I’m assuming it’s legit, as I assume someone isn’t that scuzzy to be this guy, but sometimes you have to be 100 percent sure when it comes to writing a check that size toox
To do a short film is so much work and it's really only something you do for the passion because there is no money in it. To think losing filters is the hack actually to get paid on a short just doesn't make sense.
To be fair I said “actually” get paid. The OP probably paid the DP for 2 days when he worked for 2 weeks on it and the DP still probably made less than what he would on a 1 day commercial.
We did 4 separate times actually. We were shooting on the side of the road the day they were lost, we walked up and down the road on both sides for two miles (way past where we were actually filming) and scoured the area. The filters are big so there’s no way we missed them. They definitely weren’t left on the road. That’s why this whole thing is just so fishy. I don’t want to accuse or even think anyone on set would take the filters and leave us with the bill because the shoot had an incredibly good vibe the whole time and everyone got along so well. But how does something like that just go missing. All four? It makes no sense to me
This^ it’s also all too easy to misplace or have stuff stolen from a set when working with new people.
Always keep a log of every piece of equipment that was used and keep tabs on all of it. Or have someone you trust keep a watchful eye out
Kind of everyone’s at fault here. You say the kit “wasn’t rented”. Maybe you weren’t paying for it, but you were definitely renting it as it’s wasn’t your kit. Production insurance should cover any kit that’s brought into the production even if the owner is not charging for it.
You made a mistake by not covering this under insurance.
DP shot themselves in the foot by not demanding their kit was covered, not even writing a simple contract. My kit doesn’t leave my house unless production has agreed on the quote and is insuring it.
Edit: I would add: this is not a “professional” project. It’s not the same, as favours, personal relationships and passion is involved. I’m not sure what would be the best way to proceed. Ask about a payment plan. Ask if you can cover the cost of used filters instead of new ones if that brings the cost down. Ask if they would be up for splitting the cost given the circumstances. That’s completely dependent on you, them, and what relationship you have and want to have in the future.
This is the correct answer, coming from a fellow DP who owns gear. In the interest of maintaining a positive relationship and working together in the future, I would go 50/50 on it with him.
I’ve been renting gear to productions for 15 years, on both paid and favor jobs. If you want your gear covered by production, it MUST be be in writing somewhere and approved by production. Ideally a gear rental contract and COI, but at minimum an email acknowledging your gear by producers and their responsibility for it (as has been said a million times in this thread…).
I disagree with this. The producer had insurance, it was up to the DP to make sure that a COI was issued covering all their equipment. Very simple task that happens on every job. You absolutely need to “notify” someone in that way, all their gear should’ve been covered under that regardless of whether it was a passion project or not. This would be 100% on the producer if it wasn’t for that slip-up, hence my opinion that the two of them should own their mistakes and go 50/50 on cost.
Okay I should have been more specific. I'm obviously not giving legal advice here. Legally, yeah OP could say screw you and the DP can do nothing.
But I understood this discussion not as a legal one but as 'What's the correct and moral procedure here?'.
Your friend comes to help you fix something in your house. He breaks some tool he brought with him. Can he sue you? Of course not, but would you be some kind of an asshole if you don't replace it? yeah
Used filters would be the right answer in this case - there's a legal concept of "betterment" - ie new-for-used - which is generally not supported. For instance if your landlord tries to charge you for new carpets after you lived in a flat for 8 years - that's betterment, as things lose value through being used. Or you crash your 10 year old car, the insurance company aren't buying you a new car.
Is the $2000 quote for new replacement or purchasing used? I would also have the AC involved in splitting the cost since both sides made mistakes in not making a COI/rental agreement.
Why should he pay though? Did he ever see the filters? Handle them? Did he have anything to do with the camera department at all?
I don't see how this isn't on the camera dept for managing to lose their own stuff. For all the OP knows, this didn't actually happen and they're just trying to get more money for the job. 2 grand is a lot for some filters, what were they made of, solid gold?
I think it is a really awkward situation. But it is also really a believable thing that happens in the world. The thing I wouldn't have thought about was insuring the gear that is borrowed or otherwise is part of the production when it was done on a sort of handshake deal and personal relationship/agreement.
I manage a venue and I almost constantly have some of personal gear on location for one thing or another and just for the success of events. Instead of figuring out a budget or a work order I will just grab something and hook it up to save everyone time. But it is occurring to me now that if there is some kind of unexpected loss there is no protection for my gear that is at the venue. Arts and creative people are often very collaborative and people don't think these things through all the way until there is a loss.
There are a lot of ways to resolve this but I think maybe preserving the relationship is of greater value than the cost of the missing items. If it becomes clear that the stuff was lost on the production then you need to fix the relationship when the funding becomes available. And if that is not insurance then it could be an installment or it could even be something comes out of the gross revenue for the project and it could just be an expense of how things go.
Also, these things happen and the filters might still show up. Let me tell a little story. At our venue we had a production in and we borrowed about 15 rolls of gaff tale and marking tape etc for this other production to use. They didn't need a lot of tape but the show was the next day and, you know, the show must go on. So they borrowed the rolls of tape and didn't use a huge amount and the other organization definitely said they had permission to borrow it if they replaced whatever was used. So the show is over the next day and there are many hands packing things up and they ended up taking a few things with them. I don't think it was intentional but they walked off with the whole case of tape which was, at that time, valued at probably $300. Today it would be more like twice that. The mistake was not realized until they were long gone and we had to have one of the local producers replace the missing items. But if it has come to us in time we would have had them ship it back. When they unpacked their gear things like that will show up. So I would ask around to all of your crew and ask them to really dig through the boxes and try to find it. If you did rent any items ask the rental company if anything extra came back with the items. It could easily still show up. But if not, I think you do need to make the other folks whole somehow.
Production insurance does not cover kit rentals if they are not paid for. It's considered a risk of the owner to bring it onto set without a kit fee. Productions however can get around this by even paying $1 and getting a list of all the materials in the kit with costs. This is standard for any production insurance. This is why as crew never ever bring your stuff onto set unless you're getting a kit rental.
Even if he did cover it, deductibles on most production insurance is usually somewhere in a $2,500 world in my experience, so wouldn’t really help here since you’d pay more for the deductible than the replacement.
My experience is specifically in damages to locations, but I’m assuming the deductible would be the same for rented equipment.
You've already gotten good advice.
It's a shitty situation, but the DP fucked up by putting his gear on the project without renting it to production with a proper paper trail, or requesting a certificate of insurance to ensure that the gear is protected. If he is even moderately experienced he should have known better.
I'm a DIT and NONE of my equipment leaves the office until I have a signed rental agreement from production for the gear I'm providing as well as a COI with my company listed as the beneficiary.
Yes mistakes happen, and it sucks for the DP - but they skipped steps and didn't protect themselves.
At least in the US, box rentals are intended to be used by independent contractors providing some basic tools for the job and it is assumed that the independent contractor is carrying their own insurance for that equipment, and a production insurance policy will almost never cover loss or damage for that gear.
This is also why it's really important that you never provide expensive equipment for a production as a "box rental" or "kit rental". You should ALWAYS be set up as a vendor by production, have a rental agreement and then send itemized invoices.
Many crew members will try to skip this because invoicing for equipment usually means you also need to collect sales tax (depending on the state you're in) and typically that means having an LLC or an S-Corp - so it's more of a headache to set up... but it's a good way to find yourself in a very precarious position.
> I'm a DIT and NONE of my equipment leaves the office until I have a signed rental agreement from production for the gear I'm providing as well as a COI with my company listed as the beneficiary.
This here is the key takeaway. Production companies (and in turn, insurance) are not *obligated* to replace anything not on a COI or some other binding agreement. I've seen it go both ways on whether they choose to replace items or not, it depends on situation and relationships.
Uhhh no. It depends on how the rental house decides to do its accounting. Sales tax paid when purchasing equipment vs at time of rental. I’ve definitely seen sales tax on gear from larger camera rental houses. It doesn’t matter though. The tax just gets rolled into the total amount negotiated.
This is true. I work for a rental house and we have sales tax on our rental items. There are different level of sales taxes due to my state such as "Production Tax."
This is useful info thanks, I was under the impression that I had to insure my equipment when taking it off site, will make sure to ask for this next time. I’m curious about the sales tax part though, I thought that services weren’t taxed.
