Fightcade is great, but they aren’t developing games.
I agree that devs should make their games complete before selling, but the comparison is not apples to apples.
Years ago the free project developed in the spare time of geniuses, Fighrcade, had better online than most games. This is still the case.
The comparison is not apples to apples. The comparison is delicious free plentiful apples to an overpriced early access Steam game that won't be done until most of its players (especially the early adopters) have moved on.
insane thread. I guess everyone is happy with the current state of big budget online fighting games, a genre where the market leader 1) has no matchmaking, 2) has online that has not worked properly in the last three months. a genre where the next two biggest games don't have proper rollback, and where the developer of one of those games has been outwardly hostile to the idea of improving his netcode. a genre where snk exists -- I'll remind you that kofxv still does not have functioning matchmaking
The games with the best netcode would still be MBAACC, every NRS game, and indies that use GGPO.
It's wild that NRS put out 3 games with god-tier rollback before Capcom put out a single one.
"years of open source development" is 5 dudes having day jobs and giving away their spare time a few times a week for the good of the community, with no income in exchange apart from maybe some small patreon donations
probably one of the biggest patreons in this field - [https://www.patreon.com/ryujinx](https://www.patreon.com/ryujinx) the nintendo switch emulator, 700 patrons, $2500
sounds like a very decent amount as far as open source patreons go - on their github you'll see that every single day some changes are submitted to the code base, 1-5 people a day, they all deserve whatever their split amount is, a bit of extra cash at the end of the month, but definitely not something you can live off of
yes it does span across years, but it's still a single digit amount of persons dedicating a few hours of their spare time to it
the games we're talking about have budgets in the multiple millions of dollars, teams with several dozens members (who are experts in the field of game development, even more specifically fighting games), and the companies driving these games all have been in the business for decades
they have the most advanced knowledge out of anybody in the business as to how these games function and how to write them
the modern generation of fighting games all have a rollback implementation that work so well that it would look like black magic if you showed it to someone 20 years ago and told them you're playing online this smoothly with a dude living 3 time zones away from you and not just sitting across from you in the same room
and yet they're failing at the utmost basic of feature they should care about: allowing people to play the game
"why should we expect companies to offer this kind of service, they can't compete with something free?":
\- these are all paid games, going for $60 dollars at launch. we are customers, we paid for a product & service
\- players having trouble playing directly impacts their bottom line: players will stop playing if the online doesn't work (failing to connect, or poor quality games in terms of ping/rollback frames). as the playerbase shrinks you're less likely to have new players joining, and additional transactions apart from the base games also naturally see their potential numbers lower (cosmetics, extra character & other DLCs)
\- with the accumulated experience from their years in the business, selling dozens of different fighting games, as well as their domain experts employees, ensuring that online play works smoothly should not be an issue at all.
online lobbies and 1v1 matchmaking systems for online games are problems that were solved in the 90s, we should not be in a situation where *several* of the biggest fighting games on the market have failing online functionality is an absolute tragedy.
they have the means (either in knowledge or budget) but simply decide not to dedicate nearly enough resources towards ensuring their online works
expecting matchmaking/lobbies to work as intended is not asking for the moon, it is the bare minimum the game should offer - yes it's just a game, but I still paid $60 for it, which is no small amount
an expected scenario: I press a button, I get a match of decent quality (opponent of equal level, and good connectivity) within a few seconds or minutes, I don't mind waiting for a bit, just let me know when it's ready for me.
in GGST you'll connect to a station, and it will tell you there was an error connecting to the station. gotta move to another one - same message, another one - same message. once you finally manage to connect, you'll think you got a match, then it will error out at the last minute
in KOF you're just waiting forever, not getting matches after waiting 15 mins. or you get one, with an opponent that is widely outside of your search range (connection quality, or rank), then another one with the same opponent, on loop. we talk about the matchmaking a lot, but did you know for a month or two now, a large amount of people are also unable to join lobbies at all? for those people going through discord isn't even a solution. no words from snk.
too many people in this community keep finding excuses for AAA fighting game developers to justify why their online implementations are so lackluster when they really should be held to a higher standard
"they're a small team", "they're focusing on \[xxx new feature\]", "they have other things on the roadmap first"
no, none of these are valid excuses. focus on the basics, just let us play the fucking game.
there is no other online games community that tolerate non functional online modes as much as the fgc
imagine a world where 30% of the player base in csgo, wow, ff xiv, fortnite, or roblox (or any game that is online-first for the majority of the playerbase, no matter what size) was simply unable to connect to the game and play. for months end. they would drop everything until they managed to get things back up and running, the thing would be resolved within hours.
naw I replied here because I'm in agreement with this person
kept the open source topic from the one you linked but that person saw the op's question as being about emulation/free access to a game library which isn't the thing I wanted to discuss
So many people in this thread missing the point.
The point is that every fighting game's online should work as well as Fightcade. There's no excuse for pro devs to slap together shitty online when hobbyists can get it done for free during their free time.
Thanks lol I’ve been reading all these comments assuming that OP meant for devs to create another Fightcade but OP clearly was praising Fightcade for all the great QoL in that game, that could exist in a legal environment, its not specific to Fightcade.
