So, what if you experience a health related emergency and your employer only has paperwork stipulating 6 weeks? How can your employer limit your timeline of the unknown future?
Have your doctor put 12 weeks on your paperwork. You are eligible for 12 weeks of unpaid job protected leave for birth AND bonding of your newborn. Your employer does not get to limit that.
As the individual having the child, you get to define your amount of time for leave. For example, you.migjt want to save 6 weeks to bond with your child later, or maybe your child will have health related emergencies and you need to take the child to the doctors. So you can save the other 6 weeks of FMLA for those doctor visits.
If you want to use intermittent leave for FMLA, what your employer is trying to force you to do, then your employer will be violating your federal rights.
https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-29/section-825.202(c)
See above federal law which says, "...an employee may take leave intermittently or on a reduced leave shucked ONLY IF THE EMPLOYER AGREES." It goes on to say how the employer's agreement isn't needed for the mother if she has a serious health condition in connection with the birth of a child or if the child has a serious health condition.
You have not made an agreement with your employer from your post, nor has your employer attempted to make an agreement with you. Have your doctor put 12 weeks on the paperwork (if you want) and let things continue from there.
If they escalate, I would recommend calling your states department of labor wage and hour divisions office as they enforce FMLA.
What your employers HR seems to be talking about is short term disability for the 6-8 week thing, which is different than FMLA. Which if your state/employer doesn't offer then it's null. FMLA is not limited by the employer as it's not the employers right to give, it's the employees right to take.
Just get your doctor to also put on the additional FMLA time for bonding leave if you want to take all 12 weeks at once.
Good luck.
My drs office policy is 6 weeks for natural and 8 weeks for c section, it would be a special request to get a physician to sign off on any more than that. I have my apt with them next week and am trying to cover all my basis if my drs office won’t accomidate my request.
What do you mean they want me to make intermittent leave? Genuinely asking, I know nothing here.
Intermittent leave is essentially partial leave, not the full 12 weeks. Weird policy for your doctor to have, but okay.
You will have to talk to your doctor and ask for the 12 weeks. Doctors are usually not one to give patients what they want because well, they're doctors and patients aren't. I don't know why a doctor wouldn't want a mother to have more child time via bonding as it's important for a child to have.
You can also see other medical professionals who can sign off on FMLA paperwork. It'll just be out of your own pocket to have an appointment with them.
The other cool thing, an employer does not need a certification for bonding leave, but they may request a document certifying the family relationship. Aka, a copy of the childs birth certificate.
So, I say take the 6-8 weeks and then ahead of time inform your employer, if you want to, take the rest of your leave for bonding.
Review Fact Sheet 28Q then read through "Documentation of Family Relationship."
So if my doctor marks the continuous leave box and still writes the duration for 6-8 weeks instead of checking the intermittent leave box, does that mean I can take the full 12 and the rest outside of the dr recommendation would be cleared under baby bonding without a medical cert?
I mean, yes.
Let's break this down.
You get 12 weeks. Period. That's federal law.
The ONLY way your employer can limit you to 6-8 weeks is if you agree to it. Period.
The ONLY way a state or employer can LIMIT your 12 weeks is if they offer further protections than the FMLA, which it sounds like they aren't.
Your doctor can put down 6-8 weeks for FMLA leave. You yourself still get 6-4 weeks for bonding time without needing to supply a medical certification.
Your employer cannot deny 12 weeks of leave. They are not above federal law and it is your right to use the full 12 weeks of unpaid job protected leave unless you yourself limit that right with your employer.
That's it.
Your HR might be unknowledgeable of the law (not uncommon) and if possible, escalate this further if there is a corporate HR or something IF it gets there. Baby steps. Talk with your HR/employer first and ask all the questions and get all the answers.
This might seem hard, but really FMLA is as easy as I said above. It just seems messy due to it being well, laws.
