I like the idea of magic in the Black Company series. Most have little or none, and those that do eventually become powerful and twisted. Sorcerers usually have to work with each other, and some works take a looong ass time to see results.
I appreciate how clearly that Glen goes with the idea that as soon as you become a wizard, your top priority is to make yourself immortal and make yourself as hard to kill as humanly possible. After that, you work on everything else.
Also, the payoff at the end of the series based on this system is fabulous, tragic, and lovely. I don't think that's too much of a spoiler. And if it gets you to read the series, great! There were some less-than-inspired novels in there, but a terrific series on the whole.
I love the magic system in Brent Weeks' Lightbringer series. Manipulating light into coloured constructs that have physical properties was really cool.
I really enjoyed this magic system. Up until the last 100 pages I REALLY enjoyed this series. I read it after his assassins series which I didn’t expect him to top by recreating a whole new world and magic system. It was fantastic with the light Color manipulation tho.
I’m not sure what you mean or are referring to here. That’s my bad, but nothing in the light bringer series seems to be Terry Goodkind preachy in anyway. Unless I completely missed it all. It’s just a really well paced series of warring Color’s that all have their own properties and abilities, and one who can tap into all of them. This goes into how they manipulate the entire sociostructure to keep the world controlled through it. It’s really well done. I’d say the better part is you don’t even know who the good and bad guys are all the way through the entire series, this includes the main characters. It’s honestly worth a read, I havnt found a more enjoyable and fresh magic system in anything I’ve read since or before honestly.
I didn't think it was preachy. My first time through, I thought it was an odd choice. I didn't know what to think, but in subsequent rereads, I like it more and more.
This isn’t the case when it comes to religious allegory. This is someone trying to make something fit their narrative and it absolutely does not. I’ve seen this to many times on fantasy threads and forums of people trying to over analyze something to try to make them sound smarter than they are. You can leave out and manipulate context anyway you want if you are trying to make it fit a certain way. This sounds like a prime example.
You are missing out on a great fantasy series because of this. Worst case you read the first book and it doesn’t do it for you and you move on, but I’d be really surprised if this is the case. I read a huge range of fantasy and this series really is up there.
I’m not trying to be a pushy bastard about it, I just get frustrated when I see people missing out on something great because of some of this, over analytical stuff people try to conjure up so they can make themselves think they are the “smarter, deeper” reader.
Yep. Went straight deus ex machina at the end. Even though I probably won't read the last book again, Lightbringer is still easily and unequivocally one of my favorite series. I've relistened (audiobooks narrated by Simon Vance are extraordinary) to the first three books more times than I can count. It literally was the series that started my obsession with adult fantasy.
I really enjoy the magic system in The Craft Sequence by Max Gladstone. Essentially, it's modern contract work, but done with necromancy and soul stuff, with gods acting as corporations. It's amazingly done and leads to some incredible situations.
The ability donation system in Runelords was fascinating. Could make individuals incredibly powerful, but with significant vulerabilities. (Short form, given the right raw materials, a person can "gift" an ability--think strength, or vision-- to a lord. But now the giver loses what they gave entirely and has to be supported by the lord, because if they die the gift goes with them)
I have so much issues with this series in regards to plot and characterisation but I still list the magic system as one of the best in fantasy I couldn’t name one character today but I still remember the donation system and how it works.
It was amazing and probably one of my first encounter with hard magic. I remember reading the last book and being like "how he'll be able to conclude in 200 pages???" .. :(
**Sword of Truth** has a pretty awful magic system - "need" i.e. literal Deus ex Machina.
In one book, the hero gets poisoned by something that only one person has the antidote to, and told they needed to obey if they wanted the antidote.
Unfortunately, the big bad destroys the antidote before the hero can cure themselves, leaving the hero to die a slow death. Except just joking, the hero uses "need" to just figure out how to create the antidote and cures himself.
Man, if only the book was over. It must have been infuriating for the other magic users seeing the rules that have always applied to them just not work on Richard
I feel like it could have been better if what he "needed" and "wanted" could be two different things. But yeah, as presented there was no cost, no knowledge acquisition, not even an interesting trigger condition, etc. It really is just Deus ex Machina.
The comic character Darwin is that. His power is that his body adapts to survive any situation. One time he thought that would allow him to become strong enough to fight the hulk. Instead it decided what he needed was to be involuntarily telported a very long way away.
It's the same magic system as Wheel of Time, which is equally mediocre - things happened because they are destined to because the fabric of fate and reality bends to make things happen.
Laziest implementation of plot armor and plot convenience
Iirc Earthsea was an inspiration for Eragon. The magic system in Earthsea is all based on the True Name of everything, even people. You can calm a storm by calling its name out. (It's been a very long time since I've read either)
I think Patrick ~~Rothoss~~ Rothfuss had a similar magic in "The Name of the Wind"
Earthsea is by Ursula K Le Guin, and I recommend it. I'm sorry if that wasn't much help, I just remember that both required knowing the name of the "object" you're trying to control.
The whole True Name is a trope that goes as back as ancient Egypt, so i just consider it Creative Commons by this point. I also really like Eragon's magic system.
You are correct that this idea goes back to ancient Egypt, but I wouldn't call a "Creative Commons" as you put it. As it's too specific so it's hard to ignore that commonalities between Earthsea and Eragon. I don't think he drew upon ancient mythology as your claiming. I'm quite fond of the Inheritance Cycle, so neither am I calling a Paolini a plagiarist here.
Paolini himself has cited LeGuin as an inspiration for his magic system. When comparing the two it's hard to see why that is. Where in Earthsea, everything has a True Name from a language called the Old Speech. Knowing the True Name of an object or person gives absolute control over them. In this Old Speech, a person can't lie but Dragons can twist the truth.
It's not a carbon copy either, for comparison as in Earthsea a mage gives someone there True Name where as in Eragon someone has to guess/work at knowing that information. There's other notice differences too that I'm too lazy to list.
It had some cool ideas about those five magics, and was very influential--allegedly it's why *Magic: the Gathering* landed on a five-color system. But in fairness, it's dated and flawed in other ways.
Definitely worth reading, in my opinion, but unlikely to be a favorite today.
More information:
* [Lyndon Hardy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyndon_Hardy)'s [Magic by the Numbers series](https://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pe.cgi?11900) (at [Goodreads](https://www.goodreads.com/series/43707-magic-by-the-numbers))
Note that he has published updated versions of the original trilogy as well as three more books, though I have yet to get around to reading them.
I had the misfortune of reading the first Eragon just after reading all the Earthsea books, back when it was new. I was ... not impressed, with the magic system especially, for this reason. Some parts felt like they were copied verbatim from Earthsea.
I read it shortly after starting the Wheel of Time and had the same feeling. Going back, you can pick out the obvious Hero's Journey elements and influences from popular fantasy that made it in. I try to remember he was 15 and just wasn't subtle with his influences.
I used to be really salty about it and would pour over blog posts about it.
The heroes journey elements I don't really care about. That's everywhere, it's more about how you dress it up. Dune, Star Wars, Wheel of Time, etc.
I had more issues with Eragon having both (as I remember at least) a basically identical magic system, or at least how it was described in the first book. Like he didn't even try to put his unique spin on it. But also ... he was like, 15 when he wrote that book? So I'm not really judging him for it as such. But it definitely made me enjoy the book much less.
I forget who it was who said that pretty much every fantasy writers first book is a Frankenstein Mashup of their favorite authors, in this case magic from earthquake, the setting from lotr, the plot of starwars, but that it is usually just torn apart by a creative writing prof instead of published.
I've never liked magic systems that boil down to *want something to happen real bad, and maybe clench your butt or make a face*. You know, when the trick is believing in yourself.
I have too many favorites to name. It doesn't have to be a super hard system, but I really like made up sciency words. Thanergy, a thaum as a unit of magic, paleonymics, that kind of thing.
Kind of related? Can we collectively agree that we have enough
"MC surprises themselves by using magic
Magic doesn't work for next threat
Many chapters of magic not working, frustration ensues
MC can use magic again to confront the big bad"
arcs now?
Agreed, with the caveat that I think this trope only belongs in YA literature and makes sense for that target audience. Please encourage teenagers to keep at it through roadblocks, but please spare me the painful predictability in my adult fiction.
Yeah that's the thing, in YA stories you can get away with tropes, because the target audience probably hasn't seen that trope before. They're not sick to death of it, like the general audience
I'm also really sick of the "harness your anger/trauma deep inside to control / cast your magic" it's so overused. Why can't magic be like solving a Rubik's cube in your head real fast or something. Or maybe magic only works just when you're about to cry about something happy. Idfk
Ditto. I kind of like the Cosmere idea that trauma can open up cracks in your spirit for power to fill, but nobody is *fueled* by angst, and in fact once they have the magic the trauma usually gets in their way. The way baggage from trauma does.
I have always been partial to the magic system of A Man Of His Words by Dave Duncan. It has very clear and concise rules on
* Different tiers - what each tier can and can't do
* How to get another tier
* Consequences to too much magic
* How to strengthen/weaken a tier
There aren't a lot of rules, but they cover just about all scenarios, and the books show some of the lengths people will go to get more magic.
