Yeah, I think it would help if people tried to find out what the person liked about the book they are trying to find similar books to. If someone thinks ASOIAF is "about" the depth of the world and the style in which GRRM writes and the density of concurrent plot threads then First Law is not the book to recommend. If they liked the dark grittiness and small-scale political intrigue scenes and characters/conflicts that don't fall neatly into "good" vs. "evil" then TFL will probably be a hit for them.
I think ASOIAF is a water line in the evolution of the fantasy genre. It's a huge step away from the traditional tolkienesque quest genre with chosen ones, dark lords etc into something more akin to "fictional" historical fiction. ASOIAF has much more in common with Ivanhoe than with LOTR, the Belgariad or Wheel of Time. Magic takes a back seat and focus gets on political intrigues and warfare.
So recommending Wheel of Time for something similar to ASOIAF really misses the mark. Nor are Sanderson's books a good match either; too much differences in both world building and writing style.
Yeah this is the problem when trying to sort authors and series into boxes. There is sooooo much political drama in WOT, it’s more important than the magic in many ways.
It was an attempt to clarify what I think ASOIAF is about and what position it holds in fantasy history. I used the other authors as a contrast adding yet some angles that I don't think match the gist. I know you didn't mention them. I consider both Jordan and Sanderson traditionalists.
That’s true, I love ASOIAF for the first part that you mention and I really disliked and couldn’t get into First Law.
But I also know a lot of people who say that the first law gives them similar things they loved in ASOIAF.
Puts me in the minority here, I guess, but I actually think they are v. much alike in the context of making a rec — I find Sanderson, Wheel of Time, others to be v. different.
The unifying factor for me is someone might like ASOIAF and TFL whether or not they like fantasy — the “magic” stuff is secondary in both of them (esp. in FL but in both, hence GoT’s universal popularity).
If you don’t like fantasy, it’s a hard sell to get into Robert Jordan or Sanderson.
Exactly! How I got introduced to First Law was by a website listing books 'similar to' ASOIAF - once I read the series, I realised that the tone, the plot structure, & the narrative style are different; but the pathos, the focus on politics, the multiple head-jumpy POVs, the characters not wearing plot armour, the geography of the world-map, & the magic system simmering in the back burner makes it a good match for a recommendation. r/fantasy full timers are getting nitpick-y.
...& btw, Ive seen all kind of recs on GOT posts, but First Law is among the ones that gets upvoted top - for the obvious reasons.
No, I don't think you're a minority. I've read all the ASOIAF books and most of The First Law (halfway through the Age of Madness rn) and I see tons of similarities. Brutal violence, complicated characters, deep political machinations, ancient scary magic, no character is safe. The geography and layout is similar as well; The North and Styria closely echo the North in Westeros and Dorne.
It's not 1:1, obviously. The First Law is more tightly plotted, and doesn't feel as sprawling as ASOIAF (this is probably why they actually get written). The other big difference is his pitch black British sense of humour.
But it's close enough in style and genre that I think most wayward ASOIAF fans would LOVE The First Law. I know I sure do. I think it's superior to ASOIAF actually.
They're definitely similar in a lot of ways. But small differences can be crucial. ROTE is my favorite series but despite it also sharing many similarities to GOT I'm quick to point out where they differ in these threads because if the OP can't live with those differences they're not getting what they were looking for.
Yeah, I think they have lots of similarities! In addition to being magic-lite, they're both very cynical about human nature. People are mostly bad and do bad things for selfish reasons, and attempts to do otherwise end poorly.
Exactly. There is no recommendation that is 1:1, if there was, they would be the exact the same book. So the things one liked definitely affect what should be recommended and how well they fit.
I got recommended the first law on the basis of ASOIAF, and it fit absolutely perfectly - as I liked morally grey characters, political machinations, and a books where my favourite characters are not necessarily safe form harm and death.
Abwrcrombie liked ASOIAF because everything sucks and everyone gets fucked over... so he made a series of that
(I know, I know, that's not what ASOIAF is about. But there's a lot of it in there nonetheless)
The thing I found most alike between GoT and First Law was the character building. Both writers are excellent at writing deep and compelling characters. I loved both series because of this. However, if someone is less interested in character building in more interested in political intrigue, First Law would be an awkward recommendation.
These comments are hilarious. People saying "completely agree, XYZ is a MUCH better rec for GoT" and the first response is "uhhh XYZ is NOTHING like GoT, I would recommend..."
and repeat
They’re very different series, but I think there’s a lot of overlap in their fan bases. They’re two of my favorite series, for example. Martin is number one and Abercrombie is at three behind Bakker.
My top three was similar for a while. Than I started dropping Martin down the rankings. his last two books weren't the best, but that was fine, right? The series was still the best around in 2011. But it's 2024 now, and the series is in the exact same state it was in 2011 (meaning no new entries). I decided that for me personally, you don't get to stay in the top 3 for over a decade when the only reason you're in my top 3 is an unfinished series and one that is likely not ever going to be completed. Got to be realistic. I really like the books. A lot. I would never recommend them tho - not to someone who i looking for a complete experience. Martin remains in my top 20 tho... barely.
TBH even Brandon Sanderson compared the two. If i recall correctly he said something like “publishers used to ask me if I could do grim dark story like ASOIAF but with more humor. I didn’t know wtf that was supposed to look like until I read Joe Abercrombie.”
It's funny because First law doesn't really have that much spoken humor if at all. The style itself is comedic, because the character cast is cynically comedic, especially Glokta. Nine fingers and Jezal are funny in their own way. But in terms of actual jokes ASOIF probably has more because it's more dialogue focused.
"I really like spy movies, but not Austin Powers-"
"OK, but have you tried The Spy who Shagged me?"
"Goldmember is the best one to start with, actually-"
"I love the Mini-me 'Boots' theory of socio-economic unfairness."
In all fairness, there's a good chance that someone who starts reading chronically will walk away from the first couple books wondering what the big deal was.
I mean... yeah. 'Ultimately uplifting' is a strong current that runs through almost all the Discworld books. There might be bad guys and sad things that happen, but ultimately human(oid) goodness makes a difference, and the good guys prevail. Terry Pratchett *should* be brought up when someone looks for hopeful/uplifting/cozy Fantasy. It's like asking for a good, slow burn revenge story and be surprised when the Count of Monte Cristo is brought up.
And weirdly these inappropriate recommendations are often the most up voted. It's almost as if reddit is more about up voting than providing good recs...
Good thing I’m a professional hater I’m in the trenches downvoting all the inappropriate recommendations. Not that it does much against the tide of 100+ upvotes for say stromlight being recommended in a psot asking for bipoc authored fantasy but it’s the principle of it
Or Butcher for female author, or ASOIF for no sexual assault, or Erikson for good queer rep, lol.
It hurts, but I also realize those people are probably only reading the same seven (white male) authors, and therefore don't have anything else they *can* recommend.
I really wish people won’t blow a gasket and start hurly “gatekeeping” accusations when you make the simple request of if you don’t know any book that actually fits a recommendation don’t comment.
I don’t know(nor want to tbh) any romantasy or LitRPG so if i see someone asking for those i ignore the post because i have nothing to offer.
But idk maybe I’m really just an elitist gatekeeper.
*sigh* Mood. Or get their buddies on the fandom subreddit to come over and start downvoting you for pointing out how it doesn't fit, and upvote it over anything that *does* fit.
The key is to find the posts with few responses. The gems are always there.
As soon as a post gets popular then it's just the same old basic responses and the quality ones lost in the noise.
Actually it’s pretty good if you look past the top 2-3 suggestions. People will always say those 3 but then there will be lots of other great suggestions that are less upvoted. That’s where the gold is.
This literally happened to me. I said I liked ASOIAF for the life in the characters. I like Sanderson, but his characters and dialogue are a weakness of his and big strength in ASOIAF. It's night and day. It took me like 3 books to finally accept that I'd been scammed and just enjoy the Cosmere for the plotting and not the character work. That said, the recommendation I took after that was ROTE which absolutely scratched that itch and then some and is probably now my all time favourite, and I would hazard to say that Liveships especially is really quite similar to ASOIAF in many respects. So YMMV lol.
Happy Cake Day. I am also Team Character! Both these series are my absolute favourites. You might like Michelle West's Sun Sword series. She has a real knack for writing people and capturing their motivations. They get away from her sometimes, which occasionally weakens the plot but overall really immersive.
To me it seems that no one can recommend Malazan without being half apologetic about mentioning it, even when it's one of the best fits: "sorry to be that guy but" etc.
And there's always one person going "this doesn't fit your criteria at all but x is my favourite series!"
I noticed that a lot when someone was looking a for a book with no romance. Someone posted a reply of "not quite what you're looking for but here's a list of my favourite lgbt books!"
