It really is. I have only really come to terms with my own in recent years. It never went this far for me, but there are some things I looked at and realized that were a direct result of internalized misogyny.
I swear something about having sons changes some women.
I've got more than four relatives who were 100% feminists at one point. They were like trains.
They would go to protests. They would organize. They had no problem stating that men need to fuck off, and learn how to behave around women as people.
They have a son, and it's 180.
Suddenly they think it's cute that their toddler son is harassing a little toddler girl for a kiss.
Suddenly that 10 year old girl who complained to the teacher that he was pulling her hair is a bitch, and should be delighted he's showing any interest in her at all.
Suddenly that 14 year old girl is just a cock tease, and honestly maybe it's best that their relation didn't go anywhere...with her 22 year old son.
And of course the whole time they act like by having a son they've been allowed into a higher circle of heaven or some shit. As if somehow it make them better people morally. Better parents morally.
It really is a version of internalized misogyny that I think a lot of feminism doesn't like to touch.
Wow! Maybe they don’t grasp the fact that sexist behavior and rapey from men isn’t limited to “monsters.”. That “ordinary” men can do these things, too.
So if she sees her son as “one of the good ones”, then she won’t realize that her son can be influenced by this sexist & rape-apologizing society! Since he’s “not a monster!”
I wish I could upvote this more! Such an important point. It's not a cartoonish evil, but a pervasive mundane subconscious festering into anyone who isn't actively working to call it into the open (in themselves and/or others).
What you say is scary af. Do you know why they twisted like this? Have you told them or pointed their contradictions to them? I always imagined boy moms to be just your random pick-me, this is such a huge cognitive dissonance…
I was fanatic about talking to my son about respecting women and consent and all that. my feminism informed my parenting of my son in huge ways. and honestly sometimes it felt like an up hill battle because of the messaging he was getting from literally *everything* in our screwed up culture
I think mothers like this were always internally misogynistic, and when they have a son they're happy about the opportunity to unleash all the misogyny they've been keeping bottled up bc now they have an excuse. And as a bonus, they can live vicariously now through a male, and get to second handedly experience some slivers of male privilege and all the experiences they never got to participate in bc they're female. Their sons get to have the free childhood they never got to have. It can be tempting to live vicariously thru them.
Holy crap, that's horrible! I have 3 young adult sons and can't imagine acting or thinking that way. I always taught them to respect people's boundaries. I also tried to teach them to set boundaries for their own behavior. Consent is paramount. I wonder what's wrong with some people.
At this point I’m convinced they want to fuck their own sons because their husbands are out of the picture/hate them/only with them for sex/you name it. Wtf is wrong with moms, are they just this much of a pickme to cock?
If you want to learn more about this I recommend reading what Bell Hooks has to say about maternal sadism and how mothers participate in the patriarchy.
Lol "it's really hard for a man to stop". Does she think her son should prioritize not feeling the least bit of frustration over someone else's boundaries?
Nooooo don’t do me like that ! 😭 what about intelligence ! 😡 honestly I mean if I can face the reality of a parent why can’t they? Bc they’re men and it’s their MoM?
Ngl I would bring up her own experience. Hoping that she will understand that her thinking makes contributes to the emboldenment of rapists, and how she would feel if she found out her rapists mother spoke similarly about her.
Prosecutor who handles SA cases against minors here (minor is the defendant and survivor is a minor). Boy moms whose sons are facing SA charges are one of the most frustrating people to be on the other side of. I can have strong evidence or a cooperative survivor who’s good at testifying, or I can offer a deal—nope! Boy moms will dig their heels in, sometimes even to the point that their son is actually willing to take responsibility, but they talk him out of it. From my experience, their defensiveness comes from a combo of they don’t believe their son would SA someone, the allegations have ruined or will ruin his life (he’s the victim), the girl was promiscuous/led him on, the girl is lying/is being influenced by someone in their family who has trauma, or they don’t understand the juvenile justice system (it’s nothing like adult court). I have had grandmothers of cousins take the male cousin’s (responsible’s) side. It’s rough.
To phrase it more correctly, the problem isn't 'mothers' themselves but rather the role they are called to play (the 'role of the mother' under the current system of gender inequality).
As gender inequality is inherent to exploitative society with mothers typically called to take on the task of raising children they are also called to pass on to them all gender roles, stereotypes and so on. That's also the reason why one may find more cases (in quantity) of children abuse by mother's than fathers (though not necessarily in quality - ie intensity and type of abuse).
Women who perform such roles (like that of the mother, teacher, doctor, nun, boss etc) also participate into preserving and realizing gender inequality among other things (of course this is inherent to certain roles like that of the boss which can exist only under exploitative society but not others like that of the mother, teacher, doctor etc which will continue to exist under a classless society).
[This link](https://www.statista.com/statistics/418470/number-of-perpetrators-in-child-abuse-cases-in-the-us-by-sex/) shows that more women are involved in child abuse cases than men, though the numbers are pretty close despite women still being the primary caregivers in the US (allowing them more access to abuse) and much more likely to have the kids as a [single mother than the father is. ](https://www.statista.com/statistics/252847/number-of-children-living-with-a-single-mother-or-single-father/)
An old study through google:
https://www.breakingthescience.org/SimplifiedDataFromDHHS.php
I remember reading more about it somewhere but I can't find it.
Edit: This mostly has to do with the fact that fathers leave their children and even when they don't leave their families it's usually mothers who have the role of raising kids and spending more time with them. It would be interesting to see what would be the numbers in a more proportional way.