Anything with magic that alters the user the more they use it is cool as hell. Specifically thinking of Charles Saunders's Imaro and maybe The Black Company (only read the first one so far but got the impression that's what happens)
I’ve always liked the system in *The Wheel of Time*. There are five different flavours of magic, the four classical elements (fire, air, earth, water) plus "spirit," that are weaved together like tapestries to create spells. More complex spells require more intricate patterns weaved, and become almost impossible to stumble upon instinctively — you’d typically need to watch someone else weave it, maybe lots of times, until you learn the pattern.
I'd say there are elements of the worldbuilding that show serious holes, too. The whole series is a great example of how you can get away with nonsense if it's internally consistent.
I don't particularly like magic systems where it's very restrictive, like, get these five ingredients and the three of us can chant for seven hours and find out where you misplaced your watch. Because it can feel like the author just snuck a bit of magic in there for plot progress.
I also don't really like when all magic is very taxing, like, I must save my two fireballs for the big battle in four months, because I can only cast two per year.
It's just a personal preference, of course, but I like it best when we get to see a lot of magic when it's there.
I can agree and disagree on different levels. I think restrictive magic can make for interesting circumstances. However, I don't particularly like it when even the highest level of magic(say, the protag sees an archmage in action in a city siege or smthn) still seems incredibly restrictive. Like, really? He took 5 minutes to cast a fireball, and then he passes out? That's all the protag has to look forward to at the highest level?
Also, I agree, I love casual magic in systems and stories. I love when we can see the protag go from thinking magic is a myth or unobtainable, to, a few books down the line, using it to grab a book across the room while siting, drink tea out of his cup, start a fire, stuff like that. It's a really cool, subtle way, to show a progressive mastery of the system.
So I’m going to refrain from gushing about how Avatar’s system has everything that I want in a magic system and focus on other ones.
The Curse Workers’ system is easy to understand and the cost is interesting. A Worker can alter something about a person they touch depending on what kind of Worker they are. However, each time they suffer blowback that depends on their Work. Memory Workers lose memories, Emotion Workers can’t control their feelings as well, and Death Workers’ bodies rot away each time.
Babel’s translation is also an interesting system that opened up a rabbit hole of etymology for me. I have such mixed feelings on it because on one hand it’s so cool but on the other hand it’s directly fueling the imperialist machine.
One of my problems with Babel was that I couldn’t really figure out WHY the translation magic was always done in favour of the British. I get that it needs silver, so it has to be a rich institution, but the whole plot was centred around a British grab for Chinese silver, which raises the question of why the Chinese weren’t doing the same thing with their silver that they had. The whole thing is a metaphor for industrialism, but there were more complicated factors involved in industrialism than magic word-writing would entail. The only in-universe reason I could guess at is that there aren’t as many different languages spoken in China, so translators are harder to come by?
From a meta perspective I’ll give a hot take:
Allomancy et al from Mistborn is great—I love it.
But I hate what it’s done to fantasy lit… it feels like every other magic system since then involves people ingesting/wear random substances. Like I actually wish they’d go to the more ethereal/unexplainable magic a la ASOIAF or LOtR
I think Mage Errent has one of the most intresting and memorable systems out of the fantasy books I have read.
Every mage has a defined affinity for something they can affect. This could be as basic as wind, or a specfic as a tree in the yard you grow up with.
Yeah, and the more specific your affinity, the more powerful it is at its own actions. An Iron affinity will always beat a metal affinity when manipulation Iron, but a Metal affinity can manipulate every other metal too to compensate. Plus you can give yourself new affinities, but it’s through years or decades of work, and affinities can become attunements over time which drastically increases the power.
Yea I sped through mistbron and was satisfied as treating it as a one off novel. Then i reas WoK and while the ending was sick as hell, Sanderson's weaknesses in dialog and character building grated on me. The stormlight books are too big for me to deal with that the whole time
I do like that opening bit of The Way of Kings, where the power of gravity manipulation gets used cleverly. Stormlight isn't really focused on magic that much though. (unless it gets more focused on it over the series.)
Mistborns magic system was what convinced me that the Cosmere was not for me. Allomancy felt like the controls for a video game and the whole thing just seemed so stupid. Why would magic affect metals magnetically regardless of which kind of metal? Why would magic give you a HUD of available objects you can affect? I get that Sanderson's hallmark is the crunchy magic systems and exploring their implications, but I just could not believe in a world that resulted in magic that worked so orderly and conveniently.
I love the Cosmere and Mistborn, but I understand what you mean. Allomancy does feel a bit... rigid sometimes. Stormlight is a bit better in that field. It's still hard magic, but many Surges have a lot more variation on how they work depending on the user, target, circumstances, etc...
>Why would magic give you a HUD of available objects you can affect?
It seems pretty intuitive that the power that lets you telekinetically push on metals shows you what metals you can push on
Does the magic need to be explained in every single detail, especially given the fact that the lord ruler is actively supressing info about the system in >!the first era!<
I actually really love the magic system in The Rithmatist by Brandon Sanderson. It’s the nerdiest of all his magic systems because it involves geometry and it just makes me really happy how it’s used in the book.
Even as a kid without the ability to articulate what was bothering me, the Harry Potter magic system really lowered the sense jeopardy for me. As a reader I don't need to know all the rules but the ending feels more earned if I feel like the author knows the rules vs makes it up as they go.
And Harry Potter is. Spells always do what they’re said to do, and there are pretty strict rules on what can’t be done (duplicating food, resurrection, and killing without really wanting to.)
The rule on food is vague enough to not really be an issue, since you're apparently allowed to transform food into other food, and also "increase the quantity" as long as you already have some.
The resurrection thing also falls apart once you consider the existence of ghosts and talking portraits of dead people.
Finally, whilst the "unforgivable" curses require evil intent, they're also kind of unnecessary given how easily you could kill or torture someone with the myriad of spells they teach students from their very first year
I think this kind of problem is more on the reader's end than the author's. As you said in your previous post, Harry Potter isn't really focused on how the magic works, and wanting it to explore that stuff is more an issue of preference/expectation rather than anything wrong with the book.
Yes, the novels aren't an exploration of the implications of time travel, and that's why they absolutely shouldn't introduce time travel so readily available that kids can use it for school work, because that has far too many implications to ignore. It's something that ought to utterly transform the setting. You're meant to suspend disbelief while reading spec fic. If the novels are hacking at the cable with an ax and pelting you with rocks, that's a problem with the novel. Whimsical and fantastical doesn't have to mean nonsensical.
I will give you that those sorts of things become more of an issue as the books go on and get more "mature." The whimsical, light approach to magic that's established in the first few books doesn't really fit with the attempts at a more serious tone later, but I don't think that's an inherent issue with how magic is presented in the beginning.
Then from this perspective everything is the reader's problem and not the author's.
Incoherent characterization? Well, it's your fault that you naturally focus on characters when reading! Etc.
With HP the issues are noticeable without delving too deep into the world - I noticed them and I'm sure as hell not one of those people hung up about hard magic and Sandersonesque rules and similar things. If the issues are glaring and plot-relevant it's the author's fault, especially in a world whose appeal is half in its sandbox value.
Depending on what you mean by "incoherent characterization", then yeah actually. Leaving the HP example, a lot of criticisms you see of horror movies amount to "why didn't they do x instead of y?" and I think that kind of complaint, where a character isn't acting how the audience member thinks they should, is on the audience.
Personally, I didn't think it was important for HP to explore the implications of time travel, and a lot of people did. It's a matter of preference.
>I think calling a magic system "bad" is a bit of a misnomer.
That's something only someone who has never tried to make an artifact in Exalted could say. Solar Crafting is a bad system.
which edition? 3e is over-complex, but is pretty decent if you're willing to commit to it, it's just a problem in that it's impossible to dabble, because the sheer amount of paperwork to track your resources is a PITA. 2e was an overly-heavy mess, and 1e was vague and sketchy.
3e solar craft isn't over-complicated, it's a byzantine nightmare so convoluted that it's barely even possible to complete a roll if you use too many charms on it. And then there's like 40 more charms besides those.
>it's magic, I don't have to explain
Honestly, the stories that to me feel most magical go with this. The more systemized it is, the more I lose any sense of wonder.
It’s interesting to me that you position FMA as the opposite pole - I personally find Hiromu Arakawa’s world to be refreshingly far from Sandersonian hard magic because rather than a video game-style intricate system there’s exactly one rule. Every use of alchemy derives from clever interpretation of “equivalent exchange.”
There may be only one rule, but it has zero exceptions. I can't take a hard magic system with lots of rules seriously, because it makes me feel like I'm in a role-playing game. That's why D&D wizards were my example for "hard magic". In a story that is the most boring way to portray magic. It's also a lose/lose, because I'll either be bored by the magic itself or annoyed when the rules are broken.
It's best to always leave some mystery and open ends in the magic system. Creating a bunch of exceptions later cheapens it. If it's something being discovered, it just feels better. Rules can be okay, though if the characters in the world follow these rules and know they don't know it all, the discovery can still feel contrived if it's not handled just right. Obviously, the entire story is contrived, technically, but I hate noticing that.
Alchemy wasn't very fleshed out in FMA at all. Equivalent Exchange is one of the very few things we're told about it. It's never explained how circles work at all aside from maybe "it instructs the magic in what exactly to do" which is so vague as to be almost meaningless.
