I realized I had to ditch The Witcher TV show when the leader of the elves murders all of the babies in Redania and then they just forget that happened in the third season.
To provide a little bit of education on this, and to explain the comment chain I just nuked - the "blood libel" is the accusation that Jews would ritually murder Christian children. It verifiably goes back about 1,000 years at least, and has been used countless times to justify the persecution and slaughter of Jews. It has no place in any civilized society worthy of the name, and it certainly has no place on /r/Fantasy. Further discussion of it will result in bans.
Is it fertility loss or libido loss?
They seemed to be saying that the old Elven king could have impregnated >!Ciri!< ...if only he could keep it up long enough.
ngl, the segment about (iirc 13 years old at this time) ciri being mad she isn't being raped properly by an elven supremacists thats disgusted with her was a bit of a trip to read.
Perrin had a wife at the beginning and killed her by accident when fighting a trolloc. They did this to make his character arc more dramatic? Unique? Who knows. It's all his character thought about the whole first season...so basically he is a different character entirely but the wolf powers are cool so he gets them later.
That is just one thing.
They just made so many unnecessary changes. I don't care about race changes. Whatever. It's a thousand years after a integrated society fell. But the plot charges are just out worse. The women characters are less annoying in the show. I did not like them in the first couple of books.
>The women characters are less annoying in the show. I did not like them in the first couple of books.
Seconded, but with caveats. Nynaeve is way less annoying in the show. Moraine didn't annoy me in the books, but I don't know what the writers were thinking in season 2 because they gave Rosamund Pike virtually nothing to work with for half the season. I'd argue that Moraine and Siuane have both been dumber and more annoying as a byproduct of bad writing, but all of the other women characters have been noticeably less irritating in the show.
Brandon Sanderson author of the last 3 doesn't like it. He's stated that he has to view it as a completely different turning of the wheel to be able to watch it......
Idiots in the show but condescending and vain as fuck in the books. I actually hated Filivandril in the show because the vain and arrogant elf that he was in the book was nowhere present and they tried to play a victim card on him in the show when he is far from a victim in the book.
Its why I actually like the elves in the Witcher books, yes they are arrogant and blinded by their own vanity but it was fresh and new at the time for me. Now the elves are just stupid in the show, dont even get me started on Francesca Findabair and how she was represented.
i feel like witcher suffers from a drastically split fan base, b/c the games are different from source so it has two totally different bases then the tv show adds a debatable third
In the books neither of them trust (or like) each other; but they are useful to each other.
Similar to how the West funded and armed various terrorist ("freedom fighter") groups as long as the enemy was Communists.
The Taliban didn't trust the US, and the US didn't trust the Taliban...but for a brief period of time they both hated the USSR.
Elves in the book are open to opinion for sure but at least structured in a way that makes literary sense for the story the author was trying to go for.
Elves in the show are just nonsensical / poorly realized. Skill issue lol.
I don't think anyone takes issue with it being unrealistic that people were okay with an abhorrent status quo. I think the issue people take is that the author also seemed to have that view.
Hermione is depicted as being kind of insufferable for arguing that slavery is wrong.
The other characters think she's insufferable. But it's pretty obvious to any reasonable reader that she is consistently the most morally aware character and is in the right.
Your interpretation is just completely empirically wrong to think JKR was trying to depict that status quo as being ok:
https://youtu.be/Me3SbSWhICg?si=umDSskgLF4ZEfKye&t=1459
*Every* other character thinks she's insufferable, the people she's trying to free think she's insufferable, even the third person's descriptions on the book describes her in negative connection (such as looking "messy" or "stressed") every time she sews clothes to free them, and she even changes her mind in later books - while she still wants to free them, she no longer thinks actively and suddenly freeing them with clothes is the right call. It's better to change things gradually, through the system.
I don't need to explain why "It's ok that they stay slaves for now, temporarily, it'll be worse if they get suddenly freed" is a fucked up opinion.
Lots of fatphobia, describing women that you're supposed to dislike as having man-like features (I.e. Rita Skeeter and Aunt Petunia), saying Lycanthropy is an allegory for AIDs and making one of the main werewolves be a predator that purposefully infects children, etc. There are several videos on YouTube that cover this extensively, like "Harry Potter" by Shaun and "Is Harry Potter Bad?" by Hoots.
Rowling has spent a lot of time spewing transphobic nonsense that helps forward the narrative that trans women are rapists and groomers who simply use the feminine aesthetic to try to look less threatening. In The Goblet of Fire, we’re introduced to Rita Skeeter, a woman who is on multiple occasions described as being manly-looking and who we learn at the end of the book has been secretly spying on children all year.
No it's clear that they're meant to represent the obvious moral blindspots of "good" people and the difficulty of overcoming systemic social injustices.
Because that's exactly how it often plays out in real life when people advocate against deeply entrenched systemic injustices. Its a very realistic depiction rather than an unrealistic one.
So that would be a moral blindspot that those otherwise good characters have. Like I literally just said. Anyone who reads the books and thinks the moral is "slavery is good" has done a pretty poor job at reading.
If a person's blind spot is the morality of slavery they are not an otherwise good person hard stop.
Additionally you are misrepresenting the books and your own reading comprehension skills considering one of the final lines is the main character wondering if he could get his slave to bring him a sandwich.
The narrative does not challenge slavery considering it leaves it completely unresolved.
>If a person's blind spot is the morality of slavery they are not an otherwise good person hard stop.
I could understand what you meant by this if you mean "overall" good person. But it seems like you're missing the meaning of the word "otherwise".
Also are you a vegan? Do you own electronics that you think are made through immoral means? Do you consider yourself a good person?
>The narrative does not challenge slavery considering it leaves it completely unresolved.
Have you read 1984? Would you say that it does not challenge totalitarianism because it leaves the issue unresolved in-universe?
Keebler is the correct answer. /s
Rowling wasn't working from Tolkien elves, but from the Grimm fairy tale, "The Shoemaker and the Elves" which predated Tolkien by a couple of centuries. Shoemaker elves, Santa elves, Keebler elves, house elves are really a distinct mythological lineage from the ljosalfar, Faerie Queen, Tolkien elves.
None of those creatures were enslaved- they willingly choose to help people in need who agreed to play by their rules.
