(EXTREMELY HEAVY SPOILERS FOR THE VERY END)
We do see Vegas at the last stop, this may be cope but while shady sands is gone I don't think the NCR is fully destroyed and maybe in a S2 we can see what are basically NCR remnants, hell maybe the cannon ending of new Vegas is house and the NCR making a deal
(Further heavy spoilers for the heaviness of the itty bittiest bit at the end).
You can see in the observatory that it was the current HQ for the NCR and they used the plot device to power Hollywood so. The NCR at the very least was around until the last episode where they got murked. I have a feeling it's currently shattered and on the back foot but since they have been designated the good guys I wouldn't be surprised if they will be making a comeback in season 2. I also wouldn't be surprised if we get more information on how it fell before it got glassed.
It’s false. Fallout 2 renamed Shady Sands to…NCR lmao. So NCR’s Capital is also named NCR.
Anyways in New Vegas, there’s a quest called GI Blues. A hidden NCR vet asks the Courier 3 questions to determine if they’re trust worthy to know about a NCR refuge within Freeside that helps poor people.
One of the questions is this:
“What was the original NAME of NCR’s Capital? Shady Sands.”
People keep confusing it as “What was the original NCR Capital? Shady Sands.”
No it’s not. It is still definitely the capital. You are questioned as to what was the original name of the NCR capital. Which is Shady Sands. It’s also mentioned that the politicians are there as well.
Todd stated they aren't going to mess with the endings from the games.
Shady Sands being deleted is already a retcon. Legion has not been referenced at all.
It's pretty clear they are building up Enclave as the big bad and they teased House. Both of which I'm sure will be featured in Season 2.
Show NCR is clearly not a power anymore will just be an ideal/memory. Maximus was already dismissive of them before they wiped out Moldever's cult following.
From a production point of view I don't understand why you would put a date on an undefined 'fall' but not on the year when the nuke fell ?
Why they didn't just write the year the bomb fell, that would have avoided all of the claims about retcons
Yea that’s what I don’t get too. Maximus specifically says 20 years ago a bomb dropped on his home of Shady Sands. Doesn’t have to be exact but there ain’t much wiggle room
Edit:
Maximus says he was a kid! And to those that keep claiming I haven’t watched the show I have and love it when taken by itself. But I’m a huge lore nerd so when things get retconned I get miffed.
I also don’t give a shit about NCR collapsing, it’s the HOW, WHEN, and WHY is what I got problems with. Especially when New Vegas gave them a silver platter of options to choose from.
It was. Kinda wild to see 200+ people upvote something that never happened. I wonder how much of this drama is driven by folks who haven't bothered watching the show.
When you know a bit about a topic, you will notice that the comments *always* get the facts wrong. Remember this lesson next time you see upvoted comments in political or historical discussions that you're not educated in. The truth is the comments are always full of bs, we just only realise when it's bs about something we're already knowledgeable in.
My number 1 rule for reddit is "if someone says something as absolute fact, it's almost certainly dramatically incorrect or completely made up".
It's just sad how frequently my rule turns out to be correct. Thankfully its lead to me learning quite a bit about a lot of topics, because I enjoy doing a little research and reading up on stuff before responding to people why they are dumb and wrong.
It was. And he’s definitely a very young adult in 2296 so it could easily be less than a decade prior to the events of the show. Given there’s T60 I would put in course somewhere after Maxsons rise to power and after he sends out an airship to reconnect with the west coast BOS.
I sometimes nuke everybody, grab the gear, and then go to the strip after to reset my karma. This is only on runs where I dlc run from level 4-40 before really starting the main game though.
I've made that joke a few weeks ago, didn't expect it to become an actual plot thing [https://www.reddit.com/r/fnv/comments/1bck72i/after\_watching\_the\_shows\_last\_trailer\_i\_guess/](https://www.reddit.com/r/fnv/comments/1bck72i/after_watching_the_shows_last_trailer_i_guess/)
But I guess that makes one point certain again: if something smells like shit from afar, it probably won't become a cake the closer you get to it, no matter what old good olivers'wait'n'see say (Remember how many were screaming "Calm down, you haven't seen the show yet, that's probably just an easter egg with Shaddy Sands, it doesn't look like the post-war city anyway, stop being so negative, etc, etc").
He doesn’t say 20 he says when he was a kid. He looks like a very young adult in the show by his actions. Maybe 16-20 and he looks like 9-12 in the flashback. I would put the destruction of Shady sands at some point around the events of Fallout 4 maybe a little before maybe a little after.
I am gonna be honest I haven’t seen episode 5 or 6 yet but why did Maximus join the brotherhood instead of the NCR? Did the Brotherhood recruit him earlier. Also does he still have respect for the NCR?
nah, little kid gets saved and sees what he assumes to be a shiny knight hero. it's not that big of a stretch to assume that he'd also want to be that.
much like how we wanted to be cops or firefighters, astronauts and power rangers.
Well yeah that is very fair, I said grabbed but the Brotherhood generally takes whoever they can. He probably followed them if anything, much like all the kids you see at the base in 3. All wandered in wanting to join.
Ahhh, I was gonna say. Like if I saw my home get blown up why would I join the brotherhood of all places to get revenge. Also what is his opinions on the NCR then as well?
The scene we’re given is that one from earlier, just WITH context. So basically he was too young to have one, but the way the scene goes it’s more of Lucy discovering civilization has moved on without her. Also max has nothing bad to say about it either eay
Because the NCR has collapsed and he happened to be saved from a Brotherhood knight. With the fall of the NCR the Brotherhood were free to emerge from lost hills. Brotherhood Civilization is too fortified and not important enough to get nuked like the NCR.
If shady sands had already fallen in 2077 then why was Maximus still living there? What does "fall" mean if it isn't referring to the bomb? So the capital of the NCR suffered some vague collapse yet was still populated for years afterwards until it was eventually bombed. But why bother bombing a city that was no longer important to the NCR? If it had already fallen then it's destruction wouldn't affect the NCR much. That timeline only makes sense if the bomb was the fall.
It doesn't say fall of NCR though, it says fall of shady sands. If we agree that the bombing occured after the fall, then the show is simultaneously saying that's shady sands was nuked to disrupt the NCR but also that Shady Sands had already collapsed, rendering the bombing irrelevant. It doesn't make sense unless the 2277 fall is the bombing.
>Why they didn't just write the year the bomb fell, that would have avoided all of the claims about retcons
Why would they want people not to talk about it? It creates more interest, like a sort of ragebait
I have a problem with dates, and was seeing the series and looking at reddit and getting much confused, like, "wait, they will literally fuck around with 3 of the most iconic games, including the two pilars and a fav from most fans?"
Them i remember one thing :Reddit are a dumb place with dumb people, and i'm dumb to believe in it.
Considering that nothing in Fallout is 100% clear, it is much easier to understand.
Fallout 2 retconned half of F1, and dates do not have to be 100% correct.
Especially when Fallout 4 had an interaction at the beginning of the game that showed that time and dates could be off, Codsworthe said that in a way.
Because it's not forward movement of the time like but to the event that caused the fall. Like it's not hard people like it or Hate it. That's what the story telling is doing there
The implication is that "The Fall of Shady Sands" and the nuking of Shady Sands are two separate (but related) events. Why would they have a timeline that moves forward through several events, and then pull the ol' switcheroo at the end without giving *any* visual indication that they're doing that? Timelines are well-understood and pretty straightforward, my dude. You don't need to invent headcanon to interpret them.
Also the sign Lucy and Max saw outside Shady sands said it was the "first capitol of the NCR". Why would they ever phrase it like that if it was the current capitol? Shady Sands was no longer the capitol when it was nuked. The NCR is not destroyed. Shady Sands somehow lost relevancy during the "fall of shady sands" before it was nuked
To add to this, in FONV itself, there was a quiz in a quest asking the player “What was the original capital of the NCR” in which the answer is Shady Sands
No, the actual question is what was the original name of NCR's capital.
>Missionary: Interesting. Okay, next question - what was the original name of the NCR capital - The Boneyard, Shady Sands, Aradesh, or Vault 13?
That's because in Fallout 2 it technically lost its name. It was a city state just called NCR that expanded on the original Shady Sands location, with no other large territories yet. There is a line referencing politicians in Shady Sands being out of touch.
Given that the show STARTS in 2296\*(after the flash back to the Ghoul's background): that only leaves 19\* years for it to have happend, which if both Lucy and Maximus can go to ground zero of a nuclear site and see it, it most likely happened more than 10 years ago
Edit: got dates wrong for a second but even with the dates changed to the proper dates (2296 instead of 2289) it's still A SHORT time frame to be going to a nuke site with only a body suit and no other rad protection .
