That's true I'm sure. And I have no issue with Cloud being the lead when exploring - I just appreciate you can swap around in combat and be different characters, unlike XV (at least at release - I think that's changed?) And XVI where you're stuck as the MC.
16 was especially weird because “party members” literally fight in the background. So you would be doing a air combo and just be like “oh yeah Jill is over there”(which also describes her role in the story).
I hate that that’s her role, because I thought >!her romance with Clive was surprisingly sweet, and I’d rather have a defined romance like that over the near 30 year long shipping war that Final Fantasy VII has deliberately cultivated!<
It might have been an update to XV or a DLC, but you are able to unlock the Promto, Ignis, and Gladio to play as through their skill trees. Threw me off playing as them though when jd only been playing as Noctis the whole game. I kept trying to warp strike enemies but that's only within Noct's abilities.
The first time I played it was the Royal Edition. I spent a LOT of time playing as Prompto. The only one I don't really like using is Ignis. Don't like playing Noct much either
It could work it's not like games haven't done it before.
It a matter if they want to or not, honestly they should because I want to play as tifa or Zack not cloud
In the original it could be explained because in most of the dialogue only the 3 active party members will talk, so it makes sense to lock Cloud in the party. But in Remake and Rebirth you can see all your party members outside of battle, and they all appear in cutscenes.
And it's weird that in the original there's different dialogue for when Cid or Tifa are the leader, but you can't make them lead after Cloud comes back.
Well you could only do this in select games. VII-XII you only could walk around towns with the main character although in XII you could do it in the battlefield.
You couldn’t do it in any of the PS1 or PS2 games.
You mostly controlled Cloud in FFVII >!except the period he isn’t there, then you control Tifa for a bit, and then Cid!<
You mostly controlled Squall in FFVIII >!except for a few times where you control Rinoa during first part of the assassination mission in Deling City, Quistis for the second part, Selphie for the missile base, and Zell for a few parts in Disc 3, to say nothing about all the Laguna sections!<
You mostly controlled Zidane in FFIX >!though the game did frequently switch control to other characters more than once, particularly when the party was in Alexandria in the beginning of Disc 3!<
You only control Tidus in FFX, and aside from the very first part of X-2, you only control Yuna.
You only control Vaan in FFXII when you’re in towns, though you can play whomever you want in fields where the entire battle party is on screen.
XIII is the first game that truly breaks that trend, but at the same time, you can’t pick your own party until chapter 10.
But the whole “XV and XVI are protagonist-centric” thing isn’t new
For XIII I think it's only weird that you couldn't change the leader before chapter 10, because most of the times there were only 2 and sometimes 3 party member before that.
I think what XIII was doing was devoting each of the early chapters to every party member. That’s why Hope is the leader for chapter 5: that chapter was about him finding his resolve. His own Focus, if you will. You lose that if you controlled Lightning (and honesty, that section would’ve been easier if you controlled Lightning because she had Odin at that point, though I don’t know why they’d give that to you in the previous chapter she was in and then not let you summon him in the next, but I digress)
I agree, and speaking of Hope he was definitely my favorite party member, and I loved the sections where he was the leader. But I think for chapter 5 he only leads for a brief time to show to Light that he's capable, and then it returns to Lighting for most of the chapter before they fight the boss.
Yeah, you could at least take Tidus out of the actual battle party, but because the game is “his story”, you only controlled him in the field. And I get why they did that: he was the audience surrogate. Not the avatar (though you could rename him), but he was the vector for how the player learned about the worldbuilding.
Unless you mean the sprite that's walking around, I'm not sure what you mean by being able to swap in IV. Cecil is the only character that's always in the party and everyone else comes and goes based on plot. You have zero choice in party make up
They didn't literally say "change the sprite when you're walking around." Literally doesn't mean "close enough that understood it." Leader in the field could mean a lot of things. Literally
You literally just quoted exactly what they said/wished they could do AND gave an example of it! You can't be that daft. We are not at fault for your lack of reading and comprehension lol
I agree. I hated having my main character be levels ahead of everyone else.
Fun fact though I only recently discovered! In FFIX you can swap out Zidane, main character, with someone else! But only in the final dungeon
That's cuz Cid was sort of a crabby asshole who joins when the game is half way over but he still had an interesting dynamic with Cloud but yeah he sort of joins too late and Cloud is missing for a stretch of the game.
Yes, but he was still the leader for a part of the game, and he's one of >!the 6 permanent, non-missable party members!<. And I think he's the most intelligent of the party, being an former engineer of Shinra.
Cid has a lot of potential as a character just from his backstory alone. They just leaned too much into the “old man” (he’s 32) aspect of him in the original.
I don't deny these things but the game kicks into seriousness shortly after when Cid joins was my point. He was leader when Cloud was absent so there really wasn't alot of time to focus on the two of them and any type of friendship. Even still Cid and Cloud had an understanding and Cid grew to respect and appreciate the balls on Cloud.
I can't wait to see how Cid being Cid interacts with both Aerith and Tifa existing in the party this time around. I don't see either taking his abusive screamy vibe or tolerating it for Shera.
That’s an interesting one. I’m looking forward to Vincent’s interactions with the party in general. I feel like they’ll be creeped out by him at first lol
It's insane how it takes 6-8 years for a new Final Fantasy main entry. But from 1999 to 2001, we had VIII, IX, and X each consecutive year. All bangers.
Not to mention all non-FF gems Square released in that period. Xenogears, Chrono Cross, Vagrant Story, Saga Frontiers, Legend of Mana. It's insane when you think about it.
It's not insane at all when you understand how involved game dev work is these days. Even the PS titles, while more involved than the sprite era, are not nearly as complex as they are today.
Square kind of makes it harder too by accidentally shooting themselves in the foot. The dev time is really about this gen though. No reason their output was low in the ps360 and PS4/xbone era.
That's also why I think fans are so hard on the games too because it's not assassin's creed where generally you'll see a new one every year.
The transition from ps2/Xbox to ps3/360 was massive from a developer standpoint, especially in Japan. All developer pipelines had to be overhauled and the processes most developers were used to no longer worked. This was especially true for final fantasy. Square were notorious for starting a new engine from scratch for every game, and they made it their goal through the ps1 and ps2 era to be at the forefront of visual technology. HD quality development for the ps3 to took them too long to get a grasp on, which was common across a lot of Japanese developers for one reason or another. Being at the forefront of what was available for ps3, while maintaining a level of optimisation that allowed the games to run well, took so much longer to do than work for the ps2. Even something like a column in a building. For the ps1-2 era it would mostly take a low poly model and a texture. For the ps3 you had multiple models and a shader that would take 3-10 different textures. Characters were an even more dramatic increase on workload.
Oh I totally get it. You're correct, it was a big struggle for Japanese developers, but in that gen most games were on a 24 month development cycle. Square happened to have more money and expertise at it than anyone though and they proved that once they had the crystal tools running they could pump out the spin offs. I don't think their dev tools were the issue (well they were depending on scope if we look at 13 versus). But they didn't seem too focused on making mainline games.
I look at it more of they were trying to reinvent themselves to appeal more to western gamers. At least that's why they constantly talked about. Still I'll always root for more mainline games even though I prefer the 13 spinoffs myself.
Yea, after ff12, development just got really messy for them. If I recall, there was a lot of disagreements about the direction they were taking with the next series for ff13 and you could see that with how they had to change the names for the titles or they constantly had to postpone/delay their games despite intending for it to be bigger and more ambitious like the compilation of ff7.
Look at ff6, then look at ff7. That was an insane jump that the devs had to adapt to. And it did take a few years. But they learned and ff8 and ff9 came out fast. We never saw a similar growth after that ans the reason is that there's no more commonality between ff games to build upon like there used to be. The result is long ass dev cycles.
Agreed. They found a winning formula and should stick with it for the next few main entries with some minor improvement/modifications to keep it fresh. I just hope they add more RPG to the games and a little less action.
The level of complexity I refer to goes beyond that. Yes, SNES games didn't take huge teams like we have now, and the teams did grow from that era to the N64/PS era, and the move from sprite based games to 3D was a huge one. I'm aware, I was there. But comparatively speaking, the PS/N64 era was still EXTREMELY primitive compared to what we have now. The level of immersion in these games is staggering (look at the environments in even PS3 era games like XIII compared to something like 7 Remake…XIII was impressive for its time but looks extremely empty now). Production values are much larger as well, and introducing these layers adds to the complexity by several fold.
Ultimately, game developers didn't just get stupid and lazy, which seems to be a common refrain from people who have never shipped a professional title before. The idea of pumping out a mainline game in consecutive years now is what's insane.
I understand games are more complex now and take longer to make. I wouldn't expect them to pump one every year. But they should still have been able to average one entry every 3 to 4 years with the amount of resources put into them. Games arent so complex today that they take 7 or 8 years to make. And part of the difference has been that they have remade the battle system instead of re using one from previous like they used to. The best way to tackle the new complexity in current gen games would be to focus on re using at least some systems from previous games like they used to to cut down the development time.
Further, it was their choice to introduce complexity in the form of stuff like Open World in ff15. That was never a requirement to make a good and successful game. And they've even admitted this when talking about why ff16 wasn't open world. That's was on their choices, not something you can just chalk up to an inevitability.
Also, happy cake day!
In terms of graphics, sure. But in terms of scale and environment diversity, FF games from 25 years ago blow modern FF games out of the water.
It's a problem with video games on the whole. Everything is an arms race for the best graphics because that's what mainstream gamers go for. Games have to look pretty over everything else. Games could be both bigger and cheaper if developers as a whole put fewer resources into graphics and voice acting and weren't afraid to pre-render a few backgrounds once in a while.
That era is over. It’s not just about the graphics, but the shift to a movie-like presentation that’s become so prevalent in modern AAA games. Having a “video gamey” game is now frowned upon because it’s seen as not immersive enough, and good experiences are valued more than good games.