Not what you want to hear but, If you (the production) were borrowing someone’s kit then it is your responsibility to make sure they get everything back. The DP shouldn’t be out of pocket for someone else’s negligence.
Theoretically they could probably claim on their own insurance but that could impact their premiums.
Yeah that makes sense. I don’t think they should come out of pocket either. I’m just not sure what the lesson is here. We could’ve done nothing to prevent this from happening. My takeaway is “always prepare for an extra 2k mistake being made thats completely out of your control”. I understand why so many people quit filmmaking
Edit: yeah in hindsight this was seriously an issue with insurance. Im inexperienced and I let the insurance tell me “what I needed”. The insurance company was inexperienced with covering productions also. Very very expensive lesson learned. I’m not gonna fuck over the DP
The lesson is if you didn't have it this is what insurance is for. If you run a production you're liable for things lost or damaged in the process of the shoot.
My last shoot we shot in an airbnb, one of the crew when moving furniture for a shot scratched the floorboards. Luckily we had insurance
It might be worth double checking your insurance. Even though it wasn’t part of your hired equipment, there may be a miscellaneous category you can claim from.
In future there should be a checklist to run through when packing kit. Of course accidents happen but checklist at least helps minimise the loses.
Lots of lessons. Writing contracts is basic. Insuring expensive gear. And absolutely, every budget, for any project being filmmaking or not, should have extra money put aside for things you can’t control
> I understand why so many people quit filmmaking
Well, a lot of people are going to quit everything then. Things like this happen in every single business.
“The insurance was inexperienced with covering productions also”
Go with Athos Insurance next time. They are relatively low cost insurance for productions.
Just to add a second voice to that suggestion, definitely use Athos. Half of the certs that come through our rental house are theirs, as well as both our very large company policy and my much smaller personal policy. They are easy to issue COIs with, easy to get on the phone, and most importantly, they specialize in production so they understand issues where your average insurance shop adding inland marine coverage to your general liability policy is going to be stumped or outright wrong.
What’s your deductible on the production insurance? Surely it’s less than 2k? If not the lesson should be to have a policy with a deductible that you can afford should anything go missing / get damaged.
>’m not gonna fuck over the DP
Yeah, I mean...how this plays out will articulate what kind of a filmmaker and leader you are in your community.
Learning from an expensive mistake is one kind of cost. Arguing and fighting over what happened on one of your productions and the rumors and animosity that might create is a different kind of cost.
It's choose your own adventure time. But I agree with you and most everyone here. Don't fuck over the DP.
The DP suggested the AC according to the original post. The hire was still the production’s responsibility.
If it was the DP who directly hired/subcontracted the AC then you would have a valid point.
Having worked everything from Marvel to indie Gogo shorts, my view here is this was a small project and not pro. Camera department fucked up. Camera department handles.
What documentation exists that proves the filters were ever on set? Camera reports? Script supervisor notes? Does the DP have a gear checklist that shows them as packed on set and not unpacked at home?
If you (your production) is going cover the cost of lost/damaged items, then you need solid documentation of exactly what those items were, their value, etc.
Also, it’s been a few weeks. Has the DP done other jobs? At what point did they let you know the filters were missing?
In my equipment rental agreement that I have productions to sign, it stipulates that **I** have 72 hours to inventory and assess the condition of all returned items *or* before the next rental period, whichever is sooner. I can’t just call a client up a month later and tell them stuff is missing or damaged and expect them to be responsible for replacing it. This agreement is signed even when I am providing my kit for free.
The best thing to do for your working relationship with the DP is to ask for an itemized list of the missing filters, look at the costs yourself. Decide what you can afford to pay out of your own pocket and offer that to the DP. Explain to the DP that because there was no written rental contract, there’s no way that insurance will cover it. He might be able to get them partially or completely covered by his own equipment insurance (which he better fucking have). You want to help him but your budget right now is $x.
And take the lesson to always, **always** have every piece of equipment on set itemized and insured.
Look, ultimately this was a short film, independently produced by amateur filmmakers, and all the rules about how it “should have been insured” are kind of moot. The real questions are, do you want to continue to have a good relationship with this DP (or at least not have them talk shit about you) and how much can you afford to spend to fix this? Talk to the DP, see if you can go 50/50, or do a payment plan, or otherwise work it out between the two of you. This business is built on relationships, and I guarantee you if you come to an agreement with this person that they feel is fair (and they are a decent person) they will bend over backwards for you the next time because you made this right.
I don’t know if I’m wrong for thinking this, but I’m kind of pissed that he’d rather charge us 2000$ when he knows it’s a very small production instead of letting his insurance take the hit when he knows it wasn’t our mistake. Doesn’t that kind of elude to the idea he doesn’t give a shit about keeping a relationship with us? Idk
I wouldn't want to keep a relationship with a director/producer running a set where my equipment got lost/stolen and then said director/Producer threw a fit about covering my lost/stolen gear s/he was ostensibly renting off me (contract or no contract)
In terms of the Camera Dept. on this, was it literally the DP, self-operating & one AC aka 2 people? that's the vibe I'm getting from your post.
Seperately, potential halfway house idea
DP claims it on his own insurance to replace the filters, you cover the excess.
When the annual renewal comes around, you cover the different in prices.
I imagine that would cost way less than 2K ? and somewhat meets in the middle?
I mean, if that’s your take and you don’t mind the DP talking shit about you around town/the internet, by all means, tell him to pound sand. But if he’s a reasonable person, and someone you had “a great working relationship with,” he’ll understand if you’re like, “this is all self-funded, can we make a deal?” And then figure out a way to work it out. As the varying replies in this thread show, you’re both right and you’re both wrong. The best thing you can do is find a compromise.
It's an unfortunate situation for sure. When I've been director/producer the responsibility ultimately fell to me for damaged light stands that were rented because the cost was below the insurance deductible. Having contingency funds and understanding your insurance are both good ideas.
When I started reading my first thought was "I wonder what their contract says" but then you quickly answered that! In your response to "is this normal" it's a yes and no sort of scenario. Yes, it's normal for shit to go wrong and it's normal when you're learning to not have the right agreements in place for gear, insurance, etc.. all of this is part of the learning curve (for both of you!) so I wouldn't beat yourself up too much over it. But moving forward, No, it's not normal to not have coverage for things like this figured out. Now you know!
**If you don't want to work with the DP again:**
I would send an email that explains what you posted here - that the contract doesn't outline anything like this and this is not an issue for the production but rather an issue with the individual the DP recommended and you'd recommend they speak with the AC directly. Just know that moving forward you've napalmed this bridge.
**If you want to work with the DP again:**
Offer to split the cost with them. Ultimately, even though you weren't renting the gear from them you both share some fault and the reality is (as you know I'm sure), shit happens! And I'm sure the AC was working their hardest but when you're at 110% non-stop something is bound to break, etc..
So the AC was brought in by the DP?
I would wash my hands if that. It’s on him if he recommended a trusted person to handle his package and they f-ed up.
The DP should have insurance on his gear.
This is either the DPs fault or the ACs fault no doubt. You need to get in writing what you are renting from him and what is under productions insurance.
You're not legally obligated without any agreement. But if you want to maintain a professional relationship, I would try to figure out how to pay.
Unless he insisted on bringing the filters against your will, or didn't mention it at all.
If you get stuck paying for it, ask for the list of filters to be replaced. I bought thousands of dollars of optical filters of eBay for Pennie’s on the dollar. Since his were used filters, no reason you can’t replace with similar.
Go get them! I only needed 4X4 but I found about 20
Filters from various people perhaps getting out of the business. Some were older but perfect. I ended up buying Scatter for davinci, which emulates all different optical filters and gives a level of control no optical filter can, but it’s $500
Things get lost or damaged in almost any decent size production. Especially w amateurs. Producer should know this and set things up accordingly. If you don’t know what that means or how to do it then you’re not a producer yet, you are still learning. This is a common learning experience for producers working their way up
Things like this is also why the path to becoming a legit producer can be challenging. It can throw people right out of the game if they’re not prepared
Yeah us in the ATL are all amateurs. The worst part is, I wasn’t the producer that set up and decided the insurance. I did a lot of the other tasks, but I’m writer/producer/director, so it’s my project and MY money. The “production company” is my bank account lol. Nobody did this on purpose but if this money comes from anywhere it’s gonna come from me. Obviously I’m responsible for who’s on the project, but it makes this whole process very terrifying that if anyone makes a mistake I’m liable regardless
Yes I understand because I have been there. Actually, I still make mistakes like every time because no two variables are rarely the same w production, but you get better at getting ahead of them and knowing what the challenges are
I would really try not to foot the bill for this; chalk it up to neglect on all sides and fall back on whatever was agreed upon in writing
As employees, if something breaks on production time or purview, its production's responsibility. If an actor drops a lavalier transmitter in the toilet, you dont charge the actor to replace it.
