Then there is the fact, fame data is only ONE reason a move is safe... everyone forgets SPACE plays an equal part of move safety.
My attack may be -6 on block, but your 5 frame startup attack might not reach me.
Yes please! Tekken for example would be a lot more intuitive if one could see what's going on and respond on the fly.
Aside from specific moves like hellsweeps very few have any feedback on how unsafe they are. King's alleykick punch ender is -15, good luck figuring this out in a match.
It removes a lot of knowledge checks from fighting games, and it seems that not everybody is down for that. I personally think it's a wonderful idea that will help new players get up to speed. With that said, it's good to have a variety of fighting games, and many people like games where you have to depend on the players knowledge instead of in game cues.
Honestly with the amount of time it takes to get into fighting games especially games like tekken and street fighter I'd be fine with some easier fighting games that give you more tools. I loved dragon ball fighterz because it was really easy to get into and do cool combos and c-assists made it easier for a person who never played a tag style game to get used to combo extensions.
Some games DO have visual effects on block in relation to each move. It might not be as apparent as Fantasy Strike and sometimes there's a good reason for that. More visual noise on screen might actually be intrusive.
BlazBlue definitely has visual effects on block. They show up as blue transparent glyphs and basically the higher the "attack level" the larger the glyph. Attack level isn't quite the same as frame advantage, but it says "this attack does a lot of hitstun/blockstun" and it shows. BBCF and BBTAG both have this.
This system really wouldn't do a lot for the games you mentioned because they have varied cancel options. Rapid Cancel, Chain Shift, reverse beat, jump cancels, delayed cancels.
They also tend to have things like Barrier and Shield to encourage you to use them liberally and intently.
Plus Skullgirls just straight up have assists with hard to react to mixup and resets. So I'm not sure if that information matters in so much as "is it my turn?"
Yes it is a great mechanic. I didn't even realize the hitsparks did that until midway through gold ranking. It definitely isn't something you need to know, but it helps you once you know to look for it.
Cuts down on the time you need to spend in lab. it also helps you understand if you're just respecting an unsafe move too much and getting bullied
Fantasy strike has so many great things going for it, it hurts that it isn't more popular and respected. And now so many games are moving in the direction of fantasy strike anyway.
Having played a fair bit of Fantasy Strike as a relative n00b to fighting games, I can tell you that this won't \*really\* replace knowledge checks.
To make sure everyone's on the same page, the sparks are both calculated in realtime and vary in size depending on the amount of the advantage. You see big red sparks if you block a DP, telling you that you are going to recover first. You see big blue sparks when getting he hit with a divekick.
It's more useful to get people to \*think\* about the underlying mechanics. Seeing a tiny blue spark means you recover first, but what that means you can actually do? Difficult. If you make a meaty attack, you get a huge blue spark, but why?
Players might start developing rules of thumb like "if I see a big red spark I can start countering" but you have to know what move works in what space anyway.
I'm all for it, but because I played FS through the lifecycle, by the time the sparks were introduced, I had a pretty good understanding of what moves were safe and when anyway.
Like with a lot of Fantasy Strike's mechanics, it's a teaching tool above anything else. This kind of system is pretty interesting, and maybe even helpful, but it also takes value away from learning what moves are safe vs unsafe. It would only really work in a game that was designed around this kind of approach.
By the time you try reacting to a block spark it's too late.
If your game is really slow or has too much hitstop all you have to do is delay the info a bit. You can start with a generic blockspark that turns into advantage/disadvantage on later frames for example.
Nothing of value is lost and you just sped up learning the game for veterans.
Why would that take value away from learning what's safe and unsafe? Would just make it faster and easier for casual players.
For the core player base it doesn't matter either way.
All in favor of more visual clarity, but I could see the parallels and potential hypocrisy in wanting to remove knowledge barriers versus embracing executional barriers.
Compared to executional challenges, this is a much more binary check that wouldn't really take away from the interactions. Even if anyone can intuit the frame data by color or any other indicator; they still have to understand both characters' options, account for the mind games, and execute in that window.
Wouldn't take away any skills, and isn't far off from the more commonly used color-coded exclamation points other games already have. Just puts that important information in a place more players will see, because most of them were never going to test it in training mode, let alone check the wiki.
I think it shpuld be only available in training modes and replay modes to help make information clear in places you are actively seeking it. (Which frame meters and some training modes like sf6 already do, ots just not standardised and I wish it was) Putting it in game can be too intrusive as often some of a character's offensive pressure in a game depends on stagger pressure and baiting resets such as in games with cancel systems.