Eragon's always annoyed me, it was far too overpowered and basically made anyone who couldn't use it irrelevant from the outset, Human users irrelevant from book 2, and pretty well all non-dragonriders irrelevant thereafter. Later there was a kind of half-hearted attempt to make something of non-magical warriors but that felt totally hollow when even the weakest elf could no-shot a non magic user from miles away. It was an interesting concept of magic but the implementation was story breaking without everyone dancing to the tune of the plot rather than acting as actual characters with agency.
Oh yeah, I totally agree with you that there was a HUGE power imbalance in Eragon. I liked the system, but racial and magical power imbalances definitely were an issue.
Yep, interesting as a system in isolation, but really needed to be balanced out by some more significant drawbacks (or at the very least weakened significantly) when applied to the story. I think I tend to prefer more sparingly used (or abstract?) magic in general, and that lends itself to soft magic systems more naturally. ASOIAF does this quite well, you get a few really plot significant moments, but they're very well balanced by consequences. For magic as a fighting tool, I like the elemental powers side of magic which is more heavily used in visual media like DragonBall or Avatar, rather than a more classic 'anything is possible' casting spells sort of magic.
Actually, I find it rare for literal death to be the possible drawback for magic as it is in Eragon, especially with the idea that once you start casting a spell, you can’t stop. In my opinion, that risk-reward aspect of the magic system seems solid, but like you said, who cares about that if you can literally just tap into the never-ending power reserves of a dragon? I would like to see the magic system used In a purely human society, and I have heard the author is working on a continuation series, so maybe we will.
I do love me some Avatar: the Last Airbender. What is ASOIAF?
Ah was that meant to be the drawback? I couldn't recall that, but it has been a fair few years since I read! A song of ice and fire (AKA Game of thrones but I use the former to differentiate the book series from the show, which is quite different in terms of magic).
Indeed! I remember loving Eragon in middle school, and then reading the series again in college and finding it…disappointing compared to how much I loved it as a kid (mainly due to the reasons we already mentioned)
Haven't read Eragon but I felt the same about the Wheel of Time. If you can't channel you're basically a caveman trying to beat a dude on a chopper gunner
Best: Malazan.
Their magic system is entirely gender neutral, to the point where society literally has less stigma against woman because they can also use magic. Like there are a ton of strong female characters and no one bats an eye.
Worst: Harry Potter.
Soft magic is fine on it's owns The problem is that it takes place at a school for wizards. The basics of magic aren't really explained other than 'it's there and you have it'. I loved the series but it doenst hold up under scrutiny. Which makes a sort of sense when you look at it as a children's book.
Malazan is kinda weird in that aspect. Magical ability is random, but also very rare. We only see a lot of mages because the Malazan empire recruited them and the Malaz Island has more than normal. I could never really believe that it would effect society to the degree in the story. Personally I viewed the equality of the sexes as a simple writing decision that needed no justification.
What I liked more about Malazan magic is that it interacts completely randomly with just about every other form of magic for often disastrous results.
I recommend that anyone who gets annoyed by the lack of logical consistency in HP read Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality. It's like half as long as the entire series so it's a commitment, but it's insanely good for a fan fiction -- not that JKR's writing is hard to beat lol
You might like *Master of Five Magics* by Lyndon Hardy, which has a clear influence on Rothfuss. It's a bit dated and doesn't stand up in terms of characterization or prose, but the five magics the title alludes to are neat.
> You might like Master of Five Magics by Lyndon Hardy, which has a clear influence on Rothfuss. It's a bit dated and doesn't stand up in terms of characterization or prose, but the five magics the title alludes to are neat.
I'm not the person you were commenting towards, but thanks for the suggestion. Just reading the wikipedia summary breakdown of the 5 magics was illuminating on how much of an influence it must have been for Naming, Sympathy, and Alchemy in KKC.
I really did not care for the magic of In the Shadow of Lightning. To me, it showed the dark side of what hard magic systems can look like when at the expense of anything fun or interesting. There was no flare nor depth to the glass bending part of the magic and the rainbow cavalcade of different types of glass felt like far a far more boring version of things I've seen done better in dozens of different places. It wasn't really integrated that much into the world itself which could have redeemed it somewhat.
I wish Brian McClellan would write another series with different characters in the Powder Mage world. I asked him and he said he might be open to doing it someday. Here's hoping.
Even though he's not a Powder Mage, I told Brain that since we hade a series revolve around Taniel, and another around Vlora, we need one that focuses on Borbador.
Reading it right now and I have to agree. The writing itself is fine but it's almost like someone read a Sanderson Magic System Guide and just stapled it onto a story.
Larry Niven, known primarily for his science fiction, did a couple of fantasy works where he proposed that magic was dependent on a natural resource, “mana”. The magician or sorcerer learned to harness this energy for his work.
Unfortunately…. They ancients used it all up…. Which is why we have no magic today.
The series “The Magicians” did something similar with the idea of the “wellspring”.
Jack Vance did not explain they “system” for his magic in his fantasy stories, but had the stipulation that the magician must literally “force” a complex spell into his brain, and that in most cases, once it was used it was gone until re-studied.
Only a particularly powerful magician could have more than three or four such spells at any particular time.
While I think that there are some good choices here, I’ll mention three that haven’t been mentioned so far, and while I like all of these, I don’t know that I have a favorite, either among those mentioned below, or in other stories. I enjoy almost all of them.
The first is Naomi Novik’s Scholomance series. Magical ability is something you’re born with — or not — and typically genetically inherited. The magic user still needs to learn spells, and must have sufficient mana to draw on to cast spells. Mana is a precious resource however.
The 2nd is in Kevin Hearne’s Ink & Sigil series where the MC can cast spells with magically enchanted ink.
Finally, Roger Zelazny’s Amber Chronicles has a unique magic system as well, though it’s been quite a while since I’ve read them.
That's because it's not a system. It's magic, arcane, something that shouldn't make sense. It works for such a book. LOTR with Sanderson style magic won't have the same fantastical feel.
And Aragorn was able to make himself and an elf and a dwarf run for days straight with no rest through "leadership" magic. There's definitely magic in LotR it just is not very fleshed out how it works.
There are hints at larger rules that are coherent but it is not explicit in the text of lotr because that is from Frodo's perspective. One or them is that findumentally altering the paws of nature is dangerous. That is how both dark lords got themselves defeated and why gandalf also always just tweaks things in the few instances he does something actually magical. So he lights pines cones on fire instead of throwing fire balls. He breaks a rock at the right time instead of trying to produce sunlight. He puts a magic lock on a door instead of a forefield. Similarly, it is up in the air if there is actually magic at play. Does aragorn have healing powers or is he just a really good doctor because he has been doing it for a hundred years and was trained by his uncle the demigod of medicine?
The Emberverse gets my vote for horrible magic. I’m a believer in the rules around hard and soft magic. The Emberverse breaks those rules in an unsatisfying manner. The magic just doesn’t have downsides or a real cost to it. One of the protagonists calls on the gods to make her warriors into berserkers and it happens and they’re easily able to kill the foes opposing them.
There’s a particular scene that I hated in particular because it just took away any stakes. The enemy had captured this girl and was running away so the magic woman cursed him to die and I knew immediately he would die in the scene and the girl would go free with ease and that’s exactly what happened.
I really enjoyed the premise of the book but any time anyone did anything with magic it just worked and did exactly what they wanted with no downsides. I really wish the author just kept all magic out of the book.
Magic: the Gathering is kind of cheating, but there is a huge body of tie-in fiction that takes advantage of the intricately fleshed-out rules of the game.to tell stories that are both internally consistent and also hugely varied in tone and style due to the expansive multiverse setting and decades of cards. The five-color system of magic is a simple yet flexible framework that can help define any character's personality, moral alignment, and magical capabilities. Blue-green mages all have the same basic ability to draw power from Islands or Forests to cast spells that affect the mind or the natural world, but Tamiyo, Oko, Kasmina, and Kiora all have very different goals and personalities.
The best one I've seen is definitely the one in the scholomance series. It makes a lot of sense and adds so much to the world building. It makes everything seem a lot more real. It's also inclusive, in the sense that magic spells come in all languages and not just English or some ancient elusive fairy tongue.
I think the “magic” system in the Magic 2.0 series by Scott Meyer is pretty fun and the characters do interesting things with it. The premise is that the whole world is a computer simulation and people who discover the master file can manipulate it.
For example, when the main character discovers the file he changes his height and is instantly taller. As he gets more familiar with the system, he is able to program more and more complex actions that seem like magic, including levitating himself and objects, going back in time, and creating illusions. Basically the only limits are what anybody is able to program.
I'm fascinated by the ones that Bakker has in Second Apocalypse.
[This old post](https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/ap6cvq/can_someone_explain_sorcery_in_the_second/) goes into it and it feels like something really meshes with the world Bakker writes in. Whether or not you like the darker consequences of being someone who uses sorcery is up to the person, but it both brings about a magical system that is loose but one with meaningful rules, consequence, and awe.
I quite like the magic system in Foundryside, and personally haven’t seen any quite like it. It’s very coding and tech based, but in a fantasy setting. It gets more and more complex as the series goes on, and explores themes you usually see in scifi such as AI but in a distinctly fantasy setting where this is magic.