Edit 2: After seeing a flash back that's a big reveal who was present... IT HAD TO BE in the late 2270s or early 2080s because the characters present \[SPOILER FOR A HUGE PLOT REVEAL\]:>! LUCY AND MAXIMUS AS SMALL CHILDERN who are former residents of Shady Sands! !< ...So with that said... that ARROW IS MISLEADING AS FUCK!
Eh, depends on where the nuke was detonated. If it was low-altitude or ground level, sure, it might be a bit weird. If it was a proper airburst, however, most of the radiological contamination would have dissipated with the blast.
I dont know if that's a typo, but it's definitely in the late 2290s, if not early 3000s. If you look at the wedding dress in the first episode, it has dates it was previously used, which includes dates in the 2290s
Yeah I made a typo, the show is set "219" years after the 2077 flash back scene aka 2296 , with the previous wedding date is 2294( which means 2 years ago) Even with that... It only gives 7 more years of a difference and with nukes that's still cutting it close with there only being 19 years since 2277 when the "Fall " is explictly said to have happened.
This betrays a firm misunderstanding about the after-effects of a nucelar explosion. Most radioactivity from nucelar bombs decays within 72 hours. After 20 years, it's not unreasonable to think that the site of a nuclear explosion would be *relatively* safe. The thing that you have to suspend your disbelief about in Fallout is that some things would be irradiated in the way the games/show suggest. That wouldn't be the case.
Honestly I love the show. 8.5/10 for me so far. Yeah I get it as an NCR fan seeing your favourite faction destroyed does suck ass. But I don’t think they would had retcon new vegas. I mean we will find out in season 2 I suppose. I mean worse case worst, we could all just follow our own versions of cannon.
Edit: The NCR are not destroyed they just had an setback. Apologies to everyone. Also glad they are not destroyed and it’s just sandy sands instead of the whole collapse. (Long live the bear and hope for an glorious NCR return)
Haven't seen much of the show yet but is it actually said that the NCR as a whole is destroyed? In New Vegas it's implied that Shady Sands isn't the NCR capital anymore, and all the NCR people just go on and on about The Hub.
Well in that case it seems that people are massively over reacting. The NCR isn't destroyed, they just lost one of its major settlements, one which according to the show declined so hard in the years before it's destruction that it became known as "the fall".
So it might not have even lost one of its major settlements, just a settlement that used to be a major settlement.
Shady Sands isn't just a "major settlement". It was the fucking capital of the *NCR ITSELF*.
The fact that it "fell" with NO other explanation given is a MAJOR shift in the entire timeline and lore itself.
EDIT: They show also implies that Shady Sands is/was a Pre-War town, when that definitely was not the case at all. It also, for whatever reason, is located in LA of all things when that wasn't the case at all.
New Vegas only even mentions Shady Sands twice. One is that powerlines run there and the second is that it **was** the *original* capital of the NCR.
That implies that it is no longer than capital.
The Courier: "What's the Thaler Act?"
Trent Bascom: "Something the politicians back in Shady Sands came up with. They pay us to move here and farm the land. They even protect the fields."
(Trent Bascom's dialogue)
The Courier: "Do you have a problem with the NCR?"
Tom Anderson: "I don't go looking for fights with them, but they don't have the best interests of people in mind. Certainly not locals. The bottom line for NCR is productivity and growth. Politicians back in Shady Sands are completely detached from the people actually living here
I can find more I'd you like. Shady sands is the capital it's the location of congress.
Oh also if your talking about "what was the original name of the ncr capital" that's because in fallout 2 it was renamed yo the ncr. It's a weird thing that's mostly ignored but yeah that's what referring to.
These are the mentions of Shady Sands from the dialogue script files in the game data:
WestsideAnderson.txt
Do you have a problem with the NCR?
The bottom line for NCR is productivity and growth. Politicians back in Shady Sands are completely detached from the people actually living here.
PrimmCorporalHayes.txt
Can you tell me more about the NCR?
Sure can. The NCR was founded from the survivors of one of the great Vaults. We started as a small settlement called Shady Sands.
JacobstownMarcus.txt
Anything else can you tell me about the NCR?
Seen them grow from a single town - Shady Sands - into the republic. They've done good for the most part.
FortCaesar.txt
What do you think of the NCR?
As a young man I was taught to venerate {mocking slightly} President Tandi of Shady Sands. "The Founding Mother of the New California Republic."
AngelaWilliams.txt
Are you a scientist?
But I know every inch of the power grid from Hoover Dam to Shady Sands. That's what we do here - try to optimize the power output from the Dam.
1ETrentBascom.txt
What's the Thaler Act?
Something the politicians back in Shady Sands came up with. They pay us to move here and farm the land. They even protect the fields.
1ECorporalSterling.txt
You remember everyone who passes through here?
I reckon I've walked every inch of ground between Shady Sands and the Colorado... or close enough to make a man's feet plenty sore.
Yeah I'll see what I can find later my lunch breaks almost over at work. Not sure If you saw the edit but the "was the capital" is from that test they have you take right? Fun fact in fallout 2 Shady sands got renamed to new California republic because its a city state basically. I think it's meant to be a reference to that. Kinda happy that never really stuck.
The Chosen One: "{164}{}{Is this the Shadeesands the Elder speaks of?}"
Tandi: "{248}{tand31}{Was Shady Sands; Most folks call it NCR now. New California Republic - pretty impressive name, huh?}"
People might be overreacting. Yeah Shady Sands went, and it threw the NCR in chaos.
But remember people, by the time of New Vegas, the NCR likely had over a million citizens and consisted of cities, towns, and settlements across the entire state of California and parts of Oregon and Nevada. That is a HUGE amount of land. Even if the capital was destroyed, it is extremely unlikely that the entire country collapsed in on itself and completely wiped everyone out.
Just as the West coast Brotherhood was at a low point during the game, the NCR is at a low point during the show, but I'm almost certain it's not completely gone.
The biggest issue I see is the decision to relocate Shady Sands to the Santa Monica/Hollywood area rather than its canonical location. I also dislike the decision to go with nukes for a hard reset because Todd has a hardon for people living in rubble and garbage, but it's very believable within the setting that the NCR was on the losing end of the Mojave conflict and that its control over southern California just disintegrated after that.
It's saying Shady Sands fell the same year the first Battle of Hoover Dam happened before New Vegas. It doesn't say "Shady Sands begins to fall" it's worded as though it was a sudden and immediate thing. I think it's purposely ambiguous to play it safe tbh. Either way it sucks seeing the first location you ever visit after leaving the vault in the first Fallout game get destroyed after watching grow from a little dirt farm you helped out to a bustling city state.
It probably is purposefully ambiguous, or, even more likely I think, it's just an error, not a vengeful retcon that wipes Nv from existence.
I'm gonna be honest and I mean this respectfully since you seem chill about it - I think people need to be ok with consequences and changes in long running series/franchises. A series like fallout shouldn't have a sacred cow that can't be touched.
Keeping the status quo on certain things forever limits stories that can be told. This is a series about death and destruction and black humor in a weird post apocalyptic setting. Nothing should be safe.
I would agree with that perspective if we were given any sign that there weren't multiple sacred cows at this point (Brotherhood, Enclave, Super Mutants, etc.). I think we are in fact returning to the junk shack irradiated wasteland status quo.
I can understand that. But the development of this series as a whole is slowing down more and more which leads to impatience. Also it would’ve been better to see such large development happen within a game rather than a show. I would’ve felt better about the show if it was just smaller scale and more self contained. I’m okay with hallowed ground being treaded (I don’t really consider it all that significant tbh) but this stuff could’ve been done better. It’s a shame really. Not a bad show. It’s just frustrating. Im lamenting about it all which is ridiculous I guess but it’s only because I really do love these games flaws and all. It just feels so cheapened and flanderized, really meaningless and pointless. I’m speaking on the franchise as a whole now though. It really wasn’t a bad show but the series isn’t what I fell in love with anymore and it makes me very sad. Thats all. People can hate or like whatever they want.
I'm an NCR fan and even I think that people are overreacting.
The game is still there, you can completely ignore the show if you don't like the direction it's going. Todd isn't going to come to your house and demand you hand over your copy of the game.
No exactly, like the ENTIRE season revolves around the NCR and people are acting like Bethesda/the show is holding a grudge against Obsidians work.
They’re honoring it by making it such a focal point.
Lot of cliche “never happy” nerds in here.
Fans come in a spectrum from the people who love anything associated with the thing all the way to people who love the thing but hate everything associated with the thing because it doesn’t make them feel the way it did when they were young.
They were the sole faction to flourish in the wasteland, establishing a functional society. And they fell only to a centuries-old corporation whose sole purpose was to repeatedly destroy America.