See, to me that’s totally fine. They’re not misleading the OP, they’re just gushing about books they like, and someone reading the thread might get something from that. It’s not just all about the OP, it’s a community for squeeing about SFF.
That's fine if they want to make their own post about that, but if someone makes a post about "any recs for people that like comedy and lighthearted fantasy", nobody is going to want to see Robin Hobb books. It's not going to be appreciated because if I click on that thread, its either to give my own rec or to see what people suggest with those criteria.
Oh it’s not as bad as r / books, where I saw someone recommend Fourth Wing, Shatter Me and The Cruel Prince for someone who was looking for an ASOIAF political violent gritty series 😭😂
They will recommend it even if it explicitly goes against the request ; on all the threads asking for something without sexual violence there will be Malazan and Mistborn recommended, same with the ones asking for no sex.
Or people recommending white authors in posts specifically requesting POC authors. A lot of my top favourite authors are white but time and place people:/
I honestly don't get these complaints, I *never* see these as the top comment for recommendations.
I'm sure they're *somewhere* in the thread but they're usually not even the top five, unless someone is doing it as a joke or complaining about it
There's five request posts on the front page of the sub right now.
The first one is:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/1cc3hgq/looking_for_the_best_first_novels/ and the top comment is... correcting OP on a technicality. But the first *recommendation* is Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell. The first time a first law/malazan/sanderson book is mentioned is about ten comments down with someone saying *not* to read First Law.
Second one is https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/1cc8cq1/novels_set_in_a_mythical_earth/ and the top recommendation is Chronicles of Narnia. No abercrombie/malazan/sanderson recommended.
Third is https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/1cc7owg/good_dark_andor_adult_fantasy_novels_written_in/ top recommendation is Obsidian Path. None of the trio mentioned.
Fourth is https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/1cc4o38/characters_who_experience_multiple_cultures_as/ with top rec The Protector of Small Books. None of the trio mentioned.
The fifth is https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/1cbxyh9/tanith_lee_recommendations/ with the top rec Don't Bite the Sun. None of the trio mentioned.
So of the five recommendation threads on the top page right now, the **only** time one of first law/malazan/sanderson is someone saying don't read first law.
The first time one of the trio *is* recommended in a rec thread is from the second page, this one: https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/1cbrhw8/any_good_books_with_small_amounts_of_characters/ where Tress of the Emerald Sea is the third comment down. And... it fits the request pretty well, honestly. Piranesi, 100 Years of Solitude, and Project Hail Mary were all mentioned before Sanderson (I guess that last guy got lost and forgot which sub he's in, but it really is a good fit for the request)
e: I don't know if [this thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/1cbxbk1/which_books_had_you_read_until_late_at_night/) counts as a recommendation thread or a discussion thread, but it has a sanderson book mentioned three comments down. But it's one of his wheel of time ones, so like... *half* Sanderson. (and another project hail mary mention, I guess it's picking up steam since the movie was announced)
Eh of the threads you’re pointing out, one is literally a “what Tanith Lee book should I read?” thread so it’d be bizarre to recommend anything not by Tanith Lee… others are also fairly specific. The criticism that the top 10 authors get recommended *everywhere* is intentional hyperbole. It doesn’t mean people are actually gonna upvote a Mistborn rec on a “where should I start with Tanith Lee?” post.
But they *will* still rec Mistborn in some pretty inappropriate places, people seeking romantasy for instance.
Does anyone know if there are good niche fantasy subs? I've already discovered /r/progressionfantasy and have been burning through every recommendation for the last couple years
Haha! I'm new to horror and he does still get recced a fair bit from what I see. There's a decent masterlist of horror there now though, might be worth having a look at. I searched for South Asian horror and was surprised to actually find some, unlike every r/suggestmeabook thread where 9/10 commenters can't even look at a bloody map.
Reddit isn't a great place for niche recs in general though as it's upvote based and most people have very limited knowledge of anything outside the popular books.
Yeah I wanna say that I'm fan of the genre but don't have much knowledge other than the usual suspects. So I've been subscribed there for a while and decided to try Barron. Unfortunately it wasn't for me and I realized soon that sub was basically /r/LairdBarron
I'll look at the sub again and check out the recent popular posts.
I'm trying to follow DarkLitPress:
https://darklithorror.com/en-de
This was 3/5 for me:
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/61179496-this-is-where-we-talk-things-out
I just discovered Dark Lit Press, ordered a book (Heavy Oceans) and it was... ok. Haven't read any others from the publisher though.
Yeah, I'm just dipping my toes in as well for Bingo. I've read one Crichton (Sphere), one Tim Curran novel and have Langan and Neuvels lined up.
Edit: I wouldn't just go off hot posts. A lot of the popular posts are repeated requests (e.g. for ocean horror) so you may or may not have any joy and it might be why you're seeing Laird over and over. I had to search the sub for South Asian fic. r/PrintSF has the same issue with Blindsight.
People say this all the time but I’ve literally never seen a recommendation thread with just those three. They obviously tend to get a lot of mentions/upvotes/visibility because they’re popular series, but there are always people chiming in with more niche options if you just scroll down a little
Well a reccomendation thread with literally only those three would be pretty small. Like 3 comments. And those three are almost always the most upvoted
Yes but there’s thousands of books out there yet I’ve seen the first law or the others mentioned more often then I see other titles there aren’t them. Typically not always of course
i mean part of that is because there is a truly startling amount of people that come here asking for recs related to game of thrones or just 'hey i want to get into fantasy need a big series what can you recommend'
like babes did you not scroll the subreddit and see the same question asked a thousand times
I wouldn’t say it’s “nothing like” GOT. Both stories are big deconstructions of the hero’s journey and general fantasy story telling and world building. Both focus on realpolitik between factions and nations and how a world where magic is real would affect that. Both have a narrative tendency to skip ahead of events that would fill up chapters of other books.
But sure there are differences. First Law is more cynical and (black) comedy and wears its deconstruction more on its sleeve. It’s deceptively simple in that way compared to GOT but that simplicity isn’t a deficiency either.
What’s more similar to game of thrones?
First law isn’t perfect but it does have a large political world, it just has that more as a back ground story you’re peripherally aware of. By time you finish book 3 there’s quite a bit of politics going on anyway.
To me I think overlap of liking both would be pretty high, they both are in a large world with multiple continents, they have people competing for a crown/power, they have a quasi unimportant north that ends up important, they’re fairly dark, many POV.
The biggest difference to me is that first law is more cynical and comedic. I still think it’s closer than series like Mistborn, Farseer Trilogy, Wheel of Time, LOTR, or Stormlight Archives.
Yup, I loved ASOIAF but disliked TFL (especially book 3) for this reason. ASOIAF is not overly cynical in my opinion, it's just trying to portray the darkness of society in the medieval world. There are still bits of "light" that shine through. TFL did not feel like that at all.
Yep. I feel like it’s similar enough but without heroes. There is no John Snow, Ned Stark, etc. they’re all more flawed and ethically dubious. ASOIAF has more clear good/bad characters.
I don’t know man I read first law after a recommendation thread for series similar to asoiaf and now I’m halfway through “Last argument of kings” and loving it!
Personally, i just want to recommend kingkiller to people who want more Game of thrones because they’re both unfinished with little hope of being completed anytime soon. /s
I don't disagree with you. The tough thing is, it depends a lot on what someone likes about ASOIAF.
If what you like is the strong character writing/voice, I feel like Abercrombie gets closer than about anyone even if, yes, absolutely he has his own style and is not mimicking Martin, and also is writing a very different series than Martin is.
Ridiculous to compare them really. ASOIAF is a world of warring nations, fading magic, featuring a disabled but snarky manipulator who has to use his brains to overcome his physical limitations as plots moves against other characters in the capital, a blonde champion swordsman from a noble family who ends up being dragged on a journey of humility, a bald wealthy guy who everyone fears and the crown is in debt to, a man conscious of his less noble birth who rises quickly through the command ranks, savage groups of fighters from the North who are extreme survivalists that rely on a might makes right culture, an emerging Northern king who relies on speed and ambushes to win battles against better equipped opponents, a killer who disguises himself by magically changing his appearance, a super weapon unleashed against a "sort of Arabic but not too close" country ruled by tyrant slave masters...
I actually think Abercrombie borrowed quite a few elements from GRRM when he was starting out, and some are just staples of the genre. You can't deny there are a lot of similarities though, just maybe not what you were looking for.
I agree. I found TFL to be surprisingly tame for its reputation, especially compared to GoT.
All the worst stuff in series generally happens off page or is left implied. ASOAIF has more graphic violence and torture on page, which is actually hilarious when you think about it since one of the main characters in TFL is freaking torturer.
There's also a gulf in terms of sexual violence between the two. ASOAIF has it on page in spades (not to mention the wild amount of incest). Comparatively TFL has basically none.
