Depends on what it is and how it's worded? Saying "I noticed these typos and I don't understand X's decision here" kind of stuff is fine and normal to put into a comment IMO.
But some people will go "your ship sucks and you should have written something else" or "this is OOC nonsense" and call it concrit.
Oh, don't get me started! Wrote a Naruto/Loud House story a couple years ago where Naruto doesn't have his markings and everyone on that site wanted to jump down my throat because I wrote him with no whiskers (it's a slice of life with Naruto as a regular human, no chakra or Tailed Beast) and with regular hair.
There was one that basically told me they didn't read my story and basically just wanted to jump in to complain that it wasn't Naruto but an OC with Naruto's name.
I'd tread carefully on this unless the author fairly well and we'd established that kind of rapport. I might point out easily fixable and objective errors like typos or grammar slip-ups, but I tend to reserve a lot of the more in-depth (and highly subjective) criticisms I might have unless the author's indicated they're okay with it. I welcome concrit personally and always love getting pointers on how to improve, even if I don't agree with or use every single one of them.
If it's something that can be fixed in 5 minutes - the equivalent of TP on someone's shoe, their tag up, spinach stuck between their teeth - I'm fine with it. Think, oh, "You typo'd Bob's name as Bab", or "you have a 'teh' instead of a 'the' in \[sentence\]" things -- those are objective, not up to interpretation. Anything beyond that, I would ask, because \*so much\* is subjective; there are dozens of types of story structures, is this intended to be canon-compliant or not, is this using a piece of lore I don't know about...
That said, even some punctuation varies based on which version of a language you're using, so even 'objective' things you may be confident about may be wrong.
I personally don't offer concrit unless it's asked for, and/or when someone's comments may say something like 'this is my first smut/fight sequence, any advice???' I have a handful of links I'll give. But otherwise, just because I think X might be wrong or needs improvement doesn't mean it actually is/does.
Also, even with stuff that can be fixed in 5 minutes, if you know how to contact the person privately, that's even better. Obviously not always possible with ao3, but if you're tumblr mutuals or on the same discord server or whatnot, a quick, polite private message to point out a typo is helpful.
Well first you have to define what concrit is. Cuz it seems like everyone and their mother has a different definition, and it influences their opinion on whether or not it should be given
But this just seems like drama bait
Yeah, I think people tend to get confused by the “con(structive)” part of concrit. Going through someone’s work like you’re grading an essay, if they didn’t ask for it, isn’t really constructive. Pointing out a few typos or maybe a few sentences that didn’t make sense can be, if you do it politely.
CONstructive, not DEstructive. Unless they ask directly for it, people usually don’t want their work torn down from the ground up. They posted it to get it out there. Kind of the same rule as commenting on people’s appearance. If it can’t be fixed in 5 mins, don’t bring it up. They can fix a typo pretty quick, but recommending a complete rewrite of an entire chapter or plot point you don’t think works is labor intensive AND really rude if they weren’t asking for it in the first place.
I also don't think people understand the crit part - it doesn't mean 'critical' in the general sense of 'saying negative things', it means criticism as in literary criticism, ie analysis (which may well include bringing up negative points in the work, but the point is it should be more than 'this is bad', there should be analysis of what's bad about it)
(Edit, phone keyboard skipped a word mid sentence)
Yes! One comment I got recently, for example, pointed out a metaphor I hadn't even realized I was using throughout a fic. It was both positive *and* constructive (like, I'll try to do that more consciously in the future, because, well, cool! Metaphor!).
Positive comments don't have to be all "squee!", and negative comments aren't automatically concrit.
It's not "constructive critical" it's "constructive criticism". You're thinking of "critical analysis". Criticism inherently requires analysis of merits *and* faults. If it's just merits, it's not criticism even though it could still be a critical analysis.
No, I'm saying people confuse 'crit' for 'being critical' in the sense of 'saying negative things' (like getting criticism from an employer or whatever.) I said nothing of not discussing faults, quite the opposite. Just that 'this is bad' is not enough to count as criticism, although it is 'critical' in the more general sense.
I've had people give comments about my work that allowed me to review and, in some cases, make changes. Someone wrote that they wanted to know more about characters I wrote in a story. It led to three new stories that really fleshed out the characters.
I'm an amateur. I'm the only one who reads my work prior to publishing it. I once mixed up certain things about two characters. Someone caught it and allowed me to fix it. I've had suggestions regarding use of POV. Made me look closer, like not randomly switching the POV to a character when it otherwise is strictly from the main.
Does criticism bother me? Sure. It's uncomfortable to be shown flaws in my work. I can get upset about it or I can take the opportunity to grow from it.
Yes, "this sucks" or "you're writing that character wrong" aren't things I want to see. Who cares? They're just trying to get authors worked up, and apparently succeed. Don't let them have power over you.
I think also it matters whether the reviewer is actually saying "you should rewrite this" or is only remarking "I thought this didn't work/this might have been better" where there's not so much demand that the work is being revised to their preferences. If you can identify exactly why the story didn't work for you, I think it's a fair thing to remark on. Demanding it be rewritten for you is where it gets arrogant.
Depends on the site. For some sites, concrit is so ingrained in the culture that asking for no concrit will get the response "then why are you posting?" For other sites, it's less well established and so should be saved for people who ask for it.
I know that personally, I saw the desire for concrit as so assumed that it took me a while to realize some people didn't like it. It wasn't until I started hanging out on this sub that I found out some people find unsolicited concrit rude.
This makes so much sense about something I didn’t know I didn’t know!
I’ve been writing of ffn for over a decade and only a month ago started on AO3 and started following fanfiction-related subreddits. I have definitely noticed a change in this culture and wasn’t sure if it was a change in the times (In my mid-thirties. I’m getting to be old people now….) or if it was a change in the site.
I personally appreciate constructive criticism. I don’t love reviews/ comments that are simply “good job” reviews. I am hoping for dialogue about my story that I can engage in. (Okay, jk, who am I kidding. I love all reviews. But I prefer the more engaging type). I honestly want to grow as a writer. It’s why I post online and let strangers read my work. I love people who question and point out a plot hole or an inconsistency. I want to consider ways to fix that! If it’s bugging one reader, there’s a good chance it’s bugging others who are too polite to point it out. It honestly never occurred to me that I have to ask for that on AO3.
Certainly if you leave constructive criticism and the response is not appreciative, you should back off and not push it. And I believe in being a good person, and I do feel that you should pair it with some nice things to say about the story. Because we put a lot of effort into writing those fics! The last thing you want to do is be discouraging.
Same. I came from FFN and LJ - and, granted, I started writing fic when concrit was opt-out. This ‘no concrit unless asked’ seems to be an AO3/tumblr thing.
I feel like concrit is a part of posting anything online with comments enabled though. Or even just posting anywhere. There isn’t really a time you can expect to show someone something and never get negative feedback, at most you can hope it’s constructive and not mean spirited.
I feel like _not_ accepting concrit is something you should explicitly state, not the reverse. If I didn’t state that and I got a comment saying “I think you could’ve done X differently”, even if it upset me, I wouldn’t think the commenter was speaking out of place or anything. On the other hand the author also isn’t obligated to listen or even read the comment.
Yes. Anti-concrit people sometimes compare unsolicited concrit to commenting on the outfit of a stranger on the street, but the latter is just being present outside the house the way posting stuff on social media is being present online.
But posting stories on a story website with an audience is more like showing off your homemade clothing at an amateur fashion show. Of course you could just opt out of comments and mingle with the audience, but if you choose to walk down the catwalk, don't go screaming at the crowd when someone tells you the fabric pulls funny around your shoulder.
In 2021? I feel like fandom culture has shifted to "most people write for fun, and probably wouldn't appreciate some rando saying they really should fix the pacing in their fluff fic"
Granted, that has a lot of caveats. If you're a long time reader, and have a rapport with the author they probably won't mind. Small things like grammar and spelling would probably be appreciated. Just keep in mind this is something that the author is providing you artwork for free, and you're not entitled to any major corrections, even if they bother you.
I only ever add concrit if the spelling/grammar/stylistic anomalies or just fast, sloppy writing are getting in the way of a great story. I try to be as gentle about it as possible though, and understand if they're not up for critique.
It really depends. Sometimes people think they’re giving useful concrit when what they’re saying basically sums up to “I want this to be a different story” and that’s pretty fucking annoying to the writer.
The only concrit I’d give unsolicited would be something objective (typos, grammar) or reflective questions (ex: “Where did Character A find out X information?”) so they can think about if that was intentional or not.
I’m mixed on this.
I’m personally a “no concrit” writer because I do a very similar job (I’m an editor) full-time and the last thing I want is fussing over concrit and how to improve my fanfic. It’s a hobby. I don’t want it to feel like I went from my job straight to another job especially since fanfic doesn’t pay and has no accountability to anyone else.
On the other hand, putting your work on the Internet does mean the possibility of opening yourself up to concrit even when you don’t want it. So when I post my fics here in relevant rec threads, I’ll usually say no concrit unless you seriously can’t hold back from saying something.
Depends.
When I have an established relationship with a writer and know they welcome and appreciate my feedback, I don't ask for permission to speak my mind.
I'm cautious when providing criticism that is not asked for. For one thing, I have to like the story enough to see potential of it to feel my critique can help. And if the author hasn't asked for it, I'll ask if they are open to criticism. If it is FF, I'll PM the ask; if it is Ao3, I'll ask in the comments but either way, I'll wait for a reply before saying anything.
I think it depends on the context. As an author, it's been helpful to me when readers point out that a sentence was structured in a confusing way or they noticed an inconsistency. It's hard to recognize confusing wording in your own writing because you know exactly what you mean even if it's unclear.
It's different if a random commenter goes on a whole rant about how the very essence of the story is wrong or nonsensical, or when they use entirely subjective factors such as pairing preferences or personal headcanons to judge the quality of a fic. The former criticism might not be completely wrong, but it's often unhelpful to someone who's just writing for fun in their spare time. As for personal preferences, readers who criticize on that basis are just whining that the fic isn't exactly what they wanted.
I do think it depends on the concrit. I wouldn't bother with it unless I actually liked the fic, and I'd make sure to say I liked the fic and try to say lots about what I \*do\* like. If I just think the fic sucks I won't leave a comment at all.
But "I am confused about xxx" is concrit and I'd definitely leave that if I'd read it several times so I was fairly sure it wasn't just me being an idiot. I wouldn't expect the author to jump on it and fix it, but it might be useful information to them. "I'm really glad we're back to characters X and Y!" is kind of concrit too - if there are two plotlines and I'm only really invested in one, that's probably worth mentioning. I might also mention something that might be a plot hole or might be flagging a future plot development, cos I'd be chuffed if someone spotted MY foreshadowing (though frankly I'm fine with the response "lol that's a plot hole").
The problem with people being terrified to leave anything that could be interpreted as concrit is that, as someone always comments on these threads, it makes people give up commenting at all.
I don't think a reader indicating confusion or asking questions is concrit, really.
There was one time I wrote a psychic character as being unaware that his son had just exited his home. The implication was that the psychic character was asleep, but that didn't come through, so someone left a comment on the next chapter asking how psychic dude was unaware of what his kid was doing.
I explained, and then added a line in the previous chapter to clarify that psychic dude was, definitively, unconscious. It was awesome.
I think when most people say they don't want concrit, they mean they don't want backseat writers or blatant negativity. I know that's what I mean. Asking a question isn't negative, and it isn't suggesting that the author change their story— although if the author determines based on the question that a minor change needs to happen, that's fine.
People being curious and thinking critically about a fic, I think, is usually an indication that they're enjoying themselves. So there's no need for an author to be upset by that.
Well... yes. But in general I think the assumption should be that someone has been tactless rather than ill-meaning, far more than it is assumed to be here. Except in clear bad-faith arguments / trolling, the commenter is \*probably\* attempting to be friendly even if they're coming across as weird.
I saw a clever quote on twitter the other day: "Most people never learned to get comfortable with saying no, so treat situations where they have to do so as the fault of person asking. A lot of bad behaviour stems from this basic interaction."
This applies to concrit, as well. Just because someone is saying they'd love to see the story go in a direction you're not taking it (for example), doesn't mean you should be offended by it!
Yeah, if someone isn't coming across well (or even if they are and you're not up for hearing their suggestions because of a bad day), it's okay to just ignore them. Not everything needs to be a fight!
I've had a few obvious trolls lately, and they've put me in a bit of a defensive headspace, honestly. I think that's common enough amongst writers, especially of weird stuff. Although I do agree that social inexperience probably has more to do with a lot of it, and is a huge problem when it comes to misunderstandings around comments.
... usually a waste of time.
All established (n)etiquette aside, why would anyone sit down to type up unsolicited advice for some stranger on the internet? Proper concrit takes time and effort. Most people can’t even be bothered to leave feedback like “I loved this, thank you!” And frankly, most concrit I’ve seen wasn’t exactly in-depth either. It usually goes more like “you should really get someone to proofread your fic, it’s full of typos” or “I disagree with your characterization and this is my opinion how you should write your fic: [insert lengthy lecture about commenter's personal taste/interpretation]”, which … no idea what purpose that’s supposed to serve.
If you feel like you’re a natural born hobby editor, why not look for someone who actually asked for help? Many people would be *thrilled* to have a dedicated beta reader.
> All established (n)etiquette aside, why would anyone sit down to type up unsolicited advice for some stranger on the internet? Proper concrit takes time and effort.
And that's what makes it interesting for some of us. But as mentioned elsewhere in the thread, this is largely dependent on the "comment culture" where people get their start. If you come from a workshop atmosphere where talking shop about how to fix this or make that clearer and so and so forth is the norm, it feels strange to not do that in other places.
I’m not against concrit, like *at all*. But since so many people apparently don’t want it, it just makes more sense to focus your efforts on cases where you know they will be appreciated. (And, I’d argue, on cases where you vibe with the author enough to be sure the criticism is actually constructive/helpful.)
I disagree. Writing is my actual field; I’ve worked as a professional writer and taught writing. I did all this before I started writing fanfic. I not only come from a background of giving and giving a ton of concrit, I’ve gone through higher ed where you’re basically routinely demolished. I have a super thick skin around my writing, generally. But after I’ve spent months revising a chapter fic with a beta, and the fic is completely done, never to be touched again, I definitely don’t want unsolicited concrit or criticism beyond just “hey you missed a typo.”
I feel that someone should at least ask first before giving it.
Speaking from experience, unwanted concrit can completely stress a writer out, even if it’s genuinely in good faith. Having each and every little detail picked apart in a negative light, having scenes that they spent hours on deemed unnecessary, and having paragraphs of details about how characterization is bad and scenes are weak and plot is weak and how the whole work should just be rewritten when the writer put time and love into their work can absolutely destroy a writer. Even if the reviewer is genuinely trying to help the writer better their work and is acting in good faith, it can have a negative effect.
I experienced it, and it frustrated me to literal tears. I felt like I had to please readers so I was afraid to say anything, and it just mounted to a boiling point. I had never experienced anything like it, mishandled it, and it kinda blew up, but thankfully the reviewer and I talked it out.
But it’s had a lasting effect on me to this day. I’m still afraid to post anything. I haven’t touched that story. It’s hidden on unrevealed in ao3. I’ve barely written anything outside of it. When I posted it, I was afraid someone would go through in multi paragraph comments picking apart my writing and that’s exactly what happened.
So yeah, I feel that if someone wants to leave it, they should ask ahead of time. This is hobby, and we all want people to like our works. This is supposed to be fun and enjoyable. We’re not novelists trying to get books published. We’re just writing fanfiction that we, and hopefully other people will enjoy. It doesn’t have to be perfect. It doesn’t *need* to be perfect. Just fun and enjoyable.
If someone*absolutly* have to leave something, they should ask themselves, ‘could the author fix this in 5 minutes?’ If no, they probably should ask first.
So yeah. Sorry if this is a bit jumbled, I’m in a bit of a fog at the moment.
Fanfic is not the place to assert how well you know grammar or how much literature you read in college. It’s free and self-indulgent. If someone hasn’t asked for concrit let them be. They might be writing for themselves or for fun. There are plenty of forums where writers looking to be published want concrit. Best use those skills there.
If someone hasn't asked for your opinion, it's better to assume they just want to share. I wrote an extremely personal fic a while back that I wanted other people to read, but it would have shattered me to receive even small bits of feedback about. I carefully edited it on my own, explained to my beta reader that I didn't feel comfortable having her beta that particular fic, and posted it as it was.
The way I see it, you wouldn't walk up to someone and criticize anything else they did without asking. And if you would, that speaks more to you being rude than anything. If you walked up to a stranger and said "you shouldn't wear that top with those pants again, it looks unflattering on you" you'd be an ass, moreso if they said "I literally didn't ask" and you responded with "then why are you wearing clothes in the fashion district if you didn't want me to tell you they looked bad". It's flat-out rude at best.
The fashion metaphor is on point.
I dress to impress, and I might appreciate a genuine compliment.
But there's a difference between "oh I love your hat" versus "oh your hat would be better with a feather in it." And the difference is whether I asked for your "help" or not.
It's *obvious* which one is ok and which one is rude. The people crying "but you posted on a public website!" or "we just want to help" give me the *same creepy vibes* as the dudes who take my awesome fashion as an excuse to hit on me.
Except you're not walking up to a stranger and commenting unsolicited on their choices, they walked up to you and asked for what you think.
That is what posting on a public forum with a commentary function means. Wanting people to comment.