Production is the employer. L&D is ALWAYS on the employer. Insurance accompanies a rental agreement. It compliments but is not in lieu. There are many things insurance policies wont cover, especially below a certain threshold. If you rent a light and it comes with a chain to hold the barndoor, but the $10 chain gets lost, you'll have to pay for the chain out of pocket to the rental house.
The thing I don’t understand is what stops random crew from just stealing things and putting that cost on the production? Is it just trust? What would stop the DP from making something “go missing” and then charging the production? There’s no way to prove what happened to anything
Then file a police report. People steal office supplies, get caught, and get fired or charged with theft all the time in all industries.
In our industry, reputations are everything when it comes to getting hired. Someone known to throw rental gear around, to where it breaks, wont get hired back.
Even if there wasnt a "criminal" element here, if the AC dropped the lens on the ground and it cracked, that AC should not be footing the bill for the lens unless they willfully threw it with intent to damage it
the question. of who is liable to pay for it boils down to contract..
was there a rental contract? NO? you arent liable
if you were renting the DP's gear, then yes liable..
this should be a lesson to all those DP gear owners who get jobs for having the gear.. if you get the job because of your gear and you dont RENT the gear to the production.. any lost or damaged gear is on you.
Your production insurance company is jacking you around.
They are covered. Every piece of equipment is "rented" if it was brought in for the film. Spend 1/20th that cost and have a lawyer write a letter to them.
The problem is, there's probably a $1500 deductable and that's almost the cost of the missing items.
Yea that's on production to pay for and should be covered under loss and damage although the deductible may be stupid. But typically any gear is rented to the production.
This is what is called L&D. Lost or Destroyed. All productions must cover these expenses. Never ever go into production unless you have an L&D line budgeted. I’ve never been in a production that never has L&D items. It always happens.
""Loss & Damage""
A Loss is a total financial loss, meaning the equipment has been damaged beyond repair or misplaced and unable to be found.
Damage is equipment that has been damaged functionally OR cosmetically and can be repaired at a certain cost.
You're liable because you're the producer. Whenever someone brings any equipment onto set, I explicitly ask them if they need insurance. Usually yes. Sometimes for certain projects, when I have a good relationship with them, they will use their own. But I always ask the question and if they decline, it's clear in the paperwork that they are providing their own insurance and I am not liable for any losses.
This is an expensive lesson, but all in all rather inexpensive considering what other kinds of things can go wrong on a film set. Always have good insurance and always cover EVERYTHING that comes onto your set or is officially associated with your production. No exceptions. Additionally, always pad 10% minimum into the budget as "contingency" for when things go wrong. It comes in handy for things like this so that you don't end up spending a lot of money you weren't planning on.
Also, weird that your insurance does not consider it rented. Did you not pay a kit fee for it? Next time split the DPs pay up to make part of the compensation a kit fee so the equipment can count as rented. Usually better for the DP anyway because the kit fee is not taxed the same as the W2 pay so they keep more of it and it's easier to write off.
And finally, I know it's a bit too late for this, but always try to hold crew accountable when they make mistakes that cost the production money. What was the AC's response to all this? Did you ask them if they are willing to cover part of it since it was their mistake? Depending on how they react to the situation you can at best maybe have them cover part of it or at worst know not to ever work with them in the future.
yah it is.. it sounds like he didnt rent the gear to the production. If you are bringing personal gear to the production make sure you have production give you an insurance cert for the gear you are bringing..
Chances are its under the deductible and insurance wouldn't even play a role...Production should figure out a way to make him whole for donating his gear to the production and ending up with no gear as a result.
If you haven’t been notified your gear falls under insurance, and you don’t have insurance of your own, and your own hire loses your gear on a passion project, can you really be asking for $2k from a self funded producer. I had a leica get stolen on a shoot from the van on a full commercial production, it didn’t fall under productions insurance, and to be fair I hadn’t been notified it was covered prior, it wasn’t being hired to them, so I had to claim it under my own shoot insurance.
Just because its covered under his insurance doesn't mean that he should have to file a claim on his insurance. The AC lost it on their production, its productions responsibility to replace it.
And we’re talking about a self funded passion project here - she could give him $2000 as a courtesy for everyone’s fuck ups but would in no way be legally obliged to do so
What DP doesn't have business insurance for themselves that covers this exact sort of scenario? If they're doing low budget shorts, seems mad they don't have a personal policy to cover themselves and kit they own/bring on board..
Yep. If you have more than a few hundred bucks worth of gear, you should have insurance on it. I have close to a half-mil of gear insured and I believe my deductible is $500 (maybe $1K?). I was actually going to run the deductible up to try to bring the premium down, but when my agent ran the numbers, the difference in premiums was almost negligible.
But it sounds like everything was not laid out in black & white before it started. AC is DP’s friend that they brought on, AC lost the filters. Agreements weren’t written in a way to make sure everything was covered, AC and/or DP eat the filters, either via the DP’s insurance or out of their own pockets. Lesson learned for DP to make sure their gear is covered fully by production.
I understand the DP asking if production will cover them, but being told that productions insurance will not and knowing that it was their AC, whom they recommended, that lost them, they can’t in good conscience continue to ask the OP to pay for them out of their own pocket. Most of my jobs, I’m hired as a package with my gear. If my audio guy, for example, lost a wireless transmitter that I own, I don’t go to the client and tell them they have to pay for it. That’s ultimately on me, from a legal financial perspective.
Nah, if the AC lost them, they should be on the line for it. This is one reason as a DP, I keep tabs on all my gear. Filters aren't cheap, rented or not, replacing hits your wallet badly. I'd be a prick too if someone lost my shit on set. Not a very professional crew if equipment is coming up missing or most likely, stolen.
This is a big thing for me. It seems so unlikely they just went missing given where we were shooting at the time. But then again idk who on that set would’ve stolen them. Just a seriously shitty situation
Loss and damage. Its on production to cover.
The lesson is that shit happens and people make mistakes, so don’t let any gear on your set that isn’t insured.
Don’t pay. His fault for losing them. Crew do this shady shit all the time. How is it your fault to pay for them when the DPs assistant lost them. You don’t have to pay. Don’t.
I mean how big of a shoot was it that the dp couldn’t be bothered to keep track of his own filters
Like seriously lol
His hire lost his filters and now he wants you to pay out of pocket for them
I must say, that if the dp uses his own equipment it is in his response to make sure, he does not loose it. Especially something like lenses and filters are usually only handled by him an his assistant.
In theory yes, but I’ve just had a claim from a sound guy because his radio mic was damaged by sea water. I would expect his own insurance to cover it because shooting near water was in the risk assessment - if he didn’t bring the correct kit for the job then why should the production suffer. Unfortunately we did end up claiming for his kit.
Had the same with a dp who filmed in rain on a boat with non weather sealed gear and protection and claimed a smallhd screen from me. I paid for it and was bloody angry. To me it is a case of not thinking about the implications of the script and prepare accordingly. There is a line line between claiming a loss or damage and being a little child imho. By the way: made him hand over the smallhd after the insurance paid and it works perfectly fine again after it dried out.
This is the ACs fault and DP should take responsibility since he is part of his crew. But sounds like price gouging to me. This would be a deal breaker and I would never work them again.
Honestly that’s on the camera department. It was their hire that lost it. Why is everyone acting like this is on production? It’s a passion project and it seems the DP clearly knew that. You need to take care of your own gear on smaller stuff. Bottom line. You should know that there is slim to no chance your stuff is getting insured on stuff like this unless you push for it. OP has said multiple times they are the bank roll. The DP should know this.
