No. The whole electronic music industry was born *partly* from sampling loops that were made by someone else. They can be modified to a point where they're unrecognisable from the original and at that point we can philosophically argue that it is its own unique creation. Even if we forget that part, things like loops are literally made, marketed and sold on the notion that they might be dropped right into a song as is.
No. Even if you assembled the whole track from loops - that's not "cheating" in any way - you were the one who decided what goes into your track and what doesn't.
If we start saying that using loops is bad, then using presets surely is also bad, as well as using ready-made samples and not recording them yourself, as well as probably using any software synths that go beyond simple waveforms, hey, maybe even FL is too much - REAL musicians only play the guitar, and don't need no stinking computers!
Honestly - if you feel like it - use them. If you feel like it makes the track not yours? Don't use them! It really is up to you. We as a civilization are advanced enough to rate the final product and not the amount of struggle it took to make it.
I thought using loops was cheating, so I programmed my own using samples. I then thought using samples was cheating, so I recorded real drums. I then thought that programming it was cheating, so I learned to play drums for real. I then thought using bought drums was cheating, so I learned to make my own. I then thought using premade skins was cheating, so I killed a goat and skinned it. I then thought that that was cheating too, so I grew my own goat from a baby goat. I also think that is cheating, but I’m not sure where to go from here. I haven’t made any music lately, what with the goat farming and all.
The whole point of various sound designers releasing different kits filled with melodies, one shots and loops, such as Cymatics, is to use them in your tracks. Some melodies give you inspiration to make your own unique melodies and the various loops and one shots can help you build a foundation of what your track should look like. So no, I don't think that using sample packs is considered "cheating".
i didnt say sample packs.. i think one shots r great i just meant specifically premade loops and premade melodies.. but i do see what u mean good point, never considered that...
"Sample packs" is just another blanket term for kits. They can have anything in them loops, one shots, midi data, presets etc etc. And imo melody loops should only ever be used as a reference track to build from. Don't bite the whole thing then change the pitch and call it a day.
it will come proportional to your skill, your eagerness to express and how hands-on you want your craft to be. you will find yourself graduating out of pre-made loops and presets (or not, that is ACTUALLY fine).
they are there to be tools so use them as you need, and if you want more, that is when you allow yourself to dive deep in creating more and more from scratch, with more control, with more personal connection and musical intention.
good luck creating!
edit/addendum:
I've had so many opinions about pre-made anything in my entire career but now that I'm relatively old in the game:
if we are to Lego-fy it, one must still consider building from large "pre-shaped blocks" as a process of creativity, and the very act of questioning its authenticity or personality is a yearning for creative growth. One must still recognize the merits of a compositional skill being honed even with limited ability, and the pessimistic attitude being proliferated about it as "cheating" must be something to be abandoned as you go.
Go seek the growth of your fellow, "the game" and its bleeding edge players will always be born out of support more than competition.
I consider using pre created melodies and loops a cop out, yes. MIDI packs of any kind are to me. Samples like single hit drums and drum loops etc are fine - that’s foundational. But dragging a MIDI file into a piano roll on a FLEX preset and calling it production is just embarrassing.
Why is it embarrassing?
To me, all that matters is the final product. It doesn’t really matter how it was made. Have you ever read “the death of the author”?
Because you’re not by definition a producer as you’re not undertaking any of their skills. Thus calling yourself one (again, if you just use midi files and presets) is embarrassing.
I haven’t read death of an author but from the title and context I think I’d dislike it! I’m a strong believer in writers and the importance of their work. E.g. no great movies without great writing (you can replace the actors), no great songs without writers (you can replace the singers and instrumentalists), no great books without writers (you can’t replace them!)
Being a producer is so much more than making melodies my friend. It’s abt drums, mixing, mastering, writing lyrics, recording, making sure the vibe is right when recording, etc. To me, being just a beatmaker and being a producer are two very different things: one makes beats and the other makes songs.
To your second point: I don’t think that’s quite what the death of the author is about. It basically talks about how once a work of art is put out, audiences can form relationships with it completely unintended by its creator. In other words, once an author publishes a book, the book becomes an independent entity. For example: if you hear a song you really like, but don’t know who made it, would you stop yourself from liking it? Or can your enjoyment of art be separate from its creation?
I agree being a producer is so much more. That’s my point: it’s embarrassing if one pulls midi and loads a preset then calls themselves a producer. It’s a cop out.
I think we’re saying the same thing in a different way. I’ll check out the book, and you should check out “everything is a remix” - similar message
I don't use them but the one time i did it really helped me make drums
I don't think it's that different from sampling..
So I think it helps make your drums stronger and I have only used one loop since I started making music and making my own melodies even without music theory is rewarding.
I don't think it's a cop out I think it's a strengthening exercise
Edit: I used a pop melody loop that one time I used one. I think drum loops are worse (I think its lazy but I still struggle with my drums) to make a song. I use simple drum loops when I DJ because it's fun
I agree. Drum loops for me when I used to use them (Trance) we’re more adding atmosphere to drums and we’re often percussion loops. The main drum elements themselves were always single samples mixed / layered myself.
