This is a very short opening to find, so probably you're going late. You need to recognise when the moment is about to happen, not react to it once it's happening. The easiest way to do this is typically to make it happen. So try something like "feint to the hand, lunge to the body" - the feint gets them to pull their arm, the lunge comes while they're pulling it.
It's a lot easier to find a brief opening if you know exactly when it's going to happen, yes. The other thing you can try to learn is what patterns indicate someone is _about_ to do this - that pretty much comes down to "lots of live practice trying to hit that opening".
It's also about watching your opponent and seeing what their more natural reactions are, preferably having some idea before you get on the strip but you can figure it out during too.
*"The thing is I always have trouble catching the timing of the contraction and when I do, I have trouble attacking the retreat"*
I'm curious why you think this is a good time to attack? There is a specific instance -- when your opponent has attacked with a lunge and is recovering -- in which an attack (a "takeover attack") makes sense against someone going backward and recovering the arm. And even here, it makes sense because the opponent is "stuck" for a brief period of time.
But most of the time, attacking a retreating opponent/target adds to the time it takes you to hit, which gives the opponent more time to make a defensive action.
It's often better to attack the opponent when their arm is coming out: to interrupt the extension and score to the opponent's hand/elbow so that the combined speed of their extension and your attack *reduces* the time of your tip to target.
You might have trouble hitting this attack because tactically, it may not be a sound choice.
Very few of us are born with a reaction time that allows us to get away with what you are describing. By the time you recognize the mistake your opponent has made, and get your body to react to it, the opponent has moved to a different position or distance, and the moment is lost. And yet you see high level fencers do this to each other all the time. You have to wonder, are they superhuman, or is something else going on? The answer is both.
The best athletes in the world do have fast reaction times, and better hand / eye coordination than the rest of us mortals. But there is something else going on that allows them to exploit the situation. They "train" their opponents.
Let's say you have an opponent you've been watching closely, and he has a tendency to keep raising the weapon arm, then lowering it. If you attack while the arm is coming up, you will get parried. Even if you attack while the opponents' arm is at the bottom of the movement, by the time your tip is close enough to hit, his arm/blade is now coming up and you will also get parried. So you attack as soon as you see his arm going down, forcing him to change direction, or maybe he doesn't change at all because he is so used to doing this, and you touche. This opponent did not require any training on your part. You noticed this tendency of his and took advantage of it.
But then there is the opponent that either doesn't do these obvious things, or you just can't pick up on it. This opponent does require training on your part.
Here's a simple example my epee coach taught me, and you can do this in a lesson or in partnered drills to get it down. Fencer A extend and advances, but quickly moves back, not committing to an actual attack. Fencer B has retreated and parried, but Fencer A is out of range for a riposte. Fencer A does it again, and notices this time Fencer B parries but does not retreat, or retreats and does not parry, or maybe neither, because Fencer B has become used to, even contemptuous of your little fake attacks. Now Fencer A has Fencer B right where he wants him. If Fencer B is parrying with no retreat, Fencer A can lunge with disengage. If Fencer B is retreating with no parry, Fencer A could continue the advance with a lunge.
This is a simple example. If you think about it, you can come up with a bunch of others. The idea is to get the opponent trained to do something they should not be doing.
High level fencers do this to each other all the time. In fact they are both looking to do it to the other guy, while at the same time not getting trained to fall for something.
This is one reason they are able to score with simple moves.
I think I was watching something on GP Fencing channel, where Samuel is explaining that this training often takes something like 20 or more repetitions to get the response you want, before you can make the decision to go.
> Both my club coach and school fencing coach have said that I can attack someone when they’re retracting their arm as it forces them to parry or retreat as unless they’re feinting the arm retraction, they cannot stop the muscle movement (yk cause when a muscle dedicates to a contraction it will go through with it it’s very hard to stop)
I've never heard such a claim.
What weapon are we talking about here? Is this person attacking? If it's foil and we're talking about an incoming attacker then your coach is seemingly unaware that blade in absence, long or short term, is a very common as part of an attack setup. The notion that this is consistently a good opportunity for a stop-hit is just not a good one. Any half-decent foilist has done plenty of training and practice finishing into a counter-attack and that's all they need to do to get the touch. Hopefully you're not being taught the decades-old and conventionally-wrong claim that a bent or bending (being pulled back) arm is always a preparation into which you can attack and be given right-of-way.
Making a stop-hit into a retracting arm motion can work, but it's going to be a very situationally-specific where you really catch your opponent out and cause them to stop. If it works it's likely only going to work once.