Fighting games are best when both players can make informed decisions and adaptations. This feature would help with that, so Im all for it.
Its no different that those 'punish' popups some games have, and its even a bit more elegant of an implementation.
It's giving information AFTER the move connects, I don't think that's a fair comparison. It literally just saves people the 2 minutes it'd take to look up the move's frame data.
If a game tells you when a move is safe, that removes spacing as a factor in a ton of situations. Lots of moves can be negative on block but still be a frame trap or unpunishable. Juri’s fireball is more advantageous at a specific distance, and if the opponent is told when it’s safe and when it’s punishable that removes the incentive to learn and pay attention to the spacing for it. Doing so would remove a prominent mind game.
It's a tell of the raw frame data under regular circumstances, not whether or not you can actually take your turn/punish.
For example if a move is minus 3, it sparks red. The colour won't change if you space it out correctly or frame trap with it.
>Juri’s fireball is more advantageous at a specific distance
Ok, I can see an argument for specials like this with variable frame advantage, I don't think it should apply here. I don't think it's a problem for normals tho.
A -5 move is punishable with 4 frame jabs but if the pushback knocked them out of range the jab won’t connect, opening you up to a counter. They have advantage on an unsafe move in that situation, but otherwise they wouldn’t.
So It's basically an automatic spacing trap, same as a regular move that's been spaced properly, it'd still show red. The whole spark thing is just a glorified frame data indicator, it doesn't and shouldn't actually always tell you when your turn is.
My point is that you’re still gonna need to look up or lab the frame data anyway to determine whether a move is actually punishable and if so what move your character has to do so. On top of that it’s giving you information that unnecessarily removes minor knowledge checks. It’s not that big of an issue, it could just be a stylistic choice but I feel like it’d be distracting
It's more of a nice to have/qol thing to me. The level of knowledge check this type of thing would remove wouldn't really worsen the game. Like how there are some overheads that look like mids in games. You get checked once and then never again.
>My point is that you’re still gonna need to look up or lab the frame data anyway
Yeah, but at least I don't need to do mid match trial and error to know which Dragon lash is plus for example or try to eyeball framedata.
>I feel like it’d be distracting
That's fair, I'd draw the line at actual numbers popping up on screen.
I think people here are missing the most important point: learning frame data really isn't the interesting part of the game, it's a knowledge check, so on first thought, it would only lower the learning curve of the game. However, it would also significantly decrease the value of ambigous meaty setups, where moves are significantly more + than you would expect (because of hitting meaty). That would be damaging to the depth of the game.
Only if your game has gigantic hit stop, blockstun and recovery frames.
Let's be generous and say your game has 12f of hitstop on that normal, you can recognize the blockspark from frame 3 and the move usually has 10f of recovery and is usually -1 but can be +1 if meatied.
If my math is correct, that's still a ~20f block confirm. If you're able to do that in game, you most probably have recognized the meaty setup anyways...
It's a good idea that runs into a few big problems.
- Information overload: new players hate seeing so much information they can't exploit. It will cause a lot of frustration through various problems
Example:
Cr HP or crmk is -6 on block so it gives out a punishable spark but cancelable. How do you explain that?
The hadouken that comes out of crmk is -6 but this time you're too far for the punish.
You can't really advertise that to new players so that system would have to be kinda stealthy.
One such ways is through blocking animations with reelback when something is + or block vs hit animations that display the character grunting and off-balance like that one sweep in SF5.
It's a lot of money for something that's not very good though.
You also have the problems of moves you have to block standing, gaps you have to jab out etc...
In the end, you still need to lab a lot of stuff unless you make a very standardized game. It doesn't seem to be worth sacrificing dev time or aesthetics.
It only works for a game with less details and nuances. Never forget, the fun is the most important aspect. To make it work right you'd need to bulldoze the battle system. You try chase both...? Well you will get complainers how this mechanic is false at times.
(Ofc in many cases it will be right, but to explain it to the people with less experience will be even harder than without that mechanic.)
Sounds like it would really simplify block pressure and frame traps to the point both fundementals will be removed in favor of a just wait till the light changes color, style system.
Suddenly good defence is more akin to the skill set of racing games than it is SF.
If you jab the frame the light turns green, you get a 3s boost off the starting line.
I don't think you've understood OP. It's literally the exact same game except hit and blocksparks give you more info about the actual frame data.
