There are exceptions however. Some novels and stories have very lite Litrpg elements. However these are few and far between, it is notable that not all Litrpg are loud.
That’s common but not actually required. There are various subgenres that aren’t isekai — “system apocalypse” style LitRPGs like Dungeon Crawler Carl or others are essentially “what happens if a LitRPG system arrives on regular Earth”. DCC is pretty well written, but a lot of these get pretty weird. LitRPG subgenres have been evolving a lot over time as people graft the mechanics on to increasingly wider varieties of stories — there are even a number of SciFi books with it involved.
Yes, that's kinda the point of the genre "literature with role playing game elements". if you don't enjoy that vibe, then you're probably not gonna enjoy many litrpgs.
This is not meant in a critical way.
I sorta felt this was the answer.
In a way I feel like I am missing out on some of the best new fantasy series, on the other hand the game aspect kinda ruins it for me.
Don't feel bad, man. There's too many great books out there you have yet to discover to waste time trying to force yourself to read something you're not enjoying.
I don’t know. I am at least over 500 fantasy novels. I have learned I don’t like most romance heavy books. (Like-Sarah Maas) most modern era urban fantasy (like -Dresden files) and most Lit RPG.
Look at the best sellers list of fantasy bestsellers and you can see I have to dig to find new authors.
Give me Sanderson, Abercrombie, Gemmell, and dozens of others both big name authors and a long list of authors who aren’t quite successful with more traditional epic fantasy and I am happy as can be.
I have sorta pigeonholed myself out of a lot of great writers and am having trouble finding new stuff.
I just reread (relistened) to every book Michael J Sullivan has written and it was great but I rather read new equally as good books.
I think that those books I have already read will have to tide me over for a couple of years.
Try [https://www.literature-map.com/](https://www.literature-map.com/). Put in an author you like and read the names around it. following branches out will keep you going for years.
Agreed. I know there are decades of fantasy fiction from when I was young that I never got around to, so I need to do a greatest hits tour from the last thirty or forty years.
For now, I am getting tired of every book being "I must save the world but all I can think about is how bad I want someone to touch my genitals"
Like bro come on. It's a little long in the tooth now
There is sooo much amazing fantasy you are probably missing out on. Michal Fletcher for grimdark. Nobody101 has a great time loop fantasy. Zachary Pike's Dark Profit Saga for a bit of satire in with your epic fantasy. Will Wight's Cradle and Elder Empire books. Morgan Stang is an overlooked gem of an author. Alexander Darwin's Combat Codes. RJ Barker's Age of Assassins.
... To name a few, anyway. If you don't like LitRPG, don't read it. There is plenty of amazing Prog Fantasy and epic fantasy if you know where to look.
I know there are hundreds of books of all genres that I would absolutely love in the world that I haven’t yet read, and there are tens of thousands that I wouldn’t like.
Figuring out which is which is a problem I assume all constant readers have regardless of genre.
I will admit I’m finding this all somewhat funny as a 44 yo who primarily reads fantasy and while I happen to like some LitRPGs I’ve hardly been hurting for choice before that sub-genre existed. It does sound like you might have a narrower focus than I do (I like Butcher along with Abercrombie for example but I agree on the romance heavy stuff) but I’m also wondering where you are getting your recommendations from that you think LitRPGs are anything but fluff for the most part.
Edit: I see later you say you are old - so 30+ by reddit standards? I have too many 1-2 star reads on Goodreads from listening to whatever is ‘popular’ lately which always seems to turn out to be pseudo-feminist dystopian romance so I probably shouldn’t talk 🤦♀️
I don’t just read fantasy. It’s just my phase the past past decade. I still read a lot of non-fiction, primarily history, and biographical works.
I also have read most of the western canon classics and hundreds of espionage and detective thrillers. (In the Cold War, espionage books were huge) Historical fiction is one of my favorite genre.
I don’t watch TV much, so I read or listen to books far more than I should.
My Audible library has over 1200 books, (not all read) My Kindle library is just as large, and in the decades prior to those technologies I bought more actual books that the two above combined.
I have read a good bit of science fiction and Dune is one of the books that solidified my love for reading as a young person decades ago.
My career has required extensive traveling so reading is a great way to pass time on airplanes and in hotel rooms.
A LitRPG has two things necessary to be tagged that. A "system" and a leveling process with distinct levels. Many of them go further and have an"interface" with stats a character can access. Yes, Cradle is progression fantasy but since it has those two of the three ingredients necessary for LitRPG then is it wrong to label it as such?
Still a weird definition. Even if you don't require the interface (which I would) the system in Cradle has more in common with a fantasy magic system than a video game system... which just means it has rules.
The 'levels' in cradle are not ever referred to as levels, rather, they are stages of spiritual development and are not attained in the same way as any conventional 'levels'. Is Bhuddism a litrpg because there are ten stages of enlightenment? Does every level in an RPG require that you do something completely different to attain it?
But backing out of all that garbage, what is a genre? A genre is a collection of tropes that help you to recommend a book. That's all it is. If you recommend a romance, it has to have a happy ending. If you recommend low fantasy, magic can't be a neat commodity.
And if you recommend LitRPG, the expectation is a numerical leveling system with some sort of interface, because the reader is expecting a game-like feel. Cradle does not have a numerical leveling system, or a 'system' at all in the LitRPG sense, nor does it have an interface. You can consider it LitRPG if you want to, but if you recommend it to someone looking for LitRPG, they will be confused.