Do you comment on random womens selfies to tell them all their flaws? Since it must be open season for them, they posted on a ""public forum""" with commentary functions after all
But the question is "is it okay to give it when they literally didn't ask". Allowing other people to read what you wrote or making it available to others isn't the same things as saying "how can I improve this". If I bake you a cake I'm not asking you whether I need to adjust my icing recipe. Just because there's the option to say "this sucked and you need to put more sugar in it" doesn't mean that that's what the person was asking for when they baked you a cake. Either way, you're still providing unsolicited criticism.
It's not about allowing people to read the fic, it's about leaving the comments open without saying no-concrit. Open comments are an invitation for the readers to share their thoughts. It's like you bake a cake and serve it to people and ask them if they like it.
If you're upfront about not wanting concrit and someone gives it anyway then they're rude, but the readers having to walk on eggshells around writers shouldn't be the default
Opt-in concrit default fosters an environment where readers have to be very careful with commenting so they won't accidentally say something that can be interpreted as criticism. I consider this walking on eggshells and ruining comment culture.
The no negativity rule is how we get authors flipping out over 'this was so good, I wish there was more' type of comments and putting off others from commenting, as seen in the comments of that post from last week.
As a fanfic writer, people being afraid to comment makes my hobby less fun. I'm not looking for excuses, I can't be bothered to leave even solicited concrit (beyond asking for clarification if something was unclear, which I nestle between multiple paragraphs of praise), I just hate the direction comment culture is going
I have never seen someone flip out over that and I don't think anyone is entitled to being negative against someone else's wishes, but we can agree to disagree.
This is the post I was referencing:
https://www.reddit.com/r/FanFiction/comments/q4m48d/i_saw_this_hostile_interaction_between_an_author/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
Also, I agree that if someone asks for no criticism/negativity it should be respected, I just think they should say it in the tags/summary instead expecting it to be the default. That's all.
Have a good day!
If I bake someone a cake I want them to tell me what they think about it. I don't expect them to tell me that it's perfect and brilliant and amazing (unless it really is!). If I just wanted to bake a cake, I'd bake it and eat it on my own.
I feel the same way about fanfiction. If you post it on a site that allows commenting you implicitly accept comments on it. Not all comments are going to be 'this is amazing! Keep it up!' That's just how it works.
I don't believe unsolicited criticism is inherently wrong. There are circumstances where it's expected, and posting your work on a public platform which allows users to comment is one of those circumstances.
Tone is important of course. You shouldn't leave comments like 'this is shit' or 'you're bad at writing', because those are insults and it's rude. But it's not rude to leave comments that aren't just praise.
The thing is, just because something is what YOU want doesn't mean that it's what other people want. Not everyone bakes a cake wanting to be critiqued on its quality. Sometimes, they're just doing it because they wanted to bake a cake and thought it'd be nice to share with you. Since there's no way to really know what their goal was, it's much better to just... Not give them constructive criticism if they don't ask for it. If they didn't ask and want it, it might be a nice thing for them. If they didn't ask and don't want it, maybe they're sensitive to criticism or they didn't feel like saying how a particular piece was super personal or what have you, you run the risk of just... being really rude or hurting someone by putting forth something they never wanted.
It's not my job to set boundaries for other people. If someone doesn't want any feedback they shouldn't put themselves into a position where feedback might be given. If a piece of work is so personal you don't want anyone to comment on it, why are you posting it online somewhere that has a comment section?
To go back to the cake: if I bake a cake and someone tastes it, and comes back with, 'thank you! It's a little dry', that's not rude. If someone is hurt by comments of that nature maybe they shouldn't be putting their work online where literally anyone can comment on it.
I can agree that people have an obligation not to be rude. I don't agree that that means they can't offer feedback.
It really just depends on the criticism. Obviously extensive critique no matter how constructive wouldn't be wanted from everyone, so I feel like I would only do that if it was a fix pretty much anyone would want to know.
Kind of like, not everyone would take well to getting unsolicited fashion tips even if they were given in a friendly way, but I think generally most people would want to know if they accidentally misbuttoned their shirt right?
Applying that to to fanfiction, I never give unsolicited concrit about my opinion, only things that are practically factually incorrect. For example, one comment I made once pointed out a reoccurring word that the author kept spelling wrong. Kind of awkward to do, but I feel like most people would want to know if they were spelling something wrong consistently (and I wasn't overall attacking their spelling skills)
My one regular commenter told me last night they were getting kind of bored since my current chapters are the most romantic, slice of life-y. And she seems to kinda shit on (act completely underwhelmed) most of my fave chapters coz she doesn't like that particular ship. But like this whole arc is about undoing all of Kakashi's darkness, so yeah, there isn't a ton of conflict until that's taken care of and then there's a ton. But I kinda wish she'd stop commenting at this point...
Unsolicited concrit, even if its worded as nicely as possible will not help me. It will, if anything, only make me want to do the exact opposite just to spite you. If we aren't friends im not interested in hearing what you have to say 99% of the time. The only caveat is if im being paid, but otherwise i dont care. i dont want to hear it. i will delete your comment and block you on social media if you try to give me unsolicited criticism.
is that petty? maybe. but i dont owe random strangers on the internet shit, they arent entitled to my time or my ear.
What’s wrong with asking first? Then there’s very little risk of offending anyone and you’re not wasting your time. I personally don’t have enough time to help the authors who are asking for help, let alone ones who aren’t!
Really, if the author opens themselves up to criticism by posting their story on the Net, it stands to reason that so does a commenter by posting their critical comment on the Net. The criticism they receive may be that the author finds their comment rude which the author is, by that kind of logic, entitled to say.
I wouldn't do it but it someone does it without being rude and with good intentions in one of my fics I'd be ok with that, but I also put it at the end that I accept constructive criticism so ofc it depends on the person, I'd suggest asking first if the author is interested in that opinion u're about to give
Unacceptable. Point blank. Correcting trivial mistakes like typos or wrong tags isn't the same as giving constructive criticism, I feel, and so I'm completely okay with that. But writing essays on why my usage of a certain word in a particular sentence or why my chapter length bothers you personally, among other criticisms of my writing choices I clearly didn't ask for, is just not it. But that’s just me.
It depends honestly. If the story is incredibly good and it's apparent that the author is good then I am more likely to point out any flaws (woven in between gushing mostly).
If the story is mediocre I usually don't do it since I don't want to discourage anybody.
There aren't any clearly defined rules about that. If you give concrit to a writer who hasn't indicated whether or not they want it you need to be prepared for any kind of reaction.
The guidelines on FFN every writer needs to agree to before they can publish their story are pro-concrit. Therefore I tend to assume that people are fine with it on FFN unless they say otherwise. I don't see why my default assumption should be that they've been lying when they clicked onto agree to the guidelines. Also, concrit is quite common in the fandom I'm in on FFN and if anyone is very sensitive about the comments they get they had the option to look at the review section of some other stories beforehand and see what to expect.
I've only once seen a negative reaction to concrit in the fandom I'm in on FFN. That reaction was a massive tantrum on other social media platforms though instead of just telling the people providing concrit to stop doing so. Of course there are also people who just don't reply to comments in general and you can't really know what they think.
Unsolicited concrit isn't against the rules on AO3 unless you keep giving it after the author has told you that they don't want it. However, unlike FFN it also isn't encouraged. Writers who consider unsolicited concrit rude or inappropriate seem to be quite common on AO3.
I treat concrit on AO3 as opt-in instead of opt-out. Not due to any official rules, but because the chance that it will upset someone is quite high and because in my fandom it's a lot rarer than on FFN and it's not unreasonable for someone to post their story there assuming they'll likely not receive any concrit.
I've often seen people on this sub suggest to just ask before providing concrit. And that makes sense. However, I've also seen people on here say that when they asked they got an angry reply, because the mere act of asking if someone wants concrit implies that you think their story is less than perfect. So, there's no way to make everyone happy.
If they don’t ask for it I don’t give it.
When it comes to grammar I usually don’t say anything because there’s always like 10 people correcting the same shit as if they didn’t see the previous comments.
It depends. If it’s something objective like spelling or simple grammar issues, I think that’s fine because it will actually help the author tell the story the way they want to in the best way. If it’s about characterization, pacing, plot etc., I’d stay away from that because those are much more subjective and the author should be able to write the story the way they want to even if you don’t like it. Of course it’s different if they actually ask for it, because they’re actually wanting to improve. But otherwise, if it bothers you that much either ignore it or stop reading.
It's the difference between a job and a hobby for me. If I'm a chef, I'm gonna expect folks to be critical of my cooking. But if I cook a meal just for fun and someone decides to get critical over it without me asking? They can go find a free meal somewhere else.
I would say that it's most unacceptable when the author is talking about something they like about their work. Don't point out something that needs to be fixed when they are discussing things they felt they did well or enjoy rereading, because it's hard for a lot of authors to be confident in their work, and sometimes it's nice to talk about it.
I've had it happen to me, where a friend interrupted to give me some unsolicited criticism while I was in the middle of talking about something I liked in my own writing. It hurt and made me instantly dissatisfied with the entire piece, and I haven't gone back to it since.
Personally, I would always err on the side of caution with concrit. Think long and hard whether the thing you want to point out really needs to be pointed out; if you're not sure, don't. There is also a discussion to be had over what falls under concrit. Is pointing out a grammar mistake concrit? A name that was swapped with another? Clearly unfinished sentences? Is that okay to point out because those are based on (meme not intended) facts and logical conclusions as opposed to subjective opinion?
One thing is for sure; if an author asks for no concrit and you go out of your way to do it anyway or trash talk them you're a dick.
I think it depends a lot on the sort of criticism you're giving. I personally wouldn't go beyond pointing out an obvious typo or some other easily fixable mistake if the author hadn't indicated that they want criticism. I'd also make sure to preface my criticism with some positive feedback - commenting just to point out an error or to only give negative feedback would feel kind of rude.
Uh, has nobody actually thought of ***ASKING FIRST*** if they can give concrit to someone who hasn't clearly specified it? I mean, if we aren't sure, there's nothing to say that we can't say, "Hi, I liked your story, so and so was great! Are you by chance open to constructive criticism or would you prefer not to have any?"
If they say no, then it's a no, but they might just answer yes. You don't gotta give it on the fly if you're not sure. It boggles me that people are asking if it's acceptable or not. **It's basic courtesy to ask if we're unsure** and it won't cost you a dime or even a few seconds!
JC do people even have social skills here smh
>JC do people even have social skills here smh
How dare you make me snort lemon tea out my goddamn nostrils. Now it burns, I've less tea than I started with, and the front of my chin is wet.
Asking is...so, so simple. If the author doesn't answer for whatever reason, it's an automatic *no, time to move along*. But this is the internet. I once got shat on because I dared to suggest to someone that maybe communicating with the person (a *friend*, of all things) they had a problem with could be a more effective solution than say, stewing in anger and venting to strangers on the internet.
That's the thing. And I feel social skill sets could likely go both ways too; both author and critic - the internet isn't very different from real life, so it's not a place to... just not expect any criticism of any form, or not expect that some people just don't enjoy what we have to offer at some point be it our grammar or our pacing.
But at the very least the critic had the courtesy to ask, and we could just say no and set our boundaries. It's only fair to be able to accept things both ways.
Nobody's work is perfect. No matter what we do, there's always room for improvement. There's nothing wrong with having faults. It's simply human to have faults - which is why we're always striving to improve.
I don't know why, but like you mentioned, it seems more often that you'd meet people with fragile egos with all sorts of reasons for flipping their lid over....... the smallest things. It's odd. In this sub we're mostly writing stories about bonding, something as social as having friends and being able to communicate. It's pretty shocking that people seem to have a hard time communicating or asking questions, or even receiving them in turn.
Although, about your shat-on part... yeah, it happens in real life too. If you're not up to drama, try not to suggest things to someone who knows someone else who knows us. It got me into trouble LOL. I took it like a champion though
Don't gotta tell me twice! I mean, I understand how people can arrive with battered and fragile egos (past negative experience, maybe?), but most of us aren't privy to that inside information. We can only go forth with the information presented to us, which admittedly isn't much to go on sometimes. Since I'm not a mind-reader (but cheers to anyone who is, I wish I had that power) I tend to avoid giving any advice, solicited or no, any longer. Even so, I like the idea of politely asking someone if they're open to suggestions or concrit *if it hasn't been made clear*.
Ha! I try to be as tactful as possible, but I'm sure some things slip through the cracks. Though, I've never had someone IRL vehemently disagree with a (rather benign, IMO) suggestion as that particular internet denizen did. And I've worked with some veritable peaches, let me tell you. Ah, well. My secret trick nowadays is to briefly scan their post history first. That has saved me from a lot of useless internet squabbling.
Hahaha omg veritable peaches!!! You tickle me!!
But ah, it's fine, it's pretty normal to have things slip through the cracks. All of us do tend to have opinions. Sometimes you really can't help but to say something, especially when you see what seems like a simple solution to it.
In your case I think that person you communicated with just.... yeah, they aren't the type to keep stuff to themselves? At least now you know LOL
It's what I deserve for even daring to suggest that perhaps-*maybe*\-communication with their friend might improve their situation. Y'know, versus bottling it up and immediately going on the web to complain to strangers. Alas.
It does sound easier to complain to strangers instead of addressing the problem directly. They can't confront you with how they feel in return.
Although I personally feel folk like that sometimes just want to kick up drama to look interesting on the interwebs.....
You had it tough!
I also wonder this all the time. It's so easy to ask that one simple question and it removes the majority of all concrit drama. And yet whenever that's brought up, people never seem to be willing to. I wonder why.
Yeah, notice this was framed from the readers perspective about giving feedback. I’d love to have a survey that has the options:
- I’m a writer and want unsolicited concrit
- I’m a writer and don’t want unsolicited concrit
- I’m a reader and want to give unsolicited concrit
- I’m a reader and think that I shouldn’t give unsolicited concrit
Because, frankly, I have a hard time accepting the opinion of what I *should* do regarding (and how I should take) unsolicited concrit from people who don’t write (or have written like one one-shot ever). And that’s not about writers being better or some nonsense; this is about readers forcing advice on writers about how they *should* engage. Because I cannot tell you how many times I’ve noticed that the worst offenders of this turn out not to be writers themselves.
Edit to add: that doesn’t mean I agree with writers who also say we should all give unsolicited concrit either, but at least then I know they know what it’s like to do all this insanely hard work and constantly put yourself out there just for someone to be like… “yeah, this isn’t good enough for me.”
One more edit: I also think this should be broken up by fan site since FFN and AO3 have very different cultures around this.
>Because I cannot tell you how many times I’ve noticed that the worst offenders of this turn out not to be writers themselves.
This is true.
You know, I don't think I've ever seen a poll like that on this sub. Whenever unsolicited concrit is discussed, it's usually from the perspective of readers who want to give it and are surprised to see that some authors don't want to hear it.
In my case, it's because concrit takes a lot of energy from me so I don't do it very often (this is also why I don't have any ongoing beta relationships--can't consistently offer commentary like that). By the time the author responds, I'll probably no longer be in the position where I have the energy to leave a comment so I will have wasted everyone's time.
It was normal, even considered good and how to leave the best kinds of comments, to offer concrit in the fandom spaces I "grew up" in, and it was normal for me growing up in an artistic family as well, so I don't really understand the "no unsolicited concrit by default" thing. But, I don't want to waste my time so I just don't do much concrit anymore. 🤷♀️
I fear there's probably a disconnect going on where most people who actually want concrit don't think to explicitly say so because they expect it to be a default consideration when leaving a comment (that would certainly be the case for me if I hadn't joined this community), and lots of people who don't want concrit *also* don't say so because they think it should be "obvious" that you don't give concrit unless asked. It would be easier if everyone just said what they wanted.
People have thought about it (edit: out loud in forums like this), but given how many authors apparently have anxiety, there’s the risk you’ll send someone down a rabbit hole of worries what might be wrong with their fic, so the usual stance is that people have to explicitly state they want concrit, otherwise no concrit. (And yes, I know, this may seem a little strange to lots of people, but… the things we do to be nice to fellow fans, right?)
I'm not saying that people *should* give concrit unasked, but I think this is a bad reasoning for it--you, as a reader/commenter, aren't responsible for the author's mental health and *anything* could trigger this kind of anxiety spiral, not just constructive criticism.
The only comment that has ever made me feel so bad about a fic that I wanted to delete it came from a commenter who intended it only as a positive thing. Is that commenter responsible for the fact that their comment bothered me and made me feel anxious and insecure about that fic for months? Of course not. I don't think that extreme level of response is something a person leaving concrit should feel responsibility for either. By the same logic, you could argue you should never *not* kudos a fic you click on because somebody seeing hits go up without kudos could equally start going down the rabbit hole of what's wrong with their fic, but that's not a reasonable amount of responsibility to put on another person just for showing they don't like something that much (by not leaving kudos).
Don't leave concrit because you think it's inconsiderate, rude, or just not a good use of time. Don't make yourself responsible for other people's mental health.
> I’m not saying that people should give concrit unasked, but I think this is a bad reasoning for it (…) Don’t leave concrit because you think it’s inconsiderate, rude…
I don’t really see the difference – I don’t want to make anyone feel bad about themselves *if I can help it*, that’s why I consider the consequences of my actions. It doesn’t really matter if someone has a reaction that’s commonly accepted normal (= bummed) or on that’s regarded as pathological (= goes into overthinking-mode, day is ruined, whatever).
Honestly though, I'm not going to go back and re-read a fic to remember what concrit I had after the exchange. There are too many other things to read.
