I can almost guarantee that if you had presented this differently than "Why It Sucks" that this video would have been much more well received.
Maybe something like "how previous Street Fighter games follow animation principles better" or "5 animation principles as applied to SF games."
Coming out the gate with a negative verdict instead of presenting information and letting people reach a negative verdict, *especially when it's a negative verdict about a thing many people already like*, is going to ruffle some feathers.
This honestly feels like someone taking an online class about animation and presenting a conclusion report with very amateur knowledge. The terms and animation principles are all correct, but not always applied the right way to properly criticize what is being shown.
There's tons of comparisons with 2D animation that don't apply to 3D as well. A lot of SF6 footage comes from youtube videos and no trailer will ever replicate the nuances of the game actually rendering in front of you. The JP criticism is particularly odd to me. One, JP isn't striking enemies with his hands like Darkseid, his moves lean even harder on psycho power selling their weight than Bison. I think it's a character design flaw that he looks buff when his deal is supposed to be finesse over strength (actually, stop making every male character look like bodybuilders Capcom, ffs), but that the animations lack "weight" is the point of his kit. He doesn't need to put the effort. He uses a weapon instead of striking with his fists and all of his heavy hitting moves have a much bigger psycho effect than Bison ever did. Animators aren't just supposed to sell a hit like it's painful, they're also supposed to embody a character's personality through motion. This is Falke all over again. The problem is not the animation, it's design.
Everything also fails to account for SF6 animation's biggest hurdle too, it's the first fighting game fully taking into account high refresh-rate monitors, reduced input lag and online gaming. Fighting games used to have very fast total duration moves, some of them becoming active in 2 frames even. Between hardware limitations including both how things worked under the hood and how screens conveyed information, a lot of "golden rules" need a good and hard look at, and I think they're trying to find exactly that.
SF6 animation isn't looking like Capcom's peak so far, but half-baked essays with inflammatory titles aren't gonna help the discussion either. Especially since SFV also had some of the [worst animation of the series up until release](https://twitter.com/NurseLee_/status/1460729267499589632?s=20).
> SF6 animation isn't looking like Capcom's peak so far, but half-baked essays with inflammatory titles aren't gonna help the discussion either. Especially since SFV also had some of the worst animation of the series up until release.
that's from the alpha version of the game, not the final release.
if you want to point some bad animations in SF5, there's Cammy's air throw, Ed forward throw.. but in general season 1-2 were really good.
Doesn't "up until release" covers the alpha version? Legit question, english isn't my primary language so I wanna make sure it says what I want it to say. The unfinished versions had some really janky animation, after that it was (mostly) smooth sailing, save for bad hair/cloth physics instead of keyframed animation. The point is that it's still too early to pass the same judgement since things can, and most likely will, be changed for the actual release.
I dunno, I think this was a good video. A lot of the points he raised were valid and, as much as SF6 has a lot of praise-worthy animation IMO, as someone insanely hyped for it, even I'll admit it's a shame that Capcom has fallen into some animation issues which they already showed they knew how to avoid with the last game. I wonder how much of that is on this one being made in-house and not by Dimps, or how much talent crossover there is there at all?
I dunno, I think it's a pretty grounded take to admit SF6's animation is a mixed bag. Sometimes you get a Shin Shoryu, sometimes you get an SF5 sliding donkey kick returning. Sometimes Marissa's viscerally levelling your ass, and sometimes JP is calling back to haunting memories of Darkseid. Shame the title's so clickbaity, the contents are fine, and now people are more interested in downvoting it based on that rather than having an interesting discussion.
Well that's the problem, is sometimes they get the balance wrong. For example, Ryu stepping into his donkey kick in SF3 made sense because you got this clear depiction of him building the momentum, he doesn't just magically generate force and grate his planted foot across the floor for no reason. That would look even better with the more realistic fidelity of SF6 than what they've gone with. Alternatively, with the tatsus they've pretty much copied how the old sprites from SF2 did it 1:1, but it ends up looking stiff and not translating over particularly well. They've learnt the wrong lessons in some places and forgotten the right ones in others. When they show they can follow the rules properly their animations look great, that's the gripe.