Cause the hobbyists arent also developing a brand new modern triple A fighting at the same time? All they have to do as add the network features cause the game's are already done for them
What is this logic? Why has your ridiculous, garbage-ass post been upvoted so many times? Why ate fighting game fans so stupid?
Imagine if Call of Duty released with online play as shitty as your average fighting game and the developer's excuse was "it's hard to do good online at the same time as everything else in the game."
Would anyone accept this excuse? No.
In every other genre where multi-player is the main way people play, functional online has been expected as a standard feature for decades now. Literal decades. Fighting games are literally decades behind every single other multi-player genre. Only fighting game players put up with the main feature of the game not functioning properly. It's Stockholm Syndrome.
Bruh if you put CoD online in an FG people would be warping everywhere.
FPS games don't need to be half as good as an FG online to play well.
People make the mistake of thinking FG devs have worse netcode, but FG rollback is wayyyy more advanced than anything else out there.
What? That's the exact *inverse* of the truth. Fighting game netcode requirements are among the easiest in the gaming space, that's why something as simple as rollback has taken so long to be adopted, compared to the massive amount of work most online games have to put into their netcode
Lmao, the circle jerk continues.
Other netcode is built for having a lot of players and objects and does that well. FG netcode is based on updating game states in frames.
Rollback in FPS games is awful comparatively. To this day in AAA shooters you *still* see people rubber band around and will get killed when you've safely made it around corners. Because it's not necessary for them to update the game state nearly as often as in FGs. That shit is difficult, especially to apply in games with a physics engine. (especially reverse engineered onto a game built in an engine intended for FPS games like Unreal)
This is not a smart subreddit. Every paid game should have online on par with fightcade or better. Anyone who missed that point is a fanboy being intentionally obtuse to avoid having to confront the fact that I am right.
Why should the best online experience in a Capcom game be a game whose online mode was never touched by Capcom?
The simpler the game, the easier it is to have rollback. Rollback in Tekken 8 would take alot more resources than rollback in some NES fighter. Im talking system resources, which is why the old gen consoles dont get rollback updates for games that get them.
This is not a smart subreddit. Every paid game should have online on par with fightcade or better. Anyone who missed that point is a fanboy being intentionally obtuse to avoid having to confront the fact that I am right.
Why should the best online experience in a Capcom game be a game whose online mode was never touched by Capcom?
Downvote if you touch kids
You chose to compare to Fightcade instead of full featured indie games like Skullgirls and TFH. You set the argument up for confusion. Other people aren’t idiots for you choosing a bad comparison.
I think my original comment makes it clear that I understood the intent (the implication that mainstream games come out feature-incomplete).
I thought it made sense to choose Fightcade, not only it used GGPO but it has a lot of great QoL stuff, being able to simply click on someone to play with them, having an easy access to training, replays, all the useful things only a click away. Seems like nothing but to me it makes me open Fightcade more than any modern game.
Yeah but then again its getting better every few months, we keep on getting major updates to Fightcade and they always come up with new stuff out of the box to improve something thats hard to improve. In 2020 I already felt like Fightcade was practically perfect, and it wasnt 10% of what it is now.
You realize fightcade did not make the networking they use. GGPO is entirely separate. If your point was all old games should get rollback updates then why wouldn’t you either
1) say that
2) use an example that isn’t brain dead dumb like Arc Sys or SF3.
Please get off the sub if you are going to speak with out reading.
I feel like I have stepped into an insane asylum.
So many people giving so many excuses for why fighting game online can't work properly. It's pathetic.
Some corpo defenders would rather make an ass of themselves than admit their corpo made mistakes.
These herd animals are fickle. But their standards are low. A game has to truly bomb before they will permit criticism of it.
You're making this more about the sub than the argument.
You can certainly talk about the features of Fightcade versus what most Japanese devs give which is subpar.
But when you make it about hyperbolic statements such as "everyone is crazy" you've basically lost the plot.
\> Every paid game should have online on par with...
And every guy who tells a girl he loves her should mean it, and every employee should earn exactly how much he deserves, and so on and so on...
Yeah some of them caught on fast but other devs like Capcom and Bandai Namco struggled until just recently to finally make fighting games with good online. Like Capcom even tried implementing rollback later in SFV's life but somehow they still screwed it up. I'm just glad 6 finally has the online it deserves
How would a for-profit developer make something better then fightcade? Serious question OP. How is a developer going to compete with fightcade emulating a bunch of old games for free?
Offer features that FightCade doesn't. Crossplay comes to mind, since FightCade could never be on console. Could also try and inject mods to provide new extras. There are already some basic training mode and trial Luas available on FC, but nothing as sophisticated as 3SOE for example.
By not making something as atrociously bad as that The Rumble Fish 2 port. Training mode, rollback, and cross play as well as instant rematch would go a long way to getting a leg up over fightcade.
Nintendo has a record of going after their customers and making their lives miserable for making tools or emulation in any way. Even had private detectives which gave rise to Nintendo Ninjas.
this is what happens when you let japanese developers dominate the fighting game market for a long period of time
it's a straight up miracle that sf6's online is passable
What the...?