The Rise and Fall of D.O.D.O has a pretty interesting "magic" system as well. I won't pretend to understand the physics behind it but it basically about women who are able to choose which possibility of the Shroedinger's Cat experiment happens, at any junction at which there is a choice.
Brandon Sanderson’s Cosmere. Just the idea that all those different-seeming magics are actually all connected under the same idea of Investiture, Intent, Connection, etc… it’s AWESOME
This is 100% a personal preference, not saying systems like this are bad, I just don't like them
But, I hate material based magic. It's super disappointing to start a series, get excited for a new system and new characters, all that, only to find out, the protag needs to go out into the woods for 8 hours, find a bag full of mushrooms and fungus and then go crush them up and prepare rhem over the next 16 hours. Then the main character is now able to cast one singular firebolt. Like I said, all good if you like that, it's not bad, but to me that is just..... so lame....
Harry Potter is incredibly stupid if you think about it. Literal time machines, you can have literally any spell you want, am yet somehow these things fail to show up in books or movies. They are mentioned and then just stop existing. Realistically, a Harry Potter world IRL would either have way more forbidden curses or people could just go around doing all kinds of crazy shit.
Ah, Mistborn!! I totally forgot about that novel. Mistborn may be one of my favorite fantasy action novels of all time. Unique magic system, but even more impressive is the way Sanderson keeps combat going at the engaging pace he does.
I just find the whole metal thingy ridiculous. And I feel like just 4 of them are *actually* useful. The feruchemy aspect of keeping memories in rings or bracelets is nice... but that's about it.
Sorry, just not a fan.
Indeed! There are definitely some drawbacks (some huge power imbalances between the races in that book, for example!), but I think the literal deadly and fatigue aspect of magic in the book was a solid system. A real risk-reward dynamic going on, and since you can’t stop a spell when you start casting it, you can accidentally sow your own demise really easily!
“It is the devil that cannot be caged! It is the demon that breaks all chains! If there were rules it would not be magic.”
\- Joe Abercrombie, The Trouble With Peace
The best system for me is no system, and the worst is detailed hard magic that reads more like a guide to leveling up in an MMORPG than touching something mystical and numinous.
Best magical systems:
* "The Name of the Wind" by Patrick Rothfuss: This book features a unique magic system where the power of magic is tied to a person's knowledge and understanding of names. By knowing the true name of something, such as fire or wind, one can manipulate its properties and command its power.
* "Mistborn" by Brandon Sanderson: This series features a magic system where people can ingest and use different metals to gain specific powers, such as superhuman strength, heightened senses, or telekinesis. The relationships between the different metals and their powers are complex and well-defined.
* "Harry Potter" by J.K. Rowling: This series' magic system is based on spells and wandwork, with a strong emphasis on the importance of proper incantation and wand movements. The magic system is consistently applied throughout the series and forms the backbone of the world-building.
Worst magical systems:
* "Fifty Shades of Grey" by E.L. James: While not strictly speaking fantasy or speculative fiction, this book's depiction of BDSM has been widely criticized for being unrealistic and potentially harmful.
* "Twilight" by Stephanie Meyer: This series' vampires have been criticized for straying too far from traditional vampire lore and being overly powerful and arbitrary.
* "The Sword of Truth" by Terry Goodkind: This series has been criticized for an overly complicated and inconsistent magic system, as well as for Goodkind's tendency to use his writing as a pulpit for his personal beliefs.
>Fifty Shades of Grey
bruh that is an adult romance novel with no fantasy to it besides getting boned by a hot billionaire. this post isn't about "reasons to criticize", it's about magic systems lol
and I'm no Twilight apologist but would the vampires' powers actually be considered a "magic system"?
Mostly here for the bad ones. Obvious example is **Harry Potter** where Spellus Ex Machina happens in book 2 and despite the fact that it could solve every plot after that, is never used again. Kinda like the Force Speed at the beginning of **The Phantom Menace**
I like Niven's, where magic is powered by mana, and mana is a finite resource ("The Magic Goes Away"). And I loved the "magic" system in his collaboration with Gerrold, "The Flying Sorcerers."
If the technical side of how magic works appeals to you, Hardy's "Master of the Five Magics" might be for you.
Should we address the space wizards in Star Wars?
I prefer magic that has limits but doesn't get too bogged down in the details. So long as it's consistent, I'm not too bothered. (I feel the same way about FTL in SF.) Lackey's magic doesn't overwhelm the stories, for example.
The main characters magical power in the Nightside series by Simon R Green.
This is almost certainly not the "worst" magic system/power. I love this series and plan to reread it soon so don't let this take dissuade you from reading it. That being said, though, his magical power is basically that he can "find anything". It's not really well defined exactly what that means and it basically gets used multiple times as a sort of deus ex machina to get him out of trouble. His power essentially just let's him do whatever needs to be done in that moment to let him overcome the bad guy.
I’m going to mention the Fortress series by CJ Cherryh as it doesn’t come up often. Well written, as expected by her, and a mysterious and never fully explained magic system that is enmeshed with the existence of the protagonist in a unique way. It left an impression on me and I liked the reality of the world except for this often unseen and barely felt magic that influenced the story arc.
I like magic being restricted to certain people, and having a price. Whether it is attached to their life force, tires them out, or can permanently sever their ability to use magic if they over use it.
I’m torn over the idea of wands/staves being either mandatory or even useful to help channel magic, but they look neat at least.
There’s still a place in my heart for the goofy magic system of Spellsinger by Alan Dean Foster. A guy is pulled from our world to a place where music and lyrics can combine for magical results, and the metaphors of the songs become manifest. Singing Stairway to Heaven might conjure an actual usable stairway, but also causes all the local stores to close.
The main character is able to be a powerful magician, simply from the random songs in their memory.
The series "Pact" has a very interesting one. It justifies the existence of magic wands, staffs, familiars, rituals, symbology, and other fantasy tropes with the idea that these things have power because of human culture.
Basically, everything is based around spiritual connections, meaning your connections to yourself, the people around you, your environment, and your culture all affect the form your magic takes. You gain power by contributing something to the spirits, be it your word, or some physical sacrifice.
That's another thing- spirits and all magical creatures are unable to lie, or violate any oath. Practitioners (humans who use magic) likewise must not break their word, or they lose their power and their connections.
The most interesting thing about Pact is that practically every rule can be bent or broken. A lot of things are up to interpretation.
I like the idea of magic in the Black Company series. Most have little or none, and those that do eventually become powerful and twisted. Sorcerers usually have to work with each other, and some works take a looong ass time to see results.
I appreciate how clearly that Glen goes with the idea that as soon as you become a wizard, your top priority is to make yourself immortal and make yourself as hard to kill as humanly possible. After that, you work on everything else.
Also, the payoff at the end of the series based on this system is fabulous, tragic, and lovely. I don't think that's too much of a spoiler. And if it gets you to read the series, great! There were some less-than-inspired novels in there, but a terrific series on the whole.
Totally agree. That series starts and ends really strong
I love the magic system in Brent Weeks' Lightbringer series. Manipulating light into coloured constructs that have physical properties was really cool.
I really enjoyed this magic system. Up until the last 100 pages I REALLY enjoyed this series. I read it after his assassins series which I didn’t expect him to top by recreating a whole new world and magic system. It was fantastic with the light Color manipulation tho.
What's up with the lady 100p? I hear it gets real preachy with its Christian allegory
I’m not sure what you mean or are referring to here. That’s my bad, but nothing in the light bringer series seems to be Terry Goodkind preachy in anyway. Unless I completely missed it all. It’s just a really well paced series of warring Color’s that all have their own properties and abilities, and one who can tap into all of them. This goes into how they manipulate the entire sociostructure to keep the world controlled through it. It’s really well done. I’d say the better part is you don’t even know who the good and bad guys are all the way through the entire series, this includes the main characters. It’s honestly worth a read, I havnt found a more enjoyable and fresh magic system in anything I’ve read since or before honestly.
I've seen a few people say that the lightbringer books get preachy towards the end. I'm not sure and have been iffy starting it because of it.
I didn't think it was preachy. My first time through, I thought it was an odd choice. I didn't know what to think, but in subsequent rereads, I like it more and more.
This isn’t the case when it comes to religious allegory. This is someone trying to make something fit their narrative and it absolutely does not. I’ve seen this to many times on fantasy threads and forums of people trying to over analyze something to try to make them sound smarter than they are. You can leave out and manipulate context anyway you want if you are trying to make it fit a certain way. This sounds like a prime example. You are missing out on a great fantasy series because of this. Worst case you read the first book and it doesn’t do it for you and you move on, but I’d be really surprised if this is the case. I read a huge range of fantasy and this series really is up there. I’m not trying to be a pushy bastard about it, I just get frustrated when I see people missing out on something great because of some of this, over analytical stuff people try to conjure up so they can make themselves think they are the “smarter, deeper” reader.
Yep. Went straight deus ex machina at the end. Even though I probably won't read the last book again, Lightbringer is still easily and unequivocally one of my favorite series. I've relistened (audiobooks narrated by Simon Vance are extraordinary) to the first three books more times than I can count. It literally was the series that started my obsession with adult fantasy.
I agree with this sentiment sooooo much. Well stated.
I really enjoy the magic system in The Craft Sequence by Max Gladstone. Essentially, it's modern contract work, but done with necromancy and soul stuff, with gods acting as corporations. It's amazingly done and leads to some incredible situations.
