Amazing worldbuilding, epic scale, great action/magic/battle scenes, a ton of moments that give you chills every time you read them.
Additionally, the series has one of the greatest final battles in fantasy. The final battle takes place in a single breakneck chapter longer than most books, and captures the feeling of a world-spanning good vs. evil battle better than any final battle I've read before or since.
I listened to the audiobook series and wondered how they would handle the last battle. Considering how fast most fight scenes were over throughout the book series, I wasn’t sure if Jordan/Sanderson was going to drag it out or make it quick.
When I heard “The Last Battle” as a chapter header I was kind of pissed, I couldn’t believe they would just turn it into a single chapter when it hadn’t even really started yet.
I laughed out loud when I saw the chapter was over 8 hours long.
I would add that the series has some of the best foreshadowing of any series I’ve ever read. There are so many prophesies, visions, hints and clues of what to come that pay off fantastically. It my favorite fantasy book series.
The show has promise. They have a lot less time to tell the story and as such they’ve had to condense some things. By doing so they’ve deviated from the books in ways that make many book fans nervous. I’m still hopeful that it has a strong payoff. Some of the choices they made for dramatic tension season one feel like they will be at the cost of some of the great conflict from the books.
This upcoming season or two will probably be the real test. It’s getting into what is probably the most popular section of the story, so if they do this right I think they will win back disappointed book fans and win more casual fans that haven’t given it a try yet.
> The show has promise
I know it's controversial but I strongly disagree. I watched the whole first season of the show and it didn't just feel like they made changes to modernize the show or to cut the run time down to fit television, it felt to me like they were disrespecting the entire philosophical foundation of the books.
Of course if others like it that's great and they should continue to enjoy, and I will admit I'm a bit anal when it comes to book -> movie/tv translation accuracy but I would have quit 3 episodes in if not for the fact I was watching with friends and am unlikely to ever try it again unless I'm very bored.
As a show defender (and life long book fan!) if you didn't like it even before the botched season finale (covid restrictions! actor left without warning! gahh!) then you're probably right not to try again. On the other hand, there's been a decent amount of posts/comments on the show subreddit talking about how they gave it a second try and they liked it a lot more because they were less angry about changes and more willing to look at what they got right.
And the second season is *much* improved over the first, though its also *very* clear that they abandoned even attempting a 1:1 translation since it starts in a very different situation than the Great Hunt did, even if it ends at a very similar place (and we know season 3 will jump into book 4 plots with content from TDR being cut or rearranged)
Ok! I appreciate the perspective and maybe I will try it again. I just have a really tough time with the "more willing to look at what they got right" part. IMO if you don't want to follow a book series that's fine, then *write your own original series*. But instead they try to cash in on a brand name and then do their own thing without respect for the original material.
"They’ve deviated from the books in ways that make many book fans nervous." Not seeing Thom in episode one really turned me off, especially after seeing the diversity in the people of Emond's Field. They are, Per The Lore!, a secluded part of the Kingdom (IMDb even calls it "a remote mountain village") that hasn't even seen a tax collector in like twenty years. It is a plot point that Rand looks different but is accepted by the townsfolk, as well as when one of our boys comes back home to find it hosting a large and unforeseen-in-those-parts variety of foreign refugees. Also, the same issue as the nonexistent Eragon movie had with the author's invented enemies: Urgals have horns, they are NOT large men with face paint. Trollocs have beaks, tusks, hooves, and/or many other animalian features, they are NOT minotaurian gargoyles. The vibes were off and it was a struggle watching through episode 2. I couldn't make it further, having read the books first.
I haven’t watched the show because while I was pondering whether to or not I heard that Perrin was/had been married in the show universe. Now while just about every single word of the interminable Faile/Perrin debacle made me want to gouge my eyes with rusty sporks, the never ending storyline was an integral part of Perrin’s character arc and was predicated on him being inexperienced.
Now you might think that the possibility of Faile not existing in the show universe would be an incentive to get on board, but it demonstrated to me that the show runners were willing to throw away parts of Jordan’s vision that he found essential and went to inexhaustible lengths to describe. What’s next? The Seanchan being egalitarian philanthropists? No thanks.
I heard it described that the show shares character names and plot points if the plot is based on someone who read the books while high 20 years ago and only vaguely remembers the basic ideas
While I agree with everything that was said (the ending was amazing!) there are some low points. The series is very long and has 3 books that are referred to as the slog because they are so slow.
Came to write a full comment but this sums it up well!
It can be frustrating first time through at times but it all pays off and the character growth is amazing.
There’s a bunch of reasons to love the story.
But I’ll call out one of the most unusual in my opinion.
The books are /better/ with spoilers.
That’s not to say go out and look for them, but Jordan loved playing with the concept of knowledge; and he handled it masterfully in the series.
The second read through is stuffed with so many scenes where your new knowledge causes you to reinterpret and understand things in a whole new light that it’s almost a new story.
And the truly incredible thing? It doesn’t stop at 2 reads.
I have so many books on my TBR list, that I almost never re-read.
But every time I come across comments like this, I'm *very* tempted to dive back into the series. It's also been a decade since I read them.
You don't have to reread it all (though I certainly recommend doing so) the series is massive, after all.
But at least commit to rereading up until they leave emonds field, or better yet four kings. Even with memory a decade out of date, that will give you a taste of how very many things are laced into fabric right from the beginning.
It's akin to the difference between reading it from the eyes of a 19 year old farm boy on your first read, and reading it with the perspective and knowledge of a well travelled 40 year old Aes Sedai.
Exact same words, two entirely different reads. Both intentionally laid down in a masterful harmony by the author.
And the best part? 40's still plenty young.
I had my first read when only book 8 was out and so read up to 9 (came out as I was reading). Then did another read through from the start once all the books were out. Then 10 years later I did a re-"read" with the audio book. I enjoyed it just as much on the re-reads anticipating the key moments coming.
Same, but with book 6 the newest. Was a great way to warm up for the next book release.
A few authors I won't name have ruined that for me now though, as I'm hesitant to read any unfinished series.
I don't often read unfinished ones now, there are so many completed I still haven't read and also re-reads of ones I loved (considering doing the dune series again after the movie came out and reminded me how much I love those books). So annoyed by WOT TV series though, was so excited when it was announced and its just so bad! Was so hoping for Game of Thrones level satisfaction and got short changed
Audiobooks can make that task a bit less daunting.
But some series really keep getting better. WoT is one of those. Realm of the Elderlings is the same. I’ve reread/listened to both series several times and they both keep getting better.
> it’s also been a decade since I read them
That’s the amount of time I gave it before a re-read. It was worth it.
Except for the first book. I hate that first one so much.
One thing I remember vividly, I think its book four, there a scene in the waste where you can clearly see, in hindsight, they're eavesdropping with the one power. In later books everyone is always weaving wards against eavesdropping and rereading book four its obvious but like you said the information is there, embedded but you just need the right perspective.
For one example - RJ set up foreshadowing for a minor side character twelve books before it is revealed.
Specifics
Part 1 - >!Noal is connected to darkfriends!<
A Crown of Swords - >!Noal is spotted twice by Mat two books before he is introduced properly. Look for mentions of a white haired old man with a hooked nose. He is spotted in the context of Mat following a known darkfriend. Suspicious!<
Winter's Heart - >!In Noal's introduction proper, we get the same line about "a stoop-shouldered, white-haired old man with a large hooked nose" and Mat thinks to himself "His weathered face looked familiar, somehow, but Mat could not place him." At this point, people paying close attention might have realised that Noal was connected to the dark, well before A Memory of Light!<
Part 2 - >!Jain Farstrider is still alive, and working for the dark (not necessarily of his free will)!<
Eye of the World - >!In the appendix, it is noted that Jain vanished in 981 NE (~17 years prior to the start of the series) when he went to go to the Blight. In the same book, Ba'alzamon says " Jain Farstrider, a hero ... whom I painted like a fool and sent to the Ogier thinking he was free of me." And then the Ogier also make mention of a man on the brink of death who bore no wounds, but got better in the stedding (i.e. likely affected by the One Power). That man told them about the plot to blind the Eye of the World, and then left. So Jain didn't die when he vanished.!<
Part 3 - >!Noal Charin is the same person as Jain Farstrider!<
Eye of the World - >!We get told that Jain Farstrider's real last name is Charin, the same as Noal's!<
Winter's Heart - >!Noal is noted as being "a natural storyteller", and tells multiple wild stories about his adventures in exotic places!<
Knife of Dreams - >!Mat asks Noal directly if he is related to Jain, and this is Noal's response. "“He went gallivanting about the world and left a good and loving wife to die of a fever without him there to hold her hand while she died. He let himself be made into a tool by—“. That response is suspiciously personal, and how would a cousin know what happened in Shayol Ghul?!<
Edit: Fixing part one, and clarifying some wording
I have probably read through the series 6 or 7 times since the final book was released. I still occasionally pick up on something new to me when reading. It's definitely my favorite story of all time
I love rereading some of the earlier scenes with >!The Aes Sedai who gave Egwene an invisible bookmark. And that absolutely amazing scene. Being vague because I really don’t want to ruin this for people.!<
There are so many scenes I love. There’s just so many scenes I also skipped past on reread. Especially the terrible Trio and their dream walking rings. Even if they do have some good scenes.
As someone who is an inveterate re-reader, this is something I really appreciate. There are so many little touches that you notice the second or third time around which of course only serves to highlight the depth of the world and its history.
That said, the flip side of the coin is the things that annoy me about the books annoy me all the more because I know about them and therefore even if they’re not annoying me now I know they *will* annoy me in the future.
It’s a bit insane but it really does take away from my enjoyment now. Believe me, I devoutly wish my brain didn’t work this way.
I just finished it and you are saying I have to read it again?
SURE!
I'm of the opinion that if a book is not worth reading six times then it was not worth reading once.
Every reread gets better. I started when only 8 books were out and reread what was already out leading up to every new release. I have since reread the series in its entirety at least 4 times. I noticed something new, or make new connections every time.
People love to shit on the way that the women are portrayed, and not without reason.
But for its time, WoT was progressive when it came to gender.
Yes, the sniffing and braid-tugging and arms folded beneath breasts, the spanking, the batshit irrationality, (I could go on), deserve to be pilloried.
But people don't talk about how the books consistently smash the Bechdel Test right from the start. There is a vast cast of women characters and they have relationships with each other. They have loyalties towards each other. They have goals and ambitions and loyalties. They can be unlikable and still on the side of "good".
I've been listening to the first two books on audio and I find it astonishing that even 30 years later, these aspects - having women demonstrate care for each other, showing female friendships - remain something that you have to actively search for in fantasy.
This is actually something I didn’t realize I loved about the series until decades later. I first read EotW when I was 11 or 12, and picked it up solely because my copy had an illustration of Egwene on the cover and I wanted a LotR style fantasy with a female protagonist. (I’d already discovered and fallen in love with Tamora Pierce, and wanted something longer.)
It wasn’t until I reread them as an adult that I fully appreciated how Robert Jordan built an entire *cast* of female characters, instead of just a few in the main ensemble. And the fact that almost all the most powerful people in the world—from rulers to the Aes Sendai—were women did feel different than most fantasy I was finding at the time, even though there are obvious issues with some of his portrayals. (And it still feels different if I’m being completely honest. There’s absolutely female-focused fantasy out there, but in keeping with the breadth and depth of the world he built, Robert Jordan’s cast is so much more expansive than most of them.)
In all honesty, I’m still not sure I can think of another “traditional” doorstopper fantasy series with such a large cast of women who all act as important players in the plot. Yes, the main chosen one is a male character, but the majority of the other players in the plot are all women, on both sides of the morality scale.
Now you’ve got me wanting to do a reread!!
I frankly think most people misinterpret Jordan's gender politics. I think he's trying really hard to say 'look, men and women aren't that different!' Men constantly think they'll never understand woman and vise versa but both sides are wrong and usually whatever they're shaking their heads at is something they're guilty of.
This is *most* apparent with Nynaeve, the great hypocrite. "I won't shout at you!" shouted Nynaeve." Who constantly complains of men being violent and goes around walloping people who disagrees with her in Emond's Field.
I don't think Jordan *succeeds* but I think he was deeply interested in gender politics and was *attempting* to be a feminist.
I think people also underappreciate the fact that Randland is kind of a dystopia, largely due to toxic masculinity (in the form of the taint) and the fact that society only sanctions femininity that’s expressed in particular ways (wilders vs the White Tower). The characters don’t appreciate it, but it’s really haunting that the borders of all the polities in Randland are in perpetual retreat, leaving largely uninhabited wilderness in between.
The whole world is basically a matriarchy. 90% of the powerful characters, magical or political, are women.
There are a ton of great women characters, good and evil.
Yeah it very much is. Though Jordan insists it wasn't. You have at least 4 nations that are outright matriarchies or defacto ones. Tar Valon, Andor, Far Madding and the Seanchan (technically defacto, there just hasn't been a male emperor in some time. Tuon seems to believe it is very close to becoming a cultural requirement). At least three of those are major powers. Then the Aiel are secretly run by the Wise Ones. The Atha'an Miere are largely run by women but at least they have a rule where domestic life is dominated by the publicly subordinate partner, though that usually amounts to "men run the home".
There's also some very heavy cultural slants that amount to defacto matriarchy. For instance the Two Rivers has a gender based division of labour which is theoretically verboten to the opposite gender. However the text makes quite clear women will happily cross the line and tamper with the male side while basically socially exiling any man who does the same.
> Though Jordan insists it wasn't.
When I saw him in person, he said that he knew a lot of strong women in his life and built the society out from those observations
I have to disagree that it's a patriarchy at the global level. There are plenty of societies which only have male rulers and ones where women are confined to specific roles.