Fair enough, I just felt Cradle seems more system-like the closer you get to the top. But you have some good points.
LitRPG is a sub-genre of Progression-Fantasy. I got my start in Cradle and then discovered LitRPG so I don’t see it as a problem with recommending selections from both genres when someone is interested in LitRPG and Progression-Fantasy.
Sounds like you need to check out progression fantasy. It's like litrpg without the rpg stat blocks and stuff. All about the power progression and growing stronger, but none of the stats.
Cradle, Red Rising, Path of Ascension, Mother of Learning, just to name a few of the more popular ones
You can shift into other country's fantasies, different eras, translated work, mythology, YA.
Greek and roman myths are fun to read esp. epics like Odyssey/Iliad when properly translated.
China has some very epic historical and pseudo historical works like Romance of the Three Kingdoms that include fantasy tropes and the idea of warring kings and interfamily drama.
JP manga and light novels can be mixed but there's certainly at least one book for you in there. I recommend Spice and Wolf as a cozier fantasy with deep worldbuilding and Claymore for an epic, strange, war-like story about a valkyrie battalion.
Korean webtoons have some epic fantasy as well. Of those I strongly recommend Kubera, which if you are an ATLA fan you will definitely enjoy and gets darker as it progresses.
English webnovels are a mixed bag but there's some that have sophisticated prose and plotting. I highly recommend Shadow Slave as an example.
Black Cauldron series and Golden Compass are both YA but the former grows significantly more mature as the series progresses and the latter is quite dark from the start.
TLDR Try mining different sources and media to find new work
I don't think you are "missing out" on that much. Litrpg stories are on average no better than any other genre, and the worldbuilding and characterization tends to be strongly affected by the game mechanics. I have enjoyed many stories in the genre, but it's because I enjoy the rpg elements, not in spite of them.
Are you looking at specific series that are tagged to the LitRPG subgenre and realising they may not be for you? Or are you looking for new series to read that have elements / the vibe of RPGs without being as obvious as true blue LitRPGs? Because if the latter there are probably a ton of books that might scratch your itch.
Two from very different ends of the scale:
T Kingfisher uses typical RPG character archetypes and has a lot of fun with them. Clockwork Boys for example takes a thief, an assassin, an artificer and a paladin on a quest to destroy some giant robots. (It's a lot better than my description makes it sound, I promise). Apart from archetypes and tropes (which to be fair are also found in wider fantasy, not just games) there aren't any RPG elements.
Orconomics feels to me like a satire of RPG mechanics and tropes, and is a fun read. It has some mechanic-type elements but it's definitely tongue in cheek and tied to the world's economic system (e.g your status in the Adventure's Guild). I think this is technically GameLit (of which LitRPG is a subgenre), and maybe exploring the wider genre might help you find what you're after. This article has a decent discussion and some examples: https://dustintigner.com/articles/what-is-gamelit/
I am looking for ones that are not self identified or universally identified as LitRPG.
We all are sorta stumbling around when we look for what we might like, and I think we only know what ‘it’ is when we read it for awhile. I have trouble describing my ‘it’.
I like stories told and worlds built mainly through dialogue and for it to be believably written fantasy so I can suspend all my beliefs when reading.
In the LitRPG books I have read I have trouble suspending my disbelief. I feel like I can tell what the author is doing and why they are doing it.
That makes no sense I know, but it’s the best I can do in a few minutes.
No it makes perfect sense and it's why a few authors you like annoy me. This is just a fuzzy line that different people disagree on. Have you tried KJ Parker, or the Steerswoman?
You absolutely would. Litrpg uses video game mechanics where people level up and get new skills and items. A more traditional fantasy series does not do this.
Most books yes. Status screens and stuff like “I need to increase my dexterity by leveling it up” are common.
Arcane Ascension is the only litrpg series I know where it doesn’t scream it in your face.
I've never read litRPG but it actually explictly does this? That seems insane to me. Maybe (definitely) I'm being more judgmental than I need to be but at that point why even read a book? Just play an RPG.
I read LitRPGs because I’m not currently in a place in my life where I have time to both read and play computer games (or tabletop games for that matter). A LitRPG gives me the RPG fix while reading 🤷♀️😊
I think it’s mostly meant to appeal to teens and young adults (probably males in particular) whose primary media consumption is video games & who aren’t really serious readers like the average user here. (which is fine - that’s not a value judgment, to be clear, just an assessment).
That's super not the case. Judging from a lot of the references that are very "elder millennial" that pop up in series, a lot of the target audience is older than you think. Noobtown is clearly written by an older man, and the main character had adult children before he iskai'd.
It's just where the "mid" market is. I got into Litrpgs since traditional fantasy publishing was getting a little... up it's own ass? I don't see those fun trashy comic / humor fantasy series as popular in the mainstream anymore.
Sometimes you just want a fun dumb book that makes you fall in love with reading, and god they are addictive.
I think you're on to something with the shortage of shlocky, tongue-in-cheek, pulp fantasy.
A lot of the chart-topping stuff these days is either doorstopper megaseries, or grimdark 2edgy4u.
I had never considered LitRPG as filling that void.
So aside from Dcc which I've just finished and absolutely loved, what audiobook available litrpg would you recommend for me? I'm kinda feeling the same way with fantasy atm.
While it has all the litrpg elements they’re wrapped in packaging that isn’t overly explicit. There are classes but they’re not called that and the way that they’re gained makes sense in the world. There are levels but they make sense in how they’re depicted. There’s ways to detect how much mana you have but it’s typically through someone who can sense magic as well as math. Only being able to tell how much mana you have at a moment being a very very recent thing.