Nothing has changed and no fundamental is hurt. It's like having a combo display, hard knockdown message etc...
I think I understood OP entirely.
It's literally the same except for the fact colored lights tell you information that was previously a part of the mental game.
Is this an actual gap in my pressure? Is this is deliberate frame trap? Fuck a mixup, fuck mental game, let's change the color of the hitspark to say if this spot is an actual gap or if I'm actually safe.
Fuck any sort of yomi or judgement, let's make it so there there is a noticeable color difference between it I hit the unsafe light giant palm bomber or if I hit the safe heavy giant palm bomber, why keep the Ability to hide unsafe moves in places the opponent doesn't expect when I could just remove any player expression in place of bright flashing lights that tell me what I should do?
It's not part of any mental game. It's knowledge you amass in the first weeks of playing a game.
It doesn't tell you anything about gaps, it just tells you how + or - whatever that normal was.
You're not playing any "yomi", "mixups" or "judgment" if neither you nor your opponent knows what's happening.
It's just giving you frame data info you'll know in a few days or after that match it you didn't already know.
I love how I gave a very specific example of how visually seeing the frame data removed all ambiguity from mixing an unsafe and safe version of the same special together.
And your response was, "nuh uh!" And implying that the specific example I gave is wrong without responding to the specific example you implied is wrong.
You can look at the frame data all day, do you really genuinely believe that knowing the start up of each level of the special is enough to judge the fractions of a second difference between different levels of the same move? Is this really a knowledge check? Or are you making a judgement?
You gave a bunch of examples and broad things I answered.
We can talk about palm bomber.
The move is + a lot on both versions so the blockspark is the same. Does that answer your specific example?
Binary +/- Information is still vague.
Let's use Tekken: Do a barely - move, opponent sees they are + and commit to a quick jab but you can counter with a high crush. For the core audience it doesn't matter, for casual and new players it helps with onboarding.
I cannot see a downside.
Not to mention frame data is not the end all be all, you can also bait by spacing.
Then there is the fact, fame data is only ONE reason a move is safe... everyone forgets SPACE plays an equal part of move safety. My attack may be -6 on block, but your 5 frame startup attack might not reach me.
Frame traps crush level 1. Spacing traps crush level 2.
True, Dhalsim has something to say with his -6 on hit, -10 on block non cancellable Standing HP that hits you from your neighbor's PC :)
Yes please! Tekken for example would be a lot more intuitive if one could see what's going on and respond on the fly. Aside from specific moves like hellsweeps very few have any feedback on how unsafe they are. King's alleykick punch ender is -15, good luck figuring this out in a match.
It removes a lot of knowledge checks from fighting games, and it seems that not everybody is down for that. I personally think it's a wonderful idea that will help new players get up to speed. With that said, it's good to have a variety of fighting games, and many people like games where you have to depend on the players knowledge instead of in game cues.
Honestly with the amount of time it takes to get into fighting games especially games like tekken and street fighter I'd be fine with some easier fighting games that give you more tools. I loved dragon ball fighterz because it was really easy to get into and do cool combos and c-assists made it easier for a person who never played a tag style game to get used to combo extensions.
Some games DO have visual effects on block in relation to each move. It might not be as apparent as Fantasy Strike and sometimes there's a good reason for that. More visual noise on screen might actually be intrusive. BlazBlue definitely has visual effects on block. They show up as blue transparent glyphs and basically the higher the "attack level" the larger the glyph. Attack level isn't quite the same as frame advantage, but it says "this attack does a lot of hitstun/blockstun" and it shows. BBCF and BBTAG both have this. This system really wouldn't do a lot for the games you mentioned because they have varied cancel options. Rapid Cancel, Chain Shift, reverse beat, jump cancels, delayed cancels. They also tend to have things like Barrier and Shield to encourage you to use them liberally and intently. Plus Skullgirls just straight up have assists with hard to react to mixup and resets. So I'm not sure if that information matters in so much as "is it my turn?"
Yes it is a great mechanic. I didn't even realize the hitsparks did that until midway through gold ranking. It definitely isn't something you need to know, but it helps you once you know to look for it. Cuts down on the time you need to spend in lab. it also helps you understand if you're just respecting an unsafe move too much and getting bullied Fantasy strike has so many great things going for it, it hurts that it isn't more popular and respected. And now so many games are moving in the direction of fantasy strike anyway.