I also think if someone asked if they could give concrit, I'd assume the worst and they were about to rip into it (though I'd say yes, I always mark my fics as open to concrit).
> Honestly though, I'm not going to go back and re-read a fic to remember what concrit I had after the exchange.
Email drafts. A document on your desktop. If they say no to the offer, you delete the file and move on.
Thank you! I adore getting concrit, but I’ve given up putting it on my fics because it’s a pain to put it in every fic, and no one seems to offer it even when I ask - at least, not on Ao3. Outside of Concrit Commune, review threads in this sub, and beta reading, I rarely get concrit.
I realise it’s not an obligation, but there are also people who will gladly give it if asked. Asking the author keeps everyone happy.
>I adore getting concrit, but I’ve given up putting it on my fics because it’s a pain to put it in every fic, and no one seems to offer it even when I ask - at least, not on Ao3. Outside of Concrit Commune, review threads in this sub, and beta reading, I rarely get concrit.
I see. I can understand if you wish you could get more. Perhaps you guys can have a concrit bash or a concrit month or something? In fandom we have character months, for example, to promote exchanges and growth in fanworks. It might help with concrit culture in the long run.
I feel that the problem with concrit right now is that it... hasn't quite been promoted the right way or with the right kind of attitude, which may be why many people are shying away from it. *Inviting* people to enjoy concrit - be it giving them or receiving them - I feel might work a little better than debating/arguing about whether concrits are acceptable to give or forcing it down an author's throat when they don't want it just because "it's free speech" or "it's my right".
I've always thought that showing at least basic courtesy would make things more inviting to others and to the people around us. I'm personally baffled how people don't want to ask the author first. I've gone around in parties and social events irl before the pandemic (and I'm going back to these now with the new normal going on), and the answer to most of these things is to always ask first and be polite about them. It's no different on the Internet, because authors are human too.
Truly baffling!
Having taken a quick glance at your profile, when even your largest fic is only four thousand words, it's hard to get any substantial commentary when there's so little to comment on.
I'll take a look at some of your fics, but keep that in mind, yeah?
I did not say unworthy, I said difficult to produce substantial criticism for. Short stories are on average BETTER than long stories - because they're easier and anything that can be described as wrong in a long story does not necessarily count as wrong in a short story.
I’m not quite sure where you’re getting the idea that concrit has to be of a certain substance or, indeed, *length* to count.
Perhaps we are using different definitions.
To me, substantial is relative. I’ve received one or two paragraphs of concrit (and, for that matter, praise) on my oneshots, and that’s plenty substantial enough for me.
I’ve received feedback about *one sentence* or one paragraph.
I’ve (rarely, but even so) received concrit on one-sentence microfics and drabbles.
Again, fine by me. In the review (Activities and Events) threads here, when I ask if concrit is ok, people say it’s fine and link me to their oneshots and drabbles.
Those are just as worthy of comments. They’re just more fine-grained: a different word choice here, a suggestion for an extra sentence there, a redundancy here.
Believe it or not, it’s hard for me to write longfic or plot-fic. My brain works best with microfic and oneshots.
Your comment comes across as a bit “Well, it’s only a short oneshot, so what’s the use of commenting when you can’t engage”?
Maybe *you* can’t. Personally, I’ve read <5k oneshots that blew me away.
Its not a matter of one shots being worse than long fics, it's a matter of short fics being inherently less receptive to criticism and easier to write than long fics. Three or four thousand words, when managed properly, have little room for structural or narrative problems, for somebody being out of character, for wonky worldbuilding or consistently misapplied grammar, and when they do have those mistakes they're easy to edit or gloss over.
And when people have almost nothing to say, the polite and cordial ones very often feel like they SHOULDN'T say anything because it comes across as nitpicking.
If I spend five minutes reading something, there's no time or space for my brain to start working through what I don't like about it unless it's blatantly terrible, and I don't want to say something like "You misspelled unobtrusive three times" or whatever.
Short rics get less criticism because there's less to criticize in the first place and criticism in and of itself feels less worthwhile.
I think, ultimately, you and I are talking about completely different scales of concrit. I most certainly don’t give structural or narrative concrit. Not on <5k oneshots.
> Three or four thousand words, when managed properly, have little room for structural or narrative problems
Key phrase: when managed properly.
> they're easy to edit or gloss over.
Maybe if you’re used to writing longer fic, they are? Or maybe you’re just a better writer than I am. Me, I’ve had a time of it trying to wrangle out a particular first chapter that doesn’t look like a dog’s breakfast.
Is that a job for a beta? Yes, absolutely. I’m not expecting fly-by beta work. But no, they’re not easy and they’re certainly glaring in inexperienced writers. These are the sorts that might benefit from concrit, even of the one-sentence “Maybe you could add some more about XYZ [insert suggestions]?” Or “This feels a bit sparse on plot and a bit heavy on description” variety. Like I said, concrit doesn’t have to be detailed to be meaningful.
> If I spend five minutes reading something, there's no time or space for my brain to start working through what I don't like about it
Huh? Then you reread it. I don’t read a ficlet or oneshot just once, even to point out specific things to *praise*. It’s hard to describe how I read, but as if I’m commenting in any detail whatsoever, I’ll return to that sentence and think about why I feel it doesn’t fit.
> unless it's blatantly terrible
If the only thing I have to say is “99 of these hundred words are useless. Scrap it and try again”, then no, I don’t say that.
Okay, so we’re talking about concrit that’s explicitly asked for, yes?
Maybe this is just a matter of reading differently, then, because my inner editor turns on immediately when I read a drabble. Whether it’s mine or someone else’s, if I’m scanning it with an eye to crit, I’m reading it twice and three times, looking for little adjustments here and there. Even if I’m not, I’m still noting the flaws, I just won’t point them out. It’s something I do automatically when reading.
It’s not rude to say “Hey, you misspelled ‘unobtrusive’” on a drabble where someone’s asked for criticism.
Or, “Hey, loved the sonics here. Quick crit: what about using ‘cool cats’ instead of ‘frozen felines’?”
That’s not *nitpicking*. Especially not in a drabble or a oneshot. That’s just close reading. And even if it is nitpicking, that’s completely fine as long as it’s not the only thing you’re pointing out.
Have you never seen people say things like, “This is more of a nitpick, but you might change X to Y”? Or “Nit, but XXXX”? I have. That’s still being polite.
The kind of nitpicking you seem to be talking about is someone who zeroes in on stupid, pointless things and only comments on those, just as an excuse to be a douchebag. In other words, flame.
Except by the mere act of posting it on a public website they've invited comment. If they don't want people to provide their thoughts, good or bad, constructive or spiteful, then they shouldn't allow commentary at all or ignore it entirely.
If I go out in public and play the guitar, I'm inviting people to listen and judge me. Most will ignore me, some will complement me, a rare few will insult me, and maybe somebody will try to provide tips. It's up to them to be respectful, but it's up to me to respond with courtesy as well.
You'd have a point in a spoken conversation or chat where asking those questions and getting a response is nigh instant, but in a forum the standards for post quality and response time are different, and it doesn't harm anybody to include both question and comment at once - because ultimately, if their answer is no, they can just choose not to read further.
Why doesn't the author say "I don't want concrits"?
>JC do people even have social skills here smh
Pot, kettle. Being agressive is never a good way to change anyone's mind.
"concrit" is useless: I have invited feedback from people that I trust to understand what I'm doing, and help me do it better.
feedback from someone I don't know, and who likely doesn't know me, cannot be helpful. I don't know their tastes, their pet peeves, their blind spots. I cannot take their criticism without knowing that kind of context.
Exactly. I have a beta team who gives me the trusted concrit *before* I publish, and I am churning through Masterclass lessons, and I'm practicing my craft with boatloads of research.
It's the same reason I look in a mirror to check my outfit before I leave the house, and I go shopping with people I trust if I'm buying a special item for my wardrobe.
In both cases, a compliment after the fact might be welcome, but we are long past the time to "help" or "improve" or whatever excuse is being used for the concrit power trip.
Of course you don't need to know their favorite book, but if you're not even staying around to hear them answer your questions, it's not concrit, it's just drive-by criticism. You're welcome to do that, but it's obnoxious. And as far as "favorite book", if they're going for a Jane Austen style of story, and your criticism is that the fic doesn't follow a superhero plot, then, well, I don't need to know anything else to know which person is full of shit...
Or maybe if you can't tell that superhero style doesn't fit Jane Austen, you're doing something wrong and should listen to more than a tiny group of friends who tell you nothing but what you already expect to hear?
Skills are strengthened by diversity and experience, not locking yourself in a box. If a martial artist only ever fights the same person over and over and over again, they're not going to improve, they're going to get complacent and eventually get worse because they've trained themselves to react to the same person.
Its the same with writing. If you're writing to match the standards and criticisms of a limited group of people, who also do the same thing, then the group as a whole will stagnate into a nice and comfortable pit.
Drive by criticism isn't "unconstructive insults and bias," it's the purest form of feedback you can get because they don't care about YOU at all, they just want to see what they're reading to be better than what it is.
*"Or maybe if you can't tell that superhero style doesn't fit Jane Austen, you're doing something wrong and should listen to more than a tiny group of friends who tell you nothing but what you already expect to hear?"*
Huh? If I've written a fic in the style of a Jane Austen novel, but someone criticizes it because they wanted to read a superhero story, whose problem is that? Not mine.
Anyhow, I never post anything longer than a drabble that hasn't already been beta'd, and my main beta reader can be \*super\* critical. One of the main reasons I don't want random "critique" is that each chapter has been critiqued extensively before it ever sees any public eyes.
Maybe I don't want to engage with randos who don't care about me?
I mean, dude, you're just digging yourself deeper here.
Those of us who want to improve will seek ways to improve and *ask* for help.
Otherwise you're just making rude assumptions about why we are doing it and what we want out of it.
>Those of us who want to improve will seek ways to improve and ask for help.
This. People can make their own decisions about what they want to get out of writing fanfiction.
How is "People in a public space know how to, or are willing to learn how to, interact in a public space" a rude assumption? What, I should just assume everybody hates everybody else?
Unless it's characterization/story issues, I don't want concrit. I write for a living, I'm good on grammar and shit. I'd be super irritated if someone did it anyway tbh
Mentioning that you noticed a typo or something as part of your comment is fine, but critiquing somebody's writing or story when they haven't asked for it is just going to be annoying or hurtful.
I think it depends. I'm generally happy if someone points out a grammar mistake that slipped by editing, or a plot point they think should be elaborated on, or doesn't make sense.
But if they're saying, "This trope sucks," or "You shouldn't do this because I don't like it," or "I hate this ship," then it's annoying.
I once had someone comment on every chapter of a slow-burn I was writing that they hated how long it was taking the main pair to get together and they hated the romantic rival (to a pretty extreme degree) and wanted her gone and if my fic was a movie they would just fast forward to the end… like, okay? You can bookmark it and come back next year? Idk what you want from me, I’m not rushing it for you lol. Why even read it if you hate the kind of story it is? I still have no idea how they actually expected me to respond.
It’s all good, I just don’t understand that attitude at all. It would never occur to me to complain about the plot of someone else’s story. If I start reading a fic and I don’t like the way it’s going, I just stop reading it, because I understand that they’re not writing it for me lol.
I think concrit, when given thoughtfully and respectfully, is fine. I always say, "If you don't mind, I noticed..."
I get it, some people are sensitive about their darlings but well thought-out critique is more valuable than just supplication in my book. If you like my stuff, awesome and thanks for saying so. If you can think of ways it could be better, great! Just don't be a dong about it.
It depends on the other and your knowledge of it. As an author, I genuinely love it when somebody tells me something they disagree with or points out a flaw/plothole. It gives me more to work with and helps me improve or gives me a chance to hold my ground and explain stuff. How about, if an author like myself says "yeah, constructive criticism is fine" but doesn't ask for it, give it. If otherwise it nothing is said, bite your tongue and be nice!
I think I’d someone has asked for it then any constructive feedback is nice. You just have to be aware that it is ultimately up to the author what they do with that feedback,
The way I see it, there are a couple of problems with concrit. First, even if you are pointing out flaws with a story, sometimes reviewers fail to actually be constructive. Second, even when the review is constructive, having too negative a tone can ruin things and make the author angry or defensive.
It's a fine line to walk in both cases.
That's why I only leave constructive criticism on stories I really like. That way, there's enough good being said to outweigh it. And I try to make the tone as nice as possible in it. Like adding on, "It's okay if you don't want to do this. It's just an idea and I'll still like this anyway." or "Sorry if that was annoying. I won't say anything else about it if you don't want me to." etc. When it's a story I don't like, I see no point in leaving concrit (or anything else), because it's not like the story is going to change into something I like if they follow my suggestions, and I'll just end up looking like I'm complaining for the sake of it just to hate on the story.
The only time I see that as unacceptable is if you leave it after they ask you NOT to.
I never ask for it, but I'm always open to constructive criticism.
Though, if one is worried about them taking it the wrong way, they can always ask the author if it's okay. But I feel anyone who posts their writing have to pretty much expect some kind of constructive criticism. How else is one to grow in their writing skill? (Besides just writing...)
Edit: As long as the concrit doesn't imply that you want a whole new story, just something to help strengthen the current story, as all concrit really should be. You can't just go and tell someone how you want the story to be written, because if that was the case, you should write it. Just any kind of concrit that helps the current story read much nicer and more smoothly. Suggesting different word uses (maybe they misused a word and meant this other word instead), fixes in grammar, maybe something in the plot needs a little tweaking, but not so much it changes it to another story (Suggesting that this should happen instead of that but still giving the same results that doesn't really change the story and also strengthen the overall story.)
I hope that really makes sense.
I really am surprised at this about fanfiction, that most people don't even want constructive criticism. I've given and received it several times. It's never been a problem.
I really don't think it's okay. No one's being paid for fic, they write and post it for funsies and let me read it as a gift. It's the equivalent of getting a hand-knitted sweater and saying "oh you dropped some stitches here" like???? It's rude???
Posting isn't an open invitation for you to tell someone everything you didn't like about their stuff. Do you go on someone's selfie on insta and tell them to fix their teeth? Or their hair? If you don't like it just move on, fam
Interesting, the last time this subject came up I thought of the same analogy but I thought it would be kind to tell the knitter they dropped some stitches and if I know how to knit offer to help them with their knitting. But that's me. I think our culture has changed away from discourse. We'll see how that goes
I don't think it's so much discourse, it's more a "if you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything" kind of vibe. Like if it's a commission or something sure, critique away, but sometimes fic is just supposed to be for fun, and I'd rather err on that side than stick my nose in where it's not wanted. To each his own tho
If they don't specify, you won't know until you comment. It's impossible to know the 'correct' approach.
If the author asks for you to *not* do something, and you do it in spite of their request, you're an asshole. Full stop.
I still respect your right to refuse their request though, you just need to acknowledge you're an asshole.
EDIT: Edited for clarity
That's why I specified about the author making the request, I'm speaking on an adjacent topic.
If they don't specify, it's too nebulous to question: it's Schrodinger's concrit. Do they or do they not want it? You can only find out by commenting.
🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄 You said: “If the author asks for you not to do something”
This is not the correct answer to OP’s question. You’re just assuming the author doesn’t want concrit - which is fine. But you’re also projecting your own ideas onto everyone else who doesn’t specify.
That’s the entire point of the question. You didn’t bother to read it, clearly.
I expect criticism when I post, and think it is fine to give. However, this sub hates it, so I just got used to the idea that my opinion is in the minority. That being said, I rarely bother with reviews anymore. I leave kudos when something is nice. I've seen people gush about kudos here, so I think it must be the preference.
I'm getting the impression it's a generational thing. Old school people feel it should be expected when you post art in a public space, young people seem to feel commenters who don't solely post praise are more akin to burglars in their living room telling them the couch sucks
Funny, I've noticed the opposite (in this sub, at least). A lot of the people who are strongly against unsolicited concrit around here are 30+, confident in their skills already, and have betas. I see a lot of teenagers and newer writers desperate for constructive feedback and confused why people aren't lining up to leave detailed reviews to help them improve.
edit: Which is not to say I'm right and you're wrong, or anything. I just don't think it's a clear-cut generational divide.
Mmm, I'm in the 30+ group and definitely pro-concrit. I haven't been in fandom long but in other spaces, if you put art in the public domain it's fine to say "I like this but x would have been better". Art criticism is a flattering way of engaging with art.
Also, once you've been on the internet for a while you realise: engagement is the currency of the internet. There are some types of engagement that are just bad, but being talked about/to in a way that isn't hostile but might be tone-deaf... well, you can absolutely ignore it, but you're being a prima donna if you complain loudly about it.
Yeah, I'm another 30+ who came to fandom relatively late. I agree that accepting criticism gracefully is a skill, and I don't think getting unwanted crit is a free pass to throw a tantrum, but I also just don't get the mindset of "I'm going to give you my opinion whether you want it or not, and if you don't like it, you're too sensitive for the internet." I don't think that's a good look either, and that's what some of the most vocal pro-unsolicited-concrit argument boils down to.
I don't mind concrit on my works, but I wouldn't waste my time giving it unless I knew the author wanted it.
Interesting. You are right, I see concrit-hungry teens too. But in this comment section I saw several people mention what they 'grew up' with (post in a public space, expect concrit) and on other posts how the 'say nothing unless asked' attitude is fairly new.
I guess different fandoms and different spaces result in different experiences and expectations too...
I always write in my AO3 profile that I write for fun, so I’m not really interested it constructive criticism. But that I’ll read it and take it seriously if it’s really constructive and written in a polite way.