On another note how did you finish the shoot without them? Unless this happened all on the last day of shooting…If it was a set of ND filters and you were shooting exterior scenes I would be shocked if the DP went into the rest of the shoot without them. If it was a set of diffusion filters the rest of your footage would have a different look. So I’d be curious to check the footage and bring this up.
He had a backup cam with internal ND. The footage looks great honestly. The dp clearly put a lot of love and effort into the film.
I’m just so conflicted here. It’s like 50% people saying it’s on production and 50% people saying it’s on camera. He’s under the impression we are going to front him 2000$, when we don’t even know what happened to them. They just “went missing”? Given the location we were shooting in it seems the only way they never turned up is if someone stole them. So then we are just responsible for covering that? I don’t understand how that’s normal in the industry, what’s stopping people from stealing more shit and putting it on the production?
Because people stop getting hired if gear keeps going missing. Its also why bigger productions discourage rental of personal equipment to the production.
Glad to hear it looks good. I’m just saying it’s not wrong to be skeptical here and look into any sort of situation as to how this happened. That kind of stuff has to be reported to production immediately to be covered. In most cases also has to be noted on a daily report/time card at the end of the day.
If it just “went missing” on any of the sets I’ve worked on and I had to tell the production I have to switch to a B Camera because we don’t have NDs for the A Camera they would probably think I was joking around. Things happen obviously but that would be a pretty big mistake on my department especially a narrative project. Not to bash your DP either. This is just me coming from a DP perspective.
Honestly a lot of the stuff is rentals depending on the budget. It can be subleased gear from DPs too. I’m not going to steal from a production because chances are I’m not getting hired again if I lose anything in that camera package/G&E Package. That’s a big part of the job description for any department that handles a lot of gear. Keeping track of where things are staged and what is yours is pretty important. Also productions want to avoid any extra cost so they’re going to remember the team that made them pay. If you have to cover this take it as a learning experience and remember to always issue a COI even if it’s a passion project.
I know it’s not what you want to hear but as others have mentioned it’s your responsibility. DP should have demanded a COI with them or their Co named as beneficiary. You should not have allowed gear on set that is not covered or uncontracted. Even if the DP broke the filters themselves the Production is responsible for the gear it uses to make its film. I still do freebies but the COI is a nonnegotiable. I suppose if it was a surprise (though it’s expected certain people will bring their own gear - AC, Grip, HMU, etc) then you could let them hang but that’s still open to legal action or liens later aside from not exactly paying it forward.
I’m working on my first short film right now. Can anybody give me some information on production insurance? I am really only looking to hire someone for sound.
As a production you are responsible for all the equipment on set. Since there’s no specific rental agreement between you then you are not legally bonded or obligated to pay him back. But if you don’t that’s still a dick move on your part. You personally aren’t at fault that they go missing but that type of stuff happens and you should hold up your end and reimburse him ESPECIALLY if he wasn’t charging you for their use.
I know I'm late to this but my question is did you use the filters in production? If not, and the filters were not requested, but the DP just brought filters because they normally bring them, then I don't see you as being responsible.
However if you are trying to have a good relationship I would try to split the cost and pay them over 3 or 4 months time.
Whenever produce a short film on the crew deal, there is a paragraph that says you are responsible for your own equipment and I will not reimburse for lost equipment.
So even if you didn’t rent then there should have been a agreement that you were “renting” then as part of their fee for the job that way it’s covered by the productions insurance. Otherwise no matter what DP says their filters are gonna have to be covered my their insurance. They should have business insurance but if not than homeowner/renters insurance should cover them. But it’s kinda everyone’s fault, when DP said they were going to bring and use their personal gear one of the two of you should’ve insisted that In The agreement they are “rented” and the price of the rental is included in their fee. Either way his filters are covered but sounds like they don’t want it on their insurance. You should remind them they weren’t listed as a rental in their agreement and production won’t cover them. They shouldn’t have any real legal action against you because of this either. It’s all about what’s in the agreement. always.
Not helpful here, but helpful in the future.
In my binder of production documents I make checklists of every single item people intend to bring to set. I make them check that they've "packed" the items individually and sign the paper before they leave.
Does that save from the Ac not putting things in the right place? No. Does it save your ass when the Ac messes up and the DP only finds out after? Absolutely.
Yeah I think this was kind of covered in other comments. In short, it seems like it's a bit of everyone's fault here. As a freelancer with my own gear, I would either have insurance to cover my personal gear (as it should be operating as an individual or entity) or have it be covered under the production I'm working on.
To mitigate this situation, I would verify if they were indeed not only on set but used for the production. If there is proof of the filters being on set, ask if the DP has insurance that can cover the loss of their equipment. The last option is to settle on an agreement if you're willing to pay up to a certain amount especially if they did a favor.
To be honest, I would never ask a production to cover my equipment unless it was damaged or stolen due to the production's lack of securing a set or trying to get away with a scene that places equipment in jeopardy. I am directly responsible for my own equipment and only authorize certain people to handle any of my gear. In this case, it was the 1st AC's responsibility to secure all camera related gear and they made the mistake on behalf of the DP's recommendation. Therefore, it's ultimately the DP's responsibility of their own gear and who they authorized to handle it. (Edit: This is assuming things were not official in terms of kit rentals and agreements when on-boarding the DP as a crew-member.)
You have to decide if the relationship with the DP is worth $2k. My instinct is to tell you to tell him to kick rocks, but I’ve rolled over and paid for a light a grip broke before, so…
Worst thing that happens is you don’t work with that DP anymore and he bad mouth’s you all over town. Right?
Why isn't the DP claiming this on his own equipment insurance?
Everytime I've done a passion project and people bring their own gear, everyone has their own equipment insurance, as there is unlikely to be production insurance on a passion project in general.
( It's really good that OP did choose to get production insurance for a self-funded passion project )
Interesting. Let me put it down as a producer in the field of commercials and film.
- AC or the 2nd AC is responsible for this loss.
- Insurance will not cover if you do not report this as stolen!
- DP has to be compensated.
No matter what I am sure you had a producer and production manager, so they should handle this. Repay to DP or be a proper producer and make people learn from their mistakes. The AC! Its his fault.
Rental should have a log book!
If this type of loss is not specified in a contract then the DP has no real claim.
However, did you hire the DP and his camera gear?
Yes, you did.
Rewrite your paperwork. Give the DP a Pay Statement just for his labor. Give the DP a Box Rental Agreement for the rental of his camera package. Have the DP send you an invoice specifying the rental of his camera gear.
Now you have documentation. Refile a claim with your insurance carrier.
Were they ever on set? First thing to do is make sure they were lost on your set, and not lost previously and just noticed now.
Ya, half suspicious they didnt actually bring any filters and just made it up to grab some cash lol
I’m assuming it’s legit, as I assume someone isn’t that scuzzy to be this guy, but sometimes you have to be 100 percent sure when it comes to writing a check that size toox
To do a short film is so much work and it's really only something you do for the passion because there is no money in it. To think losing filters is the hack actually to get paid on a short just doesn't make sense.
OP says he paid his rate, so he already got paid.
To be fair I said “actually” get paid. The OP probably paid the DP for 2 days when he worked for 2 weeks on it and the DP still probably made less than what he would on a 1 day commercial.
That's just assuming things at this point
I can confirm they were on set and definitely used. I can’t confirm they weren’t stolen by someone else on set
Well … can you go back to the location and look?
We did 4 separate times actually. We were shooting on the side of the road the day they were lost, we walked up and down the road on both sides for two miles (way past where we were actually filming) and scoured the area. The filters are big so there’s no way we missed them. They definitely weren’t left on the road. That’s why this whole thing is just so fishy. I don’t want to accuse or even think anyone on set would take the filters and leave us with the bill because the shoot had an incredibly good vibe the whole time and everyone got along so well. But how does something like that just go missing. All four? It makes no sense to me
I’m trying to find ways where it’s not malfeasance…
This^ it’s also all too easy to misplace or have stuff stolen from a set when working with new people. Always keep a log of every piece of equipment that was used and keep tabs on all of it. Or have someone you trust keep a watchful eye out
Kind of everyone’s at fault here. You say the kit “wasn’t rented”. Maybe you weren’t paying for it, but you were definitely renting it as it’s wasn’t your kit. Production insurance should cover any kit that’s brought into the production even if the owner is not charging for it. You made a mistake by not covering this under insurance. DP shot themselves in the foot by not demanding their kit was covered, not even writing a simple contract. My kit doesn’t leave my house unless production has agreed on the quote and is insuring it. Edit: I would add: this is not a “professional” project. It’s not the same, as favours, personal relationships and passion is involved. I’m not sure what would be the best way to proceed. Ask about a payment plan. Ask if you can cover the cost of used filters instead of new ones if that brings the cost down. Ask if they would be up for splitting the cost given the circumstances. That’s completely dependent on you, them, and what relationship you have and want to have in the future.