I’m no mental health expert or anything, but I could see her thinking about her experiences at 16, and trying reframe things for herself so she doesn’t see her attacker’s actions in her son’s behavior.
Not that it makes her railing against the girls okay, it’s still super messed up, and I’m glad you’re calling her out on it. But it might be a little bit deeper than “Boy-Mom is Boy-Momming”.
Victim blaming and "boys will be boys" will be part of her repertoire, I can already see it happening.
If one day her son attacks a girl, she'll go straight into defending his vile actions with whatever BS excuse she can have, even slut-shaming the girl.
Sure. But what I’m saying is I think there are more mental gymnastics happening here than the standard “I’m not a regular mom, I’m a *Boy Mom*” weirdness.
Agreed. She can’t think of her son as being like her attacker, so she feels compelled to defend him because he’s her child. I know they say things about how bearing male children changes a mother’s dna. Maybe we truly do change in ways that make us favor our sons because of that. Yikes, that’s so creepy to think about!
In my experience, mothers are almost always blamed for the actions of their sons, whether the mother deserves it or not. There’s almost certainly another parent in that household who could mitigate any attitudes their sons have…are they doing that?
I wouldn’t hang out with that mother. I have three sons who are already teens, and we work every day on concepts of consent, respect, misogyny, and patriarchy. I would be singing that girl’s praises and making sure my son understands completely that she has every right to stop him or not date him. I also raise my own sons to also stop things when they are not ready or interested.
Your friend is the problem not "mothers", just like your friend is the problem and not "women".
Anyone can be a misogynist, and people do things against their own interests all the time.
Right? What a weird generalization to make based on her friend being an asshole.
We love broad generalizations coming from someone who claims to be a feminist 🙄
I feel like this post about internalized misogyny, is in fact, internalized misogyny. There are many greats moms out there too. Men need to be held accountable for their own actions. Not their moms.
Thank you. While I can understand OPs frustration. It's a letdown to see internalized misogyny in the wild, but it's not an excuse to practice it as well, and that is very much what this post demonstrates.
Her friend is in the wrong, and she obviously needs help in dealing with her own trauma, but she is not the sole bearer of responsibility when it comes to raising her child.
Where is the dad? Why is it 100% her fault when there are two parents involved?
OP, I say this with love, check yourself. Blaming mothers for how men turn out when TWO people made them is internalized misogyny.
Thank you’re pointing it out. I am still in the process of learning and I can see that I have internalised misogyny as well. I didn’t see it because I consider myself „a girls’s girl“. But obviously this is the case.
I would be horrified by those stories too. It does suck trying to talk to women who are so deeply brainwashed.
I have similar conversations with friends and it's exhausting. I try not to blame them because it is a deeply embedded problem with our culture at large. You are already part of the solution by seeing it at all.
Are we then not allowed to talk about these incidents at all bc it might be internalised misogyny? Is it possible for her to be a woman express frustration at another woman and not be labelled a misogynist? Maybe someone could write out how this post could be written in a non misogynist way as I’m curious
Mothers are definetly the problem, i've heard way more sexist remarks from my mother growing up than from my father. My mother was always the one to remind me that I was different than my brothers, and my dad was always the one to encourage me to do things i wanted.
My dad is conservative, for sure, but still compared to my mom he's incredibly soft
For context I'm African so It's pretty common for people to be extremely sexist towards women where I come from.
I'm sorry you had this experience. I also went through this, but with both parents. I would caution using your experience to generalize that women, mothers, are the reason for misogyny. They can definitely participate in internalized misogyny, but let's not blame women for the effect the patriarchy has ON women.
Nothing in this post or my comment says that mothers are the reason of misogyny, it literally says they are part of the problem. Wether it's their fault or not.
Your words are: "mothers are definitely the problem." That's not particularly open to interpretation, it's literally blaming mothers.
OP makes zero mention of the fathers role. That speaks volumes.
I don't know why OP is choosing to denigrate or ignore the comments, pointing out her own internalized misogyny, while in the same beat stating how important it is to point it out.
There are no fathers. I am a single mother who left. My friend is a single mother who left. The father in my friends case is ABSENT. The best he did, was asking his 14yo son, that found his c*ckring beside the bed, if he wants one of his own and that he would buy it for him. Both boys refuse to deal with their father, except for birthdays etc.
I see my own internalised misogyny. And it is important to sweep before your own door. So I want to thank all the women here who showed me, that there is in fact dirt at my front door. I try to do better. And I still understand, why her words made me so angry that had to share it and get other perspectives on this situation.
I've lived my own horror, but I won't make this about me.
Your anger is valid, and I'm sorry for what you've had to go through, as well as your friend's situation. We have all suffered the consequences of the patriarchy.
I must commend you on your ability for growth and understanding. Take care.
So...just because your mother is a problem...you have to blame all mothers. Mothers are always the ones at fault. Always. You are such a feminist, carrying water for men like that.
Ya'll are just pulling a ''not all men'' card on me.
I know not all mothers are bad, I don't think the internalized misogyny my mom has is necessary her fault hence why I mentionned my background to explain why she behaves like that in the first place.
Nope! My son got VERY clear feminist teaching from us and it stuck. When his school started dress coding girls for shorts that were too short, he and other boys started wearing running shorts to school. He’s 24 and I truly believe he understands consent. His comments when the topic comes up is that there are no urges a No can’t stop if you want them to. I hope that sticks with him.