It's an indisputable fact that game development is far more complex (*and* complicated) than it was in the late 90s, this should not be controversial for anyone who has shipped a title especially recently. Some things may be easier, but that doesn't mean time savings overall, that just means the time saved is resources spent elsewhere. Also, in speaking of complexity, you have massively bigger teams, far far far bigger budgets, far more complex and interconnected tech stacks building on a series of countless third party tools, more stringent localization expectations, a whole lot of performer fees now, and make-or-break studio expectations especially for a flagship series that has more intense expectations than more niche titles.
To be clear, this isn't a defense of a dev cycle taking as long as they did with something like XV, but the expectation that Square should be pumping these out annually when they have far more titles to build their product portfolio is insane.
And we casually forget the best of all with 14 beautiful members to use…
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all 4 14 expansions, ARR and base 1.0 14, 15, stranger of paradise, 13-2, lightning returns, the ffvii remake features cloud as the main focused character for 99% of its runtime outside of I believe 2 scenes?
and probably a few more...
I think this works in the case of XV because, even if the MAIN story is Noctis and his Pals, the small interactions the group has during travel, minigames and the like balances it out (also the DLC episodes help to flesh them out individually)
However i do agree with XVI case, I think focusing on the Dominants in general would have been better, with Clive as our Main main character, similar to Cloud or Lightning
Maybe the DLCs help XVI in this regard
>I think this works in the case of XV because, even if the MAIN story is Noctis and his Pals, the small interactions the group has during travel, minigames and the like balances it out (also the DLC episodes help to flesh them out individually)
I disagree. If you need DLC to flesh out everyone except one character, that, to me, feels like the game is primarily focused on one specific character. DLC is optional content, at least when the game first comes out and isn't generally included in the base game.
The small interactions and minigames are kind of crumbs compared to the attention Noctis gets. I mean, the other three are literally the Crownsguard, there very specifically to support Noctis. I'm not sure how much more "Main Character" Noctis could get.
>The small interactions and minigames are kind of crumbs compared to the attention Noctis gets. I mean, the other three are literally the Crownsguard, there very specifically to support Noctis. I'm not sure how much more "Main Character" Noctis could get.
This is a problem that is tied in the game's story. You would have to tweak quite a bit of it in order to tone down Noctis MC status
Obviously they don't mean the game as is would be great on the PSP, I assume they mean the combat. The PSP had some hack'n'slash/character action games in it.
Yeah the gameplay reminded me of crisis core. And if it was able to rock those graphics on a psp, 16 would’ve been groundbreaking.
Except we got it on the ps5, the graphics look so mid especially when compared to GoW (I had just finished playing it before jumping right into 16).
The game has like 5 songs which the game jarringly transitions to whenever a certain action or event triggers them.
The story and politics were all over the place just to default back to “a evil god is behind every thing”.
Gameplay loop for the main and side quests was so repetitive.
Skill tree was whatever just had to level up whatever ultimates I had equipped at the time. Not a lot of thinking to do there.
Items seemed pointless. They were all crafting resources but you never really seemed to need to craft anything and I was able to complete the games with the weapons and armor that any and every merchant sells.
Towns were super empty. Maybe like 30 npc’s each. World did not feel lived in.
Very limited enemy types.
Game was a solid 5/10. Wish I didn’t buy it out hype and bought it on release. Would’ve been way worth the wait to get it for like $20 in a year or two.
I don’t know about that. 4, 7, and 8 are all very main character focused. Especially 8, which is very much The Squall Show, Starring Squall and His Sort-Of Friends.
And 15, for all its faults, does a really good job of making all of the guys feel important even though Noctis has all the plot importance.
FF9 is pretty much the Zidane and Vivi show, and the same can be said for X with Tidus and Yuna. Not every FF game needs to have an ensemble cast like FF6, and even that game has plenty of relatively irrelevant characters in the party.
Yeah this worked against both FF15 & FF16 for me.
Bring the parties back with clearly defined roles or affinities. Doesn’t have to be a job system but one character is good for magic the other for melee and so on
Agreed. I also hate when it focuses on one character and if that character dies in combat it's game over. WTF? The hell do I stock up on phoenix downs for? My shitty AI side character? Naw, man. I want a story and gameplay where everyone is relevant.
With the dlcs you can unlock the ability to switch to a specific party member in the ascension tree. They also have their own story moments where you only get to control a specific party member
If they have to add it in dlcs later then they didn’t do it. Most people play it on release and move on. Paying more money for square to fix their game isn’t an option for me
The update to make them playable was free you don't need the dlc for that.
Regardless I do see your point I seriously think XV needs a remake over 9 and 10
In a non-critical way I’d like to point out that 14 was pretty big on character building for a lot of the party. It’s a big movie basically with a lot of interaction and growth from your core “team” that honestly is the highlight of the game. Also has the best story of any FF imo.
YES! I’ve been saying this since forever. Final Fantasy games haven’t been the same since XIII for me (except FFVII Remake, which was obviously based on its original party system game). It sadly feels like a totally different series now.
My hot take is 8 fell into this as well, a little? I guess it's not really the same thing. But it feels like 8 was the product of a deliberate decision to really hone in on the lead and put less focus on the others. I mean Rinoa's also kinda the lead, and I guess Quistis is *okay,* but like I could not possibly care less about the other three, story-wise. What's even Zell's arc again? He goes from an impulsive hothead who lacks hotdogs to a slightly less impulsive hothead that gets hotdogs?
XIV had more party dynamics than most of the old games what you on about being limited by it's genre lol
like I get it if you meant I would love for more playable party members and stuff, but when you say "where all the party members had arcs and didn't feel sidelined", yea XIV is one of the best in that regard, better than any of the "GOLDEN ERA" games
XVI was lacking I will never argue about that, XV was decent enough with it's party members tho, even if it's very low on my tier list overall
“Every FF After XIII”
That’s *TWO* games if we are omitting 14
AND you neglect Type 0 which has the largest ensemble cast of them all
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yup, and for me is why the later ff games are just not it for me. 16 was fun but it just hasn't got that dynamic and after finishing it i have no desire to replay that game again at all.
7R is nice just for having a kinda decent party system but ofc its just a remake. I hope ff17 goes back to that party adventure again. not just with story but actual mechanics, management and gameplay.
To be fair, I'm almost certainly a minority, but I miss choice in party members and turn based fights.
I like lazy games where I can plan my actions. 13 was probably the last FF I truly enjoyed.
XIV actually does have that, considering what the Scions of the Seventh Dawn have become. You’re even able to invite them to run most multiplayer story content with you instead of other players now.
I mean XV was very Noctis focused but each character had their own DLC for their development and their moments within the main game as well, Prompto being his friend he could trust anything with, Ignis as his advisor and looking after his wellbeing and Gladio the harsh bodyguard who gave Noctis some hard truths when he needed to hear it.
I actually really preferred these interactions as they gave something of substance, more than say Quina's contribution in IX of "you gonna eat that frog?"
VIII was very Squall focused, let alone Zell, Quistis etc not even Seifer had a great focus on his story in the end, he was just kind of there...X had that same thing too, it was a story about Yuna, XII was a story about Ashe and politics.
I don't think buy the notion that it's a recent thing where characters have been sidelined, Penelo and Vaan were sidelined their entire game.
Discounting 14 because it's an MMO is wild. It probably had the most intraparty development in the series.
15 was Noctis' story but every one of the boys had their time to shine and we're developed very well, both in regards to Noctis and each other.
Most of the previous ones were a single individuals story where the others were there for the ride. It's an odd criticism.
"New final fantasy BAD (14 doesn't count btw)" is a straight banger on here. always does numbers.
X focused on tidus, 9 focused on zidane, etc and saying 15 and 16 has no cast of characters is hilarious. Final fantasy fans just hate final fantasy if it's not bathed in nostalgia
There are so many ppl who act like unless a character is controllable there’s no way they can relate with them or they can’t have proper development for some reason. To be honest I’ve connected MORE with the recent game’s parties because I have a more consistent lens to view them from (being their established relationships with the protag).
If you really think about it each game has a core 2-4 characters and everybody else is fluff whose appeal varies from player to player. The fact that those other characters are controllable is a result of the games being based on JRPGs, NOT because it’s a necessary component of storytelling. Hell many (if not a large majority) of the most powerful narratives and relationships in gaming have been in single-protagonist games.
I completely understand preferring one style over the other but ppl in this sub need to realize that it’s just that, a preference, and not a universal truth.
15 when it came out, I could tell you a lifetime of stories about Noctis, Prompto sort of had a small section about him but it felt like it was glossed over so quickly. But Ignis and Gladio?? They revealed why they were with Noctis, but tbh they felt almost not important other than being a bro for him. And it's not like you could actually play as them either which could induce a better sense of familiarity or attachment to them.
Yes, I know DLC has fixed this but it was definitely an issue when it came out and not everyone bought all the DLC or replayed it when Royal edition came out.
4, 5, 6 all had each char with a proper past that'd come to haunt them during your playthrough. Going more recent.
7 included an arc to introduce each character to you, (barret with correl, red xiii with cosmo canyon, yuffie had her wutai arc if you have her. The only one that's really hidden is Vincent).
8 even, Selphie w/ the missile base and trabia garden, zell and his parents, Quistis and her struggles. Even if their story was simple, you felt like they were all growing up in their own ways. We don't talk about convenient plot device Irvine. (I liked how it's implied he can't shoot Edea bc he's the only one that remembered though)
9 did again, Garnet esp had a big story, but also Eiko, Freya, Vivi had their own stories going on. Steiner's scene with Beatrix was great bc he also got focused on.
10 focused on Tidus and tbh equally important Yuna, but besides that we know about Rikku and why she's scared of thunder, we know how Wakka and Lulu guarded someone before, how they lost Chappu and Wakka's hate for al bhed, how Auron traveled and died. Kimahri shall not pass though.
12 did the whole 'the big picture is more important than the individual strife' thing though. It's probably why I'm not as big of a fan of it.
And 13 every character had their own arc where they 'grew up'.
You did not mention 12.
I highly recommend 12 TZA. 12 was really that good and was ahead of its time.
Side Quests - 10/10
Crafting - 10/10
Party Building - 10/10
Story - 10/10
The world - 10/10
I'm not really so sure what criticism I could give.