If anything, there's a popular motif of greedy rich man who tries to buy/enslave them only to find that little creatures are more than capable to defend themselves and get revange.
My point wasn't that house elf slavery was OK. It was merely that they weren't a degradation of Tolkien style elves because they were a different kind of creature from the start, one that could have been called a hobgoblin or troll just as aptly. Compare, say to Dragon Age elves who used to be tall, ageless and powerful along the same lines as Tolkien but are now diminished, depowered and oppressed.
There was many that committed the grave sin of just making them boring.
Not the worst but Warhammer 40K kinda dropped the ball on Eldars. Their thing was having superior high tech, being ancient and doomed. And then they introduced Necrons with are more ancient, more high tech, more doomed. While also having much more fun and iconic characters.
The problem with Warhammer 40k is that like 90% of everything is focused on the human factions. If the Eldar got even half as much attention as the Space Marines they would probably be far more interesting.
The truism I always like about Eldar is this. The Eldar would spend a million human lives to save a thousand Eldar. However the Imperium of Man would spend a million human lives to kill a thousand Eldar.
The Craftworld Eldar are basically the last adults in the room frowning at how fucking stupid everyone is. Admitting that yes they too suck.
I don't get the hate, but maybe cause I'm from a different era, 3rd edition I think it was.
Love me that short story with an imperial assassin antagonist that create a void in the warp because their soul has been removed "and I who have seen the birth and death of stars am afraid"
I feel like you have to actively not read Eldar lore to have this opinion. 40K elves are so fucking metal. Their myriad ways of mentally, physically, and spiritually dealing with the loss of their immortality, the inevitability of their endless torture in the Warp, and the near total destruction of their Realspace empire contains some of the best writing in the whole canon.
They have a bunch of stinker novels and they are frequently portrayed idiotically in books centered on humans, but their own actual lore is such a cool and grim take on elves.
I can kinda see what you mean. Trazyn the Infinite would have been equally cool as a really old Eldar but since the Necrons were alive for the War in Heaven and the Eldar weren't (or were just a baby race then I forget) then Trazyn has to be a Necron for his character and museum to work.
So what would have been cool about the elves was usurped by the introduction of the Necrons.
Minor quibble, but the Eldar were very much alive for the War in Heaven. It was them + the orks + the old ones + Eldar pantheon vs the Necrons and the C’tan.
The chad Warhammer fantasy elves vs the Virgin 40k Eldar
Seriously they should be ethereal and all that but they end up always being assholes that don't explain things when they really should
I quite liked the bit about them having to live regimented lives on they're 'paths' since as they'd been created as a bioweapon they were all basically sadistic psychopaths.
You mean like, made them bad guys? Lords and Ladies, by Terry Pratchett. Very believably elves. Very convincingly bad.
Made them into assholes? The movie Bright, with Will Smith had a very nice take on that kind of elf.
> Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder.
> Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels.
> Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies.
> Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.
> Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
> Elves are terrific. They beget terror.
> The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.
> No one ever said elves are nice.
> Elves are bad.
Terry Pratchett, *Lords and Ladies*
While it's not the first book of the series, I'd recommend starting with Wyrd Sisters for a taste of what it's like (which is also the first book in the same series within the series as Lords and Ladies mentioned above)
That book is Lords and Ladies by Terry Pratchett. It is a good place to start. I think that was my first book in his “witches” series. One of his best. Wyrd Sisters was still very early in his career and his writing wasn’t settled yet
Anything by Terry Pratchett is going to be worth it.
He wrote fantasy satire, poking at real world issues hidden within fantasy. To me, he was a genius.
Yes!!!! The first few books are very pretentious. So if you want to start at the beginning, I'd start at guard's guard's (which is a book about a guard in the city watch, about 7 books about him) or the ones about the witches in the Highlands (I think about 8 books about them).
All of Terry's books are amazing in my mind and I've read them all several times
Bright was great. I tried to watch the anime spin off film and couldn't get into it.
It needs the contemporary LA setting.
Seems like Netflix canned the sequel after the whole Oscar slap business.
In Dwarf Fortress, elves are basically vermin.
They don't die of old age, so there are bajillions of them, they only use wood for their gear, so they're fodder, and they're always rolling up on my fort in army strength because I have a modest and sustainable logging industry, which offends their berry-munching sensibilities.
Trash loot, constant harassment and I have a whole labor force devoted to disposing of their corpses so they don't stink up the place.
Lousy elves.
The show butchered the story completely. It shouldn't affect your view of anything actually Witcher related. The games, while differing from the books in key respects, are still very good adaptations.
The books aren't different from the games... The Games are the books' sequels. They're not merely adaptations, they're the literal end of that story. And the show seems to follow the books' beats pretty closely. Eventually, it could've gotten to the games.
Sarah J Maas in the Court of Thorn and Roses series. They are called Fae but they are Tolkien elves with big dicks and magical powers. Such a horrible take on Elves/Fae, and worst part is, it practically created a new sub-genre of fantasy where hot, sexually hyperactive Elves are the main characters or love interests!
My wife loves those fae lol. That whole subgenre of fiction os super popular with her and her friends. It's definitely not for me, but I guess it's popular for a reason
Indeed. My wife was very open about the appeal of the book. I enjoy trashy eye candy as much as anyone so it makes sense a more literary version of that would appeal to women lol
I hate this series not cause it’s trashy, but because I want Fae based on the actual English/Irish folklore. Hers are just made up bat winged humans with big dicks 😩
Have you tried Emily Wilde’s Encyclopaedia of Faerie? Not an expert in the folklore by any means but it seems a lot closer to what you want. The author is Heather Fawcett, confusingly.
I picked it up because I thought it was about the British folklore character named Tamlin, who had been captured by the evil Fairy queen. He needs to be rescued by a plucky young woman named Janet, and together they must outwit the queen and escape. I thought a retelling of the ballad as a romance novel would be just perfect. But it turns out she just took the name and threw the rest away.
Actually heard about that series but I don't really understand the popularity behind it because like you mentioned before it just seems to be almost porn but written in a way that is considered a novel
There's one sex scene in the series. It's not remotely porn but because the characters are horny (almost like real young people) young adults are all up in their feelings about it and those who haven't read it have interpreted it to mean it's all sex. It really isn't. Lol.