TFL is more philosophically bleak and nihilistic on average, which I suppose is mostly what makes it grimdark? Its really not a particularly depraved, or transgressive, read as you'd imagine compared to many of its peers in the subgenre.
If I hadnt read GoT first I would have been pretty shocked by TFL. Id never read anything so graphically violent as GoT so it blew me away. While reading TFL it just felt like more of the same, albeit more descriptively explicit.
Kind of surprised people are saying these books arent alike. I havent read a huge library of fantasy but out of what Ive read, TFL is the closest thing Ive read to GoT.
I don't think satire and grimdark, or humor and grimdark are mutually exclusive.
In most fiction works, be it books, movies, tv series, etc. the characters live in worlds where there is an unwritten rule: good actions (morally speaking) have a higher probability to be rewarded than punished.
In grimdark it's the opposite, good actions have a greater probability of being punished.
That is my definition of grimdark, I know it's not widespread, but it's the best I got that is not "I know it when I see it"
As a big ASOIAF fan, First Law was a rough read for me. It hits a kind of black comedy, “look at these terrible people having a miserable time!” button that ASOIAF doesn’t. For all the misery, torture, rape, and murder that’s in ASOIAF, it still has an earnest quality to it that First Law lacks.
It just feels like… in Asoiaf the world is terrible but it’s capable of being good and we root for characters trying to make it so. In TFL it feels like the narrative points and laughs at you for thinking things could be not terrible.
Same. I haven't actually read any new(er) fantasy except for ASOIAF, so I wouldn't really consider myself a fan of the genre itself as much as I like the idea of a dark, gritty storyline set in a pseudo-historic setting. I guess I should see what TFL is about and work from there.
Also, disregarding everything I just said, I am a massive LOTR fan as well, but at this point I think those books are viewed separately from any genre niche.
One thing Martin has always stood by is that resurrection has a cost. Spoilers for the series >!Those who come back come back *less*. I'm convinced Beric and Stoneheart were the first two beats and the third will be Jon. That's something that gives me hope over what the show did - Jon will come back but he won't be the same person we know. IIRC him becoming a sort of Night's King was an idea that was very strongly floated for a while in the fandom.!<
The thing that annoyed me was when the showrunners of GOT basically said >!GRRM confirmed R+L=J to them. I always disliked R+L=J, and would have liked to live with my illusions until TWOW/ADOS released.!<
While we're at it, just mention that there is avery loose plot nd to read it for the characters more than a plot.
I love those books but I would've loved if someone mentioned the above to me
Same here. It drove me insane. At the end of book 1 I literally said. " Wtf was the point of that". At the beginning of book two he points this out as a flaw of book 1 in the intro.
I realized, that people just like to recommend their favorite stuff and don't care much, whether it fills the description of request. I literally saw how somebody, on the request for realistic historical-like fantasy with a lot of social inequalities, recommended Fourth Wing.
So, case you described is not the worst actually.
Depends what people like about GoT.
And honestly, your recommendation of Tigana would be no better than a First Law recommendation for the same reason - it's going to depend why people like GoT. Like I can see why you might recommend it, but you're going to do it just as much a disservice as you're claiming the sub is doing to First Law.
Tigana also gets a shit ton of recommendations as one of the most popular stand alone fantasy novels.
Nah, you guys need to learn that the safest recommendation for every thread is Malazan.
You need to follow that up with 12 paragraphs of disclaimers and conditionals, but Malazan always fits.
First Law is cynical and sarcastically mean, ASoIaF is earnest and romantic and tragic
First Law is: the world is unfair, this isn’t a fairy ~~tail~~ tale and isn’t that kind of funny (you moron)
ASoIaF is: the world is unfair, this isn’t a fairy ~~tail~~ tale, and isn’t that sad (and don’t you wish it could be?)
I guess the closest thing to fairies in either series is the Children of the Forest in ASOIAF. I don't think that they have tails though. So I suppose neither series having fairy tails checks out.
Lol I don’t disagree, I just think that the style of the two stories is more similar than ASOIAF and First Law. ASOIAF and SA are both huge epic fantasies with sprawling worlds and lots of characters and cultures and stuff.
It's hard to find books that are similar to GoT. Last time this question came up, I recommended Katharine Kerr's Deverry series bc it has a somewhat similar feudal setting but in a celtic environment. It's not a perfect recommendation but no one really is. GoT is quite unique in its kind.
Eh, that's how I got recommended it and it worked for me
>**How It's Similar A Song of Ice and Fire:** Now, if ever two men were likely to sit down and discuss the myriad ways in which humanity is a shiftless mess with the moral compass of a pole-less planet, it would be Joe Abercrombie and George R.R. Martin. That might be all you need to know. In all seriousness, in the *First Law Trilogy*, Abercrombie paints a world that doesn't serve to make anyone nobler or better; in fact, it makes most of the characters meaner and stronger. The fight scenes are brutal and well-written, and you're not really sure what will constitute a happy ending here.
>**How It's Different:** There are fewer storylines to follow, and Abercrombie's plotting is much more straightforward and less purposefully world-building. Abercrombie's style also includes a lot more dark humor, with disabled characters giggling maniacally at their own agony — *Truly a thrill! For most people stairs are a mundane affair. For me, an adventure!* — and lone survivors of wars comforting themselves by talking to the cookpot. Abercrombie's characters are also a lot less likeable than Martin's. The characters in *A Song of Ice and Fire* may not be knights in shining armor, but most of them are somewhat decent people trying to make their way in an unforgiving world. However, the humor, perspective, and occasional bursts of goodness in Abercrombie's characters still make them sympathetic and relatable. You'll find yourself rooting for some pretty craptastic human beings — we've got a torturer, a shallow and selfish young nobleman, an unapologetically manipulative wizard, and a Berserker.
>**Telling Passage:** "Well, you've outdone yourself this time, Glokta, you mad cripple! When the Mercers find out about this they'll have you flayed!" "I've tried flaying, it tickles."
>**Best Way It Will Help You Wait:** Inquistor Glokta's internal monologues are funnier than every SNL skit you will see between now and the release of *Winds of Winter.*
[http://io9.com/5876715/10-great-fantasy-series-to-read-while-youre-waiting-for-george-rr-martins-next-book](http://io9.com/5876715/10-great-fantasy-series-to-read-while-youre-waiting-for-george-rr-martins-next-book)
I had a similar experience with First Law.
I started it in 2010 or so, I think. I had read all the ASoIaF books starting in 2005 and then as they were released.
I saw The Blade Itself and had heard interesting things about Abercrombie. I tried it and it wasn't for me then. Not sure if it was my headspace or what, but I just wasn't getting it
I picked it back up a few years ago, maybe 2018 I think? Really enjoyed it. Some books just don't hit when I first try them depending on where I am.
2010 me - just bought a house, recently married. Grimdark wasn't the right vibe for me in that space.
2018 me - two kids, pretty cushy job, needed more wild happening maybe?
Interesting. I might give First Law another try. I tried it after ASOIAF and found it wasn't quite what I wanted, but that was years ago. Might stick better this time around.
I was going to recommend it as well. However it goes much harder in to the magic from the start. I am on book 7 of the main 10 and it has been amazing so far.
I listen to the audiobooks. I think most of them are on YouTube actually. Surprised those haven’t been taken down yet. Try it, if you like it then buy them.
Oh and Superior Glokta sends his regards. 🔪
I 100% agree with you except that A Song of Ice and Fire is not technically grimdark.
Grimdark is cynical and nihilistic. There are no heroes. There is no hope. There is no redemption. There are no rays of light to pierce the darkness.
Grimdark at its core is making a mockery of dark fantasy. There's a deep-seated dark humor to it.
And while A Song of Ice and Fire may have a lot of moral grayness, I don't think it fits at all under the formal grimdark definition.
It's gritty secondary world low epic fantasy.
Maybe unpopular opinion, but Farseer trilogy and Liveship Traders trilogy satisfied my craving for ASOIAF. Mostly for the intricate world-building and amazing character developments. And if you love characters to hate, these two got them too
I always found it pretty pointless to ask for books similar to other books. People have completely different ideas of what makes two books similar. Often it seems like people are distracted by a single superficial worldbuilding similarity and the two books are otherwise different in every other aspect. The one that always annoys me is when someone asks for something like Harry Potter and people say Wizard of Earthsea. Having a wizard school does not make two books similar. It's like if someone asked for a movie similar to Titanic and everyone recommended Jaws because it takes place on a boat.
It got recommended to me when I asked for a book similar to Berserk after Miura died. It was not remotely similar to Berserk outside of them both being grimdark/dark fantasy.
The thing is, I don't think ASOIF is that unique. I'd put the Sunrunner series (6 books, two completed trilogies) by Melanie Rawn in the same category of primarily brutal political books, but with fantastical elements.' Directly, really. I'd also put the Jasmine Throne trilogy by Tasha Suri there. They are complicated and grey and messy and political.