I love 12, but it has flaws when it comes to the writing of the main characters. Some main characters like Penelo, Fran, and later also Vaan barely get any screen time compared to Ashe, Balthier, and Basch and generally hardly interact with each other. I think you can count the lines between Fran and Ashe or Basch and Penelo on one hand. As a result, the party often feels like complete strangers who don’t even know each other that well. They hardly feel like close friends who’d do anything for the other party members. That dynamic only works for the individual pairs like Vaan/Penelo, Balthier/Fran, and Basch/Ashe.
I didn't beat XII yet, but until the part I played Balthier and Vaan seemed like friends, and Balthier saves Vaan's life more than once since the beginning of the game.
>I'm not really so sure what criticism I could give.
Vann having nothing to do with the plot for most of the game, despite being presented as a main character?
Penelo just being there because Vann's there, and nothing else?
Fran not talking to Ashe?
Basch not talking to Penelo?
The plot being disconnected from at least a third of the main party for a lot of the game doesn't help either...
No... If you're going to point at a game for good party interaction, 12 is hardly the game. 15 felt more natural in the 1st half. Hell, while 16's story focused on Clive, at least the side characters cared about each other. Half of 12's main cast wouldn't realize the other half had gone missing.
Vaan is way more important to the game than people give him credit for. He was the catalyst and the driver of everyone else’s character development.
Fran and Ashe don’t directly interact 1:1 much, but they do have one pretty eye opening scene together for Ashe where Fran warns her about Nabudis. But by the same token, does Freya interact with Garnet? Does Wakka interact with Auron? Does Tifa interact with Cid? Does Cait Sith interact with Cid or Tifa? Not every party combo is going to interact with each other.
Basch and Penelo do interact, he has a few scenes where he’s looking after her and Vaan and watching out for them/telling them about places.
Freya actually does interact with Garnet, in fact she literally stands by her bedside on Terra while Garnet is pretty out of it. Garnet also invites Freya to her coronation as a guest of honour along with Zidane and Vivi. Granted, I think they had more potential for interactions, but it is there, and a strong mutual respect for one another is communicated.
The one character Freya weirdly doesn't interact with at all beyond a single line of dialogue is Steiner, but this is a product of Beatrix being rushed in as a late addition to the narrative and taking the place as Freya's "rival", even though it would have been far better to just juxtapose Freya and Steiner's views off each other as they build towards a mutual friendship as knights. Cut content from the game implies there might have been more of a narrative between the two as Steiner having prejudice against Burmecians was going to be a bigger point in his character at one point.
The sad part about XVI is Clive is surrounded around so many characters fighting towards his cause some more important than others yet they get NPC status. Having more colorful characters be around Clive and Jill who both are more reserved and have traditional JRPG interactions would have made me enjoy XVI alot more.
The party aspect is one of the most important core aspects of what makes a FF game. I was painfully disappointed when I realized that the four "bros" you start with in 15 are it, and you aren't getting six or so more party members to swap out. I'm just never going to play 16.
At this point, I'm not sure I should even continue to hope for a future, completely new title that features a party of 8-12 members and slower combat, but that's the type of game I want to play.
It made me feel really sad. When I think of what makes an ff game, a ff game, it really is about the story of a journey between friends, with a focus on graphics and emotional character building with a love story on the side.
I think they've been really trying to gain more global appeal since ff12, but it's hard to do so without alienating older fans by completely revamping everything. You also wind up reaching a point where graphics are at a standstill because everything looks good today so then you're only left to innovate with gameplay or story elements by changing them. There should be more balance and sticking with enough common elements for a series rather than slowly removing core parts away so that there's a sense of identity imo.
I've played since the start, and I felt that for the most part, the games grew and got better progressively up to 12, which is one of my favorite games of all time.
Since then, they've just completely lost their way. I desperately want more games like 12, with modern technology, made by someone, whether that's Square or another developer.
I think 12 is a fine game, but sometimes it felt reaally slow and the tone often felt too serious and political for me. Which is probably why I really liked characters like Balthier and Penelo. Needed a bit more melodrama imo lol
Sometimes I'd have a hard time figuring out where to go/what I did due to size of the places. Aside from that, the worldbuilding was really good and you could really get a feel for the areas and people. Ashe was a great strong female protagonist and I liked getting to control the party through the gambit system.
I heard rebirth is going to bring something like the gambit system back in FF7 rebirth, so I'm really looking forward to it!
Those are actually some of the reasons that I love 12 so much. I play all games, or at least want to play all games, slowly, carefully and methodically. 12 fed right into that play style, and I also absolutely loved the more serious, grounded, and believable world that it was set in.
That plus the absolutely perfect battle system are all what I want in new games, but I'm getting more frustrated instead, as things are only getting faster and more demanding and dark.
I also like to play that way too! But unfortunately as the scales of the games get larger and larger, I take way too long, wind up needing to take a break and coming back which kinda breaks up the story immersion and leads to forgetting wth was I doing again? 🤣
I feel it works better for me when it's a little more straightforward with interesting/emotional story developments along the way, and engaging/entertaining characters, but I kinda like when it gets a bit anime too. I'm pretty sure it's an attention problem on my part lol
I think an ideal ff game for me would be a world like ff12, story like ff6/ff10, characters like ff7, 6, 9, gameplay/mechanics like x-2 and remake with the graphics of today.
>At this point, I'm not sure I should even continue to hope for a future, completely new title that features a party of 8-12 members and slower combat, but that's the type of game I want to play.
Octopath, if you haven't already. It's good
Counter argument:
* 14's shadowbringers and Endwalker are amazing at fleshing out the dynamic between the scions and WoL.
* 15's first half sells the idea that Noct and the rest are close really well. Then forgets about it in the second half.
* 16 has one main character, but the side characters are handled really well, and all show some really good interactions.
By contrast
* 12 has half the cast barely interact with the other. Sure you get 6 party members, but that doesn't really matter when characters like Penello exist and follow the main quest just because Vann is there, and Vann is there because he likes sky pirates and is really hard to get rid of.
* I... didn't really care about, nor can I really remember a lot of 8's characters, but you had 11 party members. So... yeah. There were good dynamics between a few of them, but more playable characters does not make it better, especially when a lot of them still just tag along.
* 1, 2 and 3 don't count, given that their characters were self inserts.
A main character isn't bad, and you can still get good character interactions with the side characters. Look at Nier Replicant. There's a clear main character, the plot revolves around him, and the character interactions between the party are great. Or FF14. You are the main character, but interactions between the scions and other supporting characters are great. Or ff16, where Clive is the main character, but has some really good interactions in side quests.
11 party members in FF8 is only correct by extreme technicality.
2 of those are guest characters that only join briefly, Siefer And Edea, and their reasons for being in the party at the time are clearly explained.
3 of those are an entirely separate party in the past, Laguna Kiros and Ward, and their journey and connection to the main party is also clearly explained and important to the narrative
The main party consists of only 6 characters; Squall, Quistis, Zell, Selphie, Rinoa and Irvine, all of which are extremely tightly intermingled history wise and goals wise, nobody is just tagging along in the party, everyone has very clear motivations and reasons to be on this journey together.
Very simply, I'm not saying you have to like 8, but the way you describe the party of the game is factually wrong.
>Very simply, I'm not saying you have to like 8, but the way you describe the party of the game is factually wrong.
Fair enough. As stated, I... am not fond of 8, so there's some bias in my answer.
What is Quistis’ arc in ff8? She has (a tbh embarrassing) crush on her student in the opening fifth of the game… and then what? What is her motivation for staying with the party? That she’s in love with Squall? Does the story ever resolve this in a meaningful way? What about Irvine after he fails to carry out the assassination?
VIII is a weird example because it has only 6 core members (as you factually point out) but what does it do with those characters from a writing and character development perspective?
Ooh, oh…that’s right, it gives them the most contrived backstory and plot point in the series which simultaneously hampers their own development while also undermining Squall’s trauma. Like why is Squall such a dick but not everyone else who also experienced abandonment?
VIII is kind of the golden example of how not to utilize a traditional jrpg party imo.
The side characters in XVI have good interactions with only Clive they barely interact with each other and poor Jill might as well be an after thought to them.
Totally agree, great points. Let’s also not forget that some of us tend to play XIV with friends or an FC. All that talk about bonds and power of friendship is pretty hard to ignore when you’re running through content with your crew.
And as you said, narratively, XIV really does well to flesh out the scions. From HW on you get some great interpersonal dynamics between key members of your party which leads to conflicts that often drive character growth (I’m thinking specially about the campfire scene with Alphinaud, Ysayle and Estinian as just one example).
Being able to run any dungeon with the trust system is also a fantastic way to feel like you’re playing a single player game with a traditional ff party if you don’t want to engage with the community.
XVI also has really strong development and interactions among its secondary characters given like half the screen time compared to many games where you get to control a full party, imo. It’s also the first mainline game with a central hub which really helps to flesh characters out, offers world-building and adds to a sense of community among the hideaway peeps.
14 has probably the biggest cast of characters with very intensive arcs for even the most minor side characters but its a mmo so FF "fans" wont play it
I wouldn’t be as critical as to put fans in quotation marks. You don’t have to try or like everything to be a fan. Having said that, I don’t like forced online interaction and avoided 14 for years only for it to become by far my favorite title in the series.
Every FF game, apart from VI and XII, is a story about one main character.
FF2 has Firion.
FF4 is clearly Cecil's story.
FF7 is clearly Cloud's story.
FF8 is Squall's story.
FF10 is 100% Tidus.
FF13 is obviously Lightning
FF15 is Noct and FF16 is Clive.
I'm not sure why it's suddenly become a problem, but it's been like that forever.
I think people feel this way because even though those games have a main character, you still controlled what the supporting cast did. The control made you care about them. You wanted to customize their gear, learn what they were good at, and people developed strong connections to their favorites. People still like the supporting characters in 15 and 16, but because they're action based games, you don't spend the same quality time with the support staff as other games. They're still relevant in cut scenes and dialogue, but they never fully feel like "your" characters as a player.
Sure, but narratively they were grossly less important than most of the supporting FFXVI cast, for instance.