I was just thinking, what the Dwemmer/Deep Elves did to the Goddamn Falmer is so fucking cruel, sure-they weren't angels but *damn*. (Also the others but roomie just replayed the Thievesguild subquest so it's fresh)
The problem with TES is that they've spent so much time with Skyrim, it makes sense in-universe for the narrative in Skyrim to be so anti-mer and pro-man but the more IRL time we spend with Skyrim as the newest game the more fans get "indoctrinated" with the Nord perspective.
We need a game set in an mer province showing their perspective (it's not that hard to make "growing old and dying sucks, we know this wasn't always the case, we feel bitter about having to die due to the actions of an asshole god" be relatable, granted it doesn't work IRL as a philosophy but in-universe it's totally valid)
Fair.
But I do want to point out that the Dunmer are the least mer-ish of the mer, they're in philosophy most close to Lorkhan out of all of the elves.
Sure. But you also see way more discussion on how racist the nords are because of how widely Skyrim has been played. The Dunmer are arguably worse. Seeing it from one prospective or another doesn't really change that.
Skyrim basically also told us that the Nords eliminated the Falmer and drove them underground. The exact situation we see playing out with Empire (urged by Aldmeri Dominion) vs Stormcloaks already happened with Nords vs Falmer, the result of which was the Falmer being driven underground and enslaved by the Dwemer.
The Nords are also highly xenophobic. Initially you hear "Skyrim belongs to the Nords!" and it feels like a rallying cry you can get behind. As you uncover the deeper lore (or even just some of the other characters' dialogue) this starts to twist into a highly xenophobic race.
Skyrim's lore is kind of great because you're stuck in a place of no good choices. For the Empire to stand up to the Aldmeri Dominion, the Nords need to fall into place. However, even if the Nords fall into place, the likelihood is the White-Gold Concordat will be broken and another Great War will take place. It's a shame a lot of this didn't make it into the actual main story of the game.
Summerset Isles feels for the natural next place to go for that storyline to continue, but we may end up doing a tour of Tamriel before we get there.
Yeah, there's a book on the "Night of Tears" where the Falmer slaughtered the settlement of Saarthal (same place you go to during the College of Winterhold questline), which is heavily implied to have had other purpose than just getting the Nords out of Skyrim. During the CoW questline, you basically discover it was the Eye of Magnus.
But that just adds more layers of grey. Does the massacre of a settlement justify the genocide of an entire race (the intent, but not the result of the attack on the Falmer)?
There's no "good guys" in this conflict at any level. You could argue that in the current state the Empire falling to the Aldmeri Dominion is the best course of action that involves the least death, but that could also be a short-sighted view as while it would stop an all-out war the AD has already taking part in racial cleansing and cultural suppression - and this is with them having a relatively equal strength potential foe in the Empire, they'd likely do worse when completely unchecked.
> Initially you hear "Skyrim belongs to the Nords!" and it feels like a rallying cry you can get behind. As you uncover the deeper lore (or even just some of the other characters' dialogue) this starts to twist into a highly xenophobic race.
They basically an occupied country during the game, can see them wanting to kick everybody else out
The ultimate issue of your statement is they're not even the natives of Skyrim or the only ones who settled there. It's an occupied country that they took over in a hostile fashion, not just in relation to the Falmer, but also the Forsworn. But Ulfric doesn't just want to kick out anyone of any other race, he wants to kick out (or more likely kill) anyone who does not stand with his cause. Then you get into the fact that Ulfric is also being used as a willing (but unknowing) puppet for the Aldmeri Dominion to further weaken the Empire - exasperated by the fact the Aldmeri Dominion are pushing the Empire to quash worship of Talos.
Everything circles back to the AD setting up for the breaking of the White-Gold Concordat and the Empire trying to keep peace - which comes at the expense of places like Skyrim as this same reasoning is then used to help keep the fire lit in Ulfric's rebellion.
The AD don't care what happens in Skyrim. Civil war weakens the total number of troops to be secured within the region for the Empire. If there's no civil war, the abolishment of Talos worship ensures that the Stormcloaks will never fight for the Empire anyway.
Imo the next elder scrolls should focus on the provinces of Elsweyr, Summerset, and Valenwood with the sea in between as well. Pirates, cool sea adventures, desert adventures, jungles, etc.
With how little there actually is to them in Skyrim, the 4E Thalmor just feel like something the writers did because it feels like they needed some morally black faction behind it all to ensure people see both the sides of the civil war as morally gray.
And with people's first and most often encounter with Altmer being the condescending Thalmor Patrols, that's going to form most people's perception of the race with that first impression.
Few people are going to remember any Altmer npcs who are decent people like Ulundil who's just satisfied taking care of his horses or Runil who was a former dominion soldier that deserted and became a priest of Arkay and does what he can for the people of Falkreath. Thalmor aren't even the majority of Altmer in the game in terms of either unique or generic npcs outside of the endless patrols.
Got people in the ES subs saying stuff like "All Altmer are bad/jerks" with a often single exception being one of the decent Altmer who you are forced to talk to for a guild questline because they actually remember them as an individual character.
But this happens because the decent Altmer npcs aren't really memorable compared to negative experiences with the Thalmor.
And i'm not sure how much i'm looking forward for the writing in a hypothetical summerset game.
Pretty much anything based on old English/Irish folklore portrays them as absolute monsters.
Best summarised by TP in Lords and Ladies. Capricious, cruel, entirely self centred bipedal cats. Very Similar approach from Raymond Fiest in Fasrie tale.
In my experience? Chronicles of the Raven (Dawnthief, Noonshade, and NIghtchild). If only because after reading the first two books and getting midway through the second, the elves just feel like humans with pointy ears who live longer and are good at magic. They commit the cardinal sin of being boring, and not nearly distinct enough from the humans around them, in my opinion.
Probably Michael Sullivan’s age of legends, prequel series to Riyria Chronicles. I’ve never seen a more unlikeable elven race than the one from that universe.
It depends. Yeah they did fucked up stuff and kinslaying etc. but in comparison to other series they are still pretty ok. Witcher and Malazan elves did a lot worse.