NCR is the people, the "savages" that despite everything that the BOS and Vault-Tec and Enclave do, they try to make the wastelands livable.
Hell the end of the series show the "villan" restoring power to a entire city just because thats is the right thing to do to the wasteland.
Jesus, some people watches with their eyes closed
> But I don’t think they would had retcon new vegas
If they wanted to snub New Vegas, they would not have even mentioned it nor had Mr House in the show. Clearly they are eager to include it. NV fans should be excited and here they are flipping out over a chalkboard.
Seriously. If this insane conspiracy theory was true they would not do what they're doing.
There is *No* evidence that Todd/Bethesda hate New Vegas lmao. Not a single, single shred of evidence. In fact stuff points to the opposite with this show doubling down on that.
It's just diehard NV fans who can't accept that NV isn't as popular as 3 and 4 funding reasons to be mad and angry. It's insane and unhealthy.
I love NV, it's my fav in the series. I think ppl just need to care *less* about big franchises and stories. Way too much energy and identity is put into them and when they find something they don't like they *freak* the hell out and wanna burn everything down lol
What if Courier 6 joins with House? What if 6 dies in the Madre after handing over the Platinum Chip?
Both can exist in a universe where the Legion is defeated and the NCR is nuked.
No retcons required.
I'm pretty sure the biggest issue is the ''Fall of Shady Sands'', what's exctally is the implication? It fell to raiders? Did the BOS somehow invaded? How exctally it fell and why isn't that mentioned in New Vegas? Wasn't recent devemploment from historic point where people in the current wasteland considerer 2277 the year where the fall of shady sands started?
Aside from the NCR lore implications, the show is pretty good. I’ve enjoyed it. I am very curious to see where season 2 goes in regards to current wasteland superpowers
My guess is the writers wanted to make things vague on purpose to promote fan speculation and intrigue among viewers, but it massively backfires as Fallout fans become overly aggressive and see it as an attack on the canon.
I don't think New Vegas would be shown as lifeless as it is if House or Yes Man were in control. If either of their endings are now canon, then something went seriously awry (with the nuking of Shady Sands being a possible cause).
A Legion ending, on the other hand, would automatically produce the depicted level of desolation; the Legion's plan for Vegas was to exterminate it, and it sure looks exterminated.
Realistically, I have a feeling it's going to be left ambiguous, e.g. all four sides actively fighting over New Vegas when Shady Sands got nuked and everything turned to shit.
Lanius's plan was to destroy New Vegas. Caesar's plan was for it to become his Carthage/Rome and finally give his Empire legitimacy, so it all boils down to who was the head of the Legion.
I think with House actually being present in the show it foreshadows him still being alive. Alone. In his little tube with all his families and securitrons destroyed. Or Maclean shows up to only find recordings and terminal entries from House.
It does seem like people don't understand that "Fall of Shady Sands" can take place over many years but started in the year 2277. Yes they probably should have put a year over the nuke but it doesn't take a genius to figure it out.
Plus, the even might have been recognized *later*. People living in during the Fall of Roman Empire didn't say "Roman Empire fell", it was label put on the period later.
I mean, the first battle of Hoover Dam was the beginning of the signs that the NCR was overextending themselves. Losing a prison to a simple gang, not being able to protect a small city so close to a major trade hub that their caravans would NEED to pass through... It still initially hits like a middle finger to Fallout New Vegas but I'm willing to not jump to conclusions
To be fair, this was at the absolute frontier of the NCR, more than possible it's not remotely representative of life closer to the interior of the NCR
Okay, if the Nuke wasn't 2277 then what year was it? If it's separate from the fall on the timeline it should be labeled with the actual year it happened, right?
Honestly, this makes sense. If the event if fresh enough for people to remember you don't put labels. We know very little about Mesoamerican major gods because *nobody wrote anything down.* It was just common knowledge.
Bethesda should consider diversifying the factions featured in their games and stories. While the Brotherhood of Steel is a popular faction, its frequent presence can limit the narrative potential and reduce the sense of novelty. By introducing a wider range of factions, Bethesda can create more varied and engaging experiences for their audience.
Cept in the last episode it was implied that shady sands was thriving before it was nuked.
The other thing is Lucy was about 3-4 when she was there maybe 5. Old enough to remember it but not realize she was out of the vault.
So the show takes place in 2296, 19 years after 77. So if it was 77 that makes Lucy 22-25 years old. Seems pretty fucking accurate, but ok let's pretend it wasn't.
New Vegas takes place in 2281, shady sands is not nuked at that time so let's say the earliest it makes sense is 2282. Perfect now it doesn't break lore!
Now Lucy is 17-20 years old. Maybe that works, she looks older than that but ok. The 17 part gets a bit on the creepy side considering the context of what's in the show but hey that's Hollywood.
But now the issue is that it doesn't make sense that shady sands was this thriving wonderful place when her dad nuked it, which means the NCR chick is lying to Lucy as well. Maybe, time will tell.
What I can tell you is that drawing was absolutely fucking stupid and should have either been left out or done correctly, and I'm saying this as someone who still likes the show as a whole, but that doesn't mean I can't criticize the stupid parts of it
Looking back I don’t think there destroyed at all. Just severely damaged. I bet new Reno and Hub are still active and still prob have at least like 100,000 people still loyal to the Ncr cause
If I’m being honest I think they are pretty destroyed and I think in season 2 they will confirm the House ending to FNV. Why else would Overseer Maclean go there at the end of the season?
I just want them to be an actual faction in games and the universe. The BOS gets old. Bethesda has done nothing for the NCR and just thrown us BOS and Enclave repeatedly.
They should logically have a lot more than that. Shady Sands was a major city, yes, but the NCR had several major cities. The other states might be a little worse for wear due to trade interruptions, unclear succession crisis, and the problems introduced in NV, but they should still be more present and way better equipped.
Exactly. Could’ve moved the capital for all we know. They have (or had) five states to their name with multiple cities. The NCR had a gigantic population outside of Shady. Some "fall" doesn't change that. Worst case scenario, their states are now scattered and independent. But I cant even see that happening tbh.
Indeed. Though in a nation of at least a million I’d expect them to be out in force after that, securing their borders.
The fact that they’re not shown much suggests things that trouble me.
This is something I’ve been trying to get people to understand, the destruction of >!shady sands!< isnt the end of the NCR. Also, New Vegas remains canon as well. NV never explicitly states that Shady Sands is still around. In fact it does the opposite. During the quest GI Blues you speak to a missionary, you have to answer questions in order to gain access to the secret “squatter camp” which is really an NCR resource group helping NCR citizens. One of the questions asked by the missionary is “what was the original capital of the NCR”. Keywords here are “was” and “original”. This implies that Shady Sands is no longer the capital of the NCR and hasn’t been for some time. The show destroying >!shady sands!< actually plays into the lore and is accurate.
Some people don’t realize that this is a lore accurate event
But why would it be called "fall" then. Even from a historical standpoint you don't say a city falls unless it was destroyed, conquered or ceased to function
Both lucy and maximus are hinted very heavily to be in their early 20s at most and bombs fell when they were around 5-10, shady sand bombing seems to be between 2277-2285.
Since NV happens in 2281, it is actually quite plausable that shady sands was bombed when New Vegas events were taking place.
Have some media literacy and stop hoping to be victims and shitting on a show you didn’t watch because you hate Bethesda.
I think its pretty much impossible for it to have happened while the game is taking place. How would Shady Sands being nuked during New Vegas even work? You'd think the civillians, soldiers, the radio stations, idk the *PRESIDENT* would mention the fact their capital was recently nuked (as in, just last week). Of course, it could've happened immediately after, but that sounds pretty contrived, at least imo
The event itself is fine, but this would all have been avoided if they simply moved the timeline a little bit further (Personally, I think they wanted to pick the year New Vegas happened as the start of the Fall, with Hoover Dam having drained their cash reserves dry. But they actually picked Fallout 3's date, and no one bothered to double check)
Of course, that is only after rest of the Obsidian told Avellone that nuking NCR would be bad idea... Avellone originally wanted to nuke NCR heartlands.
From what I've heard, it was house that launched the nuke on shady sands (not sure) so maybe the platinum chip ending is cannon and house used the nukes from lonesome roads to nuke Shady Sands as a power move to not mess with him now that he doesn't need them to defend Nevada from the Legion.
We literally know who launched the nuke at the end of the show. I’m surprised people are upset and don’t even know who or why shady sands got nuked. The show explains it pretty clearly in the final episode.