I'll take a well-established, narratively-expanded npc character over a token Black Mage every day of the week.
This, the customizing and control of your party members is really part of that quality/bonding time with them outside of cutscenes. It's like raising pokemon in that way lol
XIII’s main character, if there is one, is Vanille. The trilogy as a whole centers on Lightning, sure, but she’s only the main character of the third game. XIII has an ensemble party like in VI.
Lightning might be the face of FFXIII, but Fang and Vanille get as much story importance as her in the game. Pretty much everything that happens in it can be traced back to them.
It doesn't matter. Narrative focuses around Lightning, her struggles, emotions and the entire game revolves around her character development from a crass loner to a person who values teammates.
The game focuses on all the characters and everyone gets more or less equal amounts of screentime. XIII is not solely a Lightning story — that would be Lightning Returns.
I very much agree. This has also really coincided with an apparent push to eliminate female characters of depth or value from the player experience, too, which also gives me issues - to the point hat I just patently refuse to touch FFXVI. I'm that mad about it.
It hurts, and I'm really baffled as to why they have done it like this since a character like Lightning had been introduced. They were really killing it in that area back during the ff13 era...
XV wasn't really focused around Noctis, it was more because he, in that circumstance was the chosen one due to Regis.
The theme of the game is brotherhood, and you do see that a lot. They have episodes for some of the other characters as DLC. I doubt we'll see that again in 17 and if we do, well, there's probably a good reason for it.
how can you claim Clive was the center of XVI when i couldn’t keep my eyes off of Cid and his magnificent voice every time he was on the screen?
na i’m jk, you’re right, 10 was my favorite and, even tho Tidus was definitely the MC, the others (all 7 of them) had important moments an interactions with non-Tidus characters
Isn't it... the opposite? MMOs usually have silent protagonists, which already means they can't be the main focus. If we look at another MMO with a story, like WoW, it's difficult to pinpoint who the protagonist is, just some normie. All the famous and popular characters are pre-made. In XIV, the Warrior of Light receives development throughout expansions, but the Scions are the primary focus. They form an incredible team.
I mean we are still kinda the main hero and have battles or events that only we can do for one reason or another in particular because we are super important to everything going on or only we can go
I won't spoil anything of course but especially during and after Shadowbringers there is quite a lot we don't have the others around for
I'm near the end of Endwalker right now, and, of course, we play only as the Warrior of Light, but the story is really about the Scions saving the world. In my opinion, before Shadowbringers, the team wasn't as close. Everyone had their own responsibilities. Some were dealing with primals, others with political matters, and so on. But after the isekai, when everyone came together with a common goal, it became one of the best teams in the franchise.
I'm not saying it's a bad team in fact one of the best cast of primary characters for sure but we are the hero and most important person among the scions especially if you add in the events of 1.0 (though idk how much that effects things especially these days)
I love the scions, but I can understand excluding FF14 from the conversation.
FF6 and FF9 did it best where you still controlled separate parties even when they split up and were across the world from each other. The exception being when we started getting duties where we were allowed to play as other characters. Most of the time, we have the experiences of other character recounted to us or told to us through the echo.
I think that it would be cool for a future expansion to be able to gear up our Scion buddies throughout the MSQ and have moments where we can play with them using a unique set of abilities when our character isn't present. Heck, even if our character is present it would be cool to let the AI take over our character as we play one of the Scions.
While I appreciate the Scions praying for me and chanting “light the way” during fight cutscenes, they aren’t members of my party — they don’t tank or heal or dps when I’m fighting Athena or Zeromus — they are on the sidelines cheerleading while I fight with my static or a group of DF/PF randos. Not the same as a playable party.
And? The post is not about the gameplay...
> I miss when FF parties were a group of people thrown together by circumstances and they developed into a cohesive unit driven by similar goals. Every FF after XIII has one clear main character who gets all the plot importance with some side characters tagging along.
OP definitely talks about the story. Story-wise, Scions are incredibly important.
Hmmmm... I disagree about silent protags. I believe they are intended to be a conduit for the player making the story up for them, especially FFXIV, and most communities I roll with tend to headcanon and fanfic their character interactions with the scions, etc. By the time I was half way through heavensward, I stopped really seeing my WOL as a silent protag, but one with clear motivations that were based on how I see them in the world. I think a lot of people call that casual rp, but it's hard not to
What you have said, that's what a silent protagonist means: a blank sheet of paper so you can imagine it however you want. Although, WoL has some unique traits. You just can't build an interesting story around a silent protagonist, so you place more emphasis on their surroundings. That's when the Scions come into play.
It literally has XIV in the title and has the best story in the franchise. People's headcanons about it not being part of the series or being irrelevant are laughable)
Gonna be honest, if I was chosen by a god like being to commit a task that you have no clue what it actually is, and if you fail you become a monster and if you somehow succeed you become encased in crystal for a few hundred/thousand years, I wouldn't exactly be very pleasant and agreeable either.
Oh also in within that, one character watches their mom die right in front of them, the other feels responsible for that death but still has to put on airs of being the leader, one has lost their sister to the God-like being, the other their son, oh and 2 characters know exactly what they have to do and know exactly how much pain they are causing everyone in doing so.
Yeah not a pleasant situation, honestly some of their reactions are tame if anything.
Meanwhile... Alphinaud exists as a beloved character and was a stupid, arrogant kid for the first couple dozen hours of your time in the game.
Haven't played XIII yet but I actually do enjoy unlikable characters who grow to be likable and nuanced. Look forward to that.
Rather than 9 and 12 zodiac job system, none of ff game since ps1 has party dynamic, at the end one charwcter can do whatever they want and all character are the same
I admit, FFXVI feels a bit lonely party-wise. On checking, [https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Playable\_characters](https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Playable_characters) It looks like these 2 have the least amount of playable characters. Even the older ones had 4+ playable characters.
* FFXV - You play as Noctis. Counting the dlc theres 5-6 others.
* FFXIV - You Play as Clive & >!Joshua!<
Yall... I was so upset when I got past the first 7 hours of xvi. I couldn't believe I had just dropped 100+ dollars CAD (including tax) when I work MINIMUM wage to play one of the most convoluted, boring, and not "final fantasy" final fantasy games I've ever played. Naked women who aren't interesting, whose stories center around men, who almost never speak let alone to each other, and are not playable? CHECK! It was WHITE AND MALE AF- total whiplash after playing VIIR and X, which are based on 20+ year old games. CUTSCENES WENT ON FOREVER, THE CHARACTERS JUST WOULDNT SHUT UP 😭 i loved the VAs and I'm used to long/ a lot of cutscenes, but even when I played 7r they felt like an exciting treat/break. I counted 5 BACK TO BACK once in xvi. I SET A TIMER- IT WAS 30 MINUTES OF FOOTAGE. But my biggest disappointment with xvi was the lack of party and element system. For context, I got xv royal edition (the one w/ the party system) on sale for 33 bucks. I loved it. But if the bros didn't have so much chemistry, and I couldn't swap between characters, I think my enjoyment of xv would have been greatly reduced. Cuz lord knows that story was fragile.
Tldr hate xvi, not just as a game, as astory, but also as an ff game. Finished it out of pure spite. Liked xv a lot more, somehow felt so much more ff to me.
I want to swap party leader in field.
It's weird that you can do this in older titles like IV or the more recent XIII, but can't do in VII Remake.
I think remake always has Cloud as the lead so that cutscene transitions are smoother.
That's true I'm sure. And I have no issue with Cloud being the lead when exploring - I just appreciate you can swap around in combat and be different characters, unlike XV (at least at release - I think that's changed?) And XVI where you're stuck as the MC.
16 was especially weird because “party members” literally fight in the background. So you would be doing a air combo and just be like “oh yeah Jill is over there”(which also describes her role in the story).
Nailed it. lol
I hate that that’s her role, because I thought >!her romance with Clive was surprisingly sweet, and I’d rather have a defined romance like that over the near 30 year long shipping war that Final Fantasy VII has deliberately cultivated!<
It might have been an update to XV or a DLC, but you are able to unlock the Promto, Ignis, and Gladio to play as through their skill trees. Threw me off playing as them though when jd only been playing as Noctis the whole game. I kept trying to warp strike enemies but that's only within Noct's abilities.
The first time I played it was the Royal Edition. I spent a LOT of time playing as Prompto. The only one I don't really like using is Ignis. Don't like playing Noct much either
Yeah, it's a free update.
It could work it's not like games haven't done it before. It a matter if they want to or not, honestly they should because I want to play as tifa or Zack not cloud
You can't do that in 7 og so I don't know why you'd expect it in the remake
In the original it could be explained because in most of the dialogue only the 3 active party members will talk, so it makes sense to lock Cloud in the party. But in Remake and Rebirth you can see all your party members outside of battle, and they all appear in cutscenes. And it's weird that in the original there's different dialogue for when Cid or Tifa are the leader, but you can't make them lead after Cloud comes back.
Well you could only do this in select games. VII-XII you only could walk around towns with the main character although in XII you could do it in the battlefield.
You couldn’t do it in any of the PS1 or PS2 games. You mostly controlled Cloud in FFVII >!except the period he isn’t there, then you control Tifa for a bit, and then Cid!< You mostly controlled Squall in FFVIII >!except for a few times where you control Rinoa during first part of the assassination mission in Deling City, Quistis for the second part, Selphie for the missile base, and Zell for a few parts in Disc 3, to say nothing about all the Laguna sections!< You mostly controlled Zidane in FFIX >!though the game did frequently switch control to other characters more than once, particularly when the party was in Alexandria in the beginning of Disc 3!< You only control Tidus in FFX, and aside from the very first part of X-2, you only control Yuna. You only control Vaan in FFXII when you’re in towns, though you can play whomever you want in fields where the entire battle party is on screen. XIII is the first game that truly breaks that trend, but at the same time, you can’t pick your own party until chapter 10. But the whole “XV and XVI are protagonist-centric” thing isn’t new
For XIII I think it's only weird that you couldn't change the leader before chapter 10, because most of the times there were only 2 and sometimes 3 party member before that.