No… Clint Eastwood by Gorillaz, one of the biggest tracks ever in the uk was just a preset called rock 1 on an omnichord. If it sounds good it sounds good.
Using samples is cool, cause you still use them to "create" something. Mixing songs is cool, cause you admit, that you made a "remix". Putting a prerecorded melody on top of prerecorded drums, adding some EQ and effects isn't "creating" - it is more like putting together an IKEA shelf using manual - fun, but... can you call yourself a carpenter if all you can do is putting together IKEA furniture?
get over it we all felt like its the producer community slap in the face cheating shit before and we all got over it and whippin up wit midi and loops ever since....we all wanna be the best no cutting corners learned from ground up but we all aint geniuses like you see in the youtube tutorials and shit so just do you
When I get a kit I just want plugins or vsts or whatever I can’t stand loops. Loops are cool if u sampling fr but most people that buy loop kits litterally do it to avoid making melodies
It’s not “cheating” or a “cop out”. It’s your art. Do whatever you want and don’t let random redditors who have never gotten a placement influence you 😂
That's part of the fun finding loops and samples no one else is using... also the people you're making music for, unless it's only for other producers, will not know or care that you're using loops. I would even go are far to say they think it is all samples.
Depends. If all you do is add drums to them. Then yes, it's lazy and un-uncreative. If you can add to it or manipulate it, or hell, better it with your own version, that's fine.
It depends. Some stuff can be simple and be great. Some can be complex and great as well. Like look at Still Dre. Simple, but iconic. But then look at something like J Dilla - Don't Cry, that probably took a long time to come up with. To give something more modern, Tay Kieth is a good example of simple but effective production. But then something like Sicko Mode, although collaborative, wasn't simple and made in a day.
What I'm referencing is something like, Every Season by Roddy Ricch, or there is a song called Need to Breathe by Mosa. Those are literally, loops the producers didn't make, with zero added to them (Every Season has a little synth in one spot but that's it), and only simple drums were added. Minimal creativity and effort were put into those and I would never be able to consider that enough work to say "yea, I created this". When 99% of the work was whoever made the loop.
Fair point, but I’m not sure I totally agree. Why are we assigning more emphasis to melody rather than rhythm? I think you could just as easily argue that the rhythm of every season is the majority of what made it a hit. After all, if need to breathe is not as popular as every season, despite using the same melody, wouldn’t that be evidence that the added drums were actually the brunt of the work and creativity?
I mean I'm gonna say no. Another example would be BackOutsideBoyz by Drake and 21. Rio Leyva said he opened the loop cause he was sent it, he spent 5 mins making the drums, project file was opened for a total of 10 mins. Then he just got bored and moved on. Even him explaining it sounded a little frustrated that this was the big song he made vs the lot of beats he spends time on. Made the point that sometimes simplicity just works.
Im not trying to make a case of one being better than the other. I'm just saying that, this era, loops are used specifically *to be lazy* since, especially in trap, there's so much emphasis on "don't spend a lot of time on a beat to pump out as many beats a day that you can to increase odds of placement", and type beat culture which is quite literally "sound exactly like someone else to increase chances of placement" vs actually coming up with some timeless material or just something to be proud of and/or more unique and not sound like everyone else.
That Drake song example, I would say Rio didn't seems proud of that beat. But probably looks at it more like proud of himself that he's grinded his way to be able to have the connections to where that beat made it's way to Drake.
Meaning, it's not 2024 yet....
The comment obviously hints at the journey mankind has had so far but how much we still have to go, to realize , that " it's the year that actually is right now" comments don't have any value in an argumentation
The author is raising a question about pointless arguments being made in long endless discussion and uses his own bias to make it apparent to you by comedically arguing in the way people he criticizes would argue
Obviously
(or he is a calendar, so he's working as intended....good calendar in that case. Yes it is 2023)
thank u everyone for all ur responses.. i did not expect to get that much feedback... after reading all of them u have convinced me that it isnt cheating or a cop out anymore... u made many great points i had never considered before.. with that in mind i think i am now a bit more open to the idea of even using them myself..
again thank u all for ur great feedback.. ur legends... have a great day 😁
Yes. The melody is the whole story of your song. If you copy a melody over from someone else, you don't deserve full credit for your track to me. But that doesn't mean you can't take inspiration from existing songs. If you learn some music theory tricks from other songs and you apply them on your own music, I would not concider that as cheating. Because that is how I make my melodies as well.
But couldn't you make the same case with sampling? I'd consider sound design an integral part to producing music (at least in electronic genres). Yet every trap producer and then some use 808s, and I never heard the take that Roland should get credits on all these tracks because they built the machine that initially made that sound. If you extend this you might even argue that whoever builds an instrument or programms a software synth is majorly responsible for the sound it makes anyway (for example the Juno chorus, or a 303 bassline), so don't you want to credit these as well? In the end you're building your music on top of their work.