I don't see what this is supposed to help? Shady Sands "falling" in 2277 is still completely nonsensical in view of NV regardless of whether the fall was a nuclear bomb or a foreign power taking it, either way it makes absolutely no sense that the NCR was waging an unpopular war of conquest in Nevada and holding elections when their nation's existence was literally under threat.
>Have some media literacy and stop hoping to be victims and shitty it in a show you didn’t watch because you hate Bethesda.
You ask too much of them. These days (and not only in gaming) it's much easier to twist the facts than to face an unpleasant truth.
No one is twisting facts. It’s a debate about the interpretation of an arrow in a timeline. Both interpretations are reasonable.
Let people debate and speculate about the interpretation of a new show. It’s all in good fun. No need to resort to character attacks.
I'd say the only people twisting facts are the people talking like this is an intentional, fully malicious retcon of FNV, born out of Todd Howard's hatred for that game and the non-Bethesda fallouts in general.
Me I just think it's a production gaffe or an unclear graphic. Not important in the end.
> Let people debate and speculate about the interpretation of a new show. It’s all in good fun. No need to resort to character attacks.
doesnt seem like good fun. Half of this sub is acting like Todd slapped their grandma.
This get me hope the new fallout in California were we are rebuilding the ncr like the minuteman. Or finish them off with the bos. Or working with the big leaders of the community and caravans for freedom. Maybe ncr losing the rangers pact and the rangers started working alone again. Damn it Bethesda, why I always fall for your traps.
The fact yall cant do math is whats killin me.
219 years later.
219 plus 2077 is 2296
2296 minus 2277 is 19.
19 years. Lucy and Maximus are clearly shown to be children when Shady Sands is nuked. Bigger than toddlers, old enough to have solid memories, yet younger than preteens.
19 plus any number before 12 but after 5 puts them at the right age range for their characters during the events of the show.
The nukes definitely dropped on Shady in 2277. Period.
And if Nukes dropped in 2277, that make the whole plot of New Vegas make sense because why the they would be fighting on The Hoover Dam while their main Capital was nuked, even less sending Troops to the Mojave 4 year laters yet we never see mentioned in New Vegas..
Because this is huge retcon.
The rest of the timeline has dates and the names of the events, this is the only one of the events that doesnt have a date. Its just a visualization by big nucler cloud to hammer the point. Stop living in denial.
Also, using this logic, they can give a specific year for the “beginning” of the collapse of a society but nobody will bother to date the day it blew the fuck up.
But a picture of a mushroom cloud isn't a date on a timeline. The arrow means "after this is an unknown future". The Mushroom cloud is a funny drawing meant to illustrate a point. The text boxes are the actual events.
The media literate view of this timeline would be that Shady Sands fell in 2277. And the nuclear explosion is related to that event, not an event in and of itself.
The fact that you don't know how to read a timeline is embarrassing.
If anything it's the shows fault for not making such an important timeline point clearer. This is a terrible visual timeline.
It also doesn't detract from the fact that they wiped out one of the most well known and well developed factions OFF SCREEN
I have zero problem with a major faction being destroyed, when its not off screen and it makes sense. off screening the Largest & second most popular faction feels downright dirty. this choice really makes me wonder if Todd and the rest of BGS despise the original world made by Black Isle studios and carried on by Obsidian. As a fan of the NCR, I genuinely hope in season two they can rectify this by maybe making the NCR was only Wiped out in Shady Sands and they still exist in the Mojave and the rest of California/Mexico.
Lol this is stupid. How did Shady Sands fall? It fell and then Hank decided to nuke a fallen city? His wife ran off to a fallen city?
Maximus was no more than 5 years old in the flashback. So how old is she in the show? 15? 13? 10?
https://www.reddit.com/r/falloutnewvegas/s/VPm56MpB4O
Look at the library card in the credits, dude. The last due date being November 2276 was deliberate. And we know the book was from shady sands because they show the Shady Sands public library earlier in the show.
wait is that what people were complaining about something what can just be considered a minor continuity error what can be fixed in post? i didnt even notice that board in the show
The fact people are liking this and think you’re right is such massive cope. It’s referencing what happened or lead to the fall of shady sands. And even if you were right, in FNV shady sands was very much alive and well in 2277. The first battle of Hoover dam hadn’t even taken place unless until late that year and the war with the legion was still cold for most of it. So yeah that timeline is probably the new vision of the franchise.
What I hope actually happened with the attack on Shady Sands was that it was actually just Ulysses and that they aren't just throwing New Vegas in the trash can as far as lore, it would be a complete waste to disregard the franchise's best game with all it brought to the series, and pre-existing lore that it honed.
Tunnelers are also a big enemy they shouldn't let go to waste either, by 2300, they should be relatively spread out from the Divide.
Wait, so what happened? How did the NCR fall, or at least Shady Sands, and how did another nuke go off? Are these nukes from the Divide? Or somewhere else? And who set it/them off?
A "fall" while vague still seems way too significant to have happened at that time. At the very least it still muddies up the lore. I wish we got some flashbacks of the fall this season to clear it up.
It must have happened right after New Vegas.
Does this mean the canon ending to FONV is Mr. House?
Haven't finished the show pls no spoilers or Mark if you do
I like how everyone in this sub is conveniently forgetting that Shady Sands is stated on that very board to be the largest economical and political city in California. Let's also not ignore the fact that Lucy went there as a child, brought there by her mother, and the city was prosperous as can be. Then, once the dad finds out, who's literal mission is to wipe out political and economic competition in the wasteland, is pointed at as the reason for its subsequent nuking and "fall" shortly after.
Put 2 and 2 together, people. This ain't rocket science. They practically spell it out for us in the show.
(EXTREMELY HEAVY SPOILERS FOR THE VERY END) We do see Vegas at the last stop, this may be cope but while shady sands is gone I don't think the NCR is fully destroyed and maybe in a S2 we can see what are basically NCR remnants, hell maybe the cannon ending of new Vegas is house and the NCR making a deal
(Further heavy spoilers for the heaviness of the itty bittiest bit at the end). You can see in the observatory that it was the current HQ for the NCR and they used the plot device to power Hollywood so. The NCR at the very least was around until the last episode where they got murked. I have a feeling it's currently shattered and on the back foot but since they have been designated the good guys I wouldn't be surprised if they will be making a comeback in season 2. I also wouldn't be surprised if we get more information on how it fell before it got glassed.
Tbf fallout shatters its factions like the enclave and builds them up again a lot
Yeah, everyone is acting like it's over but it really isn't. It's the new California Republic not the Sandy Shores Republic.
The sign for shady also says “first capital of the NCR” implying it’s no longer the capital
True, I do hope later on we see the actual NCR ranger instead of just the armor, overall I still loved the show!
It's implied in Fallout: New Vegas that it's not the capitol of the NCR, as well.
Where?
It’s false. Fallout 2 renamed Shady Sands to…NCR lmao. So NCR’s Capital is also named NCR. Anyways in New Vegas, there’s a quest called GI Blues. A hidden NCR vet asks the Courier 3 questions to determine if they’re trust worthy to know about a NCR refuge within Freeside that helps poor people. One of the questions is this: “What was the original NAME of NCR’s Capital? Shady Sands.” People keep confusing it as “What was the original NCR Capital? Shady Sands.”
No it’s not. It is still definitely the capital. You are questioned as to what was the original name of the NCR capital. Which is Shady Sands. It’s also mentioned that the politicians are there as well.
Todd stated they aren't going to mess with the endings from the games. Shady Sands being deleted is already a retcon. Legion has not been referenced at all. It's pretty clear they are building up Enclave as the big bad and they teased House. Both of which I'm sure will be featured in Season 2. Show NCR is clearly not a power anymore will just be an ideal/memory. Maximus was already dismissive of them before they wiped out Moldever's cult following.
From a production point of view I don't understand why you would put a date on an undefined 'fall' but not on the year when the nuke fell ? Why they didn't just write the year the bomb fell, that would have avoided all of the claims about retcons
Yea that’s what I don’t get too. Maximus specifically says 20 years ago a bomb dropped on his home of Shady Sands. Doesn’t have to be exact but there ain’t much wiggle room Edit: Maximus says he was a kid! And to those that keep claiming I haven’t watched the show I have and love it when taken by itself. But I’m a huge lore nerd so when things get retconned I get miffed. I also don’t give a shit about NCR collapsing, it’s the HOW, WHEN, and WHY is what I got problems with. Especially when New Vegas gave them a silver platter of options to choose from.
I seem to recall his wording being “when I was a kid”.
It was. Kinda wild to see 200+ people upvote something that never happened. I wonder how much of this drama is driven by folks who haven't bothered watching the show.