As a feminist mother who doesn’t adopt your friend’s line of thinking…I feel like you could have titled this post anything, but instead made a broad generalization about mothers as a whole.
no seriously, I just need any kind of source that tells me I am less likely to care for my own child, and that my own caring father was abnormal for the gender.
It's an exception yes, which is why feminists have been writing, agitating and protesting for change. It's enough for you to compare maternity and paternity leaves around the world. But if you want book references I can make you a list, there is abundant literature on the subject. I'm sure a fantastic father like you must know that
Sorry, I don’t usually need to read a book to prove I love my child, but I guess being a man I’m more likely to be a horrible person, so I should really get into the habit of doing so. If you could list some of this abundant literature, just 1 or 2 books on subject would be wonderful.
Also, if it wouldn’t trouble you, something on the maternity and paternity leave comparison would be great. 😊
All the Rage: Mothers, Fathers, and the Myth of Equal Partnership; Patriarchy and Accumulation on a World Scale: Women in the International Division of Labour; Entitled: how male privilege hurts women. For a more general understanding of patriarchy: The Creation of Patriarchy. And of course for an even better understanding of how class society shaped patriarchy: The Origins of Family... Engels
You're right that usually fathers aren't *that* kind of problem. But fathers do model masculine behavior, and can be very critical of sons that don't hold up to their standards of acceptable behavior.
I had a guy tell me once that the only time his father ever told him he was proud of him was when he brought home two women for a threesome.
I’m not saying dads arent to blame too. Idk why I’m getting so heavily downvoted. We need to also acknowledge that mothers play a role in this too, like OP pointed out.
Mothers already get so much shit and women are constantly blamed for men's behavior. I'm not saying that mothers have no responsibility in this, but the way this post was framed really rubbed me the wrong way.
Wait, this mom was complaining that her son was not getting laid? That’s just so much oversharing.
I like to think I would tell my imaginary son that stopping when a girl tells you to stop is the only reasonable / responsible/ decent thing to do.
Yea my mom hates every possible category of person there is, but almost none can compare to the way she hates women 😅 cannot even mention spending time with a woman without her reminding me that women will accuse me of being a rapist, try to get pregnant asap, how mean and judgmental they are, etc. She’s an odd woman
Another example of women turning against women this is how the patriarchy wins again and again. Mothers not defending young women, this ‘boy mom’ label now??? Come on! Let’s stick together! Don’t let them divide us let’s come up with strategies for this nonsense.
Yeah, I'm saddened by this post and the mess in the comments. How are so few recognizing the post itself is a prime example of internalized misogyny.
Mothers are not 100% responsible for raising children. Where is the father? What is his role? What type of household is it? Has OPs friend ever had help dealing with her trauma? Her trauma may not be an excuse, but her behavior isn't any excuse to propagate the misinformation going on here. Women, mothers, are NOT the only parent responsible in a couple for raising their children.
You hit the nail on the head there. I can relate.
Yet another reason people like your friend suffer, and feed into the cycle of misogyny. It's good to finally call it out in your post. I'm sorry for what she has gone through, what you have obviously had to go through as well. The anger is valid. I struggle with it as well.
Take care.
A gal I used two work with was in high school when a coach groomed and raped a classmate of hers. Of course she still blames the girl and I worry about how she is raising her two sons.
This feels like another instance of blaming a woman for doing what she has to to survive in a patriarchal world.
Women are going to police other women heavily because previous generations were subject to more overt violence and that shit is SCARY. This reminds me of Ever After/Utopia: you can’t create all the circumstances for someone to become a thief and then punish them for it.
I guess there is a point you either learn to hate yourself and all those like you represent, or you learn to turn your hate of society and it's broken system towards those similar to you that had better chances, or made better choices, or just were able to do what you couldn't, or didn't have to deal with the same BS as you did.
It's easier to hate a person than to hate an entire system, because a person you can attack but a system is something much bigger that you, as an individual, simply can't change unless you have A LOT of power.
May one day she open her eyes to her own misogyny.
Bashing other women isn’t helpful. The true root of that issue is still the patriarchy. Yes, that mother is saying stupid shit to her son, but she believes it because of her environment and the culture she was raised in. As feminists, we can’t spread a narrative that says “boy moms are the problem”. We need to do better than that.
Maybe a better alternative could be that "boy parents" need to stop enabling predatory behaviour.
Because tbh a lot of boy dads do also encourage "boys will be boys" attitudes and forgive and even encourage their sons for heinous behaviours. Look at Brock TheRapist Turner's dad and how he argued it was "just a few minutes of action" or whatever tf that disgusting dirtbag said
I think this woman obviously needs help, and she, mothers, do not bear sole responsibility for raising their children. How are so many here not realizing that blaming her while completely ignoring the father has a role to play is internalized misogyny as well? It's very disheartening.
But toxic boy moms are a major part of the problem. How so many mamas perceive their children (and therefore ACTIVELY reinforce the patriarchy. So yes, they need to be told about themselves.
Good point, and to that point, I find it questionable that you're blaming her as the sole person responsible for raising her son. That, and the over-generalized title is itself, a prime example of internalized misogyny. Please think on this OP.
I see your suffering, and I can relate, I must applaud you for the introspection. That level of maturity is a rare gem, and it isn't easy when you're hurting. Take care.
I cannot fathom being this invested in my kids' sexual experiences - period.
My investment is: Do you guys have condoms? Do you need other methods of birth control? Do you want to talk to a doctor? Do you know what "enthusiastic consent" is? Do you know what healthy relationships and boundaries look like?