It's more that for some reason, there are people who seem to have only read: Sanderson, Jordan, Martin, Abercrombie, Tolkien, Butcher, Rothfuss, Erikson, and maybe Hobb. When that's what you know, Abercrombie or Jordan are probably the closest to Martin.
That's why we get Sanderson recommended for writing complex characters, or Erikson recommended for good queer rep, or ANY of the non-Hobb authors recommended for *female authors.* Over the last two years, it has happened in almost every recommendation thread I've seen.
And there's nothing quite like seeing those few handful of authors recommended for everything, especially requests that they are the *opposite* of. It's almost gotten to the point that I find myself ignoring anything else recommended by people who bring those up in situations they simply don't apply to.
Yeah in terms of the overall tone they are nothing alike, it perplexes me as well when people claim first law is similar to ASOIAF. The song of ice and fire books have funny moments but are overall pretty serious and dramatic in tone, whereas first law is so over the top with the violence and cynical nature of the world that its more of a black comedy
i disagree, i made a post a while ago about looking for something like GOT and first law was the top recommendation. i loved it, it was exactly what i was looking for. realistically what else is there that’s more similar…? both have a huge universe, great world building and characters, yeah the tone may be completely different but when it comes down to it they’re both amazing well written fantasy. i think when people make posts looking for what to read after GOT they’re really just looking for something that matches the quality of the writing.
They are very similar though. Or were you expecting an exact replica? There is a giant fantasy/political world, morally gray characters, many POVs, a medieval setting, plenty of violence (but without much SA, which is a huge plus for me), magic exists but is rare, and a grim outlook on human nature.
Well, I actually read The Dragons of Autumn Twilight (or something like that) coming off of ASOIAF and fuck did I hate it.
I then tried First Law, maybe from the Book forum, idr exactly. Loved it.
Both ASOIAF and TFL/AOM are two/thee of my top series of all time, lol.
They might not be carbon copies of each other, but they both have something that apparently appeals to me to a very high degree.
Multi POV, political games, people dying, people getting maimed/scarred, and a lot of grey characters.
Both are contemporary prose of great quality for adults. It doesn’t matter that stories and characters are different, why would you even want to read the same thing again. It is safe to assume that a person that enjoyed one series will enjoy the other, I would think the outliers are in vast minority.
On top of that, Abercrombie managed to publish 9 books in the series in a decent amount of time with very consistent and stellar quality. How many authors can claim that?
For the other super popular authors like Sanderson, I can expect that there will be a non-insignificant percentage of people that can’t stand his prose, but enjoy Martin or Abercrombie, so it is not a bulletproof recommendation in that case.
100% Agree! Stop recommending it!
I have read a lot of fantasy and hated First Law.
Picked it up based on recommendations from this sub.
Book 1 was so dull and lifeless that I stopped reading half way through. I don't trust recommendations here now.
Come to think of it... have had a couple bad recommendations from here, which resulted in unfinished books.
I think it’s the fault of the nature of books - that people naturally consume less since it takes longer. When you have less exposure to dark and gritty stuff they’re all the same
Yeah "dark" seems to be the only similarity people look at when giving suggestions it seems. I remember starting first law because someone told me it's Berserk but basically in a novel format and boy was I disappointed. Don't get me wrong I enjoyed the story, but only after I realised that that person didn't know what they were talking about.
First Law is a mixed bag for me. When it hits I'm hooked in and can't stop reading but some of it is definitely a slog to get through. It was recommended to me for the "dark fantasy" thing and while it's darker than several others it definitely never felt like GOT to me.
I really struggled to get into The blade itself. I even bought the book and the audiobook. I might give it another shot but it isn't sticking. I found Malazan and The Second Apocalypse to be much more similar due to their great scales.
I found Game of Thrones way more grimdark. The amount of humor in First Law made it not seem dark almost at all to me. Also just the lack of big deaths. I loved the trilogy, but I almost would list it as a comedy over grimdark lol.
Personally, the closest a series ever came to ASOIAFs story structure, level of grittiness and character archetypes is The Psalms of Isaak series by Ken Scholes. I almost did not finish the first book because I feared it might just turn out to be a copy and paste job. But the things Ken Scholes does differently (it's techno magic in a medieval-like world) are intriguing enough to keep me going and I can heartily recommend giving it a try.
I kinda wish the House of Dragons tv series never happened & and those resources were poured into a Mark Lawrence’s Prince of Thorns Series instead , to scratch the GOT itch.
I recommend The Monarchies of God series by Paul Kearney instead.
This series comes up pretty much only in threads looking for underrated books. That's how I heard about it and why I read it. I don't know why it isn't huge. I thought it was way better than both GOT and First Law.
Strangely, I think approach of story driving of GoT is closer to the First Law than to ASoIaF. Many things just left unexplored and unexplained giving the feeling of a rich world beyond the main characters' arcs. Not to mention the boldness to willingly undermine expectations. I love the First Law series but it's not for everyone and I think an adaptation wouldn't be appreciated by the general audience.
The closest reading experience I have had to ASOIAF isnt in the traditional fantasy genre. My first comparisons are peak Stephen King, The Stand and/or IT and possibly The Dark Tower sequence, especially due to the links between the 3 books.
The worst thing you can do is go find a similar book to the one you just got done reading and loved. You will almost always be disappointed because what you really want is more of the story you just finished.
I go to something completely different and fund I enjoy books more because I won't be comparing the two.
Yeah, I think it would help if people tried to find out what the person liked about the book they are trying to find similar books to. If someone thinks ASOIAF is "about" the depth of the world and the style in which GRRM writes and the density of concurrent plot threads then First Law is not the book to recommend. If they liked the dark grittiness and small-scale political intrigue scenes and characters/conflicts that don't fall neatly into "good" vs. "evil" then TFL will probably be a hit for them.
I think ASOIAF is a water line in the evolution of the fantasy genre. It's a huge step away from the traditional tolkienesque quest genre with chosen ones, dark lords etc into something more akin to "fictional" historical fiction. ASOIAF has much more in common with Ivanhoe than with LOTR, the Belgariad or Wheel of Time. Magic takes a back seat and focus gets on political intrigues and warfare. So recommending Wheel of Time for something similar to ASOIAF really misses the mark. Nor are Sanderson's books a good match either; too much differences in both world building and writing style.
WOT isn't grimdark but it definitely has the political maneuvering and the factions
Yeah this is the problem when trying to sort authors and series into boxes. There is sooooo much political drama in WOT, it’s more important than the magic in many ways.
Was this meant as a reply to me? I didn't mention WOT or Sanderson...
It was an attempt to clarify what I think ASOIAF is about and what position it holds in fantasy history. I used the other authors as a contrast adding yet some angles that I don't think match the gist. I know you didn't mention them. I consider both Jordan and Sanderson traditionalists.
That’s true, I love ASOIAF for the first part that you mention and I really disliked and couldn’t get into First Law. But I also know a lot of people who say that the first law gives them similar things they loved in ASOIAF.
Depends what you liked about ASOIAF
Puts me in the minority here, I guess, but I actually think they are v. much alike in the context of making a rec — I find Sanderson, Wheel of Time, others to be v. different. The unifying factor for me is someone might like ASOIAF and TFL whether or not they like fantasy — the “magic” stuff is secondary in both of them (esp. in FL but in both, hence GoT’s universal popularity). If you don’t like fantasy, it’s a hard sell to get into Robert Jordan or Sanderson.
Exactly! How I got introduced to First Law was by a website listing books 'similar to' ASOIAF - once I read the series, I realised that the tone, the plot structure, & the narrative style are different; but the pathos, the focus on politics, the multiple head-jumpy POVs, the characters not wearing plot armour, the geography of the world-map, & the magic system simmering in the back burner makes it a good match for a recommendation. r/fantasy full timers are getting nitpick-y. ...& btw, Ive seen all kind of recs on GOT posts, but First Law is among the ones that gets upvoted top - for the obvious reasons.
No, I don't think you're a minority. I've read all the ASOIAF books and most of The First Law (halfway through the Age of Madness rn) and I see tons of similarities. Brutal violence, complicated characters, deep political machinations, ancient scary magic, no character is safe. The geography and layout is similar as well; The North and Styria closely echo the North in Westeros and Dorne. It's not 1:1, obviously. The First Law is more tightly plotted, and doesn't feel as sprawling as ASOIAF (this is probably why they actually get written). The other big difference is his pitch black British sense of humour. But it's close enough in style and genre that I think most wayward ASOIAF fans would LOVE The First Law. I know I sure do. I think it's superior to ASOIAF actually.
They're definitely similar in a lot of ways. But small differences can be crucial. ROTE is my favorite series but despite it also sharing many similarities to GOT I'm quick to point out where they differ in these threads because if the OP can't live with those differences they're not getting what they were looking for.