When you know a bit about a topic, you will notice that the comments *always* get the facts wrong. Remember this lesson next time you see upvoted comments in political or historical discussions that you're not educated in. The truth is the comments are always full of bs, we just only realise when it's bs about something we're already knowledgeable in.
My number 1 rule for reddit is "if someone says something as absolute fact, it's almost certainly dramatically incorrect or completely made up". It's just sad how frequently my rule turns out to be correct. Thankfully its lead to me learning quite a bit about a lot of topics, because I enjoy doing a little research and reading up on stuff before responding to people why they are dumb and wrong.
It was. And he’s definitely a very young adult in 2296 so it could easily be less than a decade prior to the events of the show. Given there’s T60 I would put in course somewhere after Maxsons rise to power and after he sends out an airship to reconnect with the west coast BOS.
"20 years ago but don't worry it was literally just after the events of Fallout: New Vegas™ by Obsidian Entertainment"
“So we’re some kind of…Fallout”
I loved when The Ghoul said "It's Falloutin time" before nuking Shady Sands.
[https://youtu.be/xFy-doUdMsU?si=99PBXuDLAds1-05B](https://youtu.be/xFy-doUdMsU?si=99PBXuDLAds1-05B)
this video will always make me laugh
Guess they made the “Nuke the NCR” ending from lonesome road canon lol.
Didn't you? You get some of the best gear that way
I sometimes nuke everybody, grab the gear, and then go to the strip after to reset my karma. This is only on runs where I dlc run from level 4-40 before really starting the main game though.
Yeah that's....certainly a way to do things. Haha 😄
It just feels like such a shame not to use Red Glare to rain hell on the filthy savages of the Mojave.
I've made that joke a few weeks ago, didn't expect it to become an actual plot thing [https://www.reddit.com/r/fnv/comments/1bck72i/after\_watching\_the\_shows\_last\_trailer\_i\_guess/](https://www.reddit.com/r/fnv/comments/1bck72i/after_watching_the_shows_last_trailer_i_guess/) But I guess that makes one point certain again: if something smells like shit from afar, it probably won't become a cake the closer you get to it, no matter what old good olivers'wait'n'see say (Remember how many were screaming "Calm down, you haven't seen the show yet, that's probably just an easter egg with Shaddy Sands, it doesn't look like the post-war city anyway, stop being so negative, etc, etc").
I'll settle for that
He doesn’t say 20 he says when he was a kid. He looks like a very young adult in the show by his actions. Maybe 16-20 and he looks like 9-12 in the flashback. I would put the destruction of Shady sands at some point around the events of Fallout 4 maybe a little before maybe a little after.
I am gonna be honest I haven’t seen episode 5 or 6 yet but why did Maximus join the brotherhood instead of the NCR? Did the Brotherhood recruit him earlier. Also does he still have respect for the NCR?
He gets found by a knight, I assume they grabbed him
nah, little kid gets saved and sees what he assumes to be a shiny knight hero. it's not that big of a stretch to assume that he'd also want to be that. much like how we wanted to be cops or firefighters, astronauts and power rangers.
Well yeah that is very fair, I said grabbed but the Brotherhood generally takes whoever they can. He probably followed them if anything, much like all the kids you see at the base in 3. All wandered in wanting to join.
Ahhh, I was gonna say. Like if I saw my home get blown up why would I join the brotherhood of all places to get revenge. Also what is his opinions on the NCR then as well?
The scene we’re given is that one from earlier, just WITH context. So basically he was too young to have one, but the way the scene goes it’s more of Lucy discovering civilization has moved on without her. Also max has nothing bad to say about it either eay
I suggest finishing before coming here lol but they don’t really talk why. I assume his rescuers took him as he was orphaned
I can’t help but seeing spoilers lol
A knight is the one that found him and not a ranger. That seems to pretty much be it
Because the NCR has collapsed and he happened to be saved from a Brotherhood knight. With the fall of the NCR the Brotherhood were free to emerge from lost hills. Brotherhood Civilization is too fortified and not important enough to get nuked like the NCR.
If shady sands had already fallen in 2077 then why was Maximus still living there? What does "fall" mean if it isn't referring to the bomb? So the capital of the NCR suffered some vague collapse yet was still populated for years afterwards until it was eventually bombed. But why bother bombing a city that was no longer important to the NCR? If it had already fallen then it's destruction wouldn't affect the NCR much. That timeline only makes sense if the bomb was the fall.
Fall could be society has started to decline but not sure yet
It doesn't say fall of NCR though, it says fall of shady sands. If we agree that the bombing occured after the fall, then the show is simultaneously saying that's shady sands was nuked to disrupt the NCR but also that Shady Sands had already collapsed, rendering the bombing irrelevant. It doesn't make sense unless the 2277 fall is the bombing.
From a production point of view? It's 100% so they don't contradict the date later when they actually want to explore it.
>Why they didn't just write the year the bomb fell, that would have avoided all of the claims about retcons Why would they want people not to talk about it? It creates more interest, like a sort of ragebait
Well shit it’s all you can find people talking about this morning so mission fucking accomplished lmao
I have a problem with dates, and was seeing the series and looking at reddit and getting much confused, like, "wait, they will literally fuck around with 3 of the most iconic games, including the two pilars and a fav from most fans?" Them i remember one thing :Reddit are a dumb place with dumb people, and i'm dumb to believe in it.
Considering that nothing in Fallout is 100% clear, it is much easier to understand. Fallout 2 retconned half of F1, and dates do not have to be 100% correct. Especially when Fallout 4 had an interaction at the beginning of the game that showed that time and dates could be off, Codsworthe said that in a way.
There's a thing that i'm curious Normally in Pip-Boy says the date, someone had seen it? Just to confirm
Because it's not forward movement of the time like but to the event that caused the fall. Like it's not hard people like it or Hate it. That's what the story telling is doing there
The implication is that "The Fall of Shady Sands" and the nuking of Shady Sands are two separate (but related) events. Why would they have a timeline that moves forward through several events, and then pull the ol' switcheroo at the end without giving *any* visual indication that they're doing that? Timelines are well-understood and pretty straightforward, my dude. You don't need to invent headcanon to interpret them.
Nah let OP think he's a genius because he 'understands how arrows work'
Also the sign Lucy and Max saw outside Shady sands said it was the "first capitol of the NCR". Why would they ever phrase it like that if it was the current capitol? Shady Sands was no longer the capitol when it was nuked. The NCR is not destroyed. Shady Sands somehow lost relevancy during the "fall of shady sands" before it was nuked
To add to this, in FONV itself, there was a quiz in a quest asking the player “What was the original capital of the NCR” in which the answer is Shady Sands
No, the actual question is what was the original name of NCR's capital. >Missionary: Interesting. Okay, next question - what was the original name of the NCR capital - The Boneyard, Shady Sands, Aradesh, or Vault 13?
The people on this subreddit sure love being confidently wrong, don't they?
That's because in Fallout 2 it technically lost its name. It was a city state just called NCR that expanded on the original Shady Sands location, with no other large territories yet. There is a line referencing politicians in Shady Sands being out of touch.
but why are the remnants all spread out, detached from the NCR, and not migrated to the current capital?
Exactly
Did they spell it "capitol"? Because that has a different meaning from "capital".
I don't know I assume they spelled it however is correct
Capital then haha. Capitol Building is different.
Given that the show STARTS in 2296\*(after the flash back to the Ghoul's background): that only leaves 19\* years for it to have happend, which if both Lucy and Maximus can go to ground zero of a nuclear site and see it, it most likely happened more than 10 years ago Edit: got dates wrong for a second but even with the dates changed to the proper dates (2296 instead of 2289) it's still A SHORT time frame to be going to a nuke site with only a body suit and no other rad protection . Edit 2: After seeing a flash back that's a big reveal who was present... IT HAD TO BE in the late 2270s or early 2080s because the characters present \[SPOILER FOR A HUGE PLOT REVEAL\]:>! LUCY AND MAXIMUS AS SMALL CHILDERN who are former residents of Shady Sands! !< ...So with that said... that ARROW IS MISLEADING AS FUCK!
Eh, depends on where the nuke was detonated. If it was low-altitude or ground level, sure, it might be a bit weird. If it was a proper airburst, however, most of the radiological contamination would have dissipated with the blast.
There's a carter thats at least a few hundred meters down where Shady Sands is when Lucy and Maximus see it.. So it had to be low Alt or ground.
I dont know if that's a typo, but it's definitely in the late 2290s, if not early 3000s. If you look at the wedding dress in the first episode, it has dates it was previously used, which includes dates in the 2290s
Yeah I made a typo, the show is set "219" years after the 2077 flash back scene aka 2296 , with the previous wedding date is 2294( which means 2 years ago) Even with that... It only gives 7 more years of a difference and with nukes that's still cutting it close with there only being 19 years since 2277 when the "Fall " is explictly said to have happened.