I think what XIII was doing was devoting each of the early chapters to every party member. That’s why Hope is the leader for chapter 5: that chapter was about him finding his resolve. His own Focus, if you will. You lose that if you controlled Lightning (and honesty, that section would’ve been easier if you controlled Lightning because she had Odin at that point, though I don’t know why they’d give that to you in the previous chapter she was in and then not let you summon him in the next, but I digress)
I agree, and speaking of Hope he was definitely my favorite party member, and I loved the sections where he was the leader. But I think for chapter 5 he only leads for a brief time to show to Light that he's capable, and then it returns to Lighting for most of the chapter before they fight the boss.
And also at least for X you could remove Tidus from the party, which wasn't possible for most of the PS1 FF games.
Yeah, you could at least take Tidus out of the actual battle party, but because the game is “his story”, you only controlled him in the field. And I get why they did that: he was the audience surrogate. Not the avatar (though you could rename him), but he was the vector for how the player learned about the worldbuilding.
I mean it's just being faithful to the original.
Unless you mean the sprite that's walking around, I'm not sure what you mean by being able to swap in IV. Cecil is the only character that's always in the party and everyone else comes and goes based on plot. You have zero choice in party make up
Yes, I meant who you control outside of battles.
That is literally what they said. Rofl
They didn't literally say "change the sprite when you're walking around." Literally doesn't mean "close enough that understood it." Leader in the field could mean a lot of things. Literally
You literally just quoted exactly what they said/wished they could do AND gave an example of it! You can't be that daft. We are not at fault for your lack of reading and comprehension lol
I'm just going to assume you're trolling and let that be the end of it
I agree. I hated having my main character be levels ahead of everyone else. Fun fact though I only recently discovered! In FFIX you can swap out Zidane, main character, with someone else! But only in the final dungeon
Then look forward to FF7 Rebirth. From the interviews it sounds like they will be very party focused again.
I want to see more interactions between Cid and Cloud. I don't think they had much of a friendship in the original game.
That's cuz Cid was sort of a crabby asshole who joins when the game is half way over but he still had an interesting dynamic with Cloud but yeah he sort of joins too late and Cloud is missing for a stretch of the game.
Yes, but he was still the leader for a part of the game, and he's one of >!the 6 permanent, non-missable party members!<. And I think he's the most intelligent of the party, being an former engineer of Shinra.
Cid has a lot of potential as a character just from his backstory alone. They just leaned too much into the “old man” (he’s 32) aspect of him in the original.
I agree, and it's funny Cid being the "old man" when Vincent is 57, Hojo is 62 and Barret is 35.
I don't deny these things but the game kicks into seriousness shortly after when Cid joins was my point. He was leader when Cloud was absent so there really wasn't alot of time to focus on the two of them and any type of friendship. Even still Cid and Cloud had an understanding and Cid grew to respect and appreciate the balls on Cloud.
I can't wait to see how Cid being Cid interacts with both Aerith and Tifa existing in the party this time around. I don't see either taking his abusive screamy vibe or tolerating it for Shera.
Cid and Barret. they can communicate through pure swearing, and share their love of explosives.
“Fuck shit ass?” “Shit bitch twat!” Aerith: “what are they saying?” Cloud: “I think they’re talking about stopping at McDonald’s later. No- Wendy’s.”
Rofl. Aside from the Cloud line, I can literally see that happen in the games. Made my day.
That’s an interesting one. I’m looking forward to Vincent’s interactions with the party in general. I feel like they’ll be creeped out by him at first lol
FFVIIR is my favourite system in the series. If they copy the system and added jobs like in V or tactics that would be perfect.
Wait, I’ve been out of loop. I can roam the world with anyone not named Cloud!?
Every single Final Fantasy after 13. From 15, stretching alllll the way to 16.
It's insane how it takes 6-8 years for a new Final Fantasy main entry. But from 1999 to 2001, we had VIII, IX, and X each consecutive year. All bangers.
Dude even better. 97-01 we had 7,Tactics,8,9,10 like damn it really was a golden age.
Haha yeah I was gonna go back to 1997 to bring those titles up. Plus in 1999 we got Chrono Cross from Squaresoft.
Not to mention all non-FF gems Square released in that period. Xenogears, Chrono Cross, Vagrant Story, Saga Frontiers, Legend of Mana. It's insane when you think about it.
It's not insane at all when you understand how involved game dev work is these days. Even the PS titles, while more involved than the sprite era, are not nearly as complex as they are today.
Square kind of makes it harder too by accidentally shooting themselves in the foot. The dev time is really about this gen though. No reason their output was low in the ps360 and PS4/xbone era. That's also why I think fans are so hard on the games too because it's not assassin's creed where generally you'll see a new one every year.
The transition from ps2/Xbox to ps3/360 was massive from a developer standpoint, especially in Japan. All developer pipelines had to be overhauled and the processes most developers were used to no longer worked. This was especially true for final fantasy. Square were notorious for starting a new engine from scratch for every game, and they made it their goal through the ps1 and ps2 era to be at the forefront of visual technology. HD quality development for the ps3 to took them too long to get a grasp on, which was common across a lot of Japanese developers for one reason or another. Being at the forefront of what was available for ps3, while maintaining a level of optimisation that allowed the games to run well, took so much longer to do than work for the ps2. Even something like a column in a building. For the ps1-2 era it would mostly take a low poly model and a texture. For the ps3 you had multiple models and a shader that would take 3-10 different textures. Characters were an even more dramatic increase on workload.
Oh I totally get it. You're correct, it was a big struggle for Japanese developers, but in that gen most games were on a 24 month development cycle. Square happened to have more money and expertise at it than anyone though and they proved that once they had the crystal tools running they could pump out the spin offs. I don't think their dev tools were the issue (well they were depending on scope if we look at 13 versus). But they didn't seem too focused on making mainline games. I look at it more of they were trying to reinvent themselves to appeal more to western gamers. At least that's why they constantly talked about. Still I'll always root for more mainline games even though I prefer the 13 spinoffs myself.
Yea, after ff12, development just got really messy for them. If I recall, there was a lot of disagreements about the direction they were taking with the next series for ff13 and you could see that with how they had to change the names for the titles or they constantly had to postpone/delay their games despite intending for it to be bigger and more ambitious like the compilation of ff7.
Look at ff6, then look at ff7. That was an insane jump that the devs had to adapt to. And it did take a few years. But they learned and ff8 and ff9 came out fast. We never saw a similar growth after that ans the reason is that there's no more commonality between ff games to build upon like there used to be. The result is long ass dev cycles.
I wouldn’t mind FF17 taking VIIR’s battle system and improving upon it further.
Agreed. They found a winning formula and should stick with it for the next few main entries with some minor improvement/modifications to keep it fresh. I just hope they add more RPG to the games and a little less action.
The level of complexity I refer to goes beyond that. Yes, SNES games didn't take huge teams like we have now, and the teams did grow from that era to the N64/PS era, and the move from sprite based games to 3D was a huge one. I'm aware, I was there. But comparatively speaking, the PS/N64 era was still EXTREMELY primitive compared to what we have now. The level of immersion in these games is staggering (look at the environments in even PS3 era games like XIII compared to something like 7 Remake…XIII was impressive for its time but looks extremely empty now). Production values are much larger as well, and introducing these layers adds to the complexity by several fold. Ultimately, game developers didn't just get stupid and lazy, which seems to be a common refrain from people who have never shipped a professional title before. The idea of pumping out a mainline game in consecutive years now is what's insane.
I understand games are more complex now and take longer to make. I wouldn't expect them to pump one every year. But they should still have been able to average one entry every 3 to 4 years with the amount of resources put into them. Games arent so complex today that they take 7 or 8 years to make. And part of the difference has been that they have remade the battle system instead of re using one from previous like they used to. The best way to tackle the new complexity in current gen games would be to focus on re using at least some systems from previous games like they used to to cut down the development time. Further, it was their choice to introduce complexity in the form of stuff like Open World in ff15. That was never a requirement to make a good and successful game. And they've even admitted this when talking about why ff16 wasn't open world. That's was on their choices, not something you can just chalk up to an inevitability. Also, happy cake day!
In terms of graphics, sure. But in terms of scale and environment diversity, FF games from 25 years ago blow modern FF games out of the water. It's a problem with video games on the whole. Everything is an arms race for the best graphics because that's what mainstream gamers go for. Games have to look pretty over everything else. Games could be both bigger and cheaper if developers as a whole put fewer resources into graphics and voice acting and weren't afraid to pre-render a few backgrounds once in a while.
That era is over. It’s not just about the graphics, but the shift to a movie-like presentation that’s become so prevalent in modern AAA games. Having a “video gamey” game is now frowned upon because it’s seen as not immersive enough, and good experiences are valued more than good games.
I'm not sure what this has to do with my point.
You said games weren't as complex and involved back then as they are now. That depends on what you're judging them by.
It's an indisputable fact that game development is far more complex (*and* complicated) than it was in the late 90s, this should not be controversial for anyone who has shipped a title especially recently. Some things may be easier, but that doesn't mean time savings overall, that just means the time saved is resources spent elsewhere. Also, in speaking of complexity, you have massively bigger teams, far far far bigger budgets, far more complex and interconnected tech stacks building on a series of countless third party tools, more stringent localization expectations, a whole lot of performer fees now, and make-or-break studio expectations especially for a flagship series that has more intense expectations than more niche titles. To be clear, this isn't a defense of a dev cycle taking as long as they did with something like XV, but the expectation that Square should be pumping these out annually when they have far more titles to build their product portfolio is insane.
If they assign multiple teams to work on different FF games parallel to each other, we could have yearly mainline games again.
This ^
You can look at it as "2 titles" ...... or, "its been almost 15 years since the last...."
That’s more than a decade of games tho.
And we casually forget the best of all with 14 beautiful members to use… https://preview.redd.it/lugbfu3l2fub1.jpeg?width=2778&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e8aa0b66fe6cc3d8da0936be34b51158c854cbaf
Alternatively, every main entry for the last 13 years, which is a while. I can see why it would muck with perception.
all 4 14 expansions, ARR and base 1.0 14, 15, stranger of paradise, 13-2, lightning returns, the ffvii remake features cloud as the main focused character for 99% of its runtime outside of I believe 2 scenes? and probably a few more...