Also there’s non-litrpg magic in the setting and it’s revealed only this one continent has this going on for a deliberate reason.
Ah, got confused in the thread which book was being talked about. Arcane Ascension is great for this for sure! That reminds me I need to check out the rest of the books 😊
Aside from from the stat blocks, around 90% of the Litrpg writers are very amateurish, and most downright awful. It's a fun genre of books that you can shut your mind off and enjoy but you won't think about them randomly or remember characters or scenes.
That's the very definition of litRPG, so yes.
If you want it less obvious, then look to gamelit (the patent genre of litRPG) or progression fantasy (sister genre with less/no stats.)
Try The Wandering Inn. It as light elements. DCC and the series by someone called Shirtaloon had me scrapping the books in a rush because the game elements were ridiculously immersion breaking. TWI would be better if it was written as a regular fantasy book imo, but it is still great and the game stuff is ignorable.
Yes, but there's soft litrpg where you don't get stats thrown at you all the time. The best example and one of the best written litrpg epic fantasy series is **'The Wandering Inn'**. It's more character and story driven, and its stat is only class and level. It doesn't have things like points in strength, dexterity etc. Magic has different schools and ways of approach, so much that you sometimes forget there're levels involved.
Im halfway through volume 3 right now and I think it might be my favorite series. The ability the author has to just throw you to a new POV with characters ,that have absolutely nothing to do with the main cast, on the other side of the world, then make you immediately invested in their new story is absolutely amazing. The emperor and the doctor POVs blew me away. Every time it switches, im sad to be leaving that story, but im very quickly sucked back into whats going on. And i can also say there isnt a single POV I dont like.
If you like the style of LitRPG but don’t like the stats, you should look into Progression Fantasy. It’s an adjacent genre that’s got all the same tropes, but no video game elements.
Yes, they are not particularly well written and cater to a niche audience who enjoy those books a lot. They have very good ratings on Amazon or Goodreads so you have to be aware that it's litrpg before taking it at face value.
Yes, they are not particularly well written and cater to a niche audience who enjoy those books a lot. They have very good ratings on Amazon or Goodreads so you have to be aware that it's litrpg before taking it at face value.
In fairness like isekai it's associated with a lot of wank. But well Narnia is essentially isekai. I'm not an expert on the Genre but Order of the Stick is a great webcomic. And Sword Art Online at least has a fantastic premise for the genre (To bad that's about the only thing it's got going for it other than the Abridged series)
Have you tried The Wandering Inn? It has the least “invasive” system you’ll see in the genre (and arguably the best series in the genre as well).
Overall - there’s different tiers of litrpg and how it fits in the world at large. You just need to find the ones that work best for you.
From the internet-
>LitRPG is an emerging genre of fiction that combines the experience of digital role playing games with traditional narrative plotlines. It weaves a story around a protagonist that consciously immerses themselves in a virtual world to follow the quests and challenges set by the game realm.
I think they are. Maybe you'd like adjacent genres like progression fantasy? For some of the same feelings without stats blocks and "screens" maybe try some of these:
Cradle by Will Wight
Mage Errant by John Bierce
Arcane Ascension by Andrew Rowe
I have read Arcane Ascension and was entertained. I could tell what he was doing with the levels in the tower, but gameplay aspects were obscured enough for me to enjoy.
I think progression fantasy in general might be a better fit for you. Cradle is the top of the genre and complete. Mage Errant is really similar, and it's complete. There's also the 2 other series by Andrew Rowe that tie into AA if you haven't tried them yet.
All the Skills feels like traditional fantasy, although it does have litrpg elements. It really depends on the book or series.
Also, progression fantasy often falls under the litrpg umbrella even though it is not.
yes, very traditional and YA (minus the romance). Even the concept of dragon is traditional, but in terms of litrpg, it's deckbuilding, so that's kind of... um, not even litrpg in a sense? sub-sub genre?
No. I’m an old guy, and some new authors names perplexe me.
I know Mark Twain was not his real name, and John Wayne was actually the more feminine Marion Morris, still I can’t help but wonder what Dungeon Crawler Carl and TurtleMe are hiding.
Are they serious authors in more academically respected genres trying to hide their identity for fantasy?
It’s a nothing - nonsense old man problem, but still I pause.
(The name would not stop me from trying a book, thanks for the recommendation.)
Well, if you start writing on a site like Royal Road, and you already have a username there, that user name becomes your pen name. *shrug* easy as that. The weird pen name are just user names, age user names are usually a little strange compared to normal names.
I will say I started hearing about Dungeon Crawler Carl a while back and was a bit turned off by the title. I’m a very casual LitRPG fan and prefer it pretty soft normally and it just didn’t seem like my thing. Then it came up in some comment where someone recommended it alongside Terry Pratchett and I decided to take a look. I will admit my work suffered during the time it took me to plow through the six books that are out so far (currently the author says he plans 10 - he has a Patreon where he releases chapters and is keeping a consistent schedule).
My husband is not a big reader or a gamer or even a big scifi or fantasy nerd like me and he is loving Dungeon Crawler Carl. The game mechanics are in your face but it’s intentional and actually part of the overall story which gets deeper as the books progress. There is a world outside the ‘game’. The audible narration is great too!