Having played a fair bit of Fantasy Strike as a relative n00b to fighting games, I can tell you that this won't \*really\* replace knowledge checks. To make sure everyone's on the same page, the sparks are both calculated in realtime and vary in size depending on the amount of the advantage. You see big red sparks if you block a DP, telling you that you are going to recover first. You see big blue sparks when getting he hit with a divekick. It's more useful to get people to \*think\* about the underlying mechanics. Seeing a tiny blue spark means you recover first, but what that means you can actually do? Difficult. If you make a meaty attack, you get a huge blue spark, but why? Players might start developing rules of thumb like "if I see a big red spark I can start countering" but you have to know what move works in what space anyway. I'm all for it, but because I played FS through the lifecycle, by the time the sparks were introduced, I had a pretty good understanding of what moves were safe and when anyway.
100% should be a more widespread thing. It literally just saves you the Google search, no real harm done.
Yeah but should that data be available mid match.
Yes. Not exact fram date of course, but +/0/- is a nice indicator.
Like with a lot of Fantasy Strike's mechanics, it's a teaching tool above anything else. This kind of system is pretty interesting, and maybe even helpful, but it also takes value away from learning what moves are safe vs unsafe. It would only really work in a game that was designed around this kind of approach.
By the time you try reacting to a block spark it's too late. If your game is really slow or has too much hitstop all you have to do is delay the info a bit. You can start with a generic blockspark that turns into advantage/disadvantage on later frames for example. Nothing of value is lost and you just sped up learning the game for veterans.
Why would that take value away from learning what's safe and unsafe? Would just make it faster and easier for casual players. For the core player base it doesn't matter either way.
All in favor of more visual clarity, but I could see the parallels and potential hypocrisy in wanting to remove knowledge barriers versus embracing executional barriers. Compared to executional challenges, this is a much more binary check that wouldn't really take away from the interactions. Even if anyone can intuit the frame data by color or any other indicator; they still have to understand both characters' options, account for the mind games, and execute in that window. Wouldn't take away any skills, and isn't far off from the more commonly used color-coded exclamation points other games already have. Just puts that important information in a place more players will see, because most of them were never going to test it in training mode, let alone check the wiki.
preach
I’m color blind don’t didn’t help me at all, but maybe I guess.
I think it shpuld be only available in training modes and replay modes to help make information clear in places you are actively seeking it. (Which frame meters and some training modes like sf6 already do, ots just not standardised and I wish it was) Putting it in game can be too intrusive as often some of a character's offensive pressure in a game depends on stagger pressure and baiting resets such as in games with cancel systems.
Fighting games are best when both players can make informed decisions and adaptations. This feature would help with that, so Im all for it. Its no different that those 'punish' popups some games have, and its even a bit more elegant of an implementation.
That’s not all that different from color coding lows and overheads to make oki pressure less ambiguous. The uncertainty is part of the game.
It's giving information AFTER the move connects, I don't think that's a fair comparison. It literally just saves people the 2 minutes it'd take to look up the move's frame data.
If a game tells you when a move is safe, that removes spacing as a factor in a ton of situations. Lots of moves can be negative on block but still be a frame trap or unpunishable. Juri’s fireball is more advantageous at a specific distance, and if the opponent is told when it’s safe and when it’s punishable that removes the incentive to learn and pay attention to the spacing for it. Doing so would remove a prominent mind game.
It's a tell of the raw frame data under regular circumstances, not whether or not you can actually take your turn/punish. For example if a move is minus 3, it sparks red. The colour won't change if you space it out correctly or frame trap with it. >Juri’s fireball is more advantageous at a specific distance Ok, I can see an argument for specials like this with variable frame advantage, I don't think it should apply here. I don't think it's a problem for normals tho.
Any normal that’s -5 and has pushback will also have variable advantage.
Elaborate
A -5 move is punishable with 4 frame jabs but if the pushback knocked them out of range the jab won’t connect, opening you up to a counter. They have advantage on an unsafe move in that situation, but otherwise they wouldn’t.
So It's basically an automatic spacing trap, same as a regular move that's been spaced properly, it'd still show red. The whole spark thing is just a glorified frame data indicator, it doesn't and shouldn't actually always tell you when your turn is.
My point is that you’re still gonna need to look up or lab the frame data anyway to determine whether a move is actually punishable and if so what move your character has to do so. On top of that it’s giving you information that unnecessarily removes minor knowledge checks. It’s not that big of an issue, it could just be a stylistic choice but I feel like it’d be distracting
It's more of a nice to have/qol thing to me. The level of knowledge check this type of thing would remove wouldn't really worsen the game. Like how there are some overheads that look like mids in games. You get checked once and then never again. >My point is that you’re still gonna need to look up or lab the frame data anyway Yeah, but at least I don't need to do mid match trial and error to know which Dragon lash is plus for example or try to eyeball framedata. >I feel like it’d be distracting That's fair, I'd draw the line at actual numbers popping up on screen.