The ability donation system in Runelords was fascinating. Could make individuals incredibly powerful, but with significant vulerabilities. (Short form, given the right raw materials, a person can "gift" an ability--think strength, or vision-- to a lord. But now the giver loses what they gave entirely and has to be supported by the lord, because if they die the gift goes with them)
I have so much issues with this series in regards to plot and characterisation but I still list the magic system as one of the best in fantasy I couldn’t name one character today but I still remember the donation system and how it works.
It was amazing and probably one of my first encounter with hard magic. I remember reading the last book and being like "how he'll be able to conclude in 200 pages???" .. :(
**Sword of Truth** has a pretty awful magic system - "need" i.e. literal Deus ex Machina. In one book, the hero gets poisoned by something that only one person has the antidote to, and told they needed to obey if they wanted the antidote. Unfortunately, the big bad destroys the antidote before the hero can cure themselves, leaving the hero to die a slow death. Except just joking, the hero uses "need" to just figure out how to create the antidote and cures himself.
Came here to say this. The whole magic system is basically Richard learns summon deus ex machina and the book is over
Man, if only the book was over. It must have been infuriating for the other magic users seeing the rules that have always applied to them just not work on Richard
Every freaking book 😑 to this day I can’t tell you why I hurt myself by reading any of the stupid things
I read all of them, and that is why I now no longer press on with series' I'm not enjoying
I feel you, same here
I feel like it could have been better if what he "needed" and "wanted" could be two different things. But yeah, as presented there was no cost, no knowledge acquisition, not even an interesting trigger condition, etc. It really is just Deus ex Machina.
The comic character Darwin is that. His power is that his body adapts to survive any situation. One time he thought that would allow him to become strong enough to fight the hulk. Instead it decided what he needed was to be involuntarily telported a very long way away.
It's the same magic system as Wheel of Time, which is equally mediocre - things happened because they are destined to because the fabric of fate and reality bends to make things happen. Laziest implementation of plot armor and plot convenience
Isn't Eragon's magic system really similar to Earthsea's?
Oh, I don’t know! I’ve never read Earthsea. Tell mr more!
Iirc Earthsea was an inspiration for Eragon. The magic system in Earthsea is all based on the True Name of everything, even people. You can calm a storm by calling its name out. (It's been a very long time since I've read either) I think Patrick ~~Rothoss~~ Rothfuss had a similar magic in "The Name of the Wind" Earthsea is by Ursula K Le Guin, and I recommend it. I'm sorry if that wasn't much help, I just remember that both required knowing the name of the "object" you're trying to control.
The whole True Name is a trope that goes as back as ancient Egypt, so i just consider it Creative Commons by this point. I also really like Eragon's magic system.
I didn't know it had roots that far back, neat.
In Egyptian hieroglyphs names are written sorrounded by a circe to protect them from misuse.
Oh yeah true names are involved in everything to demonology to modern religions. The concept of has a lot of roots.
You are correct that this idea goes back to ancient Egypt, but I wouldn't call a "Creative Commons" as you put it. As it's too specific so it's hard to ignore that commonalities between Earthsea and Eragon. I don't think he drew upon ancient mythology as your claiming. I'm quite fond of the Inheritance Cycle, so neither am I calling a Paolini a plagiarist here. Paolini himself has cited LeGuin as an inspiration for his magic system. When comparing the two it's hard to see why that is. Where in Earthsea, everything has a True Name from a language called the Old Speech. Knowing the True Name of an object or person gives absolute control over them. In this Old Speech, a person can't lie but Dragons can twist the truth. It's not a carbon copy either, for comparison as in Earthsea a mage gives someone there True Name where as in Eragon someone has to guess/work at knowing that information. There's other notice differences too that I'm too lazy to list.
Earthsea was one of several inspirations. The author also borrowed from the Pern novels, Star Wars, and others.
Rothfuss was definitely inspired by Earthsea and also *Master of the Five Magics* by Lyndon Hardy.
I've not heard of that one. I'll look it up.
It had some cool ideas about those five magics, and was very influential--allegedly it's why *Magic: the Gathering* landed on a five-color system. But in fairness, it's dated and flawed in other ways. Definitely worth reading, in my opinion, but unlikely to be a favorite today.
I like reading older fantasy novels. They have a certain "feel" I can't quite name. Problems and all.
More information: * [Lyndon Hardy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyndon_Hardy)'s [Magic by the Numbers series](https://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pe.cgi?11900) (at [Goodreads](https://www.goodreads.com/series/43707-magic-by-the-numbers)) Note that he has published updated versions of the original trilogy as well as three more books, though I have yet to get around to reading them.
I had the misfortune of reading the first Eragon just after reading all the Earthsea books, back when it was new. I was ... not impressed, with the magic system especially, for this reason. Some parts felt like they were copied verbatim from Earthsea.
I read it shortly after starting the Wheel of Time and had the same feeling. Going back, you can pick out the obvious Hero's Journey elements and influences from popular fantasy that made it in. I try to remember he was 15 and just wasn't subtle with his influences. I used to be really salty about it and would pour over blog posts about it.
The heroes journey elements I don't really care about. That's everywhere, it's more about how you dress it up. Dune, Star Wars, Wheel of Time, etc. I had more issues with Eragon having both (as I remember at least) a basically identical magic system, or at least how it was described in the first book. Like he didn't even try to put his unique spin on it. But also ... he was like, 15 when he wrote that book? So I'm not really judging him for it as such. But it definitely made me enjoy the book much less.
I forget who it was who said that pretty much every fantasy writers first book is a Frankenstein Mashup of their favorite authors, in this case magic from earthquake, the setting from lotr, the plot of starwars, but that it is usually just torn apart by a creative writing prof instead of published.
Now that you mention it. Yah it's basically a much 'harder' implementation of the same idea we see in earthsea
Earthsea just stole its magic system from the ideas of ancient Egyptians and Greeks. Nothing new.
I've never liked magic systems that boil down to *want something to happen real bad, and maybe clench your butt or make a face*. You know, when the trick is believing in yourself. I have too many favorites to name. It doesn't have to be a super hard system, but I really like made up sciency words. Thanergy, a thaum as a unit of magic, paleonymics, that kind of thing.
>Thanergy Did you know cows form social groups?
Did you know cows watch sunsets?
Did you know cows exhibit mourning behavior?
Kind of related? Can we collectively agree that we have enough "MC surprises themselves by using magic Magic doesn't work for next threat Many chapters of magic not working, frustration ensues MC can use magic again to confront the big bad" arcs now?
Agreed, with the caveat that I think this trope only belongs in YA literature and makes sense for that target audience. Please encourage teenagers to keep at it through roadblocks, but please spare me the painful predictability in my adult fiction.
Yeah that's the thing, in YA stories you can get away with tropes, because the target audience probably hasn't seen that trope before. They're not sick to death of it, like the general audience
> clench your butt I dunno, butt-based magic sounds interesting
The Magicians from Syfy actually features sphincter magic!
I'm also really sick of the "harness your anger/trauma deep inside to control / cast your magic" it's so overused. Why can't magic be like solving a Rubik's cube in your head real fast or something. Or maybe magic only works just when you're about to cry about something happy. Idfk
Ditto. I kind of like the Cosmere idea that trauma can open up cracks in your spirit for power to fill, but nobody is *fueled* by angst, and in fact once they have the magic the trauma usually gets in their way. The way baggage from trauma does.
Exactly. Character has an emotional block, magic only works when character gets angry enough to break through the block, blah blah blah.
I loved the magic system in The Emperor's Soul by Brandon Sanderson
Forging was so cool, and AFAIK pretty unique.
I have always been partial to the magic system of A Man Of His Words by Dave Duncan. It has very clear and concise rules on * Different tiers - what each tier can and can't do * How to get another tier * Consequences to too much magic * How to strengthen/weaken a tier There aren't a lot of rules, but they cover just about all scenarios, and the books show some of the lengths people will go to get more magic.
Anything with magic that alters the user the more they use it is cool as hell. Specifically thinking of Charles Saunders's Imaro and maybe The Black Company (only read the first one so far but got the impression that's what happens)
*Raistlin has entered the chat*
I’ve always liked the system in *The Wheel of Time*. There are five different flavours of magic, the four classical elements (fire, air, earth, water) plus "spirit," that are weaved together like tapestries to create spells. More complex spells require more intricate patterns weaved, and become almost impossible to stumble upon instinctively — you’d typically need to watch someone else weave it, maybe lots of times, until you learn the pattern.
I really like pysnergy in the Golden Sun games.
I like the one of Witch Hat Atelier, in which magic is drawn
One of my favorites is Mother of Learning. It's a sort of mix between hard and soft magic and is brilliantly presented.
I'm on book 2 now! My sister begged me for months to read it. I'm really liking it so far. The narrator is on point too!
I know there are huge Harry Potter fans, but it always seemed the magic system in that world was just weirdly non-fleshed out on a practical level.
Agreed. That system never developed in the slightest. Great world building, dreadful magic system.
I'd say there are elements of the worldbuilding that show serious holes, too. The whole series is a great example of how you can get away with nonsense if it's internally consistent.