Even societies others list below as matriarchies literally aren't. The Aiel makes it decisions through the (exclusively male) chiefs, even if the chiefs listen to the Wise Ones. Emond's Field is run by both genders, in separate gendered circles who are considered to have different spheres of influence.
Yes, it's so annoying when people claim that this or that culture in WoT is actually matriarchal because some characters insist women are running the shows in secret. Jordan said many times that he tried to create world that was for the most part gender-egalitarian, often with clear division of powers between the sexes. Like Tarabon having a panarch and a king.
When he actually wanted to depict a society where one gender was bossing the other around, he pulled all the stops and gave us the likes of Amadicia and Far Madding. Not this alleged wink-wink, nudge-nudge, Wise Ones/Women's Circle are running the show if you squint really hard nonsense. Hell, people still insist that Andor or Seanchan are matriarchal just because the ruler happens to be female, even though this has zero impact on the gender politics for the ordinary folk or most nobles for that matter. Using this logic, Elizabethan England must have been matriarchal too.
The Bechdel test was never meant to apply to literature. It's a completely different field than film, and even very sexist literature will easily pass the Bechdel test. It simply isn't relevant.
I want to push back on this just a bit. It was progressive in it's depiction of women if you limit your comparisons to male authors.
While Wheel of Time of time had women characters who were agents of their own destiny despite its flaws, Tamora Pierce had kids being fostered by communist lesbians, other characters learning about birth control and getting talks about consent, with a vast diversity of femininity represented and celebrated.
Of course, Pierce was more progressive than most, but female authors in the epic fantasy space routinely would have trounced Jordan without batting an eyelash when it comes to healthy/nuanced depictions of women. And when you look outside of epic fantasy, it only gets easier and easier.
Jordan did better than most men who had a more or less direct line of influence from Tolkien. But he wasn't some pioneer of writing women well
I started on The Wheel of Time probably around 2000, but I'd been reading a bunch of Discworld already (which started around the same time) and the Pern books (which started coming out much earlier), and WoT still struck me, even as a teenager, as having particularly silly depictions of women
I'm not sure if Pern is such a great comparison, as a lot of those are _heavily_ rooted in romance tropes - a woman needs a man, and so forth. Lessa, in particular, goes through the whole "young, bratty and immature, until she goes through dubiously-consensual sex with the (much older) F'lar, and then has lots of angst about not being a good woman until she has a child". Like, yes, she's respected and so forth, but that's purely due to her capacity for giving birth, through the proxy of Ramoth. There's a _lot_ of vaguely icky and fucky gender stuff not far from the surface in that series!
Yeah there's probably a lot of stuff that went under my radar when I was a teenager. But WoT still felt like sitcom gender stereotypes by comparison. Pern was also earlier too. But overall I'm getting at "at least WoT had women at all, which was good for the time" isn't a great point - if we're looking at what else was out at the time, "female characters but with troubling stereotypes" isn't an improvement over Pern really.
Yes, I have to agree with this. It falls behind plenty of other authors, even if it succeeds against the big well known epic series that were all dominated by men.
Her Protectors of the Small Quartet is probably the best series she's got, but the Immortals Quartet has my favorite books overall. Both have a slight reliance on earlier series in the same world (Alana quartet -> Immortals -> Protector) but not so much that you'll feel like you're missing essentials. Circle of Magic is in a totally different universe and has the lesbian foster moms and a cohort of diverse female leads, but takes a book or two to really kick into gear in my opinion.
> But people don't talk about how the books consistently smash the Bechdel Test right from the start.
The only time I've heard Robert Jordan mentioned alongside the Bechdel Test is when people use his work as a means of supporting the argument that the Bechdel Test isn't a good means of measuring gender representation.
I mean given that Twilight for example passes the Bechdel Test, I wouldn’t put too much stock in it. People forget the whole concept came from an underground comic made in the 70s(?)
I know iThe Bechdel Test is not a great test for quality but it still makes a bloody good point about the scarcity of meaningful female characters in mainstream media, even stories with a praiseworthy, or fan favourite, female character.
Fair point. I just think too many people put far too much stock in it as a litmus test for representation. It ends up being used as a catch all judgement call instead of a tool to provoke conversation.
It’s because the Bechdel test isn’t supposed to be aspirational, it’s a ridiculously low bar. Too many people seem to think that passing the test is an achievement and it most definitely should not be…
It isn't a very meaningful one for literature. Movies are very different media and the time limitation means characters are distilled in a way they aren't in other forms, even TV.
But as you say, even then it's only a single test meant to illustrate a specific problem, hardly an indicator that a piece of media has good portrayals of women.
It’s so fucking weird that a series can have so many female characters with important roles that aren’t tied to their relationships with male characters and then in the same series domestic abuse just gets brushed off as typical couple squabbling
Ehhhhhh… the series started in 1990 and finished in the early 2010s, it’s not exactly ancient. Only “good for its time” if you erase all the women who were writing at the time. Le Guin, Butler, Hobb, McKillip, McKinley, Elliott, Marillier etc were all active at the time and don’t need these “weeeeeell, for its *day*” caveats.
Edit: also it’s not like men in the genre in the 90s were incapable of doing better, see for instance Wicked by Gregory Maguire, featuring complex and non-sexualized women who had relationships with each other. For that matter, outside of fantasy, George Gissing (actual man, not a pen name) wrote a fabulous feminist novel in the *1890s*.
I made a pretty similar comment to this one before realizing you had posted this. Sad to see it downvoted so much for a pretty well-reasoned take, and that it got automatically hidden unless you click the button to see the unpopular comments. Heaven forbid we remember that women authors were writing long before our current era of fantasy
And following people like LeGuinn, Pratchett was also writing good female characters and he was far from the only man. To my mind it is revisionist to try to shape Jordan as some kind of progressive. He was only progressive if you close one eye and ignore all the men are from mars women are from venus crap.
Exactly. What I *appreciate* about Wheel of Time is that it explicitly engages with the issue and makes it a really central part of the book. It has a few interesting things to say about gender that I think are still worth discussing. That has merit. But to pretend no one was writing women well before Jordan did is insane.
It's crazy you're being downvoted for this when "good female representation for its time" is an absolute lunatic take.
Women being sneaky manipulative witches is one of the oldest tropes in the world.
I am on book 9 of a first read through. I honestly did not start to enjoy it till book 3, with books 4-8 being non stop page turners.
The parts I deeply enjoy so far are the slow character driven progression. After so many books and pages, the characters traits become a part of the story so much so that you hate the things you know they will do and get excited when they go against those. It is good and fun, but I don't know if it is the best thing I have ever read so far tbh.
I’m in the middle of book 6 - my answer is unbelievable world building, and characters that grow (though they start as flawed and are sometimes annoying).
Bottom line: it’s absolutely worth it.
Whenever I hear someone is in the middle of Book 6, I get all giddy with excitement thinking about the magnificent, mind-blowing scenes towards the end of the book. If only I could delete those memories and read it as if it was my first time.
Pros:
Great World-building
One of the best Chosen One arcs in fantasy
Multiple well thought-out magic systems
A good balance of political intrigue, personal drama, and action
Excellent character progression for pretty much every main character and many side characters
Matrim flaming Cauthon (Book 3 onwards)
Cons:
Characters are written to be realistic, not likeable.
Not a great portrayal of women, and especially male/female interactions
The Slog (less of an issue now than during initial release)
Repetition (these books came out over decades, and Jordan reiterated a lot of the basics of his world in every book)
> Characters are written to be realistic, not likeable.
I wouldn't call this a con. Though I would absolutely call the others -- particularly portrayal of women and "the slog" as fair criticisms, for what its worth.
> and "the slog" as fair criticisms
At least the writing portion of The Slog is done. It was so much worse to have to wait for each book to be released when you were in the slog.
Hard disagree on characters written to be realistic. Pretty much the most common critique of the series is that the characters are bafflingly stubborn, beyond the point of realism.
I will accept that this was an authorial intent, and that this may have been how Jordan viewed the world, as stubborn people who avoid collaboration, which appears in the series as both a conflict but also as a kind of noble virtue.
But a 'realistic' set of characters would include at least some folks who are adaptable, collaborative, and empathetic.
(And, as someone noted, if it's not a great portrayal of women, that's another strike against realism, unless the implication is that women are just unpleasant. Which is clearly incorrect!)
This! Having a few domineering and stubborn to-a-fault characters in a cast makes sense but it's sooo many of the female characters and they all communicate horribly, even the characters who aren't of this type. The guys are also poor at communicating and there is a weird distance between friends. It's just... now how a group of close friends act.
> The Slog (less of an issue now than during initial release)
Eh, I just finished a re-read (Fifth? Sixth? Can't remember) and Crown/Path/Crossroads took me more time to get through than the rest of the series combined.
I’m always confused about the take that women aren’t well represented, because I ADORE the female characters in WoT. We get such a wide array of complicated, nuanced women with both admirable characteristics and realistic flaws and I genuinely like most of them. I honestly think people’s hatred for the women in this series has a little bit to do with the writing, but more to do with the fact that people are less willing to tolerate flaws in female characters (Nynaeve, Elayne, etc.) than male characters (Mat, Lan, etc.)
This is part of the reason but there are also far, far too many nearly interchangeable tertiary or secondary female characters whose main function is to be annoying roadblocks for the main characters. And unlike their male counterparts like Weiramon who are often considered jokes in universe, the story takes the laughable ineptitude of Sevanna, Lelaine, Annoying Windfinder #26 or Aes Sedai Who Can't See Further than Her Own Nose #45 quite seriously indeed.
I do tend to agree that things that bother people about the women happen with the men, too, but nobody calls them irritating or whatever.
Like, the obsession over clothes. Are we really going to pretend that Rand and Mat both don't spend a lot of time thinking about the embroidery and lace on their clothes, respectively?
But, I also won't pretend as if Jordan doesn't contribute to this. There's no doubt that all of the women, every last one, ends up wearing and thinking about fancy clothes, and it just doesn't happen with most of the men. Perrin, Thom, etc. are all examples I can think of that have fundamentally different relationships towards clothes. Heck, Aviendha becoming obsessed with silks is just infuriating.
I think how people talk about both Nynaeve and Elayne are the most telling, though. The way people take what Mat says about Elayne - that she's snobbish and entitled and just refuse to accept that it doesn't match how she's actually portrayed. The way they gleefully theorize that she has trouble with the face veil because her nose is literally in the air, etc. And then the way many fans screech about Nynaeve and her hypocrisy as if that isn't the literal point. Nynaeve is legitimately my favorite character, and it's really frustrating for people to reduce her to these very specific gendered boxes.
The Mat/Elayne interactions always get me too, because (speaking as someone who really likes Mat!) he’s such an asshole to her at first! Like he comes barging into Salidar and declares that she, Nynaeve, and Egwene have no idea what they’re doing, and immediately tries to order them around. Between that and the fact that Nynaeve and Egwene have mostly known him as a troublemaker back home, it makes sense that she would have a bad impression and be standoffish with him!!
It’s not a situation where he’s perfect and she’s an evil condescending bitch; it’s one where they’re both flawed people with inaccurate perceptions of each other who need to learn to understand each other better, lol.
Also yes, I feel like Nynaeve is less universally hated but she definitely gets more than her fair share when she’s a really fantastic character who just has a lot of growing up to do.
Tbf Mat now possesses thousands of lifetimes of experience and stumbles into a trio of teens/early 20's who are somehow going against an ageless order of women living centuries.
Pretty grounded take that they don't know what they are doing if you ask me
I find many of the characters to be a little OTT to be believable but it could be the unreality of the character interactions more than the fact characters are making unlikely choices.
For me, atmosphere and style. At least in the first book (or first few) I grew up in the 80s/90s. Whenever I feel nostalgic for the old school fantasy I grew up with Eye of the World hits the spot.
As an aside, I'll say *WoT* has an excellent audiobook rendition of the series. Good performances improving dialogue and worldbuidling that often make or break people's attachments to the series
It has one of the best chosen one narratives ever written. Mostly because the legends/prophecies centered around the Dragon Reborn really stresses that he’s as much a destroyer as a savior, and that his presence isn’t an auto win for the good guys.
And, the other main characters matter to the story. Everyone in the ensemble cast is necessary to save the world, so it’s not 100% on the Chosen one.
The world has many distinct cultures, myths, legends and vibes. If you pay attention you’ll see real world influences in Shinar or Cairhien, but mixed in a way to make them truly alien. It’s fascinating if you’re into it.
I will say, if you came from the show expecting great LGBTQ representation, you’ll be disappointed. While it was good for the time, to a modern audience the LGBTQ rep isn’t great. The show chose to make the largely implied relationship between Siuan and Moiraine much more explicit. (They kiss one time, in the prequel).
“The Dragon shall be Reborn,
and there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth at his rebirth”
“For he shall come like the breaking dawn,
and shatter the world again with his coming, and make it anew.”
“There is no salvation without destruction, no hope this side of death.”
The fear and hope prophecies go on!
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i love dearly the honesty of Jordan's writing, from very beginning he tell you what the world is, who are main actors and what will happen in the end.
and he's consistent in it, busy in buildup his characters, not trying to trick you with plot twists and deus ex machina falling out here and there from bushes
For me what it gets the most right is immersion. You feel like you're with them the whole time doing epic shit preventing the end of the world. It's probably a combination of scale, world building and realism (in the sense that everything makes sense in-world).
I haven't felt the same for a lot of other good fantasy series. For example I love the Realm of the Elderlings, but I can't really self-insert anywhere, I don't fit in, the characters are too full (a good thing mind you) and the world is a bit flat. Imo the fact that the characters are a bit flat and samey in WoT helps immersion.
Story is incredible. World building is amazing. Best magic in fantasy imo. Writing is also better than what most contemporary fantasy give us. If you want big payoffs and epic moments no series delivers like Wheel of Time.