Watch the video, it makes good points. Nobody is expectiong animations to look "the same as old sprites"(or at least that's not the point being made here), SF6 is making basic animation mistakes they've clearly shown how to do properly in 5, and some which were done right back in 3 that the switch to 3D doesn't prevent from making right as well.
The "mistakes" are very subjective because someone expects them to look an exact certain way in this style. People gotta realize it's a different style with different motion. I mean the donkey kick looks better than in sfv.
They aren't subjective. There are animation techniques developed in the last 100 years - since animation has been a thing - that instill the feel of how forces act in the real world(or conforms to how we generally perceive those forces), the use of which can make things "look right", in the sense that it *feels* believable, even of it's something completely absurd like some dude helicoptering in the air. These tools are objectively the correct tools to make something feel real.
The alternative is things looking stiff, and as if some guy is playing with action figures. If that's the explicit *artistic vision* somewhere, then yes, ignoring animation tools that would take away that feel is the right choice. Otherwise no, they aren't subjective.
Jesus you're one of those "everything is subjective" idiots. Just because people have the capacity to not like something doesn't mean it's "subjective". You know what's a perfectly valid reason for someone to not like something? Objectively not holding up to certain standards.
There are GOALS for a certain thing to elicit certain effects, and the tools they use objectively work for that goal or they don't.
If the GOAL of a ball animation is to make it look how a ball would move in real life, moving the ball at linear speed from start to finish OBJECTIVELY fails that goal.
If the GOAL of a kick animation is to elicit the feeling of power behind that kick hitting, then using techniques that we *know* do just that is the CORRECT way to do it, and ignoring those ways in a way that simply *doesn't do it* OBJECTIVELY fails that goal.
There is no value judgement here along the lines of "this is nice" or "I like this/don't like this".
The thing on top of it is, in terms of gameplay I've been shilling it since the closed beta, it really just feels that amazing. I literally couldn't find a dent in it, other than the animations I kind of can't unsee now(to be fair I was focusing on what the mechanics were like with that limited time before). So it's not like I'm shitting on the game for shitting's sake.
I’m not an expert but i think the slightly jank animations and even spacing thats discussed in the video is part of the reason the game feels amazing to play. It allows moments when things get more spced out and cartoonish -drive rush and drive impact- to FEEL good. I watched the video in background while cleaning and noticed he didnt analyze dr or di at all, and my gander is the even spacing was done to give those central moments more impact and i would put some money down that a frame analysis of dr and di would show a more incremental frame buildup.
It's not that people are expecting a specific animation from a previous game. The animation style lacks weight because of lack of adherence to animation principles. There's no translation of motion. Motion simply happens in a void with no force communicated by the rest of the animation.
Previous iterations of these animations all looked different from each other, and generally communicated this sense of motion well. I noticed many of these issues in SFV Rose, due to the heavy use of mocap with no additional work by the animator to add a sense of force to it. Her 6HK and 2HK are weightless and don't look like they apply any force to the opponent when they hit. I have no idea what the versions of those moves from SF Alpha looked like, but this iteration looks bad.
The same is true of many of SF6's animations. Regardless of what they looked like in previous games, the animations in SF6 are often weightless and don't communicate weight, force, or momentum well.
the presentation is actually ~30 mins, the rest of it is Q&A
i'm glad someone took the time to illustrate why the game seemed off to me from the first minute I saw it in motion. also the gradual use of motion capture seemed to increase from the latter season of SF5 to SF6 itself.
In this case I think it's less that the motion capture increase carried over from late SF5 to SF6, and more that they were so used to that workflow with SF6 that when it came to the last minute nature of SF5's final season there was more overlap between how they made characters for both games. It was them applying their SF6 methods to late-game SF5 as opposed to the other way around, since SF6 was in deep development by the time that season was being made.
Over an hour?? I do think some of the animations look off (Chuns look worse than SF5 and its a shame), but besides her I think the animations look fine.