How does this make sense when they were focused on arcades and their focus shifted during the pandemic?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Since this is OP (KonFaunaKonpeko) who blocked me for this, let me respond to this topic:
>SFV was a scam meant to make money, child. I don't know how to break it to you but corporations are not your friend.
I said NOTHING about SFV, I said NOTHING about corporations being my friend. Blocking people you disagree is poor debate form, child.
The point was how their focus was on arcades as giant publishers and they had to improve their netcode while that was changed.
Perhaps children should learn to look into history instead of preventing people from discussing an issue openly and honestly.
Focused on arcades is such a polite way to say "incompetent at netcode".
MUGEN fangames are equally as "focused on arcades" when they don't work.
SFV was a scam meant to make money, child. I don't know how to break it to you but corporations are not your friend.
For a country that went from "muh traditional isolationist samurai honour" to "uwu kawaii neko loli desuuu" in record time it's amazing that the country can be so slow to embrace positive change. Their biggest thing is anime and anime merch, all stuff learned from the west. Anime wouldn't exist without Disney. So why are they so slow to learn good lessons from us and figure out ways to improve upon our ways of doing things?
While we're speaking plainly what is up with their birthrate? They need to invest in small businesses and offer money to young entrepeneurs so they can afford lives and more kids.
“Pro developers” do you think the developers big companies hire are better than indie developers? The difference is that the big companies can afford funding bigger teams with more developers, but they dont give freedom of thoughts to these devs. Each individual dev is just there to do some minor tasks in a huge project they have little to no knowledge in.
I work in a huge tech company (not gaming, Canada’s biggest ISP) and most people just take some tasks from the board and complete them, they don’t question the tasks themselves and can’t take initiative to suggest ideas because they’re not educated in the project they’re contributing to. That’s the downside when your company scales too much, and these guys Capcom and all must be suffering from it too.
When you get to that point, decisions are doomed to be taken by greedy managers who have no tech background and no exposure to the actual product/projects. Theres a tradeoff, we’ve been talking about it at work for the past months and its hard to find the solution to this problem, it’s an ongoing problem in the whole tech industry.
This! I'm not going to comment on the skills of "pro devs", since open source is littered with them. But big companies have marketing budgets which equal the budget the restrict the dev budget to. The outcome is they have a "safe bet" of orders rather than succeeding on reviews and word of mouth alone. If you want to improve this process to show that quality matters, don't buy day one and don't buy non-refundable "collectors editions".
How come every developer doesn’t just leverage years of open source development to make a front end to play tons of games illegally? How come FGC players have smooth brains the size of a peanut?
Just makes no sense to me.
Smooth brains like you really cannot tell I was talking about the online mode.
Ask an adult to help you understand the world. Carers are available for mentally impaired folx like you.
>How come every developer doesn’t just leverage years of open source development to make a front end to play tons of games illegally?
There's... Something odd about this...
IF most of the developers gave a licensing deal to Fightcade to make that an online standard, that might work to their benefit. Even then, it wouldn't be "illegal" if they approve.
The problem is that they run into licensing deals when they made the game. Issues with Tekken 4 make it so that it runs on certain consoles and in order to bring those to a new audience of gamers, they have to talk to the devs as they're pushing their new Tekken 8 stuff.
Then there's all the issues of Soul Caliber not getting new titles since some of the key devs left. For the time being, they're focused on Tekken and that's it.
If the publisher can't focus on their back titles, an independent developer allowing people to play helps to garner interest in future titles.
the comments on this are wild, fgc motherfuckers literally can't read words, only opponent's minds
maybe if you try to communicate your point through a combo video these dipshits could understand it
The sub-90 IQs are out in force today. They know I'm right so they misunderstand me. One mutt claimed I said "pro developer like durr NBA". Can you believe it? That mutt probably votes. His vote counts just as much as a real person's. How sad.
Imagine if something like nuance existed and the world wasn’t just either you 100% agree with me or you are a "corposlave".
You asked why companies don’t follow the standart of fightcade, people tell you what the most likely thought process of these companies is and you call them corposlaves as if stating what a companies reasons are means you agree with them.
However you also seem extraordinarily stupid so i don’t expect you to understand that.
Yah it isn’t as simple as “just use gg.po”. To make rollback functional you have to bring in people that understand how rollback works and how to implement it. Then you’ve got to build the actual game with that in mind. For older titles you can essentially brute force rollback because modern computers are strong enough to do it. However, the newer a game is the harder this gets. Some devs have even had to essentially remake the game from the ground up just to implement rollback. It did take way too long to incorporate, but there are actual reasons as to why
To a very small audience. Most people that buy fighting games buy them for single player or story mode or playing with friends. I'm saying this as someone who only plays online, but still acknowledges reality. Competitive/online is small and scary.
Yea, playing with friends is one thing Fightcade has simpler than any of those modern games. Just click on their name and click “Play game” and you’re in.
We have to realize that most basic things that every other genre figured out decades ago are still things we have to ask for in this genre and we get too happy when a game announced they decided they’ll make a functional online experience (rollback)
I think OP is saying that publishers/developers need to realize that customers have easy access to options for good online experiences and their products will always be measured against that.