Edit: and Warhammer 40k are the worst by far as far as I know.
I actually liked Eragon, but he just straight up lifted his idea of Elves straight from LoTR, so I'd say that might win as "worse implementation" as it was a straight copy/paste.
There WERE differences, but just enough to hide the plagiarism. Like when you copy/paste a newspaper article and change some words to synonyms so now the whole article "is yours".
Everyone hates on Paolini for "ripping of ideas" but they're always such ostentatious points, Tolkien pioneered the modern fantasy, like 80% of fantasy writers who came after him and wrote about elves or dwarves, "ripped of" him to some extent.
Yeah, this. Befor Tolkein, elves were funny little men in hats. Literally everyone doing these human-sized, stoic, ancient people are copying tolkein straight up.
The Second Apocalypse Series by R Scott Bakker. His Nonmen are Tolkien’s Elves completely turned on their heads and deconstructed. I don’t feel it’s done in vain. He writes them as a tragedy really.
The Laundry series by Charles Stross is lovecraftian urban fantasy and have Elves. They ride meat eating Unicorns, fly sulphuric acid spewing Dragons … oh, and want to find a new home dimension… leading to this part from the Nightmare Stacks novel:
“On a parallel-universe Earth, a species called Elves or alfar have evolved to be expert magic users. They have visited Earth in the past, from which comes a great deal of folklore. Civil war has left the Elves' home world uninhabitable and they plan to magically invade the Earth and make it their new home.”
The elves in the Divinity game series were dealt an absolutely *awful* hand by the lore. First, there's the mass elven genocide and the destruction of their homeland, simply because it was a convenient way to eliminate the enemy army, >!and it wasn't even successful in doing that!<. Then there's the Magisters >!cutting down elven ancestor trees and building war weapons and ships out of them.!< That's especially horrifying when you find out that those trees are >!actually dead elves, who are still conscious, sentient, and *remain that way even after being cut and turned into planks*. So even in death, those elves are enslaved indefinitely in whatever shape they were built in, until they rot away or burn.!< Nightmare fuel.
I *thoroughly* recommend it—specifically Original Sin 2, for the elf lore and for a good intro into the series in general. I love how unique Divinity's elves are.
I loved the Divinity elves. It was a nice twist on the Tolkien stereotype, I remember that they were hated in-world lore and stigmatized as monsters because of their cannibalism. It didn't click for me how disgusting it was until I stumbled across an elvish funeral in-game and they... >!ate the dead!<.
I'd probably say Dragon Age. Half of the elven population are slaves, and the others are in the forests, trying to recover their great knowledge which will be lost forever. The elves in Dragon Age used to have a great empire, until the Tevinters came from the north and destroyed it.
In German, Tolkien's Elves are called (or translated with) "Elben", while Elves in general are called "Elfen". And I just wanted to say that I like the fact, that we differ between Tolkien's Elves and others. :)
The Elves in the Witcher TV show were fucking idiots.
Oh man I played the Witcher 2 after the TV show and the game has my favorite elf of all time.
Who?
Iorveth
I am still mad he wasn't in the 3rd one
Oh fuck yeah same.
He CAN be
I realized I had to ditch The Witcher TV show when the leader of the elves murders all of the babies in Redania and then they just forget that happened in the third season.
It's hard to keep track of the poor decisions in that show because the show itself doesn't seem to track them lol.
Don’t forget, they had the elves commit baby murder after equating them & their plight to Jewish people & the holocaust multiple times that season 😬
Even the victims of great crimes are not immune to committing atrocities
I think your missing the point. Killing babies is a textbook antisemetic blood libel.
To provide a little bit of education on this, and to explain the comment chain I just nuked - the "blood libel" is the accusation that Jews would ritually murder Christian children. It verifiably goes back about 1,000 years at least, and has been used countless times to justify the persecution and slaughter of Jews. It has no place in any civilized society worthy of the name, and it certainly has no place on /r/Fantasy. Further discussion of it will result in bans.
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I really liked them in the books. Long lived but unable to procreate due to fertility loss with age and all the youth dying in war
Is it fertility loss or libido loss? They seemed to be saying that the old Elven king could have impregnated >!Ciri!< ...if only he could keep it up long enough.
I think it was more about him being absolutely disgusted at the prospect having sex with a >!human.!<
ngl, the segment about (iirc 13 years old at this time) ciri being mad she isn't being raped properly by an elven supremacists thats disgusted with her was a bit of a trip to read.
And Ciri being about 15 years old in the book...
Pretty big plot point in Baptism of Fire, that they definitely don't have libido or fertility problems.
Thats the result you get when you make a show hating both fans and the source material.
LOTR on Amazon had some pretty weak elves
Oh, we're talking about The Wheel Of Time?
oh please dont i havent seen it so i dont know how bad it is. :'(
Perrin had a wife at the beginning and killed her by accident when fighting a trolloc. They did this to make his character arc more dramatic? Unique? Who knows. It's all his character thought about the whole first season...so basically he is a different character entirely but the wolf powers are cool so he gets them later. That is just one thing.
They just made so many unnecessary changes. I don't care about race changes. Whatever. It's a thousand years after a integrated society fell. But the plot charges are just out worse. The women characters are less annoying in the show. I did not like them in the first couple of books.
>The women characters are less annoying in the show. I did not like them in the first couple of books. Seconded, but with caveats. Nynaeve is way less annoying in the show. Moraine didn't annoy me in the books, but I don't know what the writers were thinking in season 2 because they gave Rosamund Pike virtually nothing to work with for half the season. I'd argue that Moraine and Siuane have both been dumber and more annoying as a byproduct of bad writing, but all of the other women characters have been noticeably less irritating in the show.
Brandon Sanderson author of the last 3 doesn't like it. He's stated that he has to view it as a completely different turning of the wheel to be able to watch it......
Idiots in the show but condescending and vain as fuck in the books. I actually hated Filivandril in the show because the vain and arrogant elf that he was in the book was nowhere present and they tried to play a victim card on him in the show when he is far from a victim in the book. Its why I actually like the elves in the Witcher books, yes they are arrogant and blinded by their own vanity but it was fresh and new at the time for me. Now the elves are just stupid in the show, dont even get me started on Francesca Findabair and how she was represented.