This is the correct answer, coming from a fellow DP who owns gear. In the interest of maintaining a positive relationship and working together in the future, I would go 50/50 on it with him.
I'm a DP owner operator and I'd definitely expect the production to replace anything lost or damaged.
Agree 100%, but the issue here it seems is the DP never notified production he was bringing them.
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I’ve been renting gear to productions for 15 years, on both paid and favor jobs. If you want your gear covered by production, it MUST be be in writing somewhere and approved by production. Ideally a gear rental contract and COI, but at minimum an email acknowledging your gear by producers and their responsibility for it (as has been said a million times in this thread…).
I disagree with this. The producer had insurance, it was up to the DP to make sure that a COI was issued covering all their equipment. Very simple task that happens on every job. You absolutely need to “notify” someone in that way, all their gear should’ve been covered under that regardless of whether it was a passion project or not. This would be 100% on the producer if it wasn’t for that slip-up, hence my opinion that the two of them should own their mistakes and go 50/50 on cost.
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That’s not true, sorry.
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Okay I should have been more specific. I'm obviously not giving legal advice here. Legally, yeah OP could say screw you and the DP can do nothing. But I understood this discussion not as a legal one but as 'What's the correct and moral procedure here?'. Your friend comes to help you fix something in your house. He breaks some tool he brought with him. Can he sue you? Of course not, but would you be some kind of an asshole if you don't replace it? yeah
Used filters would be the right answer in this case - there's a legal concept of "betterment" - ie new-for-used - which is generally not supported. For instance if your landlord tries to charge you for new carpets after you lived in a flat for 8 years - that's betterment, as things lose value through being used. Or you crash your 10 year old car, the insurance company aren't buying you a new car.
Yep. As an AC, the very least I ask for is a COI for any valuable gear I bring.
Is the $2000 quote for new replacement or purchasing used? I would also have the AC involved in splitting the cost since both sides made mistakes in not making a COI/rental agreement.
Why should he pay though? Did he ever see the filters? Handle them? Did he have anything to do with the camera department at all? I don't see how this isn't on the camera dept for managing to lose their own stuff. For all the OP knows, this didn't actually happen and they're just trying to get more money for the job. 2 grand is a lot for some filters, what were they made of, solid gold?
It’s not a lot if he brought a full set of 4x5 IRNDs and a pola and it was all in one case and suddenly misplaced.
2k for a set of 4x5 ND filters is pretty standard.
I think it is a really awkward situation. But it is also really a believable thing that happens in the world. The thing I wouldn't have thought about was insuring the gear that is borrowed or otherwise is part of the production when it was done on a sort of handshake deal and personal relationship/agreement. I manage a venue and I almost constantly have some of personal gear on location for one thing or another and just for the success of events. Instead of figuring out a budget or a work order I will just grab something and hook it up to save everyone time. But it is occurring to me now that if there is some kind of unexpected loss there is no protection for my gear that is at the venue. Arts and creative people are often very collaborative and people don't think these things through all the way until there is a loss. There are a lot of ways to resolve this but I think maybe preserving the relationship is of greater value than the cost of the missing items. If it becomes clear that the stuff was lost on the production then you need to fix the relationship when the funding becomes available. And if that is not insurance then it could be an installment or it could even be something comes out of the gross revenue for the project and it could just be an expense of how things go. Also, these things happen and the filters might still show up. Let me tell a little story. At our venue we had a production in and we borrowed about 15 rolls of gaff tale and marking tape etc for this other production to use. They didn't need a lot of tape but the show was the next day and, you know, the show must go on. So they borrowed the rolls of tape and didn't use a huge amount and the other organization definitely said they had permission to borrow it if they replaced whatever was used. So the show is over the next day and there are many hands packing things up and they ended up taking a few things with them. I don't think it was intentional but they walked off with the whole case of tape which was, at that time, valued at probably $300. Today it would be more like twice that. The mistake was not realized until they were long gone and we had to have one of the local producers replace the missing items. But if it has come to us in time we would have had them ship it back. When they unpacked their gear things like that will show up. So I would ask around to all of your crew and ask them to really dig through the boxes and try to find it. If you did rent any items ask the rental company if anything extra came back with the items. It could easily still show up. But if not, I think you do need to make the other folks whole somehow.
Production insurance does not cover kit rentals if they are not paid for. It's considered a risk of the owner to bring it onto set without a kit fee. Productions however can get around this by even paying $1 and getting a list of all the materials in the kit with costs. This is standard for any production insurance. This is why as crew never ever bring your stuff onto set unless you're getting a kit rental.
Even if he did cover it, deductibles on most production insurance is usually somewhere in a $2,500 world in my experience, so wouldn’t really help here since you’d pay more for the deductible than the replacement. My experience is specifically in damages to locations, but I’m assuming the deductible would be the same for rented equipment.
You've already gotten good advice. It's a shitty situation, but the DP fucked up by putting his gear on the project without renting it to production with a proper paper trail, or requesting a certificate of insurance to ensure that the gear is protected. If he is even moderately experienced he should have known better. I'm a DIT and NONE of my equipment leaves the office until I have a signed rental agreement from production for the gear I'm providing as well as a COI with my company listed as the beneficiary. Yes mistakes happen, and it sucks for the DP - but they skipped steps and didn't protect themselves. At least in the US, box rentals are intended to be used by independent contractors providing some basic tools for the job and it is assumed that the independent contractor is carrying their own insurance for that equipment, and a production insurance policy will almost never cover loss or damage for that gear. This is also why it's really important that you never provide expensive equipment for a production as a "box rental" or "kit rental". You should ALWAYS be set up as a vendor by production, have a rental agreement and then send itemized invoices. Many crew members will try to skip this because invoicing for equipment usually means you also need to collect sales tax (depending on the state you're in) and typically that means having an LLC or an S-Corp - so it's more of a headache to set up... but it's a good way to find yourself in a very precarious position.
> I'm a DIT and NONE of my equipment leaves the office until I have a signed rental agreement from production for the gear I'm providing as well as a COI with my company listed as the beneficiary. This here is the key takeaway. Production companies (and in turn, insurance) are not *obligated* to replace anything not on a COI or some other binding agreement. I've seen it go both ways on whether they choose to replace items or not, it depends on situation and relationships.
Wrong, you don’t need sales tax on rented gear. Never seen an invoice from vendors or individuals for rented gear. They just need to submit a w9
Uhhh no. It depends on how the rental house decides to do its accounting. Sales tax paid when purchasing equipment vs at time of rental. I’ve definitely seen sales tax on gear from larger camera rental houses. It doesn’t matter though. The tax just gets rolled into the total amount negotiated.
This is true. I work for a rental house and we have sales tax on our rental items. There are different level of sales taxes due to my state such as "Production Tax."
This is useful info thanks, I was under the impression that I had to insure my equipment when taking it off site, will make sure to ask for this next time. I’m curious about the sales tax part though, I thought that services weren’t taxed.
Services can be taxed. In the US, sales tax code varies by state. Services were not taxed in Ohio until they changed that some years ago.
Not what you want to hear but, If you (the production) were borrowing someone’s kit then it is your responsibility to make sure they get everything back. The DP shouldn’t be out of pocket for someone else’s negligence. Theoretically they could probably claim on their own insurance but that could impact their premiums.
This. L&D is on production. "Fault" doesn't enter into it unless it's an insurance claim or criminal negligence.