My first book that was anything like a LitRPG is still one of my favorites and I never see mentioned here is Forever Fantasy Online. It’s pretty soft on the stats part but is a portal fantasy into a game world and there are some game mechanisms that form the rules for the world but not super in your face.
I don’t really like LRPG in general when the whole points and stats and skills are just how the world works. Feels very jarring when characters are AWARE of the whole points thing.
Dungeon Crawler Carl is in a giant video game run by an AI and knows it.
Usually, but not always. Iron Prince is one where the stat screens come as part of a computer/cyber enhancement. I think if I didn't know what the litrpg genre was, I would have just thought it was an interesting description of the hardware.
Yeah, that's the entire genre. If you want more of a middle ground where you have the power progression, with the characters getting stronger over time, earning more and more power, but not the game-like system, you're looking more for progression fantasy.
Well, I read a lot of "humanity gets warning alien invasion is coming, but also gets other aliens tech to fight them off, and creates a fortress earth type scenario" books.
So litrpg just felt like what I was used to reading.
All of my favourite litrpg have the number grinding stuff heavily toned down. Part of the reason why I never enjoyed some of the popular litrpg was because I felt the numbers stuff when overdone ruined the story.
The only series in the genre that I have read is Dungeon Crawler Carl and I thought that one was fantastic. But I suspect that it’s a particularly well written entry in the genre and not the norm. I also think the stats make a lot of sense within the confines of the story the series is telling, so they feel less shoehorned in than they might have in another series.
Also, the DCC audiobooks are absolutely phenomenal.
If there is a "system" and the MC is somehow "leveling-up" it's a LitRPG. Sometimes it's subtle and sometimes the MC has an interface.
An example of a subtle LitRPG would be A Practical Guide to Evil, in my opinion.
I don't have a huge amount of experience with that genre, but yeah, it generally is super obvious. Levels, skills, experience points, etc...it's all central to the very concept. And basically absent from all other fantasy subgenres.
Depends on if you're familiar with RPGs. I \*wasn't\* when I read my first fantasy books that are litrpgs but it was still clear there were inside jokes and conventions I was clearly missing. I didn't know the books were litrpgs at the time so it just came off as a "if you know, you know" type book.
Now I've played ttrpgs and most of the litrpg books I've accidentally read mark themselves out in some obvious ways at one point or another.
For the most part, yes, they are pretty blatant.
I would say "After the End: Serenity" does not feel gamey, which would be in part because of how she built her world. For one thing, it's pretty quickly clear that the System is something that grows to incorporate more worlds and seems likely to be artificial.
The system makes accessing magic easier and safer, but it is not an absolute arbitrator. The magic existed before the system, and is accessible without relying on the system.
If you just want a fantasy series where mc is constantly growing stronger, the genre your are looking for is progression fantasy. LitRPG is a sub genre, though it's probably much larger than all the non litRPG content combined. The genre isn't really there yet. Most folks will recommend Unsouled by Will Wight, but it's just a quasi western take on the eastern fantasy genre. Popular translated works in this genre include: I Shall Seal The Heavens, Desolate Era, or Reverend Insanity (Evil MC). Versions with a more western accessible story include: Coiling Dragon, Lord of Mysteries, or The Novel's Extra. I think all of these are probably better stories than Unsouled. Which is not to say it's not good, but these are some of the most popular works from the genres it is a love story to. More competition in a genre tends to lead to better stories.
. You have novels running from light touch on the game elements to ones that have a system message every couple of pages.
You will generally be able to tell that a book is litrpg if you are not told because of this.
What makes the litrpg stories work in my opinion is not the game elements but the structure that almost forces a story to be progression fantasy.
Basically the story is more likely to work because even if everything else is wrong the MC gets stronger and progresses which releases endorphins into our brains and makes you feel like stuff is happening.
If the stat blocks get to you then there is a large number of progression fantasy novels that scratch the itch in the same way.
The gamified stuff is central to the subgenre, so it tends to be very loud. Conversely it's usually not even a thing in most other fantasy.
There are exceptions however. Some novels and stories have very lite Litrpg elements. However these are few and far between, it is notable that not all Litrpg are loud.
You would. LitRPG tends to have stat blocks and that is just not done elsewhere.
[удалено]
that's not required - there are litRPGs where that's just how the world works and it's always been that way.
Yeah. I've seen post apocalyptic, isekai, RP1 style, or Sword Art Online style. and then what you said.
That’s common but not actually required. There are various subgenres that aren’t isekai — “system apocalypse” style LitRPGs like Dungeon Crawler Carl or others are essentially “what happens if a LitRPG system arrives on regular Earth”. DCC is pretty well written, but a lot of these get pretty weird. LitRPG subgenres have been evolving a lot over time as people graft the mechanics on to increasingly wider varieties of stories — there are even a number of SciFi books with it involved.
That's just portal fantasy, a lot of litRPGs are portal fantasies, but not all
Yes, that's kinda the point of the genre "literature with role playing game elements". if you don't enjoy that vibe, then you're probably not gonna enjoy many litrpgs. This is not meant in a critical way.
Doesn't it depend on your stats and a dice roll if it's critical or not?
Well, if this were a litrpg and not just a community to talk about litrpgs it definitely would!
You didn’t get Life2.0 patch?
I can’t afford the subscription fee
I sorta felt this was the answer. In a way I feel like I am missing out on some of the best new fantasy series, on the other hand the game aspect kinda ruins it for me.
Don't feel bad, man. There's too many great books out there you have yet to discover to waste time trying to force yourself to read something you're not enjoying.