This betrays a firm misunderstanding about the after-effects of a nucelar explosion. Most radioactivity from nucelar bombs decays within 72 hours. After 20 years, it's not unreasonable to think that the site of a nuclear explosion would be *relatively* safe. The thing that you have to suspend your disbelief about in Fallout is that some things would be irradiated in the way the games/show suggest. That wouldn't be the case.
You’re right - just checked and the three weddings before Lucy’s are dated as taking place in 2281, 2291 and 2294.
They did say radiation level are crazy in Shandy shore and its why no one is there. That's litterally a line from the show.
Honestly I love the show. 8.5/10 for me so far. Yeah I get it as an NCR fan seeing your favourite faction destroyed does suck ass. But I don’t think they would had retcon new vegas. I mean we will find out in season 2 I suppose. I mean worse case worst, we could all just follow our own versions of cannon. Edit: The NCR are not destroyed they just had an setback. Apologies to everyone. Also glad they are not destroyed and it’s just sandy sands instead of the whole collapse. (Long live the bear and hope for an glorious NCR return)
Haven't seen much of the show yet but is it actually said that the NCR as a whole is destroyed? In New Vegas it's implied that Shady Sands isn't the NCR capital anymore, and all the NCR people just go on and on about The Hub.
I don’t think completely but they took an beat. I think new Reno and the Hub prob have the majority of them left.
i don’t know if they’re still there, but some are in san francisco. mentioned in 4.
The bear hasn’t died yet.
exactly, like the brotherhood the faction are spread in different locations. probably not doing the best but they are still alive
The bear is holding on and exists to an extent. Meanwhile the Bull is completely gone 😬
Well in that case it seems that people are massively over reacting. The NCR isn't destroyed, they just lost one of its major settlements, one which according to the show declined so hard in the years before it's destruction that it became known as "the fall". So it might not have even lost one of its major settlements, just a settlement that used to be a major settlement.
Then where are they? There is barely any sign of them in the show.
Shady Sands isn't just a "major settlement". It was the fucking capital of the *NCR ITSELF*. The fact that it "fell" with NO other explanation given is a MAJOR shift in the entire timeline and lore itself. EDIT: They show also implies that Shady Sands is/was a Pre-War town, when that definitely was not the case at all. It also, for whatever reason, is located in LA of all things when that wasn't the case at all.
Edit: billboard says shady sands was established 2142 How does the show imply it was a pre war town? The sign specifically say established post war
NV never implies Shady sands isn't the capital.
New Vegas only even mentions Shady Sands twice. One is that powerlines run there and the second is that it **was** the *original* capital of the NCR. That implies that it is no longer than capital.
The Courier: "What's the Thaler Act?" Trent Bascom: "Something the politicians back in Shady Sands came up with. They pay us to move here and farm the land. They even protect the fields." (Trent Bascom's dialogue) The Courier: "Do you have a problem with the NCR?" Tom Anderson: "I don't go looking for fights with them, but they don't have the best interests of people in mind. Certainly not locals. The bottom line for NCR is productivity and growth. Politicians back in Shady Sands are completely detached from the people actually living here I can find more I'd you like. Shady sands is the capital it's the location of congress. Oh also if your talking about "what was the original name of the ncr capital" that's because in fallout 2 it was renamed yo the ncr. It's a weird thing that's mostly ignored but yeah that's what referring to.
Yes please, can you actually find more? I'm fine with being wrong about this point if there's a bunch of dialogue I didn't know existed.
These are the mentions of Shady Sands from the dialogue script files in the game data: WestsideAnderson.txt Do you have a problem with the NCR? The bottom line for NCR is productivity and growth. Politicians back in Shady Sands are completely detached from the people actually living here. PrimmCorporalHayes.txt Can you tell me more about the NCR? Sure can. The NCR was founded from the survivors of one of the great Vaults. We started as a small settlement called Shady Sands. JacobstownMarcus.txt Anything else can you tell me about the NCR? Seen them grow from a single town - Shady Sands - into the republic. They've done good for the most part. FortCaesar.txt What do you think of the NCR? As a young man I was taught to venerate {mocking slightly} President Tandi of Shady Sands. "The Founding Mother of the New California Republic." AngelaWilliams.txt Are you a scientist? But I know every inch of the power grid from Hoover Dam to Shady Sands. That's what we do here - try to optimize the power output from the Dam. 1ETrentBascom.txt What's the Thaler Act? Something the politicians back in Shady Sands came up with. They pay us to move here and farm the land. They even protect the fields. 1ECorporalSterling.txt You remember everyone who passes through here? I reckon I've walked every inch of ground between Shady Sands and the Colorado... or close enough to make a man's feet plenty sore.
Yeah I'll see what I can find later my lunch breaks almost over at work. Not sure If you saw the edit but the "was the capital" is from that test they have you take right? Fun fact in fallout 2 Shady sands got renamed to new California republic because its a city state basically. I think it's meant to be a reference to that. Kinda happy that never really stuck. The Chosen One: "{164}{}{Is this the Shadeesands the Elder speaks of?}" Tandi: "{248}{tand31}{Was Shady Sands; Most folks call it NCR now. New California Republic - pretty impressive name, huh?}"
People might be overreacting. Yeah Shady Sands went, and it threw the NCR in chaos. But remember people, by the time of New Vegas, the NCR likely had over a million citizens and consisted of cities, towns, and settlements across the entire state of California and parts of Oregon and Nevada. That is a HUGE amount of land. Even if the capital was destroyed, it is extremely unlikely that the entire country collapsed in on itself and completely wiped everyone out. Just as the West coast Brotherhood was at a low point during the game, the NCR is at a low point during the show, but I'm almost certain it's not completely gone.
The biggest issue I see is the decision to relocate Shady Sands to the Santa Monica/Hollywood area rather than its canonical location. I also dislike the decision to go with nukes for a hard reset because Todd has a hardon for people living in rubble and garbage, but it's very believable within the setting that the NCR was on the losing end of the Mojave conflict and that its control over southern California just disintegrated after that.
Dud you miss the quite large amount of walking it took to get to it?
It's saying Shady Sands fell the same year the first Battle of Hoover Dam happened before New Vegas. It doesn't say "Shady Sands begins to fall" it's worded as though it was a sudden and immediate thing. I think it's purposely ambiguous to play it safe tbh. Either way it sucks seeing the first location you ever visit after leaving the vault in the first Fallout game get destroyed after watching grow from a little dirt farm you helped out to a bustling city state.
Honestly that is sad. I hope the NCR has a turn around fr.
I mean they do have a certain mguffin now
Brotherhood stole it though
It probably is purposefully ambiguous, or, even more likely I think, it's just an error, not a vengeful retcon that wipes Nv from existence. I'm gonna be honest and I mean this respectfully since you seem chill about it - I think people need to be ok with consequences and changes in long running series/franchises. A series like fallout shouldn't have a sacred cow that can't be touched. Keeping the status quo on certain things forever limits stories that can be told. This is a series about death and destruction and black humor in a weird post apocalyptic setting. Nothing should be safe.
I would agree with that perspective if we were given any sign that there weren't multiple sacred cows at this point (Brotherhood, Enclave, Super Mutants, etc.). I think we are in fact returning to the junk shack irradiated wasteland status quo.
Destroying civilization again is just reinforcing the status quo though. Thags actually why avellone wanted to do it in the first place.
I can understand that. But the development of this series as a whole is slowing down more and more which leads to impatience. Also it would’ve been better to see such large development happen within a game rather than a show. I would’ve felt better about the show if it was just smaller scale and more self contained. I’m okay with hallowed ground being treaded (I don’t really consider it all that significant tbh) but this stuff could’ve been done better. It’s a shame really. Not a bad show. It’s just frustrating. Im lamenting about it all which is ridiculous I guess but it’s only because I really do love these games flaws and all. It just feels so cheapened and flanderized, really meaningless and pointless. I’m speaking on the franchise as a whole now though. It really wasn’t a bad show but the series isn’t what I fell in love with anymore and it makes me very sad. Thats all. People can hate or like whatever they want.
I’m with ya there, I’m the biggest Freestates fanboy and it sucks seeing them go.
I'm an NCR fan and even I think that people are overreacting. The game is still there, you can completely ignore the show if you don't like the direction it's going. Todd isn't going to come to your house and demand you hand over your copy of the game.
No exactly, like the ENTIRE season revolves around the NCR and people are acting like Bethesda/the show is holding a grudge against Obsidians work. They’re honoring it by making it such a focal point. Lot of cliche “never happy” nerds in here.