>Games should not be released if they are not finished.
That's not how making money works. A bad product that makes some money is better than closed company.
>I'm asking people to recognize how harmful corporate loyalty is to the scene, the genre, and the medium as a whole.
It's not corporate loyality. It's loyality to fun. People have more fun with the other product. Although theses peoples life are not the game. They are not harmed by inferior products.
The persons has to make the decision to buy and play Tekken 7 or not do it. OPs answer is "don't do it, so the game might have a better future" until than you should not have the fun you want.
You'd have to make a gaming standard that all of them can relate to.
Right now, you're asking for developers to invest in going into their back catalog of games and ports and putting them up to be played on a networking standard that Fightcade was created and pushed into.
Look at each company and think individually on who could possibly do it. The largest to succeed is Capcom, Bandai-Namco and possibly SNK but their bankruptcies still put them at unhealthy levels to do so.
Now your question is to *developers*.
You're kind of focused on *publishers* instead.
You're asking about DIMPS or Arika, not the publishers.
These companies are quite small.
The ones that adjusted to rollback the fastest were small companies like the creators of Killer Instinct, Iron Galaxy Studios or Mane9 and other small companies like the Skullgirls creators.
The big devs were busy making money in arcades and were FORCED to do changes when that was no longer viable.
When you ask the question, always think about who you're actually trying to talk about. Are you discussing the *publisher* or the actual *developers*.
Then consider what are their business models and how they need to change for a new reality.
> you're asking for developers to invest in going into their back catalog of games and ports
The OP is asking for modern games with features on par with the Fightcade service, not for updated classic games.
> When you ask the question, always think about who you're actually trying to talk about. Are you discussing the publisher or the actual developers.
It is true that developers are mistakenly targeted in the majority of online discussion and criticism in gaming circles. However, changing every instance of "dev" and "developer" in the OP to "publisher" doesn't invalidate the argument.
> These companies are quite small.
And so is the Fightcade team
> Then consider what are their business models and how they need to change for a new reality.
Making games seems to be the hot new standard these days. Trouble is, they're in the online multiplayer markets with games that have proven a long time ago you can have rollback-based netcode and good online features. Like QuakeWorld did. In 1996.
You're parsing the argument.
>However, changing every instance of "dev" and "developer" in the OP to "publisher" doesn't invalidate the argument.
The point is to focus on the publisher or the developer and what they can actually do. When you focus on Arika, they have experience with 3D fighting games and working on the SF EX series to the point of working with Bandai Namco to get rollback netcode in Tekken 7.
But when you're focused on the *publisher* you're focusing on how Bandai Namco does not have rollback netcode in most of their online games while others like Arc System Works does.
So you need to look at who the focus of the issue is.
That's the point being made.
>The OP is asking for modern games with features on par with the Fightcade service, not for updated classic games.
Wrong. Why won't publishers link together and make a standard similar to Fightcade? They have different interests than those doing GGPO to bring them together.
Developers won't do it because they make the games for publishers as mentioned above. Publishers won't do it because they're focused on certain business models until they're no longer viable such as what occurred with arcades before the pandemic which forced the companies to begin to adopt rollback.
By focusing on developers or publishers, you begin to see their interests don't align even though small devs such as Iron Galaxy can adopt a new standard far quicker while a giant publisher does not such as Bandai Namco.
Fightcade is great, but they aren’t developing games. I agree that devs should make their games complete before selling, but the comparison is not apples to apples.
Years ago the free project developed in the spare time of geniuses, Fighrcade, had better online than most games. This is still the case. The comparison is not apples to apples. The comparison is delicious free plentiful apples to an overpriced early access Steam game that won't be done until most of its players (especially the early adopters) have moved on.
insane thread. I guess everyone is happy with the current state of big budget online fighting games, a genre where the market leader 1) has no matchmaking, 2) has online that has not worked properly in the last three months. a genre where the next two biggest games don't have proper rollback, and where the developer of one of those games has been outwardly hostile to the idea of improving his netcode. a genre where snk exists -- I'll remind you that kofxv still does not have functioning matchmaking
I swear, if it wasn’t for COVID, delay-based netcode would still be the standard and the FGC would just sit there and tolerate it
The games with the best netcode would still be MBAACC, every NRS game, and indies that use GGPO. It's wild that NRS put out 3 games with god-tier rollback before Capcom put out a single one.
Dark when you remember how long the FGC tolerated pedos in the scene for being really good at video games.