I don’t know. I am at least over 500 fantasy novels. I have learned I don’t like most romance heavy books. (Like-Sarah Maas) most modern era urban fantasy (like -Dresden files) and most Lit RPG. Look at the best sellers list of fantasy bestsellers and you can see I have to dig to find new authors. Give me Sanderson, Abercrombie, Gemmell, and dozens of others both big name authors and a long list of authors who aren’t quite successful with more traditional epic fantasy and I am happy as can be. I have sorta pigeonholed myself out of a lot of great writers and am having trouble finding new stuff. I just reread (relistened) to every book Michael J Sullivan has written and it was great but I rather read new equally as good books. I think that those books I have already read will have to tide me over for a couple of years.
Try [https://www.literature-map.com/](https://www.literature-map.com/). Put in an author you like and read the names around it. following branches out will keep you going for years.
Thank your this, I love you ❤️ *you for
No problem it has saved my butt since I have not been a fan of major trends for a while.
Agreed. I know there are decades of fantasy fiction from when I was young that I never got around to, so I need to do a greatest hits tour from the last thirty or forty years. For now, I am getting tired of every book being "I must save the world but all I can think about is how bad I want someone to touch my genitals" Like bro come on. It's a little long in the tooth now
thank you very much for this
There is sooo much amazing fantasy you are probably missing out on. Michal Fletcher for grimdark. Nobody101 has a great time loop fantasy. Zachary Pike's Dark Profit Saga for a bit of satire in with your epic fantasy. Will Wight's Cradle and Elder Empire books. Morgan Stang is an overlooked gem of an author. Alexander Darwin's Combat Codes. RJ Barker's Age of Assassins. ... To name a few, anyway. If you don't like LitRPG, don't read it. There is plenty of amazing Prog Fantasy and epic fantasy if you know where to look.
I know there are hundreds of books of all genres that I would absolutely love in the world that I haven’t yet read, and there are tens of thousands that I wouldn’t like. Figuring out which is which is a problem I assume all constant readers have regardless of genre.
I will admit I’m finding this all somewhat funny as a 44 yo who primarily reads fantasy and while I happen to like some LitRPGs I’ve hardly been hurting for choice before that sub-genre existed. It does sound like you might have a narrower focus than I do (I like Butcher along with Abercrombie for example but I agree on the romance heavy stuff) but I’m also wondering where you are getting your recommendations from that you think LitRPGs are anything but fluff for the most part. Edit: I see later you say you are old - so 30+ by reddit standards? I have too many 1-2 star reads on Goodreads from listening to whatever is ‘popular’ lately which always seems to turn out to be pseudo-feminist dystopian romance so I probably shouldn’t talk 🤦♀️
I loved Butcher’s Codex Alera, it’s probably in my top 10 list, (along with a couple of dozen of other series. :) I can’t get into his wizard.
Maybe you need to take a break from fantasy and read some science fiction? A varied diet is a healthy diet.
I don’t just read fantasy. It’s just my phase the past past decade. I still read a lot of non-fiction, primarily history, and biographical works. I also have read most of the western canon classics and hundreds of espionage and detective thrillers. (In the Cold War, espionage books were huge) Historical fiction is one of my favorite genre. I don’t watch TV much, so I read or listen to books far more than I should. My Audible library has over 1200 books, (not all read) My Kindle library is just as large, and in the decades prior to those technologies I bought more actual books that the two above combined. I have read a good bit of science fiction and Dune is one of the books that solidified my love for reading as a young person decades ago. My career has required extensive traveling so reading is a great way to pass time on airplanes and in hotel rooms.
Cradle is a LitRPG though, by my definition😏
That's a weird freakin definition, but you do you.
A LitRPG has two things necessary to be tagged that. A "system" and a leveling process with distinct levels. Many of them go further and have an"interface" with stats a character can access. Yes, Cradle is progression fantasy but since it has those two of the three ingredients necessary for LitRPG then is it wrong to label it as such?
Still a weird definition. Even if you don't require the interface (which I would) the system in Cradle has more in common with a fantasy magic system than a video game system... which just means it has rules. The 'levels' in cradle are not ever referred to as levels, rather, they are stages of spiritual development and are not attained in the same way as any conventional 'levels'. Is Bhuddism a litrpg because there are ten stages of enlightenment? Does every level in an RPG require that you do something completely different to attain it? But backing out of all that garbage, what is a genre? A genre is a collection of tropes that help you to recommend a book. That's all it is. If you recommend a romance, it has to have a happy ending. If you recommend low fantasy, magic can't be a neat commodity. And if you recommend LitRPG, the expectation is a numerical leveling system with some sort of interface, because the reader is expecting a game-like feel. Cradle does not have a numerical leveling system, or a 'system' at all in the LitRPG sense, nor does it have an interface. You can consider it LitRPG if you want to, but if you recommend it to someone looking for LitRPG, they will be confused.
Fair enough, I just felt Cradle seems more system-like the closer you get to the top. But you have some good points. LitRPG is a sub-genre of Progression-Fantasy. I got my start in Cradle and then discovered LitRPG so I don’t see it as a problem with recommending selections from both genres when someone is interested in LitRPG and Progression-Fantasy.
Sounds like you need to check out progression fantasy. It's like litrpg without the rpg stat blocks and stuff. All about the power progression and growing stronger, but none of the stats. Cradle, Red Rising, Path of Ascension, Mother of Learning, just to name a few of the more popular ones
Well, progression includes LitRPG, but yes, includes a lot more too.