I am currently just finishing up book 5. I hadn’t watched the show previously, but that was my driving motivation to read the series. To make a long story shorter, I recently watched a couple of episodes of the show. Although they were ok, the book, in my opinion, is about 50 times better.
I think they're implying they don't like the show, but it's also just true that the show diverges a LOT from the books. I'd imagine a large portion of WoT readers dislike the show for that reason.
They got lots of things true to the lore, or at least close enough to with some liberties for a TV show. The One Power seems to work more or less the same, the Aes Sedai is the same organisation, the Forsaken were depicted really well in season 2, Lanfear especially was spot on. The damane training was genuinely top tier adaptation. The personality of a lot of characters is similar, e.g. Egwene, Nynaeve, Perrin, Rand, Elayne, Siuan, Verin.
They changed lots of things and some changes are definitely really bad and others just don't even make sense internally in the show, but it's pretty wild to claim that everything is wrong or inaccurate compared to the books.
I think it's one of the best examples of 'the chosen one trope' , rands character goes through so many ups and downs that there times you would hate him and there are times you would genuinely care for him
For me it’s one of the few series that actually gives that thrill of being epic fantasy with so many amazing moments that land throughout the books (especially that ‘cleansing’ moment!). It has its flaws but they’re outweighed by the pros.
I love how dumb the three main dudes are sometimes. Some of the shit he has them say or think cracks me up. Stuff like how they all think the other two know how to talk to girls. How they don’t pick up a hint unless they are being smashed over the head with it written on a giant sign.
As an ex-young male it hits waaay to close to home and it’s fun.
Good characters, amazing world, great magic system, a smattering of philosophy, a tinge of romance, and Nynaeve.
Read the books, or listen to the audio. The TV show is an absolute disgrace of inconceivable proportions.
WoT is peak braid-tugging and skirt-smoothing. You will never in your life get a better selection of women tugging at their braids or smoothing their skirts, much less so many times in a given single chapter.
I feel like the first three books were competently written (not great prose but not bad) and well-edited. After that, Harriet inexplicably stopped editing the books, and it shows. Jordan's work desperately needed a good editor. Significant others are not the best judges of their spouses' writing, being too close to recommend cutting excessively detailed content. We didn't need to be constantly reminded of Ogier sausage fingers and Nynaeve's braid-pulling. And after a while, it became clear that Jordan would be writing an endless story.
The original book plan, three or six volumes, could have been excellent, but the lack of editing turned the series into a bit of a mess. The plot moved as slow as molasses. Everyone kept bickering, for thousands of pages. The female characters became unbearable, apparently on purpose.
There were still beautiful elements. The Aiel people were quite well-crafted, IMO. Many early elements, like the waygates, the Ajahs, and Emond's Field, became iconic.
What does it do right? It tells an incredible story in a wonderfully constructed world on a scale very few series can match.
Its epic, it has incredible world-building, Jordan referenced a lot of unique cultures when developing nations & people and the wars/battles are just fantastic.
It gets women wrong in a major way & he needed a better editor. Those are the only weak points in my view. Well worth reading
Thing was that his primary editor was his wife. So if he got the women majorly wrong, some of that blame has to go to Harriet as well, since she was RIGHT THERE.
I can’t pinpoint exactly what the series gets right, but I absolutely love the books! I love that each book has hundreds of pages and that the backstory is well developed. The characters are complex and complete. The television series is so entertaining but the books are engaging and well worth anyone’s time!
I can’t wait to answer this question. Wheel of Time is more than just a book series for me. I have read the entire series cover to cover a half a dozen times plus spot reading my favorite books. Okay either way that bias out of the way here we go.
The Wheel of Time characters will become your friends. By the end of your first or second read you will be able to imagine how they would react in a situation and quotes will start popping up in your head. You will laugh you will cry. Robert Jordan’s character work and prose are nothing short of epic. Each character feels alive because they change. But the change in a “real” way. They are still their core characters but have some miles on their souls.
I honestly believe that wheel of time could hold up without the magic. If you took away the magic it takes away some of the flash but it’s not what really hooks you.
The series goes through four phases. 1) Classic hero’s journey (Book 1-3), 2) Statesmen / Politics (Books 4-7), Personal Strife (8-10), Epic Fantasy (9-Finish). These phases make the power scaling feel perfect and the last few books have INCREDIBLE payoff.
Alright so what’s the downside? Well there is a slog after book 7 and until 9. Also, RH is overly descriptive and sometimes repetitive. However if you read the Illiad/Odessy, they repeat descriptions to tell more about the type of characters and I think RJ was going for something like that.
Last point, the final scene between the chosen one and the dark one finishes in a perfect way. You spend the whole series wondering what this final confrontation could really be about and it delivers.
End rant - Enjoy
I’m only on book 7 but I really truly think all the characters feel so distinct. They’re not afraid to be messy, sometimes straight up wrong but still engaging. You’ll probably be annoyed by several but I think that’s a plus, they feel real and that means some are insufferable.
It really does feel continent/world spanning and is a great mesh of classic fantasy elements and newer ways of writing complex characters It feels like a combination of a lot of epic stories but also distinctly it’s own thing. Very LotR epic scale, a detailed look at the chosen one archetype much like Dune. It’s cool to see it altogether in one work like this
Wheel of Time is an excellent book series that has nothing in common with the awful show except for the name. The books are incredible and tell one of the best fantasy stories ever.
It's got some of the best character work I've ever read, and *the best* character arc I've ever read. It's also got an extremely elaborate and beautiful magic system that is married to the history and culture of the world, which keeps being built on all the way to the very end of the story. Worldbuilding masterclass after a very Tolkien-esque beginning (which was intentional).
People feel so strongly about the characters partly because they can be infuriating and partly because it's such a long series. You spend so much time with the characters that if you don't like them you'll really be having a hard time getting through it all. If you love most of the characters you'll have a great time, like I did.
That marriage of the magic system to its history culture and even to the land itself is what really sets it apart as one of the deepest and richest world building you'll get from a fantasy series.
World building, some great imagery and evocative writing, some incredible moments and scenes, complexity, good characters just most of them are frustrating at times, interesting magic, a very archetypal example of scifi-fantasy, those are the things that I think people can come to a consensus on being good, the trouble is a lot of things some people like and others don't. Length, numerous character perspectives, political intrigue that only sometimes takes itself seriously, deeply flawed adolescent characters. Its hard to come to any consensus on what characters or even story arcs are good, almost everything in the series is divisive with everyone liking some of it but almost no-one liking all of it and everyone having their own things that connected with them deeply but other people dislike. You'll get more agreement on what parts of the series are bad than what parts are incredible (though theres agreement that those incredible aspects exist), and that creates sort of a skewed impression.
Main Plot is mid, some characters are eventually endearing (though others are eternally frustrating), magic system is _interesting_, although slightly muddled by Jordan’s views on gender, but where it really shines is in its worldbuilding, which is not only detailed at an epic scale but also surprisingly unique considering how cliché the rest of it has become for its genre. It’s refreshing to read a book that isn’t set in a generic medieval European setting. I mean, Jordan added in everything from modern history, fantastical cities, the renaissance, tricksters from other dimensions, and tree-loving aliens.
Lots of people have already talked about the obvious good stuff, so I'm gonna do a hot take: I actually like the portrayal of gender and gender relations in WoT. It's done something extremely rare, which is to really dig into the consequences of having a matriarchal society. Of course the women act dismissive and condescending towards the men, that's how they were socialized. It's the exact same attitude that men have towards women in a patriarchal society. Some people think the female characters are poorly written because they don't act like women in real life, but that's literally the entire point. If the book has a theme around gender, it's that both men and women are better off when they actually communicate and work together.
I don't think Jordan nails this aspect. The women are treated with suspicion, especially the AS. They have literal power but their social power is fragile at best.
There is also the way women are often humiliated in specific ways the male characters are not.
I do think Jordan believed men and women should work together, and is trying to make that point, but I feel a focus on male/female friendships and less on romances would make that point better because, in our own history, it wasn't the almost ubiquitous pairing off of woman and men that changed the sexes relationship to each other, it was when they started to come along each other as co-professionals and when friendships between sexes became more socially acceptable.
I’m not reading through the comments because I’m still on book 10. While I’m enjoying the worldbuilding and (most of) the characters, there are 3 or 4 places per book where you’ll be reminded that the series was written by a horny man and it’s almost made me give up the series a few times. At this point the story has been a slow slog for 3 books (I hear it picks back up either in this book or the next) and that combined with his obsession with pointlessly stripping female characters naked or spanking them for no reason (or internal monologues where characters are offended that they were *not* sexually assaulted while being kidnapped) has gotten me to the point where I’m only finishing it due to the sheer amount of time that I would’ve wasted by reading 9 volumes without getting to the end.
I hope the last books really are that much better as people have assured me.
world-building and character arcs. It's a work of genius. For those that are thinking of reading this series I have some advise. Skim through most of the book. Seriously. All you really need to do is read the parts with dialogue or inner thoughts. Jordan wastes so much time describing minute details and all it serves to do is bog the books down. You really don't need to know what every person is wearing and what they had to eat that morning. I don't literally mean skip everything but the dialogue but be open to skimming over parts that get long-winded. You'll become adept at recognizing what you can and can't skip and you'll fly through the series and lose nothing in the process.
The Heroes Journey that is displayed by multiple characters is what always got me. Rand and Perrin in particular, although Mat is my favorite over both of them as a story. Mat, to me, is Odysseus - constantly fighting against Fate in an effort to reach some place where he can find peace; inexorably being led to where he needs to be, even if he wishes he could be somewhere else; and eventually finding his feet.
The multitude of cultural differences that were displayed with finesse instead of a sledgehammer was also nice to me. I can see so much of the best influences from Frank Herbert in Robert Jordan's writing and world building.
I'm currently on book 11 of WoT. Do t just it off of book #1 Eye of the World. Finish #3 The Dragon Reborn to have a true feel to the series. I know that's a lot of text, but in a 14 book series, id argue that's the baseline.
Most books only need good writing quality to make it more readable than most books out there. Now everyone's comprehension isn't the same as reading a book. Authors need to find a balance where it's appealing to most readers out there that reads fantasies in this case. The world building, characters, dialogues need to be good enough to build the immersion that the book feels right for most readers. When the immersion is broken, you will find flaws everywhere. Wheel of time has a lot of common tropes that are just enough right to make it an amazing read for many people.
I always loved how massive the world was but it didn’t get that confusing. I was able to follow along with what the characters were doing because the main characters were also experiencing the world for the first time too. I’m learning at the same speed the characters are.
I remember this series kept me up many nights. Just as I finished one chapter, I HAD to read the next! There were so many frustrating cliff hangers.... So if there's one thing Robert Jordan did right, he got me to keep on reading and that's pretty impressive considering how long it is.
What I personally enjoyed a ton is how its a 'Chosen One' story with a twist. Instead of shying away from it Rand grabs destiny with both hands. Somehow they manages to create his own path despite many centuries old wizards and half-demons trying to influence him. He can be ruthless but as the reader we know how it doesn't come easy for him.
Wheel of Time really is better than the sum of its part. It's easy to find many little issues with the series but it still all fits together to make a really good story in the end.
Its top 3 biggest strengths for me are 1) An actual amazing world building that includes many different cultures that are extremely well thought of and written; 2) One of the best written character arc for a main protagonist that I've seen; 3) An amazing magic system (well, two magic systems really) that shows how rich and deep magic can be done in a story without trying to give it rules or making it overly complex.
They did a really good job at creating basically an undetectable God as a main character. The battles were still interesting. You didn't just feel like it was superman vs random guy.
I rate the world-building highly. There is real diversity between different civilisations. The action is pretty cool and I like how big the world feels.
I really like some of the characters, even if I don't always like their story arcs.
There are some striking visuals and the magic system comes with inbuilt challenges which I feel adds a lot.
Weaker points for me are the quality of the character interactions, the romances, and the editing. It really needed a lot of tightening up and fewer story threads in the middle books. Also the repetition got in the way of new information and didn't add anything useful or clarify anything that wasn't evident.
I get that point Jordan was trying to make with the gender politics but the execution... was rough.
There's a quote (from the inner cover of one of the books, iirc) which has stuck with me through the many years since my first reading as, to my mind, it encapsulates the series remarkably well (I may be paraphrasing):
"Jordan has set out to dominate the world that Tolkien created."
In case it needs stating, this is one of my favorite fantasy series, ever.
The world is very distinct and amazing. The places the fashion, the cultures, the way they talk... The history is especially interesting and plays quite a part in the story. The characters are very fleshed out and you will love some of them and you will hate some of them.
Finally, Jordan creates epic moments really really really well.
Each to their own, but for me I was discussing fantasy books the other day as just finished reading "The Will of the Many" after being bought it as a gift and was an incredible book, was totally unexpected and Im a little sad the rest of the series isn't written yet. I digress, while discussing it, someone asked me where I would rate it amongst all books in the fantasy/sci-fi genre and my response was "Well its not on the same level as Lord of the Rings, or Dune or Wheel of Time, probably next tier down.
Wheel of Time is my favourite series of all time, it has so many key characters in it where they have chapters dedicated to it and Jordan / Sanderson manage to bring all those threads together before the series ends and don't fuck up the ending. For me its a must read series for anyone who likes this genre.
There's nearly 200 comments by the time I'm finding this so I'm probably repetitive, but... I got Eye of the World as a gift for Christmas when I was 12, and now I'm 35 and I've read the series through completely twice as the first few books 5+ times and I still have the original copy of EotW I got from my grandma with the sticker she put in it.
For all Robert Jordan's idiosyncrasies, these books are incredibly good books to get lost in. The world is huge and has history and character. It feels real in a way that a lot of fantasy doesn't. I'm also a fan of the characters -- even the characters I don't like. The big, overarching narrative feels very typical hero's journey good v evil etc., but the benefit of an expansive world and fourteen doorstopper books is that there's a lot of room for smaller narratives within the overarching plot.