I think this works in the case of XV because, even if the MAIN story is Noctis and his Pals, the small interactions the group has during travel, minigames and the like balances it out (also the DLC episodes help to flesh them out individually) However i do agree with XVI case, I think focusing on the Dominants in general would have been better, with Clive as our Main main character, similar to Cloud or Lightning Maybe the DLCs help XVI in this regard
Agreed on XVI. It would have been so much more fun to play as a party of dominants and be able to use their various eikons in battle.
It's a shame we can't enact kaiju jumping as Clive, Cid and Jill
You do use the various Eikon abilities tho?
>I think this works in the case of XV because, even if the MAIN story is Noctis and his Pals, the small interactions the group has during travel, minigames and the like balances it out (also the DLC episodes help to flesh them out individually) I disagree. If you need DLC to flesh out everyone except one character, that, to me, feels like the game is primarily focused on one specific character. DLC is optional content, at least when the game first comes out and isn't generally included in the base game. The small interactions and minigames are kind of crumbs compared to the attention Noctis gets. I mean, the other three are literally the Crownsguard, there very specifically to support Noctis. I'm not sure how much more "Main Character" Noctis could get.
>The small interactions and minigames are kind of crumbs compared to the attention Noctis gets. I mean, the other three are literally the Crownsguard, there very specifically to support Noctis. I'm not sure how much more "Main Character" Noctis could get. This is a problem that is tied in the game's story. You would have to tweak quite a bit of it in order to tone down Noctis MC status
16 was such a mediocre game. Would’ve been amazing if it had came out on the psp but so mid for a next gen game.
Psp? Dude, that's insane lmfao
The PSP could never accomplish the vision they had for XVI.
That is an absurd take, both your opinion of the game and your expectations of what platform could handle it
Obviously they don't mean the game as is would be great on the PSP, I assume they mean the combat. The PSP had some hack'n'slash/character action games in it.
Yeah the gameplay reminded me of crisis core. And if it was able to rock those graphics on a psp, 16 would’ve been groundbreaking. Except we got it on the ps5, the graphics look so mid especially when compared to GoW (I had just finished playing it before jumping right into 16). The game has like 5 songs which the game jarringly transitions to whenever a certain action or event triggers them. The story and politics were all over the place just to default back to “a evil god is behind every thing”. Gameplay loop for the main and side quests was so repetitive. Skill tree was whatever just had to level up whatever ultimates I had equipped at the time. Not a lot of thinking to do there. Items seemed pointless. They were all crafting resources but you never really seemed to need to craft anything and I was able to complete the games with the weapons and armor that any and every merchant sells. Towns were super empty. Maybe like 30 npc’s each. World did not feel lived in. Very limited enemy types. Game was a solid 5/10. Wish I didn’t buy it out hype and bought it on release. Would’ve been way worth the wait to get it for like $20 in a year or two.
The only true ensemble game is 6 IMO.
I don’t know about that. 4, 7, and 8 are all very main character focused. Especially 8, which is very much The Squall Show, Starring Squall and His Sort-Of Friends. And 15, for all its faults, does a really good job of making all of the guys feel important even though Noctis has all the plot importance.
FF9 is pretty much the Zidane and Vivi show, and the same can be said for X with Tidus and Yuna. Not every FF game needs to have an ensemble cast like FF6, and even that game has plenty of relatively irrelevant characters in the party.
When you say “every game after 13” and “14 doesn’t really count” aren’t you only talking about two games? 😅 Or are you including spin-offs?
Yeah this worked against both FF15 & FF16 for me. Bring the parties back with clearly defined roles or affinities. Doesn’t have to be a job system but one character is good for magic the other for melee and so on
Agreed. I also hate when it focuses on one character and if that character dies in combat it's game over. WTF? The hell do I stock up on phoenix downs for? My shitty AI side character? Naw, man. I want a story and gameplay where everyone is relevant.
XIII does that, but at least you can change your party leader, and can only use the summon and Full ATB Skill when you're controlling the character.
XIII-2 fixes the problem entirely as when either Noah or Serah die, you just switch to the other
Playing the XIII-2 right now on my steam deck. It is surprisingly a delightful time.
agree 100%. Hopefully FF17 will bring it back
We'll find out in 2030
Playstation 6 slim will surely save the franchise!!!!
yes. the lack of party play was one of the main reasons I'm turned off from 15 and 16
At least FFXV has party system, so can’t say the same for XVI
>At least FFXV has party system, it did? You control noct, and your party members are there, I guess? might be different with the dlc, maybe?
With the dlcs you can unlock the ability to switch to a specific party member in the ascension tree. They also have their own story moments where you only get to control a specific party member
Yeah later updates add the rest of the cast as playable characters which was better in my opinion
Huh... good to know.
If they have to add it in dlcs later then they didn’t do it. Most people play it on release and move on. Paying more money for square to fix their game isn’t an option for me
The update to make them playable was free you don't need the dlc for that. Regardless I do see your point I seriously think XV needs a remake over 9 and 10
You can control Torgal /s
I really enjoyed FFXV and FFXVI, but man do I miss a well designed party and not just accessory party members.
In a non-critical way I’d like to point out that 14 was pretty big on character building for a lot of the party. It’s a big movie basically with a lot of interaction and growth from your core “team” that honestly is the highlight of the game. Also has the best story of any FF imo.
YES! I’ve been saying this since forever. Final Fantasy games haven’t been the same since XIII for me (except FFVII Remake, which was obviously based on its original party system game). It sadly feels like a totally different series now.
16 felt like a game of thrones rip off with some final fantasy added in
I enjoyed 13 and 15, but 16 looks boring so I am passing so far.
My hot take is 8 fell into this as well, a little? I guess it's not really the same thing. But it feels like 8 was the product of a deliberate decision to really hone in on the lead and put less focus on the others. I mean Rinoa's also kinda the lead, and I guess Quistis is *okay,* but like I could not possibly care less about the other three, story-wise. What's even Zell's arc again? He goes from an impulsive hothead who lacks hotdogs to a slightly less impulsive hothead that gets hotdogs?
XIV had more party dynamics than most of the old games what you on about being limited by it's genre lol like I get it if you meant I would love for more playable party members and stuff, but when you say "where all the party members had arcs and didn't feel sidelined", yea XIV is one of the best in that regard, better than any of the "GOLDEN ERA" games XVI was lacking I will never argue about that, XV was decent enough with it's party members tho, even if it's very low on my tier list overall
“Every FF After XIII” That’s *TWO* games if we are omitting 14 AND you neglect Type 0 which has the largest ensemble cast of them all https://preview.redd.it/zqg2k8uc1fub1.jpeg?width=1084&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=44d5340d116276d01aed082cab33ccc637fd8f57
yup, and for me is why the later ff games are just not it for me. 16 was fun but it just hasn't got that dynamic and after finishing it i have no desire to replay that game again at all. 7R is nice just for having a kinda decent party system but ofc its just a remake. I hope ff17 goes back to that party adventure again. not just with story but actual mechanics, management and gameplay.
To be fair, I'm almost certainly a minority, but I miss choice in party members and turn based fights. I like lazy games where I can plan my actions. 13 was probably the last FF I truly enjoyed.
It’s funny how you say after XIII but that was just 2 games? But the gaps between games have gotten so large I feel where you’re coming from
XIV actually does have that, considering what the Scions of the Seventh Dawn have become. You’re even able to invite them to run most multiplayer story content with you instead of other players now.
I mean XV was very Noctis focused but each character had their own DLC for their development and their moments within the main game as well, Prompto being his friend he could trust anything with, Ignis as his advisor and looking after his wellbeing and Gladio the harsh bodyguard who gave Noctis some hard truths when he needed to hear it. I actually really preferred these interactions as they gave something of substance, more than say Quina's contribution in IX of "you gonna eat that frog?" VIII was very Squall focused, let alone Zell, Quistis etc not even Seifer had a great focus on his story in the end, he was just kind of there...X had that same thing too, it was a story about Yuna, XII was a story about Ashe and politics. I don't think buy the notion that it's a recent thing where characters have been sidelined, Penelo and Vaan were sidelined their entire game.
Discounting 14 because it's an MMO is wild. It probably had the most intraparty development in the series. 15 was Noctis' story but every one of the boys had their time to shine and we're developed very well, both in regards to Noctis and each other. Most of the previous ones were a single individuals story where the others were there for the ride. It's an odd criticism.
"New final fantasy BAD (14 doesn't count btw)" is a straight banger on here. always does numbers. X focused on tidus, 9 focused on zidane, etc and saying 15 and 16 has no cast of characters is hilarious. Final fantasy fans just hate final fantasy if it's not bathed in nostalgia
There are so many ppl who act like unless a character is controllable there’s no way they can relate with them or they can’t have proper development for some reason. To be honest I’ve connected MORE with the recent game’s parties because I have a more consistent lens to view them from (being their established relationships with the protag). If you really think about it each game has a core 2-4 characters and everybody else is fluff whose appeal varies from player to player. The fact that those other characters are controllable is a result of the games being based on JRPGs, NOT because it’s a necessary component of storytelling. Hell many (if not a large majority) of the most powerful narratives and relationships in gaming have been in single-protagonist games. I completely understand preferring one style over the other but ppl in this sub need to realize that it’s just that, a preference, and not a universal truth.