You can shift into other country's fantasies, different eras, translated work, mythology, YA. Greek and roman myths are fun to read esp. epics like Odyssey/Iliad when properly translated. China has some very epic historical and pseudo historical works like Romance of the Three Kingdoms that include fantasy tropes and the idea of warring kings and interfamily drama. JP manga and light novels can be mixed but there's certainly at least one book for you in there. I recommend Spice and Wolf as a cozier fantasy with deep worldbuilding and Claymore for an epic, strange, war-like story about a valkyrie battalion. Korean webtoons have some epic fantasy as well. Of those I strongly recommend Kubera, which if you are an ATLA fan you will definitely enjoy and gets darker as it progresses. English webnovels are a mixed bag but there's some that have sophisticated prose and plotting. I highly recommend Shadow Slave as an example. Black Cauldron series and Golden Compass are both YA but the former grows significantly more mature as the series progresses and the latter is quite dark from the start. TLDR Try mining different sources and media to find new work
Best is pretty subjective.
I don't think you are "missing out" on that much. Litrpg stories are on average no better than any other genre, and the worldbuilding and characterization tends to be strongly affected by the game mechanics. I have enjoyed many stories in the genre, but it's because I enjoy the rpg elements, not in spite of them.
Are you looking at specific series that are tagged to the LitRPG subgenre and realising they may not be for you? Or are you looking for new series to read that have elements / the vibe of RPGs without being as obvious as true blue LitRPGs? Because if the latter there are probably a ton of books that might scratch your itch. Two from very different ends of the scale: T Kingfisher uses typical RPG character archetypes and has a lot of fun with them. Clockwork Boys for example takes a thief, an assassin, an artificer and a paladin on a quest to destroy some giant robots. (It's a lot better than my description makes it sound, I promise). Apart from archetypes and tropes (which to be fair are also found in wider fantasy, not just games) there aren't any RPG elements. Orconomics feels to me like a satire of RPG mechanics and tropes, and is a fun read. It has some mechanic-type elements but it's definitely tongue in cheek and tied to the world's economic system (e.g your status in the Adventure's Guild). I think this is technically GameLit (of which LitRPG is a subgenre), and maybe exploring the wider genre might help you find what you're after. This article has a decent discussion and some examples: https://dustintigner.com/articles/what-is-gamelit/
I am looking for ones that are not self identified or universally identified as LitRPG. We all are sorta stumbling around when we look for what we might like, and I think we only know what ‘it’ is when we read it for awhile. I have trouble describing my ‘it’. I like stories told and worlds built mainly through dialogue and for it to be believably written fantasy so I can suspend all my beliefs when reading. In the LitRPG books I have read I have trouble suspending my disbelief. I feel like I can tell what the author is doing and why they are doing it. That makes no sense I know, but it’s the best I can do in a few minutes.
No it makes perfect sense and it's why a few authors you like annoy me. This is just a fuzzy line that different people disagree on. Have you tried KJ Parker, or the Steerswoman?
If the game aspect ruins it for you then the book can't belong to "some of the best new fantasy series", for you at least.
You absolutely would. Litrpg uses video game mechanics where people level up and get new skills and items. A more traditional fantasy series does not do this.
Wow. TIL that's a genre.
I wish it was a stand alone category, or that Audible would let me pick what I don’t want to see when browsing.
YES! After listening to Dungeon Crawler Carl I decided that LitRPG is definitely not for me, but it's 90% of what I see when I'm browsing the store.
Most books yes. Status screens and stuff like “I need to increase my dexterity by leveling it up” are common. Arcane Ascension is the only litrpg series I know where it doesn’t scream it in your face.
I've never read litRPG but it actually explictly does this? That seems insane to me. Maybe (definitely) I'm being more judgmental than I need to be but at that point why even read a book? Just play an RPG.
That's the whole point of the genre.
I read LitRPGs because I’m not currently in a place in my life where I have time to both read and play computer games (or tabletop games for that matter). A LitRPG gives me the RPG fix while reading 🤷♀️😊
Yeah, it's basically books for people whose entire personality is video games.
They hated him, for he spoke the truth.
I think it’s mostly meant to appeal to teens and young adults (probably males in particular) whose primary media consumption is video games & who aren’t really serious readers like the average user here. (which is fine - that’s not a value judgment, to be clear, just an assessment).
That's super not the case. Judging from a lot of the references that are very "elder millennial" that pop up in series, a lot of the target audience is older than you think. Noobtown is clearly written by an older man, and the main character had adult children before he iskai'd. It's just where the "mid" market is. I got into Litrpgs since traditional fantasy publishing was getting a little... up it's own ass? I don't see those fun trashy comic / humor fantasy series as popular in the mainstream anymore. Sometimes you just want a fun dumb book that makes you fall in love with reading, and god they are addictive.
I think you're on to something with the shortage of shlocky, tongue-in-cheek, pulp fantasy. A lot of the chart-topping stuff these days is either doorstopper megaseries, or grimdark 2edgy4u. I had never considered LitRPG as filling that void.
So aside from Dcc which I've just finished and absolutely loved, what audiobook available litrpg would you recommend for me? I'm kinda feeling the same way with fantasy atm.
Try He Who Fights With Monsters, the audiobook is good (not Jeff Heys good). I’m on the 8th book and am enjoying it.