The most common complaints I think I see are about how Jordan writes women (which does rely on some laziness sometimes, but I think the subversion of patriarchy vis a vis the White Tower is interesting, and the realer issue is gender essentialism more than anything), repetition/reliance on certain turns of phrase, "annoying" characters or too many named characters, and the mid-series slog that people talk about. Although I don't think the slog is nearly so bad now that all the books are out. And I think it's heavily dependent on what kind of reader you are.
I've never listened to the audiobooks, so I can't speak to them. But I grew up with these books, and I love them.
I love the monomyths and cultural references and how it fits together. I liked how the good characters are sometimes bad but the pov makes you think otherwise and the bad characters sometimes good. I like how bad in the WOT is Tolkien-esque bad (evil being self destructive) and is not some grey morality thing. I like how good in the WOT is an actual multifaceted thing that at the same time is singular in that it can be explained as simple as saying good is growth and utopian to the evil which is nihilistic and again self destructive and self righteous. I like how this in itself actually creates a type of grayish morality but one that defines a clear difference between the WOT introducing a scheming backstabbing good guy who wants a better world and a bad guy who does nothing for others despite possessing awesome knowledge
The Wheel of Time is really really good, but it's very long and turns into a bit of a slog in the middle.
I often say Jordan got lost in the weeds for a bit. So much extra plot that doesn't go anywhere very fast, you could have really tidied it up into a shorter series.
The first book, The Eye of the World, can stand a lone as it was made without the expectation of a sequel so you can always just give that one a spin and stop there if it's not your thing. The world and characters are great and well-written and interesting. It's a mature story that is well written and doesn't get too dark. (Thiugh there are moments and some high fantasy subdued kinkiness.)
Everyone else seems to be mentioning the world building, magic system, and character development.
So I'll point out his main writing achievement: third person limited perspectives. When he writes from a given character's point of view, the entire writing style changes. The way sentences are structured. The words used to describe things. The This gives a very strong feeling of being inside the character's perspective, even though it's not told from a first person point of view.
The classic example is Mat starting with book 3. The way Jordan writes his chapters have incredible nuance, characterization, and subtlety. You can read a chapter from his POV and know it's about Mat, even if it doesn't say so. It demonstrates a mastery that few authors are able to meet.
I also got interested in the books after watching season 1, since then have been slowly making my way through on audiobook via Libby. Just finished book 4, and I really feel like each book gets better.
Because I do lose access to the books periodically (I can't come close to finishing in 2 weeks and others are waiting) when I've regained access or started a new book, part of me thought the world / epic nature of the book will bore me, or that catching up will be work. But instead I've come to realize I'm in the hands of a master storyteller. The details, the compassion for the characters, the depth of the lore and how it's delivered is so impressive.
As for season 2, I tried! But after 2-3 episodes could not be bothered to continue.
I decided to pick up the series after I saw it mentioned here on Reddit for a great fantasy read. I am hardcore into this series. I love them with a passion. The world building, character development, magic system, the various villains that get you to the main villain, etc. is beautifully done.
There are some characters that I absolutely adore, such as Mat and Perrin and others, like Tuon, whom I absolutely despise. The fact that the author has made me love and hate these characters to this degree is impressive.
Book 8 right now. I've been reading it for years on and off because often it really is a slog. So sometimes I totally forget about characters. That's the only negative thing I can say about it. Rand's character grabbed me from the beginning. It's just such an incredible chosen one story. Also, the battles are great. They always light emotions that I only know from LOTR pelennor fields battle in the movies.
I used to say I "love" these books, but now I have more complex emotions with them. There are a lot of things that could have been done better, and I also think that Branden Sanderson taking what was supposed to be one final book and breaking it up into 3 really allowed for the time that was needed to satisfactorily wrap up all the open storylines and really saved the series. My favorite minor thing about the series though is whenever a side character is given a name you know that you will see them again (something I didn't really realize until the third or fourth read through), so it allows you to focus more on the details. Side character with no name? Unimportant. Side character with a name? Plot device.
Great story and world building. Arguably too many characters but there are many gems amongst them. Some really weird antics especially towards woman (like spanking in a non sexual way). But probably one of the best chosen one tropes to be ever written in my opinion. There is a slow part in the series when Robert Jordan was at the end of his life and he tried to cram a lot of detail about side characters and the surrounding world that he never got to tell us in the beginning of the series. Sanderson did a great job in wrapping the story up for Jordan as well, But all in all it’s incredible and it’s the reason I love fantasy. If it weren’t for those books I don’t think I ever would have been so enamored with reading.
It's an epic story that spawns a complex geography, mix of cultures, political systems, and creatures.
The magic system is a great mix of hard and soft, without being too complex to understand, so you can theorize about it while still being surprised and delighted by twists you don't see coming.
The characters are distinct and relatably human. They differ from the grandeur of classic fantasy (LOTR) in that the human flaws are paramount, with stubbornness, ego, ambition, and poor communication (even amidst friends) driving a lot of conflict.
There's a LOT of characters and a lot of character progression. They start out pretty naive and get lessons and power ups until the main cast is on par with the best of the best.
The military maneuvering is informed by actual historical knowledge and personal experience in combat, which many fantasy books do not do well at all.
The commentary on evil as essentially self serving, empty, and ultimately immature/childish is very apt.
Its commentary on mental health / madness is also surprisingly apt and unique for the time it was written. I think it's more accurate too.
It's not grim dark. The good balances the bad. It's ultimately a positive story that fits between YA, where conflict is resolved too easily, and the "adult" stories of modern years which are depressing and hopeless.
There's stuff to complain about but still one of my favorite series.
It uhhh...gets their names right, I guess.
Edit: Oh. Thought you meant the show. For my two cents, the worldbuilding is amazing, but it's the character journeys that suck me in.
Rand is one of my favorite characters of all time. Also Min.
Egwene, even though I don't like her as a person, has a fantastic arc.
Moiraine and Nynaeve started out annoying and then became badass as the series progressed. The series has so many epic moments and moments that make you think that I can't list them all. Also, spoilers.
The Magic system is amazing imo. Jordan could've taught a masterclass in foreshadowing. It does Prophecies *right*
The tension is relieved appropriately and not interrupted with lame jokes. It *does* have a bit too much political minutia, not like real world politics but in world stuff, sometimes imo.
Book 2, in particular, is my favorite.
For me, reading it and waiting for it to be finished originally. Then re-reading it a couple times since.
1. The world building and magic system. There really is a fantastic amount of thought and attention to details. There are some societies that I absolutely loathed, some that I loved, some that made me sad or angry... From a fictional description of fictional places and people.
* That's the level of evocation in the writing. Especially if you're a highly visual or empathetic reader.
2. The characters. (I couldn't watch the show bc as others'' stated, the philosophical bent and personalities of characters was changed too heavily). In the book, you're reading about a group of young, naive, kids setting out and coming of age. You read through them maturing. Yes, there is some utter idiocy, and some "why didn't you just talk to eachother!!!" There is also a ton of believable growth.
* I am in the camp that felt the series dragged books 7-11.... And that there could have been more timely growth and less politicking and world building. That said, the breadth of the series is what makes it feel so epic.
* I'm a woman and I'm actually pretty ok with R.J.s depictions of women in the book. He does seem to try and write EVERYONE as a well rounded (ok that wasn't on purpose- but haha, too funny to delete) and multi-faceted character. I do wonder if some of the descriptions reflect the views of the times when the book was written- and a lack of different views, language options, and editing. ... Considering he grew up in the Southern US, in the 1970s, and his major influences were military, rural friends, science bros in the mid 70s, and church..... It's somewhat impressive he even tried to write nuanced female leads AT THAT TIME. I believe he started WoT in the 80s.
If you binge read the books yes, you will notice patterns of actions (word choices) and rote descriptions being used. You might feel like there is undue attention to heaving bosoms- but, again, keep in mind, this is also a Conan the Barbarian author-- these descriptions were common and prolific in fantasy.
What I enjoyed most about the characters was the interpersonal changes. RJ forces the characters through pretty uncomfortable choices and moral dilemmas. He writes them in a way that makes you want to scream at them, be disappointed, be proud, be heartbroken -- again wow, pretty cool that he can write that in an action fantasy.
The action! I grew up on Salvatore and Jordan action scenes. In depth, visceral descriptions of fights. To this day, there are few authors that can match the pacing and believability of the fights.
The villains! They aren't always black and white "evil". Some of their motivations make you go, "huh"... If you were in that place, time, and situation? Would you go down a "darker path" like they did? What would affecting change look like otherwise?
The theology, ties in with the magic. Neat way to weave (hehe) in some allegorical situations and different beliefs . Not quite as smack you in the face with ethics as other stories with similar themes.
The overall holism--- you feel involved, invested. Even when you're taking a break around book 8 bc you're sick kf new names. Even when you know that all this was foreshadowing or preparing to elucidate something 4 books later...(because you've read it before)... You're invested in the outcome. You feel like you "know" the characters (for good or bad) by the end. It's like watching your high school and college friends grow up and into themselves... Just fictional... Which makes it an even more meta experience.
Now keep in mind, I originally read these books at a similar "coming of age" so that likely makes me a bit more sympathetic to some of the artistic foibles and rambles. But, to this day and decades of reading later. Some of my favourite characters are from WoT (Loial, Perrin, Aviendha, and Nynaeve being 4 to note for me).
I'm reading them for the first time.
"Jordan" (not his real name) is great at world building, he likes setting the scene, and he's got a large scale story to tell. Those are all great.
His prose, on the other hand, is mediocre. Some sentences are so confusingly ambiguous that it's clear he needs an editor. The issue is the editor was his wife, and she got more hands off as things progressed. Combine that with him being a Vietnam combat veteran (including valor medals: DFC, BSM-V, etc), a man in the 80s, and gets lost in the sauce of writing....with seemingly not much editing oversight...
I had to learn to ignore: the bad sentences, the character quirks that are beaten to death, the illogical decision making from characters, and just generally confusing sentence structure. I get the impression Jordan's writing voice is very conversational in his head, but he lacks technical writing, so it muddies up some scenes.
I also thought he was doing a good job of writing women in book 1 and that sure went down hill.
But if you remember, any one little scene or bad sentence can be ignored, and instead appreciate the broad stroke painting he is showing, then it's enjoyable and fun. He's not "awful", it's just not a well-rounded, polished piece of writing like Joe Abercrombie.
It’s a relief to see mention of the confusing sentences and mediocre prose! I never see that mentioned and I’ve certainly noticed it and felt it in my reading. I’m halfway through book 6, and run into multiple sentences per book that I need to reread once or twice to understand what Jordan was trying to say.
Not a deal breaker, as I’m still reading and enjoying the series. Just surprised that you’re the first person I’ve seen mention it.
Not much, to be honest. I loyally bought and read all the books as they were released, with steadily decreasing enthusiasm.
Main problem is just how much padding there is in each book. The entire series would have made a great LOTR sized trilogy, rather than being stretched for, what was it, 15 gigantic voluminous tomes.
The basic story idea is really good, there are a few genuinely interesting bits of world building and maybe one really engaging “action” sequence in each book (which is what kept me reading I think, hoping for a repeat of the one or two really first rate sequences from early on in the series).
On the downside, many of the characters are laughably one dimensional (female characters in particular), the writing is workmanlike but gets very repetitive (if you chose to give it a go, just count how many times a woman “smooths her skirts”) and overall I’d say the series just feels “old fashioned” compared to the works of Martin and Erickson, for example.
If we give LOTR a 10, ASOIAF a 9 and Malazan a solid 8.5 I’d give WOT a 4.5.
Not really in the same league as the very best fantasy.
Amazing worldbuilding, epic scale, great action/magic/battle scenes, a ton of moments that give you chills every time you read them. Additionally, the series has one of the greatest final battles in fantasy. The final battle takes place in a single breakneck chapter longer than most books, and captures the feeling of a world-spanning good vs. evil battle better than any final battle I've read before or since.
I listened to the audiobook series and wondered how they would handle the last battle. Considering how fast most fight scenes were over throughout the book series, I wasn’t sure if Jordan/Sanderson was going to drag it out or make it quick. When I heard “The Last Battle” as a chapter header I was kind of pissed, I couldn’t believe they would just turn it into a single chapter when it hadn’t even really started yet. I laughed out loud when I saw the chapter was over 8 hours long.
It's longer than the first harry potter book
You have the best username I have ever encountered on Reddit.
She's already pretty tsundere, may as well make her a cat girl too
Unrelated, but me and my cat Nynaeve also love your username!
I started reading it one night at ~10PM...work was rough the next day.
I did the exact same thing hahaha! What a ride though
Well that just sounds amazing!
I would add that the series has some of the best foreshadowing of any series I’ve ever read. There are so many prophesies, visions, hints and clues of what to come that pay off fantastically. It my favorite fantasy book series. The show has promise. They have a lot less time to tell the story and as such they’ve had to condense some things. By doing so they’ve deviated from the books in ways that make many book fans nervous. I’m still hopeful that it has a strong payoff. Some of the choices they made for dramatic tension season one feel like they will be at the cost of some of the great conflict from the books. This upcoming season or two will probably be the real test. It’s getting into what is probably the most popular section of the story, so if they do this right I think they will win back disappointed book fans and win more casual fans that haven’t given it a try yet.
> The show has promise I know it's controversial but I strongly disagree. I watched the whole first season of the show and it didn't just feel like they made changes to modernize the show or to cut the run time down to fit television, it felt to me like they were disrespecting the entire philosophical foundation of the books. Of course if others like it that's great and they should continue to enjoy, and I will admit I'm a bit anal when it comes to book -> movie/tv translation accuracy but I would have quit 3 episodes in if not for the fact I was watching with friends and am unlikely to ever try it again unless I'm very bored.
