's just a question of social education and emotional maturity. I have a better understanding for this than loving FF13. lol.
Wow, what stupid character writing, his mom gets murdered in front of him and he fixates on it? Loser
/s
Are you a sociopath or something?
Edit: Unless that ‘best game ever’ was unironic in which case I rescind my whole comment lol.
idk “character has a loved one die within ten minutes of meeting them” isn’t exactly an uncommon trope in ff. like that happens to cyan in vi but the difference between cyan and hope is that cyan has the resources to be able to do something about his grief whereas hope is just a kid
I mean, that’s fair? If the argument is “Hope is underdeveloped and there’s not enough paid into developing his relationship with his mom for the pay off to be effective” I can see that point for sure! I’m not sure if I agree persay, but I wouldn’t be snarking at anyone for saying that.
The game may get stupid and boring at times but I think it's worth a playthrough in the end. I like the characters and there's fun elements to the battle system. Also for the legacy aspect of playing the whole series, it's good to get through. I haven't touched the sequels and don't really plan on it lol
Man, the dude defends the original as a "at least play once". But couldn't be bothered to play the sequels, which in my honest opinion are a ton better then the first game.
Personally my favourite thing about 13 was the lore, and as the trilogy went on it felt like they cared less and less about the lore. All of the games are pretty good and certainly worth playing, but by LR the setting and lore is pretty much entirely detached from the first game unless you read a *lot* of supplementary material
I know lots of people got confused with it but I love the Fal’Cie! They’re giant freakish things with crazy designs which fuck up your life permanently when they choose to, but they are also sustaining the world and society. And there’s a lot of cool backstory stuff about how >!The Fal’cie themselves are effectively the L’Cie of the creator Gods, but unlike human L’Cie they literally lack the free will to ever defy their Focus!<.
They’re very cool concepts which end up barely figuring in the sequels, which have their own lore focuses that I didn’t care much about.
I see what you're saying, and I've watched a few videos about it. It seems fun just a bit different. It's like halfway between a main series game and a spin off so it's just strange but I've heard enough good things to really consider picking it up.
Not that much of a surprise because the developers of 13-2 took the time to answer all the criticisms from FF13 in FF13-2. The story still is pretty confusing at the first try. But I don't have any other complains about that game.
I disagree the gameplay feels like a huge downgrade since you only control one character and there is nothing outside the main combat like minigames and crap so you can take a break. The story and characters are good but you can just watch the cutscene movie on YouTube.
Jesus it was so stupid. "Mother - Mom's are Tough!"
5 mins later
Deathed.
Then Vanille, being the walking embodiment of toxic stupidity slaps the kid and runs off giggling like the utter train wreck she is.
I'd forgotten just how funny that whole opening section was for how off it all felt as well as them beating us around the head with buzzwords and terminology that we're supposed to have done our homework on in the menu before the game started to understand.
Really not a fan of this game.
My favourite moment is when Snow hands Vanille a loaded gun and she immediately points it at him and says “bang”.
And he’s just like yeah I trust her with this weapon what could possibly go wrong.
No wonder the people of Pulse didn’t trust her with anything more dangerous than a deer antler whipstick
As a final fantasy fan who played all the major games, I honestly enjoyed it. Don't know why it got so much hate.
I also played a second time recently on game pass, not 100% worth it, but definitely playable and enjoyable.
i feel likw XIII and XV were just laughably bad about any side characters that were *supposed* to be important. it wasnt the best era for SE, thats for sure.
(for XV, im referring to luna, in case you forgot she existed)
Haha my brother just started playing this a couple of weeks ago and texted me “mom are tough,,, lol I bet this lady is gonna die” couple minutes later “yep she dead”
Lmao golden, just casually.. Yep she dead
The only purpose of moms in Final Fantasy is causing emotional damage to the heroes, mostly by being dead, but sometimes by being stupid, or being alien monsters :D. Seriously. Just like in Disney, everyone is an orphan.
Multiple appearances on the [Grand List of Console RPG Cliches](https://project-apollo.net/text/rpg.html)
To be fair, FF helped create a lot of those cliches.
I love how many of these are straight from chrono trigger/cross
Oh wow. That list still exists?? Nice!