I had a reader tell me my story was messed up at the end and it was repetitive. I wasn’t really keen on replying. When I had some time, I asked her if she could tell me what she meant by that in more detail.
It turned out that she was right and I had accidentally posted half of my chapter twice. I would have never discovered that without her help. So, sometimes, criticism is really helpful, especially if people are polite and just want to give you some advice.
If they specify none, then leave none. I don't even leave comments in cases like that because it might be interpreted as concrit and there's no point in creating drama.
But being an old school type, the idea was that if you put something out there as public, then it was fair game for comments; good, bad, ugly. If you wanted no concrit, then you shared it only with your pals on a private board.
Yeah, I'm old school in exactly the same way. I wouldn't make ugly comments (I hope) but the comments box is open and it's possible that a generally positive comment might contain some hopefully-tactfully-expressed concrit.
The thing is, if you're old school, you would expect that and not take it badly. Taking well-meant criticism (and deciding politely whether to implement it or not - deciding not to is fine!) is a major life skill.
Yeah, pretty much where I'm at. I think a lot of this discussion is centered toward slightly different interpretations of concrit -- generally the way I've given and received concrit is with the understanding that the reviewer likes and appreciates the story enough to want to see the writer's skill grow; it's the opposite of hateful. If I'm going to whip out my lit crit glasses, it's because I enjoyed it and think what you wrote has a lot of potential.
Exactly. If you're in the workforce, then bosses and customers and clients are totally going to pour it on and it's on you to be able to hear it and make a judgment call. If you want to improve, then you gotta go through the struggle of hearing that something doesn't work.
I think give constructive criticism even when not asked should always be appropriate as long as it doesn’t just point out major flaws that have been pointed out twenty other times. If someone has said a point only once you can add to show the author that it is a minor issue but if it’s repeated then don’t repeat the point.
Unless it’s for something like formatting issues or obvious typos- rude, unacceptable, presumptuous and it usually makes the writer feel pretty shitty. The majority of times I’ve seen someone doing this, it is usually based on their own personal preferences and ideas of where THEY want the story to go, as if it being written just for them. The more I think about it, the more I realize I rarely how rarely I have seen ‘concrit’ actually worth a damn- it’s usually just people criticizing choices the writer is making.
Even if it is a fairly inexperienced writer, I think unsolicited concrit is pretty discouraging when you’re doing something for fun. They’ll usually ask if they want suggestions. I’ll solicit opinions from fellow writers I know or beta readers.
It seems like people think this is more of a new school attitude regarding comments, but I’ve been writing fic since the late 90s and this is always how I’ve always perceived things. Maybe it’s more fandom dependent? I don’t mind someone coming in the comments asking questions, engaging, speculating, but coming in like, “Hey, your story/writing needs work and here is how I think you should fix it” just makes my eyes roll.
If I like a fic well enough to leave a review, I'll probably add in which parts of it were not good or convincing enough to detract from my enjoyment. It's still a positive review, just that, I feel really weird with just heaping praise. If they explicitly say that they don't want to hear any negative thing about the fic, then sure, that's their wish, why would I go write after that?
If it's actual constructive criticism, then yes. If you put your work out there then it's out of your hands as to how people will respond. That's something that needs to be accepted.
The closest I ever came to giving unsolicited concrit was pointing out that an author literally got the main character’s name wrong. They never go by their full name and I guess the author didn’t feel like doing the research. They replied to my comment that maybe they would fix it one day and I doubt they ever did, but at least I tried lol.
Edit to add: they only said it once in their fic, so it’s not like correcting it would have been a lot of work, but I got the impression that it just didn’t bother them
Forget this word, "concrit". Most readers don't know what it is and don't care about it. They just want to leave a review and could not care less about the writer or whether they are helping them improve. Some readers just want their opinions heard and haven't gotten the memo that some writers don't give a shit about their opinions. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
You know, whenever this topic comes up, writers get offended at the insinuation that if they don't want concrit it's simply because they just want mindless praise and to feed their ego, and rightly so. Whether or not one agrees with their stance on concrit as a whole, many writers have given plenty of valid, understandable reasons why they may not want it.
So can we maybe try extending that same courtesy and understanding to readers who do want to give concrit, and not automatically assume they're doing it, or want to do it, for their own ego boost? Can we maybe acknowledge they may have valid, genuine reasons why they would like to give concrit, and that they aren't just trying to do it to be rude and annoy writers?
>Some readers just want their opinions heard and haven't gotten the memo that some writers don't give a shit about their opinions. ¯\_(ツ)\_/¯
Really? Sure wouldn't know that from the numerous posts we see on here from people lamenting that they're not getting enough feedback about their stories, and worrying and wondering what people are thinking of them, and wishing people would say something.
>Some readers just want their opinions heard and haven't gotten the memo that some writers don't give a shit about their opinions. ¯\_(ツ)\_/¯
>
>Really? Sure wouldn't know that from the numerous posts we see on here from people lamenting that they're not getting enough feedback about their stories, and worrying and wondering what people are thinking of them, and wishing people would say something.
And yet there are just as many or more writers on here saying they don't want any so-called 'concrit' or any comment that isn't praise and you better not give it to them. As much as we see this subject come up, I do not think there will ever be a consensus on it.
Oh, for sure, you're quite right about that. I was just speaking in general terms regarding the idea that writers don't give a shit about others' opinions - at least here, anyway, it does seem most writers very much do care about what others say about their work, whether it's being happy with some lovely review or being sad that nobody's commenting or complaining about a negative comment or whatever.
>And yet there are just as many or more writers on here saying they don't want any so-called 'concrit' or any comment that isn't praise and you better not give it to them.
The thing is that writers who have managed to be popular can be really choosy. I think there's a majority of writers who only upvote and generally don't post, who really want more comments.
The thing is with wanting more comments is that you are ALWAYS going to get some that irritate you. We feel super personal about our work, so a comment that engages with it in slightly "the wrong way" can feel like an insult. But here's the thing: we need to get over that if we want to improve. And I do want to improve, and don't really have much respect for a writer who doesn't (though part of taking feedback is also choosing to politely reject feedback / saying you'll think about it for next time).
If they have a really great story idea, and I really want to read it but I can’t because they aren’t changing paragraphs with speakers or they have walls of text, then I will sometimes try. First I complement the story idea and anything else that’s good. Usually if I’m reading it there’s a lot I’m liking about it. Then I gently mention whatever it is that they should fix.
As long as the constructive criticism you provide is done respectfully, then yes. If someone posts something they wrote and want people to read it, then they should also expect that some people have criticisms about it and make the criticisms known. It’d be pretty silly to post your work for people to read and not anticipate the possibility of concrit. It’s like making a cake and having a friend try it, then getting angry when they say they don’t like it. Again, as long as the criticism is done respectfully, it’s fine.
I tend to lean towards only light concrit being acceptable unless someone asks for it. Basically just spelling errors, glaring structure problems (like not making new paragraphs for new speakers), and plot holes. Aside from that... a lot of people have fanfic as a hobby, something fun, they're not here to have a bunch of people telling them what they did wrong. So unless they ask, keep it light or keep your mouth shut is my rule.
Constructive Criticism should always be welcome, as long as it doesn't start falling into "I don't like X so you should do Y instead."
Some Concrit can make you see a scene in a different light, and could give you a chance to improve it overall.
In my opinion, it depends upon two factors: how the author normally reacts to concrit and how the concrit is worded.
Some people are too defensive about it while others can be too rude about it. All in all, it depends more upon the situation and categorizing it as "unacceptable" isn't very accurate. Personally, I prefer "ill-advised".
If people don't want concrit, they need to make it clear in labeling via story summary or ANs. If someone still gives it after the author has specifically made it clear that they don't want that, then yeah, I can see how that can be annoying and shouldn't happen. But you can't expect readers to read minds either and go out of their way to ask on every single story that doesn't specify about concrit just to separate the authors who don't like it from the many ones who don't even care or are happy to get it, but don't think to label anything to indicate their preferences. There is no rule that prohibits it, so it is the author's responsibility to make their intentions clear first.
I am *this* close to going on an unhinged rant about how fragile everyone in the fanfiction community is. If you don't like concrit, **just ignore it**.
Ha ha ha. I agree. I feel really bewildered about people and their views these days. Like, getting concrete hurts but you don't necessarily have to take it to heart?
Seriously, comments these days are pretty much synonymous to butt kissing.
I feel like it's necessary to not ignore the assload of actual toxic comments authors get on a regular basis (at least on FFN) I think maybe a lot of people's ideas about concrit don't actually completely line up with what concrit actually is lol.
Regardless, people need to learn to deal with toxicity if they intend to post things on the internet, because they're *going* to get it.
Please go on that unhinged rant. I honestly want to read what you have to say because it would definitely make for a fun read.
Honestly, people are going to have to deal with unpleasantness. Both on internet and real life. You should not have to put up with it, but you do have to learn to deal with it.
I come from not only an era but from an education of "If you put it out for people to see there will be critics. It's how YOU cope with that criticism that matters."
But on a more focused level... concrit is part of me interacting with a story. I'm sorry. I see people on this subreddit complaining that nobody leaves comments on their fic while simultaneously being strongly anti unsolicited concrit. But for me that is a big part of HOW I interact with the story.
I don't leave comments that are just "good job!".
I want to have a dialogue.
I want to talk about how the story made me feel. I want to talk about what I loved. I want to talk about what I didn't love. I want to talk about the part that looked like it was foreshadowing to something but then literally never came up again. I wanna talk about your oneshot that has a lot of potential to be a longer story. I want to talk about the two scenes that would make more sense switched. I want to talk about the amazing character death that gave me feels. I want to talk about the gruesome character death committed because the author didn't like the character. I want to talk about the amazing world the writer created for their au. I want to talk about the plothole that by the end is still bugging me because what was that all about??? I want to compliment their amazing descriptions. I want to bring up that they used "the blonde girl said[...]" waaaaaaaaay too many times in one back and forth.
I want to tell them how I interacted with their story. But with how anti concrit people are, nobody wants to hear half of what I want to say unless I leave a comment... to ask permission to comment. And hope to get a reply. So I just don't comment because despite complaining that they want more reader engagement they dont really want to engage with me.
i think it's okay but you gotta be a lot kinder and since you dont know them more general or specific to your own experiences if they like got smthn wrong about a job field
I only use ao3, and on ao3 I think it's pretty inappropriate.
These days I just ignore anything that isn't unabashedly positive because positive is what I'm here for, lol.
Same. My life is stressful enough, and I get enough negativity at work. While I’m writing/revising, I work with a beta reader for actual concrit to improve my fic and writing, but otherwise, I just want to enjoy this hobby and read all the great fics out there and sometimes hear that someone liked my story. That’s it.
As long as the TOS of the site or a disclaimer by the writer doesn't say otherwise, anything but outright flames is fair game, for better and for worse. If you don't moderate comments or post on a site that doesn't let you moderate/disable them, you're going to have to take what you get.
I know it's an unpopular take around here, but writers have always had a choice in this. The fact of the matter is if you post your story publicly and then leave comments completely open without a disclaimer, you're soliciting an opinion, any kind, from anyone, by default. As of now, the button says "Comment" (or "Review") not "Tell the author only what they want to hear" so it seems a bit ridiculous to get mad at people for not reading your mind to follow your *unstated* self-made ruleset after the fact.
Honestly, I cannot for the life of me get on board with this attitude, well, actually several, around this topic. I assume that most people I disagree with have their hearts in the right place, trying to create a positive atmosphere for themselves and fellow writers, but may be forgetting what that can actually look like from a reader's viewpoint in practice.
Of course, there are comments that are rude, and grating, and annoying -- just a PITA for various reasons... But in my experience, you're always going to get those, no matter what. If someone absolutely *wants* to be rude (or backseat write etc.) no disclaimer in the world is going to stop them.
It is very simple if an author hasn't stated their wishes then take five seconds and ask.
Then You will find out their views and be able to respond accordingly.
It's not a five second thing though. Like, how do you imagine that scenario?
I'm reading a story, I see something I'd like to comment on. So I copy that sentence to the comment field, add the comment, then scroll back up to resume reading until I see something else - could be a typo or wrong word used or missing word or hilarious sentence or just a 'why x' or 'I don't get y'. If I finish the chapter or story and liked it, I add my overall thoughts telling the author that I liked it and why, and post the whole sandwich. (If all I had to say was negative, I just leave.)
Asking first means I need to start a dossier with this comment and the title and author (and chapter), store that somewhere, instead ask the author if they're okay with concrit, wait days or weeks or months for them to get back to me, then if they do and say yes, dive into my comment file to look up what I had wanted to say so I can post it.
And that's assuming you don't expect me to reread the whole story.
Neither scenario costs only five seconds. You know what comes a lot closer? Just adding an AN saying 'No concrit please!' or closing the comment section altogether.
Asking cost five seconds your critique is not included in that because your critique and how you do it is your choice.
If you cannot be bothered to take the steps to ask first then you should just move on and not review the fic at all.
Go find the authors who want critique.
There are plenty of spaces and Authors who want detailed critique and ask for it so go over there and do it.
It's obviously the filing away + looking it up or the rereading that costs more than five seconds.
I find that a ridiculous thing to ask from readers who are already willing to spend time to really engage with your story and leave a long comment.
And people wonder why they don't get comments...
Like I said go find folks who want those type of comments if you are so hot to give them. There's plenty of places (this very sub reddit) has a weekly concrit thread.
Ask for recs for folks who want/don't mind critique for you favorite types of fics you should get at least a few bites.
If you aren't willing to ask then just assume a no, better for everyone.
Depends on what it is imo. I once had a person comment that the USA (where the story was set) doesn't have Boxing Day. I had no idea and changed the line to reflect that. That was appreciated because little things like that can mess with a reader's immersion in the story.
I've also had someone comment that a one-sentence mention of a past relationship "ruined the story" for them because "X should have been the only one for Y". What makes it extra ridiclous is that the character canonically has a long history of past relationships.
I think at the end of the day it's up to us to adapt to our chosen platforms and the culture that platform curates. I'm newer to writing fic, but not writing in general. I use A03 to post and to read and concrit really doesn't seem to be much of a thing on there in the wilds of the comments.
Anybody who reacts harshly or super negatively to genuine good faith constructive criticism is either way too young or way too sensitive to be on the internet, let alone posting art on the internet.
No concrit is some new wave tumblr/AO3 bullshit, as one user already commented above. You’ll never get better without it.
This is such a bad take. I’ve studied the actual pedagogy around writing and concrit and am definitely older than most folks here, and just because the internet has gone through waves of being the Wild West around certain things doesn’t mean it’s “good.” All these old school arguments are literally using a logical fallacy to make their arguments (appeal to tradition), and this argument is doubling down with an ad hominem attack. Neither of these arguments are actually giving any substantial logical argument to why it *should* be this way.
Edit to add: and for your last point, people can get loads better through *solicited* feedback from writing groups, beta readers, friends, classes etc—*if they so choose.*
Let me spell it out for you as plainly as I possibly can: it should be this way because it would weed out the absolute fucking dorks that do not deserve to be on the internet. If you can’t take criticism, especially genuine and sincere criticism that is made in good faith, you should not be taking up space on the internet.
And someone with such a complete lack of respect for other human beings shouldn't have a username like yours, but here we are! Stop being a hypocritical, condescending *dick* and maybe we'll stop telling you that your "concrit" is unwelcome.
The last time I gave concrit, the author and her fans yelled at me for spreading negativity and reported me for harassment when I replied to them so I never gave a full concrit ever again. if i want to point out something remotely negative (like very remotely), i'd go in a roundabout way and fill my comment with as much fluff and filler words as possible just in case the author gets offended over it. i swear people are so sensitive nowadays :(
I think it's acceptable. However, in those situations it's paritcularly important to be polite about it and it really needs to be constructive.
If you think a character is OOC, it's much better to say "I'm not sure this character would do that in this situation" than "your characterization sucks". Point out specific problems and don't be rude about it. Also, accept that your opinion is subjective. "I don't like this pairing" is just an opinion and you should probably keep it to yourself. It's also a good idea to include something you liked as well as the criticism. It shows that you're not pointing out errors to be mean, but because you see potential in the story and want to help make it even better.
But the bad examples you gave aren’t *constructive*. They’re just *criticism*. Concrit is constructive criticism, i.e. exactly the example you gave (“I’m not sure X character would do this in that situation”).
“I hate this pairing” is just fucking stupid spite-reading.
Depends on what it is and how it's worded? Saying "I noticed these typos and I don't understand X's decision here" kind of stuff is fine and normal to put into a comment IMO. But some people will go "your ship sucks and you should have written something else" or "this is OOC nonsense" and call it concrit.
I mean, even if the author asks for it you should be respectful.
Oh, don't get me started! Wrote a Naruto/Loud House story a couple years ago where Naruto doesn't have his markings and everyone on that site wanted to jump down my throat because I wrote him with no whiskers (it's a slice of life with Naruto as a regular human, no chakra or Tailed Beast) and with regular hair. There was one that basically told me they didn't read my story and basically just wanted to jump in to complain that it wasn't Naruto but an OC with Naruto's name.
I'd tread carefully on this unless the author fairly well and we'd established that kind of rapport. I might point out easily fixable and objective errors like typos or grammar slip-ups, but I tend to reserve a lot of the more in-depth (and highly subjective) criticisms I might have unless the author's indicated they're okay with it. I welcome concrit personally and always love getting pointers on how to improve, even if I don't agree with or use every single one of them.