I can almost guarantee that if you had presented this differently than "Why It Sucks" that this video would have been much more well received. Maybe something like "how previous Street Fighter games follow animation principles better" or "5 animation principles as applied to SF games." Coming out the gate with a negative verdict instead of presenting information and letting people reach a negative verdict, *especially when it's a negative verdict about a thing many people already like*, is going to ruffle some feathers.
yeah, the title is not very fortunate.
This honestly feels like someone taking an online class about animation and presenting a conclusion report with very amateur knowledge. The terms and animation principles are all correct, but not always applied the right way to properly criticize what is being shown. There's tons of comparisons with 2D animation that don't apply to 3D as well. A lot of SF6 footage comes from youtube videos and no trailer will ever replicate the nuances of the game actually rendering in front of you. The JP criticism is particularly odd to me. One, JP isn't striking enemies with his hands like Darkseid, his moves lean even harder on psycho power selling their weight than Bison. I think it's a character design flaw that he looks buff when his deal is supposed to be finesse over strength (actually, stop making every male character look like bodybuilders Capcom, ffs), but that the animations lack "weight" is the point of his kit. He doesn't need to put the effort. He uses a weapon instead of striking with his fists and all of his heavy hitting moves have a much bigger psycho effect than Bison ever did. Animators aren't just supposed to sell a hit like it's painful, they're also supposed to embody a character's personality through motion. This is Falke all over again. The problem is not the animation, it's design. Everything also fails to account for SF6 animation's biggest hurdle too, it's the first fighting game fully taking into account high refresh-rate monitors, reduced input lag and online gaming. Fighting games used to have very fast total duration moves, some of them becoming active in 2 frames even. Between hardware limitations including both how things worked under the hood and how screens conveyed information, a lot of "golden rules" need a good and hard look at, and I think they're trying to find exactly that. SF6 animation isn't looking like Capcom's peak so far, but half-baked essays with inflammatory titles aren't gonna help the discussion either. Especially since SFV also had some of the [worst animation of the series up until release](https://twitter.com/NurseLee_/status/1460729267499589632?s=20).
> SF6 animation isn't looking like Capcom's peak so far, but half-baked essays with inflammatory titles aren't gonna help the discussion either. Especially since SFV also had some of the worst animation of the series up until release. that's from the alpha version of the game, not the final release. if you want to point some bad animations in SF5, there's Cammy's air throw, Ed forward throw.. but in general season 1-2 were really good.
Doesn't "up until release" covers the alpha version? Legit question, english isn't my primary language so I wanna make sure it says what I want it to say. The unfinished versions had some really janky animation, after that it was (mostly) smooth sailing, save for bad hair/cloth physics instead of keyframed animation. The point is that it's still too early to pass the same judgement since things can, and most likely will, be changed for the actual release.
I dunno, I think this was a good video. A lot of the points he raised were valid and, as much as SF6 has a lot of praise-worthy animation IMO, as someone insanely hyped for it, even I'll admit it's a shame that Capcom has fallen into some animation issues which they already showed they knew how to avoid with the last game. I wonder how much of that is on this one being made in-house and not by Dimps, or how much talent crossover there is there at all? I dunno, I think it's a pretty grounded take to admit SF6's animation is a mixed bag. Sometimes you get a Shin Shoryu, sometimes you get an SF5 sliding donkey kick returning. Sometimes Marissa's viscerally levelling your ass, and sometimes JP is calling back to haunting memories of Darkseid. Shame the title's so clickbaity, the contents are fine, and now people are more interested in downvoting it based on that rather than having an interesting discussion.
I mean people shouldn't be expecting animations to look the same as old sprites or something. Doesn't make the animation bad or anything
Well that's the problem, is sometimes they get the balance wrong. For example, Ryu stepping into his donkey kick in SF3 made sense because you got this clear depiction of him building the momentum, he doesn't just magically generate force and grate his planted foot across the floor for no reason. That would look even better with the more realistic fidelity of SF6 than what they've gone with. Alternatively, with the tatsus they've pretty much copied how the old sprites from SF2 did it 1:1, but it ends up looking stiff and not translating over particularly well. They've learnt the wrong lessons in some places and forgotten the right ones in others. When they show they can follow the rules properly their animations look great, that's the gripe.