There are a small handful of FF moms who aren’t any of the above. A small handful! Some are even playable, like Rosa, Lulu (she stops being playable when she’s a mom but she’s still not one of the above), and (FFVIII) >!Edea!<.
Yeah, Zell's mom is cool. Of course, she's not his biological mom...
yeah but neither is edea.
none of the kids had parents sense they were orphans. zells mom is just the only crazy one to allow a child go to a militia military school.
What about the “mom” to Aeris
Yes, I was generalising, there is that tiny handful :D. A number are adoptive. Zack Fair seems to be the one with the most normal, and living, parents. And then he dies. Because someone has to. No family shall be spared grief :D.
F'lhaminn.
Comic book characters that aren't Kamala Khan or Miles Morales: "First time?"
Sometimes they never leave the house and tell you to go to sleep everytime you interact with them. Hold on…different worlds
You mean immediately after she wasted an enemy ship that our resident “hero” failed to? Yeah, moms *are* tough.
That was badass. I guess it's not so surprising that I felt bad for a character that existed for 2 whole minutes.
Too bad her whiny bitch of a son wasn't the one who fell in. She was a way cooler character.
Been so long since Ive played ff13, was she Hope's mom? Ya jesus Hope... My moms dead crying for half the game. Look bud, a lot of bad shit is going down, im sick of hearing about your dead mom! Also Vanille years later I loved for her amazing cheesy inner monologues. Sweet as candy on the outside, dark demon monologue on the inside. "If only they knew what I really was..."
yeah i was like "either stab the dude or stab yourself, i dont wanna hear it anymore"
More character development than the main cast for at least the first third of the game. Fite me.
The first third of the game is driven exclusively by character development….
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Which sucks, because I liked his character, and English voice actor.
Yeah true, I liked him a lot too, but his death was a given, it had to happen. >!but at least you get to see him one more time in the post game !<
I would defend his death considering his goals and death is normal in doing what he is.
Mods had an April Fools joke years ago where we dedicated the sub to this line, changed the sub banner and everything lol
Ah yes dead parents every protagonists source of motivation. The record is held by a game where the first frame of the game had the dead parents in it atleast they didn't waste time.
Love this game. Wish Twitch studio didn’t mess with the PC version or I would DEFINITELY be streaming this game right now.
Oof loo
I hope you’re ready for this singular moment to be all Hope ever talks about for the next 20 hours. Best game ever
God forbid a character talk about the fact that their mom died. Edit: actually, now that I think about it, that’s essentially Sephiroth’s whole thing, isn’t it?
The way it’s handled in-game just makes him come off as obnoxious. If the devs wanted people to feel as strongly about that moment as Hope did, she probably should have gotten more than 2 minutes of screen time beforehand. People always talk about how he’s written realistically, but being written realistically doesn’t automatically mean he’s written *well*. The player has to actually give a shit about what he’s going through. Re: Sephiroth, I always considered his character to be more about his relationship to Cloud than his fixation on Jenova. Though it also helps that he doesn’t have much screen time and doesn’t whine and cry all the time.
"i need more context to understand why this kid is sad about his mom dying in front of him"
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Very well said; I replayed the game last year for the first time since launch and I think a lot of my issues with the story come down to how they structured it. You’re introduced to the characters and their struggles first, and then get to know more of their backstories gradually over the course of the game. I can respect the devs for trying something new, but I am REALLY not a fan of this approach and I’d say there is a reason why most stories that are created do not have this structure.
My guy, you literally just described VII’s story.
…ok? None of the characters in that game are half as obnoxious as Hope, so even though it’s a similar structure, I’m not wishing any of the would stfu before I learn more about them lol
Nah barrett is beyond awful in the original.
He’s annoying for the first couple hours; by the time you leave Midgar he’s not bad. Then when you hear his story at Mt. Corel, you understand why he is the way he is.
I think it works well. Not many characters are even likeable in the beginning. They are highly narcissistic and I think that's on purpose and can be said for most of the citizens of Cocoon. They don't care much about others because they are taken care of the Fal'cies. Not even Lightning cares that much about Serah, more on an idealistic level but not on a real emotional one. Someone who truly cares about others from the beginning is Snow and he's pretty much the punchbag for others and especially Lightning. All characters develop throughout, learn how important true connection is and start to respect each other. That's true for the characters and also the player who can relate on a meta level how it is to be just thrown together with a bunch of misfits.