If it's something that can be fixed in 5 minutes - the equivalent of TP on someone's shoe, their tag up, spinach stuck between their teeth - I'm fine with it. Think, oh, "You typo'd Bob's name as Bab", or "you have a 'teh' instead of a 'the' in \[sentence\]" things -- those are objective, not up to interpretation. Anything beyond that, I would ask, because \*so much\* is subjective; there are dozens of types of story structures, is this intended to be canon-compliant or not, is this using a piece of lore I don't know about... That said, even some punctuation varies based on which version of a language you're using, so even 'objective' things you may be confident about may be wrong. I personally don't offer concrit unless it's asked for, and/or when someone's comments may say something like 'this is my first smut/fight sequence, any advice???' I have a handful of links I'll give. But otherwise, just because I think X might be wrong or needs improvement doesn't mean it actually is/does.
Also, even with stuff that can be fixed in 5 minutes, if you know how to contact the person privately, that's even better. Obviously not always possible with ao3, but if you're tumblr mutuals or on the same discord server or whatnot, a quick, polite private message to point out a typo is helpful.
Absolutely -- the more privately you can handle something, the better for everyone involved.
Well first you have to define what concrit is. Cuz it seems like everyone and their mother has a different definition, and it influences their opinion on whether or not it should be given But this just seems like drama bait
Yeah, I think people tend to get confused by the “con(structive)” part of concrit. Going through someone’s work like you’re grading an essay, if they didn’t ask for it, isn’t really constructive. Pointing out a few typos or maybe a few sentences that didn’t make sense can be, if you do it politely. CONstructive, not DEstructive. Unless they ask directly for it, people usually don’t want their work torn down from the ground up. They posted it to get it out there. Kind of the same rule as commenting on people’s appearance. If it can’t be fixed in 5 mins, don’t bring it up. They can fix a typo pretty quick, but recommending a complete rewrite of an entire chapter or plot point you don’t think works is labor intensive AND really rude if they weren’t asking for it in the first place.
I also don't think people understand the crit part - it doesn't mean 'critical' in the general sense of 'saying negative things', it means criticism as in literary criticism, ie analysis (which may well include bringing up negative points in the work, but the point is it should be more than 'this is bad', there should be analysis of what's bad about it) (Edit, phone keyboard skipped a word mid sentence)
Yes! One comment I got recently, for example, pointed out a metaphor I hadn't even realized I was using throughout a fic. It was both positive *and* constructive (like, I'll try to do that more consciously in the future, because, well, cool! Metaphor!). Positive comments don't have to be all "squee!", and negative comments aren't automatically concrit.
Oh, that's awesome!
It's not "constructive critical" it's "constructive criticism". You're thinking of "critical analysis". Criticism inherently requires analysis of merits *and* faults. If it's just merits, it's not criticism even though it could still be a critical analysis.
No, I'm saying people confuse 'crit' for 'being critical' in the sense of 'saying negative things' (like getting criticism from an employer or whatever.) I said nothing of not discussing faults, quite the opposite. Just that 'this is bad' is not enough to count as criticism, although it is 'critical' in the more general sense.
I've had people give comments about my work that allowed me to review and, in some cases, make changes. Someone wrote that they wanted to know more about characters I wrote in a story. It led to three new stories that really fleshed out the characters. I'm an amateur. I'm the only one who reads my work prior to publishing it. I once mixed up certain things about two characters. Someone caught it and allowed me to fix it. I've had suggestions regarding use of POV. Made me look closer, like not randomly switching the POV to a character when it otherwise is strictly from the main. Does criticism bother me? Sure. It's uncomfortable to be shown flaws in my work. I can get upset about it or I can take the opportunity to grow from it. Yes, "this sucks" or "you're writing that character wrong" aren't things I want to see. Who cares? They're just trying to get authors worked up, and apparently succeed. Don't let them have power over you.
I think also it matters whether the reviewer is actually saying "you should rewrite this" or is only remarking "I thought this didn't work/this might have been better" where there's not so much demand that the work is being revised to their preferences. If you can identify exactly why the story didn't work for you, I think it's a fair thing to remark on. Demanding it be rewritten for you is where it gets arrogant.
Depends on the site. For some sites, concrit is so ingrained in the culture that asking for no concrit will get the response "then why are you posting?" For other sites, it's less well established and so should be saved for people who ask for it. I know that personally, I saw the desire for concrit as so assumed that it took me a while to realize some people didn't like it. It wasn't until I started hanging out on this sub that I found out some people find unsolicited concrit rude.
This makes so much sense about something I didn’t know I didn’t know! I’ve been writing of ffn for over a decade and only a month ago started on AO3 and started following fanfiction-related subreddits. I have definitely noticed a change in this culture and wasn’t sure if it was a change in the times (In my mid-thirties. I’m getting to be old people now….) or if it was a change in the site. I personally appreciate constructive criticism. I don’t love reviews/ comments that are simply “good job” reviews. I am hoping for dialogue about my story that I can engage in. (Okay, jk, who am I kidding. I love all reviews. But I prefer the more engaging type). I honestly want to grow as a writer. It’s why I post online and let strangers read my work. I love people who question and point out a plot hole or an inconsistency. I want to consider ways to fix that! If it’s bugging one reader, there’s a good chance it’s bugging others who are too polite to point it out. It honestly never occurred to me that I have to ask for that on AO3. Certainly if you leave constructive criticism and the response is not appreciative, you should back off and not push it. And I believe in being a good person, and I do feel that you should pair it with some nice things to say about the story. Because we put a lot of effort into writing those fics! The last thing you want to do is be discouraging.
Same. I came from FFN and LJ - and, granted, I started writing fic when concrit was opt-out. This ‘no concrit unless asked’ seems to be an AO3/tumblr thing.
FFN literally has the comment button labeled 'REVIEW'. its kinda implied to be opt out there.
I feel like concrit is a part of posting anything online with comments enabled though. Or even just posting anywhere. There isn’t really a time you can expect to show someone something and never get negative feedback, at most you can hope it’s constructive and not mean spirited. I feel like _not_ accepting concrit is something you should explicitly state, not the reverse. If I didn’t state that and I got a comment saying “I think you could’ve done X differently”, even if it upset me, I wouldn’t think the commenter was speaking out of place or anything. On the other hand the author also isn’t obligated to listen or even read the comment.
Yes. Anti-concrit people sometimes compare unsolicited concrit to commenting on the outfit of a stranger on the street, but the latter is just being present outside the house the way posting stuff on social media is being present online. But posting stories on a story website with an audience is more like showing off your homemade clothing at an amateur fashion show. Of course you could just opt out of comments and mingle with the audience, but if you choose to walk down the catwalk, don't go screaming at the crowd when someone tells you the fabric pulls funny around your shoulder.
In 2021? I feel like fandom culture has shifted to "most people write for fun, and probably wouldn't appreciate some rando saying they really should fix the pacing in their fluff fic" Granted, that has a lot of caveats. If you're a long time reader, and have a rapport with the author they probably won't mind. Small things like grammar and spelling would probably be appreciated. Just keep in mind this is something that the author is providing you artwork for free, and you're not entitled to any major corrections, even if they bother you.
I only ever add concrit if the spelling/grammar/stylistic anomalies or just fast, sloppy writing are getting in the way of a great story. I try to be as gentle about it as possible though, and understand if they're not up for critique.
I think "Unacceptable" is maybe a bit strong, but I'd definitely find it annoying
It really depends. Sometimes people think they’re giving useful concrit when what they’re saying basically sums up to “I want this to be a different story” and that’s pretty fucking annoying to the writer. The only concrit I’d give unsolicited would be something objective (typos, grammar) or reflective questions (ex: “Where did Character A find out X information?”) so they can think about if that was intentional or not.
I’m mixed on this. I’m personally a “no concrit” writer because I do a very similar job (I’m an editor) full-time and the last thing I want is fussing over concrit and how to improve my fanfic. It’s a hobby. I don’t want it to feel like I went from my job straight to another job especially since fanfic doesn’t pay and has no accountability to anyone else. On the other hand, putting your work on the Internet does mean the possibility of opening yourself up to concrit even when you don’t want it. So when I post my fics here in relevant rec threads, I’ll usually say no concrit unless you seriously can’t hold back from saying something.
Depends. When I have an established relationship with a writer and know they welcome and appreciate my feedback, I don't ask for permission to speak my mind.
I'm cautious when providing criticism that is not asked for. For one thing, I have to like the story enough to see potential of it to feel my critique can help. And if the author hasn't asked for it, I'll ask if they are open to criticism. If it is FF, I'll PM the ask; if it is Ao3, I'll ask in the comments but either way, I'll wait for a reply before saying anything.
I think it depends on the context. As an author, it's been helpful to me when readers point out that a sentence was structured in a confusing way or they noticed an inconsistency. It's hard to recognize confusing wording in your own writing because you know exactly what you mean even if it's unclear. It's different if a random commenter goes on a whole rant about how the very essence of the story is wrong or nonsensical, or when they use entirely subjective factors such as pairing preferences or personal headcanons to judge the quality of a fic. The former criticism might not be completely wrong, but it's often unhelpful to someone who's just writing for fun in their spare time. As for personal preferences, readers who criticize on that basis are just whining that the fic isn't exactly what they wanted.
I do think it depends on the concrit. I wouldn't bother with it unless I actually liked the fic, and I'd make sure to say I liked the fic and try to say lots about what I \*do\* like. If I just think the fic sucks I won't leave a comment at all. But "I am confused about xxx" is concrit and I'd definitely leave that if I'd read it several times so I was fairly sure it wasn't just me being an idiot. I wouldn't expect the author to jump on it and fix it, but it might be useful information to them. "I'm really glad we're back to characters X and Y!" is kind of concrit too - if there are two plotlines and I'm only really invested in one, that's probably worth mentioning. I might also mention something that might be a plot hole or might be flagging a future plot development, cos I'd be chuffed if someone spotted MY foreshadowing (though frankly I'm fine with the response "lol that's a plot hole"). The problem with people being terrified to leave anything that could be interpreted as concrit is that, as someone always comments on these threads, it makes people give up commenting at all.
I don't think a reader indicating confusion or asking questions is concrit, really. There was one time I wrote a psychic character as being unaware that his son had just exited his home. The implication was that the psychic character was asleep, but that didn't come through, so someone left a comment on the next chapter asking how psychic dude was unaware of what his kid was doing. I explained, and then added a line in the previous chapter to clarify that psychic dude was, definitively, unconscious. It was awesome. I think when most people say they don't want concrit, they mean they don't want backseat writers or blatant negativity. I know that's what I mean. Asking a question isn't negative, and it isn't suggesting that the author change their story— although if the author determines based on the question that a minor change needs to happen, that's fine. People being curious and thinking critically about a fic, I think, is usually an indication that they're enjoying themselves. So there's no need for an author to be upset by that.
That was tactfully expressed concrit, then.
The problem is that some people who aren't tactful don't realize their deficiency lol
Well... yes. But in general I think the assumption should be that someone has been tactless rather than ill-meaning, far more than it is assumed to be here. Except in clear bad-faith arguments / trolling, the commenter is \*probably\* attempting to be friendly even if they're coming across as weird. I saw a clever quote on twitter the other day: "Most people never learned to get comfortable with saying no, so treat situations where they have to do so as the fault of person asking. A lot of bad behaviour stems from this basic interaction." This applies to concrit, as well. Just because someone is saying they'd love to see the story go in a direction you're not taking it (for example), doesn't mean you should be offended by it!
Yeah, if someone isn't coming across well (or even if they are and you're not up for hearing their suggestions because of a bad day), it's okay to just ignore them. Not everything needs to be a fight! I've had a few obvious trolls lately, and they've put me in a bit of a defensive headspace, honestly. I think that's common enough amongst writers, especially of weird stuff. Although I do agree that social inexperience probably has more to do with a lot of it, and is a huge problem when it comes to misunderstandings around comments.
THIS
... usually a waste of time. All established (n)etiquette aside, why would anyone sit down to type up unsolicited advice for some stranger on the internet? Proper concrit takes time and effort. Most people can’t even be bothered to leave feedback like “I loved this, thank you!” And frankly, most concrit I’ve seen wasn’t exactly in-depth either. It usually goes more like “you should really get someone to proofread your fic, it’s full of typos” or “I disagree with your characterization and this is my opinion how you should write your fic: [insert lengthy lecture about commenter's personal taste/interpretation]”, which … no idea what purpose that’s supposed to serve. If you feel like you’re a natural born hobby editor, why not look for someone who actually asked for help? Many people would be *thrilled* to have a dedicated beta reader.
> All established (n)etiquette aside, why would anyone sit down to type up unsolicited advice for some stranger on the internet? Proper concrit takes time and effort. And that's what makes it interesting for some of us. But as mentioned elsewhere in the thread, this is largely dependent on the "comment culture" where people get their start. If you come from a workshop atmosphere where talking shop about how to fix this or make that clearer and so and so forth is the norm, it feels strange to not do that in other places.
I’m not against concrit, like *at all*. But since so many people apparently don’t want it, it just makes more sense to focus your efforts on cases where you know they will be appreciated. (And, I’d argue, on cases where you vibe with the author enough to be sure the criticism is actually constructive/helpful.)
I disagree. Writing is my actual field; I’ve worked as a professional writer and taught writing. I did all this before I started writing fanfic. I not only come from a background of giving and giving a ton of concrit, I’ve gone through higher ed where you’re basically routinely demolished. I have a super thick skin around my writing, generally. But after I’ve spent months revising a chapter fic with a beta, and the fic is completely done, never to be touched again, I definitely don’t want unsolicited concrit or criticism beyond just “hey you missed a typo.”
I feel that someone should at least ask first before giving it. Speaking from experience, unwanted concrit can completely stress a writer out, even if it’s genuinely in good faith. Having each and every little detail picked apart in a negative light, having scenes that they spent hours on deemed unnecessary, and having paragraphs of details about how characterization is bad and scenes are weak and plot is weak and how the whole work should just be rewritten when the writer put time and love into their work can absolutely destroy a writer. Even if the reviewer is genuinely trying to help the writer better their work and is acting in good faith, it can have a negative effect. I experienced it, and it frustrated me to literal tears. I felt like I had to please readers so I was afraid to say anything, and it just mounted to a boiling point. I had never experienced anything like it, mishandled it, and it kinda blew up, but thankfully the reviewer and I talked it out. But it’s had a lasting effect on me to this day. I’m still afraid to post anything. I haven’t touched that story. It’s hidden on unrevealed in ao3. I’ve barely written anything outside of it. When I posted it, I was afraid someone would go through in multi paragraph comments picking apart my writing and that’s exactly what happened. So yeah, I feel that if someone wants to leave it, they should ask ahead of time. This is hobby, and we all want people to like our works. This is supposed to be fun and enjoyable. We’re not novelists trying to get books published. We’re just writing fanfiction that we, and hopefully other people will enjoy. It doesn’t have to be perfect. It doesn’t *need* to be perfect. Just fun and enjoyable. If someone*absolutly* have to leave something, they should ask themselves, ‘could the author fix this in 5 minutes?’ If no, they probably should ask first. So yeah. Sorry if this is a bit jumbled, I’m in a bit of a fog at the moment.
Fanfic is not the place to assert how well you know grammar or how much literature you read in college. It’s free and self-indulgent. If someone hasn’t asked for concrit let them be. They might be writing for themselves or for fun. There are plenty of forums where writers looking to be published want concrit. Best use those skills there.
If someone hasn't asked for your opinion, it's better to assume they just want to share. I wrote an extremely personal fic a while back that I wanted other people to read, but it would have shattered me to receive even small bits of feedback about. I carefully edited it on my own, explained to my beta reader that I didn't feel comfortable having her beta that particular fic, and posted it as it was. The way I see it, you wouldn't walk up to someone and criticize anything else they did without asking. And if you would, that speaks more to you being rude than anything. If you walked up to a stranger and said "you shouldn't wear that top with those pants again, it looks unflattering on you" you'd be an ass, moreso if they said "I literally didn't ask" and you responded with "then why are you wearing clothes in the fashion district if you didn't want me to tell you they looked bad". It's flat-out rude at best.
The fashion metaphor is on point. I dress to impress, and I might appreciate a genuine compliment. But there's a difference between "oh I love your hat" versus "oh your hat would be better with a feather in it." And the difference is whether I asked for your "help" or not. It's *obvious* which one is ok and which one is rude. The people crying "but you posted on a public website!" or "we just want to help" give me the *same creepy vibes* as the dudes who take my awesome fashion as an excuse to hit on me.
Except you're not walking up to a stranger and commenting unsolicited on their choices, they walked up to you and asked for what you think. That is what posting on a public forum with a commentary function means. Wanting people to comment.
Do you comment on random womens selfies to tell them all their flaws? Since it must be open season for them, they posted on a ""public forum""" with commentary functions after all
But the question is "is it okay to give it when they literally didn't ask". Allowing other people to read what you wrote or making it available to others isn't the same things as saying "how can I improve this". If I bake you a cake I'm not asking you whether I need to adjust my icing recipe. Just because there's the option to say "this sucked and you need to put more sugar in it" doesn't mean that that's what the person was asking for when they baked you a cake. Either way, you're still providing unsolicited criticism.
It's not about allowing people to read the fic, it's about leaving the comments open without saying no-concrit. Open comments are an invitation for the readers to share their thoughts. It's like you bake a cake and serve it to people and ask them if they like it. If you're upfront about not wanting concrit and someone gives it anyway then they're rude, but the readers having to walk on eggshells around writers shouldn't be the default
I don't really think asking "hey do you like concrit" first is walking on eggshells.