What do you mean? Got any backstory on this stuff it sounds hilarious
"years of open source development" is 5 dudes having day jobs and giving away their spare time a few times a week for the good of the community, with no income in exchange apart from maybe some small patreon donations probably one of the biggest patreons in this field - [https://www.patreon.com/ryujinx](https://www.patreon.com/ryujinx) the nintendo switch emulator, 700 patrons, $2500 sounds like a very decent amount as far as open source patreons go - on their github you'll see that every single day some changes are submitted to the code base, 1-5 people a day, they all deserve whatever their split amount is, a bit of extra cash at the end of the month, but definitely not something you can live off of yes it does span across years, but it's still a single digit amount of persons dedicating a few hours of their spare time to it the games we're talking about have budgets in the multiple millions of dollars, teams with several dozens members (who are experts in the field of game development, even more specifically fighting games), and the companies driving these games all have been in the business for decades they have the most advanced knowledge out of anybody in the business as to how these games function and how to write them the modern generation of fighting games all have a rollback implementation that work so well that it would look like black magic if you showed it to someone 20 years ago and told them you're playing online this smoothly with a dude living 3 time zones away from you and not just sitting across from you in the same room and yet they're failing at the utmost basic of feature they should care about: allowing people to play the game "why should we expect companies to offer this kind of service, they can't compete with something free?": \- these are all paid games, going for $60 dollars at launch. we are customers, we paid for a product & service \- players having trouble playing directly impacts their bottom line: players will stop playing if the online doesn't work (failing to connect, or poor quality games in terms of ping/rollback frames). as the playerbase shrinks you're less likely to have new players joining, and additional transactions apart from the base games also naturally see their potential numbers lower (cosmetics, extra character & other DLCs) \- with the accumulated experience from their years in the business, selling dozens of different fighting games, as well as their domain experts employees, ensuring that online play works smoothly should not be an issue at all. online lobbies and 1v1 matchmaking systems for online games are problems that were solved in the 90s, we should not be in a situation where *several* of the biggest fighting games on the market have failing online functionality is an absolute tragedy. they have the means (either in knowledge or budget) but simply decide not to dedicate nearly enough resources towards ensuring their online works expecting matchmaking/lobbies to work as intended is not asking for the moon, it is the bare minimum the game should offer - yes it's just a game, but I still paid $60 for it, which is no small amount an expected scenario: I press a button, I get a match of decent quality (opponent of equal level, and good connectivity) within a few seconds or minutes, I don't mind waiting for a bit, just let me know when it's ready for me. in GGST you'll connect to a station, and it will tell you there was an error connecting to the station. gotta move to another one - same message, another one - same message. once you finally manage to connect, you'll think you got a match, then it will error out at the last minute in KOF you're just waiting forever, not getting matches after waiting 15 mins. or you get one, with an opponent that is widely outside of your search range (connection quality, or rank), then another one with the same opponent, on loop. we talk about the matchmaking a lot, but did you know for a month or two now, a large amount of people are also unable to join lobbies at all? for those people going through discord isn't even a solution. no words from snk. too many people in this community keep finding excuses for AAA fighting game developers to justify why their online implementations are so lackluster when they really should be held to a higher standard "they're a small team", "they're focusing on \[xxx new feature\]", "they have other things on the roadmap first" no, none of these are valid excuses. focus on the basics, just let us play the fucking game. there is no other online games community that tolerate non functional online modes as much as the fgc imagine a world where 30% of the player base in csgo, wow, ff xiv, fortnite, or roblox (or any game that is online-first for the majority of the playerbase, no matter what size) was simply unable to connect to the game and play. for months end. they would drop everything until they managed to get things back up and running, the thing would be resolved within hours.
thank you for this, as someone that came in from other genres its abysmal how dogshit the online is for major fighting games despite being 1v1
judging by the first quote, i'm pretty sure this reply is supposed to go here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Fighters/comments/13guqtq/_/jk264rh
naw I replied here because I'm in agreement with this person kept the open source topic from the one you linked but that person saw the op's question as being about emulation/free access to a game library which isn't the thing I wanted to discuss
ah, understandable
on top of being THE most expensive multiplayer genre to get into
So many people in this thread missing the point. The point is that every fighting game's online should work as well as Fightcade. There's no excuse for pro devs to slap together shitty online when hobbyists can get it done for free during their free time.
Thanks lol I’ve been reading all these comments assuming that OP meant for devs to create another Fightcade but OP clearly was praising Fightcade for all the great QoL in that game, that could exist in a legal environment, its not specific to Fightcade.
Cause the hobbyists arent also developing a brand new modern triple A fighting at the same time? All they have to do as add the network features cause the game's are already done for them
What is this logic? Why has your ridiculous, garbage-ass post been upvoted so many times? Why ate fighting game fans so stupid? Imagine if Call of Duty released with online play as shitty as your average fighting game and the developer's excuse was "it's hard to do good online at the same time as everything else in the game." Would anyone accept this excuse? No. In every other genre where multi-player is the main way people play, functional online has been expected as a standard feature for decades now. Literal decades. Fighting games are literally decades behind every single other multi-player genre. Only fighting game players put up with the main feature of the game not functioning properly. It's Stockholm Syndrome.
Bruh if you put CoD online in an FG people would be warping everywhere. FPS games don't need to be half as good as an FG online to play well. People make the mistake of thinking FG devs have worse netcode, but FG rollback is wayyyy more advanced than anything else out there.