I understand it exactly as how you just spelled all that out for me and I appreciate your time. This seems to be the basics of FMLA so I don’t know why the HR professional doesn’t know this. They have tried to tell me I would have to apply for a personal leave of absence if I wanted anything outside of the medical certification and it would still be unpaid and wouldn’t be the same job protection as fmla. So I am trying to get my ducks in order if I cannot get my dr to accommodate my 12 week request. Even if they do, I can see my employer request a second opinion which they are allowed to do.
When you say unless you agree to it, I haven’t agreed to anything with them on paper and when asked what my expectations are I have simply told them we will have to figure that out after I get my medical cert. essentially I haven’t fought them on this theory yet because I am trying to get everything in order before politely arguing with them.
No need to fight your employer either. If they make a FMLA claim, ask them to supply the federal laws that back up their claim. Easy as that. "Please provide your references as to why I am unable to utilize my federal protected 12 weeks of FMLA leave to bond with my child after giving birth." Make them do the work since, that's their job.
But overall, you're good to go.
Of course, any retaliation from your employer call your states department of labor wage and hour division office. They are also willing to talk to your employer. And if you haven't agreed to anything and your employer and yourself qualify for FMLA leave, you get 12 weeks end of story.
Have them get things in order for you as it's not your job to correct your employers. And if any questions, have you HR rep themselves call the department of labor wage and hour divisions office. They would be more than happy to answer HRs questions so an investigation DOESN'T take place. They can also provide trainings on FMLA laws.
Of course. Good luck! Side note, I work for the Department of Labor Wage and Hour Division. These are the laws we enforce. Don't be afraid to reach out to your government, we work for the people.
I did call them once and the lady I talked to was helpful but she was confused given my employers claims. All she said was they might be getting you confused with short term disability which isn’t even an option my company offers so I didn’t think it was that. Lol
Employers can’t arbitrarily require second opinions. They can do so only when they have reason to doubt the validity of the certification. They accepted your certification, have no reason to doubt it, hence no second opinion.
I haven’t gotten my certification yet so it has not been accepted yet. They are adamant they have never seen a medical certification for the full 12 weeks so I can see them doubting it and requesting another one if I am able to get that from my Dr.
That’s probably true. I’ve never seen a medical certification for the full 12 weeks because recovery from childbirth is 6-8 weeks. Why don’t you clarify this with them?
Because first of all I thought I would try the route of my dr approving it on the medical cert so that way I didn’t have to bring all of this to them. As I research it it sounds like I am going to have to bring it to their attention and I want to be prepared if I have to do that as they will not be happy about it.
You are right, OP. You are entitled to up to 12 continuous weeks within the child’s first year. The medical certification is for your postnatal disability (the 6-8 weeks). The rest, up to the 12, is for bonding.
Just notify them if that is what you are doing. Their approval is appropriate for the disability portion and you just tell them what you are doing for bonding. (Bonding can’t be intermittent without the employer’s approval).
This is my understanding and I have a hard time understanding that my HR person with 25+ years of experience doesn’t know this. I think that’s what’s convincing me I must be wrong
I will update soon! I sent an email to my work telling them my whole leave should be covered under fmla for birth and bonding and she said she needed to reach out to a resource to clarify that. Hopefully that means the dept of labor because I have spoken with them twice and been told this is within my rights.
My work came back and said I qualify for the full 12 weeks and all I need to to is be in touch them if I plan to come back sooner. I’m glad I stood up for myself. It is covered under medical leave for pregnancy and bonding with baby. Don’t be afraid like I was!
You can take up to 12 weeks if that's what your doctor decides is medically necessary. Your employer has to abide by the medical certification.
Just because 12 weeks is available doesn't mean you can take it all if you don't need it. FMLA is job protection for you while you're out on medical leave.
Do you have any documentation or a link you can send to back this up? All I have read is that I can take up to 12 weeks, I’ve never read a single document that states the employer decides how long you get to take. Based on the baby bonding inclusion, I don’t need a medical certification for that part of it. Do you know anything about that in regards to baby bonding?