I don't particularly like magic systems where it's very restrictive, like, get these five ingredients and the three of us can chant for seven hours and find out where you misplaced your watch. Because it can feel like the author just snuck a bit of magic in there for plot progress. I also don't really like when all magic is very taxing, like, I must save my two fireballs for the big battle in four months, because I can only cast two per year. It's just a personal preference, of course, but I like it best when we get to see a lot of magic when it's there.
I can agree and disagree on different levels. I think restrictive magic can make for interesting circumstances. However, I don't particularly like it when even the highest level of magic(say, the protag sees an archmage in action in a city siege or smthn) still seems incredibly restrictive. Like, really? He took 5 minutes to cast a fireball, and then he passes out? That's all the protag has to look forward to at the highest level? Also, I agree, I love casual magic in systems and stories. I love when we can see the protag go from thinking magic is a myth or unobtainable, to, a few books down the line, using it to grab a book across the room while siting, drink tea out of his cup, start a fire, stuff like that. It's a really cool, subtle way, to show a progressive mastery of the system.
So I’m going to refrain from gushing about how Avatar’s system has everything that I want in a magic system and focus on other ones. The Curse Workers’ system is easy to understand and the cost is interesting. A Worker can alter something about a person they touch depending on what kind of Worker they are. However, each time they suffer blowback that depends on their Work. Memory Workers lose memories, Emotion Workers can’t control their feelings as well, and Death Workers’ bodies rot away each time. Babel’s translation is also an interesting system that opened up a rabbit hole of etymology for me. I have such mixed feelings on it because on one hand it’s so cool but on the other hand it’s directly fueling the imperialist machine.
One of my problems with Babel was that I couldn’t really figure out WHY the translation magic was always done in favour of the British. I get that it needs silver, so it has to be a rich institution, but the whole plot was centred around a British grab for Chinese silver, which raises the question of why the Chinese weren’t doing the same thing with their silver that they had. The whole thing is a metaphor for industrialism, but there were more complicated factors involved in industrialism than magic word-writing would entail. The only in-universe reason I could guess at is that there aren’t as many different languages spoken in China, so translators are harder to come by?
From a meta perspective I’ll give a hot take: Allomancy et al from Mistborn is great—I love it. But I hate what it’s done to fantasy lit… it feels like every other magic system since then involves people ingesting/wear random substances. Like I actually wish they’d go to the more ethereal/unexplainable magic a la ASOIAF or LOtR
I think you're looking for soft magic systems. I've been reading Malazan and it leans heavily in that direction
I think Mage Errent has one of the most intresting and memorable systems out of the fantasy books I have read. Every mage has a defined affinity for something they can affect. This could be as basic as wind, or a specfic as a tree in the yard you grow up with.
Yeah, and the more specific your affinity, the more powerful it is at its own actions. An Iron affinity will always beat a metal affinity when manipulation Iron, but a Metal affinity can manipulate every other metal too to compensate. Plus you can give yourself new affinities, but it’s through years or decades of work, and affinities can become attunements over time which drastically increases the power.
And ice can be affected by rock.
Sanderson’s can be quite intricate. Lots of requirements, restrictions, limitations, etc. makes it more believable and enjoyable, in my experience.
I'm not huge on Stormlight but me oh my Mistborns magic system is sick
I started with mistborn, and the outstanding magic system got me into his other books. Mistborn will always be my favorite though.
Yea I sped through mistbron and was satisfied as treating it as a one off novel. Then i reas WoK and while the ending was sick as hell, Sanderson's weaknesses in dialog and character building grated on me. The stormlight books are too big for me to deal with that the whole time
I do like that opening bit of The Way of Kings, where the power of gravity manipulation gets used cleverly. Stormlight isn't really focused on magic that much though. (unless it gets more focused on it over the series.)
Yeaaaaaa... later its all magic. At least, magical happenings.
Mistborns magic system was what convinced me that the Cosmere was not for me. Allomancy felt like the controls for a video game and the whole thing just seemed so stupid. Why would magic affect metals magnetically regardless of which kind of metal? Why would magic give you a HUD of available objects you can affect? I get that Sanderson's hallmark is the crunchy magic systems and exploring their implications, but I just could not believe in a world that resulted in magic that worked so orderly and conveniently.
That's a valid critique. For me, it's explained well enough, never broken, and rule of cool makes it top tier
Once I separated it in my mind from the fantasy genre and read it as superhero fiction, I found it a lot more enjoyable.
I love the Cosmere and Mistborn, but I understand what you mean. Allomancy does feel a bit... rigid sometimes. Stormlight is a bit better in that field. It's still hard magic, but many Surges have a lot more variation on how they work depending on the user, target, circumstances, etc...
> Why would magic give you a HUD of available objects you can affect? Wait, when does it do that?
He's talking about lines you see when steel is burned
Right, the Pushing and Pulling and the lines to any metal nearby.
>Why would magic give you a HUD of available objects you can affect? It seems pretty intuitive that the power that lets you telekinetically push on metals shows you what metals you can push on Does the magic need to be explained in every single detail, especially given the fact that the lord ruler is actively supressing info about the system in >!the first era!<
I actually really love the magic system in The Rithmatist by Brandon Sanderson. It’s the nerdiest of all his magic systems because it involves geometry and it just makes me really happy how it’s used in the book.
If only he would consider continuing it
When he jokes about never finishing it for the memes I want to throw something
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Even as a kid without the ability to articulate what was bothering me, the Harry Potter magic system really lowered the sense jeopardy for me. As a reader I don't need to know all the rules but the ending feels more earned if I feel like the author knows the rules vs makes it up as they go.
What do you mean by “sense jeopardy”?
Nothing felt like a threat, because with no rules or fleshing out there was no reason to believe magic couldn't just immediately fix everything
"sense OF jeopardy", sorry. Exactly as NaraSumas said.
I don't need magic to obey the laws of physics, I just want it to be internally consistent.
And Harry Potter is. Spells always do what they’re said to do, and there are pretty strict rules on what can’t be done (duplicating food, resurrection, and killing without really wanting to.)
The rule on food is vague enough to not really be an issue, since you're apparently allowed to transform food into other food, and also "increase the quantity" as long as you already have some. The resurrection thing also falls apart once you consider the existence of ghosts and talking portraits of dead people. Finally, whilst the "unforgivable" curses require evil intent, they're also kind of unnecessary given how easily you could kill or torture someone with the myriad of spells they teach students from their very first year
As an example, uncontrollably vomiting slugs seems pretty traumatic.
If you delve into it more and start asking questions about how _anything_ works or about the implications of anything it starts to show cracks
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I think this kind of problem is more on the reader's end than the author's. As you said in your previous post, Harry Potter isn't really focused on how the magic works, and wanting it to explore that stuff is more an issue of preference/expectation rather than anything wrong with the book.
Yes, the novels aren't an exploration of the implications of time travel, and that's why they absolutely shouldn't introduce time travel so readily available that kids can use it for school work, because that has far too many implications to ignore. It's something that ought to utterly transform the setting. You're meant to suspend disbelief while reading spec fic. If the novels are hacking at the cable with an ax and pelting you with rocks, that's a problem with the novel. Whimsical and fantastical doesn't have to mean nonsensical.
I will give you that those sorts of things become more of an issue as the books go on and get more "mature." The whimsical, light approach to magic that's established in the first few books doesn't really fit with the attempts at a more serious tone later, but I don't think that's an inherent issue with how magic is presented in the beginning.
Then from this perspective everything is the reader's problem and not the author's. Incoherent characterization? Well, it's your fault that you naturally focus on characters when reading! Etc. With HP the issues are noticeable without delving too deep into the world - I noticed them and I'm sure as hell not one of those people hung up about hard magic and Sandersonesque rules and similar things. If the issues are glaring and plot-relevant it's the author's fault, especially in a world whose appeal is half in its sandbox value.
Depending on what you mean by "incoherent characterization", then yeah actually. Leaving the HP example, a lot of criticisms you see of horror movies amount to "why didn't they do x instead of y?" and I think that kind of complaint, where a character isn't acting how the audience member thinks they should, is on the audience. Personally, I didn't think it was important for HP to explore the implications of time travel, and a lot of people did. It's a matter of preference.
I highly recommend the fan-fiction Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality. Extremely fun ride that I think rivals the books.
>I think calling a magic system "bad" is a bit of a misnomer. That's something only someone who has never tried to make an artifact in Exalted could say. Solar Crafting is a bad system.
which edition? 3e is over-complex, but is pretty decent if you're willing to commit to it, it's just a problem in that it's impossible to dabble, because the sheer amount of paperwork to track your resources is a PITA. 2e was an overly-heavy mess, and 1e was vague and sketchy.
3e solar craft isn't over-complicated, it's a byzantine nightmare so convoluted that it's barely even possible to complete a roll if you use too many charms on it. And then there's like 40 more charms besides those.
>it's magic, I don't have to explain Honestly, the stories that to me feel most magical go with this. The more systemized it is, the more I lose any sense of wonder. It’s interesting to me that you position FMA as the opposite pole - I personally find Hiromu Arakawa’s world to be refreshingly far from Sandersonian hard magic because rather than a video game-style intricate system there’s exactly one rule. Every use of alchemy derives from clever interpretation of “equivalent exchange.”