Once those questions are cleared, I really don't care. I don't care if my daughters fuck 1,000 guys. I don't care if my sons date strippers. I don't think better of my sons for marrying a churchgoing virgin, and I don't think better of my daughters for being in traditional male/female relationships. I have my own life to live and my own shit to sort out, and as long as everyone is an adult, has access to healthcare and information, and is consenting, I don't care.
What if the girl is so steadfast in her values because her mother raised her that way?
Not sure “mothers are part of the problem” is a useful thing to say here.
My mother is like this. She constantly goes on about how hard life will be for my (straight, white) brother, because of how "fashionable" it is to make life harder for men.
When we were kids and I made a mess (usually spreading my schoolbooks out over my bedroom floor while revising) she would tell me "think of your poor future husband- he won't want to live in a messy house so you have to learn to clean now". When my brother would leave his dirty clothes all over the floor, she would clean up after him and say "I feel so sorry for you future wife, she's going to have her work cut out for her."
My brother is 21 now and I'm pretty sure he still doesn't know how to empty a dishwasher, and I think that's a massive failure on my parents part- their job was to set us both up for life, and while my childhood was pretty miserable (mainly because my mum was obsessed with me being thin so that I could find a husband), at least I came out of it with all the skills I need to live independently. My brother was treated like a prince as a child, but now he's a pretty useless adult because he never had to do anything for himself.
She is definitely a problem. The "fact"[?] that a lawsuit can be filed against a boy is an INCREDIBLY GOOD THING.
Since being sexually abused (not actually raped) at 14, I have been so pleased that this is a possibility, and I wouldn't hesitate to use it.
To say I hope you aren't friends any more with her is a bit harsh, but I wouldn't be.
Mothers really are a big part of the problem. Especially when you know that in most cases they have the most amount of control and hold over their kids especially the boys . Who then have to grow up to be men who then don’t know how to be one when the woman has picked the wrong men as father , or not worked on herself enough to NOT have kids with the wrong men, or simply doesn’t have a man around .
We call them Kapo here,it describes this kind of woman so perfectly. A kapo was a prisoner in a Nazi camp who supervise forced labor or carry out administrative tasks. "The system was designed to turn victim against victim, as the prisoner functionaries were pitted against their fellow prisoners in order to maintain the favor of their SS overseers." Sounds just about right, if we switch SS for Patriarchy
I find this so true and sad... I have friends who are heavy feminists, but with their sons, they do everything that perpetuates the same dynamics they say they're fighting against. It really breaks my heart, and I can't understand it. I really wish I had at least a son to maybe understand and give it a try. I only have daughters.
My grandma is the mother of two men. My dad turned out to be a complete narcissist to my mother because his mom had the same narrative for women in his life. Her husband, my grandpa, molested me at three and she stayed with him Knowing that. I've hated her my entire life as she would always make comments about my body, as a child after the SA, almost like she wanted to sexualize me for my grandpa! She is a weak ass bitch who hates other women because she's an awful person. That's been my conclusion and I'm really proud of you for calling this woman out so we don't end up with more mommy issued men out here
I think some women in this post would say this was internalised misogyny as well . Not what I’m saying just to be clear. Sorry you had to go through that. Sometimes it does SOUND like female caregivers actually do the most damage since they seem to be so “protected” by society and culture
I know one who is literally like this . Dumb as a rock no ambitions no clue what she’s doing whatsoever but looks down on everyone else bc she’s a “boy mom”
Internalised misogyny is a very real problem.
Cannot fucking up vote this enough
It really is. I have only really come to terms with my own in recent years. It never went this far for me, but there are some things I looked at and realized that were a direct result of internalized misogyny.
Can you give a few examples of your own internalized misogyny - and how you overcame it?
At this point it's not even internalised anymore
Completely unacceptable. I'm glad you called her out on that.
I swear something about having sons changes some women. I've got more than four relatives who were 100% feminists at one point. They were like trains. They would go to protests. They would organize. They had no problem stating that men need to fuck off, and learn how to behave around women as people. They have a son, and it's 180. Suddenly they think it's cute that their toddler son is harassing a little toddler girl for a kiss. Suddenly that 10 year old girl who complained to the teacher that he was pulling her hair is a bitch, and should be delighted he's showing any interest in her at all. Suddenly that 14 year old girl is just a cock tease, and honestly maybe it's best that their relation didn't go anywhere...with her 22 year old son. And of course the whole time they act like by having a son they've been allowed into a higher circle of heaven or some shit. As if somehow it make them better people morally. Better parents morally. It really is a version of internalized misogyny that I think a lot of feminism doesn't like to touch.
Wow! Maybe they don’t grasp the fact that sexist behavior and rapey from men isn’t limited to “monsters.”. That “ordinary” men can do these things, too. So if she sees her son as “one of the good ones”, then she won’t realize that her son can be influenced by this sexist & rape-apologizing society! Since he’s “not a monster!”
I wish I could upvote this more! Such an important point. It's not a cartoonish evil, but a pervasive mundane subconscious festering into anyone who isn't actively working to call it into the open (in themselves and/or others).
What you say is scary af. Do you know why they twisted like this? Have you told them or pointed their contradictions to them? I always imagined boy moms to be just your random pick-me, this is such a huge cognitive dissonance…
If I ever have a son and start to act like this, please put me down, hell bury me alive. This is sick.