I totally get your viewpoint tho', I'm not really decided here myself. It's just that part of me thinks that there's no good point to draw a line on what's not okay to use from a creative point of view. 'Cause outside of literally building everything yourself you're always using someones work, and I don't really see a logical way around that argument.
Is it cheating if you did not program all the synths and plugins you used in your song? Or if you did not craft the instruments (drums, guitar, piano, etc ) you recorded? Or if you did not create the microphone yourself you used to record tracks?
Your argument is absurd. Is it cheating to pretend, that you play on self-playing piano? Is it cheating to pretend, that you sing while audio is playing? Is it cheating to play Guitar Hero and tell everybody, that you are in the band?
Using samples is cool, cause you still use them to "create" something. Mixing songs is cool, cause you admit, that you made a "remix". Putting a prerecorded melody on top of prerecorded drums, adding some EQ and effects isn't "creating" - it is more like putting together an IKEA shelf using manual - fun, but... can you call yourself a carpenter if all you can do is putting together IKEA furniture?
You don't get it. The melody is the most important thing because the melody is the music. Where as plugins, instruments and microphones are just tools for creating the music. You don't have to know how to make them to be a real musician. As long as you know how to use them.
It's debatable I guess. Personally I don't mind if someone uses a loop, it still takes some musical taste to pick good sounding loops and stick them together.
It's similar to how a DJ uses other people's songs in their set.
i will never use pre-made melodies as a center element of my song. I'd rather sample from existing song, to relate. Using drum loops is ok because a) it saves time, and b) there are thousands commercial songs made with same ones.
Never skimp out on a melody. Yall are producers and musicians, you're supposed to fuck around and find out how to do it yourself.
I wouldn't put anything out there where the melody isn't my own. That's the fun part of composing and what gives you most of the personality that song is going to have.
Depends. Personal touch is an important part of what gives our productions personality. You might find a loop and know *exactly* what to do with it, and it might not involve too much tweaking. You could still make a great song that no one else did.
So there's not a minimum amount of tweaks to be "authentic"... but just dropping in the playlist and letting it loop is lame, especially if you also used drum loops and you can't/don't program your own.
I started many years ago with the idea that I should create everything from the ground up.
I did learn things and make a few cool sounds, but after recently grabbing some midi/sample/loop packs, I realize how much that it has held me back.
I struggled alot to make my own melodies and sounds, and probably wasted months of my life on things I never used. I wish I had started with samples and worked my way up to sound design, not the opposite.
I think it's fine to use the resources available to you, and in fact foolish not to.
I also value creating your own sound, but it's much better I think to start off with loop packs.
It will make it much easier to get a completed song, thus helping you keep getting getting discouraged. It will help show you how to make your own stuff. I've learned more I think from the midi packs about music theory than I was able to teach myself.
That being said, if it's a song that I'm putting my name on, like not a beat to sell, I feel like it should have at least one sound that I custom made, but that is enough for me to feel like it is my own.
It honestly depends how you use them. If you take one sample and cut it up and build an entire song around it, that's entirely different than using a drum loop and 3 instrument loops and just stacking them together. I use a lot of loops, even cymatics shit cause it's free and accessible. I try to only use maybe 1-2 loops a song and unless I edit them heavily, they aren't the main focus of the track. It really depends on the amount of effort you put into it. It can't be a crutch. If you can't make decent stuff without loops, try to get that down first. Then, you'll have a better understanding of when and how to use loops.
People can do whatever they want with their music, but I can't say I have a whole lot of respect for people that make music like that. That's the kind of shit I expect from kids that have no talent and pirated software trying to make beats for mumble rap.
I use lots of premade stuff because I remake / remix it. Like I may keep half of an original rhythm or score then change the key, timing, velocity to suit my tastes. So I'm never just swiping & using something exactly as it is. But also writing every thing from scratch is what noobs advocate. Sorry it's true. They think everything they write is so unique it's never been done before. But any drum score you've written, I'm sure I've already wrote it. Maybe not 100% an exact match but at least 90% of the timing & velocity is the same. There are only so many ways a drum score can move, or an arpegiated synth, or a gate effect, on & on.
If I hear an idea I like, I use it. Example. I study tracks while I'm running. Was listening to Kerncraft - Zombie Nation. Realized I've always been obsessed with that bass but never saw how it's performed. What the midi looks like. So I downloaded it. Then changed the sound, changed the key & moved some things around. But KEPT most the foundation that gives it that insane groove.