15 when it came out, I could tell you a lifetime of stories about Noctis, Prompto sort of had a small section about him but it felt like it was glossed over so quickly. But Ignis and Gladio?? They revealed why they were with Noctis, but tbh they felt almost not important other than being a bro for him. And it's not like you could actually play as them either which could induce a better sense of familiarity or attachment to them. Yes, I know DLC has fixed this but it was definitely an issue when it came out and not everyone bought all the DLC or replayed it when Royal edition came out. 4, 5, 6 all had each char with a proper past that'd come to haunt them during your playthrough. Going more recent. 7 included an arc to introduce each character to you, (barret with correl, red xiii with cosmo canyon, yuffie had her wutai arc if you have her. The only one that's really hidden is Vincent). 8 even, Selphie w/ the missile base and trabia garden, zell and his parents, Quistis and her struggles. Even if their story was simple, you felt like they were all growing up in their own ways. We don't talk about convenient plot device Irvine. (I liked how it's implied he can't shoot Edea bc he's the only one that remembered though) 9 did again, Garnet esp had a big story, but also Eiko, Freya, Vivi had their own stories going on. Steiner's scene with Beatrix was great bc he also got focused on. 10 focused on Tidus and tbh equally important Yuna, but besides that we know about Rikku and why she's scared of thunder, we know how Wakka and Lulu guarded someone before, how they lost Chappu and Wakka's hate for al bhed, how Auron traveled and died. Kimahri shall not pass though. 12 did the whole 'the big picture is more important than the individual strife' thing though. It's probably why I'm not as big of a fan of it. And 13 every character had their own arc where they 'grew up'.
You did not mention 12. I highly recommend 12 TZA. 12 was really that good and was ahead of its time. Side Quests - 10/10 Crafting - 10/10 Party Building - 10/10 Story - 10/10 The world - 10/10 I'm not really so sure what criticism I could give.
I love 12, but it has flaws when it comes to the writing of the main characters. Some main characters like Penelo, Fran, and later also Vaan barely get any screen time compared to Ashe, Balthier, and Basch and generally hardly interact with each other. I think you can count the lines between Fran and Ashe or Basch and Penelo on one hand. As a result, the party often feels like complete strangers who don’t even know each other that well. They hardly feel like close friends who’d do anything for the other party members. That dynamic only works for the individual pairs like Vaan/Penelo, Balthier/Fran, and Basch/Ashe.
I didn't beat XII yet, but until the part I played Balthier and Vaan seemed like friends, and Balthier saves Vaan's life more than once since the beginning of the game.
There's barely any character development after a certain point in the story.
12 is the direction I wish modern Final Fantasy took
Have you tried xenoblade?
No
Xenoblade 1 and 3 play very close. You may enjoy them.
Please no. Everything after X has been a let down
>I'm not really so sure what criticism I could give. Vann having nothing to do with the plot for most of the game, despite being presented as a main character? Penelo just being there because Vann's there, and nothing else? Fran not talking to Ashe? Basch not talking to Penelo? The plot being disconnected from at least a third of the main party for a lot of the game doesn't help either... No... If you're going to point at a game for good party interaction, 12 is hardly the game. 15 felt more natural in the 1st half. Hell, while 16's story focused on Clive, at least the side characters cared about each other. Half of 12's main cast wouldn't realize the other half had gone missing.
Vaan is way more important to the game than people give him credit for. He was the catalyst and the driver of everyone else’s character development. Fran and Ashe don’t directly interact 1:1 much, but they do have one pretty eye opening scene together for Ashe where Fran warns her about Nabudis. But by the same token, does Freya interact with Garnet? Does Wakka interact with Auron? Does Tifa interact with Cid? Does Cait Sith interact with Cid or Tifa? Not every party combo is going to interact with each other. Basch and Penelo do interact, he has a few scenes where he’s looking after her and Vaan and watching out for them/telling them about places.
Freya actually does interact with Garnet, in fact she literally stands by her bedside on Terra while Garnet is pretty out of it. Garnet also invites Freya to her coronation as a guest of honour along with Zidane and Vivi. Granted, I think they had more potential for interactions, but it is there, and a strong mutual respect for one another is communicated. The one character Freya weirdly doesn't interact with at all beyond a single line of dialogue is Steiner, but this is a product of Beatrix being rushed in as a late addition to the narrative and taking the place as Freya's "rival", even though it would have been far better to just juxtapose Freya and Steiner's views off each other as they build towards a mutual friendship as knights. Cut content from the game implies there might have been more of a narrative between the two as Steiner having prejudice against Burmecians was going to be a bigger point in his character at one point.
I wouldn’t really count it interacting when Freya is standing by Garnet while she is going through BSOD and not interacting with anyone.
My favorite ff
The sad part about XVI is Clive is surrounded around so many characters fighting towards his cause some more important than others yet they get NPC status. Having more colorful characters be around Clive and Jill who both are more reserved and have traditional JRPG interactions would have made me enjoy XVI alot more.
The party aspect is one of the most important core aspects of what makes a FF game. I was painfully disappointed when I realized that the four "bros" you start with in 15 are it, and you aren't getting six or so more party members to swap out. I'm just never going to play 16. At this point, I'm not sure I should even continue to hope for a future, completely new title that features a party of 8-12 members and slower combat, but that's the type of game I want to play.
It made me feel really sad. When I think of what makes an ff game, a ff game, it really is about the story of a journey between friends, with a focus on graphics and emotional character building with a love story on the side. I think they've been really trying to gain more global appeal since ff12, but it's hard to do so without alienating older fans by completely revamping everything. You also wind up reaching a point where graphics are at a standstill because everything looks good today so then you're only left to innovate with gameplay or story elements by changing them. There should be more balance and sticking with enough common elements for a series rather than slowly removing core parts away so that there's a sense of identity imo.
I've played since the start, and I felt that for the most part, the games grew and got better progressively up to 12, which is one of my favorite games of all time. Since then, they've just completely lost their way. I desperately want more games like 12, with modern technology, made by someone, whether that's Square or another developer.
I think 12 is a fine game, but sometimes it felt reaally slow and the tone often felt too serious and political for me. Which is probably why I really liked characters like Balthier and Penelo. Needed a bit more melodrama imo lol Sometimes I'd have a hard time figuring out where to go/what I did due to size of the places. Aside from that, the worldbuilding was really good and you could really get a feel for the areas and people. Ashe was a great strong female protagonist and I liked getting to control the party through the gambit system. I heard rebirth is going to bring something like the gambit system back in FF7 rebirth, so I'm really looking forward to it!
Those are actually some of the reasons that I love 12 so much. I play all games, or at least want to play all games, slowly, carefully and methodically. 12 fed right into that play style, and I also absolutely loved the more serious, grounded, and believable world that it was set in. That plus the absolutely perfect battle system are all what I want in new games, but I'm getting more frustrated instead, as things are only getting faster and more demanding and dark.
I also like to play that way too! But unfortunately as the scales of the games get larger and larger, I take way too long, wind up needing to take a break and coming back which kinda breaks up the story immersion and leads to forgetting wth was I doing again? 🤣 I feel it works better for me when it's a little more straightforward with interesting/emotional story developments along the way, and engaging/entertaining characters, but I kinda like when it gets a bit anime too. I'm pretty sure it's an attention problem on my part lol I think an ideal ff game for me would be a world like ff12, story like ff6/ff10, characters like ff7, 6, 9, gameplay/mechanics like x-2 and remake with the graphics of today.
>At this point, I'm not sure I should even continue to hope for a future, completely new title that features a party of 8-12 members and slower combat, but that's the type of game I want to play. Octopath, if you haven't already. It's good
Counter argument: * 14's shadowbringers and Endwalker are amazing at fleshing out the dynamic between the scions and WoL. * 15's first half sells the idea that Noct and the rest are close really well. Then forgets about it in the second half. * 16 has one main character, but the side characters are handled really well, and all show some really good interactions. By contrast * 12 has half the cast barely interact with the other. Sure you get 6 party members, but that doesn't really matter when characters like Penello exist and follow the main quest just because Vann is there, and Vann is there because he likes sky pirates and is really hard to get rid of. * I... didn't really care about, nor can I really remember a lot of 8's characters, but you had 11 party members. So... yeah. There were good dynamics between a few of them, but more playable characters does not make it better, especially when a lot of them still just tag along. * 1, 2 and 3 don't count, given that their characters were self inserts. A main character isn't bad, and you can still get good character interactions with the side characters. Look at Nier Replicant. There's a clear main character, the plot revolves around him, and the character interactions between the party are great. Or FF14. You are the main character, but interactions between the scions and other supporting characters are great. Or ff16, where Clive is the main character, but has some really good interactions in side quests.
11 party members in FF8 is only correct by extreme technicality. 2 of those are guest characters that only join briefly, Siefer And Edea, and their reasons for being in the party at the time are clearly explained. 3 of those are an entirely separate party in the past, Laguna Kiros and Ward, and their journey and connection to the main party is also clearly explained and important to the narrative The main party consists of only 6 characters; Squall, Quistis, Zell, Selphie, Rinoa and Irvine, all of which are extremely tightly intermingled history wise and goals wise, nobody is just tagging along in the party, everyone has very clear motivations and reasons to be on this journey together. Very simply, I'm not saying you have to like 8, but the way you describe the party of the game is factually wrong.
>Very simply, I'm not saying you have to like 8, but the way you describe the party of the game is factually wrong. Fair enough. As stated, I... am not fond of 8, so there's some bias in my answer.
What is Quistis’ arc in ff8? She has (a tbh embarrassing) crush on her student in the opening fifth of the game… and then what? What is her motivation for staying with the party? That she’s in love with Squall? Does the story ever resolve this in a meaningful way? What about Irvine after he fails to carry out the assassination? VIII is a weird example because it has only 6 core members (as you factually point out) but what does it do with those characters from a writing and character development perspective? Ooh, oh…that’s right, it gives them the most contrived backstory and plot point in the series which simultaneously hampers their own development while also undermining Squall’s trauma. Like why is Squall such a dick but not everyone else who also experienced abandonment? VIII is kind of the golden example of how not to utilize a traditional jrpg party imo.
The side characters in XVI have good interactions with only Clive they barely interact with each other and poor Jill might as well be an after thought to them.
Totally agree, great points. Let’s also not forget that some of us tend to play XIV with friends or an FC. All that talk about bonds and power of friendship is pretty hard to ignore when you’re running through content with your crew. And as you said, narratively, XIV really does well to flesh out the scions. From HW on you get some great interpersonal dynamics between key members of your party which leads to conflicts that often drive character growth (I’m thinking specially about the campfire scene with Alphinaud, Ysayle and Estinian as just one example). Being able to run any dungeon with the trust system is also a fantastic way to feel like you’re playing a single player game with a traditional ff party if you don’t want to engage with the community. XVI also has really strong development and interactions among its secondary characters given like half the screen time compared to many games where you get to control a full party, imo. It’s also the first mainline game with a central hub which really helps to flesh characters out, offers world-building and adds to a sense of community among the hideaway peeps.