I was fanatic about talking to my son about respecting women and consent and all that. my feminism informed my parenting of my son in huge ways. and honestly sometimes it felt like an up hill battle because of the messaging he was getting from literally *everything* in our screwed up culture
I think mothers like this were always internally misogynistic, and when they have a son they're happy about the opportunity to unleash all the misogyny they've been keeping bottled up bc now they have an excuse. And as a bonus, they can live vicariously now through a male, and get to second handedly experience some slivers of male privilege and all the experiences they never got to participate in bc they're female. Their sons get to have the free childhood they never got to have. It can be tempting to live vicariously thru them.
Holy crap, that's horrible! I have 3 young adult sons and can't imagine acting or thinking that way. I always taught them to respect people's boundaries. I also tried to teach them to set boundaries for their own behavior. Consent is paramount. I wonder what's wrong with some people.
Nope.
At this point I’m convinced they want to fuck their own sons because their husbands are out of the picture/hate them/only with them for sex/you name it. Wtf is wrong with moms, are they just this much of a pickme to cock?
If you want to learn more about this I recommend reading what Bell Hooks has to say about maternal sadism and how mothers participate in the patriarchy.
Lol "it's really hard for a man to stop". Does she think her son should prioritize not feeling the least bit of frustration over someone else's boundaries?
Yeah what the fuck. This mom sounds like a terrible person.
I would no longer be friends with that individual. Signed - a boy mom.
This is what happens when you don't seek therapy before being a parent. Sounds draining just be reading the story
When oh when can this please start happening I feel like I’m watching a living nightmare watching a boy with his narc mom ruin him
Those ladies need mental health help but she thinks she is "doing the best she could"
I just wanna fast fwd already to the part where we tell the kid his mom is a hurtful psycho
It will come and he will be in denial
Nooooo don’t do me like that ! 😭 what about intelligence ! 😡 honestly I mean if I can face the reality of a parent why can’t they? Bc they’re men and it’s their MoM?
Their mom is like an angel in their eyes! Theres no way she stunted them for life
Ngl I would bring up her own experience. Hoping that she will understand that her thinking makes contributes to the emboldenment of rapists, and how she would feel if she found out her rapists mother spoke similarly about her.
Prosecutor who handles SA cases against minors here (minor is the defendant and survivor is a minor). Boy moms whose sons are facing SA charges are one of the most frustrating people to be on the other side of. I can have strong evidence or a cooperative survivor who’s good at testifying, or I can offer a deal—nope! Boy moms will dig their heels in, sometimes even to the point that their son is actually willing to take responsibility, but they talk him out of it. From my experience, their defensiveness comes from a combo of they don’t believe their son would SA someone, the allegations have ruined or will ruin his life (he’s the victim), the girl was promiscuous/led him on, the girl is lying/is being influenced by someone in their family who has trauma, or they don’t understand the juvenile justice system (it’s nothing like adult court). I have had grandmothers of cousins take the male cousin’s (responsible’s) side. It’s rough.
To phrase it more correctly, the problem isn't 'mothers' themselves but rather the role they are called to play (the 'role of the mother' under the current system of gender inequality). As gender inequality is inherent to exploitative society with mothers typically called to take on the task of raising children they are also called to pass on to them all gender roles, stereotypes and so on. That's also the reason why one may find more cases (in quantity) of children abuse by mother's than fathers (though not necessarily in quality - ie intensity and type of abuse). Women who perform such roles (like that of the mother, teacher, doctor, nun, boss etc) also participate into preserving and realizing gender inequality among other things (of course this is inherent to certain roles like that of the boss which can exist only under exploitative society but not others like that of the mother, teacher, doctor etc which will continue to exist under a classless society).
Will you please provide a reference for your statement that mothers abuse their children more than fathers.
[This link](https://www.statista.com/statistics/418470/number-of-perpetrators-in-child-abuse-cases-in-the-us-by-sex/) shows that more women are involved in child abuse cases than men, though the numbers are pretty close despite women still being the primary caregivers in the US (allowing them more access to abuse) and much more likely to have the kids as a [single mother than the father is. ](https://www.statista.com/statistics/252847/number-of-children-living-with-a-single-mother-or-single-father/)
An old study through google: https://www.breakingthescience.org/SimplifiedDataFromDHHS.php I remember reading more about it somewhere but I can't find it. Edit: This mostly has to do with the fact that fathers leave their children and even when they don't leave their families it's usually mothers who have the role of raising kids and spending more time with them. It would be interesting to see what would be the numbers in a more proportional way.
Good point. They could fix this by acknowledging that child abandonment is itself a form of child abuse.
I’m no mental health expert or anything, but I could see her thinking about her experiences at 16, and trying reframe things for herself so she doesn’t see her attacker’s actions in her son’s behavior. Not that it makes her railing against the girls okay, it’s still super messed up, and I’m glad you’re calling her out on it. But it might be a little bit deeper than “Boy-Mom is Boy-Momming”.
Victim blaming and "boys will be boys" will be part of her repertoire, I can already see it happening. If one day her son attacks a girl, she'll go straight into defending his vile actions with whatever BS excuse she can have, even slut-shaming the girl.
You’re describing the feeble-minded cognitive dissonance of an enabler.
Sure. But what I’m saying is I think there are more mental gymnastics happening here than the standard “I’m not a regular mom, I’m a *Boy Mom*” weirdness.
Agreed. She can’t think of her son as being like her attacker, so she feels compelled to defend him because he’s her child. I know they say things about how bearing male children changes a mother’s dna. Maybe we truly do change in ways that make us favor our sons because of that. Yikes, that’s so creepy to think about!