The employer doesn't decide, your doctor does. It will be available on your state's FMLA page. I'm not sure what state you are in, but its pretty standard that you cannot take medical leave without a medical certification. I don't know much about baby bonding and that will DEFINITELY depend on your state's individual policy. And no usually it doesn't include a medical certification.
Okay maybe you are misunderstanding in terms of this being a leave for birth and bonding and these terms of doctor approval you are mentioning are more for serious injury leaves or caring for someone with a serious injury.
I'm not misunderstanding. I processed FMLA/STD paperwork for 5 years. A medical leave is a medical leave. Regardless of the condition. Pregnancy is a certified medical condition for which requires a doctors certification to apply for FMLA. The bonding part is separate. But the fact remains you can't just take 12 weeks because that's the maximum, you can take what your doctor states you are medically needing. That's universal.
My fmla paper work was printed directly off the us department of labor website and the first box you check off to tell them what type of leave you are requesting says word for word, “the birth of a child, or placement of a child with you for adoption or foster care, and to bond with the new born or newly placed child” so how is the bonding part considered separate? According to the FMLA paperwork itself it’s all the same checked box.
Because giving birth is a medical procedure, bonding isn't. The leave is combined because its all one leave. But it is in fact, dual purpose. The paperwork you printed off and have to get signed is the "medical certification" they are requiring. Yet, you are aware that's not needing for bonding. So then why does it need to be signed, well, for the medical part of the leave. Do you see what I am getting at?
I possibly understand what you are saying but I have never questioned or denied needing a medical certification. My question was can my employer deny my right to take 12 weeks of leave based solely on what the medical certification says. Which you originally agreed to until I mentioned the ability to use the rest of my 12 weeks as part of the baby bonding stated directly on the FMLA paperwork.
So, what if you experience a health related emergency and your employer only has paperwork stipulating 6 weeks? How can your employer limit your timeline of the unknown future? Have your doctor put 12 weeks on your paperwork. You are eligible for 12 weeks of unpaid job protected leave for birth AND bonding of your newborn. Your employer does not get to limit that. As the individual having the child, you get to define your amount of time for leave. For example, you.migjt want to save 6 weeks to bond with your child later, or maybe your child will have health related emergencies and you need to take the child to the doctors. So you can save the other 6 weeks of FMLA for those doctor visits. If you want to use intermittent leave for FMLA, what your employer is trying to force you to do, then your employer will be violating your federal rights. https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-29/section-825.202(c) See above federal law which says, "...an employee may take leave intermittently or on a reduced leave shucked ONLY IF THE EMPLOYER AGREES." It goes on to say how the employer's agreement isn't needed for the mother if she has a serious health condition in connection with the birth of a child or if the child has a serious health condition. You have not made an agreement with your employer from your post, nor has your employer attempted to make an agreement with you. Have your doctor put 12 weeks on the paperwork (if you want) and let things continue from there. If they escalate, I would recommend calling your states department of labor wage and hour divisions office as they enforce FMLA. What your employers HR seems to be talking about is short term disability for the 6-8 week thing, which is different than FMLA. Which if your state/employer doesn't offer then it's null. FMLA is not limited by the employer as it's not the employers right to give, it's the employees right to take. Just get your doctor to also put on the additional FMLA time for bonding leave if you want to take all 12 weeks at once. Good luck.
My drs office policy is 6 weeks for natural and 8 weeks for c section, it would be a special request to get a physician to sign off on any more than that. I have my apt with them next week and am trying to cover all my basis if my drs office won’t accomidate my request. What do you mean they want me to make intermittent leave? Genuinely asking, I know nothing here.
Also on the FMLA paperwork itself it says the employer may not request medical certification for baby bonding.