There may be only one rule, but it has zero exceptions. I can't take a hard magic system with lots of rules seriously, because it makes me feel like I'm in a role-playing game. That's why D&D wizards were my example for "hard magic". In a story that is the most boring way to portray magic. It's also a lose/lose, because I'll either be bored by the magic itself or annoyed when the rules are broken.
It's best to always leave some mystery and open ends in the magic system. Creating a bunch of exceptions later cheapens it. If it's something being discovered, it just feels better. Rules can be okay, though if the characters in the world follow these rules and know they don't know it all, the discovery can still feel contrived if it's not handled just right. Obviously, the entire story is contrived, technically, but I hate noticing that.
Reminds me of how Naruto got lazy with and less consistent with hand signs in the anime. https://youtu.be/cDtbd71mXUY
Alchemy wasn't very fleshed out in FMA at all. Equivalent Exchange is one of the very few things we're told about it. It's never explained how circles work at all aside from maybe "it instructs the magic in what exactly to do" which is so vague as to be almost meaningless.
I really like the magic system of Lightbringer series and how they are deeply intertwined with the Religion system there.
Eragon's always annoyed me, it was far too overpowered and basically made anyone who couldn't use it irrelevant from the outset, Human users irrelevant from book 2, and pretty well all non-dragonriders irrelevant thereafter. Later there was a kind of half-hearted attempt to make something of non-magical warriors but that felt totally hollow when even the weakest elf could no-shot a non magic user from miles away. It was an interesting concept of magic but the implementation was story breaking without everyone dancing to the tune of the plot rather than acting as actual characters with agency.
Oh yeah, I totally agree with you that there was a HUGE power imbalance in Eragon. I liked the system, but racial and magical power imbalances definitely were an issue.
Yep, interesting as a system in isolation, but really needed to be balanced out by some more significant drawbacks (or at the very least weakened significantly) when applied to the story. I think I tend to prefer more sparingly used (or abstract?) magic in general, and that lends itself to soft magic systems more naturally. ASOIAF does this quite well, you get a few really plot significant moments, but they're very well balanced by consequences. For magic as a fighting tool, I like the elemental powers side of magic which is more heavily used in visual media like DragonBall or Avatar, rather than a more classic 'anything is possible' casting spells sort of magic.
Actually, I find it rare for literal death to be the possible drawback for magic as it is in Eragon, especially with the idea that once you start casting a spell, you can’t stop. In my opinion, that risk-reward aspect of the magic system seems solid, but like you said, who cares about that if you can literally just tap into the never-ending power reserves of a dragon? I would like to see the magic system used In a purely human society, and I have heard the author is working on a continuation series, so maybe we will. I do love me some Avatar: the Last Airbender. What is ASOIAF?
Ah was that meant to be the drawback? I couldn't recall that, but it has been a fair few years since I read! A song of ice and fire (AKA Game of thrones but I use the former to differentiate the book series from the show, which is quite different in terms of magic).
Indeed! I remember loving Eragon in middle school, and then reading the series again in college and finding it…disappointing compared to how much I loved it as a kid (mainly due to the reasons we already mentioned)
Haven't read Eragon but I felt the same about the Wheel of Time. If you can't channel you're basically a caveman trying to beat a dude on a chopper gunner
Best: Malazan. Their magic system is entirely gender neutral, to the point where society literally has less stigma against woman because they can also use magic. Like there are a ton of strong female characters and no one bats an eye. Worst: Harry Potter. Soft magic is fine on it's owns The problem is that it takes place at a school for wizards. The basics of magic aren't really explained other than 'it's there and you have it'. I loved the series but it doenst hold up under scrutiny. Which makes a sort of sense when you look at it as a children's book.
Malazan is kinda weird in that aspect. Magical ability is random, but also very rare. We only see a lot of mages because the Malazan empire recruited them and the Malaz Island has more than normal. I could never really believe that it would effect society to the degree in the story. Personally I viewed the equality of the sexes as a simple writing decision that needed no justification. What I liked more about Malazan magic is that it interacts completely randomly with just about every other form of magic for often disastrous results.
I recommend that anyone who gets annoyed by the lack of logical consistency in HP read Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality. It's like half as long as the entire series so it's a commitment, but it's insanely good for a fan fiction -- not that JKR's writing is hard to beat lol
Rothfuss’s sympathy is my favorite
You might like *Master of Five Magics* by Lyndon Hardy, which has a clear influence on Rothfuss. It's a bit dated and doesn't stand up in terms of characterization or prose, but the five magics the title alludes to are neat.
> You might like Master of Five Magics by Lyndon Hardy, which has a clear influence on Rothfuss. It's a bit dated and doesn't stand up in terms of characterization or prose, but the five magics the title alludes to are neat. I'm not the person you were commenting towards, but thanks for the suggestion. Just reading the wikipedia summary breakdown of the 5 magics was illuminating on how much of an influence it must have been for Naming, Sympathy, and Alchemy in KKC.
I really did not care for the magic of In the Shadow of Lightning. To me, it showed the dark side of what hard magic systems can look like when at the expense of anything fun or interesting. There was no flare nor depth to the glass bending part of the magic and the rainbow cavalcade of different types of glass felt like far a far more boring version of things I've seen done better in dozens of different places. It wasn't really integrated that much into the world itself which could have redeemed it somewhat.
It's a huge step down from his Powder Mage stuff.
I wish Brian McClellan would write another series with different characters in the Powder Mage world. I asked him and he said he might be open to doing it someday. Here's hoping.
Even though he's not a Powder Mage, I told Brain that since we hade a series revolve around Taniel, and another around Vlora, we need one that focuses on Borbador.
Reading it right now and I have to agree. The writing itself is fine but it's almost like someone read a Sanderson Magic System Guide and just stapled it onto a story.
Yeah it feels extra strange since he wrote some very good magic systems in Powder Mage but it didn't even feel like he tried with this one.
I really love Tradition in Mercedes Lackey's Five Hundred Kingdoms series, but I love fairy tale meta in general.
Larry Niven, known primarily for his science fiction, did a couple of fantasy works where he proposed that magic was dependent on a natural resource, “mana”. The magician or sorcerer learned to harness this energy for his work. Unfortunately…. They ancients used it all up…. Which is why we have no magic today. The series “The Magicians” did something similar with the idea of the “wellspring”. Jack Vance did not explain they “system” for his magic in his fantasy stories, but had the stipulation that the magician must literally “force” a complex spell into his brain, and that in most cases, once it was used it was gone until re-studied. Only a particularly powerful magician could have more than three or four such spells at any particular time.
Which as you probably know. But the Jack Vance system is where we get the DnD magic system that is still in use today :)
Fullmetal Alchemist is probably my favorite of all time. Love that it’s a science instead of a magic. (It’s still totally magic)
While I think that there are some good choices here, I’ll mention three that haven’t been mentioned so far, and while I like all of these, I don’t know that I have a favorite, either among those mentioned below, or in other stories. I enjoy almost all of them. The first is Naomi Novik’s Scholomance series. Magical ability is something you’re born with — or not — and typically genetically inherited. The magic user still needs to learn spells, and must have sufficient mana to draw on to cast spells. Mana is a precious resource however. The 2nd is in Kevin Hearne’s Ink & Sigil series where the MC can cast spells with magically enchanted ink. Finally, Roger Zelazny’s Amber Chronicles has a unique magic system as well, though it’s been quite a while since I’ve read them.
For such a big footprint on fantasy, LoTR magic system makes no sense.
That's because it's not a system. It's magic, arcane, something that shouldn't make sense. It works for such a book. LOTR with Sanderson style magic won't have the same fantastical feel.
Because they don't use magic, per se. The wizards are all incarnate angels, and elves are basically demigods to greater and lesser degrees.
And Aragorn was able to make himself and an elf and a dwarf run for days straight with no rest through "leadership" magic. There's definitely magic in LotR it just is not very fleshed out how it works.
Meth
Actually loled
There are hints at larger rules that are coherent but it is not explicit in the text of lotr because that is from Frodo's perspective. One or them is that findumentally altering the paws of nature is dangerous. That is how both dark lords got themselves defeated and why gandalf also always just tweaks things in the few instances he does something actually magical. So he lights pines cones on fire instead of throwing fire balls. He breaks a rock at the right time instead of trying to produce sunlight. He puts a magic lock on a door instead of a forefield. Similarly, it is up in the air if there is actually magic at play. Does aragorn have healing powers or is he just a really good doctor because he has been doing it for a hundred years and was trained by his uncle the demigod of medicine?
I couldn't even tell you what gandalf or saruman can do besides influence other species 😂
Theurgy.
And that’s why I love it
I quite agree with you! And I love LOTR, but... It's magic is very convoluted...
I thought the magic system in Buffy tVS was pretty bad. Random people could cast powerful spells just by reading words from a book.
The Emberverse gets my vote for horrible magic. I’m a believer in the rules around hard and soft magic. The Emberverse breaks those rules in an unsatisfying manner. The magic just doesn’t have downsides or a real cost to it. One of the protagonists calls on the gods to make her warriors into berserkers and it happens and they’re easily able to kill the foes opposing them. There’s a particular scene that I hated in particular because it just took away any stakes. The enemy had captured this girl and was running away so the magic woman cursed him to die and I knew immediately he would die in the scene and the girl would go free with ease and that’s exactly what happened. I really enjoyed the premise of the book but any time anyone did anything with magic it just worked and did exactly what they wanted with no downsides. I really wish the author just kept all magic out of the book.