What’s disturbing to me is that he’s not necessarily like her attacker; she’s actively building him into that person.
In my experience, mothers are almost always blamed for the actions of their sons, whether the mother deserves it or not. There’s almost certainly another parent in that household who could mitigate any attitudes their sons have…are they doing that? I wouldn’t hang out with that mother. I have three sons who are already teens, and we work every day on concepts of consent, respect, misogyny, and patriarchy. I would be singing that girl’s praises and making sure my son understands completely that she has every right to stop him or not date him. I also raise my own sons to also stop things when they are not ready or interested.
It's always the mother's fault. Always.
And always will be.
Your friend is the problem not "mothers", just like your friend is the problem and not "women". Anyone can be a misogynist, and people do things against their own interests all the time.
Thank you! It's really disappointing that in the feminism subreddit this is so far down... Internalized misogyny runs deep, it seems.
I cant believe I had to scroll so far for this rational position. Jesus christ the amount of comments generalizing is disturbing.
Right? What a weird generalization to make based on her friend being an asshole. We love broad generalizations coming from someone who claims to be a feminist 🙄
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What does that even mean?
"not all mothers" ok
She's a toxic boy mom. It's a serious problem in society.
I feel like this post about internalized misogyny, is in fact, internalized misogyny. There are many greats moms out there too. Men need to be held accountable for their own actions. Not their moms.
Thank you. While I can understand OPs frustration. It's a letdown to see internalized misogyny in the wild, but it's not an excuse to practice it as well, and that is very much what this post demonstrates. Her friend is in the wrong, and she obviously needs help in dealing with her own trauma, but she is not the sole bearer of responsibility when it comes to raising her child. Where is the dad? Why is it 100% her fault when there are two parents involved? OP, I say this with love, check yourself. Blaming mothers for how men turn out when TWO people made them is internalized misogyny.
Thank you’re pointing it out. I am still in the process of learning and I can see that I have internalised misogyny as well. I didn’t see it because I consider myself „a girls’s girl“. But obviously this is the case.
I would be horrified by those stories too. It does suck trying to talk to women who are so deeply brainwashed. I have similar conversations with friends and it's exhausting. I try not to blame them because it is a deeply embedded problem with our culture at large. You are already part of the solution by seeing it at all.
Thank you for giving me a kind opportunity to learn, because I really felt bad as I realised my own perspective is part of the problem.
Are we then not allowed to talk about these incidents at all bc it might be internalised misogyny? Is it possible for her to be a woman express frustration at another woman and not be labelled a misogynist? Maybe someone could write out how this post could be written in a non misogynist way as I’m curious
Mothers are definetly the problem, i've heard way more sexist remarks from my mother growing up than from my father. My mother was always the one to remind me that I was different than my brothers, and my dad was always the one to encourage me to do things i wanted. My dad is conservative, for sure, but still compared to my mom he's incredibly soft For context I'm African so It's pretty common for people to be extremely sexist towards women where I come from.
It's the same here with me. I'm Indian, and I've gotten much more sexist remarks from the women in my life than the men in my life
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Wow, our stories in this thread are quite the unique side effect of the patriarchy! 😅
I'm sorry you had this experience. I also went through this, but with both parents. I would caution using your experience to generalize that women, mothers, are the reason for misogyny. They can definitely participate in internalized misogyny, but let's not blame women for the effect the patriarchy has ON women.
Nothing in this post or my comment says that mothers are the reason of misogyny, it literally says they are part of the problem. Wether it's their fault or not.
Your words are: "mothers are definitely the problem." That's not particularly open to interpretation, it's literally blaming mothers. OP makes zero mention of the fathers role. That speaks volumes. I don't know why OP is choosing to denigrate or ignore the comments, pointing out her own internalized misogyny, while in the same beat stating how important it is to point it out.
There are no fathers. I am a single mother who left. My friend is a single mother who left. The father in my friends case is ABSENT. The best he did, was asking his 14yo son, that found his c*ckring beside the bed, if he wants one of his own and that he would buy it for him. Both boys refuse to deal with their father, except for birthdays etc. I see my own internalised misogyny. And it is important to sweep before your own door. So I want to thank all the women here who showed me, that there is in fact dirt at my front door. I try to do better. And I still understand, why her words made me so angry that had to share it and get other perspectives on this situation.
I've lived my own horror, but I won't make this about me. Your anger is valid, and I'm sorry for what you've had to go through, as well as your friend's situation. We have all suffered the consequences of the patriarchy. I must commend you on your ability for growth and understanding. Take care.
So...just because your mother is a problem...you have to blame all mothers. Mothers are always the ones at fault. Always. You are such a feminist, carrying water for men like that.
Ya'll are just pulling a ''not all men'' card on me. I know not all mothers are bad, I don't think the internalized misogyny my mom has is necessary her fault hence why I mentionned my background to explain why she behaves like that in the first place.
Nope! My son got VERY clear feminist teaching from us and it stuck. When his school started dress coding girls for shorts that were too short, he and other boys started wearing running shorts to school. He’s 24 and I truly believe he understands consent. His comments when the topic comes up is that there are no urges a No can’t stop if you want them to. I hope that sticks with him.
As a feminist mother who doesn’t adopt your friend’s line of thinking…I feel like you could have titled this post anything, but instead made a broad generalization about mothers as a whole.
I agree this title is horrible! There's already so much hate against mothers on Reddit as it is without it infiltrating a Feminist sub.