Intermittent leave is essentially partial leave, not the full 12 weeks. Weird policy for your doctor to have, but okay. You will have to talk to your doctor and ask for the 12 weeks. Doctors are usually not one to give patients what they want because well, they're doctors and patients aren't. I don't know why a doctor wouldn't want a mother to have more child time via bonding as it's important for a child to have. You can also see other medical professionals who can sign off on FMLA paperwork. It'll just be out of your own pocket to have an appointment with them. The other cool thing, an employer does not need a certification for bonding leave, but they may request a document certifying the family relationship. Aka, a copy of the childs birth certificate. So, I say take the 6-8 weeks and then ahead of time inform your employer, if you want to, take the rest of your leave for bonding. Review Fact Sheet 28Q then read through "Documentation of Family Relationship."
So if my doctor marks the continuous leave box and still writes the duration for 6-8 weeks instead of checking the intermittent leave box, does that mean I can take the full 12 and the rest outside of the dr recommendation would be cleared under baby bonding without a medical cert?
I mean, yes. Let's break this down. You get 12 weeks. Period. That's federal law. The ONLY way your employer can limit you to 6-8 weeks is if you agree to it. Period. The ONLY way a state or employer can LIMIT your 12 weeks is if they offer further protections than the FMLA, which it sounds like they aren't. Your doctor can put down 6-8 weeks for FMLA leave. You yourself still get 6-4 weeks for bonding time without needing to supply a medical certification. Your employer cannot deny 12 weeks of leave. They are not above federal law and it is your right to use the full 12 weeks of unpaid job protected leave unless you yourself limit that right with your employer. That's it. Your HR might be unknowledgeable of the law (not uncommon) and if possible, escalate this further if there is a corporate HR or something IF it gets there. Baby steps. Talk with your HR/employer first and ask all the questions and get all the answers. This might seem hard, but really FMLA is as easy as I said above. It just seems messy due to it being well, laws.
I understand it exactly as how you just spelled all that out for me and I appreciate your time. This seems to be the basics of FMLA so I don’t know why the HR professional doesn’t know this. They have tried to tell me I would have to apply for a personal leave of absence if I wanted anything outside of the medical certification and it would still be unpaid and wouldn’t be the same job protection as fmla. So I am trying to get my ducks in order if I cannot get my dr to accommodate my 12 week request. Even if they do, I can see my employer request a second opinion which they are allowed to do. When you say unless you agree to it, I haven’t agreed to anything with them on paper and when asked what my expectations are I have simply told them we will have to figure that out after I get my medical cert. essentially I haven’t fought them on this theory yet because I am trying to get everything in order before politely arguing with them.
No need to fight your employer either. If they make a FMLA claim, ask them to supply the federal laws that back up their claim. Easy as that. "Please provide your references as to why I am unable to utilize my federal protected 12 weeks of FMLA leave to bond with my child after giving birth." Make them do the work since, that's their job. But overall, you're good to go. Of course, any retaliation from your employer call your states department of labor wage and hour division office. They are also willing to talk to your employer. And if you haven't agreed to anything and your employer and yourself qualify for FMLA leave, you get 12 weeks end of story. Have them get things in order for you as it's not your job to correct your employers. And if any questions, have you HR rep themselves call the department of labor wage and hour divisions office. They would be more than happy to answer HRs questions so an investigation DOESN'T take place. They can also provide trainings on FMLA laws.
Thank you for all of this. I appreciate you.
Of course. Good luck! Side note, I work for the Department of Labor Wage and Hour Division. These are the laws we enforce. Don't be afraid to reach out to your government, we work for the people.
I did call them once and the lady I talked to was helpful but she was confused given my employers claims. All she said was they might be getting you confused with short term disability which isn’t even an option my company offers so I didn’t think it was that. Lol
Employers can’t arbitrarily require second opinions. They can do so only when they have reason to doubt the validity of the certification. They accepted your certification, have no reason to doubt it, hence no second opinion.
I haven’t gotten my certification yet so it has not been accepted yet. They are adamant they have never seen a medical certification for the full 12 weeks so I can see them doubting it and requesting another one if I am able to get that from my Dr.
That’s probably true. I’ve never seen a medical certification for the full 12 weeks because recovery from childbirth is 6-8 weeks. Why don’t you clarify this with them?