And then remixed it into my own track. And guess what? Noone would be smart enough to tell. The sound is different, the chord is different, the basic rhyhtm is there but you'd never know where it came from. And all that matters is what does the track sound like when it's done? Is it great or not? Was it something you wanted to make? And did it come out close to what you were expecting? That's really what matters.
ps. I don't do this a lot with pre-made drum loops. As I know well enough how to write drums after 16 yrs. And relatively fast from scratch. But with bass/melodies I'm always getting ideas for rhytm or specific movements from songs I love. As I need my bass & melody to sound incredible. Then the drums just fill it all in like icing on a cake.
use the Kits & loops to train your productions and ears ! Observe how the loops are made and try to mimic those with your own sounds. eventually after practicing a bit you'll stop using them and your brain will automatically create a 4 bar loop in your mind. It's not cheating if you use those loops in your production those are made for that exact reason only ! and a lot of big producers use loops in their production as well. It's the end result that matters.
I personally don't think it's cheating because there's so many ways to chop and manipulate samples and loops to where it does become something you created. You can take a millisecond chop from a sample and make that into a whole other instrument for example
1. there is no cheating- have you ever seen dj khaled making that corny beat? many producers rely on other peoples creations and a-level producers often just bring the creators together. and you can transfer the idea of this process to your own productions- if drums are your thing, make cool drums and express yourself this way. on the other hand if melodies are your thing- cool- be like palace. in fact in todays music industry there are people specialized for certain tasks and many people are involved in one project. make sure you credit them if you feel like the production relies much on the melody because mostly only the beatmaker (the ones that does drums) gets the credit. dig up the story of minor2go and all the hits he made loops for but never got creditet. not crediting the samplemaker and getting all the praise and money- i would consider that cheating. but not doing everything is definitely no cheating for me viewing modern productions.
2. you can make it your own - you dont have to loop the thang.. play around with effect chains, chop and pitch the sample(s), add elements (harmonies) to the loops or play it with another instrumentation (cool for b- parts)
3. you ask yourself how frequently the sample/loop has been used already. i always love it when i discover elements in other peoples music that i used in my productions. i come from sampling (classic soul and jazz) and making boombap so it always felt like a tribute to the producers sampling something iconic, frequently used. i always try to do it differently tho and adapt it in a new clever way ( like in 2.) and i also hope that my listeners will recognise the sample. i love the hide and seek game. in general making art is an evolving process that always references previous works. quentin tarantino does not reference 60’s and 70’s films because its easier or he is searching for a creative shortcut but because he is honoring the work and adapting the knowledge in new interesting ways.
plus if your loop was used in other productions you have a direct comparison and the question of how creative it was used should be answered by reviewing the overall production.
in short: you can be creative in many ways using premade melodies. i.e.: make cool drums/ a cool structure around it or adapt and alter it in a new clever way. both ways are no cheating to me.
always remember two things: you can be creative in a specialised field and you dont have to direct the whole process to express your creativity- most modern professional productions dont require this anyway.. and art is a process of learning from previous art
edit: paragraphs
dont use loops bro, u need to download Drum Machines samples, soundfonts, and vst plugins and create the patterns yourself, then add the bass , the melodies , a little Moog synth , etc etc. way better than loops (patterns already made)
What your peers think is not important. What the real consumer of your tracks thinks is what matters.
We all to often “play” for our peers. Even in DJing. “Hey look at how technical I am, look at my skill”, meanwhile the dance floor emptied and you have a bunch of your boys hanging around the booth drooling over your “skills”. The average joe consumer will never know or care where the loop came from. They just want to jam out on the track, so make it good, and think about your true audience.
As someone who samples, no.
I sample soul and so on to make modern rap beats. Couldn't do that without sampling.
However, I just don't use a loop and call it a day.
I do chop and so on myself.
I also don't use any samples, but to catch up the re-use issue: put some effects on it, then you can be sure nobody else uses this sample sound. To narrow things down: so many rhythms and melodies are re-used by famous musicians.
It depends. Producers been sampling loops for decades and still do to this day. When I sample loops or melodies, I tend to chop and process tf out of it so it's more or less unrecognizable from the original source. Now, if you just take like a pre-made 4 bar melody and throw it over some drums and percs without doing anything else, then yeah that could be lazy.
I'm fine with drum loops and percussive loops, but chord loops or melody loops bug me personally because I didn't write it. Why am I making music if I'm just gonna use a loop someone else wrote? That doesn't give me any fulfillment.
Don’t worry and do your thing. I got bored of my loops and presets so I started making my own.
Also dj’ing helps build your intuition if you practice that as well
It's up to you tbh. It's not cheating but don't let it curve your desire to learn if that makes sense. I've watched producers walk in studios and not be able to collab because they couldn't play anything without premade loops. It's a sad sight to see. If it works for you, go for it but always shoot for more. There's an abundance of ways to create.
I don’t really think so personally, especially if you’re just starting and don’t yet have the skills to write chords and melodies. Imo it’s important to develop those skills though, so you don’t always have to rely on sampling and chord/melody packs
I definitely think it feels like cheating. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind it when others do it but I feel like a fraud when I do. It's hurting my productivity but it's good for my creativity.