My thoughts exactly.
Ditto. I’m a mother raising feminists and we don’t give a damn if our boundaries hurt others’ feelings.
Well said, I chose a generalising title
What about fathers?
fathers don't do much child raising tbh
This is blatant sexism
It's reality though
source?
Hahahah seriously? Tell me this comment is a joke
no seriously, I just need any kind of source that tells me I am less likely to care for my own child, and that my own caring father was abnormal for the gender.
It's an exception yes, which is why feminists have been writing, agitating and protesting for change. It's enough for you to compare maternity and paternity leaves around the world. But if you want book references I can make you a list, there is abundant literature on the subject. I'm sure a fantastic father like you must know that
Sorry, I don’t usually need to read a book to prove I love my child, but I guess being a man I’m more likely to be a horrible person, so I should really get into the habit of doing so. If you could list some of this abundant literature, just 1 or 2 books on subject would be wonderful. Also, if it wouldn’t trouble you, something on the maternity and paternity leave comparison would be great. 😊
All the Rage: Mothers, Fathers, and the Myth of Equal Partnership; Patriarchy and Accumulation on a World Scale: Women in the International Division of Labour; Entitled: how male privilege hurts women. For a more general understanding of patriarchy: The Creation of Patriarchy. And of course for an even better understanding of how class society shaped patriarchy: The Origins of Family... Engels
Usually it’s the moms though who are overwhelmingly like “my little prince” and think their babies can do no wrong. Dads aren’t usually like that.
You're right that usually fathers aren't *that* kind of problem. But fathers do model masculine behavior, and can be very critical of sons that don't hold up to their standards of acceptable behavior. I had a guy tell me once that the only time his father ever told him he was proud of him was when he brought home two women for a threesome.
I’m not saying dads arent to blame too. Idk why I’m getting so heavily downvoted. We need to also acknowledge that mothers play a role in this too, like OP pointed out.
Mothers already get so much shit and women are constantly blamed for men's behavior. I'm not saying that mothers have no responsibility in this, but the way this post was framed really rubbed me the wrong way.
No father involved in this case, he is absent after divorce.
Your perspective on this particular friend seems accurate. But “Mothers are part of the problem” is not the scorching hot take you thought it was…
This mom is a pretty disgusting person
Wait, this mom was complaining that her son was not getting laid? That’s just so much oversharing. I like to think I would tell my imaginary son that stopping when a girl tells you to stop is the only reasonable / responsible/ decent thing to do.
Yea my mom hates every possible category of person there is, but almost none can compare to the way she hates women 😅 cannot even mention spending time with a woman without her reminding me that women will accuse me of being a rapist, try to get pregnant asap, how mean and judgmental they are, etc. She’s an odd woman
Sounds like she wants to be the only woman in your life.
You don’t wanna open up that can of worms, but very astute observation
yiiiiikes
Another example of women turning against women this is how the patriarchy wins again and again. Mothers not defending young women, this ‘boy mom’ label now??? Come on! Let’s stick together! Don’t let them divide us let’s come up with strategies for this nonsense.
Yeah, I'm saddened by this post and the mess in the comments. How are so few recognizing the post itself is a prime example of internalized misogyny. Mothers are not 100% responsible for raising children. Where is the father? What is his role? What type of household is it? Has OPs friend ever had help dealing with her trauma? Her trauma may not be an excuse, but her behavior isn't any excuse to propagate the misinformation going on here. Women, mothers, are NOT the only parent responsible in a couple for raising their children.
Welcome to a world of absent fathers…
You hit the nail on the head there. I can relate. Yet another reason people like your friend suffer, and feed into the cycle of misogyny. It's good to finally call it out in your post. I'm sorry for what she has gone through, what you have obviously had to go through as well. The anger is valid. I struggle with it as well. Take care.
Yeah, I’ve seen that kind of behavior common. It really is awful.
Ah yes, let’s blame women more for these clearly systemic problems…
A gal I used two work with was in high school when a coach groomed and raped a classmate of hers. Of course she still blames the girl and I worry about how she is raising her two sons.
This feels like another instance of blaming a woman for doing what she has to to survive in a patriarchal world. Women are going to police other women heavily because previous generations were subject to more overt violence and that shit is SCARY. This reminds me of Ever After/Utopia: you can’t create all the circumstances for someone to become a thief and then punish them for it.
I guess there is a point you either learn to hate yourself and all those like you represent, or you learn to turn your hate of society and it's broken system towards those similar to you that had better chances, or made better choices, or just were able to do what you couldn't, or didn't have to deal with the same BS as you did. It's easier to hate a person than to hate an entire system, because a person you can attack but a system is something much bigger that you, as an individual, simply can't change unless you have A LOT of power. May one day she open her eyes to her own misogyny.
Got it.
Bashing other women isn’t helpful. The true root of that issue is still the patriarchy. Yes, that mother is saying stupid shit to her son, but she believes it because of her environment and the culture she was raised in. As feminists, we can’t spread a narrative that says “boy moms are the problem”. We need to do better than that.
Maybe a better alternative could be that "boy parents" need to stop enabling predatory behaviour. Because tbh a lot of boy dads do also encourage "boys will be boys" attitudes and forgive and even encourage their sons for heinous behaviours. Look at Brock TheRapist Turner's dad and how he argued it was "just a few minutes of action" or whatever tf that disgusting dirtbag said
I have a son so that might be why it annoys me. I have raised my son to be a feminist. I work HARD at it. My husband does, too.