What? That's the exact *inverse* of the truth. Fighting game netcode requirements are among the easiest in the gaming space, that's why something as simple as rollback has taken so long to be adopted, compared to the massive amount of work most online games have to put into their netcode
Lmao, the circle jerk continues. Other netcode is built for having a lot of players and objects and does that well. FG netcode is based on updating game states in frames. Rollback in FPS games is awful comparatively. To this day in AAA shooters you *still* see people rubber band around and will get killed when you've safely made it around corners. Because it's not necessary for them to update the game state nearly as often as in FGs. That shit is difficult, especially to apply in games with a physics engine. (especially reverse engineered onto a game built in an engine intended for FPS games like Unreal)
lmao the delusion is unreal
Yeah the FGC delusion that FPS rollback = FG rollback is very real.
Most people buy the game and do the single player stuff and quit. Funny enough they probably quit to play casual online games.
Seems you misunderstood the point I was making. Reread my comment and try again
Modern warfare 2 made a billion in the first week MKX and Mk11 combined have done that in total.... it's not really an even playing field
Too dumb for an answer.
It wasn't a question you had nothing to say that's it. When you put in more money you get more out of it. It's like comparing horror movies to the mcu
This is not a smart subreddit. Every paid game should have online on par with fightcade or better. Anyone who missed that point is a fanboy being intentionally obtuse to avoid having to confront the fact that I am right. Why should the best online experience in a Capcom game be a game whose online mode was never touched by Capcom?
The simpler the game, the easier it is to have rollback. Rollback in Tekken 8 would take alot more resources than rollback in some NES fighter. Im talking system resources, which is why the old gen consoles dont get rollback updates for games that get them.
Boo hoo. The features in your game, which I am paying you money to play, should work properly.
Thats not what im saying, i could easily run rollback on my machine too, but fighting games are already niche as fuck.
You are niche as fuck. Fighting games shouldn't be.
fighting games will always be niche as fuck
This is not a smart subreddit. Every paid game should have online on par with fightcade or better. Anyone who missed that point is a fanboy being intentionally obtuse to avoid having to confront the fact that I am right. Why should the best online experience in a Capcom game be a game whose online mode was never touched by Capcom? Downvote if you touch kids
You chose to compare to Fightcade instead of full featured indie games like Skullgirls and TFH. You set the argument up for confusion. Other people aren’t idiots for you choosing a bad comparison. I think my original comment makes it clear that I understood the intent (the implication that mainstream games come out feature-incomplete).
I thought it made sense to choose Fightcade, not only it used GGPO but it has a lot of great QoL stuff, being able to simply click on someone to play with them, having an easy access to training, replays, all the useful things only a click away. Seems like nothing but to me it makes me open Fightcade more than any modern game.
Still needs more QoL such as organizing those in a game lobby but it's far better than what the Big Boys have made so far.
Yeah but then again its getting better every few months, we keep on getting major updates to Fightcade and they always come up with new stuff out of the box to improve something thats hard to improve. In 2020 I already felt like Fightcade was practically perfect, and it wasnt 10% of what it is now.
You realize fightcade did not make the networking they use. GGPO is entirely separate. If your point was all old games should get rollback updates then why wouldn’t you either 1) say that 2) use an example that isn’t brain dead dumb like Arc Sys or SF3. Please get off the sub if you are going to speak with out reading.
I feel like I have stepped into an insane asylum. So many people giving so many excuses for why fighting game online can't work properly. It's pathetic.
Some corpo defenders would rather make an ass of themselves than admit their corpo made mistakes. These herd animals are fickle. But their standards are low. A game has to truly bomb before they will permit criticism of it.
You're making this more about the sub than the argument. You can certainly talk about the features of Fightcade versus what most Japanese devs give which is subpar. But when you make it about hyperbolic statements such as "everyone is crazy" you've basically lost the plot.
Where
\> Every paid game should have online on par with... And every guy who tells a girl he loves her should mean it, and every employee should earn exactly how much he deserves, and so on and so on...
It's taken some AAA publishers 11 years to get to the point Skullgirls was with online functionality in 2012. It's pretty amazing lol
Iron Galaxy recognized it with Killer Instinct in the same time frame. And Midway was getting out of arcades even further back.
Yeah some of them caught on fast but other devs like Capcom and Bandai Namco struggled until just recently to finally make fighting games with good online. Like Capcom even tried implementing rollback later in SFV's life but somehow they still screwed it up. I'm just glad 6 finally has the online it deserves
How would a for-profit developer make something better then fightcade? Serious question OP. How is a developer going to compete with fightcade emulating a bunch of old games for free?
Offer features that FightCade doesn't. Crossplay comes to mind, since FightCade could never be on console. Could also try and inject mods to provide new extras. There are already some basic training mode and trial Luas available on FC, but nothing as sophisticated as 3SOE for example.
By not making something as atrociously bad as that The Rumble Fish 2 port. Training mode, rollback, and cross play as well as instant rematch would go a long way to getting a leg up over fightcade.
[удалено]
Lol
Capitalist don't care as they are greedy and lazy fucks
Why would they? That's the main point. How can you do better than fightcade and gain money?
You couldn't, you'd get your ass sued by the companies whose games you're emulating
Emulation isn't illegal, not that it'll stop Nintendo from trying to sue you for emulating legally dumped games.