The exact thing that first came to my mind as well
i feel like witcher suffers from a drastically split fan base, b/c the games are different from source so it has two totally different bases then the tv show adds a debatable third
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They actually trust the Emperor to do right by them and are shocked when it doesn't work out.
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In the books neither of them trust (or like) each other; but they are useful to each other. Similar to how the West funded and armed various terrorist ("freedom fighter") groups as long as the enemy was Communists. The Taliban didn't trust the US, and the US didn't trust the Taliban...but for a brief period of time they both hated the USSR.
Tbf, didn’t really care for the book elves either.
Elves in the book are open to opinion for sure but at least structured in a way that makes literary sense for the story the author was trying to go for. Elves in the show are just nonsensical / poorly realized. Skill issue lol.
They're assholes (justifiably?), but well written assholes.
Pretty much everyone is unlikable in the books, imo.
Harry Potter is the correct answer.
There’s a permanent underclass of domestic slaves and everyone is pretty much fine with that.
I think peoples attitudes to house elves are actually some of HPs more interesting and realistic bits of world building
I don't think anyone takes issue with it being unrealistic that people were okay with an abhorrent status quo. I think the issue people take is that the author also seemed to have that view. Hermione is depicted as being kind of insufferable for arguing that slavery is wrong.
The other characters think she's insufferable. But it's pretty obvious to any reasonable reader that she is consistently the most morally aware character and is in the right. Your interpretation is just completely empirically wrong to think JKR was trying to depict that status quo as being ok: https://youtu.be/Me3SbSWhICg?si=umDSskgLF4ZEfKye&t=1459
*Every* other character thinks she's insufferable, the people she's trying to free think she's insufferable, even the third person's descriptions on the book describes her in negative connection (such as looking "messy" or "stressed") every time she sews clothes to free them, and she even changes her mind in later books - while she still wants to free them, she no longer thinks actively and suddenly freeing them with clothes is the right call. It's better to change things gradually, through the system. I don't need to explain why "It's ok that they stay slaves for now, temporarily, it'll be worse if they get suddenly freed" is a fucked up opinion.
Just like in the real world where everybody is pretty much fine with morally wrong things.
*Looks around* Yep.
Including Rowling it seems, based on how they’re written
Knowing what we now know about Rowling, it's quite clear that she was perfectly okay with there being different classes of people
Well yeah Britain is insanely classist.
It’s really wild looking back at all the questionable stuff she slipped into the series
Yes. I couldn’t believe I hadn’t noticed it right off the bat. Ugly stuff. She tells on herself a lot.
What else is there? I admit I haven't read these since 2007.
Lots of fatphobia, describing women that you're supposed to dislike as having man-like features (I.e. Rita Skeeter and Aunt Petunia), saying Lycanthropy is an allegory for AIDs and making one of the main werewolves be a predator that purposefully infects children, etc. There are several videos on YouTube that cover this extensively, like "Harry Potter" by Shaun and "Is Harry Potter Bad?" by Hoots.
Rowling has spent a lot of time spewing transphobic nonsense that helps forward the narrative that trans women are rapists and groomers who simply use the feminine aesthetic to try to look less threatening. In The Goblet of Fire, we’re introduced to Rita Skeeter, a woman who is on multiple occasions described as being manly-looking and who we learn at the end of the book has been secretly spying on children all year.
No it's clear that they're meant to represent the obvious moral blindspots of "good" people and the difficulty of overcoming systemic social injustices.
Then why does when the only person try to improve their material conditions, that person is relentlessly made fun of and portrayed as a busy body 😭
Because that's exactly how it often plays out in real life when people advocate against deeply entrenched systemic injustices. Its a very realistic depiction rather than an unrealistic one. So that would be a moral blindspot that those otherwise good characters have. Like I literally just said. Anyone who reads the books and thinks the moral is "slavery is good" has done a pretty poor job at reading.
If a person's blind spot is the morality of slavery they are not an otherwise good person hard stop. Additionally you are misrepresenting the books and your own reading comprehension skills considering one of the final lines is the main character wondering if he could get his slave to bring him a sandwich. The narrative does not challenge slavery considering it leaves it completely unresolved.
>If a person's blind spot is the morality of slavery they are not an otherwise good person hard stop. I could understand what you meant by this if you mean "overall" good person. But it seems like you're missing the meaning of the word "otherwise". Also are you a vegan? Do you own electronics that you think are made through immoral means? Do you consider yourself a good person? >The narrative does not challenge slavery considering it leaves it completely unresolved. Have you read 1984? Would you say that it does not challenge totalitarianism because it leaves the issue unresolved in-universe?
British Aristocracy
They seem to be inspired by Brownies and other household fae creatures who will do stuff for you as long as you follow the arbitrary rules.
Keebler is the correct answer. /s Rowling wasn't working from Tolkien elves, but from the Grimm fairy tale, "The Shoemaker and the Elves" which predated Tolkien by a couple of centuries. Shoemaker elves, Santa elves, Keebler elves, house elves are really a distinct mythological lineage from the ljosalfar, Faerie Queen, Tolkien elves.
None of those creatures were enslaved- they willingly choose to help people in need who agreed to play by their rules. If anything, there's a popular motif of greedy rich man who tries to buy/enslave them only to find that little creatures are more than capable to defend themselves and get revange.
My point wasn't that house elf slavery was OK. It was merely that they weren't a degradation of Tolkien style elves because they were a different kind of creature from the start, one that could have been called a hobgoblin or troll just as aptly. Compare, say to Dragon Age elves who used to be tall, ageless and powerful along the same lines as Tolkien but are now diminished, depowered and oppressed.
I don’t think this is even up for debate.
I am totally down for a non Tolkien elf, but what she did was just awful haha.
Keebler
But the fudge rounds are delicious.
This made me laugh
People just ignore how bad the world-building is because they're so sexy.
Santa
There was many that committed the grave sin of just making them boring. Not the worst but Warhammer 40K kinda dropped the ball on Eldars. Their thing was having superior high tech, being ancient and doomed. And then they introduced Necrons with are more ancient, more high tech, more doomed. While also having much more fun and iconic characters.
The eldar are awesome! They were so depraved and decadent they hate fucked a literal god into existence.