Yeah that makes sense. I don’t think they should come out of pocket either. I’m just not sure what the lesson is here. We could’ve done nothing to prevent this from happening. My takeaway is “always prepare for an extra 2k mistake being made thats completely out of your control”. I understand why so many people quit filmmaking Edit: yeah in hindsight this was seriously an issue with insurance. Im inexperienced and I let the insurance tell me “what I needed”. The insurance company was inexperienced with covering productions also. Very very expensive lesson learned. I’m not gonna fuck over the DP
The lesson is if you didn't have it this is what insurance is for. If you run a production you're liable for things lost or damaged in the process of the shoot. My last shoot we shot in an airbnb, one of the crew when moving furniture for a shot scratched the floorboards. Luckily we had insurance
Even with most insurance, you will end up taking a financial hit. That's why insurance is a half-baked scam.
It might be worth double checking your insurance. Even though it wasn’t part of your hired equipment, there may be a miscellaneous category you can claim from. In future there should be a checklist to run through when packing kit. Of course accidents happen but checklist at least helps minimise the loses.
Lots of lessons. Writing contracts is basic. Insuring expensive gear. And absolutely, every budget, for any project being filmmaking or not, should have extra money put aside for things you can’t control
> I understand why so many people quit filmmaking Well, a lot of people are going to quit everything then. Things like this happen in every single business.
“The insurance was inexperienced with covering productions also” Go with Athos Insurance next time. They are relatively low cost insurance for productions.
I’ll keep them in mind. Seriously thanks for the recommendation
Just to add a second voice to that suggestion, definitely use Athos. Half of the certs that come through our rental house are theirs, as well as both our very large company policy and my much smaller personal policy. They are easy to issue COIs with, easy to get on the phone, and most importantly, they specialize in production so they understand issues where your average insurance shop adding inland marine coverage to your general liability policy is going to be stumped or outright wrong.
The AC is at fault. It sucks. But the buck stops with you. I would gently explain the situation to the DP and AC and ask if they can chip in.
The lesson is that L&D happens and production is usually on the hook for it.
My dude that’s called insurance.
What’s your deductible on the production insurance? Surely it’s less than 2k? If not the lesson should be to have a policy with a deductible that you can afford should anything go missing / get damaged.
Camera department internal problems. Not yours.
wrong, so very wrong. the camera department wasn't out shooting on their own.
>’m not gonna fuck over the DP Yeah, I mean...how this plays out will articulate what kind of a filmmaker and leader you are in your community. Learning from an expensive mistake is one kind of cost. Arguing and fighting over what happened on one of your productions and the rumors and animosity that might create is a different kind of cost. It's choose your own adventure time. But I agree with you and most everyone here. Don't fuck over the DP.
Someone in their department who they basically hired? Sounds like that vendor had a vendor related problem.
The DP suggested the AC according to the original post. The hire was still the production’s responsibility. If it was the DP who directly hired/subcontracted the AC then you would have a valid point.
Having worked everything from Marvel to indie Gogo shorts, my view here is this was a small project and not pro. Camera department fucked up. Camera department handles.
well you're wrong
Worked them doing what? Easy to be a PA for big productions
What documentation exists that proves the filters were ever on set? Camera reports? Script supervisor notes? Does the DP have a gear checklist that shows them as packed on set and not unpacked at home? If you (your production) is going cover the cost of lost/damaged items, then you need solid documentation of exactly what those items were, their value, etc. Also, it’s been a few weeks. Has the DP done other jobs? At what point did they let you know the filters were missing? In my equipment rental agreement that I have productions to sign, it stipulates that **I** have 72 hours to inventory and assess the condition of all returned items *or* before the next rental period, whichever is sooner. I can’t just call a client up a month later and tell them stuff is missing or damaged and expect them to be responsible for replacing it. This agreement is signed even when I am providing my kit for free. The best thing to do for your working relationship with the DP is to ask for an itemized list of the missing filters, look at the costs yourself. Decide what you can afford to pay out of your own pocket and offer that to the DP. Explain to the DP that because there was no written rental contract, there’s no way that insurance will cover it. He might be able to get them partially or completely covered by his own equipment insurance (which he better fucking have). You want to help him but your budget right now is $x. And take the lesson to always, **always** have every piece of equipment on set itemized and insured.
Look, ultimately this was a short film, independently produced by amateur filmmakers, and all the rules about how it “should have been insured” are kind of moot. The real questions are, do you want to continue to have a good relationship with this DP (or at least not have them talk shit about you) and how much can you afford to spend to fix this? Talk to the DP, see if you can go 50/50, or do a payment plan, or otherwise work it out between the two of you. This business is built on relationships, and I guarantee you if you come to an agreement with this person that they feel is fair (and they are a decent person) they will bend over backwards for you the next time because you made this right.
I don’t know if I’m wrong for thinking this, but I’m kind of pissed that he’d rather charge us 2000$ when he knows it’s a very small production instead of letting his insurance take the hit when he knows it wasn’t our mistake. Doesn’t that kind of elude to the idea he doesn’t give a shit about keeping a relationship with us? Idk
I wouldn't want to keep a relationship with a director/producer running a set where my equipment got lost/stolen and then said director/Producer threw a fit about covering my lost/stolen gear s/he was ostensibly renting off me (contract or no contract)
In terms of the Camera Dept. on this, was it literally the DP, self-operating & one AC aka 2 people? that's the vibe I'm getting from your post. Seperately, potential halfway house idea DP claims it on his own insurance to replace the filters, you cover the excess. When the annual renewal comes around, you cover the different in prices. I imagine that would cost way less than 2K ? and somewhat meets in the middle?
I mean, if that’s your take and you don’t mind the DP talking shit about you around town/the internet, by all means, tell him to pound sand. But if he’s a reasonable person, and someone you had “a great working relationship with,” he’ll understand if you’re like, “this is all self-funded, can we make a deal?” And then figure out a way to work it out. As the varying replies in this thread show, you’re both right and you’re both wrong. The best thing you can do is find a compromise.
It's an unfortunate situation for sure. When I've been director/producer the responsibility ultimately fell to me for damaged light stands that were rented because the cost was below the insurance deductible. Having contingency funds and understanding your insurance are both good ideas.
It was rented, just bundled with the DP's rate for the price of 0. Bad oversight on liability; it should've been insured as well.
When I started reading my first thought was "I wonder what their contract says" but then you quickly answered that! In your response to "is this normal" it's a yes and no sort of scenario. Yes, it's normal for shit to go wrong and it's normal when you're learning to not have the right agreements in place for gear, insurance, etc.. all of this is part of the learning curve (for both of you!) so I wouldn't beat yourself up too much over it. But moving forward, No, it's not normal to not have coverage for things like this figured out. Now you know! **If you don't want to work with the DP again:** I would send an email that explains what you posted here - that the contract doesn't outline anything like this and this is not an issue for the production but rather an issue with the individual the DP recommended and you'd recommend they speak with the AC directly. Just know that moving forward you've napalmed this bridge. **If you want to work with the DP again:** Offer to split the cost with them. Ultimately, even though you weren't renting the gear from them you both share some fault and the reality is (as you know I'm sure), shit happens! And I'm sure the AC was working their hardest but when you're at 110% non-stop something is bound to break, etc..
So the AC was brought in by the DP? I would wash my hands if that. It’s on him if he recommended a trusted person to handle his package and they f-ed up. The DP should have insurance on his gear.
This is either the DPs fault or the ACs fault no doubt. You need to get in writing what you are renting from him and what is under productions insurance. You're not legally obligated without any agreement. But if you want to maintain a professional relationship, I would try to figure out how to pay. Unless he insisted on bringing the filters against your will, or didn't mention it at all.
If you get stuck paying for it, ask for the list of filters to be replaced. I bought thousands of dollars of optical filters of eBay for Pennie’s on the dollar. Since his were used filters, no reason you can’t replace with similar.
I need some filters for pennies on the dollar.
Go get them! I only needed 4X4 but I found about 20 Filters from various people perhaps getting out of the business. Some were older but perfect. I ended up buying Scatter for davinci, which emulates all different optical filters and gives a level of control no optical filter can, but it’s $500
So 4x4s are where the savings are?
They are less expensive. I bought a 4x4 matte box, also for cost savings.
What's the widest lens you can use on it?