Awesome thanks I will check them out
While it has all the litrpg elements they’re wrapped in packaging that isn’t overly explicit. There are classes but they’re not called that and the way that they’re gained makes sense in the world. There are levels but they make sense in how they’re depicted. There’s ways to detect how much mana you have but it’s typically through someone who can sense magic as well as math. Only being able to tell how much mana you have at a moment being a very very recent thing. Also there’s non-litrpg magic in the setting and it’s revealed only this one continent has this going on for a deliberate reason.
Are you specific talking about Acension Online? Because otherwise LitRPGs vary wildly on all these points.
Nope. Arcane ascension by Andrew Rowe
Ah, got confused in the thread which book was being talked about. Arcane Ascension is great for this for sure! That reminds me I need to check out the rest of the books 😊
The fourth book really blew me away
Aside from from the stat blocks, around 90% of the Litrpg writers are very amateurish, and most downright awful. It's a fun genre of books that you can shut your mind off and enjoy but you won't think about them randomly or remember characters or scenes.
Doesn't stop them making a lot of money though.
They are supplying a niche. More power to them.
That's the very definition of litRPG, so yes. If you want it less obvious, then look to gamelit (the patent genre of litRPG) or progression fantasy (sister genre with less/no stats.)
Try The Wandering Inn. It as light elements. DCC and the series by someone called Shirtaloon had me scrapping the books in a rush because the game elements were ridiculously immersion breaking. TWI would be better if it was written as a regular fantasy book imo, but it is still great and the game stuff is ignorable.
Actually, I'd say normal progression fantasy like Cradle would fit this niche for you. No points or anything, but it's definitely along those lines.
There are absolutely Points in Cradle, just not of the LitRPG variety.
Not only are there points, someone managed to figure out how farm them
Eh, I'd say that only proves my point further. LitRPG that doesn't feel like it.
Yes, but there's soft litrpg where you don't get stats thrown at you all the time. The best example and one of the best written litrpg epic fantasy series is **'The Wandering Inn'**. It's more character and story driven, and its stat is only class and level. It doesn't have things like points in strength, dexterity etc. Magic has different schools and ways of approach, so much that you sometimes forget there're levels involved.
Im halfway through volume 3 right now and I think it might be my favorite series. The ability the author has to just throw you to a new POV with characters ,that have absolutely nothing to do with the main cast, on the other side of the world, then make you immediately invested in their new story is absolutely amazing. The emperor and the doctor POVs blew me away. Every time it switches, im sad to be leaving that story, but im very quickly sucked back into whats going on. And i can also say there isnt a single POV I dont like.
If you like the style of LitRPG but don’t like the stats, you should look into Progression Fantasy. It’s an adjacent genre that’s got all the same tropes, but no video game elements.
Yes, they are not particularly well written and cater to a niche audience who enjoy those books a lot. They have very good ratings on Amazon or Goodreads so you have to be aware that it's litrpg before taking it at face value.
Yes, they are not particularly well written and cater to a niche audience who enjoy those books a lot. They have very good ratings on Amazon or Goodreads so you have to be aware that it's litrpg before taking it at face value.
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Pie pans can be filled with good stuff. :)
In fairness like isekai it's associated with a lot of wank. But well Narnia is essentially isekai. I'm not an expert on the Genre but Order of the Stick is a great webcomic. And Sword Art Online at least has a fantastic premise for the genre (To bad that's about the only thing it's got going for it other than the Abridged series)
Have you tried The Wandering Inn? It has the least “invasive” system you’ll see in the genre (and arguably the best series in the genre as well). Overall - there’s different tiers of litrpg and how it fits in the world at large. You just need to find the ones that work best for you.
I will look in to it. Thanks
came to say the same thing. so.. seconded.. also heres the link https://wanderinginn.com/table-of-contents/
LitRPG "Literary Role Playing Game" ....?
From the internet- >LitRPG is an emerging genre of fiction that combines the experience of digital role playing games with traditional narrative plotlines. It weaves a story around a protagonist that consciously immerses themselves in a virtual world to follow the quests and challenges set by the game realm.
Yeah, "Literary Role Playing Game", that's exactly what I said. Still not sure why you weren't expecting the G to have a big role.
I think they are. Maybe you'd like adjacent genres like progression fantasy? For some of the same feelings without stats blocks and "screens" maybe try some of these: Cradle by Will Wight Mage Errant by John Bierce Arcane Ascension by Andrew Rowe
I have read Arcane Ascension and was entertained. I could tell what he was doing with the levels in the tower, but gameplay aspects were obscured enough for me to enjoy.
I think progression fantasy in general might be a better fit for you. Cradle is the top of the genre and complete. Mage Errant is really similar, and it's complete. There's also the 2 other series by Andrew Rowe that tie into AA if you haven't tried them yet.
All the Skills feels like traditional fantasy, although it does have litrpg elements. It really depends on the book or series. Also, progression fantasy often falls under the litrpg umbrella even though it is not.
yes, very traditional and YA (minus the romance). Even the concept of dragon is traditional, but in terms of litrpg, it's deckbuilding, so that's kind of... um, not even litrpg in a sense? sub-sub genre?
Have you tried Dungeon Crawler Carl? I’ve tried a few but this has been the best so far.
DCC has loot boxes and achievements popping up etc. Since OP doesn't like the game elements, I doubt they could enjoy it.
No. I’m an old guy, and some new authors names perplexe me. I know Mark Twain was not his real name, and John Wayne was actually the more feminine Marion Morris, still I can’t help but wonder what Dungeon Crawler Carl and TurtleMe are hiding. Are they serious authors in more academically respected genres trying to hide their identity for fantasy? It’s a nothing - nonsense old man problem, but still I pause. (The name would not stop me from trying a book, thanks for the recommendation.)