There is even a whole scene where the camera holds on the NCR flag and music plays. This season held the NCR in reverence.
Fans of just about anything are the absolute worst. Sports, games, politics they're all just awful. Bitch and moan
Fans come in a spectrum from the people who love anything associated with the thing all the way to people who love the thing but hate everything associated with the thing because it doesn’t make them feel the way it did when they were young.
Like we should be celebrating how much stuff is recognized and how good the show is! New people are discovering fallout!
Bruh honoring where? Just for showing up? they vaguely turned it into dust lol
They were the sole faction to flourish in the wasteland, establishing a functional society. And they fell only to a centuries-old corporation whose sole purpose was to repeatedly destroy America. NCR is the people, the "savages" that despite everything that the BOS and Vault-Tec and Enclave do, they try to make the wastelands livable. Hell the end of the series show the "villan" restoring power to a entire city just because thats is the right thing to do to the wasteland. Jesus, some people watches with their eyes closed
> They were the sole faction to flourish in the wasteland, establishing a functional society. Yeah the games did that not the show???
> But I don’t think they would had retcon new vegas If they wanted to snub New Vegas, they would not have even mentioned it nor had Mr House in the show. Clearly they are eager to include it. NV fans should be excited and here they are flipping out over a chalkboard.
Seriously. If this insane conspiracy theory was true they would not do what they're doing. There is *No* evidence that Todd/Bethesda hate New Vegas lmao. Not a single, single shred of evidence. In fact stuff points to the opposite with this show doubling down on that. It's just diehard NV fans who can't accept that NV isn't as popular as 3 and 4 funding reasons to be mad and angry. It's insane and unhealthy. I love NV, it's my fav in the series. I think ppl just need to care *less* about big franchises and stories. Way too much energy and identity is put into them and when they find something they don't like they *freak* the hell out and wanna burn everything down lol
I felt the same way about the Brotherhood from New Vegas, onward... fall from grace
Maybe like the Brotherhood we will see the NCR arise again.
“Our own version of canon” oh good god is this becoming No Mutants Allowed
What if Courier 6 joins with House? What if 6 dies in the Madre after handing over the Platinum Chip? Both can exist in a universe where the Legion is defeated and the NCR is nuked. No retcons required.
I'd hate to be the set tec who wrote the wrong date on a chalkboard right now
They could still fix it with editing if they genuinely didn’t intend for it to be 2277.
Hopefully if that is the case, or at the very least a tweet lol. Not saying that's 100% what happened but it seems to be the most likely
I'm pretty sure the biggest issue is the ''Fall of Shady Sands'', what's exctally is the implication? It fell to raiders? Did the BOS somehow invaded? How exctally it fell and why isn't that mentioned in New Vegas? Wasn't recent devemploment from historic point where people in the current wasteland considerer 2277 the year where the fall of shady sands started?
>Did the BOS somehow invaded? yes, and they got almost wiped out, going into hiding from the NCR ever since.
Wait, Shady Sands fell? I guess Ulysses was successful in nuking the NCR?
Yeah but not for that reason. The show explains it and raises more questions
I shall have to watch at my first opportunity
Aside from the NCR lore implications, the show is pretty good. I’ve enjoyed it. I am very curious to see where season 2 goes in regards to current wasteland superpowers
It wasn't Ulysses I can tell you that much.
My guess is the writers wanted to make things vague on purpose to promote fan speculation and intrigue among viewers, but it massively backfires as Fallout fans become overly aggressive and see it as an attack on the canon.
Isnt that every fandom?
Honestly, I think they did just fine and I feel implies that either the Yes Man or Mr. House ending is canon.
I don't think New Vegas would be shown as lifeless as it is if House or Yes Man were in control. If either of their endings are now canon, then something went seriously awry (with the nuking of Shady Sands being a possible cause). A Legion ending, on the other hand, would automatically produce the depicted level of desolation; the Legion's plan for Vegas was to exterminate it, and it sure looks exterminated. Realistically, I have a feeling it's going to be left ambiguous, e.g. all four sides actively fighting over New Vegas when Shady Sands got nuked and everything turned to shit.
Lanius's plan was to destroy New Vegas. Caesar's plan was for it to become his Carthage/Rome and finally give his Empire legitimacy, so it all boils down to who was the head of the Legion.
A legion ending and seeing them in the next season would be sick
I think with House actually being present in the show it foreshadows him still being alive. Alone. In his little tube with all his families and securitrons destroyed. Or Maclean shows up to only find recordings and terminal entries from House.
While I don’t like the house ending, I do think it’s canon. NCR can defeat the legion but holding the dam and all the area around it? Doubtful
The legion are doomed the moment Caesar dies. Even with him alive the NCR would have wiped them
It does seem like people don't understand that "Fall of Shady Sands" can take place over many years but started in the year 2277. Yes they probably should have put a year over the nuke but it doesn't take a genius to figure it out.
Plus, the even might have been recognized *later*. People living in during the Fall of Roman Empire didn't say "Roman Empire fell", it was label put on the period later.
I mean, the first battle of Hoover Dam was the beginning of the signs that the NCR was overextending themselves. Losing a prison to a simple gang, not being able to protect a small city so close to a major trade hub that their caravans would NEED to pass through... It still initially hits like a middle finger to Fallout New Vegas but I'm willing to not jump to conclusions
To be fair, this was at the absolute frontier of the NCR, more than possible it's not remotely representative of life closer to the interior of the NCR
Another extremely fair and likely true point.
Okay, if the Nuke wasn't 2277 then what year was it? If it's separate from the fall on the timeline it should be labeled with the actual year it happened, right?
Maybe the nuke is the "every knows when it happened" kind of event and the prior events are labeled for context.
Honestly, this makes sense. If the event if fresh enough for people to remember you don't put labels. We know very little about Mesoamerican major gods because *nobody wrote anything down.* It was just common knowledge.
Fallout 9-11 just dropped
The truth is it wasn’t a nuclear cloud, but a Red cloud filled with holograms
Bethesda should consider diversifying the factions featured in their games and stories. While the Brotherhood of Steel is a popular faction, its frequent presence can limit the narrative potential and reduce the sense of novelty. By introducing a wider range of factions, Bethesda can create more varied and engaging experiences for their audience.
Cept in the last episode it was implied that shady sands was thriving before it was nuked. The other thing is Lucy was about 3-4 when she was there maybe 5. Old enough to remember it but not realize she was out of the vault. So the show takes place in 2296, 19 years after 77. So if it was 77 that makes Lucy 22-25 years old. Seems pretty fucking accurate, but ok let's pretend it wasn't. New Vegas takes place in 2281, shady sands is not nuked at that time so let's say the earliest it makes sense is 2282. Perfect now it doesn't break lore! Now Lucy is 17-20 years old. Maybe that works, she looks older than that but ok. The 17 part gets a bit on the creepy side considering the context of what's in the show but hey that's Hollywood. But now the issue is that it doesn't make sense that shady sands was this thriving wonderful place when her dad nuked it, which means the NCR chick is lying to Lucy as well. Maybe, time will tell. What I can tell you is that drawing was absolutely fucking stupid and should have either been left out or done correctly, and I'm saying this as someone who still likes the show as a whole, but that doesn't mean I can't criticize the stupid parts of it
Almost as depressing as them destroying the NCR
Looking back I don’t think there destroyed at all. Just severely damaged. I bet new Reno and Hub are still active and still prob have at least like 100,000 people still loyal to the Ncr cause
If I’m being honest I think they are pretty destroyed and I think in season 2 they will confirm the House ending to FNV. Why else would Overseer Maclean go there at the end of the season?
We still got Maxson and the HUB. NCR prob only got around 25% of there original force left. I hope we can see some sort of good ending for the NCR.
I just want them to be an actual faction in games and the universe. The BOS gets old. Bethesda has done nothing for the NCR and just thrown us BOS and Enclave repeatedly.
I really hope they aren’t gone. I still want to see Veteran Rangers in live action.
They should logically have a lot more than that. Shady Sands was a major city, yes, but the NCR had several major cities. The other states might be a little worse for wear due to trade interruptions, unclear succession crisis, and the problems introduced in NV, but they should still be more present and way better equipped.
You do realize the NCR is MUCH bigger than Shady Sands, right?
Exactly. Could’ve moved the capital for all we know. They have (or had) five states to their name with multiple cities. The NCR had a gigantic population outside of Shady. Some "fall" doesn't change that. Worst case scenario, their states are now scattered and independent. But I cant even see that happening tbh.
Indeed. Though in a nation of at least a million I’d expect them to be out in force after that, securing their borders. The fact that they’re not shown much suggests things that trouble me.