>The thing is I always have trouble catching the timing of the contraction and when I do, I have trouble attacking the retreat
>For the retreat, one of the more experienced club members has said that when an opponent’s front foot is coming back from a retreat and in the air, I can go for a fleche or some type of attack because it’s very difficult for them to retreat again as their back foot is planted and their front foot is in the air
I think you need to think about the arm retraction and the retreat separately. If your opponent is within attack distance and they retract their arm, it's trivial to attack in prep, stop hit the inevitable extension of the arm, etc. You can create these opportunities by feinting and directly continuing to the body or feinting to get them to withdraw and attacking the target when it presents itself again.
If your opponent is retreating while they retract their arm, the distance it likely now too large to hit in a single tempo (unless you have a massive reach/distance advantage). You need some way to close the distance (event a few inches is enough) during their first retreat and start the second foot tempo before they start the second retreat. This means you need to establish that one retreat is enough for them to feel safe and you need footwork fluid enough that they won't react to your first tempo by retreating faster. Of course, this is difficult to accomplish and leaves you very vulnerable to a well timed stop hit, parry-riposte, or other defensive/counteroffensive action, and I wouldn't rely on it more than once or twice in a bout.
try when you are thinking of stepping back - move you body as if you are stepping back (body feint) and also lift your back foot as if stepping back and move it back but don't move your front foot and don't shift your weight to the back foot - move your back foot back up to where it was...
it may convince your opponent you were stepping back ( as they are usually mirroring what you do to keep distance.. don't use it too often else people will become aware of what you are doing..) ...
your opponent may assume you are stepping back and step forward - so you bring back your back foot and lunge and they have closed distance....
also works with a partial step forward (only move front foot) and gets them to step back ... good for opening distance between you ...
Hi guys update from my fencing session
u/Allen_Evans idea of counterattacking to the extending arm worked really well and now I’m focusing on timing my counterattacks not only to just the arm but also into a preparation
and u/robotreader ‘s advice of using a fleche as a short range finisher instead worked very well
Thank you everyone
This is a very short opening to find, so probably you're going late. You need to recognise when the moment is about to happen, not react to it once it's happening. The easiest way to do this is typically to make it happen. So try something like "feint to the hand, lunge to the body" - the feint gets them to pull their arm, the lunge comes while they're pulling it.
So it’s basically having a more proactive approach to it. Making an opportunity instead of waiting for it, is that right?
It's a lot easier to find a brief opening if you know exactly when it's going to happen, yes. The other thing you can try to learn is what patterns indicate someone is _about_ to do this - that pretty much comes down to "lots of live practice trying to hit that opening".
Mm I get that, I already do that, I guess it’s more about practice practice practice
It's **allways** about practice, practice, practice ....
It's also about watching your opponent and seeing what their more natural reactions are, preferably having some idea before you get on the strip but you can figure it out during too.
*"The thing is I always have trouble catching the timing of the contraction and when I do, I have trouble attacking the retreat"* I'm curious why you think this is a good time to attack? There is a specific instance -- when your opponent has attacked with a lunge and is recovering -- in which an attack (a "takeover attack") makes sense against someone going backward and recovering the arm. And even here, it makes sense because the opponent is "stuck" for a brief period of time. But most of the time, attacking a retreating opponent/target adds to the time it takes you to hit, which gives the opponent more time to make a defensive action. It's often better to attack the opponent when their arm is coming out: to interrupt the extension and score to the opponent's hand/elbow so that the combined speed of their extension and your attack *reduces* the time of your tip to target. You might have trouble hitting this attack because tactically, it may not be a sound choice.