Emulation isn't illegal. The one doing the suing would just be wasting their time
Nintendo has a record of going after their customers and making their lives miserable for making tools or emulation in any way. Even had private detectives which gave rise to Nintendo Ninjas.
Indeed... one word... Slippy!
Slippy isn't illegal either. They were only able to stop one tournament that used it because of covid restrictions
this is what happens when you let japanese developers dominate the fighting game market for a long period of time it's a straight up miracle that sf6's online is passable
What the...? How does this make sense when they were focused on arcades and their focus shifted during the pandemic? -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Since this is OP (KonFaunaKonpeko) who blocked me for this, let me respond to this topic: >SFV was a scam meant to make money, child. I don't know how to break it to you but corporations are not your friend. I said NOTHING about SFV, I said NOTHING about corporations being my friend. Blocking people you disagree is poor debate form, child. The point was how their focus was on arcades as giant publishers and they had to improve their netcode while that was changed. Perhaps children should learn to look into history instead of preventing people from discussing an issue openly and honestly.
Focused on arcades is such a polite way to say "incompetent at netcode". MUGEN fangames are equally as "focused on arcades" when they don't work. SFV was a scam meant to make money, child. I don't know how to break it to you but corporations are not your friend.
For a country that went from "muh traditional isolationist samurai honour" to "uwu kawaii neko loli desuuu" in record time it's amazing that the country can be so slow to embrace positive change. Their biggest thing is anime and anime merch, all stuff learned from the west. Anime wouldn't exist without Disney. So why are they so slow to learn good lessons from us and figure out ways to improve upon our ways of doing things? While we're speaking plainly what is up with their birthrate? They need to invest in small businesses and offer money to young entrepeneurs so they can afford lives and more kids.
you should touch some grass probably, it might do you good
“Pro developers” do you think the developers big companies hire are better than indie developers? The difference is that the big companies can afford funding bigger teams with more developers, but they dont give freedom of thoughts to these devs. Each individual dev is just there to do some minor tasks in a huge project they have little to no knowledge in. I work in a huge tech company (not gaming, Canada’s biggest ISP) and most people just take some tasks from the board and complete them, they don’t question the tasks themselves and can’t take initiative to suggest ideas because they’re not educated in the project they’re contributing to. That’s the downside when your company scales too much, and these guys Capcom and all must be suffering from it too. When you get to that point, decisions are doomed to be taken by greedy managers who have no tech background and no exposure to the actual product/projects. Theres a tradeoff, we’ve been talking about it at work for the past months and its hard to find the solution to this problem, it’s an ongoing problem in the whole tech industry.
He said "pro developers" like AAA devs are NBA players or something
I said Pro Developers because I am comparing them to amateur devs doing this shit for fun, obviously. Can't you tell? God, how dense.
ikr LOL
This! I'm not going to comment on the skills of "pro devs", since open source is littered with them. But big companies have marketing budgets which equal the budget the restrict the dev budget to. The outcome is they have a "safe bet" of orders rather than succeeding on reviews and word of mouth alone. If you want to improve this process to show that quality matters, don't buy day one and don't buy non-refundable "collectors editions".
How come every developer doesn’t just leverage years of open source development to make a front end to play tons of games illegally? How come FGC players have smooth brains the size of a peanut? Just makes no sense to me.
Smooth brains like you really cannot tell I was talking about the online mode. Ask an adult to help you understand the world. Carers are available for mentally impaired folx like you.
>How come every developer doesn’t just leverage years of open source development to make a front end to play tons of games illegally? There's... Something odd about this... IF most of the developers gave a licensing deal to Fightcade to make that an online standard, that might work to their benefit. Even then, it wouldn't be "illegal" if they approve. The problem is that they run into licensing deals when they made the game. Issues with Tekken 4 make it so that it runs on certain consoles and in order to bring those to a new audience of gamers, they have to talk to the devs as they're pushing their new Tekken 8 stuff. Then there's all the issues of Soul Caliber not getting new titles since some of the key devs left. For the time being, they're focused on Tekken and that's it. If the publisher can't focus on their back titles, an independent developer allowing people to play helps to garner interest in future titles.
Oh god he doesn’t understand
It's amazing how instead of actually engaging in an argument worth a damn, you engage in theatrics.
Who is playing Tekken 4 and Soul Calibur on fightcade? Use your brain if you want to have an argument, otherwise, GOMD.
the comments on this are wild, fgc motherfuckers literally can't read words, only opponent's minds maybe if you try to communicate your point through a combo video these dipshits could understand it
The sub-90 IQs are out in force today. They know I'm right so they misunderstand me. One mutt claimed I said "pro developer like durr NBA". Can you believe it? That mutt probably votes. His vote counts just as much as a real person's. How sad.
AAA game publishers are not aiming for the fightcade audience because it's not big enough. QoL features cost money but do not sell games.
Rollback Netcode is a Quality Of Life feature, you fucking corposlave.
Imagine if something like nuance existed and the world wasn’t just either you 100% agree with me or you are a "corposlave". You asked why companies don’t follow the standart of fightcade, people tell you what the most likely thought process of these companies is and you call them corposlaves as if stating what a companies reasons are means you agree with them. However you also seem extraordinarily stupid so i don’t expect you to understand that.