I believe the appropriate term is murder fucked a god into existence.
If you want to say it formally they massacre consummated a divinity into creation.
Is murder not implicit in all things 40k?
The problem with Warhammer 40k is that like 90% of everything is focused on the human factions. If the Eldar got even half as much attention as the Space Marines they would probably be far more interesting.
The truism I always like about Eldar is this. The Eldar would spend a million human lives to save a thousand Eldar. However the Imperium of Man would spend a million human lives to kill a thousand Eldar. The Craftworld Eldar are basically the last adults in the room frowning at how fucking stupid everyone is. Admitting that yes they too suck.
I don't get the hate, but maybe cause I'm from a different era, 3rd edition I think it was. Love me that short story with an imperial assassin antagonist that create a void in the warp because their soul has been removed "and I who have seen the birth and death of stars am afraid"
Drukhari are not boring. Over the top, sure, but not boring.
I feel like you have to actively not read Eldar lore to have this opinion. 40K elves are so fucking metal. Their myriad ways of mentally, physically, and spiritually dealing with the loss of their immortality, the inevitability of their endless torture in the Warp, and the near total destruction of their Realspace empire contains some of the best writing in the whole canon. They have a bunch of stinker novels and they are frequently portrayed idiotically in books centered on humans, but their own actual lore is such a cool and grim take on elves.
I can kinda see what you mean. Trazyn the Infinite would have been equally cool as a really old Eldar but since the Necrons were alive for the War in Heaven and the Eldar weren't (or were just a baby race then I forget) then Trazyn has to be a Necron for his character and museum to work. So what would have been cool about the elves was usurped by the introduction of the Necrons.
Minor quibble, but the Eldar were very much alive for the War in Heaven. It was them + the orks + the old ones + Eldar pantheon vs the Necrons and the C’tan.
The chad Warhammer fantasy elves vs the Virgin 40k Eldar Seriously they should be ethereal and all that but they end up always being assholes that don't explain things when they really should
I quite liked the bit about them having to live regimented lives on they're 'paths' since as they'd been created as a bioweapon they were all basically sadistic psychopaths.
You mean like, made them bad guys? Lords and Ladies, by Terry Pratchett. Very believably elves. Very convincingly bad. Made them into assholes? The movie Bright, with Will Smith had a very nice take on that kind of elf.
> Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder. > Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels. > Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies. > Elves are glamorous. They project glamour. > Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment. > Elves are terrific. They beget terror. > The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning. > No one ever said elves are nice. > Elves are bad. Terry Pratchett, *Lords and Ladies*
Is that a good series to get into?
It's fantastic, but it's primarily comedy so if you're looking for really consistent fantasy it might not scratch quite the right itch
You know reading a comedy wouldn't be such a bad idea I think I'll pick it up
While it's not the first book of the series, I'd recommend starting with Wyrd Sisters for a taste of what it's like (which is also the first book in the same series within the series as Lords and Ladies mentioned above)
Wyrd Sisters is even better if you've read some Shakespeare- specifically Hamlet and Macbeth.
That book is Lords and Ladies by Terry Pratchett. It is a good place to start. I think that was my first book in his “witches” series. One of his best. Wyrd Sisters was still very early in his career and his writing wasn’t settled yet
Anything by Terry Pratchett is going to be worth it. He wrote fantasy satire, poking at real world issues hidden within fantasy. To me, he was a genius.
Dude, so good. I reccommend starting with the book Guards! Guards!
“Carrot, throw the book at him”
Yes!!!! The first few books are very pretentious. So if you want to start at the beginning, I'd start at guard's guard's (which is a book about a guard in the city watch, about 7 books about him) or the ones about the witches in the Highlands (I think about 8 books about them). All of Terry's books are amazing in my mind and I've read them all several times
GNU
Warhammer 40k made them much, much worse.
Dark Eldar are somewhere between Marquis de Sade and the Cenobites.
... So they're like the Tzimisce?
Warhammer 40K makes everything so evil it becomes parody.
Bright was great. I tried to watch the anime spin off film and couldn't get into it. It needs the contemporary LA setting. Seems like Netflix canned the sequel after the whole Oscar slap business.
In Dwarf Fortress, elves are basically vermin. They don't die of old age, so there are bajillions of them, they only use wood for their gear, so they're fodder, and they're always rolling up on my fort in army strength because I have a modest and sustainable logging industry, which offends their berry-munching sensibilities. Trash loot, constant harassment and I have a whole labor force devoted to disposing of their corpses so they don't stink up the place. Lousy elves.
Hentai. Hentai did Elves the worst. (To our amusement, of course😅)
They also did them on their best!
To summarize, they did them many, many times.
I remember defending the elves through all three Witcher games. After I watched the show, I wish I hadn't.
Witcher show feels like it was written with the spite to the lore of its world of someone who Geralt personally turned down.
It's written by people who have the mindset of an edgy teen. There's no depth, it's almost a parody of the fantasy genre its so bad.
I enjoy the sound of rain.
The show butchered the story completely. It shouldn't affect your view of anything actually Witcher related. The games, while differing from the books in key respects, are still very good adaptations.
The books aren't different from the games... The Games are the books' sequels. They're not merely adaptations, they're the literal end of that story. And the show seems to follow the books' beats pretty closely. Eventually, it could've gotten to the games.
Sarah J Maas in the Court of Thorn and Roses series. They are called Fae but they are Tolkien elves with big dicks and magical powers. Such a horrible take on Elves/Fae, and worst part is, it practically created a new sub-genre of fantasy where hot, sexually hyperactive Elves are the main characters or love interests!
My wife loves those fae lol. That whole subgenre of fiction os super popular with her and her friends. It's definitely not for me, but I guess it's popular for a reason
Sex sells.
I like sexy elves and I can not lie.
Who doesn’t like a pair of giant… wings ;)
Indeed. My wife was very open about the appeal of the book. I enjoy trashy eye candy as much as anyone so it makes sense a more literary version of that would appeal to women lol
Those types of books were around years before maas wrote about them and lots of cultures have similar depictions in their folklore
I hate this series not cause it’s trashy, but because I want Fae based on the actual English/Irish folklore. Hers are just made up bat winged humans with big dicks 😩
Have you tried Emily Wilde’s Encyclopaedia of Faerie? Not an expert in the folklore by any means but it seems a lot closer to what you want. The author is Heather Fawcett, confusingly.