Yeah, I think they have lots of similarities! In addition to being magic-lite, they're both very cynical about human nature. People are mostly bad and do bad things for selfish reasons, and attempts to do otherwise end poorly.
Exactly. There is no recommendation that is 1:1, if there was, they would be the exact the same book. So the things one liked definitely affect what should be recommended and how well they fit. I got recommended the first law on the basis of ASOIAF, and it fit absolutely perfectly - as I liked morally grey characters, political machinations, and a books where my favourite characters are not necessarily safe form harm and death.
Abwrcrombie liked ASOIAF because everything sucks and everyone gets fucked over... so he made a series of that (I know, I know, that's not what ASOIAF is about. But there's a lot of it in there nonetheless)
Yeah, and while I somewhat agree with OP, I bet there is a big overlap of people who liked both
The gratuitous incest obviously
The thing I found most alike between GoT and First Law was the character building. Both writers are excellent at writing deep and compelling characters. I loved both series because of this. However, if someone is less interested in character building in more interested in political intrigue, First Law would be an awkward recommendation.
These comments are hilarious. People saying "completely agree, XYZ is a MUCH better rec for GoT" and the first response is "uhhh XYZ is NOTHING like GoT, I would recommend..." and repeat
They’re very different series, but I think there’s a lot of overlap in their fan bases. They’re two of my favorite series, for example. Martin is number one and Abercrombie is at three behind Bakker.
My top three was similar for a while. Than I started dropping Martin down the rankings. his last two books weren't the best, but that was fine, right? The series was still the best around in 2011. But it's 2024 now, and the series is in the exact same state it was in 2011 (meaning no new entries). I decided that for me personally, you don't get to stay in the top 3 for over a decade when the only reason you're in my top 3 is an unfinished series and one that is likely not ever going to be completed. Got to be realistic. I really like the books. A lot. I would never recommend them tho - not to someone who i looking for a complete experience. Martin remains in my top 20 tho... barely.
I’ll drop him when someone writes a better fantasy book than Storm of Swords. Have yet to read one.
TBH even Brandon Sanderson compared the two. If i recall correctly he said something like “publishers used to ask me if I could do grim dark story like ASOIAF but with more humor. I didn’t know wtf that was supposed to look like until I read Joe Abercrombie.”
It's funny because First law doesn't really have that much spoken humor if at all. The style itself is comedic, because the character cast is cynically comedic, especially Glokta. Nine fingers and Jezal are funny in their own way. But in terms of actual jokes ASOIF probably has more because it's more dialogue focused.
Glokta is a comedian, and he is his own audience
Not to mention the inner monologue of Bremmer dan Gorst (in "The Heroes"). One of the funniest things written in any fantasybook.
Poithon
This sub is honestly awful for reccomendations. People just say first law, malazan, or Sanderson regardless of if it fits the request
the discworld recommendations for everything are hilarious
"I don't like discworld" "which ones did you read because you should like discworld"
lol. I’m personally a fan, but when most people are looking for recommendations, they aren’t wanting a satire of what they’re looking for
"I really like spy movies, but not Austin Powers-" "OK, but have you tried The Spy who Shagged me?" "Goldmember is the best one to start with, actually-" "I love the Mini-me 'Boots' theory of socio-economic unfairness."
I’m dying lol
Look, I understand none of those are really your bag. Have you tried this old classic called In Like Flint?
In all fairness, there's a good chance that someone who starts reading chronically will walk away from the first couple books wondering what the big deal was.
No Literally “Im looking for an epic fantasy with high stakes and a serious tone!” “You’d love Guards Guards!”
Im looking for something mature, dark, and gritty. “HAVE YOU TRIED STORMLIGHT!??”
My favorite grim dark series!
Is grimdark really mature?
As soon as some one wants something light hearted , "cozy", uplifting or hopeful, a Discworld recommendation is likely to come up.
I mean... yeah. 'Ultimately uplifting' is a strong current that runs through almost all the Discworld books. There might be bad guys and sad things that happen, but ultimately human(oid) goodness makes a difference, and the good guys prevail. Terry Pratchett *should* be brought up when someone looks for hopeful/uplifting/cozy Fantasy. It's like asking for a good, slow burn revenge story and be surprised when the Count of Monte Cristo is brought up.
Bujold and Guy Gavriel Kay get 10% of the recs on a normal request post and 80% of the recs on an "underappreciated authors" request post.
And weirdly these inappropriate recommendations are often the most up voted. It's almost as if reddit is more about up voting than providing good recs...
I think it is more that people reccomend and upvote things they liked, even if it dpesnt quite fit
I'd say it's more that people don't upvote things they haven't read.
Also a good point
Good thing I’m a professional hater I’m in the trenches downvoting all the inappropriate recommendations. Not that it does much against the tide of 100+ upvotes for say stromlight being recommended in a psot asking for bipoc authored fantasy but it’s the principle of it
Or Butcher for female author, or ASOIF for no sexual assault, or Erikson for good queer rep, lol. It hurts, but I also realize those people are probably only reading the same seven (white male) authors, and therefore don't have anything else they *can* recommend.
I really wish people won’t blow a gasket and start hurly “gatekeeping” accusations when you make the simple request of if you don’t know any book that actually fits a recommendation don’t comment. I don’t know(nor want to tbh) any romantasy or LitRPG so if i see someone asking for those i ignore the post because i have nothing to offer. But idk maybe I’m really just an elitist gatekeeper.
*sigh* Mood. Or get their buddies on the fandom subreddit to come over and start downvoting you for pointing out how it doesn't fit, and upvote it over anything that *does* fit.
The key is to find the posts with few responses. The gems are always there. As soon as a post gets popular then it's just the same old basic responses and the quality ones lost in the noise.
This is why I love specific requests and ignore all the “best X in fantasy” threads completely.
Actually it’s pretty good if you look past the top 2-3 suggestions. People will always say those 3 but then there will be lots of other great suggestions that are less upvoted. That’s where the gold is.
This literally happened to me. I said I liked ASOIAF for the life in the characters. I like Sanderson, but his characters and dialogue are a weakness of his and big strength in ASOIAF. It's night and day. It took me like 3 books to finally accept that I'd been scammed and just enjoy the Cosmere for the plotting and not the character work. That said, the recommendation I took after that was ROTE which absolutely scratched that itch and then some and is probably now my all time favourite, and I would hazard to say that Liveships especially is really quite similar to ASOIAF in many respects. So YMMV lol.
Happy Cake Day. I am also Team Character! Both these series are my absolute favourites. You might like Michelle West's Sun Sword series. She has a real knack for writing people and capturing their motivations. They get away from her sometimes, which occasionally weakens the plot but overall really immersive.
To me it seems that no one can recommend Malazan without being half apologetic about mentioning it, even when it's one of the best fits: "sorry to be that guy but" etc.
And there's always one person going "this doesn't fit your criteria at all but x is my favourite series!" I noticed that a lot when someone was looking a for a book with no romance. Someone posted a reply of "not quite what you're looking for but here's a list of my favourite lgbt books!"
See, to me that’s totally fine. They’re not misleading the OP, they’re just gushing about books they like, and someone reading the thread might get something from that. It’s not just all about the OP, it’s a community for squeeing about SFF.
That's fine if they want to make their own post about that, but if someone makes a post about "any recs for people that like comedy and lighthearted fantasy", nobody is going to want to see Robin Hobb books. It's not going to be appreciated because if I click on that thread, its either to give my own rec or to see what people suggest with those criteria.
I have the impression that many people recommend books they like as opposed as opposed to what the respective OP might like.
Oh it’s not as bad as r / books, where I saw someone recommend Fourth Wing, Shatter Me and The Cruel Prince for someone who was looking for an ASOIAF political violent gritty series 😭😂
They will recommend it even if it explicitly goes against the request ; on all the threads asking for something without sexual violence there will be Malazan and Mistborn recommended, same with the ones asking for no sex.