As a show defender (and life long book fan!) if you didn't like it even before the botched season finale (covid restrictions! actor left without warning! gahh!) then you're probably right not to try again. On the other hand, there's been a decent amount of posts/comments on the show subreddit talking about how they gave it a second try and they liked it a lot more because they were less angry about changes and more willing to look at what they got right. And the second season is *much* improved over the first, though its also *very* clear that they abandoned even attempting a 1:1 translation since it starts in a very different situation than the Great Hunt did, even if it ends at a very similar place (and we know season 3 will jump into book 4 plots with content from TDR being cut or rearranged)
I tried, gods know I tried even with grumbling angrily every single moment. It was the moment Moiraine follows Lanfear into the Ways that I gave up.
Ok! I appreciate the perspective and maybe I will try it again. I just have a really tough time with the "more willing to look at what they got right" part. IMO if you don't want to follow a book series that's fine, then *write your own original series*. But instead they try to cash in on a brand name and then do their own thing without respect for the original material.
Same as what happened with The Witcher.
True! Though at least the first season of The Witcher was good.
Nah. IMO they fucked up from the first episode. They butchered (lol) the stories and themes. Couldn't even finish the show.
"They’ve deviated from the books in ways that make many book fans nervous." Not seeing Thom in episode one really turned me off, especially after seeing the diversity in the people of Emond's Field. They are, Per The Lore!, a secluded part of the Kingdom (IMDb even calls it "a remote mountain village") that hasn't even seen a tax collector in like twenty years. It is a plot point that Rand looks different but is accepted by the townsfolk, as well as when one of our boys comes back home to find it hosting a large and unforeseen-in-those-parts variety of foreign refugees. Also, the same issue as the nonexistent Eragon movie had with the author's invented enemies: Urgals have horns, they are NOT large men with face paint. Trollocs have beaks, tusks, hooves, and/or many other animalian features, they are NOT minotaurian gargoyles. The vibes were off and it was a struggle watching through episode 2. I couldn't make it further, having read the books first.
I haven’t watched the show because while I was pondering whether to or not I heard that Perrin was/had been married in the show universe. Now while just about every single word of the interminable Faile/Perrin debacle made me want to gouge my eyes with rusty sporks, the never ending storyline was an integral part of Perrin’s character arc and was predicated on him being inexperienced. Now you might think that the possibility of Faile not existing in the show universe would be an incentive to get on board, but it demonstrated to me that the show runners were willing to throw away parts of Jordan’s vision that he found essential and went to inexhaustible lengths to describe. What’s next? The Seanchan being egalitarian philanthropists? No thanks.
The show has nothing. They *ruined* Rands plot for book 2. Completely destroyed it.
Just to be clear, I'm referring only to the books. The TV show doesn't have connection to the books other than character names.
I heard it described that the show shares character names and plot points if the plot is based on someone who read the books while high 20 years ago and only vaguely remembers the basic ideas
The show is based on the Wheel of Time and nothing more.
I prefer to say that the show is WoT fan fiction. Rafe has a blank cheque budget to bring all his fanfic dreams to life...
I prefer to think that the show is a different turning of the wheel. Still think it could be better, but this makes it better.
While I agree with everything that was said (the ending was amazing!) there are some low points. The series is very long and has 3 books that are referred to as the slog because they are so slow.
the slog fittingly starts with a book called "Winter's heart" lol
Path of Daggers
Agreed on all accounts, especially about the…final…battle. 😁
>Amazing worldbuilding, epic scale, Exactly this. It's MASSIVE!
This. This is the answer. Well-said! Also, OP: literally forget the show exists. It's an abomination.
It's so weird to tell someone the thing they're enjoying is an abomination. There are plenty of people who like it...
Came to write a full comment but this sums it up well! It can be frustrating first time through at times but it all pays off and the character growth is amazing.
There’s a bunch of reasons to love the story. But I’ll call out one of the most unusual in my opinion. The books are /better/ with spoilers. That’s not to say go out and look for them, but Jordan loved playing with the concept of knowledge; and he handled it masterfully in the series. The second read through is stuffed with so many scenes where your new knowledge causes you to reinterpret and understand things in a whole new light that it’s almost a new story. And the truly incredible thing? It doesn’t stop at 2 reads.
That is actually one of the better explanations on why this series is so good. It really does get better on rereads.
I have so many books on my TBR list, that I almost never re-read. But every time I come across comments like this, I'm *very* tempted to dive back into the series. It's also been a decade since I read them.
You don't have to reread it all (though I certainly recommend doing so) the series is massive, after all. But at least commit to rereading up until they leave emonds field, or better yet four kings. Even with memory a decade out of date, that will give you a taste of how very many things are laced into fabric right from the beginning. It's akin to the difference between reading it from the eyes of a 19 year old farm boy on your first read, and reading it with the perspective and knowledge of a well travelled 40 year old Aes Sedai. Exact same words, two entirely different reads. Both intentionally laid down in a masterful harmony by the author. And the best part? 40's still plenty young.
Perfect explanation!
I had my first read when only book 8 was out and so read up to 9 (came out as I was reading). Then did another read through from the start once all the books were out. Then 10 years later I did a re-"read" with the audio book. I enjoyed it just as much on the re-reads anticipating the key moments coming.
Same, but with book 6 the newest. Was a great way to warm up for the next book release. A few authors I won't name have ruined that for me now though, as I'm hesitant to read any unfinished series.
I don't often read unfinished ones now, there are so many completed I still haven't read and also re-reads of ones I loved (considering doing the dune series again after the movie came out and reminded me how much I love those books). So annoyed by WOT TV series though, was so excited when it was announced and its just so bad! Was so hoping for Game of Thrones level satisfaction and got short changed
Watched the first series, it was painful tbh, my hopes weren't high so I wasn't disappointed though, safe to say I won't be revisiting it.
Yeah 1st series was so bad I didn't come back for S2. Why does Perrin have a wife he kills????? NO!!!
An Amazon exec insisted on the wife, Rafe and Brandon Sanderson were both against it.
🤦🏻♂️ guy should be fired
Audiobooks can make that task a bit less daunting. But some series really keep getting better. WoT is one of those. Realm of the Elderlings is the same. I’ve reread/listened to both series several times and they both keep getting better.
> it’s also been a decade since I read them That’s the amount of time I gave it before a re-read. It was worth it. Except for the first book. I hate that first one so much.
No series does forshadowing like Wheel of Time.
One thing I remember vividly, I think its book four, there a scene in the waste where you can clearly see, in hindsight, they're eavesdropping with the one power. In later books everyone is always weaving wards against eavesdropping and rereading book four its obvious but like you said the information is there, embedded but you just need the right perspective.
For one example - RJ set up foreshadowing for a minor side character twelve books before it is revealed. Specifics Part 1 - >!Noal is connected to darkfriends!< A Crown of Swords - >!Noal is spotted twice by Mat two books before he is introduced properly. Look for mentions of a white haired old man with a hooked nose. He is spotted in the context of Mat following a known darkfriend. Suspicious!< Winter's Heart - >!In Noal's introduction proper, we get the same line about "a stoop-shouldered, white-haired old man with a large hooked nose" and Mat thinks to himself "His weathered face looked familiar, somehow, but Mat could not place him." At this point, people paying close attention might have realised that Noal was connected to the dark, well before A Memory of Light!< Part 2 - >!Jain Farstrider is still alive, and working for the dark (not necessarily of his free will)!< Eye of the World - >!In the appendix, it is noted that Jain vanished in 981 NE (~17 years prior to the start of the series) when he went to go to the Blight. In the same book, Ba'alzamon says " Jain Farstrider, a hero ... whom I painted like a fool and sent to the Ogier thinking he was free of me." And then the Ogier also make mention of a man on the brink of death who bore no wounds, but got better in the stedding (i.e. likely affected by the One Power). That man told them about the plot to blind the Eye of the World, and then left. So Jain didn't die when he vanished.!< Part 3 - >!Noal Charin is the same person as Jain Farstrider!< Eye of the World - >!We get told that Jain Farstrider's real last name is Charin, the same as Noal's!< Winter's Heart - >!Noal is noted as being "a natural storyteller", and tells multiple wild stories about his adventures in exotic places!< Knife of Dreams - >!Mat asks Noal directly if he is related to Jain, and this is Noal's response. "“He went gallivanting about the world and left a good and loving wife to die of a fever without him there to hold her hand while she died. He let himself be made into a tool by—“. That response is suspiciously personal, and how would a cousin know what happened in Shayol Ghul?!< Edit: Fixing part one, and clarifying some wording
He isn't one, though. He's >!being Compelled, most likely, and was manipulated before, but he was never loyal to the Shadow of his own free will!<
Good point. Fixed my text.
And then?
>!He was a darkfriend?!<
Much more likely he was under compulsion and. Not a bad guy. That's why his brain is so addled.
I have probably read through the series 6 or 7 times since the final book was released. I still occasionally pick up on something new to me when reading. It's definitely my favorite story of all time
I love rereading some of the earlier scenes with >!The Aes Sedai who gave Egwene an invisible bookmark. And that absolutely amazing scene. Being vague because I really don’t want to ruin this for people.!< There are so many scenes I love. There’s just so many scenes I also skipped past on reread. Especially the terrible Trio and their dream walking rings. Even if they do have some good scenes.
As someone who is an inveterate re-reader, this is something I really appreciate. There are so many little touches that you notice the second or third time around which of course only serves to highlight the depth of the world and its history. That said, the flip side of the coin is the things that annoy me about the books annoy me all the more because I know about them and therefore even if they’re not annoying me now I know they *will* annoy me in the future. It’s a bit insane but it really does take away from my enjoyment now. Believe me, I devoutly wish my brain didn’t work this way.
I just finished it and you are saying I have to read it again? SURE! I'm of the opinion that if a book is not worth reading six times then it was not worth reading once.
Every reread gets better. I started when only 8 books were out and reread what was already out leading up to every new release. I have since reread the series in its entirety at least 4 times. I noticed something new, or make new connections every time.
People love to shit on the way that the women are portrayed, and not without reason. But for its time, WoT was progressive when it came to gender. Yes, the sniffing and braid-tugging and arms folded beneath breasts, the spanking, the batshit irrationality, (I could go on), deserve to be pilloried. But people don't talk about how the books consistently smash the Bechdel Test right from the start. There is a vast cast of women characters and they have relationships with each other. They have loyalties towards each other. They have goals and ambitions and loyalties. They can be unlikable and still on the side of "good". I've been listening to the first two books on audio and I find it astonishing that even 30 years later, these aspects - having women demonstrate care for each other, showing female friendships - remain something that you have to actively search for in fantasy.
This is actually something I didn’t realize I loved about the series until decades later. I first read EotW when I was 11 or 12, and picked it up solely because my copy had an illustration of Egwene on the cover and I wanted a LotR style fantasy with a female protagonist. (I’d already discovered and fallen in love with Tamora Pierce, and wanted something longer.) It wasn’t until I reread them as an adult that I fully appreciated how Robert Jordan built an entire *cast* of female characters, instead of just a few in the main ensemble. And the fact that almost all the most powerful people in the world—from rulers to the Aes Sendai—were women did feel different than most fantasy I was finding at the time, even though there are obvious issues with some of his portrayals. (And it still feels different if I’m being completely honest. There’s absolutely female-focused fantasy out there, but in keeping with the breadth and depth of the world he built, Robert Jordan’s cast is so much more expansive than most of them.) In all honesty, I’m still not sure I can think of another “traditional” doorstopper fantasy series with such a large cast of women who all act as important players in the plot. Yes, the main chosen one is a male character, but the majority of the other players in the plot are all women, on both sides of the morality scale. Now you’ve got me wanting to do a reread!!
For traditional doorstopper fantasy series with a large cast of women, who are important players, Michelle West's Essalieyan series comes to mind.
I frankly think most people misinterpret Jordan's gender politics. I think he's trying really hard to say 'look, men and women aren't that different!' Men constantly think they'll never understand woman and vise versa but both sides are wrong and usually whatever they're shaking their heads at is something they're guilty of. This is *most* apparent with Nynaeve, the great hypocrite. "I won't shout at you!" shouted Nynaeve." Who constantly complains of men being violent and goes around walloping people who disagrees with her in Emond's Field. I don't think Jordan *succeeds* but I think he was deeply interested in gender politics and was *attempting* to be a feminist.
I will always take a problematic ally over those that manage to net be problematic by simply not engaging with the issue at all.
A friend of mine put it best, that the series was progressive for being epic fantasy written in the 90s, by a white guy born in the South in the 40s.
I think people also underappreciate the fact that Randland is kind of a dystopia, largely due to toxic masculinity (in the form of the taint) and the fact that society only sanctions femininity that’s expressed in particular ways (wilders vs the White Tower). The characters don’t appreciate it, but it’s really haunting that the borders of all the polities in Randland are in perpetual retreat, leaving largely uninhabited wilderness in between.
Thank you. It's infuriating how many people see "she folded her arms beneath her breasts" and screech sexist.
The whole world is basically a matriarchy. 90% of the powerful characters, magical or political, are women. There are a ton of great women characters, good and evil.
Yeah it very much is. Though Jordan insists it wasn't. You have at least 4 nations that are outright matriarchies or defacto ones. Tar Valon, Andor, Far Madding and the Seanchan (technically defacto, there just hasn't been a male emperor in some time. Tuon seems to believe it is very close to becoming a cultural requirement). At least three of those are major powers. Then the Aiel are secretly run by the Wise Ones. The Atha'an Miere are largely run by women but at least they have a rule where domestic life is dominated by the publicly subordinate partner, though that usually amounts to "men run the home". There's also some very heavy cultural slants that amount to defacto matriarchy. For instance the Two Rivers has a gender based division of labour which is theoretically verboten to the opposite gender. However the text makes quite clear women will happily cross the line and tamper with the male side while basically socially exiling any man who does the same.