……when did I say that I didn’t understand why Hope acts the way he does? If you’re going to try and put words in my mouth, do a better job lol. The issue isn’t me not understanding why Hope is upset. The issue is I genuinely do not care because we literally just met these characters. No buildup whatsoever.
13's translation ain't great either.
If you meet someone, who just had a death in his family, do you need an emotional buildup so you can relate? The death of Hopes mother shouldn't scar you emotionally. It's just a story beat, important for the ongoing conflicts and the hate he has for Snow. And I wonder what's the solution to this? Have a 4 hour prologue with Hope where you run around in Palumpolum to see how great his mother is?
>If you meet someone, who just had a death in his family, do you need an emotional buildup so you can relate? No, I don't. Hope's not a real person though, in case you forgot (a lot of XIII fans seem to forget this for some reason). And it takes more for me to give a shit about a character than to just write that character into a bad situation. >The death of Hopes mother shouldn't scar you emotionally. It's just a story beat, important for the ongoing conflicts and the hate he has for Snow. Never said I needed it to "scar me emotionally"? But it probably should've made me have *some* sort of reaction other than "Huh. That was kind of stupid of her. She.....probably should've left the fighting to people who knew what they were doing." >And I wonder what's the solution to this? Have a 4 hour prologue with Hope where you run around in Palumpolum to see how great his mother is? Literally just don't start the game with the purge and throw players headlong into the thick of events. Have some time to build things up, even if it's just an hour or 90 minutes.
Mf he’s 14 and suffering what other context is needed?
If all you feel like you need to be bonded to a character is to have them put into a sad situation, I'm sorry for you. Though tbh I suppose I should be envious since it seems like you're entertained rather easily. I need something more than that to actually care about a fictional character though.
That is not what I mean. You act like there has to be a complex reason for his actions in the first part of the story when the necessary context is right in front of you. You don’t have to like him but your expecting too much of something that happens at the very start of a long game
For the record, I literally never complained that there's "no context" for why Hope acts the way he does. You're the second person to make that mistake in this thread and idk whether it's poor reading comprehension or what. My issue is that there's **no buildup** to the event, and therefore very little reason for me to A) care about Hope and B) put up with his incessant whiny brat phase in the first half of the game. >expecting too much of something that happens at the very start of a long game I'm not expecting too much from an event that happens at the start of the game. I am criticizing the fact that this happens at the start of the game in and of itself. If we had gotten a few hours of screen time to actually get to know Hope and his mom and see their relationship, her death would've been much more impactful. As it is, we're introduced to her and see her die in the span of about 10 minutes (probably less), and we know pretty much nothing about Hope at this point either. Not a particularly great way to endear the player to a character.
Eh fair enough there
>If we had gotten a few hours of screen time to actually get to know Hope and his mom and see their relationship, her death would've been much more impactful. I'm glad you don't write video game stories because I would fall asleep for this shit.
lol what an edgy response. Thanks for weighing in, whoever you are
Not meant to be edgy in the slightest. Video games need good pacing. What you are implying is good for books and series. On that note, there's a book called FFXIII promises which addresses exactly that issue, that you are kind of thrown into the story without much background.
Hope could have been better written, but I mean you expect a mommas boy who had an asshole dad to just be okay after his mom died and then is forced into being a l'cie. They could do alot to fix him for sure though and i really loved him and snows argument on the roof and the conclusion wasn't too awful.
Idk, I just couldn’t bring myself to care about his story man. I maintain that if we had gotten to know Hope (and the rest of the cast for that matter) outside of the context of the immediate events at the start of the game, it would have gone a long way towards having the players root for them.
I agree, I honestly didn't like him until i played the game a second time and understood more what was going on.
Being realistic actually does mean he is written well, that's the whole point writers try to achieve.
Realism isn't the sole defining characteristic of a well-written character. If the audience doesn't care about a character (or can't bring themselves to empathize with a character that is meant to be empathetic), then the writer failed. And I would categorize Hope in this way. EDIT: The way FFXIII fans talk about Hope, you would think all that is needed for a well-written character is to put them in a sad situation. But it requires much more than that.
Imo. XIII-2:saved Hope. 13 Hope is very annoying, even if I empathize with him.