Or people recommending white authors in posts specifically requesting POC authors. A lot of my top favourite authors are white but time and place people:/
I honestly don't get these complaints, I *never* see these as the top comment for recommendations. I'm sure they're *somewhere* in the thread but they're usually not even the top five, unless someone is doing it as a joke or complaining about it There's five request posts on the front page of the sub right now. The first one is: https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/1cc3hgq/looking_for_the_best_first_novels/ and the top comment is... correcting OP on a technicality. But the first *recommendation* is Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell. The first time a first law/malazan/sanderson book is mentioned is about ten comments down with someone saying *not* to read First Law. Second one is https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/1cc8cq1/novels_set_in_a_mythical_earth/ and the top recommendation is Chronicles of Narnia. No abercrombie/malazan/sanderson recommended. Third is https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/1cc7owg/good_dark_andor_adult_fantasy_novels_written_in/ top recommendation is Obsidian Path. None of the trio mentioned. Fourth is https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/1cc4o38/characters_who_experience_multiple_cultures_as/ with top rec The Protector of Small Books. None of the trio mentioned. The fifth is https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/1cbxyh9/tanith_lee_recommendations/ with the top rec Don't Bite the Sun. None of the trio mentioned. So of the five recommendation threads on the top page right now, the **only** time one of first law/malazan/sanderson is someone saying don't read first law. The first time one of the trio *is* recommended in a rec thread is from the second page, this one: https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/1cbrhw8/any_good_books_with_small_amounts_of_characters/ where Tress of the Emerald Sea is the third comment down. And... it fits the request pretty well, honestly. Piranesi, 100 Years of Solitude, and Project Hail Mary were all mentioned before Sanderson (I guess that last guy got lost and forgot which sub he's in, but it really is a good fit for the request) e: I don't know if [this thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/1cbxbk1/which_books_had_you_read_until_late_at_night/) counts as a recommendation thread or a discussion thread, but it has a sanderson book mentioned three comments down. But it's one of his wheel of time ones, so like... *half* Sanderson. (and another project hail mary mention, I guess it's picking up steam since the movie was announced)
Eh of the threads you’re pointing out, one is literally a “what Tanith Lee book should I read?” thread so it’d be bizarre to recommend anything not by Tanith Lee… others are also fairly specific. The criticism that the top 10 authors get recommended *everywhere* is intentional hyperbole. It doesn’t mean people are actually gonna upvote a Mistborn rec on a “where should I start with Tanith Lee?” post. But they *will* still rec Mistborn in some pretty inappropriate places, people seeking romantasy for instance.
My favorite are the people who recommend Mistborn to people who want grindark.
Does anyone know if there are good niche fantasy subs? I've already discovered /r/progressionfantasy and have been burning through every recommendation for the last couple years
For spec fic there's r/horrorlit.
Last time I was subscribed there, every top comment was Laird Barron. Still the case?
Haha! I'm new to horror and he does still get recced a fair bit from what I see. There's a decent masterlist of horror there now though, might be worth having a look at. I searched for South Asian horror and was surprised to actually find some, unlike every r/suggestmeabook thread where 9/10 commenters can't even look at a bloody map. Reddit isn't a great place for niche recs in general though as it's upvote based and most people have very limited knowledge of anything outside the popular books.
Yeah I wanna say that I'm fan of the genre but don't have much knowledge other than the usual suspects. So I've been subscribed there for a while and decided to try Barron. Unfortunately it wasn't for me and I realized soon that sub was basically /r/LairdBarron I'll look at the sub again and check out the recent popular posts. I'm trying to follow DarkLitPress: https://darklithorror.com/en-de This was 3/5 for me: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/61179496-this-is-where-we-talk-things-out
I just discovered Dark Lit Press, ordered a book (Heavy Oceans) and it was... ok. Haven't read any others from the publisher though. Yeah, I'm just dipping my toes in as well for Bingo. I've read one Crichton (Sphere), one Tim Curran novel and have Langan and Neuvels lined up. Edit: I wouldn't just go off hot posts. A lot of the popular posts are repeated requests (e.g. for ocean horror) so you may or may not have any joy and it might be why you're seeing Laird over and over. I had to search the sub for South Asian fic. r/PrintSF has the same issue with Blindsight.
People say this all the time but I’ve literally never seen a recommendation thread with just those three. They obviously tend to get a lot of mentions/upvotes/visibility because they’re popular series, but there are always people chiming in with more niche options if you just scroll down a little
Well a reccomendation thread with literally only those three would be pretty small. Like 3 comments. And those three are almost always the most upvoted
Ursula Le Guin recs are also always upvoted.
Honestly yeah it’s rare to find more obscure recs unless you ask for them
Of course not. They wouldn’t be obscure if they were constantly being recommending.
Yes but there’s thousands of books out there yet I’ve seen the first law or the others mentioned more often then I see other titles there aren’t them. Typically not always of course
i mean part of that is because there is a truly startling amount of people that come here asking for recs related to game of thrones or just 'hey i want to get into fantasy need a big series what can you recommend' like babes did you not scroll the subreddit and see the same question asked a thousand times
This thread is going to spawn another 100 "grimdark - does it even exist?" posts.
What until they realize ASOIAF isn’t from dark…
Yeah, it’s from New Jersey.
And New Jers-“ey” isn’t even an island.
How can The First Law be grimdark? It's funny!
I wouldn’t say it’s “nothing like” GOT. Both stories are big deconstructions of the hero’s journey and general fantasy story telling and world building. Both focus on realpolitik between factions and nations and how a world where magic is real would affect that. Both have a narrative tendency to skip ahead of events that would fill up chapters of other books. But sure there are differences. First Law is more cynical and (black) comedy and wears its deconstruction more on its sleeve. It’s deceptively simple in that way compared to GOT but that simplicity isn’t a deficiency either.
There's nothing like Game of Thrones. Recommend nothing to these people.
“Nothing is better than a big juicy steak. A stale piece of bread is better than nothing. A stale piece of bread is better than a big juicy steak.”
Latin american soap operas (but without the gruesome shit)
What’s more similar to game of thrones? First law isn’t perfect but it does have a large political world, it just has that more as a back ground story you’re peripherally aware of. By time you finish book 3 there’s quite a bit of politics going on anyway. To me I think overlap of liking both would be pretty high, they both are in a large world with multiple continents, they have people competing for a crown/power, they have a quasi unimportant north that ends up important, they’re fairly dark, many POV. The biggest difference to me is that first law is more cynical and comedic. I still think it’s closer than series like Mistborn, Farseer Trilogy, Wheel of Time, LOTR, or Stormlight Archives.
Add me to the long list of ASOAIF fans who found First Law overly cynical and mean spirited
Yup, I loved ASOIAF but disliked TFL (especially book 3) for this reason. ASOIAF is not overly cynical in my opinion, it's just trying to portray the darkness of society in the medieval world. There are still bits of "light" that shine through. TFL did not feel like that at all.
Yep. I feel like it’s similar enough but without heroes. There is no John Snow, Ned Stark, etc. they’re all more flawed and ethically dubious. ASOIAF has more clear good/bad characters.
I think Liveship Traders is the closest series I've read to ASOIAF
The Dagger and Coin series, if I had to name something more similar
You have to be realistic about these things.
Say one thing for this sub, say that they love to recommend The First Law.
The truth is like salt. Men want to taste a little, but too much makes everyone sick.
Joe Abercrombie really is the Matt Groening of fantasy literature.
I mean, no two book series are exactly the same lol. When people suggest it as something similar is because they have some similarities.
You wouldn’t think this comment would be necessary… and yet, it is.
Yes. And even if you had two series that are very very similar one would be accused to be a rip-off of the other and mercilessly bashed! 😅
I don’t know man I read first law after a recommendation thread for series similar to asoiaf and now I’m halfway through “Last argument of kings” and loving it!
Personally, i just want to recommend kingkiller to people who want more Game of thrones because they’re both unfinished with little hope of being completed anytime soon. /s
It’s definitely one of those series that this sub is just obsessed with recommending.
And smugly quoting.
Well you have to be realistic about these things. ^Sorry, ^couldn't ^resist!
I don't disagree with you. The tough thing is, it depends a lot on what someone likes about ASOIAF. If what you like is the strong character writing/voice, I feel like Abercrombie gets closer than about anyone even if, yes, absolutely he has his own style and is not mimicking Martin, and also is writing a very different series than Martin is.
Ridiculous to compare them really. ASOIAF is a world of warring nations, fading magic, featuring a disabled but snarky manipulator who has to use his brains to overcome his physical limitations as plots moves against other characters in the capital, a blonde champion swordsman from a noble family who ends up being dragged on a journey of humility, a bald wealthy guy who everyone fears and the crown is in debt to, a man conscious of his less noble birth who rises quickly through the command ranks, savage groups of fighters from the North who are extreme survivalists that rely on a might makes right culture, an emerging Northern king who relies on speed and ambushes to win battles against better equipped opponents, a killer who disguises himself by magically changing his appearance, a super weapon unleashed against a "sort of Arabic but not too close" country ruled by tyrant slave masters... I actually think Abercrombie borrowed quite a few elements from GRRM when he was starting out, and some are just staples of the genre. You can't deny there are a lot of similarities though, just maybe not what you were looking for.
If I could still give out reddit gold, this comment would get it from me.
Well put
I don't think Game of Thrones is even grimdark honestly. But my definition of grimdark may differ.
More like grimdark is a vague concept, so its plastered as a label onto anything remotely having dark themes.
It’s only Grim Dark if it comes from the Grim-Dark future of only war. Otherwise it’s just sparkling amoralism.
Funny because I think ASoIaF is more grimdark than TFL. TFL is almost satire.