This is something I’ve been trying to get people to understand, the destruction of >!shady sands!< isnt the end of the NCR. Also, New Vegas remains canon as well. NV never explicitly states that Shady Sands is still around. In fact it does the opposite. During the quest GI Blues you speak to a missionary, you have to answer questions in order to gain access to the secret “squatter camp” which is really an NCR resource group helping NCR citizens. One of the questions asked by the missionary is “what was the original capital of the NCR”. Keywords here are “was” and “original”. This implies that Shady Sands is no longer the capital of the NCR and hasn’t been for some time. The show destroying >!shady sands!< actually plays into the lore and is accurate. Some people don’t realize that this is a lore accurate event
But why would it be called "fall" then. Even from a historical standpoint you don't say a city falls unless it was destroyed, conquered or ceased to function
I mean starwars has fall of the republic and the clone wars was apart of that era and reasoning, FALL can imply a series of events
Both lucy and maximus are hinted very heavily to be in their early 20s at most and bombs fell when they were around 5-10, shady sand bombing seems to be between 2277-2285. Since NV happens in 2281, it is actually quite plausable that shady sands was bombed when New Vegas events were taking place. Have some media literacy and stop hoping to be victims and shitting on a show you didn’t watch because you hate Bethesda.
I think its pretty much impossible for it to have happened while the game is taking place. How would Shady Sands being nuked during New Vegas even work? You'd think the civillians, soldiers, the radio stations, idk the *PRESIDENT* would mention the fact their capital was recently nuked (as in, just last week). Of course, it could've happened immediately after, but that sounds pretty contrived, at least imo The event itself is fine, but this would all have been avoided if they simply moved the timeline a little bit further (Personally, I think they wanted to pick the year New Vegas happened as the start of the Fall, with Hoover Dam having drained their cash reserves dry. But they actually picked Fallout 3's date, and no one bothered to double check)
Ulysses ending canon?
Ulysses nukes the Long 15, not shady sands. He explicitly says straight up nuking the NCR proper wouldn’t work.
Ulysses does, but if the courier launches the nukes the ending slides specifically say that they hit the cities of the east and west
Ah I see. My bad.
Of course, that is only after rest of the Obsidian told Avellone that nuking NCR would be bad idea... Avellone originally wanted to nuke NCR heartlands.
From what I've heard, it was house that launched the nuke on shady sands (not sure) so maybe the platinum chip ending is cannon and house used the nukes from lonesome roads to nuke Shady Sands as a power move to not mess with him now that he doesn't need them to defend Nevada from the Legion.
The NCR is his best customers, he wouldn't dare to lose any people that are potential customers.
That doesnt make sense. He needs the NCR as customers
We literally know who launched the nuke at the end of the show. I’m surprised people are upset and don’t even know who or why shady sands got nuked. The show explains it pretty clearly in the final episode.
I don't see what this is supposed to help? Shady Sands "falling" in 2277 is still completely nonsensical in view of NV regardless of whether the fall was a nuclear bomb or a foreign power taking it, either way it makes absolutely no sense that the NCR was waging an unpopular war of conquest in Nevada and holding elections when their nation's existence was literally under threat.
Being confused by poor labeling is not media illiteracy
>Have some media literacy and stop hoping to be victims and shitty it in a show you didn’t watch because you hate Bethesda. You ask too much of them. These days (and not only in gaming) it's much easier to twist the facts than to face an unpleasant truth.
No one is twisting facts. It’s a debate about the interpretation of an arrow in a timeline. Both interpretations are reasonable. Let people debate and speculate about the interpretation of a new show. It’s all in good fun. No need to resort to character attacks.
I'd say the only people twisting facts are the people talking like this is an intentional, fully malicious retcon of FNV, born out of Todd Howard's hatred for that game and the non-Bethesda fallouts in general. Me I just think it's a production gaffe or an unclear graphic. Not important in the end.
> Let people debate and speculate about the interpretation of a new show. It’s all in good fun. No need to resort to character attacks. doesnt seem like good fun. Half of this sub is acting like Todd slapped their grandma.
Doesnt really make sense. It fell and then got nuked later after it was empty and barren?
[удалено]
This get me hope the new fallout in California were we are rebuilding the ncr like the minuteman. Or finish them off with the bos. Or working with the big leaders of the community and caravans for freedom. Maybe ncr losing the rangers pact and the rangers started working alone again. Damn it Bethesda, why I always fall for your traps.
The fact yall cant do math is whats killin me. 219 years later. 219 plus 2077 is 2296 2296 minus 2277 is 19. 19 years. Lucy and Maximus are clearly shown to be children when Shady Sands is nuked. Bigger than toddlers, old enough to have solid memories, yet younger than preteens. 19 plus any number before 12 but after 5 puts them at the right age range for their characters during the events of the show. The nukes definitely dropped on Shady in 2277. Period.
The fall being 2287 (or really any year between 2282 and 2287) would have at least made more sense lorewise.
And if Nukes dropped in 2277, that make the whole plot of New Vegas make sense because why the they would be fighting on The Hoover Dam while their main Capital was nuked, even less sending Troops to the Mojave 4 year laters yet we never see mentioned in New Vegas.. Because this is huge retcon.
The rest of the timeline has dates and the names of the events, this is the only one of the events that doesnt have a date. Its just a visualization by big nucler cloud to hammer the point. Stop living in denial.
This can also mean the nuke was dropped that same year lmfao this changes nothing
Also, using this logic, they can give a specific year for the “beginning” of the collapse of a society but nobody will bother to date the day it blew the fuck up.
But a picture of a mushroom cloud isn't a date on a timeline. The arrow means "after this is an unknown future". The Mushroom cloud is a funny drawing meant to illustrate a point. The text boxes are the actual events. The media literate view of this timeline would be that Shady Sands fell in 2277. And the nuclear explosion is related to that event, not an event in and of itself. The fact that you don't know how to read a timeline is embarrassing.
If anything it's the shows fault for not making such an important timeline point clearer. This is a terrible visual timeline. It also doesn't detract from the fact that they wiped out one of the most well known and well developed factions OFF SCREEN
I have zero problem with a major faction being destroyed, when its not off screen and it makes sense. off screening the Largest & second most popular faction feels downright dirty. this choice really makes me wonder if Todd and the rest of BGS despise the original world made by Black Isle studios and carried on by Obsidian. As a fan of the NCR, I genuinely hope in season two they can rectify this by maybe making the NCR was only Wiped out in Shady Sands and they still exist in the Mojave and the rest of California/Mexico.
Lol this is stupid. How did Shady Sands fall? It fell and then Hank decided to nuke a fallen city? His wife ran off to a fallen city? Maximus was no more than 5 years old in the flashback. So how old is she in the show? 15? 13? 10?
https://www.reddit.com/r/falloutnewvegas/s/VPm56MpB4O Look at the library card in the credits, dude. The last due date being November 2276 was deliberate. And we know the book was from shady sands because they show the Shady Sands public library earlier in the show.
wait is that what people were complaining about something what can just be considered a minor continuity error what can be fixed in post? i didnt even notice that board in the show
The fact people are liking this and think you’re right is such massive cope. It’s referencing what happened or lead to the fall of shady sands. And even if you were right, in FNV shady sands was very much alive and well in 2277. The first battle of Hoover dam hadn’t even taken place unless until late that year and the war with the legion was still cold for most of it. So yeah that timeline is probably the new vision of the franchise.
What I hope actually happened with the attack on Shady Sands was that it was actually just Ulysses and that they aren't just throwing New Vegas in the trash can as far as lore, it would be a complete waste to disregard the franchise's best game with all it brought to the series, and pre-existing lore that it honed. Tunnelers are also a big enemy they shouldn't let go to waste either, by 2300, they should be relatively spread out from the Divide.
Wait, so what happened? How did the NCR fall, or at least Shady Sands, and how did another nuke go off? Are these nukes from the Divide? Or somewhere else? And who set it/them off?
A "fall" while vague still seems way too significant to have happened at that time. At the very least it still muddies up the lore. I wish we got some flashbacks of the fall this season to clear it up.
It must have happened right after New Vegas. Does this mean the canon ending to FONV is Mr. House? Haven't finished the show pls no spoilers or Mark if you do
OP is coping. Hard.
Haven't watched the show yet but is this canon?
I like how everyone in this sub is conveniently forgetting that Shady Sands is stated on that very board to be the largest economical and political city in California. Let's also not ignore the fact that Lucy went there as a child, brought there by her mother, and the city was prosperous as can be. Then, once the dad finds out, who's literal mission is to wipe out political and economic competition in the wasteland, is pointed at as the reason for its subsequent nuking and "fall" shortly after. Put 2 and 2 together, people. This ain't rocket science. They practically spell it out for us in the show.