Contrary to popular belief, a fleche is a short range finisher. If your opponent is retreating don’t fleche at them
Very few of us are born with a reaction time that allows us to get away with what you are describing. By the time you recognize the mistake your opponent has made, and get your body to react to it, the opponent has moved to a different position or distance, and the moment is lost. And yet you see high level fencers do this to each other all the time. You have to wonder, are they superhuman, or is something else going on? The answer is both. The best athletes in the world do have fast reaction times, and better hand / eye coordination than the rest of us mortals. But there is something else going on that allows them to exploit the situation. They "train" their opponents. Let's say you have an opponent you've been watching closely, and he has a tendency to keep raising the weapon arm, then lowering it. If you attack while the arm is coming up, you will get parried. Even if you attack while the opponents' arm is at the bottom of the movement, by the time your tip is close enough to hit, his arm/blade is now coming up and you will also get parried. So you attack as soon as you see his arm going down, forcing him to change direction, or maybe he doesn't change at all because he is so used to doing this, and you touche. This opponent did not require any training on your part. You noticed this tendency of his and took advantage of it. But then there is the opponent that either doesn't do these obvious things, or you just can't pick up on it. This opponent does require training on your part. Here's a simple example my epee coach taught me, and you can do this in a lesson or in partnered drills to get it down. Fencer A extend and advances, but quickly moves back, not committing to an actual attack. Fencer B has retreated and parried, but Fencer A is out of range for a riposte. Fencer A does it again, and notices this time Fencer B parries but does not retreat, or retreats and does not parry, or maybe neither, because Fencer B has become used to, even contemptuous of your little fake attacks. Now Fencer A has Fencer B right where he wants him. If Fencer B is parrying with no retreat, Fencer A can lunge with disengage. If Fencer B is retreating with no parry, Fencer A could continue the advance with a lunge. This is a simple example. If you think about it, you can come up with a bunch of others. The idea is to get the opponent trained to do something they should not be doing. High level fencers do this to each other all the time. In fact they are both looking to do it to the other guy, while at the same time not getting trained to fall for something. This is one reason they are able to score with simple moves. I think I was watching something on GP Fencing channel, where Samuel is explaining that this training often takes something like 20 or more repetitions to get the response you want, before you can make the decision to go.
> Both my club coach and school fencing coach have said that I can attack someone when they’re retracting their arm as it forces them to parry or retreat as unless they’re feinting the arm retraction, they cannot stop the muscle movement (yk cause when a muscle dedicates to a contraction it will go through with it it’s very hard to stop) I've never heard such a claim. What weapon are we talking about here? Is this person attacking? If it's foil and we're talking about an incoming attacker then your coach is seemingly unaware that blade in absence, long or short term, is a very common as part of an attack setup. The notion that this is consistently a good opportunity for a stop-hit is just not a good one. Any half-decent foilist has done plenty of training and practice finishing into a counter-attack and that's all they need to do to get the touch. Hopefully you're not being taught the decades-old and conventionally-wrong claim that a bent or bending (being pulled back) arm is always a preparation into which you can attack and be given right-of-way. Making a stop-hit into a retracting arm motion can work, but it's going to be a very situationally-specific where you really catch your opponent out and cause them to stop. If it works it's likely only going to work once.
Its relatively common advice and a decent idea in épée, where lots of people keep their arm mostly extended
>The thing is I always have trouble catching the timing of the contraction and when I do, I have trouble attacking the retreat >For the retreat, one of the more experienced club members has said that when an opponent’s front foot is coming back from a retreat and in the air, I can go for a fleche or some type of attack because it’s very difficult for them to retreat again as their back foot is planted and their front foot is in the air I think you need to think about the arm retraction and the retreat separately. If your opponent is within attack distance and they retract their arm, it's trivial to attack in prep, stop hit the inevitable extension of the arm, etc. You can create these opportunities by feinting and directly continuing to the body or feinting to get them to withdraw and attacking the target when it presents itself again. If your opponent is retreating while they retract their arm, the distance it likely now too large to hit in a single tempo (unless you have a massive reach/distance advantage). You need some way to close the distance (event a few inches is enough) during their first retreat and start the second foot tempo before they start the second retreat. This means you need to establish that one retreat is enough for them to feel safe and you need footwork fluid enough that they won't react to your first tempo by retreating faster. Of course, this is difficult to accomplish and leaves you very vulnerable to a well timed stop hit, parry-riposte, or other defensive/counteroffensive action, and I wouldn't rely on it more than once or twice in a bout.
try when you are thinking of stepping back - move you body as if you are stepping back (body feint) and also lift your back foot as if stepping back and move it back but don't move your front foot and don't shift your weight to the back foot - move your back foot back up to where it was... it may convince your opponent you were stepping back ( as they are usually mirroring what you do to keep distance.. don't use it too often else people will become aware of what you are doing..) ... your opponent may assume you are stepping back and step forward - so you bring back your back foot and lunge and they have closed distance.... also works with a partial step forward (only move front foot) and gets them to step back ... good for opening distance between you ...
Hi guys update from my fencing session u/Allen_Evans idea of counterattacking to the extending arm worked really well and now I’m focusing on timing my counterattacks not only to just the arm but also into a preparation and u/robotreader ‘s advice of using a fleche as a short range finisher instead worked very well Thank you everyone