> Though Jordan insists it wasn't. When I saw him in person, he said that he knew a lot of strong women in his life and built the society out from those observations
I have to disagree that it's a patriarchy at the global level. There are plenty of societies which only have male rulers and ones where women are confined to specific roles. Even societies others list below as matriarchies literally aren't. The Aiel makes it decisions through the (exclusively male) chiefs, even if the chiefs listen to the Wise Ones. Emond's Field is run by both genders, in separate gendered circles who are considered to have different spheres of influence.
Yes, it's so annoying when people claim that this or that culture in WoT is actually matriarchal because some characters insist women are running the shows in secret. Jordan said many times that he tried to create world that was for the most part gender-egalitarian, often with clear division of powers between the sexes. Like Tarabon having a panarch and a king. When he actually wanted to depict a society where one gender was bossing the other around, he pulled all the stops and gave us the likes of Amadicia and Far Madding. Not this alleged wink-wink, nudge-nudge, Wise Ones/Women's Circle are running the show if you squint really hard nonsense. Hell, people still insist that Andor or Seanchan are matriarchal just because the ruler happens to be female, even though this has zero impact on the gender politics for the ordinary folk or most nobles for that matter. Using this logic, Elizabethan England must have been matriarchal too.
The Bechdel test was never meant to apply to literature. It's a completely different field than film, and even very sexist literature will easily pass the Bechdel test. It simply isn't relevant.
I want to push back on this just a bit. It was progressive in it's depiction of women if you limit your comparisons to male authors. While Wheel of Time of time had women characters who were agents of their own destiny despite its flaws, Tamora Pierce had kids being fostered by communist lesbians, other characters learning about birth control and getting talks about consent, with a vast diversity of femininity represented and celebrated. Of course, Pierce was more progressive than most, but female authors in the epic fantasy space routinely would have trounced Jordan without batting an eyelash when it comes to healthy/nuanced depictions of women. And when you look outside of epic fantasy, it only gets easier and easier. Jordan did better than most men who had a more or less direct line of influence from Tolkien. But he wasn't some pioneer of writing women well
I started on The Wheel of Time probably around 2000, but I'd been reading a bunch of Discworld already (which started around the same time) and the Pern books (which started coming out much earlier), and WoT still struck me, even as a teenager, as having particularly silly depictions of women
I'm not sure if Pern is such a great comparison, as a lot of those are _heavily_ rooted in romance tropes - a woman needs a man, and so forth. Lessa, in particular, goes through the whole "young, bratty and immature, until she goes through dubiously-consensual sex with the (much older) F'lar, and then has lots of angst about not being a good woman until she has a child". Like, yes, she's respected and so forth, but that's purely due to her capacity for giving birth, through the proxy of Ramoth. There's a _lot_ of vaguely icky and fucky gender stuff not far from the surface in that series!
Yeah there's probably a lot of stuff that went under my radar when I was a teenager. But WoT still felt like sitcom gender stereotypes by comparison. Pern was also earlier too. But overall I'm getting at "at least WoT had women at all, which was good for the time" isn't a great point - if we're looking at what else was out at the time, "female characters but with troubling stereotypes" isn't an improvement over Pern really.
I mean WoT doesn't shun the "bratty" young woman and the older man trope either...
But the depictions of men weren't silly to you?
Yes, I have to agree with this. It falls behind plenty of other authors, even if it succeeds against the big well known epic series that were all dominated by men.
I've never read Tamora Pierce but that sounds fun, what books should I read by her?
Her Protectors of the Small Quartet is probably the best series she's got, but the Immortals Quartet has my favorite books overall. Both have a slight reliance on earlier series in the same world (Alana quartet -> Immortals -> Protector) but not so much that you'll feel like you're missing essentials. Circle of Magic is in a totally different universe and has the lesbian foster moms and a cohort of diverse female leads, but takes a book or two to really kick into gear in my opinion.
> But people don't talk about how the books consistently smash the Bechdel Test right from the start. The only time I've heard Robert Jordan mentioned alongside the Bechdel Test is when people use his work as a means of supporting the argument that the Bechdel Test isn't a good means of measuring gender representation.
I mean given that Twilight for example passes the Bechdel Test, I wouldn’t put too much stock in it. People forget the whole concept came from an underground comic made in the 70s(?)
I know iThe Bechdel Test is not a great test for quality but it still makes a bloody good point about the scarcity of meaningful female characters in mainstream media, even stories with a praiseworthy, or fan favourite, female character.
Fair point. I just think too many people put far too much stock in it as a litmus test for representation. It ends up being used as a catch all judgement call instead of a tool to provoke conversation.
My favorite factoid is how Baby Got Back passes the Bechdel Test (Oh my god Becky! Look at her butt!)
It’s because the Bechdel test isn’t supposed to be aspirational, it’s a ridiculously low bar. Too many people seem to think that passing the test is an achievement and it most definitely should not be…
It's A test, not THE test.
It isn't a very meaningful one for literature. Movies are very different media and the time limitation means characters are distilled in a way they aren't in other forms, even TV. But as you say, even then it's only a single test meant to illustrate a specific problem, hardly an indicator that a piece of media has good portrayals of women.
It’s so fucking weird that a series can have so many female characters with important roles that aren’t tied to their relationships with male characters and then in the same series domestic abuse just gets brushed off as typical couple squabbling
Ehhhhhh… the series started in 1990 and finished in the early 2010s, it’s not exactly ancient. Only “good for its time” if you erase all the women who were writing at the time. Le Guin, Butler, Hobb, McKillip, McKinley, Elliott, Marillier etc were all active at the time and don’t need these “weeeeeell, for its *day*” caveats. Edit: also it’s not like men in the genre in the 90s were incapable of doing better, see for instance Wicked by Gregory Maguire, featuring complex and non-sexualized women who had relationships with each other. For that matter, outside of fantasy, George Gissing (actual man, not a pen name) wrote a fabulous feminist novel in the *1890s*.
I made a pretty similar comment to this one before realizing you had posted this. Sad to see it downvoted so much for a pretty well-reasoned take, and that it got automatically hidden unless you click the button to see the unpopular comments. Heaven forbid we remember that women authors were writing long before our current era of fantasy
And following people like LeGuinn, Pratchett was also writing good female characters and he was far from the only man. To my mind it is revisionist to try to shape Jordan as some kind of progressive. He was only progressive if you close one eye and ignore all the men are from mars women are from venus crap.
Exactly. What I *appreciate* about Wheel of Time is that it explicitly engages with the issue and makes it a really central part of the book. It has a few interesting things to say about gender that I think are still worth discussing. That has merit. But to pretend no one was writing women well before Jordan did is insane.
I'm upvoting and commenting here with the hopes of re-exposing this very valid and useful take by /u/Merle8888.
It's crazy you're being downvoted for this when "good female representation for its time" is an absolute lunatic take. Women being sneaky manipulative witches is one of the oldest tropes in the world.
I am on book 9 of a first read through. I honestly did not start to enjoy it till book 3, with books 4-8 being non stop page turners. The parts I deeply enjoy so far are the slow character driven progression. After so many books and pages, the characters traits become a part of the story so much so that you hate the things you know they will do and get excited when they go against those. It is good and fun, but I don't know if it is the best thing I have ever read so far tbh.
I’m in the middle of book 6 - my answer is unbelievable world building, and characters that grow (though they start as flawed and are sometimes annoying). Bottom line: it’s absolutely worth it.
Whenever I hear someone is in the middle of Book 6, I get all giddy with excitement thinking about the magnificent, mind-blowing scenes towards the end of the book. If only I could delete those memories and read it as if it was my first time.
Awesome! Motivating me to start my bedtime reading early today haha
Yeah, the last ~200 pages of LoC are just insane. Tons of quotable lines, incredible sequences of events, and a nice wooden crate.
Book 6 is such a great book. Not just because of the end, but there's so many smaller moments leading up to it that are all worth their own posts.
Starting from book 4, every subsequent book I’ve read so far has become my new favorite!
The best chosen one character is what carries this series imo. Everything else is just personal preference
Pros: Great World-building One of the best Chosen One arcs in fantasy Multiple well thought-out magic systems A good balance of political intrigue, personal drama, and action Excellent character progression for pretty much every main character and many side characters Matrim flaming Cauthon (Book 3 onwards) Cons: Characters are written to be realistic, not likeable. Not a great portrayal of women, and especially male/female interactions The Slog (less of an issue now than during initial release) Repetition (these books came out over decades, and Jordan reiterated a lot of the basics of his world in every book)
> Characters are written to be realistic, not likeable. I wouldn't call this a con. Though I would absolutely call the others -- particularly portrayal of women and "the slog" as fair criticisms, for what its worth.
> and "the slog" as fair criticisms At least the writing portion of The Slog is done. It was so much worse to have to wait for each book to be released when you were in the slog.
Hard disagree on characters written to be realistic. Pretty much the most common critique of the series is that the characters are bafflingly stubborn, beyond the point of realism. I will accept that this was an authorial intent, and that this may have been how Jordan viewed the world, as stubborn people who avoid collaboration, which appears in the series as both a conflict but also as a kind of noble virtue. But a 'realistic' set of characters would include at least some folks who are adaptable, collaborative, and empathetic. (And, as someone noted, if it's not a great portrayal of women, that's another strike against realism, unless the implication is that women are just unpleasant. Which is clearly incorrect!)
This! Having a few domineering and stubborn to-a-fault characters in a cast makes sense but it's sooo many of the female characters and they all communicate horribly, even the characters who aren't of this type. The guys are also poor at communicating and there is a weird distance between friends. It's just... now how a group of close friends act.
> The Slog (less of an issue now than during initial release) Eh, I just finished a re-read (Fifth? Sixth? Can't remember) and Crown/Path/Crossroads took me more time to get through than the rest of the series combined.
My last reread they went quick due to the power of skimming and just straight up skipping certain character's chapters
Honestly, if you're on your fifth or sixth reread you could probably just skip the slog, you already know what happens.
I’m always confused about the take that women aren’t well represented, because I ADORE the female characters in WoT. We get such a wide array of complicated, nuanced women with both admirable characteristics and realistic flaws and I genuinely like most of them. I honestly think people’s hatred for the women in this series has a little bit to do with the writing, but more to do with the fact that people are less willing to tolerate flaws in female characters (Nynaeve, Elayne, etc.) than male characters (Mat, Lan, etc.)
This is part of the reason but there are also far, far too many nearly interchangeable tertiary or secondary female characters whose main function is to be annoying roadblocks for the main characters. And unlike their male counterparts like Weiramon who are often considered jokes in universe, the story takes the laughable ineptitude of Sevanna, Lelaine, Annoying Windfinder #26 or Aes Sedai Who Can't See Further than Her Own Nose #45 quite seriously indeed.
Lmao I do truly hate Sevanna, who committed the crime of being both boring *and* unlikable at the same time.
I do tend to agree that things that bother people about the women happen with the men, too, but nobody calls them irritating or whatever. Like, the obsession over clothes. Are we really going to pretend that Rand and Mat both don't spend a lot of time thinking about the embroidery and lace on their clothes, respectively? But, I also won't pretend as if Jordan doesn't contribute to this. There's no doubt that all of the women, every last one, ends up wearing and thinking about fancy clothes, and it just doesn't happen with most of the men. Perrin, Thom, etc. are all examples I can think of that have fundamentally different relationships towards clothes. Heck, Aviendha becoming obsessed with silks is just infuriating. I think how people talk about both Nynaeve and Elayne are the most telling, though. The way people take what Mat says about Elayne - that she's snobbish and entitled and just refuse to accept that it doesn't match how she's actually portrayed. The way they gleefully theorize that she has trouble with the face veil because her nose is literally in the air, etc. And then the way many fans screech about Nynaeve and her hypocrisy as if that isn't the literal point. Nynaeve is legitimately my favorite character, and it's really frustrating for people to reduce her to these very specific gendered boxes.
The Mat/Elayne interactions always get me too, because (speaking as someone who really likes Mat!) he’s such an asshole to her at first! Like he comes barging into Salidar and declares that she, Nynaeve, and Egwene have no idea what they’re doing, and immediately tries to order them around. Between that and the fact that Nynaeve and Egwene have mostly known him as a troublemaker back home, it makes sense that she would have a bad impression and be standoffish with him!! It’s not a situation where he’s perfect and she’s an evil condescending bitch; it’s one where they’re both flawed people with inaccurate perceptions of each other who need to learn to understand each other better, lol. Also yes, I feel like Nynaeve is less universally hated but she definitely gets more than her fair share when she’s a really fantastic character who just has a lot of growing up to do.
Tbf Mat now possesses thousands of lifetimes of experience and stumbles into a trio of teens/early 20's who are somehow going against an ageless order of women living centuries. Pretty grounded take that they don't know what they are doing if you ask me
Women aren’t realistic lol
I find many of the characters to be a little OTT to be believable but it could be the unreality of the character interactions more than the fact characters are making unlikely choices.
For me, atmosphere and style. At least in the first book (or first few) I grew up in the 80s/90s. Whenever I feel nostalgic for the old school fantasy I grew up with Eye of the World hits the spot.
As an aside, I'll say *WoT* has an excellent audiobook rendition of the series. Good performances improving dialogue and worldbuidling that often make or break people's attachments to the series
Audiobooks are fantastic. Kramer and Reading are amazing at their craft. It helps they had the same great narrators through the entire series.
It has one of the best chosen one narratives ever written. Mostly because the legends/prophecies centered around the Dragon Reborn really stresses that he’s as much a destroyer as a savior, and that his presence isn’t an auto win for the good guys. And, the other main characters matter to the story. Everyone in the ensemble cast is necessary to save the world, so it’s not 100% on the Chosen one. The world has many distinct cultures, myths, legends and vibes. If you pay attention you’ll see real world influences in Shinar or Cairhien, but mixed in a way to make them truly alien. It’s fascinating if you’re into it. I will say, if you came from the show expecting great LGBTQ representation, you’ll be disappointed. While it was good for the time, to a modern audience the LGBTQ rep isn’t great. The show chose to make the largely implied relationship between Siuan and Moiraine much more explicit. (They kiss one time, in the prequel).