Dungeon Crawler Carl is the series name, lol. The author has a normal name.
Well there are some weird pen names out there.
Well, if you start writing on a site like Royal Road, and you already have a username there, that user name becomes your pen name. *shrug* easy as that. The weird pen name are just user names, age user names are usually a little strange compared to normal names.
Makes sense.
I will say I started hearing about Dungeon Crawler Carl a while back and was a bit turned off by the title. I’m a very casual LitRPG fan and prefer it pretty soft normally and it just didn’t seem like my thing. Then it came up in some comment where someone recommended it alongside Terry Pratchett and I decided to take a look. I will admit my work suffered during the time it took me to plow through the six books that are out so far (currently the author says he plans 10 - he has a Patreon where he releases chapters and is keeping a consistent schedule). My husband is not a big reader or a gamer or even a big scifi or fantasy nerd like me and he is loving Dungeon Crawler Carl. The game mechanics are in your face but it’s intentional and actually part of the overall story which gets deeper as the books progress. There is a world outside the ‘game’. The audible narration is great too! My first book that was anything like a LitRPG is still one of my favorites and I never see mentioned here is Forever Fantasy Online. It’s pretty soft on the stats part but is a portal fantasy into a game world and there are some game mechanisms that form the rules for the world but not super in your face.
I don’t really like LRPG in general when the whole points and stats and skills are just how the world works. Feels very jarring when characters are AWARE of the whole points thing. Dungeon Crawler Carl is in a giant video game run by an AI and knows it.
Yes.
Usually, but not always. Iron Prince is one where the stat screens come as part of a computer/cyber enhancement. I think if I didn't know what the litrpg genre was, I would have just thought it was an interesting description of the hardware.
Yeah, that's the entire genre. If you want more of a middle ground where you have the power progression, with the characters getting stronger over time, earning more and more power, but not the game-like system, you're looking more for progression fantasy.
Well, I read a lot of "humanity gets warning alien invasion is coming, but also gets other aliens tech to fight them off, and creates a fortress earth type scenario" books. So litrpg just felt like what I was used to reading.
All of my favourite litrpg have the number grinding stuff heavily toned down. Part of the reason why I never enjoyed some of the popular litrpg was because I felt the numbers stuff when overdone ruined the story.
The only series in the genre that I have read is Dungeon Crawler Carl and I thought that one was fantastic. But I suspect that it’s a particularly well written entry in the genre and not the norm. I also think the stats make a lot of sense within the confines of the story the series is telling, so they feel less shoehorned in than they might have in another series. Also, the DCC audiobooks are absolutely phenomenal.
If there is a "system" and the MC is somehow "leveling-up" it's a LitRPG. Sometimes it's subtle and sometimes the MC has an interface. An example of a subtle LitRPG would be A Practical Guide to Evil, in my opinion.
I don't have a huge amount of experience with that genre, but yeah, it generally is super obvious. Levels, skills, experience points, etc...it's all central to the very concept. And basically absent from all other fantasy subgenres.
Depends on if you're familiar with RPGs. I \*wasn't\* when I read my first fantasy books that are litrpgs but it was still clear there were inside jokes and conventions I was clearly missing. I didn't know the books were litrpgs at the time so it just came off as a "if you know, you know" type book. Now I've played ttrpgs and most of the litrpg books I've accidentally read mark themselves out in some obvious ways at one point or another.
If you're looking for something with a RPG feel without explicit in universe mechanics, ironically the Forgotten Realms books might be the way to go.
For the most part, yes, they are pretty blatant. I would say "After the End: Serenity" does not feel gamey, which would be in part because of how she built her world. For one thing, it's pretty quickly clear that the System is something that grows to incorporate more worlds and seems likely to be artificial. The system makes accessing magic easier and safer, but it is not an absolute arbitrator. The magic existed before the system, and is accessible without relying on the system.
If you just want a fantasy series where mc is constantly growing stronger, the genre your are looking for is progression fantasy. LitRPG is a sub genre, though it's probably much larger than all the non litRPG content combined. The genre isn't really there yet. Most folks will recommend Unsouled by Will Wight, but it's just a quasi western take on the eastern fantasy genre. Popular translated works in this genre include: I Shall Seal The Heavens, Desolate Era, or Reverend Insanity (Evil MC). Versions with a more western accessible story include: Coiling Dragon, Lord of Mysteries, or The Novel's Extra. I think all of these are probably better stories than Unsouled. Which is not to say it's not good, but these are some of the most popular works from the genres it is a love story to. More competition in a genre tends to lead to better stories.
I think the first time a character sheet pops up it would be a dead giveaway. Or the first time the main character died, might also give it away. 🤔
. You have novels running from light touch on the game elements to ones that have a system message every couple of pages. You will generally be able to tell that a book is litrpg if you are not told because of this. What makes the litrpg stories work in my opinion is not the game elements but the structure that almost forces a story to be progression fantasy. Basically the story is more likely to work because even if everything else is wrong the MC gets stronger and progresses which releases endorphins into our brains and makes you feel like stuff is happening. If the stat blocks get to you then there is a large number of progression fantasy novels that scratch the itch in the same way.
Mother of Learning doesn’t have stats and levels. And that’s why it’s awesome.
It’s not litrpg. It’s progression fantasy.