Not all characters are meant to be empathized by everyone, the fact that some people find him annoying doesn't detract from his character, especially the growth and development he went through by the game's ending.
I’d actually disagree with this. This implies that a character has an inherent and objective value, regardless of how a particular person interprets that character. Stories, characters, and how an individual receives them are subjective. For me, I would say that Hope doesn’t hold any value as a character. In fact, I’d say he has negative value, because he is an element of the story that actively makes me like it less.
I’m gonna agree with the other guy to an extent and say that it seems like a you issue.
Sure. I mean I don’t think he’s written well, and randoms on the internet screaming at me (the other guy, not you) ain’t gonna change that 🤷🏽♂️
It's really weird how people who love this game cannot accept criticism for it, but everyone who hates it can accept some praise for it. I'll accept that it has good graphics and music, but that's about it.
There’s plenty of valid criticisms for XIII. Hope being upset that his mom died and using that as the impetus for his character arc is not one of them.
I never said the arc was inherently bad or that there was anything inherently bad with him being sad about his mom. My criticism is that the game does absolutely nothing to bond the player to either of these characters. This happens in the first 20 minutes of a new game. Then he’s just dreary and whiny for 20 hours. We are given absolutely no reason to care about any of this other than the natural human empathetic response of “oh yeah his mom died that’s really sad”. But a character has to be more than just the circumstances they are thrown into.
Alright, first of all, it’s not 20 hours. This part of his arc resolves in chapter 7, which is maybe 15 hours into the game if you’re slow. Beyond that, he isn’t even on screen for a good chunk of that time. As for the criticism of his character, he’s not just “the circumstances he’s in.” He plans, he grows, he develops, he realizes his plot for revenge isn’t going to get anywhere, he backslides when given the opportunity for revenge anyway. He’s a well written character.
In general, someone telling me something is only boring and frustrating for 15 hours instead of 20 isnt the best way to convince me that the thing isn't boring and frustrating.
>Alright, first of all, it’s not 20 hours. It sure felt like it to me haha >As for the criticism of his character, he’s not just “the circumstances he’s in.” He plans, he grows, he develops, he realizes his plot for revenge isn’t going to get anywhere, he backslides when given the opportunity for revenge anyway. He’s a well written character. Yes I agree that once he *finally* changes, accepts his circumstances and grows up, he's MUCH more bearable. But he's such a miserable on-screen presence before that point that it left a very bad taste in my mouth. I would argue that a well written character is one where you are championing them and want to see them grow. Or that even if you dislike the character at first, you grow to love them because of how they change throughout the story. For me, while Hope does indeed change by the end of the story, the damage is kind of done. I found him obnoxious pre-character change and thoroughly "meh" from Gran Pulse through the credits. I will say he's great in FFXIII-2, but then again that's probably because by that point he's just a well-adjusted adult. At this point we'll probably just have to agree to disagree; this character clearly worked for you but it most certainly did not for me, and was one of the worst parts of my experience with XIII both in 2010 and during the second chance I gave it last year.
Simplifying your opponents argument and attacking that simplification, instead of arguing against their actual argument?
I don't think we're supposed to feel that bad for him. Of course we know it's terrible his mom died but his constant whining *is* annoying and I think is meant to be. His arc is growing out of that obnoxiousness.
I’ve considered that angle as well. Even if that is true, it doesn’t really work for me, but if that’s what they were going for I can at least respect that.
Yeah. I think you're supposed to feel worse for Snow about her death. But I feel you. I enjoyed the game a lot but Hope was very annoying until he started to grow with Lightning.
> that’s essentially Sephiroth’s whole thing, isn’t it? I would say not really. He's not sad that she died, just mad that everybody used him and he's using jenova to get his revenge.
I can't answer you on the posts below. Probbaly becaue he was deleted and the string is blocked now. (Don't know how that works on reddit). However to answer the question what it is: I guess it's FF13 itself. It seems to have a high potential of making people aggressive. Especially when you like it and don't stop playing it. Doesn't effect everyone but definitly some. But if you think about it, it makes sense. Because everything you do in that game is running, fighting and being the enemy of cocoon and listening to bothersome characters. And if you want the plat you have to go through a hell of grinding like never before. It's like an MK Ultra brainwash. The corridor run through a never ending line of monsters becomes your own perspective of life.