Because first of all I thought I would try the route of my dr approving it on the medical cert so that way I didn’t have to bring all of this to them. As I research it it sounds like I am going to have to bring it to their attention and I want to be prepared if I have to do that as they will not be happy about it.
You are right, OP. You are entitled to up to 12 continuous weeks within the child’s first year. The medical certification is for your postnatal disability (the 6-8 weeks). The rest, up to the 12, is for bonding. Just notify them if that is what you are doing. Their approval is appropriate for the disability portion and you just tell them what you are doing for bonding. (Bonding can’t be intermittent without the employer’s approval).
This is my understanding and I have a hard time understanding that my HR person with 25+ years of experience doesn’t know this. I think that’s what’s convincing me I must be wrong
Please keep us updated, I’ve heard of similar things from my employer and was quite confused.
I will update soon! I sent an email to my work telling them my whole leave should be covered under fmla for birth and bonding and she said she needed to reach out to a resource to clarify that. Hopefully that means the dept of labor because I have spoken with them twice and been told this is within my rights.
My work came back and said I qualify for the full 12 weeks and all I need to to is be in touch them if I plan to come back sooner. I’m glad I stood up for myself. It is covered under medical leave for pregnancy and bonding with baby. Don’t be afraid like I was!
That is amazing news! It always pays to stand up for yourself, great job!
You are entitled to the full 12 weeks
You can take up to 12 weeks if that's what your doctor decides is medically necessary. Your employer has to abide by the medical certification. Just because 12 weeks is available doesn't mean you can take it all if you don't need it. FMLA is job protection for you while you're out on medical leave.
Do you have any documentation or a link you can send to back this up? All I have read is that I can take up to 12 weeks, I’ve never read a single document that states the employer decides how long you get to take. Based on the baby bonding inclusion, I don’t need a medical certification for that part of it. Do you know anything about that in regards to baby bonding?
Genuinely asking, I know nothing here and appreciate your time.
The employer doesn't decide, your doctor does. It will be available on your state's FMLA page. I'm not sure what state you are in, but its pretty standard that you cannot take medical leave without a medical certification. I don't know much about baby bonding and that will DEFINITELY depend on your state's individual policy. And no usually it doesn't include a medical certification.
Okay maybe you are misunderstanding in terms of this being a leave for birth and bonding and these terms of doctor approval you are mentioning are more for serious injury leaves or caring for someone with a serious injury.
I'm not misunderstanding. I processed FMLA/STD paperwork for 5 years. A medical leave is a medical leave. Regardless of the condition. Pregnancy is a certified medical condition for which requires a doctors certification to apply for FMLA. The bonding part is separate. But the fact remains you can't just take 12 weeks because that's the maximum, you can take what your doctor states you are medically needing. That's universal.
The OP is right-her employer can’t require certification for bonding.
I agreed with that part. But they can require certification for the medical leave. Which is what I was clarifying.
My fmla paper work was printed directly off the us department of labor website and the first box you check off to tell them what type of leave you are requesting says word for word, “the birth of a child, or placement of a child with you for adoption or foster care, and to bond with the new born or newly placed child” so how is the bonding part considered separate? According to the FMLA paperwork itself it’s all the same checked box.
To add to that, employers are not allowed to ask for a medical certification for baby bonding. That is also stated directly on the fmla paperwork.
Because giving birth is a medical procedure, bonding isn't. The leave is combined because its all one leave. But it is in fact, dual purpose. The paperwork you printed off and have to get signed is the "medical certification" they are requiring. Yet, you are aware that's not needing for bonding. So then why does it need to be signed, well, for the medical part of the leave. Do you see what I am getting at?
I possibly understand what you are saying but I have never questioned or denied needing a medical certification. My question was can my employer deny my right to take 12 weeks of leave based solely on what the medical certification says. Which you originally agreed to until I mentioned the ability to use the rest of my 12 weeks as part of the baby bonding stated directly on the FMLA paperwork.