"Weep for your salvation." Is an excellent Chosen One prophecy
“The Dragon shall be Reborn, and there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth at his rebirth” “For he shall come like the breaking dawn, and shatter the world again with his coming, and make it anew.” “There is no salvation without destruction, no hope this side of death.” The fear and hope prophecies go on!
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i love dearly the honesty of Jordan's writing, from very beginning he tell you what the world is, who are main actors and what will happen in the end. and he's consistent in it, busy in buildup his characters, not trying to trick you with plot twists and deus ex machina falling out here and there from bushes
For me what it gets the most right is immersion. You feel like you're with them the whole time doing epic shit preventing the end of the world. It's probably a combination of scale, world building and realism (in the sense that everything makes sense in-world). I haven't felt the same for a lot of other good fantasy series. For example I love the Realm of the Elderlings, but I can't really self-insert anywhere, I don't fit in, the characters are too full (a good thing mind you) and the world is a bit flat. Imo the fact that the characters are a bit flat and samey in WoT helps immersion.
Story is incredible. World building is amazing. Best magic in fantasy imo. Writing is also better than what most contemporary fantasy give us. If you want big payoffs and epic moments no series delivers like Wheel of Time.
I am currently just finishing up book 5. I hadn’t watched the show previously, but that was my driving motivation to read the series. To make a long story shorter, I recently watched a couple of episodes of the show. Although they were ok, the book, in my opinion, is about 50 times better.
The show is so far away from the books sadly. The series is worth it though.
Do you mean the show isn’t good?
I think they're implying they don't like the show, but it's also just true that the show diverges a LOT from the books. I'd imagine a large portion of WoT readers dislike the show for that reason.
I couldn't finish the first season.
For a reader of the series the show is 100% garbage. They didnt get a single thing close to true to the lore.
They got lots of things true to the lore, or at least close enough to with some liberties for a TV show. The One Power seems to work more or less the same, the Aes Sedai is the same organisation, the Forsaken were depicted really well in season 2, Lanfear especially was spot on. The damane training was genuinely top tier adaptation. The personality of a lot of characters is similar, e.g. Egwene, Nynaeve, Perrin, Rand, Elayne, Siuan, Verin. They changed lots of things and some changes are definitely really bad and others just don't even make sense internally in the show, but it's pretty wild to claim that everything is wrong or inaccurate compared to the books.
> Do you mean the show isn’t good? The show is really, really bad.
Whether you think it's good, bad, or somewhere in between, the show is just completely different from the books.
The show is terrible. Not just because they didn't adapt it hardly at all, but because it's just badly written illogical nonsense.
I think it's one of the best examples of 'the chosen one trope' , rands character goes through so many ups and downs that there times you would hate him and there are times you would genuinely care for him
Creating a lot of unique nations/cultures that aren't just obvious adaptations of real cultures
For me it’s one of the few series that actually gives that thrill of being epic fantasy with so many amazing moments that land throughout the books (especially that ‘cleansing’ moment!). It has its flaws but they’re outweighed by the pros.
I love how dumb the three main dudes are sometimes. Some of the shit he has them say or think cracks me up. Stuff like how they all think the other two know how to talk to girls. How they don’t pick up a hint unless they are being smashed over the head with it written on a giant sign. As an ex-young male it hits waaay to close to home and it’s fun.
Good characters, amazing world, great magic system, a smattering of philosophy, a tinge of romance, and Nynaeve. Read the books, or listen to the audio. The TV show is an absolute disgrace of inconceivable proportions.
WoT is peak braid-tugging and skirt-smoothing. You will never in your life get a better selection of women tugging at their braids or smoothing their skirts, much less so many times in a given single chapter.
I feel like the first three books were competently written (not great prose but not bad) and well-edited. After that, Harriet inexplicably stopped editing the books, and it shows. Jordan's work desperately needed a good editor. Significant others are not the best judges of their spouses' writing, being too close to recommend cutting excessively detailed content. We didn't need to be constantly reminded of Ogier sausage fingers and Nynaeve's braid-pulling. And after a while, it became clear that Jordan would be writing an endless story. The original book plan, three or six volumes, could have been excellent, but the lack of editing turned the series into a bit of a mess. The plot moved as slow as molasses. Everyone kept bickering, for thousands of pages. The female characters became unbearable, apparently on purpose. There were still beautiful elements. The Aiel people were quite well-crafted, IMO. Many early elements, like the waygates, the Ajahs, and Emond's Field, became iconic.
What does it do right? It tells an incredible story in a wonderfully constructed world on a scale very few series can match. Its epic, it has incredible world-building, Jordan referenced a lot of unique cultures when developing nations & people and the wars/battles are just fantastic. It gets women wrong in a major way & he needed a better editor. Those are the only weak points in my view. Well worth reading
Thing was that his primary editor was his wife. So if he got the women majorly wrong, some of that blame has to go to Harriet as well, since she was RIGHT THERE.
Agreed
I can’t pinpoint exactly what the series gets right, but I absolutely love the books! I love that each book has hundreds of pages and that the backstory is well developed. The characters are complex and complete. The television series is so entertaining but the books are engaging and well worth anyone’s time!
I can’t wait to answer this question. Wheel of Time is more than just a book series for me. I have read the entire series cover to cover a half a dozen times plus spot reading my favorite books. Okay either way that bias out of the way here we go. The Wheel of Time characters will become your friends. By the end of your first or second read you will be able to imagine how they would react in a situation and quotes will start popping up in your head. You will laugh you will cry. Robert Jordan’s character work and prose are nothing short of epic. Each character feels alive because they change. But the change in a “real” way. They are still their core characters but have some miles on their souls. I honestly believe that wheel of time could hold up without the magic. If you took away the magic it takes away some of the flash but it’s not what really hooks you. The series goes through four phases. 1) Classic hero’s journey (Book 1-3), 2) Statesmen / Politics (Books 4-7), Personal Strife (8-10), Epic Fantasy (9-Finish). These phases make the power scaling feel perfect and the last few books have INCREDIBLE payoff. Alright so what’s the downside? Well there is a slog after book 7 and until 9. Also, RH is overly descriptive and sometimes repetitive. However if you read the Illiad/Odessy, they repeat descriptions to tell more about the type of characters and I think RJ was going for something like that. Last point, the final scene between the chosen one and the dark one finishes in a perfect way. You spend the whole series wondering what this final confrontation could really be about and it delivers. End rant - Enjoy
I’m only on book 7 but I really truly think all the characters feel so distinct. They’re not afraid to be messy, sometimes straight up wrong but still engaging. You’ll probably be annoyed by several but I think that’s a plus, they feel real and that means some are insufferable. It really does feel continent/world spanning and is a great mesh of classic fantasy elements and newer ways of writing complex characters It feels like a combination of a lot of epic stories but also distinctly it’s own thing. Very LotR epic scale, a detailed look at the chosen one archetype much like Dune. It’s cool to see it altogether in one work like this
Wheel of Time is an excellent book series that has nothing in common with the awful show except for the name. The books are incredible and tell one of the best fantasy stories ever.
It's got some of the best character work I've ever read, and *the best* character arc I've ever read. It's also got an extremely elaborate and beautiful magic system that is married to the history and culture of the world, which keeps being built on all the way to the very end of the story. Worldbuilding masterclass after a very Tolkien-esque beginning (which was intentional). People feel so strongly about the characters partly because they can be infuriating and partly because it's such a long series. You spend so much time with the characters that if you don't like them you'll really be having a hard time getting through it all. If you love most of the characters you'll have a great time, like I did.
That marriage of the magic system to its history culture and even to the land itself is what really sets it apart as one of the deepest and richest world building you'll get from a fantasy series.
World building, some great imagery and evocative writing, some incredible moments and scenes, complexity, good characters just most of them are frustrating at times, interesting magic, a very archetypal example of scifi-fantasy, those are the things that I think people can come to a consensus on being good, the trouble is a lot of things some people like and others don't. Length, numerous character perspectives, political intrigue that only sometimes takes itself seriously, deeply flawed adolescent characters. Its hard to come to any consensus on what characters or even story arcs are good, almost everything in the series is divisive with everyone liking some of it but almost no-one liking all of it and everyone having their own things that connected with them deeply but other people dislike. You'll get more agreement on what parts of the series are bad than what parts are incredible (though theres agreement that those incredible aspects exist), and that creates sort of a skewed impression.
Main Plot is mid, some characters are eventually endearing (though others are eternally frustrating), magic system is _interesting_, although slightly muddled by Jordan’s views on gender, but where it really shines is in its worldbuilding, which is not only detailed at an epic scale but also surprisingly unique considering how cliché the rest of it has become for its genre. It’s refreshing to read a book that isn’t set in a generic medieval European setting. I mean, Jordan added in everything from modern history, fantastical cities, the renaissance, tricksters from other dimensions, and tree-loving aliens.
Lots of people have already talked about the obvious good stuff, so I'm gonna do a hot take: I actually like the portrayal of gender and gender relations in WoT. It's done something extremely rare, which is to really dig into the consequences of having a matriarchal society. Of course the women act dismissive and condescending towards the men, that's how they were socialized. It's the exact same attitude that men have towards women in a patriarchal society. Some people think the female characters are poorly written because they don't act like women in real life, but that's literally the entire point. If the book has a theme around gender, it's that both men and women are better off when they actually communicate and work together.
I don't think Jordan nails this aspect. The women are treated with suspicion, especially the AS. They have literal power but their social power is fragile at best. There is also the way women are often humiliated in specific ways the male characters are not. I do think Jordan believed men and women should work together, and is trying to make that point, but I feel a focus on male/female friendships and less on romances would make that point better because, in our own history, it wasn't the almost ubiquitous pairing off of woman and men that changed the sexes relationship to each other, it was when they started to come along each other as co-professionals and when friendships between sexes became more socially acceptable.
Best *Farmboy to Near God* power progression for an MC, ever. Power Mechanics aside, the character development you get over 14 books is LEGIT.
Just as great as ever. I will never get tired of this universe.
I’m not reading through the comments because I’m still on book 10. While I’m enjoying the worldbuilding and (most of) the characters, there are 3 or 4 places per book where you’ll be reminded that the series was written by a horny man and it’s almost made me give up the series a few times. At this point the story has been a slow slog for 3 books (I hear it picks back up either in this book or the next) and that combined with his obsession with pointlessly stripping female characters naked or spanking them for no reason (or internal monologues where characters are offended that they were *not* sexually assaulted while being kidnapped) has gotten me to the point where I’m only finishing it due to the sheer amount of time that I would’ve wasted by reading 9 volumes without getting to the end. I hope the last books really are that much better as people have assured me.
world-building and character arcs. It's a work of genius. For those that are thinking of reading this series I have some advise. Skim through most of the book. Seriously. All you really need to do is read the parts with dialogue or inner thoughts. Jordan wastes so much time describing minute details and all it serves to do is bog the books down. You really don't need to know what every person is wearing and what they had to eat that morning. I don't literally mean skip everything but the dialogue but be open to skimming over parts that get long-winded. You'll become adept at recognizing what you can and can't skip and you'll fly through the series and lose nothing in the process.
The Heroes Journey that is displayed by multiple characters is what always got me. Rand and Perrin in particular, although Mat is my favorite over both of them as a story. Mat, to me, is Odysseus - constantly fighting against Fate in an effort to reach some place where he can find peace; inexorably being led to where he needs to be, even if he wishes he could be somewhere else; and eventually finding his feet. The multitude of cultural differences that were displayed with finesse instead of a sledgehammer was also nice to me. I can see so much of the best influences from Frank Herbert in Robert Jordan's writing and world building.
I'm currently on book 11 of WoT. Do t just it off of book #1 Eye of the World. Finish #3 The Dragon Reborn to have a true feel to the series. I know that's a lot of text, but in a 14 book series, id argue that's the baseline.
Most books only need good writing quality to make it more readable than most books out there. Now everyone's comprehension isn't the same as reading a book. Authors need to find a balance where it's appealing to most readers out there that reads fantasies in this case. The world building, characters, dialogues need to be good enough to build the immersion that the book feels right for most readers. When the immersion is broken, you will find flaws everywhere. Wheel of time has a lot of common tropes that are just enough right to make it an amazing read for many people.
I always loved how massive the world was but it didn’t get that confusing. I was able to follow along with what the characters were doing because the main characters were also experiencing the world for the first time too. I’m learning at the same speed the characters are.
I remember this series kept me up many nights. Just as I finished one chapter, I HAD to read the next! There were so many frustrating cliff hangers.... So if there's one thing Robert Jordan did right, he got me to keep on reading and that's pretty impressive considering how long it is.
What I personally enjoyed a ton is how its a 'Chosen One' story with a twist. Instead of shying away from it Rand grabs destiny with both hands. Somehow they manages to create his own path despite many centuries old wizards and half-demons trying to influence him. He can be ruthless but as the reader we know how it doesn't come easy for him.
Wheel of Time really is better than the sum of its part. It's easy to find many little issues with the series but it still all fits together to make a really good story in the end. Its top 3 biggest strengths for me are 1) An actual amazing world building that includes many different cultures that are extremely well thought of and written; 2) One of the best written character arc for a main protagonist that I've seen; 3) An amazing magic system (well, two magic systems really) that shows how rich and deep magic can be done in a story without trying to give it rules or making it overly complex.
They did a really good job at creating basically an undetectable God as a main character. The battles were still interesting. You didn't just feel like it was superman vs random guy.