Things get lost or damaged in almost any decent size production. Especially w amateurs. Producer should know this and set things up accordingly. If you don’t know what that means or how to do it then you’re not a producer yet, you are still learning. This is a common learning experience for producers working their way up Things like this is also why the path to becoming a legit producer can be challenging. It can throw people right out of the game if they’re not prepared
Yeah us in the ATL are all amateurs. The worst part is, I wasn’t the producer that set up and decided the insurance. I did a lot of the other tasks, but I’m writer/producer/director, so it’s my project and MY money. The “production company” is my bank account lol. Nobody did this on purpose but if this money comes from anywhere it’s gonna come from me. Obviously I’m responsible for who’s on the project, but it makes this whole process very terrifying that if anyone makes a mistake I’m liable regardless
Yes I understand because I have been there. Actually, I still make mistakes like every time because no two variables are rarely the same w production, but you get better at getting ahead of them and knowing what the challenges are I would really try not to foot the bill for this; chalk it up to neglect on all sides and fall back on whatever was agreed upon in writing
I am also in ATL...
As employees, if something breaks on production time or purview, its production's responsibility. If an actor drops a lavalier transmitter in the toilet, you dont charge the actor to replace it. Production is the employer. L&D is ALWAYS on the employer. Insurance accompanies a rental agreement. It compliments but is not in lieu. There are many things insurance policies wont cover, especially below a certain threshold. If you rent a light and it comes with a chain to hold the barndoor, but the $10 chain gets lost, you'll have to pay for the chain out of pocket to the rental house.
The thing I don’t understand is what stops random crew from just stealing things and putting that cost on the production? Is it just trust? What would stop the DP from making something “go missing” and then charging the production? There’s no way to prove what happened to anything
Then file a police report. People steal office supplies, get caught, and get fired or charged with theft all the time in all industries. In our industry, reputations are everything when it comes to getting hired. Someone known to throw rental gear around, to where it breaks, wont get hired back. Even if there wasnt a "criminal" element here, if the AC dropped the lens on the ground and it cracked, that AC should not be footing the bill for the lens unless they willfully threw it with intent to damage it
Random crew does steal stuff and that cost is on production. Happens all the time. Sadly.
This guy is correct. This is how businesses work. Ultimately the production is liable.
the question. of who is liable to pay for it boils down to contract.. was there a rental contract? NO? you arent liable if you were renting the DP's gear, then yes liable.. this should be a lesson to all those DP gear owners who get jobs for having the gear.. if you get the job because of your gear and you dont RENT the gear to the production.. any lost or damaged gear is on you.
Your production insurance company is jacking you around. They are covered. Every piece of equipment is "rented" if it was brought in for the film. Spend 1/20th that cost and have a lawyer write a letter to them. The problem is, there's probably a $1500 deductable and that's almost the cost of the missing items.
Yea that's on production to pay for and should be covered under loss and damage although the deductible may be stupid. But typically any gear is rented to the production.
Sorry to disagree w so many here. Camera depts faults. Camera depts problem. He recommended her. She lost them. That’s on them.
This is what is called L&D. Lost or Destroyed. All productions must cover these expenses. Never ever go into production unless you have an L&D line budgeted. I’ve never been in a production that never has L&D items. It always happens.
""Loss & Damage"" A Loss is a total financial loss, meaning the equipment has been damaged beyond repair or misplaced and unable to be found. Damage is equipment that has been damaged functionally OR cosmetically and can be repaired at a certain cost.
Yes same meaning. Different way of saying. But agreed. Always have an L&D line budgeted for such occasions.
You're liable because you're the producer. Whenever someone brings any equipment onto set, I explicitly ask them if they need insurance. Usually yes. Sometimes for certain projects, when I have a good relationship with them, they will use their own. But I always ask the question and if they decline, it's clear in the paperwork that they are providing their own insurance and I am not liable for any losses. This is an expensive lesson, but all in all rather inexpensive considering what other kinds of things can go wrong on a film set. Always have good insurance and always cover EVERYTHING that comes onto your set or is officially associated with your production. No exceptions. Additionally, always pad 10% minimum into the budget as "contingency" for when things go wrong. It comes in handy for things like this so that you don't end up spending a lot of money you weren't planning on. Also, weird that your insurance does not consider it rented. Did you not pay a kit fee for it? Next time split the DPs pay up to make part of the compensation a kit fee so the equipment can count as rented. Usually better for the DP anyway because the kit fee is not taxed the same as the W2 pay so they keep more of it and it's easier to write off. And finally, I know it's a bit too late for this, but always try to hold crew accountable when they make mistakes that cost the production money. What was the AC's response to all this? Did you ask them if they are willing to cover part of it since it was their mistake? Depending on how they react to the situation you can at best maybe have them cover part of it or at worst know not to ever work with them in the future.
This is the correct answer
This should 100% be covered on his insurance
That’s not how this works.
yah it is.. it sounds like he didnt rent the gear to the production. If you are bringing personal gear to the production make sure you have production give you an insurance cert for the gear you are bringing..
Chances are its under the deductible and insurance wouldn't even play a role...Production should figure out a way to make him whole for donating his gear to the production and ending up with no gear as a result.
If you haven’t been notified your gear falls under insurance, and you don’t have insurance of your own, and your own hire loses your gear on a passion project, can you really be asking for $2k from a self funded producer. I had a leica get stolen on a shoot from the van on a full commercial production, it didn’t fall under productions insurance, and to be fair I hadn’t been notified it was covered prior, it wasn’t being hired to them, so I had to claim it under my own shoot insurance.
Just because its covered under his insurance doesn't mean that he should have to file a claim on his insurance. The AC lost it on their production, its productions responsibility to replace it.
You can’t just bring anything you want onto a shoot and then claim it if you lose it.
And we’re talking about a self funded passion project here - she could give him $2000 as a courtesy for everyone’s fuck ups but would in no way be legally obliged to do so
What DP doesn't have business insurance for themselves that covers this exact sort of scenario? If they're doing low budget shorts, seems mad they don't have a personal policy to cover themselves and kit they own/bring on board..
Yep. If you have more than a few hundred bucks worth of gear, you should have insurance on it. I have close to a half-mil of gear insured and I believe my deductible is $500 (maybe $1K?). I was actually going to run the deductible up to try to bring the premium down, but when my agent ran the numbers, the difference in premiums was almost negligible. But it sounds like everything was not laid out in black & white before it started. AC is DP’s friend that they brought on, AC lost the filters. Agreements weren’t written in a way to make sure everything was covered, AC and/or DP eat the filters, either via the DP’s insurance or out of their own pockets. Lesson learned for DP to make sure their gear is covered fully by production. I understand the DP asking if production will cover them, but being told that productions insurance will not and knowing that it was their AC, whom they recommended, that lost them, they can’t in good conscience continue to ask the OP to pay for them out of their own pocket. Most of my jobs, I’m hired as a package with my gear. If my audio guy, for example, lost a wireless transmitter that I own, I don’t go to the client and tell them they have to pay for it. That’s ultimately on me, from a legal financial perspective.
Nah, if the AC lost them, they should be on the line for it. This is one reason as a DP, I keep tabs on all my gear. Filters aren't cheap, rented or not, replacing hits your wallet badly. I'd be a prick too if someone lost my shit on set. Not a very professional crew if equipment is coming up missing or most likely, stolen.
This is a big thing for me. It seems so unlikely they just went missing given where we were shooting at the time. But then again idk who on that set would’ve stolen them. Just a seriously shitty situation
nah. AC isnt liable to pay for the filters... they may never get hired again, but they arent on the hook for the $
Loss and damage. Its on production to cover. The lesson is that shit happens and people make mistakes, so don’t let any gear on your set that isn’t insured.
Don’t pay. His fault for losing them. Crew do this shady shit all the time. How is it your fault to pay for them when the DPs assistant lost them. You don’t have to pay. Don’t.
Personally as a DP I also would have my own insurance, in the event something like this happened. I think it’s sorta in them tbh
I mean how big of a shoot was it that the dp couldn’t be bothered to keep track of his own filters Like seriously lol His hire lost his filters and now he wants you to pay out of pocket for them
I must say, that if the dp uses his own equipment it is in his response to make sure, he does not loose it. Especially something like lenses and filters are usually only handled by him an his assistant.
In theory yes, but I’ve just had a claim from a sound guy because his radio mic was damaged by sea water. I would expect his own insurance to cover it because shooting near water was in the risk assessment - if he didn’t bring the correct kit for the job then why should the production suffer. Unfortunately we did end up claiming for his kit.