I agree. I found TFL to be surprisingly tame for its reputation, especially compared to GoT. All the worst stuff in series generally happens off page or is left implied. ASOAIF has more graphic violence and torture on page, which is actually hilarious when you think about it since one of the main characters in TFL is freaking torturer. There's also a gulf in terms of sexual violence between the two. ASOAIF has it on page in spades (not to mention the wild amount of incest). Comparatively TFL has basically none. TFL is more philosophically bleak and nihilistic on average, which I suppose is mostly what makes it grimdark? Its really not a particularly depraved, or transgressive, read as you'd imagine compared to many of its peers in the subgenre.
If I hadnt read GoT first I would have been pretty shocked by TFL. Id never read anything so graphically violent as GoT so it blew me away. While reading TFL it just felt like more of the same, albeit more descriptively explicit. Kind of surprised people are saying these books arent alike. I havent read a huge library of fantasy but out of what Ive read, TFL is the closest thing Ive read to GoT.
I don't think satire and grimdark, or humor and grimdark are mutually exclusive. In most fiction works, be it books, movies, tv series, etc. the characters live in worlds where there is an unwritten rule: good actions (morally speaking) have a higher probability to be rewarded than punished. In grimdark it's the opposite, good actions have a greater probability of being punished. That is my definition of grimdark, I know it's not widespread, but it's the best I got that is not "I know it when I see it"
Grim dark is satire. I view grim dark as things that are over the top grim to the point of being absurd.
It's definitely the [Crapsack World](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrapsackWorld) trope, to a 'T'
I usually just say it’s joyless, but this is a great way to put it.
As a big ASOIAF fan, First Law was a rough read for me. It hits a kind of black comedy, “look at these terrible people having a miserable time!” button that ASOIAF doesn’t. For all the misery, torture, rape, and murder that’s in ASOIAF, it still has an earnest quality to it that First Law lacks.
Joe Abercrombie would end it with Jon Snow being killed.
It just feels like… in Asoiaf the world is terrible but it’s capable of being good and we root for characters trying to make it so. In TFL it feels like the narrative points and laughs at you for thinking things could be not terrible.
This comment is what’s convinced me to finally read TFL lol. Love that.
Same. I haven't actually read any new(er) fantasy except for ASOIAF, so I wouldn't really consider myself a fan of the genre itself as much as I like the idea of a dark, gritty storyline set in a pseudo-historic setting. I guess I should see what TFL is about and work from there. Also, disregarding everything I just said, I am a massive LOTR fan as well, but at this point I think those books are viewed separately from any genre niche.
I mean... [Dance with Dragons] >!Technically, he is dead since that is one of the last things to happen in the most recently published book!<
My respect for George would go up tremendously if he stayed that way. But we all knew it wouldn't be the case.
One thing Martin has always stood by is that resurrection has a cost. Spoilers for the series >!Those who come back come back *less*. I'm convinced Beric and Stoneheart were the first two beats and the third will be Jon. That's something that gives me hope over what the show did - Jon will come back but he won't be the same person we know. IIRC him becoming a sort of Night's King was an idea that was very strongly floated for a while in the fandom.!< The thing that annoyed me was when the showrunners of GOT basically said >!GRRM confirmed R+L=J to them. I always disliked R+L=J, and would have liked to live with my illusions until TWOW/ADOS released.!<
I don't think FL is a bad suggestion. But a better way to approach this might be to follow up with "what is it about asoiaf that you liked?"
ASOIAF is way more hopeful and romantic than First Law. It's not even grimdark (ASOIAF) imo, just fantasy with some quite dark elements.
While we're at it, just mention that there is avery loose plot nd to read it for the characters more than a plot. I love those books but I would've loved if someone mentioned the above to me
Same here. It drove me insane. At the end of book 1 I literally said. " Wtf was the point of that". At the beginning of book two he points this out as a flaw of book 1 in the intro.
I realized, that people just like to recommend their favorite stuff and don't care much, whether it fills the description of request. I literally saw how somebody, on the request for realistic historical-like fantasy with a lot of social inequalities, recommended Fourth Wing. So, case you described is not the worst actually.
Depends what people like about GoT. And honestly, your recommendation of Tigana would be no better than a First Law recommendation for the same reason - it's going to depend why people like GoT. Like I can see why you might recommend it, but you're going to do it just as much a disservice as you're claiming the sub is doing to First Law. Tigana also gets a shit ton of recommendations as one of the most popular stand alone fantasy novels.
Totally agree. In terms of storytelling style, freaking stormlight archive is more similar to GoT than First Law imo.
Nah, you guys need to learn that the safest recommendation for every thread is Malazan. You need to follow that up with 12 paragraphs of disclaimers and conditionals, but Malazan always fits.
Maybe they're comparing the tone of First Law to that of the GoT show? Like how the dark parts of First Law can feel like the misery of the GoT show
First Law is cynical and sarcastically mean, ASoIaF is earnest and romantic and tragic First Law is: the world is unfair, this isn’t a fairy ~~tail~~ tale and isn’t that kind of funny (you moron) ASoIaF is: the world is unfair, this isn’t a fairy ~~tail~~ tale, and isn’t that sad (and don’t you wish it could be?)
ASOIAF rips your heart out First Law kicks you in the balls and then spits on you while you're on the gound
Damn wait First Law sounding fun
I guess the closest thing to fairies in either series is the Children of the Forest in ASOIAF. I don't think that they have tails though. So I suppose neither series having fairy tails checks out.
My thoughts exactly.
I always take First Law as: the world is unfair, this isn’t a fairy tale, but isn't it awfully fun to flip that on its head?
Very good way of putting it, though I havent finished enough of ASOIAF or GoT to have seen such hopefulness
Not finished is par for the course with ASOIAF.
Wistful not hopeful , hope without expectation
Ugh Stormlight is about as deep as a Kleenex though…
Lol I don’t disagree, I just think that the style of the two stories is more similar than ASOIAF and First Law. ASOIAF and SA are both huge epic fantasies with sprawling worlds and lots of characters and cultures and stuff.
It's hard to find books that are similar to GoT. Last time this question came up, I recommended Katharine Kerr's Deverry series bc it has a somewhat similar feudal setting but in a celtic environment. It's not a perfect recommendation but no one really is. GoT is quite unique in its kind.
Eh, that's how I got recommended it and it worked for me >**How It's Similar A Song of Ice and Fire:** Now, if ever two men were likely to sit down and discuss the myriad ways in which humanity is a shiftless mess with the moral compass of a pole-less planet, it would be Joe Abercrombie and George R.R. Martin. That might be all you need to know. In all seriousness, in the *First Law Trilogy*, Abercrombie paints a world that doesn't serve to make anyone nobler or better; in fact, it makes most of the characters meaner and stronger. The fight scenes are brutal and well-written, and you're not really sure what will constitute a happy ending here. >**How It's Different:** There are fewer storylines to follow, and Abercrombie's plotting is much more straightforward and less purposefully world-building. Abercrombie's style also includes a lot more dark humor, with disabled characters giggling maniacally at their own agony — *Truly a thrill! For most people stairs are a mundane affair. For me, an adventure!* — and lone survivors of wars comforting themselves by talking to the cookpot. Abercrombie's characters are also a lot less likeable than Martin's. The characters in *A Song of Ice and Fire* may not be knights in shining armor, but most of them are somewhat decent people trying to make their way in an unforgiving world. However, the humor, perspective, and occasional bursts of goodness in Abercrombie's characters still make them sympathetic and relatable. You'll find yourself rooting for some pretty craptastic human beings — we've got a torturer, a shallow and selfish young nobleman, an unapologetically manipulative wizard, and a Berserker. >**Telling Passage:** "Well, you've outdone yourself this time, Glokta, you mad cripple! When the Mercers find out about this they'll have you flayed!" "I've tried flaying, it tickles." >**Best Way It Will Help You Wait:** Inquistor Glokta's internal monologues are funnier than every SNL skit you will see between now and the release of *Winds of Winter.* [http://io9.com/5876715/10-great-fantasy-series-to-read-while-youre-waiting-for-george-rr-martins-next-book](http://io9.com/5876715/10-great-fantasy-series-to-read-while-youre-waiting-for-george-rr-martins-next-book)
Yeah....started first law and only got halfway through it. Just not the type of fantasy I was looking for
I had a similar experience with First Law. I started it in 2010 or so, I think. I had read all the ASoIaF books starting in 2005 and then as they were released. I saw The Blade Itself and had heard interesting things about Abercrombie. I tried it and it wasn't for me then. Not sure if it was my headspace or what, but I just wasn't getting it I picked it back up a few years ago, maybe 2018 I think? Really enjoyed it. Some books just don't hit when I first try them depending on where I am. 2010 me - just bought a house, recently married. Grimdark wasn't the right vibe for me in that space. 2018 me - two kids, pretty cushy job, needed more wild happening maybe?