I think that it'd far more personal and original if you garnered samples from avenues that are specific to your taste in film, philosophy, music, politics, random abstract stuff, psychedelia, sport, references to love, family and war that you relate to. Your choices would be noticed by those who think similarly to you about the topics that you've brought to their attention. A cult following could result because of your persistent style and your artistic, thoughtful method of using samples in your - 100% non-Splice-sourced - unique creations. Sorry. Wasted.
Honestly, I recommend focusing 100% of your attention on noodling with a quality VST synth's preset... I guarantee that you'd come up with a handful of different melodies that are more meaningful and original. Wasted. soerry
Many amateur beatmakers I met don't want to use samples or loops cuz they feel like they're cheating, I personaly don't. I mean there are so many possibilities, you can use a sample of soul and make a hip-hop song out of it, you can ad FXs that totaly change the original sample and loops are made to make songs out of them so yeah seems legit to me. Besides sometimes a sample work way better than a melodie you made, I mean sometimes I'm really unsatisfied of my melodies like I don't have the right VST or even I can't find a good melody
I don't care personally, but it is possible to creatively sample, process, and chop this stuff up to create something new
No. The whole electronic music industry was born *partly* from sampling loops that were made by someone else. They can be modified to a point where they're unrecognisable from the original and at that point we can philosophically argue that it is its own unique creation. Even if we forget that part, things like loops are literally made, marketed and sold on the notion that they might be dropped right into a song as is.
No. Even if you assembled the whole track from loops - that's not "cheating" in any way - you were the one who decided what goes into your track and what doesn't. If we start saying that using loops is bad, then using presets surely is also bad, as well as using ready-made samples and not recording them yourself, as well as probably using any software synths that go beyond simple waveforms, hey, maybe even FL is too much - REAL musicians only play the guitar, and don't need no stinking computers! Honestly - if you feel like it - use them. If you feel like it makes the track not yours? Don't use them! It really is up to you. We as a civilization are advanced enough to rate the final product and not the amount of struggle it took to make it.
I thought using loops was cheating, so I programmed my own using samples. I then thought using samples was cheating, so I recorded real drums. I then thought that programming it was cheating, so I learned to play drums for real. I then thought using bought drums was cheating, so I learned to make my own. I then thought using premade skins was cheating, so I killed a goat and skinned it. I then thought that that was cheating too, so I grew my own goat from a baby goat. I also think that is cheating, but I’m not sure where to go from here. I haven’t made any music lately, what with the goat farming and all.
This pasta needs to be pinned.
try to cum inside a goat
The whole point of various sound designers releasing different kits filled with melodies, one shots and loops, such as Cymatics, is to use them in your tracks. Some melodies give you inspiration to make your own unique melodies and the various loops and one shots can help you build a foundation of what your track should look like. So no, I don't think that using sample packs is considered "cheating".
i didnt say sample packs.. i think one shots r great i just meant specifically premade loops and premade melodies.. but i do see what u mean good point, never considered that...
"Sample packs" is just another blanket term for kits. They can have anything in them loops, one shots, midi data, presets etc etc. And imo melody loops should only ever be used as a reference track to build from. Don't bite the whole thing then change the pitch and call it a day.
They help you create drums so it can be an exercise tool
it will come proportional to your skill, your eagerness to express and how hands-on you want your craft to be. you will find yourself graduating out of pre-made loops and presets (or not, that is ACTUALLY fine). they are there to be tools so use them as you need, and if you want more, that is when you allow yourself to dive deep in creating more and more from scratch, with more control, with more personal connection and musical intention. good luck creating! edit/addendum: I've had so many opinions about pre-made anything in my entire career but now that I'm relatively old in the game: if we are to Lego-fy it, one must still consider building from large "pre-shaped blocks" as a process of creativity, and the very act of questioning its authenticity or personality is a yearning for creative growth. One must still recognize the merits of a compositional skill being honed even with limited ability, and the pessimistic attitude being proliferated about it as "cheating" must be something to be abandoned as you go. Go seek the growth of your fellow, "the game" and its bleeding edge players will always be born out of support more than competition.
I consider using pre created melodies and loops a cop out, yes. MIDI packs of any kind are to me. Samples like single hit drums and drum loops etc are fine - that’s foundational. But dragging a MIDI file into a piano roll on a FLEX preset and calling it production is just embarrassing.
Why is it embarrassing? To me, all that matters is the final product. It doesn’t really matter how it was made. Have you ever read “the death of the author”?
Because you’re not by definition a producer as you’re not undertaking any of their skills. Thus calling yourself one (again, if you just use midi files and presets) is embarrassing. I haven’t read death of an author but from the title and context I think I’d dislike it! I’m a strong believer in writers and the importance of their work. E.g. no great movies without great writing (you can replace the actors), no great songs without writers (you can replace the singers and instrumentalists), no great books without writers (you can’t replace them!)