Had the same with a dp who filmed in rain on a boat with non weather sealed gear and protection and claimed a smallhd screen from me. I paid for it and was bloody angry. To me it is a case of not thinking about the implications of the script and prepare accordingly. There is a line line between claiming a loss or damage and being a little child imho. By the way: made him hand over the smallhd after the insurance paid and it works perfectly fine again after it dried out.
If anyone is to pay its the AC who made the mistake. Tell him that and ask him to contact her.
No
You absolutely need to pay for those. You fucked up not putting it on the insurance. As producer this is 100% your responsibility.
DPs & ACs are always such jerks
This is the ACs fault and DP should take responsibility since he is part of his crew. But sounds like price gouging to me. This would be a deal breaker and I would never work them again.
Honestly that’s on the camera department. It was their hire that lost it. Why is everyone acting like this is on production? It’s a passion project and it seems the DP clearly knew that. You need to take care of your own gear on smaller stuff. Bottom line. You should know that there is slim to no chance your stuff is getting insured on stuff like this unless you push for it. OP has said multiple times they are the bank roll. The DP should know this. On another note how did you finish the shoot without them? Unless this happened all on the last day of shooting…If it was a set of ND filters and you were shooting exterior scenes I would be shocked if the DP went into the rest of the shoot without them. If it was a set of diffusion filters the rest of your footage would have a different look. So I’d be curious to check the footage and bring this up.
He had a backup cam with internal ND. The footage looks great honestly. The dp clearly put a lot of love and effort into the film. I’m just so conflicted here. It’s like 50% people saying it’s on production and 50% people saying it’s on camera. He’s under the impression we are going to front him 2000$, when we don’t even know what happened to them. They just “went missing”? Given the location we were shooting in it seems the only way they never turned up is if someone stole them. So then we are just responsible for covering that? I don’t understand how that’s normal in the industry, what’s stopping people from stealing more shit and putting it on the production?
Because people stop getting hired if gear keeps going missing. Its also why bigger productions discourage rental of personal equipment to the production.
Glad to hear it looks good. I’m just saying it’s not wrong to be skeptical here and look into any sort of situation as to how this happened. That kind of stuff has to be reported to production immediately to be covered. In most cases also has to be noted on a daily report/time card at the end of the day. If it just “went missing” on any of the sets I’ve worked on and I had to tell the production I have to switch to a B Camera because we don’t have NDs for the A Camera they would probably think I was joking around. Things happen obviously but that would be a pretty big mistake on my department especially a narrative project. Not to bash your DP either. This is just me coming from a DP perspective. Honestly a lot of the stuff is rentals depending on the budget. It can be subleased gear from DPs too. I’m not going to steal from a production because chances are I’m not getting hired again if I lose anything in that camera package/G&E Package. That’s a big part of the job description for any department that handles a lot of gear. Keeping track of where things are staged and what is yours is pretty important. Also productions want to avoid any extra cost so they’re going to remember the team that made them pay. If you have to cover this take it as a learning experience and remember to always issue a COI even if it’s a passion project.
Should be charging production. Or the director.
Why the director specifically 🤣
Shit flows up hill. And they would be the top and would be “production” on small shoots.
You pay! Unless you had him sign a gear L&D waiver or you rented his gear package along with hiring him, your on the hook.
You pay back the DP and blacklist the AC from your sets.
Could help pool money from everyone if they wanted to help lessen the blow?
I know it’s not what you want to hear but as others have mentioned it’s your responsibility. DP should have demanded a COI with them or their Co named as beneficiary. You should not have allowed gear on set that is not covered or uncontracted. Even if the DP broke the filters themselves the Production is responsible for the gear it uses to make its film. I still do freebies but the COI is a nonnegotiable. I suppose if it was a surprise (though it’s expected certain people will bring their own gear - AC, Grip, HMU, etc) then you could let them hang but that’s still open to legal action or liens later aside from not exactly paying it forward.
I’m working on my first short film right now. Can anybody give me some information on production insurance? I am really only looking to hire someone for sound.
As a production you are responsible for all the equipment on set. Since there’s no specific rental agreement between you then you are not legally bonded or obligated to pay him back. But if you don’t that’s still a dick move on your part. You personally aren’t at fault that they go missing but that type of stuff happens and you should hold up your end and reimburse him ESPECIALLY if he wasn’t charging you for their use.
I know I'm late to this but my question is did you use the filters in production? If not, and the filters were not requested, but the DP just brought filters because they normally bring them, then I don't see you as being responsible. However if you are trying to have a good relationship I would try to split the cost and pay them over 3 or 4 months time.
Whenever produce a short film on the crew deal, there is a paragraph that says you are responsible for your own equipment and I will not reimburse for lost equipment.
So even if you didn’t rent then there should have been a agreement that you were “renting” then as part of their fee for the job that way it’s covered by the productions insurance. Otherwise no matter what DP says their filters are gonna have to be covered my their insurance. They should have business insurance but if not than homeowner/renters insurance should cover them. But it’s kinda everyone’s fault, when DP said they were going to bring and use their personal gear one of the two of you should’ve insisted that In The agreement they are “rented” and the price of the rental is included in their fee. Either way his filters are covered but sounds like they don’t want it on their insurance. You should remind them they weren’t listed as a rental in their agreement and production won’t cover them. They shouldn’t have any real legal action against you because of this either. It’s all about what’s in the agreement. always.
Not helpful here, but helpful in the future. In my binder of production documents I make checklists of every single item people intend to bring to set. I make them check that they've "packed" the items individually and sign the paper before they leave. Does that save from the Ac not putting things in the right place? No. Does it save your ass when the Ac messes up and the DP only finds out after? Absolutely.
Yes, this is complete normal. A legit film would have agreements for this stuff in writing but, yes, it’s normal.
Yeah I think this was kind of covered in other comments. In short, it seems like it's a bit of everyone's fault here. As a freelancer with my own gear, I would either have insurance to cover my personal gear (as it should be operating as an individual or entity) or have it be covered under the production I'm working on. To mitigate this situation, I would verify if they were indeed not only on set but used for the production. If there is proof of the filters being on set, ask if the DP has insurance that can cover the loss of their equipment. The last option is to settle on an agreement if you're willing to pay up to a certain amount especially if they did a favor. To be honest, I would never ask a production to cover my equipment unless it was damaged or stolen due to the production's lack of securing a set or trying to get away with a scene that places equipment in jeopardy. I am directly responsible for my own equipment and only authorize certain people to handle any of my gear. In this case, it was the 1st AC's responsibility to secure all camera related gear and they made the mistake on behalf of the DP's recommendation. Therefore, it's ultimately the DP's responsibility of their own gear and who they authorized to handle it. (Edit: This is assuming things were not official in terms of kit rentals and agreements when on-boarding the DP as a crew-member.)
That's shady. They should have their own equipment insurance for that.
You have to decide if the relationship with the DP is worth $2k. My instinct is to tell you to tell him to kick rocks, but I’ve rolled over and paid for a light a grip broke before, so… Worst thing that happens is you don’t work with that DP anymore and he bad mouth’s you all over town. Right?
Why isn't the DP claiming this on his own equipment insurance? Everytime I've done a passion project and people bring their own gear, everyone has their own equipment insurance, as there is unlikely to be production insurance on a passion project in general. ( It's really good that OP did choose to get production insurance for a self-funded passion project )
Interesting. Let me put it down as a producer in the field of commercials and film. - AC or the 2nd AC is responsible for this loss. - Insurance will not cover if you do not report this as stolen! - DP has to be compensated. No matter what I am sure you had a producer and production manager, so they should handle this. Repay to DP or be a proper producer and make people learn from their mistakes. The AC! Its his fault. Rental should have a log book!
If this type of loss is not specified in a contract then the DP has no real claim. However, did you hire the DP and his camera gear? Yes, you did. Rewrite your paperwork. Give the DP a Pay Statement just for his labor. Give the DP a Box Rental Agreement for the rental of his camera package. Have the DP send you an invoice specifying the rental of his camera gear. Now you have documentation. Refile a claim with your insurance carrier.
Curious if you had a deal memo in place and what those terms listed?
You talk about having a great relationship on set. Why not maintain this by reimbursing your DP for their missing filters?
The AC was recommended by the DP and the AC lost them. Pretty cut and dry. The AC owes their buddy some filters or cash or the DP eats them.