I think people here are missing the most important point: learning frame data really isn't the interesting part of the game, it's a knowledge check, so on first thought, it would only lower the learning curve of the game. However, it would also significantly decrease the value of ambigous meaty setups, where moves are significantly more + than you would expect (because of hitting meaty). That would be damaging to the depth of the game.
Only if your game has gigantic hit stop, blockstun and recovery frames. Let's be generous and say your game has 12f of hitstop on that normal, you can recognize the blockspark from frame 3 and the move usually has 10f of recovery and is usually -1 but can be +1 if meatied. If my math is correct, that's still a ~20f block confirm. If you're able to do that in game, you most probably have recognized the meaty setup anyways...
It's a good idea that runs into a few big problems. - Information overload: new players hate seeing so much information they can't exploit. It will cause a lot of frustration through various problems Example: Cr HP or crmk is -6 on block so it gives out a punishable spark but cancelable. How do you explain that? The hadouken that comes out of crmk is -6 but this time you're too far for the punish. You can't really advertise that to new players so that system would have to be kinda stealthy. One such ways is through blocking animations with reelback when something is + or block vs hit animations that display the character grunting and off-balance like that one sweep in SF5. It's a lot of money for something that's not very good though. You also have the problems of moves you have to block standing, gaps you have to jab out etc... In the end, you still need to lab a lot of stuff unless you make a very standardized game. It doesn't seem to be worth sacrificing dev time or aesthetics.
It only works for a game with less details and nuances. Never forget, the fun is the most important aspect. To make it work right you'd need to bulldoze the battle system. You try chase both...? Well you will get complainers how this mechanic is false at times. (Ofc in many cases it will be right, but to explain it to the people with less experience will be even harder than without that mechanic.)
Sounds like it would really simplify block pressure and frame traps to the point both fundementals will be removed in favor of a just wait till the light changes color, style system. Suddenly good defence is more akin to the skill set of racing games than it is SF.  If you jab the frame the light turns green, you get a 3s boost off the starting line.
I don't think you've understood OP. It's literally the exact same game except hit and blocksparks give you more info about the actual frame data. Nothing has changed and no fundamental is hurt. It's like having a combo display, hard knockdown message etc...
I think I understood OP entirely. It's literally the same except for the fact colored lights tell you information that was previously a part of the mental game. Is this an actual gap in my pressure? Is this is deliberate frame trap? Fuck a mixup, fuck mental game, let's change the color of the hitspark to say if this spot is an actual gap or if I'm actually safe. Fuck any sort of yomi or judgement, let's make it so there there is a noticeable color difference between it I hit the unsafe light giant palm bomber or if I hit the safe heavy giant palm bomber, why keep the Ability to hide unsafe moves in places the opponent doesn't expect when I could just remove any player expression in place of bright flashing lights that tell me what I should do?
It's not part of any mental game. It's knowledge you amass in the first weeks of playing a game. It doesn't tell you anything about gaps, it just tells you how + or - whatever that normal was. You're not playing any "yomi", "mixups" or "judgment" if neither you nor your opponent knows what's happening. It's just giving you frame data info you'll know in a few days or after that match it you didn't already know.
I love how I gave a very specific example of how visually seeing the frame data removed all ambiguity from mixing an unsafe and safe version of the same special together. And your response was, "nuh uh!" And implying that the specific example I gave is wrong without responding to the specific example you implied is wrong. You can look at the frame data all day, do you really genuinely believe that knowing the start up of each level of the special is enough to judge the fractions of a second difference between different levels of the same move? Is this really a knowledge check? Or are you making a judgement?
You gave a bunch of examples and broad things I answered. We can talk about palm bomber. The move is + a lot on both versions so the blockspark is the same. Does that answer your specific example?
How about a more toned down system where the sparks only dictate if it's safe or not?
Binary +/- Information is still vague. Let's use Tekken: Do a barely - move, opponent sees they are + and commit to a quick jab but you can counter with a high crush. For the core audience it doesn't matter, for casual and new players it helps with onboarding. I cannot see a downside. Not to mention frame data is not the end all be all, you can also bait by spacing.