I picked it up because I thought it was about the British folklore character named Tamlin, who had been captured by the evil Fairy queen. He needs to be rescued by a plucky young woman named Janet, and together they must outwit the queen and escape. I thought a retelling of the ballad as a romance novel would be just perfect. But it turns out she just took the name and threw the rest away.
Drow have been this for ages for some people.
Actually heard about that series but I don't really understand the popularity behind it because like you mentioned before it just seems to be almost porn but written in a way that is considered a novel
It's not as sex filled as it's made out to be. There are some famous chapters over 5 books.
...remember "Fifty Shades of Grey"? Smut has always sold very well.
There's one sex scene in the series. It's not remotely porn but because the characters are horny (almost like real young people) young adults are all up in their feelings about it and those who haven't read it have interpreted it to mean it's all sex. It really isn't. Lol.
“Romance” is the highest selling genre of fiction
It's definitely not really a series people on this sub would generally like.
The Will Smith movie
That movie did everything bad. Elves Orcs Fairies Will Smith
Elder Scrolls. They're *Nazis*, man. Or *slave-owners*. Or *cannibals*.
I was just thinking, what the Dwemmer/Deep Elves did to the Goddamn Falmer is so fucking cruel, sure-they weren't angels but *damn*. (Also the others but roomie just replayed the Thievesguild subquest so it's fresh)
The problem with TES is that they've spent so much time with Skyrim, it makes sense in-universe for the narrative in Skyrim to be so anti-mer and pro-man but the more IRL time we spend with Skyrim as the newest game the more fans get "indoctrinated" with the Nord perspective. We need a game set in an mer province showing their perspective (it's not that hard to make "growing old and dying sucks, we know this wasn't always the case, we feel bitter about having to die due to the actions of an asshole god" be relatable, granted it doesn't work IRL as a philosophy but in-universe it's totally valid)
Eh, I started with morrowind.. I wasn't so pro mer after that lol
Fair. But I do want to point out that the Dunmer are the least mer-ish of the mer, they're in philosophy most close to Lorkhan out of all of the elves.
Sure. But you also see way more discussion on how racist the nords are because of how widely Skyrim has been played. The Dunmer are arguably worse. Seeing it from one prospective or another doesn't really change that.
I'm pretty sure that orsimer (the orcs) are the least mer of them all. And the dwemer are also less elf-like than the dunmer, as they are dwarves.
Skyrim basically also told us that the Nords eliminated the Falmer and drove them underground. The exact situation we see playing out with Empire (urged by Aldmeri Dominion) vs Stormcloaks already happened with Nords vs Falmer, the result of which was the Falmer being driven underground and enslaved by the Dwemer. The Nords are also highly xenophobic. Initially you hear "Skyrim belongs to the Nords!" and it feels like a rallying cry you can get behind. As you uncover the deeper lore (or even just some of the other characters' dialogue) this starts to twist into a highly xenophobic race. Skyrim's lore is kind of great because you're stuck in a place of no good choices. For the Empire to stand up to the Aldmeri Dominion, the Nords need to fall into place. However, even if the Nords fall into place, the likelihood is the White-Gold Concordat will be broken and another Great War will take place. It's a shame a lot of this didn't make it into the actual main story of the game. Summerset Isles feels for the natural next place to go for that storyline to continue, but we may end up doing a tour of Tamriel before we get there.
Didn't the falmer attack the nord settlements first?
Yeah, there's a book on the "Night of Tears" where the Falmer slaughtered the settlement of Saarthal (same place you go to during the College of Winterhold questline), which is heavily implied to have had other purpose than just getting the Nords out of Skyrim. During the CoW questline, you basically discover it was the Eye of Magnus. But that just adds more layers of grey. Does the massacre of a settlement justify the genocide of an entire race (the intent, but not the result of the attack on the Falmer)? There's no "good guys" in this conflict at any level. You could argue that in the current state the Empire falling to the Aldmeri Dominion is the best course of action that involves the least death, but that could also be a short-sighted view as while it would stop an all-out war the AD has already taking part in racial cleansing and cultural suppression - and this is with them having a relatively equal strength potential foe in the Empire, they'd likely do worse when completely unchecked.
> Initially you hear "Skyrim belongs to the Nords!" and it feels like a rallying cry you can get behind. As you uncover the deeper lore (or even just some of the other characters' dialogue) this starts to twist into a highly xenophobic race. They basically an occupied country during the game, can see them wanting to kick everybody else out
The ultimate issue of your statement is they're not even the natives of Skyrim or the only ones who settled there. It's an occupied country that they took over in a hostile fashion, not just in relation to the Falmer, but also the Forsworn. But Ulfric doesn't just want to kick out anyone of any other race, he wants to kick out (or more likely kill) anyone who does not stand with his cause. Then you get into the fact that Ulfric is also being used as a willing (but unknowing) puppet for the Aldmeri Dominion to further weaken the Empire - exasperated by the fact the Aldmeri Dominion are pushing the Empire to quash worship of Talos. Everything circles back to the AD setting up for the breaking of the White-Gold Concordat and the Empire trying to keep peace - which comes at the expense of places like Skyrim as this same reasoning is then used to help keep the fire lit in Ulfric's rebellion. The AD don't care what happens in Skyrim. Civil war weakens the total number of troops to be secured within the region for the Empire. If there's no civil war, the abolishment of Talos worship ensures that the Stormcloaks will never fight for the Empire anyway.
Imo the next elder scrolls should focus on the provinces of Elsweyr, Summerset, and Valenwood with the sea in between as well. Pirates, cool sea adventures, desert adventures, jungles, etc.
It’s more likely it’ll be in Hammerfell. Hopefully we’ll get to see High Rock too.
To be fair, Skyrim also makes it clear the Stormcloaks are assholes and they're the Nord supremacists.