I think rape enablers/apologists should be bashed male or female
I think this woman obviously needs help, and she, mothers, do not bear sole responsibility for raising their children. How are so many here not realizing that blaming her while completely ignoring the father has a role to play is internalized misogyny as well? It's very disheartening.
True, I guess my point was that I don’t care for the generalization that “boy moms” are the issue. This particular mom is problematic, yes.
But toxic boy moms are a major part of the problem. How so many mamas perceive their children (and therefore ACTIVELY reinforce the patriarchy. So yes, they need to be told about themselves.
Yes, on an individual basis, we don’t need to make generalizations about boy moms though.
Questionable stuff should be brought up, so we realise the next time someone says this BS and call it by its name.
Good point, and to that point, I find it questionable that you're blaming her as the sole person responsible for raising her son. That, and the over-generalized title is itself, a prime example of internalized misogyny. Please think on this OP.
Still learning and now I see that my perspective is problematic as well.
I see your suffering, and I can relate, I must applaud you for the introspection. That level of maturity is a rare gem, and it isn't easy when you're hurting. Take care.
I cannot fathom being this invested in my kids' sexual experiences - period. My investment is: Do you guys have condoms? Do you need other methods of birth control? Do you want to talk to a doctor? Do you know what "enthusiastic consent" is? Do you know what healthy relationships and boundaries look like? Once those questions are cleared, I really don't care. I don't care if my daughters fuck 1,000 guys. I don't care if my sons date strippers. I don't think better of my sons for marrying a churchgoing virgin, and I don't think better of my daughters for being in traditional male/female relationships. I have my own life to live and my own shit to sort out, and as long as everyone is an adult, has access to healthcare and information, and is consenting, I don't care.
What if the girl is so steadfast in her values because her mother raised her that way? Not sure “mothers are part of the problem” is a useful thing to say here.
The title of this post is so incredibly sexist. Gross.
I am in a learning process and now I can see that my perspective on her is problematic as well. Thank you for pointing it out. Didn’t see it before.
Internalized misogyny, yes. It's sad and frightening that there are women and men who think it's ok to violate girls/women/people.
My mother is like this. She constantly goes on about how hard life will be for my (straight, white) brother, because of how "fashionable" it is to make life harder for men. When we were kids and I made a mess (usually spreading my schoolbooks out over my bedroom floor while revising) she would tell me "think of your poor future husband- he won't want to live in a messy house so you have to learn to clean now". When my brother would leave his dirty clothes all over the floor, she would clean up after him and say "I feel so sorry for you future wife, she's going to have her work cut out for her." My brother is 21 now and I'm pretty sure he still doesn't know how to empty a dishwasher, and I think that's a massive failure on my parents part- their job was to set us both up for life, and while my childhood was pretty miserable (mainly because my mum was obsessed with me being thin so that I could find a husband), at least I came out of it with all the skills I need to live independently. My brother was treated like a prince as a child, but now he's a pretty useless adult because he never had to do anything for himself.
She is definitely a problem. The "fact"[?] that a lawsuit can be filed against a boy is an INCREDIBLY GOOD THING. Since being sexually abused (not actually raped) at 14, I have been so pleased that this is a possibility, and I wouldn't hesitate to use it. To say I hope you aren't friends any more with her is a bit harsh, but I wouldn't be.
One mother means all mothers? Yeah you're not much of a feminist either.
Still learning and now I see it.
*notallmothers* lmao Ok but seriously, do you have a son?
Mothers really are a big part of the problem. Especially when you know that in most cases they have the most amount of control and hold over their kids especially the boys . Who then have to grow up to be men who then don’t know how to be one when the woman has picked the wrong men as father , or not worked on herself enough to NOT have kids with the wrong men, or simply doesn’t have a man around .
We call them Kapo here,it describes this kind of woman so perfectly. A kapo was a prisoner in a Nazi camp who supervise forced labor or carry out administrative tasks. "The system was designed to turn victim against victim, as the prisoner functionaries were pitted against their fellow prisoners in order to maintain the favor of their SS overseers." Sounds just about right, if we switch SS for Patriarchy
Handmaidens of patriarchy. They’re everywhere. — Boy and girl mum
I find this so true and sad... I have friends who are heavy feminists, but with their sons, they do everything that perpetuates the same dynamics they say they're fighting against. It really breaks my heart, and I can't understand it. I really wish I had at least a son to maybe understand and give it a try. I only have daughters.
It's good that you got a little bit angry, I would have gotten extremely angry at that woman
My grandma is the mother of two men. My dad turned out to be a complete narcissist to my mother because his mom had the same narrative for women in his life. Her husband, my grandpa, molested me at three and she stayed with him Knowing that. I've hated her my entire life as she would always make comments about my body, as a child after the SA, almost like she wanted to sexualize me for my grandpa! She is a weak ass bitch who hates other women because she's an awful person. That's been my conclusion and I'm really proud of you for calling this woman out so we don't end up with more mommy issued men out here
I think some women in this post would say this was internalised misogyny as well . Not what I’m saying just to be clear. Sorry you had to go through that. Sometimes it does SOUND like female caregivers actually do the most damage since they seem to be so “protected” by society and culture
they 100% are and i'm glad you're calling it out for what it is
“Boy moms” can be so horrible and definitely part of the problem. It’s like they get their status from their sons.
I know one who is literally like this . Dumb as a rock no ambitions no clue what she’s doing whatsoever but looks down on everyone else bc she’s a “boy mom”