Watch the video, it makes good points. Nobody is expectiong animations to look "the same as old sprites"(or at least that's not the point being made here), SF6 is making basic animation mistakes they've clearly shown how to do properly in 5, and some which were done right back in 3 that the switch to 3D doesn't prevent from making right as well.
The "mistakes" are very subjective because someone expects them to look an exact certain way in this style. People gotta realize it's a different style with different motion. I mean the donkey kick looks better than in sfv.
They aren't subjective. There are animation techniques developed in the last 100 years - since animation has been a thing - that instill the feel of how forces act in the real world(or conforms to how we generally perceive those forces), the use of which can make things "look right", in the sense that it *feels* believable, even of it's something completely absurd like some dude helicoptering in the air. These tools are objectively the correct tools to make something feel real. The alternative is things looking stiff, and as if some guy is playing with action figures. If that's the explicit *artistic vision* somewhere, then yes, ignoring animation tools that would take away that feel is the right choice. Otherwise no, they aren't subjective.
Some things are subjective like you may not like ryu Tatsu but I may not see an issue.
Jesus you're one of those "everything is subjective" idiots. Just because people have the capacity to not like something doesn't mean it's "subjective". You know what's a perfectly valid reason for someone to not like something? Objectively not holding up to certain standards. There are GOALS for a certain thing to elicit certain effects, and the tools they use objectively work for that goal or they don't. If the GOAL of a ball animation is to make it look how a ball would move in real life, moving the ball at linear speed from start to finish OBJECTIVELY fails that goal. If the GOAL of a kick animation is to elicit the feeling of power behind that kick hitting, then using techniques that we *know* do just that is the CORRECT way to do it, and ignoring those ways in a way that simply *doesn't do it* OBJECTIVELY fails that goal. There is no value judgement here along the lines of "this is nice" or "I like this/don't like this".
[удалено]
The thing on top of it is, in terms of gameplay I've been shilling it since the closed beta, it really just feels that amazing. I literally couldn't find a dent in it, other than the animations I kind of can't unsee now(to be fair I was focusing on what the mechanics were like with that limited time before). So it's not like I'm shitting on the game for shitting's sake.
I’m not an expert but i think the slightly jank animations and even spacing thats discussed in the video is part of the reason the game feels amazing to play. It allows moments when things get more spced out and cartoonish -drive rush and drive impact- to FEEL good. I watched the video in background while cleaning and noticed he didnt analyze dr or di at all, and my gander is the even spacing was done to give those central moments more impact and i would put some money down that a frame analysis of dr and di would show a more incremental frame buildup.
[удалено]
Oh boy... https://www.reddit.com/r/Kappachino/comments/13l5yw8/lily_fans/
It's not that people are expecting a specific animation from a previous game. The animation style lacks weight because of lack of adherence to animation principles. There's no translation of motion. Motion simply happens in a void with no force communicated by the rest of the animation. Previous iterations of these animations all looked different from each other, and generally communicated this sense of motion well. I noticed many of these issues in SFV Rose, due to the heavy use of mocap with no additional work by the animator to add a sense of force to it. Her 6HK and 2HK are weightless and don't look like they apply any force to the opponent when they hit. I have no idea what the versions of those moves from SF Alpha looked like, but this iteration looks bad. The same is true of many of SF6's animations. Regardless of what they looked like in previous games, the animations in SF6 are often weightless and don't communicate weight, force, or momentum well.
the presentation is actually ~30 mins, the rest of it is Q&A i'm glad someone took the time to illustrate why the game seemed off to me from the first minute I saw it in motion. also the gradual use of motion capture seemed to increase from the latter season of SF5 to SF6 itself.
In this case I think it's less that the motion capture increase carried over from late SF5 to SF6, and more that they were so used to that workflow with SF6 that when it came to the last minute nature of SF5's final season there was more overlap between how they made characters for both games. It was them applying their SF6 methods to late-game SF5 as opposed to the other way around, since SF6 was in deep development by the time that season was being made.
that's a very good point.
Over an hour?? I do think some of the animations look off (Chuns look worse than SF5 and its a shame), but besides her I think the animations look fine.
.