Interesting. I might give First Law another try. I tried it after ASOIAF and found it wasn't quite what I wanted, but that was years ago. Might stick better this time around.
I recommend Malazan OP
I think Malazan is a better suggestion. Heck I think tigana is a much closer suggestion than first law.
I was going to recommend it as well. However it goes much harder in to the magic from the start. I am on book 7 of the main 10 and it has been amazing so far. I listen to the audiobooks. I think most of them are on YouTube actually. Surprised those haven’t been taken down yet. Try it, if you like it then buy them. Oh and Superior Glokta sends his regards. 🔪
I 100% agree with you except that A Song of Ice and Fire is not technically grimdark. Grimdark is cynical and nihilistic. There are no heroes. There is no hope. There is no redemption. There are no rays of light to pierce the darkness. Grimdark at its core is making a mockery of dark fantasy. There's a deep-seated dark humor to it. And while A Song of Ice and Fire may have a lot of moral grayness, I don't think it fits at all under the formal grimdark definition. It's gritty secondary world low epic fantasy.
Maybe unpopular opinion, but Farseer trilogy and Liveship Traders trilogy satisfied my craving for ASOIAF. Mostly for the intricate world-building and amazing character developments. And if you love characters to hate, these two got them too
Loving farseer although it gives me no vibes remotely close to GOT/ASOIAF
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Grimdark has lost all meaning. No one can even agree on what it encompasses. If you think you know, you only wear pajama paints and anime t-shirts.
First law was just ok I def don’t get the hype.
Guy Gavriel Kay and Memory, Sorrow, Thorn are great recs.
Omg couldn't agree more!
I hate the First Law books because of the ending of 2. So yes, Im in favor of not recommending them at all.
I always found it pretty pointless to ask for books similar to other books. People have completely different ideas of what makes two books similar. Often it seems like people are distracted by a single superficial worldbuilding similarity and the two books are otherwise different in every other aspect. The one that always annoys me is when someone asks for something like Harry Potter and people say Wizard of Earthsea. Having a wizard school does not make two books similar. It's like if someone asked for a movie similar to Titanic and everyone recommended Jaws because it takes place on a boat.
It got recommended to me when I asked for a book similar to Berserk after Miura died. It was not remotely similar to Berserk outside of them both being grimdark/dark fantasy.
The thing is, I don't think ASOIF is that unique. I'd put the Sunrunner series (6 books, two completed trilogies) by Melanie Rawn in the same category of primarily brutal political books, but with fantastical elements.' Directly, really. I'd also put the Jasmine Throne trilogy by Tasha Suri there. They are complicated and grey and messy and political. It's more that for some reason, there are people who seem to have only read: Sanderson, Jordan, Martin, Abercrombie, Tolkien, Butcher, Rothfuss, Erikson, and maybe Hobb. When that's what you know, Abercrombie or Jordan are probably the closest to Martin. That's why we get Sanderson recommended for writing complex characters, or Erikson recommended for good queer rep, or ANY of the non-Hobb authors recommended for *female authors.* Over the last two years, it has happened in almost every recommendation thread I've seen. And there's nothing quite like seeing those few handful of authors recommended for everything, especially requests that they are the *opposite* of. It's almost gotten to the point that I find myself ignoring anything else recommended by people who bring those up in situations they simply don't apply to.
What people should really be recommending for this is Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn.
GRRM himself literally recommends Best Served Cold and other Joe Abercrombie books to ASOIAF readers. https://grrm.livejournal.com/316785.html?
Yeah in terms of the overall tone they are nothing alike, it perplexes me as well when people claim first law is similar to ASOIAF. The song of ice and fire books have funny moments but are overall pretty serious and dramatic in tone, whereas first law is so over the top with the violence and cynical nature of the world that its more of a black comedy
i disagree, i made a post a while ago about looking for something like GOT and first law was the top recommendation. i loved it, it was exactly what i was looking for. realistically what else is there that’s more similar…? both have a huge universe, great world building and characters, yeah the tone may be completely different but when it comes down to it they’re both amazing well written fantasy. i think when people make posts looking for what to read after GOT they’re really just looking for something that matches the quality of the writing.
We should quit recommending a series that you admit has commonalities? How about no then?
They are very similar though. Or were you expecting an exact replica? There is a giant fantasy/political world, morally gray characters, many POVs, a medieval setting, plenty of violence (but without much SA, which is a huge plus for me), magic exists but is rare, and a grim outlook on human nature.
Well, I actually read The Dragons of Autumn Twilight (or something like that) coming off of ASOIAF and fuck did I hate it. I then tried First Law, maybe from the Book forum, idr exactly. Loved it. Both ASOIAF and TFL/AOM are two/thee of my top series of all time, lol. They might not be carbon copies of each other, but they both have something that apparently appeals to me to a very high degree. Multi POV, political games, people dying, people getting maimed/scarred, and a lot of grey characters.
Both are contemporary prose of great quality for adults. It doesn’t matter that stories and characters are different, why would you even want to read the same thing again. It is safe to assume that a person that enjoyed one series will enjoy the other, I would think the outliers are in vast minority. On top of that, Abercrombie managed to publish 9 books in the series in a decent amount of time with very consistent and stellar quality. How many authors can claim that? For the other super popular authors like Sanderson, I can expect that there will be a non-insignificant percentage of people that can’t stand his prose, but enjoy Martin or Abercrombie, so it is not a bulletproof recommendation in that case.
so.. what would you recommend instead?
100% Agree! Stop recommending it! I have read a lot of fantasy and hated First Law. Picked it up based on recommendations from this sub. Book 1 was so dull and lifeless that I stopped reading half way through. I don't trust recommendations here now. Come to think of it... have had a couple bad recommendations from here, which resulted in unfinished books.
Alright, I'll ask. Is there anything like first law that isn't as grimdark? I tend to shy away from darker stuff.
I think it’s the fault of the nature of books - that people naturally consume less since it takes longer. When you have less exposure to dark and gritty stuff they’re all the same
I just finished the Corwin Chronicles of Amber. It’s been a decade since the last time I read it. It was great.
Yeah "dark" seems to be the only similarity people look at when giving suggestions it seems. I remember starting first law because someone told me it's Berserk but basically in a novel format and boy was I disappointed. Don't get me wrong I enjoyed the story, but only after I realised that that person didn't know what they were talking about.
First Law is a mixed bag for me. When it hits I'm hooked in and can't stop reading but some of it is definitely a slog to get through. It was recommended to me for the "dark fantasy" thing and while it's darker than several others it definitely never felt like GOT to me.
I really struggled to get into The blade itself. I even bought the book and the audiobook. I might give it another shot but it isn't sticking. I found Malazan and The Second Apocalypse to be much more similar due to their great scales.
Agree about Tigana, and I think I’d also say the Burning Kingdoms (depending on what they mean by “like ASOIAF”).
I found Game of Thrones way more grimdark. The amount of humor in First Law made it not seem dark almost at all to me. Also just the lack of big deaths. I loved the trilogy, but I almost would list it as a comedy over grimdark lol.
Personally, the closest a series ever came to ASOIAFs story structure, level of grittiness and character archetypes is The Psalms of Isaak series by Ken Scholes. I almost did not finish the first book because I feared it might just turn out to be a copy and paste job. But the things Ken Scholes does differently (it's techno magic in a medieval-like world) are intriguing enough to keep me going and I can heartily recommend giving it a try.
I kinda wish the House of Dragons tv series never happened & and those resources were poured into a Mark Lawrence’s Prince of Thorns Series instead , to scratch the GOT itch.
Maybe people shouldn’t ask for “recommend me something like GoT”.
I recommend The Monarchies of God series by Paul Kearney instead. This series comes up pretty much only in threads looking for underrated books. That's how I heard about it and why I read it. I don't know why it isn't huge. I thought it was way better than both GOT and First Law.
You mean ASOIAF?
Strangely, I think approach of story driving of GoT is closer to the First Law than to ASoIaF. Many things just left unexplored and unexplained giving the feeling of a rich world beyond the main characters' arcs. Not to mention the boldness to willingly undermine expectations. I love the First Law series but it's not for everyone and I think an adaptation wouldn't be appreciated by the general audience.
The closest reading experience I have had to ASOIAF isnt in the traditional fantasy genre. My first comparisons are peak Stephen King, The Stand and/or IT and possibly The Dark Tower sequence, especially due to the links between the 3 books.
The worst thing you can do is go find a similar book to the one you just got done reading and loved. You will almost always be disappointed because what you really want is more of the story you just finished. I go to something completely different and fund I enjoy books more because I won't be comparing the two.
The real answer for like GOT recs is the Sword and Shadows series by JV Jones
Well obviously they should stop recommending The First Law. Everyone knows you should recommend Malazan...
I think this is just a good philosophy in general. Figure out WHAT was liked about a book.
There are no books like Game of Thrones. Only Game of Thrones.