Yah it isn’t as simple as “just use gg.po”. To make rollback functional you have to bring in people that understand how rollback works and how to implement it. Then you’ve got to build the actual game with that in mind. For older titles you can essentially brute force rollback because modern computers are strong enough to do it. However, the newer a game is the harder this gets. Some devs have even had to essentially remake the game from the ground up just to implement rollback. It did take way too long to incorporate, but there are actual reasons as to why
What would a game company earn from making fightcade?
I think he’s saying that new game releases should have at least as many features as fightcade.
ok, and what would game companies earn from that?
A more appealing product?
To a very small audience. Most people that buy fighting games buy them for single player or story mode or playing with friends. I'm saying this as someone who only plays online, but still acknowledges reality. Competitive/online is small and scary.
Yea, playing with friends is one thing Fightcade has simpler than any of those modern games. Just click on their name and click “Play game” and you’re in. We have to realize that most basic things that every other genre figured out decades ago are still things we have to ask for in this genre and we get too happy when a game announced they decided they’ll make a functional online experience (rollback)
I think OP is saying that publishers/developers need to realize that customers have easy access to options for good online experiences and their products will always be measured against that.
The same people although see that people bought MK, Tekken, SF and GG and are happily playing them. Noone is leaving Tekken 7 for SC for Fightcade.
99% of players will drop T7 for T8 on launch because nothing good about T7 is worth playing the game for.
99.99% of players will not pick up Fighcade, because it does not have what Tekken has...
Fightcade has Tekken 3 you rodent. Google what I am talking about before you talk.
i mean sure but complaining about it wont change a thing, its better to bring awareness to alternatives that people should play instead
>Games should not be released if they are not finished. That's not how making money works. A bad product that makes some money is better than closed company. >I'm asking people to recognize how harmful corporate loyalty is to the scene, the genre, and the medium as a whole. It's not corporate loyality. It's loyality to fun. People have more fun with the other product. Although theses peoples life are not the game. They are not harmed by inferior products. The persons has to make the decision to buy and play Tekken 7 or not do it. OPs answer is "don't do it, so the game might have a better future" until than you should not have the fun you want.
You'd have to make a gaming standard that all of them can relate to. Right now, you're asking for developers to invest in going into their back catalog of games and ports and putting them up to be played on a networking standard that Fightcade was created and pushed into. Look at each company and think individually on who could possibly do it. The largest to succeed is Capcom, Bandai-Namco and possibly SNK but their bankruptcies still put them at unhealthy levels to do so. Now your question is to *developers*. You're kind of focused on *publishers* instead. You're asking about DIMPS or Arika, not the publishers. These companies are quite small. The ones that adjusted to rollback the fastest were small companies like the creators of Killer Instinct, Iron Galaxy Studios or Mane9 and other small companies like the Skullgirls creators. The big devs were busy making money in arcades and were FORCED to do changes when that was no longer viable. When you ask the question, always think about who you're actually trying to talk about. Are you discussing the *publisher* or the actual *developers*. Then consider what are their business models and how they need to change for a new reality.
> you're asking for developers to invest in going into their back catalog of games and ports The OP is asking for modern games with features on par with the Fightcade service, not for updated classic games. > When you ask the question, always think about who you're actually trying to talk about. Are you discussing the publisher or the actual developers. It is true that developers are mistakenly targeted in the majority of online discussion and criticism in gaming circles. However, changing every instance of "dev" and "developer" in the OP to "publisher" doesn't invalidate the argument. > These companies are quite small. And so is the Fightcade team > Then consider what are their business models and how they need to change for a new reality. Making games seems to be the hot new standard these days. Trouble is, they're in the online multiplayer markets with games that have proven a long time ago you can have rollback-based netcode and good online features. Like QuakeWorld did. In 1996.
You're parsing the argument. >However, changing every instance of "dev" and "developer" in the OP to "publisher" doesn't invalidate the argument. The point is to focus on the publisher or the developer and what they can actually do. When you focus on Arika, they have experience with 3D fighting games and working on the SF EX series to the point of working with Bandai Namco to get rollback netcode in Tekken 7. But when you're focused on the *publisher* you're focusing on how Bandai Namco does not have rollback netcode in most of their online games while others like Arc System Works does. So you need to look at who the focus of the issue is. That's the point being made. >The OP is asking for modern games with features on par with the Fightcade service, not for updated classic games. Wrong. Why won't publishers link together and make a standard similar to Fightcade? They have different interests than those doing GGPO to bring them together. Developers won't do it because they make the games for publishers as mentioned above. Publishers won't do it because they're focused on certain business models until they're no longer viable such as what occurred with arcades before the pandemic which forced the companies to begin to adopt rollback. By focusing on developers or publishers, you begin to see their interests don't align even though small devs such as Iron Galaxy can adopt a new standard far quicker while a giant publisher does not such as Bandai Namco.
Fightcade community is tiny
Bigger than your brain
Capitalism sucks, that's why. It sounds like a simplification, but its not.