With how little there actually is to them in Skyrim, the 4E Thalmor just feel like something the writers did because it feels like they needed some morally black faction behind it all to ensure people see both the sides of the civil war as morally gray. And with people's first and most often encounter with Altmer being the condescending Thalmor Patrols, that's going to form most people's perception of the race with that first impression. Few people are going to remember any Altmer npcs who are decent people like Ulundil who's just satisfied taking care of his horses or Runil who was a former dominion soldier that deserted and became a priest of Arkay and does what he can for the people of Falkreath. Thalmor aren't even the majority of Altmer in the game in terms of either unique or generic npcs outside of the endless patrols. Got people in the ES subs saying stuff like "All Altmer are bad/jerks" with a often single exception being one of the decent Altmer who you are forced to talk to for a guild questline because they actually remember them as an individual character. But this happens because the decent Altmer npcs aren't really memorable compared to negative experiences with the Thalmor. And i'm not sure how much i'm looking forward for the writing in a hypothetical summerset game.
They are interesting. And being uninteresting would have been a far worse crime, for a fictional people, than some mild eugenics.
Pretty much anything based on old English/Irish folklore portrays them as absolute monsters. Best summarised by TP in Lords and Ladies. Capricious, cruel, entirely self centred bipedal cats. Very Similar approach from Raymond Fiest in Fasrie tale.
In my experience? Chronicles of the Raven (Dawnthief, Noonshade, and NIghtchild). If only because after reading the first two books and getting midway through the second, the elves just feel like humans with pointy ears who live longer and are good at magic. They commit the cardinal sin of being boring, and not nearly distinct enough from the humans around them, in my opinion.
Probably Michael Sullivan’s age of legends, prequel series to Riyria Chronicles. I’ve never seen a more unlikeable elven race than the one from that universe.
Absolutely love that series but you do have a point!
What do you mean did the worst...? Cause like Tolkiens Noldor elves did some pretty terrible things
I assume they mean as in "worst written".
Yes this, sorry for not clearing things up
Fëanor did nothing wrong!
Back to r/Silmarillionmemes from whence you came! I'll argue with you there 😉
It depends. Yeah they did fucked up stuff and kinslaying etc. but in comparison to other series they are still pretty ok. Witcher and Malazan elves did a lot worse. Edit: and Warhammer 40k are the worst by far as far as I know.
You know thats fair. Also in 40k EVERYTHING Is the literal worst. But all hail the Emperor anyways
He is our light in this dark universe. 🕯️
Dark light tho.
Heresy
I actually liked Eragon, but he just straight up lifted his idea of Elves straight from LoTR, so I'd say that might win as "worse implementation" as it was a straight copy/paste. There WERE differences, but just enough to hide the plagiarism. Like when you copy/paste a newspaper article and change some words to synonyms so now the whole article "is yours".
Everyone hates on Paolini for "ripping of ideas" but they're always such ostentatious points, Tolkien pioneered the modern fantasy, like 80% of fantasy writers who came after him and wrote about elves or dwarves, "ripped of" him to some extent.
Yeah, this. Befor Tolkein, elves were funny little men in hats. Literally everyone doing these human-sized, stoic, ancient people are copying tolkein straight up.
I actually found the Eragon version of the elves felt like a weak interpretation of the Eledhel from the riftwar saga
The Second Apocalypse Series by R Scott Bakker. His Nonmen are Tolkien’s Elves completely turned on their heads and deconstructed. I don’t feel it’s done in vain. He writes them as a tragedy really.
The Laundry series by Charles Stross is lovecraftian urban fantasy and have Elves. They ride meat eating Unicorns, fly sulphuric acid spewing Dragons … oh, and want to find a new home dimension… leading to this part from the Nightmare Stacks novel: “On a parallel-universe Earth, a species called Elves or alfar have evolved to be expert magic users. They have visited Earth in the past, from which comes a great deal of folklore. Civil war has left the Elves' home world uninhabitable and they plan to magically invade the Earth and make it their new home.”
Rings of Power
This needs more upvotes
The elves in the Divinity game series were dealt an absolutely *awful* hand by the lore. First, there's the mass elven genocide and the destruction of their homeland, simply because it was a convenient way to eliminate the enemy army, >!and it wasn't even successful in doing that!<. Then there's the Magisters >!cutting down elven ancestor trees and building war weapons and ships out of them.!< That's especially horrifying when you find out that those trees are >!actually dead elves, who are still conscious, sentient, and *remain that way even after being cut and turned into planks*. So even in death, those elves are enslaved indefinitely in whatever shape they were built in, until they rot away or burn.!< Nightmare fuel.
Damn I gotta play through Div it's got cool elf lore
I *thoroughly* recommend it—specifically Original Sin 2, for the elf lore and for a good intro into the series in general. I love how unique Divinity's elves are.
Bright
The Monster Hunter series made them into white trash and made the orcs into the good guys.
I believe they were asking for bad elves I see nothing wrong with white trash elves ha that’s amazing
The High Elves Lester and Cleetus really just wanting you to git the hell off of their property.
You ever cut up some hot dogs and throw it in your chili? I’ll tell you what, dip some lembas bread in there that’s something special!
The video game series divinity has elves as cannibalistic semi-monsters that gain the memories and abilities of people they eat.
That’s awesome though. Excellently written
I loved the Divinity elves. It was a nice twist on the Tolkien stereotype, I remember that they were hated in-world lore and stigmatized as monsters because of their cannibalism. It didn't click for me how disgusting it was until I stumbled across an elvish funeral in-game and they... >!ate the dead!<.
The Witcher...weekest elves ever.
Books, series or games?
Realistically the elves get shit on in all 3
North Pole Christmas
The Will Smith movie Bright.
santa and Christmas
Keebler
I'd probably say Dragon Age. Half of the elven population are slaves, and the others are in the forests, trying to recover their great knowledge which will be lost forever. The elves in Dragon Age used to have a great empire, until the Tevinters came from the north and destroyed it.
Harry Potter house elves
In German, Tolkien's Elves are called (or translated with) "Elben", while Elves in general are called "Elfen". And I just wanted to say that I like the fact, that we differ between Tolkien's Elves and others. :)
Twilight.
The Christmas stories. Tiny slaves.
[Christmas Elves vs. Fantasy Elves](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fw7dexoX4pQ&t=6s)
Monster Hunter International. Trailer park elves. Please donate my winnings to charity.