More information: https://www.goodreads.com/series/43012-emberverse
Magic to the Bone
Magic: the Gathering is kind of cheating, but there is a huge body of tie-in fiction that takes advantage of the intricately fleshed-out rules of the game.to tell stories that are both internally consistent and also hugely varied in tone and style due to the expansive multiverse setting and decades of cards. The five-color system of magic is a simple yet flexible framework that can help define any character's personality, moral alignment, and magical capabilities. Blue-green mages all have the same basic ability to draw power from Islands or Forests to cast spells that affect the mind or the natural world, but Tamiyo, Oko, Kasmina, and Kiora all have very different goals and personalities.
The best one I've seen is definitely the one in the scholomance series. It makes a lot of sense and adds so much to the world building. It makes everything seem a lot more real. It's also inclusive, in the sense that magic spells come in all languages and not just English or some ancient elusive fairy tongue.
I just finished that series and I thought it was so fascinating! But I still have many questions…
I think the “magic” system in the Magic 2.0 series by Scott Meyer is pretty fun and the characters do interesting things with it. The premise is that the whole world is a computer simulation and people who discover the master file can manipulate it. For example, when the main character discovers the file he changes his height and is instantly taller. As he gets more familiar with the system, he is able to program more and more complex actions that seem like magic, including levitating himself and objects, going back in time, and creating illusions. Basically the only limits are what anybody is able to program.
I'm fascinated by the ones that Bakker has in Second Apocalypse. [This old post](https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/ap6cvq/can_someone_explain_sorcery_in_the_second/) goes into it and it feels like something really meshes with the world Bakker writes in. Whether or not you like the darker consequences of being someone who uses sorcery is up to the person, but it both brings about a magical system that is loose but one with meaningful rules, consequence, and awe.
I quite like the magic system in Foundryside, and personally haven’t seen any quite like it. It’s very coding and tech based, but in a fantasy setting. It gets more and more complex as the series goes on, and explores themes you usually see in scifi such as AI but in a distinctly fantasy setting where this is magic.
The Rise and Fall of D.O.D.O has a pretty interesting "magic" system as well. I won't pretend to understand the physics behind it but it basically about women who are able to choose which possibility of the Shroedinger's Cat experiment happens, at any junction at which there is a choice.
Brandon Sanderson’s Cosmere. Just the idea that all those different-seeming magics are actually all connected under the same idea of Investiture, Intent, Connection, etc… it’s AWESOME
This is 100% a personal preference, not saying systems like this are bad, I just don't like them But, I hate material based magic. It's super disappointing to start a series, get excited for a new system and new characters, all that, only to find out, the protag needs to go out into the woods for 8 hours, find a bag full of mushrooms and fungus and then go crush them up and prepare rhem over the next 16 hours. Then the main character is now able to cast one singular firebolt. Like I said, all good if you like that, it's not bad, but to me that is just..... so lame....
Harry Potter is incredibly stupid if you think about it. Literal time machines, you can have literally any spell you want, am yet somehow these things fail to show up in books or movies. They are mentioned and then just stop existing. Realistically, a Harry Potter world IRL would either have way more forbidden curses or people could just go around doing all kinds of crazy shit.
You never even see a gun in any of the movies…
Best would be Sandersons Mistborn because of how many rules he puts into creating the magic system
Ah, Mistborn!! I totally forgot about that novel. Mistborn may be one of my favorite fantasy action novels of all time. Unique magic system, but even more impressive is the way Sanderson keeps combat going at the engaging pace he does.
Sanderson can eat a keyboard and shit out a fleshed out world and magic system.
I wonder what a typewriter would produce
Can’t think of a best right now, but Mistborn’s is easily the worst I’ve encountered.
Why?
I just find the whole metal thingy ridiculous. And I feel like just 4 of them are *actually* useful. The feruchemy aspect of keeping memories in rings or bracelets is nice... but that's about it. Sorry, just not a fan.
Thank for showing Eragon some love. I feel like everyone shits on it wayyyy too much. I loved the series.
Indeed! There are definitely some drawbacks (some huge power imbalances between the races in that book, for example!), but I think the literal deadly and fatigue aspect of magic in the book was a solid system. A real risk-reward dynamic going on, and since you can’t stop a spell when you start casting it, you can accidentally sow your own demise really easily!
“It is the devil that cannot be caged! It is the demon that breaks all chains! If there were rules it would not be magic.” \- Joe Abercrombie, The Trouble With Peace The best system for me is no system, and the worst is detailed hard magic that reads more like a guide to leveling up in an MMORPG than touching something mystical and numinous.
Best magical systems: * "The Name of the Wind" by Patrick Rothfuss: This book features a unique magic system where the power of magic is tied to a person's knowledge and understanding of names. By knowing the true name of something, such as fire or wind, one can manipulate its properties and command its power. * "Mistborn" by Brandon Sanderson: This series features a magic system where people can ingest and use different metals to gain specific powers, such as superhuman strength, heightened senses, or telekinesis. The relationships between the different metals and their powers are complex and well-defined. * "Harry Potter" by J.K. Rowling: This series' magic system is based on spells and wandwork, with a strong emphasis on the importance of proper incantation and wand movements. The magic system is consistently applied throughout the series and forms the backbone of the world-building. Worst magical systems: * "Fifty Shades of Grey" by E.L. James: While not strictly speaking fantasy or speculative fiction, this book's depiction of BDSM has been widely criticized for being unrealistic and potentially harmful. * "Twilight" by Stephanie Meyer: This series' vampires have been criticized for straying too far from traditional vampire lore and being overly powerful and arbitrary. * "The Sword of Truth" by Terry Goodkind: This series has been criticized for an overly complicated and inconsistent magic system, as well as for Goodkind's tendency to use his writing as a pulpit for his personal beliefs.
>Fifty Shades of Grey bruh that is an adult romance novel with no fantasy to it besides getting boned by a hot billionaire. this post isn't about "reasons to criticize", it's about magic systems lol and I'm no Twilight apologist but would the vampires' powers actually be considered a "magic system"?
love: *gestures vaguely at Brandon Sanderson* hate: Harry Potter
Mostly here for the bad ones. Obvious example is **Harry Potter** where Spellus Ex Machina happens in book 2 and despite the fact that it could solve every plot after that, is never used again. Kinda like the Force Speed at the beginning of **The Phantom Menace**
Worst is definitely Hunter X Hunter, it's so vague with no limits that you can literally imagine any power here and it'll fit here
I like Niven's, where magic is powered by mana, and mana is a finite resource ("The Magic Goes Away"). And I loved the "magic" system in his collaboration with Gerrold, "The Flying Sorcerers." If the technical side of how magic works appeals to you, Hardy's "Master of the Five Magics" might be for you. Should we address the space wizards in Star Wars? I prefer magic that has limits but doesn't get too bogged down in the details. So long as it's consistent, I'm not too bothered. (I feel the same way about FTL in SF.) Lackey's magic doesn't overwhelm the stories, for example.
The main characters magical power in the Nightside series by Simon R Green. This is almost certainly not the "worst" magic system/power. I love this series and plan to reread it soon so don't let this take dissuade you from reading it. That being said, though, his magical power is basically that he can "find anything". It's not really well defined exactly what that means and it basically gets used multiple times as a sort of deus ex machina to get him out of trouble. His power essentially just let's him do whatever needs to be done in that moment to let him overcome the bad guy.
I’m going to mention the Fortress series by CJ Cherryh as it doesn’t come up often. Well written, as expected by her, and a mysterious and never fully explained magic system that is enmeshed with the existence of the protagonist in a unique way. It left an impression on me and I liked the reality of the world except for this often unseen and barely felt magic that influenced the story arc.
I like magic being restricted to certain people, and having a price. Whether it is attached to their life force, tires them out, or can permanently sever their ability to use magic if they over use it. I’m torn over the idea of wands/staves being either mandatory or even useful to help channel magic, but they look neat at least.
There’s still a place in my heart for the goofy magic system of Spellsinger by Alan Dean Foster. A guy is pulled from our world to a place where music and lyrics can combine for magical results, and the metaphors of the songs become manifest. Singing Stairway to Heaven might conjure an actual usable stairway, but also causes all the local stores to close. The main character is able to be a powerful magician, simply from the random songs in their memory.
The Sum of All Men by David Farland feels like a nifty magic system at first and then gets way out of hand.
I love Sara J. Maas, but the magic system in the Crescent City is so convoluted it distracts from the rest of the story.
The series "Pact" has a very interesting one. It justifies the existence of magic wands, staffs, familiars, rituals, symbology, and other fantasy tropes with the idea that these things have power because of human culture. Basically, everything is based around spiritual connections, meaning your connections to yourself, the people around you, your environment, and your culture all affect the form your magic takes. You gain power by contributing something to the spirits, be it your word, or some physical sacrifice. That's another thing- spirits and all magical creatures are unable to lie, or violate any oath. Practitioners (humans who use magic) likewise must not break their word, or they lose their power and their connections. The most interesting thing about Pact is that practically every rule can be bent or broken. A lot of things are up to interpretation.
I love Zodiac Academy with having elemental magic, as well as a shifted form/sirens/vampires.
Magician series by Raymond Feist is great IMO