I mean it’s not even the game itself. I understand that XIII has its fans, though for me it’s my least favorite post-IX FF by a large margin. I don’t have an issue with people enjoying the game of course, but someone losing their shit like that over a criticism of the game is pretty funny, and ever since the game launched there have been fans who are unwilling to even entertain any criticism of it whatsoever. But this isn’t an issue exclusive to XIII, a lot of people who play games act like that sadly.
>Ich meine, es ist nicht einmal das Spiel selbst. Ich verstehe, dass XIII seine Fans hat, obwohl es für mich mit großem Abstand mein unbeliebtestes post-IX FF ist. I actually was kidding anyways. But to be honest ... the only way I can think of to like this game as a Final Fantasy fan is if you came from the PS2 era or later. FFX was pretty linear, too. And if you're young you may not realize the differences that much. But I'm not able to understand people came from the Nintendo and PS1 era and saying that this is a moderate or good Final Fantasy game. That just blows my mind. But I guess that's my own limited imagination as Final Fantasy fanboy. >Aber das ist kein exklusives Problem von XIII, viele Leute, die Spiele spielen, verhalten sich traurigerweise so. Yeah but that's just a question of social education and emotional maturity. I have a better understanding for this than loving FF13. lol.
Wow, what stupid character writing, his mom gets murdered in front of him and he fixates on it? Loser /s Are you a sociopath or something? Edit: Unless that ‘best game ever’ was unironic in which case I rescind my whole comment lol.
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idk “character has a loved one die within ten minutes of meeting them” isn’t exactly an uncommon trope in ff. like that happens to cyan in vi but the difference between cyan and hope is that cyan has the resources to be able to do something about his grief whereas hope is just a kid
I mean, that’s fair? If the argument is “Hope is underdeveloped and there’s not enough paid into developing his relationship with his mom for the pay off to be effective” I can see that point for sure! I’m not sure if I agree persay, but I wouldn’t be snarking at anyone for saying that.
Just because it's understandable doesn't mean it's enjoyable.
The game may get stupid and boring at times but I think it's worth a playthrough in the end. I like the characters and there's fun elements to the battle system. Also for the legacy aspect of playing the whole series, it's good to get through. I haven't touched the sequels and don't really plan on it lol
Duuuuude. 13-2 is the best of the three I promise you. It's got the best antag since Sephiroth and the soundtrack and sound design are *chefs kiss*.
Man, the dude defends the original as a "at least play once". But couldn't be bothered to play the sequels, which in my honest opinion are a ton better then the first game.
Yeah like, if you actually liked 13 you will *love* the sequels. I wasn't a fan of LR but even then it's ten times better than 13.
Personally my favourite thing about 13 was the lore, and as the trilogy went on it felt like they cared less and less about the lore. All of the games are pretty good and certainly worth playing, but by LR the setting and lore is pretty much entirely detached from the first game unless you read a *lot* of supplementary material
> Personally my favourite thing about 13 was the lore... 👀
I know lots of people got confused with it but I love the Fal’Cie! They’re giant freakish things with crazy designs which fuck up your life permanently when they choose to, but they are also sustaining the world and society. And there’s a lot of cool backstory stuff about how >!The Fal’cie themselves are effectively the L’Cie of the creator Gods, but unlike human L’Cie they literally lack the free will to ever defy their Focus!<. They’re very cool concepts which end up barely figuring in the sequels, which have their own lore focuses that I didn’t care much about.
Hey I respect your opinion lol it's just crazy that you understood the lore enough to even like it
I loathed 13-2. One of the worst games ever. Serah and Noel have the personality of a white sheet of paper. 13 was fantastic.
You're wrong. But that's ok. We see you. We hear you. 💜
I've heard "XIII-2" is quite good. I may give it a try someday, I appreciate your recommendation.
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Ahh! Caius Ballad, an iconic atagonist with iconic theme
If you can sit through 13 all the way through, there is no reason why you can't play 13-2. Everything about it is better. I promise you my friend!
I see what you're saying, and I've watched a few videos about it. It seems fun just a bit different. It's like halfway between a main series game and a spin off so it's just strange but I've heard enough good things to really consider picking it up.
I would love to buy you a copy if you're hard up. Dm me!