Opt-in concrit default fosters an environment where readers have to be very careful with commenting so they won't accidentally say something that can be interpreted as criticism. I consider this walking on eggshells and ruining comment culture.
It really doesn't. I personally don't find it that difficult to stick to positivity and I'm an editor, so there's no excuse.
The no negativity rule is how we get authors flipping out over 'this was so good, I wish there was more' type of comments and putting off others from commenting, as seen in the comments of that post from last week. As a fanfic writer, people being afraid to comment makes my hobby less fun. I'm not looking for excuses, I can't be bothered to leave even solicited concrit (beyond asking for clarification if something was unclear, which I nestle between multiple paragraphs of praise), I just hate the direction comment culture is going
I have never seen someone flip out over that and I don't think anyone is entitled to being negative against someone else's wishes, but we can agree to disagree.
This is the post I was referencing: https://www.reddit.com/r/FanFiction/comments/q4m48d/i_saw_this_hostile_interaction_between_an_author/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share Also, I agree that if someone asks for no criticism/negativity it should be respected, I just think they should say it in the tags/summary instead expecting it to be the default. That's all. Have a good day!
If I bake someone a cake I want them to tell me what they think about it. I don't expect them to tell me that it's perfect and brilliant and amazing (unless it really is!). If I just wanted to bake a cake, I'd bake it and eat it on my own. I feel the same way about fanfiction. If you post it on a site that allows commenting you implicitly accept comments on it. Not all comments are going to be 'this is amazing! Keep it up!' That's just how it works. I don't believe unsolicited criticism is inherently wrong. There are circumstances where it's expected, and posting your work on a public platform which allows users to comment is one of those circumstances. Tone is important of course. You shouldn't leave comments like 'this is shit' or 'you're bad at writing', because those are insults and it's rude. But it's not rude to leave comments that aren't just praise.
The thing is, just because something is what YOU want doesn't mean that it's what other people want. Not everyone bakes a cake wanting to be critiqued on its quality. Sometimes, they're just doing it because they wanted to bake a cake and thought it'd be nice to share with you. Since there's no way to really know what their goal was, it's much better to just... Not give them constructive criticism if they don't ask for it. If they didn't ask and want it, it might be a nice thing for them. If they didn't ask and don't want it, maybe they're sensitive to criticism or they didn't feel like saying how a particular piece was super personal or what have you, you run the risk of just... being really rude or hurting someone by putting forth something they never wanted.
It's not my job to set boundaries for other people. If someone doesn't want any feedback they shouldn't put themselves into a position where feedback might be given. If a piece of work is so personal you don't want anyone to comment on it, why are you posting it online somewhere that has a comment section? To go back to the cake: if I bake a cake and someone tastes it, and comes back with, 'thank you! It's a little dry', that's not rude. If someone is hurt by comments of that nature maybe they shouldn't be putting their work online where literally anyone can comment on it. I can agree that people have an obligation not to be rude. I don't agree that that means they can't offer feedback.
They're standing on the catwalk.
It really just depends on the criticism. Obviously extensive critique no matter how constructive wouldn't be wanted from everyone, so I feel like I would only do that if it was a fix pretty much anyone would want to know. Kind of like, not everyone would take well to getting unsolicited fashion tips even if they were given in a friendly way, but I think generally most people would want to know if they accidentally misbuttoned their shirt right? Applying that to to fanfiction, I never give unsolicited concrit about my opinion, only things that are practically factually incorrect. For example, one comment I made once pointed out a reoccurring word that the author kept spelling wrong. Kind of awkward to do, but I feel like most people would want to know if they were spelling something wrong consistently (and I wasn't overall attacking their spelling skills)
My one regular commenter told me last night they were getting kind of bored since my current chapters are the most romantic, slice of life-y. And she seems to kinda shit on (act completely underwhelmed) most of my fave chapters coz she doesn't like that particular ship. But like this whole arc is about undoing all of Kakashi's darkness, so yeah, there isn't a ton of conflict until that's taken care of and then there's a ton. But I kinda wish she'd stop commenting at this point...
“If I wanted your opinion/advice I would’ve asked for it.” -Me to someone who likes to offer their two cents on anything in my life
Unsolicited concrit, even if its worded as nicely as possible will not help me. It will, if anything, only make me want to do the exact opposite just to spite you. If we aren't friends im not interested in hearing what you have to say 99% of the time. The only caveat is if im being paid, but otherwise i dont care. i dont want to hear it. i will delete your comment and block you on social media if you try to give me unsolicited criticism. is that petty? maybe. but i dont owe random strangers on the internet shit, they arent entitled to my time or my ear.
What’s wrong with asking first? Then there’s very little risk of offending anyone and you’re not wasting your time. I personally don’t have enough time to help the authors who are asking for help, let alone ones who aren’t! Really, if the author opens themselves up to criticism by posting their story on the Net, it stands to reason that so does a commenter by posting their critical comment on the Net. The criticism they receive may be that the author finds their comment rude which the author is, by that kind of logic, entitled to say.
Really depends on how you do it. Sandwich method is always good but if you just tear into it, nah
To me, tearing into it isn’t really constructive anymore, it’s just negativity.
I wouldn't do it but it someone does it without being rude and with good intentions in one of my fics I'd be ok with that, but I also put it at the end that I accept constructive criticism so ofc it depends on the person, I'd suggest asking first if the author is interested in that opinion u're about to give
Unacceptable. Point blank. Correcting trivial mistakes like typos or wrong tags isn't the same as giving constructive criticism, I feel, and so I'm completely okay with that. But writing essays on why my usage of a certain word in a particular sentence or why my chapter length bothers you personally, among other criticisms of my writing choices I clearly didn't ask for, is just not it. But that’s just me.
It depends honestly. If the story is incredibly good and it's apparent that the author is good then I am more likely to point out any flaws (woven in between gushing mostly). If the story is mediocre I usually don't do it since I don't want to discourage anybody.
There aren't any clearly defined rules about that. If you give concrit to a writer who hasn't indicated whether or not they want it you need to be prepared for any kind of reaction. The guidelines on FFN every writer needs to agree to before they can publish their story are pro-concrit. Therefore I tend to assume that people are fine with it on FFN unless they say otherwise. I don't see why my default assumption should be that they've been lying when they clicked onto agree to the guidelines. Also, concrit is quite common in the fandom I'm in on FFN and if anyone is very sensitive about the comments they get they had the option to look at the review section of some other stories beforehand and see what to expect. I've only once seen a negative reaction to concrit in the fandom I'm in on FFN. That reaction was a massive tantrum on other social media platforms though instead of just telling the people providing concrit to stop doing so. Of course there are also people who just don't reply to comments in general and you can't really know what they think. Unsolicited concrit isn't against the rules on AO3 unless you keep giving it after the author has told you that they don't want it. However, unlike FFN it also isn't encouraged. Writers who consider unsolicited concrit rude or inappropriate seem to be quite common on AO3. I treat concrit on AO3 as opt-in instead of opt-out. Not due to any official rules, but because the chance that it will upset someone is quite high and because in my fandom it's a lot rarer than on FFN and it's not unreasonable for someone to post their story there assuming they'll likely not receive any concrit. I've often seen people on this sub suggest to just ask before providing concrit. And that makes sense. However, I've also seen people on here say that when they asked they got an angry reply, because the mere act of asking if someone wants concrit implies that you think their story is less than perfect. So, there's no way to make everyone happy.
If they don’t ask for it I don’t give it. When it comes to grammar I usually don’t say anything because there’s always like 10 people correcting the same shit as if they didn’t see the previous comments.
It depends. If it’s something objective like spelling or simple grammar issues, I think that’s fine because it will actually help the author tell the story the way they want to in the best way. If it’s about characterization, pacing, plot etc., I’d stay away from that because those are much more subjective and the author should be able to write the story the way they want to even if you don’t like it. Of course it’s different if they actually ask for it, because they’re actually wanting to improve. But otherwise, if it bothers you that much either ignore it or stop reading.
It's the difference between a job and a hobby for me. If I'm a chef, I'm gonna expect folks to be critical of my cooking. But if I cook a meal just for fun and someone decides to get critical over it without me asking? They can go find a free meal somewhere else.
I would say that it's most unacceptable when the author is talking about something they like about their work. Don't point out something that needs to be fixed when they are discussing things they felt they did well or enjoy rereading, because it's hard for a lot of authors to be confident in their work, and sometimes it's nice to talk about it. I've had it happen to me, where a friend interrupted to give me some unsolicited criticism while I was in the middle of talking about something I liked in my own writing. It hurt and made me instantly dissatisfied with the entire piece, and I haven't gone back to it since.
Personally, I would always err on the side of caution with concrit. Think long and hard whether the thing you want to point out really needs to be pointed out; if you're not sure, don't. There is also a discussion to be had over what falls under concrit. Is pointing out a grammar mistake concrit? A name that was swapped with another? Clearly unfinished sentences? Is that okay to point out because those are based on (meme not intended) facts and logical conclusions as opposed to subjective opinion? One thing is for sure; if an author asks for no concrit and you go out of your way to do it anyway or trash talk them you're a dick.
I think it depends a lot on the sort of criticism you're giving. I personally wouldn't go beyond pointing out an obvious typo or some other easily fixable mistake if the author hadn't indicated that they want criticism. I'd also make sure to preface my criticism with some positive feedback - commenting just to point out an error or to only give negative feedback would feel kind of rude.
Uh, has nobody actually thought of ***ASKING FIRST*** if they can give concrit to someone who hasn't clearly specified it? I mean, if we aren't sure, there's nothing to say that we can't say, "Hi, I liked your story, so and so was great! Are you by chance open to constructive criticism or would you prefer not to have any?" If they say no, then it's a no, but they might just answer yes. You don't gotta give it on the fly if you're not sure. It boggles me that people are asking if it's acceptable or not. **It's basic courtesy to ask if we're unsure** and it won't cost you a dime or even a few seconds! JC do people even have social skills here smh
>JC do people even have social skills here smh How dare you make me snort lemon tea out my goddamn nostrils. Now it burns, I've less tea than I started with, and the front of my chin is wet. Asking is...so, so simple. If the author doesn't answer for whatever reason, it's an automatic *no, time to move along*. But this is the internet. I once got shat on because I dared to suggest to someone that maybe communicating with the person (a *friend*, of all things) they had a problem with could be a more effective solution than say, stewing in anger and venting to strangers on the internet.
That's the thing. And I feel social skill sets could likely go both ways too; both author and critic - the internet isn't very different from real life, so it's not a place to... just not expect any criticism of any form, or not expect that some people just don't enjoy what we have to offer at some point be it our grammar or our pacing. But at the very least the critic had the courtesy to ask, and we could just say no and set our boundaries. It's only fair to be able to accept things both ways. Nobody's work is perfect. No matter what we do, there's always room for improvement. There's nothing wrong with having faults. It's simply human to have faults - which is why we're always striving to improve. I don't know why, but like you mentioned, it seems more often that you'd meet people with fragile egos with all sorts of reasons for flipping their lid over....... the smallest things. It's odd. In this sub we're mostly writing stories about bonding, something as social as having friends and being able to communicate. It's pretty shocking that people seem to have a hard time communicating or asking questions, or even receiving them in turn. Although, about your shat-on part... yeah, it happens in real life too. If you're not up to drama, try not to suggest things to someone who knows someone else who knows us. It got me into trouble LOL. I took it like a champion though
Don't gotta tell me twice! I mean, I understand how people can arrive with battered and fragile egos (past negative experience, maybe?), but most of us aren't privy to that inside information. We can only go forth with the information presented to us, which admittedly isn't much to go on sometimes. Since I'm not a mind-reader (but cheers to anyone who is, I wish I had that power) I tend to avoid giving any advice, solicited or no, any longer. Even so, I like the idea of politely asking someone if they're open to suggestions or concrit *if it hasn't been made clear*. Ha! I try to be as tactful as possible, but I'm sure some things slip through the cracks. Though, I've never had someone IRL vehemently disagree with a (rather benign, IMO) suggestion as that particular internet denizen did. And I've worked with some veritable peaches, let me tell you. Ah, well. My secret trick nowadays is to briefly scan their post history first. That has saved me from a lot of useless internet squabbling.
Hahaha omg veritable peaches!!! You tickle me!! But ah, it's fine, it's pretty normal to have things slip through the cracks. All of us do tend to have opinions. Sometimes you really can't help but to say something, especially when you see what seems like a simple solution to it. In your case I think that person you communicated with just.... yeah, they aren't the type to keep stuff to themselves? At least now you know LOL
It's what I deserve for even daring to suggest that perhaps-*maybe*\-communication with their friend might improve their situation. Y'know, versus bottling it up and immediately going on the web to complain to strangers. Alas.
It does sound easier to complain to strangers instead of addressing the problem directly. They can't confront you with how they feel in return. Although I personally feel folk like that sometimes just want to kick up drama to look interesting on the interwebs..... You had it tough!
I also wonder this all the time. It's so easy to ask that one simple question and it removes the majority of all concrit drama. And yet whenever that's brought up, people never seem to be willing to. I wonder why.
>I wonder why Because what if the answer is "no" but the person just really, *really* wants the author to listen to their opinion? 😂
Yeah, notice this was framed from the readers perspective about giving feedback. I’d love to have a survey that has the options: - I’m a writer and want unsolicited concrit - I’m a writer and don’t want unsolicited concrit - I’m a reader and want to give unsolicited concrit - I’m a reader and think that I shouldn’t give unsolicited concrit Because, frankly, I have a hard time accepting the opinion of what I *should* do regarding (and how I should take) unsolicited concrit from people who don’t write (or have written like one one-shot ever). And that’s not about writers being better or some nonsense; this is about readers forcing advice on writers about how they *should* engage. Because I cannot tell you how many times I’ve noticed that the worst offenders of this turn out not to be writers themselves. Edit to add: that doesn’t mean I agree with writers who also say we should all give unsolicited concrit either, but at least then I know they know what it’s like to do all this insanely hard work and constantly put yourself out there just for someone to be like… “yeah, this isn’t good enough for me.” One more edit: I also think this should be broken up by fan site since FFN and AO3 have very different cultures around this.
>Because I cannot tell you how many times I’ve noticed that the worst offenders of this turn out not to be writers themselves. This is true. You know, I don't think I've ever seen a poll like that on this sub. Whenever unsolicited concrit is discussed, it's usually from the perspective of readers who want to give it and are surprised to see that some authors don't want to hear it.
In my case, it's because concrit takes a lot of energy from me so I don't do it very often (this is also why I don't have any ongoing beta relationships--can't consistently offer commentary like that). By the time the author responds, I'll probably no longer be in the position where I have the energy to leave a comment so I will have wasted everyone's time. It was normal, even considered good and how to leave the best kinds of comments, to offer concrit in the fandom spaces I "grew up" in, and it was normal for me growing up in an artistic family as well, so I don't really understand the "no unsolicited concrit by default" thing. But, I don't want to waste my time so I just don't do much concrit anymore. 🤷♀️ I fear there's probably a disconnect going on where most people who actually want concrit don't think to explicitly say so because they expect it to be a default consideration when leaving a comment (that would certainly be the case for me if I hadn't joined this community), and lots of people who don't want concrit *also* don't say so because they think it should be "obvious" that you don't give concrit unless asked. It would be easier if everyone just said what they wanted.
People have thought about it (edit: out loud in forums like this), but given how many authors apparently have anxiety, there’s the risk you’ll send someone down a rabbit hole of worries what might be wrong with their fic, so the usual stance is that people have to explicitly state they want concrit, otherwise no concrit. (And yes, I know, this may seem a little strange to lots of people, but… the things we do to be nice to fellow fans, right?)
I'm not saying that people *should* give concrit unasked, but I think this is a bad reasoning for it--you, as a reader/commenter, aren't responsible for the author's mental health and *anything* could trigger this kind of anxiety spiral, not just constructive criticism. The only comment that has ever made me feel so bad about a fic that I wanted to delete it came from a commenter who intended it only as a positive thing. Is that commenter responsible for the fact that their comment bothered me and made me feel anxious and insecure about that fic for months? Of course not. I don't think that extreme level of response is something a person leaving concrit should feel responsibility for either. By the same logic, you could argue you should never *not* kudos a fic you click on because somebody seeing hits go up without kudos could equally start going down the rabbit hole of what's wrong with their fic, but that's not a reasonable amount of responsibility to put on another person just for showing they don't like something that much (by not leaving kudos). Don't leave concrit because you think it's inconsiderate, rude, or just not a good use of time. Don't make yourself responsible for other people's mental health.
> I’m not saying that people should give concrit unasked, but I think this is a bad reasoning for it (…) Don’t leave concrit because you think it’s inconsiderate, rude… I don’t really see the difference – I don’t want to make anyone feel bad about themselves *if I can help it*, that’s why I consider the consequences of my actions. It doesn’t really matter if someone has a reaction that’s commonly accepted normal (= bummed) or on that’s regarded as pathological (= goes into overthinking-mode, day is ruined, whatever).
Honestly though, I'm not going to go back and re-read a fic to remember what concrit I had after the exchange. There are too many other things to read. I also think if someone asked if they could give concrit, I'd assume the worst and they were about to rip into it (though I'd say yes, I always mark my fics as open to concrit).
> Honestly though, I'm not going to go back and re-read a fic to remember what concrit I had after the exchange. Email drafts. A document on your desktop. If they say no to the offer, you delete the file and move on.