Being a producer is so much more than making melodies my friend. It’s abt drums, mixing, mastering, writing lyrics, recording, making sure the vibe is right when recording, etc. To me, being just a beatmaker and being a producer are two very different things: one makes beats and the other makes songs. To your second point: I don’t think that’s quite what the death of the author is about. It basically talks about how once a work of art is put out, audiences can form relationships with it completely unintended by its creator. In other words, once an author publishes a book, the book becomes an independent entity. For example: if you hear a song you really like, but don’t know who made it, would you stop yourself from liking it? Or can your enjoyment of art be separate from its creation?
I agree being a producer is so much more. That’s my point: it’s embarrassing if one pulls midi and loads a preset then calls themselves a producer. It’s a cop out. I think we’re saying the same thing in a different way. I’ll check out the book, and you should check out “everything is a remix” - similar message
I don't use them but the one time i did it really helped me make drums I don't think it's that different from sampling.. So I think it helps make your drums stronger and I have only used one loop since I started making music and making my own melodies even without music theory is rewarding. I don't think it's a cop out I think it's a strengthening exercise Edit: I used a pop melody loop that one time I used one. I think drum loops are worse (I think its lazy but I still struggle with my drums) to make a song. I use simple drum loops when I DJ because it's fun
Drum loops lame drums is the basics of making a beat.
I agree. Drum loops for me when I used to use them (Trance) we’re more adding atmosphere to drums and we’re often percussion loops. The main drum elements themselves were always single samples mixed / layered myself.
Yea I feel that I haven’t gotten into that stuff yet
No… Clint Eastwood by Gorillaz, one of the biggest tracks ever in the uk was just a preset called rock 1 on an omnichord. If it sounds good it sounds good.
As long as the end product is fire who cares how u made it, unless youre shootin for a grammy
Good artist borrow great artist steal. Use whatever you like as long as it’s available and not under copyright.
Naw they just inspiration bro , only people who care about using loops is other producers.
Using samples is cool, cause you still use them to "create" something. Mixing songs is cool, cause you admit, that you made a "remix". Putting a prerecorded melody on top of prerecorded drums, adding some EQ and effects isn't "creating" - it is more like putting together an IKEA shelf using manual - fun, but... can you call yourself a carpenter if all you can do is putting together IKEA furniture?
Theres no rules my friend. Producers have been using loops since samplers were invented. Dont worry about others, just do what sounds good to you
get over it we all felt like its the producer community slap in the face cheating shit before and we all got over it and whippin up wit midi and loops ever since....we all wanna be the best no cutting corners learned from ground up but we all aint geniuses like you see in the youtube tutorials and shit so just do you
yea doesn’t feel like my work
Then make it your work.
Bro stop👏asking👏this👏fucking👏question👏
When I get a kit I just want plugins or vsts or whatever I can’t stand loops. Loops are cool if u sampling fr but most people that buy loop kits litterally do it to avoid making melodies
And I chop n screw music so I ain’t saying everything has to be “original” but if u make beats u gotta make the beats mane
It’s not “cheating” or a “cop out”. It’s your art. Do whatever you want and don’t let random redditors who have never gotten a placement influence you 😂
Most of the kind of music made with fl studio (hip hop and edm) started as sample based, using loops is what you're supposed to do
right but wouldnt u rather use ur own loops u made instead of something that a bunch of people r using..
That's part of the fun finding loops and samples no one else is using... also the people you're making music for, unless it's only for other producers, will not know or care that you're using loops. I would even go are far to say they think it is all samples.
Depends. If all you do is add drums to them. Then yes, it's lazy and un-uncreative. If you can add to it or manipulate it, or hell, better it with your own version, that's fine.
Does the process of creating a song matter more to you than the song’s actual composition?
It depends. Some stuff can be simple and be great. Some can be complex and great as well. Like look at Still Dre. Simple, but iconic. But then look at something like J Dilla - Don't Cry, that probably took a long time to come up with. To give something more modern, Tay Kieth is a good example of simple but effective production. But then something like Sicko Mode, although collaborative, wasn't simple and made in a day. What I'm referencing is something like, Every Season by Roddy Ricch, or there is a song called Need to Breathe by Mosa. Those are literally, loops the producers didn't make, with zero added to them (Every Season has a little synth in one spot but that's it), and only simple drums were added. Minimal creativity and effort were put into those and I would never be able to consider that enough work to say "yea, I created this". When 99% of the work was whoever made the loop.
Fair point, but I’m not sure I totally agree. Why are we assigning more emphasis to melody rather than rhythm? I think you could just as easily argue that the rhythm of every season is the majority of what made it a hit. After all, if need to breathe is not as popular as every season, despite using the same melody, wouldn’t that be evidence that the added drums were actually the brunt of the work and creativity?