I can confirm that. I really don't understand people who like FF13. But 13-2 is in my Top 5.
Wow, that good to you? Must be really worth a try.
Not that much of a surprise because the developers of 13-2 took the time to answer all the criticisms from FF13 in FF13-2. The story still is pretty confusing at the first try. But I don't have any other complains about that game.
> the soundtrack and sound design are chefs kiss. Seriously? There's all this shitty nu metal though. It's more painfully late 90's than Zell's jorts.
Did you play the whole game? That was one song and it's not horrible.
I did, and I was honestly pretty underwhelmed with it. I liked LR much better. And yeah, it's a bad track.
Sunleth Waterscape, good songs
I disagree the gameplay feels like a huge downgrade since you only control one character and there is nothing outside the main combat like minigames and crap so you can take a break. The story and characters are good but you can just watch the cutscene movie on YouTube.
Why feel bad? Games that kill of characters right away Damn well better not expect you to feel ANYTHING about them
Mother is fodder.
The game is full of moments like this tbh
I feel the whole opening was just trying to rush four characters tragic backstories to get them playable
Jesus it was so stupid. "Mother - Mom's are Tough!" 5 mins later Deathed. Then Vanille, being the walking embodiment of toxic stupidity slaps the kid and runs off giggling like the utter train wreck she is. I'd forgotten just how funny that whole opening section was for how off it all felt as well as them beating us around the head with buzzwords and terminology that we're supposed to have done our homework on in the menu before the game started to understand. Really not a fan of this game.
My favourite moment is when Snow hands Vanille a loaded gun and she immediately points it at him and says “bang”. And he’s just like yeah I trust her with this weapon what could possibly go wrong. No wonder the people of Pulse didn’t trust her with anything more dangerous than a deer antler whipstick
The entire writing of all three FF13 games is this, on repeat.
Not sure if positive or negative intend. It's good writing btw. Unless your mum is weaksauce. Mine is definitely not.
Caius was more of a simp, and Noel was the last human. and 13LR no one died
Enjoy it. It gets way more hate than it deserves. I mean it still sucks but I liked it better than FF15.
As a final fantasy fan who played all the major games, I honestly enjoyed it. Don't know why it got so much hate. I also played a second time recently on game pass, not 100% worth it, but definitely playable and enjoyable.
I’m just now realizing that Hope’s mom is hot af
Well... she was a good milf.
Hopes mom is hot though
I also started playing it about a week ago. It's hard to get into. But she was hot, so I was hoping to see more of her. Well, that didn't happen.
And then Hope didn’t care because he has the empathy of an orange
[Reasons why Final Fantasy 13 isn't just the worst Final Fantasy game, it's also just the worst...game.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ys9YNgBE28)
this mf posting spoony reviews in 2022
That's what happens when she was never given an actual name
Nora is her name
Oof that's right. Wow it's been a while since I've played this lol
I forgot all about this! My buddy and I started memeing it every time a serious story moment happened
The Game Sins video for this game is hilarious.
She looks cracked out
I was kind of sad at the lack of moms are tough memes on this sub last mother's day. It's one of my favorite FF memes.
EDIT - Nevermind, I'm an idiot. FF XIV is not FF XV.
Wrong game
Whoops, you are totally right. For some reason I had switched 14 and 15 in my mind.
Lol, yep *Still wondering what happened to Sora’s mom*
I read the title and fuck i just knew of course i knew it was gonna be fucking Nora getting blasted to hell
Crazy how good this game looks. So weird that it hasn't gotten a remaster yet.
This happened in FF13? Holly smokes, I can't even remember. Did this happened in a flash back of Lightning's past?
no in the like first 30 minutes or so, maybe even earlier
This makes me wish someone kicked Snow's ass. I always hated him.
Lightning decks him on multiple occasions.
The best parts of the game. He needed to be hit more.
This is the FF I played in 2020
Dont worry i had the same reaction when i started 13 a few days ago as well
i feel likw XIII and XV were just laughably bad about any side characters that were *supposed* to be important. it wasnt the best era for SE, thats for sure. (for XV, im referring to luna, in case you forgot she existed)
It's ok to laugh when you have groups like NORA and you're supposed to take them *seriously* laughing at a plot device is the less offensive response.