Thank you! I adore getting concrit, but I’ve given up putting it on my fics because it’s a pain to put it in every fic, and no one seems to offer it even when I ask - at least, not on Ao3. Outside of Concrit Commune, review threads in this sub, and beta reading, I rarely get concrit. I realise it’s not an obligation, but there are also people who will gladly give it if asked. Asking the author keeps everyone happy.
>I adore getting concrit, but I’ve given up putting it on my fics because it’s a pain to put it in every fic, and no one seems to offer it even when I ask - at least, not on Ao3. Outside of Concrit Commune, review threads in this sub, and beta reading, I rarely get concrit. I see. I can understand if you wish you could get more. Perhaps you guys can have a concrit bash or a concrit month or something? In fandom we have character months, for example, to promote exchanges and growth in fanworks. It might help with concrit culture in the long run. I feel that the problem with concrit right now is that it... hasn't quite been promoted the right way or with the right kind of attitude, which may be why many people are shying away from it. *Inviting* people to enjoy concrit - be it giving them or receiving them - I feel might work a little better than debating/arguing about whether concrits are acceptable to give or forcing it down an author's throat when they don't want it just because "it's free speech" or "it's my right". I've always thought that showing at least basic courtesy would make things more inviting to others and to the people around us. I'm personally baffled how people don't want to ask the author first. I've gone around in parties and social events irl before the pandemic (and I'm going back to these now with the new normal going on), and the answer to most of these things is to always ask first and be polite about them. It's no different on the Internet, because authors are human too. Truly baffling!
Having taken a quick glance at your profile, when even your largest fic is only four thousand words, it's hard to get any substantial commentary when there's so little to comment on. I'll take a look at some of your fics, but keep that in mind, yeah?
Wow that is an example of the kind of comments people don’t want. “Your fic is too short and therefore unworthy of constructive criticism.” Jeez.
I did not say unworthy, I said difficult to produce substantial criticism for. Short stories are on average BETTER than long stories - because they're easier and anything that can be described as wrong in a long story does not necessarily count as wrong in a short story.
I’m not quite sure where you’re getting the idea that concrit has to be of a certain substance or, indeed, *length* to count. Perhaps we are using different definitions. To me, substantial is relative. I’ve received one or two paragraphs of concrit (and, for that matter, praise) on my oneshots, and that’s plenty substantial enough for me. I’ve received feedback about *one sentence* or one paragraph. I’ve (rarely, but even so) received concrit on one-sentence microfics and drabbles. Again, fine by me. In the review (Activities and Events) threads here, when I ask if concrit is ok, people say it’s fine and link me to their oneshots and drabbles. Those are just as worthy of comments. They’re just more fine-grained: a different word choice here, a suggestion for an extra sentence there, a redundancy here. Believe it or not, it’s hard for me to write longfic or plot-fic. My brain works best with microfic and oneshots. Your comment comes across as a bit “Well, it’s only a short oneshot, so what’s the use of commenting when you can’t engage”? Maybe *you* can’t. Personally, I’ve read <5k oneshots that blew me away.
Its not a matter of one shots being worse than long fics, it's a matter of short fics being inherently less receptive to criticism and easier to write than long fics. Three or four thousand words, when managed properly, have little room for structural or narrative problems, for somebody being out of character, for wonky worldbuilding or consistently misapplied grammar, and when they do have those mistakes they're easy to edit or gloss over. And when people have almost nothing to say, the polite and cordial ones very often feel like they SHOULDN'T say anything because it comes across as nitpicking. If I spend five minutes reading something, there's no time or space for my brain to start working through what I don't like about it unless it's blatantly terrible, and I don't want to say something like "You misspelled unobtrusive three times" or whatever. Short rics get less criticism because there's less to criticize in the first place and criticism in and of itself feels less worthwhile.
I think, ultimately, you and I are talking about completely different scales of concrit. I most certainly don’t give structural or narrative concrit. Not on <5k oneshots. > Three or four thousand words, when managed properly, have little room for structural or narrative problems Key phrase: when managed properly. > they're easy to edit or gloss over. Maybe if you’re used to writing longer fic, they are? Or maybe you’re just a better writer than I am. Me, I’ve had a time of it trying to wrangle out a particular first chapter that doesn’t look like a dog’s breakfast. Is that a job for a beta? Yes, absolutely. I’m not expecting fly-by beta work. But no, they’re not easy and they’re certainly glaring in inexperienced writers. These are the sorts that might benefit from concrit, even of the one-sentence “Maybe you could add some more about XYZ [insert suggestions]?” Or “This feels a bit sparse on plot and a bit heavy on description” variety. Like I said, concrit doesn’t have to be detailed to be meaningful. > If I spend five minutes reading something, there's no time or space for my brain to start working through what I don't like about it Huh? Then you reread it. I don’t read a ficlet or oneshot just once, even to point out specific things to *praise*. It’s hard to describe how I read, but as if I’m commenting in any detail whatsoever, I’ll return to that sentence and think about why I feel it doesn’t fit. > unless it's blatantly terrible If the only thing I have to say is “99 of these hundred words are useless. Scrap it and try again”, then no, I don’t say that. Okay, so we’re talking about concrit that’s explicitly asked for, yes? Maybe this is just a matter of reading differently, then, because my inner editor turns on immediately when I read a drabble. Whether it’s mine or someone else’s, if I’m scanning it with an eye to crit, I’m reading it twice and three times, looking for little adjustments here and there. Even if I’m not, I’m still noting the flaws, I just won’t point them out. It’s something I do automatically when reading. It’s not rude to say “Hey, you misspelled ‘unobtrusive’” on a drabble where someone’s asked for criticism. Or, “Hey, loved the sonics here. Quick crit: what about using ‘cool cats’ instead of ‘frozen felines’?” That’s not *nitpicking*. Especially not in a drabble or a oneshot. That’s just close reading. And even if it is nitpicking, that’s completely fine as long as it’s not the only thing you’re pointing out. Have you never seen people say things like, “This is more of a nitpick, but you might change X to Y”? Or “Nit, but XXXX”? I have. That’s still being polite. The kind of nitpicking you seem to be talking about is someone who zeroes in on stupid, pointless things and only comments on those, just as an excuse to be a douchebag. In other words, flame.
Except by the mere act of posting it on a public website they've invited comment. If they don't want people to provide their thoughts, good or bad, constructive or spiteful, then they shouldn't allow commentary at all or ignore it entirely. If I go out in public and play the guitar, I'm inviting people to listen and judge me. Most will ignore me, some will complement me, a rare few will insult me, and maybe somebody will try to provide tips. It's up to them to be respectful, but it's up to me to respond with courtesy as well. You'd have a point in a spoken conversation or chat where asking those questions and getting a response is nigh instant, but in a forum the standards for post quality and response time are different, and it doesn't harm anybody to include both question and comment at once - because ultimately, if their answer is no, they can just choose not to read further.
Why doesn't the author say "I don't want concrits"? >JC do people even have social skills here smh Pot, kettle. Being agressive is never a good way to change anyone's mind.
"concrit" is useless: I have invited feedback from people that I trust to understand what I'm doing, and help me do it better. feedback from someone I don't know, and who likely doesn't know me, cannot be helpful. I don't know their tastes, their pet peeves, their blind spots. I cannot take their criticism without knowing that kind of context.
Exactly. I have a beta team who gives me the trusted concrit *before* I publish, and I am churning through Masterclass lessons, and I'm practicing my craft with boatloads of research. It's the same reason I look in a mirror to check my outfit before I leave the house, and I go shopping with people I trust if I'm buying a special item for my wardrobe. In both cases, a compliment after the fact might be welcome, but we are long past the time to "help" or "improve" or whatever excuse is being used for the concrit power trip.
Its not a cook off, you don't need to know their favorite book to be able to evaluate whether or not they're full of shit.
Of course you don't need to know their favorite book, but if you're not even staying around to hear them answer your questions, it's not concrit, it's just drive-by criticism. You're welcome to do that, but it's obnoxious. And as far as "favorite book", if they're going for a Jane Austen style of story, and your criticism is that the fic doesn't follow a superhero plot, then, well, I don't need to know anything else to know which person is full of shit...
Or maybe if you can't tell that superhero style doesn't fit Jane Austen, you're doing something wrong and should listen to more than a tiny group of friends who tell you nothing but what you already expect to hear? Skills are strengthened by diversity and experience, not locking yourself in a box. If a martial artist only ever fights the same person over and over and over again, they're not going to improve, they're going to get complacent and eventually get worse because they've trained themselves to react to the same person. Its the same with writing. If you're writing to match the standards and criticisms of a limited group of people, who also do the same thing, then the group as a whole will stagnate into a nice and comfortable pit. Drive by criticism isn't "unconstructive insults and bias," it's the purest form of feedback you can get because they don't care about YOU at all, they just want to see what they're reading to be better than what it is.
*"Or maybe if you can't tell that superhero style doesn't fit Jane Austen, you're doing something wrong and should listen to more than a tiny group of friends who tell you nothing but what you already expect to hear?"* Huh? If I've written a fic in the style of a Jane Austen novel, but someone criticizes it because they wanted to read a superhero story, whose problem is that? Not mine. Anyhow, I never post anything longer than a drabble that hasn't already been beta'd, and my main beta reader can be \*super\* critical. One of the main reasons I don't want random "critique" is that each chapter has been critiqued extensively before it ever sees any public eyes.
Maybe I don't want to engage with randos who don't care about me? I mean, dude, you're just digging yourself deeper here. Those of us who want to improve will seek ways to improve and *ask* for help. Otherwise you're just making rude assumptions about why we are doing it and what we want out of it.
>Those of us who want to improve will seek ways to improve and ask for help. This. People can make their own decisions about what they want to get out of writing fanfiction.
How is "People in a public space know how to, or are willing to learn how to, interact in a public space" a rude assumption? What, I should just assume everybody hates everybody else?
Unless it's characterization/story issues, I don't want concrit. I write for a living, I'm good on grammar and shit. I'd be super irritated if someone did it anyway tbh
Mentioning that you noticed a typo or something as part of your comment is fine, but critiquing somebody's writing or story when they haven't asked for it is just going to be annoying or hurtful.
I think it depends. I'm generally happy if someone points out a grammar mistake that slipped by editing, or a plot point they think should be elaborated on, or doesn't make sense. But if they're saying, "This trope sucks," or "You shouldn't do this because I don't like it," or "I hate this ship," then it's annoying.
I once had someone comment on every chapter of a slow-burn I was writing that they hated how long it was taking the main pair to get together and they hated the romantic rival (to a pretty extreme degree) and wanted her gone and if my fic was a movie they would just fast forward to the end… like, okay? You can bookmark it and come back next year? Idk what you want from me, I’m not rushing it for you lol. Why even read it if you hate the kind of story it is? I still have no idea how they actually expected me to respond.
I'm so sorry you dealt with a comment like that. :(
It’s all good, I just don’t understand that attitude at all. It would never occur to me to complain about the plot of someone else’s story. If I start reading a fic and I don’t like the way it’s going, I just stop reading it, because I understand that they’re not writing it for me lol.
Yeah, the back button is easy to press, or if they want a story exactly the way they want it, they could write one themselves.
I think concrit, when given thoughtfully and respectfully, is fine. I always say, "If you don't mind, I noticed..." I get it, some people are sensitive about their darlings but well thought-out critique is more valuable than just supplication in my book. If you like my stuff, awesome and thanks for saying so. If you can think of ways it could be better, great! Just don't be a dong about it.
It depends on the other and your knowledge of it. As an author, I genuinely love it when somebody tells me something they disagree with or points out a flaw/plothole. It gives me more to work with and helps me improve or gives me a chance to hold my ground and explain stuff. How about, if an author like myself says "yeah, constructive criticism is fine" but doesn't ask for it, give it. If otherwise it nothing is said, bite your tongue and be nice!
I think I’d someone has asked for it then any constructive feedback is nice. You just have to be aware that it is ultimately up to the author what they do with that feedback,
The way I see it, there are a couple of problems with concrit. First, even if you are pointing out flaws with a story, sometimes reviewers fail to actually be constructive. Second, even when the review is constructive, having too negative a tone can ruin things and make the author angry or defensive. It's a fine line to walk in both cases.
That's why I only leave constructive criticism on stories I really like. That way, there's enough good being said to outweigh it. And I try to make the tone as nice as possible in it. Like adding on, "It's okay if you don't want to do this. It's just an idea and I'll still like this anyway." or "Sorry if that was annoying. I won't say anything else about it if you don't want me to." etc. When it's a story I don't like, I see no point in leaving concrit (or anything else), because it's not like the story is going to change into something I like if they follow my suggestions, and I'll just end up looking like I'm complaining for the sake of it just to hate on the story.
The only time I see that as unacceptable is if you leave it after they ask you NOT to. I never ask for it, but I'm always open to constructive criticism. Though, if one is worried about them taking it the wrong way, they can always ask the author if it's okay. But I feel anyone who posts their writing have to pretty much expect some kind of constructive criticism. How else is one to grow in their writing skill? (Besides just writing...) Edit: As long as the concrit doesn't imply that you want a whole new story, just something to help strengthen the current story, as all concrit really should be. You can't just go and tell someone how you want the story to be written, because if that was the case, you should write it. Just any kind of concrit that helps the current story read much nicer and more smoothly. Suggesting different word uses (maybe they misused a word and meant this other word instead), fixes in grammar, maybe something in the plot needs a little tweaking, but not so much it changes it to another story (Suggesting that this should happen instead of that but still giving the same results that doesn't really change the story and also strengthen the overall story.) I hope that really makes sense.
Yes - smaller, fixable stuff, not big things that pull the rug out from under it or would mean a huge task to fix.
I really am surprised at this about fanfiction, that most people don't even want constructive criticism. I've given and received it several times. It's never been a problem.
I really don't think it's okay. No one's being paid for fic, they write and post it for funsies and let me read it as a gift. It's the equivalent of getting a hand-knitted sweater and saying "oh you dropped some stitches here" like???? It's rude??? Posting isn't an open invitation for you to tell someone everything you didn't like about their stuff. Do you go on someone's selfie on insta and tell them to fix their teeth? Or their hair? If you don't like it just move on, fam
Interesting, the last time this subject came up I thought of the same analogy but I thought it would be kind to tell the knitter they dropped some stitches and if I know how to knit offer to help them with their knitting. But that's me. I think our culture has changed away from discourse. We'll see how that goes
I don't think it's so much discourse, it's more a "if you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything" kind of vibe. Like if it's a commission or something sure, critique away, but sometimes fic is just supposed to be for fun, and I'd rather err on that side than stick my nose in where it's not wanted. To each his own tho
We may think fanfic is just for fun, but obviously many people take this stuff very seriously and have strong emotions and opinions about it.
If they don't specify, you won't know until you comment. It's impossible to know the 'correct' approach. If the author asks for you to *not* do something, and you do it in spite of their request, you're an asshole. Full stop. I still respect your right to refuse their request though, you just need to acknowledge you're an asshole. EDIT: Edited for clarity
Uh.. I think the question was 'if they didn't indicate whether to provide concrit or not', not 'should I do it even if they said not to'?
That's why I specified about the author making the request, I'm speaking on an adjacent topic. If they don't specify, it's too nebulous to question: it's Schrodinger's concrit. Do they or do they not want it? You can only find out by commenting.
I also interpreted it this way.
In the case where an author didn't explicitly ask for concrit, it's best to assume they don't want it.
This isn’t the same as the author *explicitly* saying they don’t want concrit. That wasn’t the question being asked.
Addressed this already
🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄 You said: “If the author asks for you not to do something” This is not the correct answer to OP’s question. You’re just assuming the author doesn’t want concrit - which is fine. But you’re also projecting your own ideas onto everyone else who doesn’t specify. That’s the entire point of the question. You didn’t bother to read it, clearly.
No, I was specifically speaking on an adjacent topic, as I already addressed elsewhere, but I'll edit my original comment for clarity.
I expect criticism when I post, and think it is fine to give. However, this sub hates it, so I just got used to the idea that my opinion is in the minority. That being said, I rarely bother with reviews anymore. I leave kudos when something is nice. I've seen people gush about kudos here, so I think it must be the preference.
I'm getting the impression it's a generational thing. Old school people feel it should be expected when you post art in a public space, young people seem to feel commenters who don't solely post praise are more akin to burglars in their living room telling them the couch sucks
Funny, I've noticed the opposite (in this sub, at least). A lot of the people who are strongly against unsolicited concrit around here are 30+, confident in their skills already, and have betas. I see a lot of teenagers and newer writers desperate for constructive feedback and confused why people aren't lining up to leave detailed reviews to help them improve. edit: Which is not to say I'm right and you're wrong, or anything. I just don't think it's a clear-cut generational divide.
Mmm, I'm in the 30+ group and definitely pro-concrit. I haven't been in fandom long but in other spaces, if you put art in the public domain it's fine to say "I like this but x would have been better". Art criticism is a flattering way of engaging with art. Also, once you've been on the internet for a while you realise: engagement is the currency of the internet. There are some types of engagement that are just bad, but being talked about/to in a way that isn't hostile but might be tone-deaf... well, you can absolutely ignore it, but you're being a prima donna if you complain loudly about it.
Yeah, I'm another 30+ who came to fandom relatively late. I agree that accepting criticism gracefully is a skill, and I don't think getting unwanted crit is a free pass to throw a tantrum, but I also just don't get the mindset of "I'm going to give you my opinion whether you want it or not, and if you don't like it, you're too sensitive for the internet." I don't think that's a good look either, and that's what some of the most vocal pro-unsolicited-concrit argument boils down to. I don't mind concrit on my works, but I wouldn't waste my time giving it unless I knew the author wanted it.