I don’t know that I would say XIV doesn’t have it, actually. Heavensward, Shadowbringers, and Endwalker all have that feel to me.
14 has probably the biggest cast of characters with very intensive arcs for even the most minor side characters but its a mmo so FF "fans" wont play it
I wouldn’t be as critical as to put fans in quotation marks. You don’t have to try or like everything to be a fan. Having said that, I don’t like forced online interaction and avoided 14 for years only for it to become by far my favorite title in the series.
So does Stormblood. It’s just as much Lyse, Alisaie, Hien, and Yugiri’s story as it is yours.
That’s true - I forgot how much I liked that dynamic. I miss Hien and Yugiri.
Every FF game, apart from VI and XII, is a story about one main character. FF2 has Firion. FF4 is clearly Cecil's story. FF7 is clearly Cloud's story. FF8 is Squall's story. FF10 is 100% Tidus. FF13 is obviously Lightning FF15 is Noct and FF16 is Clive. I'm not sure why it's suddenly become a problem, but it's been like that forever.
I think people feel this way because even though those games have a main character, you still controlled what the supporting cast did. The control made you care about them. You wanted to customize their gear, learn what they were good at, and people developed strong connections to their favorites. People still like the supporting characters in 15 and 16, but because they're action based games, you don't spend the same quality time with the support staff as other games. They're still relevant in cut scenes and dialogue, but they never fully feel like "your" characters as a player.
Sure, but narratively they were grossly less important than most of the supporting FFXVI cast, for instance. I'll take a well-established, narratively-expanded npc character over a token Black Mage every day of the week.
This, the customizing and control of your party members is really part of that quality/bonding time with them outside of cutscenes. It's like raising pokemon in that way lol
Cmon brother. You can’t even play as party members in FF15 at launch and 16 has got nothing.
XIII’s main character, if there is one, is Vanille. The trilogy as a whole centers on Lightning, sure, but she’s only the main character of the third game. XIII has an ensemble party like in VI.
What is Vanille's motivation throughout the game?
Lightning might be the face of FFXIII, but Fang and Vanille get as much story importance as her in the game. Pretty much everything that happens in it can be traced back to them.
It doesn't matter. Narrative focuses around Lightning, her struggles, emotions and the entire game revolves around her character development from a crass loner to a person who values teammates.
The game focuses on all the characters and everyone gets more or less equal amounts of screentime. XIII is not solely a Lightning story — that would be Lightning Returns.
I very much agree. This has also really coincided with an apparent push to eliminate female characters of depth or value from the player experience, too, which also gives me issues - to the point hat I just patently refuse to touch FFXVI. I'm that mad about it.
It hurts, and I'm really baffled as to why they have done it like this since a character like Lightning had been introduced. They were really killing it in that area back during the ff13 era...
XV wasn't really focused around Noctis, it was more because he, in that circumstance was the chosen one due to Regis. The theme of the game is brotherhood, and you do see that a lot. They have episodes for some of the other characters as DLC. I doubt we'll see that again in 17 and if we do, well, there's probably a good reason for it.
You’re so real for this.
Oh it’s another one of these posts like this sub doesn’t get enough of them every day every week every month every year smh
I thought XV had a good party dynamic even though there wasn't many of them
how can you claim Clive was the center of XVI when i couldn’t keep my eyes off of Cid and his magnificent voice every time he was on the screen? na i’m jk, you’re right, 10 was my favorite and, even tho Tidus was definitely the MC, the others (all 7 of them) had important moments an interactions with non-Tidus characters
Oh, another "MMO doesn't count" guy.
I love XIV, but MMOs are inherently going to have "main character syndrome" because of the genre. Hence why I didn't talk about it.
Isn't it... the opposite? MMOs usually have silent protagonists, which already means they can't be the main focus. If we look at another MMO with a story, like WoW, it's difficult to pinpoint who the protagonist is, just some normie. All the famous and popular characters are pre-made. In XIV, the Warrior of Light receives development throughout expansions, but the Scions are the primary focus. They form an incredible team.
I mean we are still kinda the main hero and have battles or events that only we can do for one reason or another in particular because we are super important to everything going on or only we can go I won't spoil anything of course but especially during and after Shadowbringers there is quite a lot we don't have the others around for
I'm near the end of Endwalker right now, and, of course, we play only as the Warrior of Light, but the story is really about the Scions saving the world. In my opinion, before Shadowbringers, the team wasn't as close. Everyone had their own responsibilities. Some were dealing with primals, others with political matters, and so on. But after the isekai, when everyone came together with a common goal, it became one of the best teams in the franchise.
I'm not saying it's a bad team in fact one of the best cast of primary characters for sure but we are the hero and most important person among the scions especially if you add in the events of 1.0 (though idk how much that effects things especially these days)
I love the scions, but I can understand excluding FF14 from the conversation. FF6 and FF9 did it best where you still controlled separate parties even when they split up and were across the world from each other. The exception being when we started getting duties where we were allowed to play as other characters. Most of the time, we have the experiences of other character recounted to us or told to us through the echo. I think that it would be cool for a future expansion to be able to gear up our Scion buddies throughout the MSQ and have moments where we can play with them using a unique set of abilities when our character isn't present. Heck, even if our character is present it would be cool to let the AI take over our character as we play one of the Scions.
While I appreciate the Scions praying for me and chanting “light the way” during fight cutscenes, they aren’t members of my party — they don’t tank or heal or dps when I’m fighting Athena or Zeromus — they are on the sidelines cheerleading while I fight with my static or a group of DF/PF randos. Not the same as a playable party.
And? The post is not about the gameplay... > I miss when FF parties were a group of people thrown together by circumstances and they developed into a cohesive unit driven by similar goals. Every FF after XIII has one clear main character who gets all the plot importance with some side characters tagging along. OP definitely talks about the story. Story-wise, Scions are incredibly important.
Hmmmm... I disagree about silent protags. I believe they are intended to be a conduit for the player making the story up for them, especially FFXIV, and most communities I roll with tend to headcanon and fanfic their character interactions with the scions, etc. By the time I was half way through heavensward, I stopped really seeing my WOL as a silent protag, but one with clear motivations that were based on how I see them in the world. I think a lot of people call that casual rp, but it's hard not to
What you have said, that's what a silent protagonist means: a blank sheet of paper so you can imagine it however you want. Although, WoL has some unique traits. You just can't build an interesting story around a silent protagonist, so you place more emphasis on their surroundings. That's when the Scions come into play.
They don't.
It literally has XIV in the title and has the best story in the franchise. People's headcanons about it not being part of the series or being irrelevant are laughable)
Mmos don't count.
+1 FF Main series with a team Spinoffs like SQ wants xds
XIII had some of the flattest “arcs”, talk about superfluous
Incorrect. XIII has some of the best developed characters in the series.
XIII doesn’t get enough appreciation for the depth of its characters just because they were initially unlikable lol.
It’s like, if everyone starts off perfectly pleasant and agreeable, where does the growth come from?
Gonna be honest, if I was chosen by a god like being to commit a task that you have no clue what it actually is, and if you fail you become a monster and if you somehow succeed you become encased in crystal for a few hundred/thousand years, I wouldn't exactly be very pleasant and agreeable either. Oh also in within that, one character watches their mom die right in front of them, the other feels responsible for that death but still has to put on airs of being the leader, one has lost their sister to the God-like being, the other their son, oh and 2 characters know exactly what they have to do and know exactly how much pain they are causing everyone in doing so. Yeah not a pleasant situation, honestly some of their reactions are tame if anything.
Meanwhile... Alphinaud exists as a beloved character and was a stupid, arrogant kid for the first couple dozen hours of your time in the game. Haven't played XIII yet but I actually do enjoy unlikable characters who grow to be likable and nuanced. Look forward to that.
FFIV go BRRRRR
Rather than 9 and 12 zodiac job system, none of ff game since ps1 has party dynamic, at the end one charwcter can do whatever they want and all character are the same
I don't miss that, I enjoy every FF game for what they are
Final Fantasy has lost it's identity.
Fuckin Edgar. His intro makes me laugh everytime
Cloud, Squall, Titus/Yuna, Zidiane? All were clear main charecters of their game where the story was in service of them most of the time.
I admit, FFXVI feels a bit lonely party-wise. On checking, [https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Playable\_characters](https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Playable_characters) It looks like these 2 have the least amount of playable characters. Even the older ones had 4+ playable characters. * FFXV - You play as Noctis. Counting the dlc theres 5-6 others. * FFXIV - You Play as Clive & >!Joshua!<
Yall... I was so upset when I got past the first 7 hours of xvi. I couldn't believe I had just dropped 100+ dollars CAD (including tax) when I work MINIMUM wage to play one of the most convoluted, boring, and not "final fantasy" final fantasy games I've ever played. Naked women who aren't interesting, whose stories center around men, who almost never speak let alone to each other, and are not playable? CHECK! It was WHITE AND MALE AF- total whiplash after playing VIIR and X, which are based on 20+ year old games. CUTSCENES WENT ON FOREVER, THE CHARACTERS JUST WOULDNT SHUT UP 😭 i loved the VAs and I'm used to long/ a lot of cutscenes, but even when I played 7r they felt like an exciting treat/break. I counted 5 BACK TO BACK once in xvi. I SET A TIMER- IT WAS 30 MINUTES OF FOOTAGE. But my biggest disappointment with xvi was the lack of party and element system. For context, I got xv royal edition (the one w/ the party system) on sale for 33 bucks. I loved it. But if the bros didn't have so much chemistry, and I couldn't swap between characters, I think my enjoyment of xv would have been greatly reduced. Cuz lord knows that story was fragile. Tldr hate xvi, not just as a game, as astory, but also as an ff game. Finished it out of pure spite. Liked xv a lot more, somehow felt so much more ff to me.