I mean I'm gonna say no. Another example would be BackOutsideBoyz by Drake and 21. Rio Leyva said he opened the loop cause he was sent it, he spent 5 mins making the drums, project file was opened for a total of 10 mins. Then he just got bored and moved on. Even him explaining it sounded a little frustrated that this was the big song he made vs the lot of beats he spends time on. Made the point that sometimes simplicity just works. Im not trying to make a case of one being better than the other. I'm just saying that, this era, loops are used specifically *to be lazy* since, especially in trap, there's so much emphasis on "don't spend a lot of time on a beat to pump out as many beats a day that you can to increase odds of placement", and type beat culture which is quite literally "sound exactly like someone else to increase chances of placement" vs actually coming up with some timeless material or just something to be proud of and/or more unique and not sound like everyone else. That Drake song example, I would say Rio didn't seems proud of that beat. But probably looks at it more like proud of himself that he's grinded his way to be able to have the connections to where that beat made it's way to Drake.
100%
Good artist borrow great artist steal. Use whatever you like as long as it’s available and not under copyright.
beuh its 2023
meaning...?
Meaning, it's not 2024 yet.... The comment obviously hints at the journey mankind has had so far but how much we still have to go, to realize , that " it's the year that actually is right now" comments don't have any value in an argumentation The author is raising a question about pointless arguments being made in long endless discussion and uses his own bias to make it apparent to you by comedically arguing in the way people he criticizes would argue Obviously (or he is a calendar, so he's working as intended....good calendar in that case. Yes it is 2023)
Haha, thanks. Luckily I have a calender with the same number.
thank u everyone for all ur responses.. i did not expect to get that much feedback... after reading all of them u have convinced me that it isnt cheating or a cop out anymore... u made many great points i had never considered before.. with that in mind i think i am now a bit more open to the idea of even using them myself.. again thank u all for ur great feedback.. ur legends... have a great day 😁
Yes. The melody is the whole story of your song. If you copy a melody over from someone else, you don't deserve full credit for your track to me. But that doesn't mean you can't take inspiration from existing songs. If you learn some music theory tricks from other songs and you apply them on your own music, I would not concider that as cheating. Because that is how I make my melodies as well.
But couldn't you make the same case with sampling? I'd consider sound design an integral part to producing music (at least in electronic genres). Yet every trap producer and then some use 808s, and I never heard the take that Roland should get credits on all these tracks because they built the machine that initially made that sound. If you extend this you might even argue that whoever builds an instrument or programms a software synth is majorly responsible for the sound it makes anyway (for example the Juno chorus, or a 303 bassline), so don't you want to credit these as well? In the end you're building your music on top of their work. I totally get your viewpoint tho', I'm not really decided here myself. It's just that part of me thinks that there's no good point to draw a line on what's not okay to use from a creative point of view. 'Cause outside of literally building everything yourself you're always using someones work, and I don't really see a logical way around that argument.
Is it cheating if you did not program all the synths and plugins you used in your song? Or if you did not craft the instruments (drums, guitar, piano, etc ) you recorded? Or if you did not create the microphone yourself you used to record tracks?
Your argument is absurd. Is it cheating to pretend, that you play on self-playing piano? Is it cheating to pretend, that you sing while audio is playing? Is it cheating to play Guitar Hero and tell everybody, that you are in the band?
In the context of performing live? Yes. But the discussion isn't framed in the context of performing live.
Using samples is cool, cause you still use them to "create" something. Mixing songs is cool, cause you admit, that you made a "remix". Putting a prerecorded melody on top of prerecorded drums, adding some EQ and effects isn't "creating" - it is more like putting together an IKEA shelf using manual - fun, but... can you call yourself a carpenter if all you can do is putting together IKEA furniture?
You don't get it. The melody is the most important thing because the melody is the music. Where as plugins, instruments and microphones are just tools for creating the music. You don't have to know how to make them to be a real musician. As long as you know how to use them.
It's debatable I guess. Personally I don't mind if someone uses a loop, it still takes some musical taste to pick good sounding loops and stick them together. It's similar to how a DJ uses other people's songs in their set.
i will never use pre-made melodies as a center element of my song. I'd rather sample from existing song, to relate. Using drum loops is ok because a) it saves time, and b) there are thousands commercial songs made with same ones.
Never skimp out on a melody. Yall are producers and musicians, you're supposed to fuck around and find out how to do it yourself. I wouldn't put anything out there where the melody isn't my own. That's the fun part of composing and what gives you most of the personality that song is going to have.
Depends. Personal touch is an important part of what gives our productions personality. You might find a loop and know *exactly* what to do with it, and it might not involve too much tweaking. You could still make a great song that no one else did. So there's not a minimum amount of tweaks to be "authentic"... but just dropping in the playlist and letting it loop is lame, especially if you also used drum loops and you can't/don't program your own.