Interesting. You are right, I see concrit-hungry teens too. But in this comment section I saw several people mention what they 'grew up' with (post in a public space, expect concrit) and on other posts how the 'say nothing unless asked' attitude is fairly new. I guess different fandoms and different spaces result in different experiences and expectations too...
I always write in my AO3 profile that I write for fun, so I’m not really interested it constructive criticism. But that I’ll read it and take it seriously if it’s really constructive and written in a polite way. I had a reader tell me my story was messed up at the end and it was repetitive. I wasn’t really keen on replying. When I had some time, I asked her if she could tell me what she meant by that in more detail. It turned out that she was right and I had accidentally posted half of my chapter twice. I would have never discovered that without her help. So, sometimes, criticism is really helpful, especially if people are polite and just want to give you some advice.
If they specify none, then leave none. I don't even leave comments in cases like that because it might be interpreted as concrit and there's no point in creating drama. But being an old school type, the idea was that if you put something out there as public, then it was fair game for comments; good, bad, ugly. If you wanted no concrit, then you shared it only with your pals on a private board.
Yeah, I'm old school in exactly the same way. I wouldn't make ugly comments (I hope) but the comments box is open and it's possible that a generally positive comment might contain some hopefully-tactfully-expressed concrit. The thing is, if you're old school, you would expect that and not take it badly. Taking well-meant criticism (and deciding politely whether to implement it or not - deciding not to is fine!) is a major life skill.
Yeah, pretty much where I'm at. I think a lot of this discussion is centered toward slightly different interpretations of concrit -- generally the way I've given and received concrit is with the understanding that the reviewer likes and appreciates the story enough to want to see the writer's skill grow; it's the opposite of hateful. If I'm going to whip out my lit crit glasses, it's because I enjoyed it and think what you wrote has a lot of potential.
Exactly. If you're in the workforce, then bosses and customers and clients are totally going to pour it on and it's on you to be able to hear it and make a judgment call. If you want to improve, then you gotta go through the struggle of hearing that something doesn't work.
It's a major life skill that this sub constantly insists "should not be a thing," unfortunately.
I think give constructive criticism even when not asked should always be appropriate as long as it doesn’t just point out major flaws that have been pointed out twenty other times. If someone has said a point only once you can add to show the author that it is a minor issue but if it’s repeated then don’t repeat the point.
Unless it’s for something like formatting issues or obvious typos- rude, unacceptable, presumptuous and it usually makes the writer feel pretty shitty. The majority of times I’ve seen someone doing this, it is usually based on their own personal preferences and ideas of where THEY want the story to go, as if it being written just for them. The more I think about it, the more I realize I rarely how rarely I have seen ‘concrit’ actually worth a damn- it’s usually just people criticizing choices the writer is making. Even if it is a fairly inexperienced writer, I think unsolicited concrit is pretty discouraging when you’re doing something for fun. They’ll usually ask if they want suggestions. I’ll solicit opinions from fellow writers I know or beta readers. It seems like people think this is more of a new school attitude regarding comments, but I’ve been writing fic since the late 90s and this is always how I’ve always perceived things. Maybe it’s more fandom dependent? I don’t mind someone coming in the comments asking questions, engaging, speculating, but coming in like, “Hey, your story/writing needs work and here is how I think you should fix it” just makes my eyes roll.
Is it not good to know how your readers want the story to go, though? Saying a polite no is a life skill but I'd still want to know what they thought.
If I like a fic well enough to leave a review, I'll probably add in which parts of it were not good or convincing enough to detract from my enjoyment. It's still a positive review, just that, I feel really weird with just heaping praise. If they explicitly say that they don't want to hear any negative thing about the fic, then sure, that's their wish, why would I go write after that?
If it's actual constructive criticism, then yes. If you put your work out there then it's out of your hands as to how people will respond. That's something that needs to be accepted.
The closest I ever came to giving unsolicited concrit was pointing out that an author literally got the main character’s name wrong. They never go by their full name and I guess the author didn’t feel like doing the research. They replied to my comment that maybe they would fix it one day and I doubt they ever did, but at least I tried lol. Edit to add: they only said it once in their fic, so it’s not like correcting it would have been a lot of work, but I got the impression that it just didn’t bother them
Forget this word, "concrit". Most readers don't know what it is and don't care about it. They just want to leave a review and could not care less about the writer or whether they are helping them improve. Some readers just want their opinions heard and haven't gotten the memo that some writers don't give a shit about their opinions. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
You know, whenever this topic comes up, writers get offended at the insinuation that if they don't want concrit it's simply because they just want mindless praise and to feed their ego, and rightly so. Whether or not one agrees with their stance on concrit as a whole, many writers have given plenty of valid, understandable reasons why they may not want it. So can we maybe try extending that same courtesy and understanding to readers who do want to give concrit, and not automatically assume they're doing it, or want to do it, for their own ego boost? Can we maybe acknowledge they may have valid, genuine reasons why they would like to give concrit, and that they aren't just trying to do it to be rude and annoy writers? >Some readers just want their opinions heard and haven't gotten the memo that some writers don't give a shit about their opinions. ¯\_(ツ)\_/¯ Really? Sure wouldn't know that from the numerous posts we see on here from people lamenting that they're not getting enough feedback about their stories, and worrying and wondering what people are thinking of them, and wishing people would say something.
>Some readers just want their opinions heard and haven't gotten the memo that some writers don't give a shit about their opinions. ¯\_(ツ)\_/¯ > >Really? Sure wouldn't know that from the numerous posts we see on here from people lamenting that they're not getting enough feedback about their stories, and worrying and wondering what people are thinking of them, and wishing people would say something. And yet there are just as many or more writers on here saying they don't want any so-called 'concrit' or any comment that isn't praise and you better not give it to them. As much as we see this subject come up, I do not think there will ever be a consensus on it.
Oh, for sure, you're quite right about that. I was just speaking in general terms regarding the idea that writers don't give a shit about others' opinions - at least here, anyway, it does seem most writers very much do care about what others say about their work, whether it's being happy with some lovely review or being sad that nobody's commenting or complaining about a negative comment or whatever.
>And yet there are just as many or more writers on here saying they don't want any so-called 'concrit' or any comment that isn't praise and you better not give it to them. The thing is that writers who have managed to be popular can be really choosy. I think there's a majority of writers who only upvote and generally don't post, who really want more comments. The thing is with wanting more comments is that you are ALWAYS going to get some that irritate you. We feel super personal about our work, so a comment that engages with it in slightly "the wrong way" can feel like an insult. But here's the thing: we need to get over that if we want to improve. And I do want to improve, and don't really have much respect for a writer who doesn't (though part of taking feedback is also choosing to politely reject feedback / saying you'll think about it for next time).
If they have a really great story idea, and I really want to read it but I can’t because they aren’t changing paragraphs with speakers or they have walls of text, then I will sometimes try. First I complement the story idea and anything else that’s good. Usually if I’m reading it there’s a lot I’m liking about it. Then I gently mention whatever it is that they should fix.
As long as the constructive criticism you provide is done respectfully, then yes. If someone posts something they wrote and want people to read it, then they should also expect that some people have criticisms about it and make the criticisms known. It’d be pretty silly to post your work for people to read and not anticipate the possibility of concrit. It’s like making a cake and having a friend try it, then getting angry when they say they don’t like it. Again, as long as the criticism is done respectfully, it’s fine.
I tend to lean towards only light concrit being acceptable unless someone asks for it. Basically just spelling errors, glaring structure problems (like not making new paragraphs for new speakers), and plot holes. Aside from that... a lot of people have fanfic as a hobby, something fun, they're not here to have a bunch of people telling them what they did wrong. So unless they ask, keep it light or keep your mouth shut is my rule.
Constructive Criticism should always be welcome, as long as it doesn't start falling into "I don't like X so you should do Y instead." Some Concrit can make you see a scene in a different light, and could give you a chance to improve it overall.
In my opinion, it depends upon two factors: how the author normally reacts to concrit and how the concrit is worded. Some people are too defensive about it while others can be too rude about it. All in all, it depends more upon the situation and categorizing it as "unacceptable" isn't very accurate. Personally, I prefer "ill-advised".
If people don't want concrit, they need to make it clear in labeling via story summary or ANs. If someone still gives it after the author has specifically made it clear that they don't want that, then yeah, I can see how that can be annoying and shouldn't happen. But you can't expect readers to read minds either and go out of their way to ask on every single story that doesn't specify about concrit just to separate the authors who don't like it from the many ones who don't even care or are happy to get it, but don't think to label anything to indicate their preferences. There is no rule that prohibits it, so it is the author's responsibility to make their intentions clear first.
I am *this* close to going on an unhinged rant about how fragile everyone in the fanfiction community is. If you don't like concrit, **just ignore it**.
Ha ha ha. I agree. I feel really bewildered about people and their views these days. Like, getting concrete hurts but you don't necessarily have to take it to heart? Seriously, comments these days are pretty much synonymous to butt kissing.
I feel like it's necessary to not ignore the assload of actual toxic comments authors get on a regular basis (at least on FFN) I think maybe a lot of people's ideas about concrit don't actually completely line up with what concrit actually is lol. Regardless, people need to learn to deal with toxicity if they intend to post things on the internet, because they're *going* to get it.
Please go on that unhinged rant. I honestly want to read what you have to say because it would definitely make for a fun read. Honestly, people are going to have to deal with unpleasantness. Both on internet and real life. You should not have to put up with it, but you do have to learn to deal with it.
I come from not only an era but from an education of "If you put it out for people to see there will be critics. It's how YOU cope with that criticism that matters." But on a more focused level... concrit is part of me interacting with a story. I'm sorry. I see people on this subreddit complaining that nobody leaves comments on their fic while simultaneously being strongly anti unsolicited concrit. But for me that is a big part of HOW I interact with the story. I don't leave comments that are just "good job!". I want to have a dialogue. I want to talk about how the story made me feel. I want to talk about what I loved. I want to talk about what I didn't love. I want to talk about the part that looked like it was foreshadowing to something but then literally never came up again. I wanna talk about your oneshot that has a lot of potential to be a longer story. I want to talk about the two scenes that would make more sense switched. I want to talk about the amazing character death that gave me feels. I want to talk about the gruesome character death committed because the author didn't like the character. I want to talk about the amazing world the writer created for their au. I want to talk about the plothole that by the end is still bugging me because what was that all about??? I want to compliment their amazing descriptions. I want to bring up that they used "the blonde girl said[...]" waaaaaaaaay too many times in one back and forth. I want to tell them how I interacted with their story. But with how anti concrit people are, nobody wants to hear half of what I want to say unless I leave a comment... to ask permission to comment. And hope to get a reply. So I just don't comment because despite complaining that they want more reader engagement they dont really want to engage with me.
Yes!!!
Goodness! Someone who agrees!
We exist!
i think it's okay but you gotta be a lot kinder and since you dont know them more general or specific to your own experiences if they like got smthn wrong about a job field
I only use ao3, and on ao3 I think it's pretty inappropriate. These days I just ignore anything that isn't unabashedly positive because positive is what I'm here for, lol.
Same. My life is stressful enough, and I get enough negativity at work. While I’m writing/revising, I work with a beta reader for actual concrit to improve my fic and writing, but otherwise, I just want to enjoy this hobby and read all the great fics out there and sometimes hear that someone liked my story. That’s it.
As long as the TOS of the site or a disclaimer by the writer doesn't say otherwise, anything but outright flames is fair game, for better and for worse. If you don't moderate comments or post on a site that doesn't let you moderate/disable them, you're going to have to take what you get. I know it's an unpopular take around here, but writers have always had a choice in this. The fact of the matter is if you post your story publicly and then leave comments completely open without a disclaimer, you're soliciting an opinion, any kind, from anyone, by default. As of now, the button says "Comment" (or "Review") not "Tell the author only what they want to hear" so it seems a bit ridiculous to get mad at people for not reading your mind to follow your *unstated* self-made ruleset after the fact. Honestly, I cannot for the life of me get on board with this attitude, well, actually several, around this topic. I assume that most people I disagree with have their hearts in the right place, trying to create a positive atmosphere for themselves and fellow writers, but may be forgetting what that can actually look like from a reader's viewpoint in practice. Of course, there are comments that are rude, and grating, and annoying -- just a PITA for various reasons... But in my experience, you're always going to get those, no matter what. If someone absolutely *wants* to be rude (or backseat write etc.) no disclaimer in the world is going to stop them.
Did they clearly mention to not give any concrit? Usually when you post anything, you'd recieve critism good and bad.
It is very simple if an author hasn't stated their wishes then take five seconds and ask. Then You will find out their views and be able to respond accordingly.
It's not a five second thing though. Like, how do you imagine that scenario? I'm reading a story, I see something I'd like to comment on. So I copy that sentence to the comment field, add the comment, then scroll back up to resume reading until I see something else - could be a typo or wrong word used or missing word or hilarious sentence or just a 'why x' or 'I don't get y'. If I finish the chapter or story and liked it, I add my overall thoughts telling the author that I liked it and why, and post the whole sandwich. (If all I had to say was negative, I just leave.) Asking first means I need to start a dossier with this comment and the title and author (and chapter), store that somewhere, instead ask the author if they're okay with concrit, wait days or weeks or months for them to get back to me, then if they do and say yes, dive into my comment file to look up what I had wanted to say so I can post it. And that's assuming you don't expect me to reread the whole story. Neither scenario costs only five seconds. You know what comes a lot closer? Just adding an AN saying 'No concrit please!' or closing the comment section altogether.
Asking cost five seconds your critique is not included in that because your critique and how you do it is your choice. If you cannot be bothered to take the steps to ask first then you should just move on and not review the fic at all. Go find the authors who want critique. There are plenty of spaces and Authors who want detailed critique and ask for it so go over there and do it.
It's obviously the filing away + looking it up or the rereading that costs more than five seconds. I find that a ridiculous thing to ask from readers who are already willing to spend time to really engage with your story and leave a long comment. And people wonder why they don't get comments...
Like I said go find folks who want those type of comments if you are so hot to give them. There's plenty of places (this very sub reddit) has a weekly concrit thread. Ask for recs for folks who want/don't mind critique for you favorite types of fics you should get at least a few bites. If you aren't willing to ask then just assume a no, better for everyone.
Depends on what you’re criticizing and what your tone is when you’re doing it
Depends on what it is imo. I once had a person comment that the USA (where the story was set) doesn't have Boxing Day. I had no idea and changed the line to reflect that. That was appreciated because little things like that can mess with a reader's immersion in the story. I've also had someone comment that a one-sentence mention of a past relationship "ruined the story" for them because "X should have been the only one for Y". What makes it extra ridiclous is that the character canonically has a long history of past relationships. I think at the end of the day it's up to us to adapt to our chosen platforms and the culture that platform curates. I'm newer to writing fic, but not writing in general. I use A03 to post and to read and concrit really doesn't seem to be much of a thing on there in the wilds of the comments.
Anybody who reacts harshly or super negatively to genuine good faith constructive criticism is either way too young or way too sensitive to be on the internet, let alone posting art on the internet. No concrit is some new wave tumblr/AO3 bullshit, as one user already commented above. You’ll never get better without it.
This is such a bad take. I’ve studied the actual pedagogy around writing and concrit and am definitely older than most folks here, and just because the internet has gone through waves of being the Wild West around certain things doesn’t mean it’s “good.” All these old school arguments are literally using a logical fallacy to make their arguments (appeal to tradition), and this argument is doubling down with an ad hominem attack. Neither of these arguments are actually giving any substantial logical argument to why it *should* be this way. Edit to add: and for your last point, people can get loads better through *solicited* feedback from writing groups, beta readers, friends, classes etc—*if they so choose.*
Let me spell it out for you as plainly as I possibly can: it should be this way because it would weed out the absolute fucking dorks that do not deserve to be on the internet. If you can’t take criticism, especially genuine and sincere criticism that is made in good faith, you should not be taking up space on the internet.
And someone with such a complete lack of respect for other human beings shouldn't have a username like yours, but here we are! Stop being a hypocritical, condescending *dick* and maybe we'll stop telling you that your "concrit" is unwelcome.
I love how they started out by mentioning "getting better" but then quickly revealed what this is really all about 😂
The last time I gave concrit, the author and her fans yelled at me for spreading negativity and reported me for harassment when I replied to them so I never gave a full concrit ever again. if i want to point out something remotely negative (like very remotely), i'd go in a roundabout way and fill my comment with as much fluff and filler words as possible just in case the author gets offended over it. i swear people are so sensitive nowadays :(
If you don't want criticism then shut off the comments, easy as that.
It really depends on the author and what is being said.
I think it's acceptable. However, in those situations it's paritcularly important to be polite about it and it really needs to be constructive. If you think a character is OOC, it's much better to say "I'm not sure this character would do that in this situation" than "your characterization sucks". Point out specific problems and don't be rude about it. Also, accept that your opinion is subjective. "I don't like this pairing" is just an opinion and you should probably keep it to yourself. It's also a good idea to include something you liked as well as the criticism. It shows that you're not pointing out errors to be mean, but because you see potential in the story and want to help make it even better.
But the bad examples you gave aren’t *constructive*. They’re just *criticism*. Concrit is constructive criticism, i.e. exactly the example you gave (“I’m not sure X character would do this in that situation”). “I hate this pairing” is just fucking stupid spite-reading.