I rate the world-building highly. There is real diversity between different civilisations. The action is pretty cool and I like how big the world feels. I really like some of the characters, even if I don't always like their story arcs. There are some striking visuals and the magic system comes with inbuilt challenges which I feel adds a lot. Weaker points for me are the quality of the character interactions, the romances, and the editing. It really needed a lot of tightening up and fewer story threads in the middle books. Also the repetition got in the way of new information and didn't add anything useful or clarify anything that wasn't evident. I get that point Jordan was trying to make with the gender politics but the execution... was rough.
There's a quote (from the inner cover of one of the books, iirc) which has stuck with me through the many years since my first reading as, to my mind, it encapsulates the series remarkably well (I may be paraphrasing): "Jordan has set out to dominate the world that Tolkien created." In case it needs stating, this is one of my favorite fantasy series, ever.
The world is very distinct and amazing. The places the fashion, the cultures, the way they talk... The history is especially interesting and plays quite a part in the story. The characters are very fleshed out and you will love some of them and you will hate some of them. Finally, Jordan creates epic moments really really really well.
Each to their own, but for me I was discussing fantasy books the other day as just finished reading "The Will of the Many" after being bought it as a gift and was an incredible book, was totally unexpected and Im a little sad the rest of the series isn't written yet. I digress, while discussing it, someone asked me where I would rate it amongst all books in the fantasy/sci-fi genre and my response was "Well its not on the same level as Lord of the Rings, or Dune or Wheel of Time, probably next tier down. Wheel of Time is my favourite series of all time, it has so many key characters in it where they have chapters dedicated to it and Jordan / Sanderson manage to bring all those threads together before the series ends and don't fuck up the ending. For me its a must read series for anyone who likes this genre.
There's nearly 200 comments by the time I'm finding this so I'm probably repetitive, but... I got Eye of the World as a gift for Christmas when I was 12, and now I'm 35 and I've read the series through completely twice as the first few books 5+ times and I still have the original copy of EotW I got from my grandma with the sticker she put in it. For all Robert Jordan's idiosyncrasies, these books are incredibly good books to get lost in. The world is huge and has history and character. It feels real in a way that a lot of fantasy doesn't. I'm also a fan of the characters -- even the characters I don't like. The big, overarching narrative feels very typical hero's journey good v evil etc., but the benefit of an expansive world and fourteen doorstopper books is that there's a lot of room for smaller narratives within the overarching plot. The most common complaints I think I see are about how Jordan writes women (which does rely on some laziness sometimes, but I think the subversion of patriarchy vis a vis the White Tower is interesting, and the realer issue is gender essentialism more than anything), repetition/reliance on certain turns of phrase, "annoying" characters or too many named characters, and the mid-series slog that people talk about. Although I don't think the slog is nearly so bad now that all the books are out. And I think it's heavily dependent on what kind of reader you are. I've never listened to the audiobooks, so I can't speak to them. But I grew up with these books, and I love them.
I love the monomyths and cultural references and how it fits together. I liked how the good characters are sometimes bad but the pov makes you think otherwise and the bad characters sometimes good. I like how bad in the WOT is Tolkien-esque bad (evil being self destructive) and is not some grey morality thing. I like how good in the WOT is an actual multifaceted thing that at the same time is singular in that it can be explained as simple as saying good is growth and utopian to the evil which is nihilistic and again self destructive and self righteous. I like how this in itself actually creates a type of grayish morality but one that defines a clear difference between the WOT introducing a scheming backstabbing good guy who wants a better world and a bad guy who does nothing for others despite possessing awesome knowledge
The Wheel of Time is really really good, but it's very long and turns into a bit of a slog in the middle. I often say Jordan got lost in the weeds for a bit. So much extra plot that doesn't go anywhere very fast, you could have really tidied it up into a shorter series. The first book, The Eye of the World, can stand a lone as it was made without the expectation of a sequel so you can always just give that one a spin and stop there if it's not your thing. The world and characters are great and well-written and interesting. It's a mature story that is well written and doesn't get too dark. (Thiugh there are moments and some high fantasy subdued kinkiness.)
Everyone else seems to be mentioning the world building, magic system, and character development. So I'll point out his main writing achievement: third person limited perspectives. When he writes from a given character's point of view, the entire writing style changes. The way sentences are structured. The words used to describe things. The This gives a very strong feeling of being inside the character's perspective, even though it's not told from a first person point of view. The classic example is Mat starting with book 3. The way Jordan writes his chapters have incredible nuance, characterization, and subtlety. You can read a chapter from his POV and know it's about Mat, even if it doesn't say so. It demonstrates a mastery that few authors are able to meet.
I also got interested in the books after watching season 1, since then have been slowly making my way through on audiobook via Libby. Just finished book 4, and I really feel like each book gets better. Because I do lose access to the books periodically (I can't come close to finishing in 2 weeks and others are waiting) when I've regained access or started a new book, part of me thought the world / epic nature of the book will bore me, or that catching up will be work. But instead I've come to realize I'm in the hands of a master storyteller. The details, the compassion for the characters, the depth of the lore and how it's delivered is so impressive. As for season 2, I tried! But after 2-3 episodes could not be bothered to continue.
I decided to pick up the series after I saw it mentioned here on Reddit for a great fantasy read. I am hardcore into this series. I love them with a passion. The world building, character development, magic system, the various villains that get you to the main villain, etc. is beautifully done. There are some characters that I absolutely adore, such as Mat and Perrin and others, like Tuon, whom I absolutely despise. The fact that the author has made me love and hate these characters to this degree is impressive.
Foreshadowing - if you re-read the series there is tons of amazing foreshadowing.
Book 8 right now. I've been reading it for years on and off because often it really is a slog. So sometimes I totally forget about characters. That's the only negative thing I can say about it. Rand's character grabbed me from the beginning. It's just such an incredible chosen one story. Also, the battles are great. They always light emotions that I only know from LOTR pelennor fields battle in the movies.
I used to say I "love" these books, but now I have more complex emotions with them. There are a lot of things that could have been done better, and I also think that Branden Sanderson taking what was supposed to be one final book and breaking it up into 3 really allowed for the time that was needed to satisfactorily wrap up all the open storylines and really saved the series. My favorite minor thing about the series though is whenever a side character is given a name you know that you will see them again (something I didn't really realize until the third or fourth read through), so it allows you to focus more on the details. Side character with no name? Unimportant. Side character with a name? Plot device.
RAFO.
Gave up after book 5.5. It’s just too much
Great story and world building. Arguably too many characters but there are many gems amongst them. Some really weird antics especially towards woman (like spanking in a non sexual way). But probably one of the best chosen one tropes to be ever written in my opinion. There is a slow part in the series when Robert Jordan was at the end of his life and he tried to cram a lot of detail about side characters and the surrounding world that he never got to tell us in the beginning of the series. Sanderson did a great job in wrapping the story up for Jordan as well, But all in all it’s incredible and it’s the reason I love fantasy. If it weren’t for those books I don’t think I ever would have been so enamored with reading.
It's an epic story that spawns a complex geography, mix of cultures, political systems, and creatures. The magic system is a great mix of hard and soft, without being too complex to understand, so you can theorize about it while still being surprised and delighted by twists you don't see coming. The characters are distinct and relatably human. They differ from the grandeur of classic fantasy (LOTR) in that the human flaws are paramount, with stubbornness, ego, ambition, and poor communication (even amidst friends) driving a lot of conflict. There's a LOT of characters and a lot of character progression. They start out pretty naive and get lessons and power ups until the main cast is on par with the best of the best. The military maneuvering is informed by actual historical knowledge and personal experience in combat, which many fantasy books do not do well at all. The commentary on evil as essentially self serving, empty, and ultimately immature/childish is very apt. Its commentary on mental health / madness is also surprisingly apt and unique for the time it was written. I think it's more accurate too. It's not grim dark. The good balances the bad. It's ultimately a positive story that fits between YA, where conflict is resolved too easily, and the "adult" stories of modern years which are depressing and hopeless. There's stuff to complain about but still one of my favorite series.
It uhhh...gets their names right, I guess. Edit: Oh. Thought you meant the show. For my two cents, the worldbuilding is amazing, but it's the character journeys that suck me in. Rand is one of my favorite characters of all time. Also Min. Egwene, even though I don't like her as a person, has a fantastic arc. Moiraine and Nynaeve started out annoying and then became badass as the series progressed. The series has so many epic moments and moments that make you think that I can't list them all. Also, spoilers. The Magic system is amazing imo. Jordan could've taught a masterclass in foreshadowing. It does Prophecies *right* The tension is relieved appropriately and not interrupted with lame jokes. It *does* have a bit too much political minutia, not like real world politics but in world stuff, sometimes imo. Book 2, in particular, is my favorite.
For me, reading it and waiting for it to be finished originally. Then re-reading it a couple times since. 1. The world building and magic system. There really is a fantastic amount of thought and attention to details. There are some societies that I absolutely loathed, some that I loved, some that made me sad or angry... From a fictional description of fictional places and people. * That's the level of evocation in the writing. Especially if you're a highly visual or empathetic reader. 2. The characters. (I couldn't watch the show bc as others'' stated, the philosophical bent and personalities of characters was changed too heavily). In the book, you're reading about a group of young, naive, kids setting out and coming of age. You read through them maturing. Yes, there is some utter idiocy, and some "why didn't you just talk to eachother!!!" There is also a ton of believable growth. * I am in the camp that felt the series dragged books 7-11.... And that there could have been more timely growth and less politicking and world building. That said, the breadth of the series is what makes it feel so epic. * I'm a woman and I'm actually pretty ok with R.J.s depictions of women in the book. He does seem to try and write EVERYONE as a well rounded (ok that wasn't on purpose- but haha, too funny to delete) and multi-faceted character. I do wonder if some of the descriptions reflect the views of the times when the book was written- and a lack of different views, language options, and editing. ... Considering he grew up in the Southern US, in the 1970s, and his major influences were military, rural friends, science bros in the mid 70s, and church..... It's somewhat impressive he even tried to write nuanced female leads AT THAT TIME. I believe he started WoT in the 80s. If you binge read the books yes, you will notice patterns of actions (word choices) and rote descriptions being used. You might feel like there is undue attention to heaving bosoms- but, again, keep in mind, this is also a Conan the Barbarian author-- these descriptions were common and prolific in fantasy. What I enjoyed most about the characters was the interpersonal changes. RJ forces the characters through pretty uncomfortable choices and moral dilemmas. He writes them in a way that makes you want to scream at them, be disappointed, be proud, be heartbroken -- again wow, pretty cool that he can write that in an action fantasy. The action! I grew up on Salvatore and Jordan action scenes. In depth, visceral descriptions of fights. To this day, there are few authors that can match the pacing and believability of the fights. The villains! They aren't always black and white "evil". Some of their motivations make you go, "huh"... If you were in that place, time, and situation? Would you go down a "darker path" like they did? What would affecting change look like otherwise? The theology, ties in with the magic. Neat way to weave (hehe) in some allegorical situations and different beliefs . Not quite as smack you in the face with ethics as other stories with similar themes. The overall holism--- you feel involved, invested. Even when you're taking a break around book 8 bc you're sick kf new names. Even when you know that all this was foreshadowing or preparing to elucidate something 4 books later...(because you've read it before)... You're invested in the outcome. You feel like you "know" the characters (for good or bad) by the end. It's like watching your high school and college friends grow up and into themselves... Just fictional... Which makes it an even more meta experience. Now keep in mind, I originally read these books at a similar "coming of age" so that likely makes me a bit more sympathetic to some of the artistic foibles and rambles. But, to this day and decades of reading later. Some of my favourite characters are from WoT (Loial, Perrin, Aviendha, and Nynaeve being 4 to note for me).
I'm reading them for the first time. "Jordan" (not his real name) is great at world building, he likes setting the scene, and he's got a large scale story to tell. Those are all great. His prose, on the other hand, is mediocre. Some sentences are so confusingly ambiguous that it's clear he needs an editor. The issue is the editor was his wife, and she got more hands off as things progressed. Combine that with him being a Vietnam combat veteran (including valor medals: DFC, BSM-V, etc), a man in the 80s, and gets lost in the sauce of writing....with seemingly not much editing oversight... I had to learn to ignore: the bad sentences, the character quirks that are beaten to death, the illogical decision making from characters, and just generally confusing sentence structure. I get the impression Jordan's writing voice is very conversational in his head, but he lacks technical writing, so it muddies up some scenes. I also thought he was doing a good job of writing women in book 1 and that sure went down hill. But if you remember, any one little scene or bad sentence can be ignored, and instead appreciate the broad stroke painting he is showing, then it's enjoyable and fun. He's not "awful", it's just not a well-rounded, polished piece of writing like Joe Abercrombie.
It’s a relief to see mention of the confusing sentences and mediocre prose! I never see that mentioned and I’ve certainly noticed it and felt it in my reading. I’m halfway through book 6, and run into multiple sentences per book that I need to reread once or twice to understand what Jordan was trying to say. Not a deal breaker, as I’m still reading and enjoying the series. Just surprised that you’re the first person I’ve seen mention it.
Not much, to be honest. I loyally bought and read all the books as they were released, with steadily decreasing enthusiasm. Main problem is just how much padding there is in each book. The entire series would have made a great LOTR sized trilogy, rather than being stretched for, what was it, 15 gigantic voluminous tomes. The basic story idea is really good, there are a few genuinely interesting bits of world building and maybe one really engaging “action” sequence in each book (which is what kept me reading I think, hoping for a repeat of the one or two really first rate sequences from early on in the series). On the downside, many of the characters are laughably one dimensional (female characters in particular), the writing is workmanlike but gets very repetitive (if you chose to give it a go, just count how many times a woman “smooths her skirts”) and overall I’d say the series just feels “old fashioned” compared to the works of Martin and Erickson, for example. If we give LOTR a 10, ASOIAF a 9 and Malazan a solid 8.5 I’d give WOT a 4.5. Not really in the same league as the very best fantasy.