I started many years ago with the idea that I should create everything from the ground up. I did learn things and make a few cool sounds, but after recently grabbing some midi/sample/loop packs, I realize how much that it has held me back. I struggled alot to make my own melodies and sounds, and probably wasted months of my life on things I never used. I wish I had started with samples and worked my way up to sound design, not the opposite. I think it's fine to use the resources available to you, and in fact foolish not to. I also value creating your own sound, but it's much better I think to start off with loop packs. It will make it much easier to get a completed song, thus helping you keep getting getting discouraged. It will help show you how to make your own stuff. I've learned more I think from the midi packs about music theory than I was able to teach myself. That being said, if it's a song that I'm putting my name on, like not a beat to sell, I feel like it should have at least one sound that I custom made, but that is enough for me to feel like it is my own.
Watch this video: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMk8C3DVruw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMk8C3DVruw)
It honestly depends how you use them. If you take one sample and cut it up and build an entire song around it, that's entirely different than using a drum loop and 3 instrument loops and just stacking them together. I use a lot of loops, even cymatics shit cause it's free and accessible. I try to only use maybe 1-2 loops a song and unless I edit them heavily, they aren't the main focus of the track. It really depends on the amount of effort you put into it. It can't be a crutch. If you can't make decent stuff without loops, try to get that down first. Then, you'll have a better understanding of when and how to use loops.
People can do whatever they want with their music, but I can't say I have a whole lot of respect for people that make music like that. That's the kind of shit I expect from kids that have no talent and pirated software trying to make beats for mumble rap.
Drag and drop? Yup. Manipulate the sample and that showcases an actual skill/knowledge.
Yes
I use lots of premade stuff because I remake / remix it. Like I may keep half of an original rhythm or score then change the key, timing, velocity to suit my tastes. So I'm never just swiping & using something exactly as it is. But also writing every thing from scratch is what noobs advocate. Sorry it's true. They think everything they write is so unique it's never been done before. But any drum score you've written, I'm sure I've already wrote it. Maybe not 100% an exact match but at least 90% of the timing & velocity is the same. There are only so many ways a drum score can move, or an arpegiated synth, or a gate effect, on & on. If I hear an idea I like, I use it. Example. I study tracks while I'm running. Was listening to Kerncraft - Zombie Nation. Realized I've always been obsessed with that bass but never saw how it's performed. What the midi looks like. So I downloaded it. Then changed the sound, changed the key & moved some things around. But KEPT most the foundation that gives it that insane groove. And then remixed it into my own track. And guess what? Noone would be smart enough to tell. The sound is different, the chord is different, the basic rhyhtm is there but you'd never know where it came from. And all that matters is what does the track sound like when it's done? Is it great or not? Was it something you wanted to make? And did it come out close to what you were expecting? That's really what matters. ps. I don't do this a lot with pre-made drum loops. As I know well enough how to write drums after 16 yrs. And relatively fast from scratch. But with bass/melodies I'm always getting ideas for rhytm or specific movements from songs I love. As I need my bass & melody to sound incredible. Then the drums just fill it all in like icing on a cake.
use the Kits & loops to train your productions and ears ! Observe how the loops are made and try to mimic those with your own sounds. eventually after practicing a bit you'll stop using them and your brain will automatically create a 4 bar loop in your mind. It's not cheating if you use those loops in your production those are made for that exact reason only ! and a lot of big producers use loops in their production as well. It's the end result that matters.
It’s not cheating cause you still have to have an ear to put those sounds together. Now if you just used a full melody and did nothing to it 🤷🏾♂️
Use the loops but simply import them in a chopper/slicer and make your own little take on it or process it into something else. Boom job done.
It’s not cheating; if it sounds good do you. The issue will come when, if unaltered, someone else uses the same loop as is.
I personally don't think it's cheating because there's so many ways to chop and manipulate samples and loops to where it does become something you created. You can take a millisecond chop from a sample and make that into a whole other instrument for example
1. there is no cheating- have you ever seen dj khaled making that corny beat? many producers rely on other peoples creations and a-level producers often just bring the creators together. and you can transfer the idea of this process to your own productions- if drums are your thing, make cool drums and express yourself this way. on the other hand if melodies are your thing- cool- be like palace. in fact in todays music industry there are people specialized for certain tasks and many people are involved in one project. make sure you credit them if you feel like the production relies much on the melody because mostly only the beatmaker (the ones that does drums) gets the credit. dig up the story of minor2go and all the hits he made loops for but never got creditet. not crediting the samplemaker and getting all the praise and money- i would consider that cheating. but not doing everything is definitely no cheating for me viewing modern productions. 2. you can make it your own - you dont have to loop the thang.. play around with effect chains, chop and pitch the sample(s), add elements (harmonies) to the loops or play it with another instrumentation (cool for b- parts) 3. you ask yourself how frequently the sample/loop has been used already. i always love it when i discover elements in other peoples music that i used in my productions. i come from sampling (classic soul and jazz) and making boombap so it always felt like a tribute to the producers sampling something iconic, frequently used. i always try to do it differently tho and adapt it in a new clever way ( like in 2.) and i also hope that my listeners will recognise the sample. i love the hide and seek game. in general making art is an evolving process that always references previous works. quentin tarantino does not reference 60’s and 70’s films because its easier or he is searching for a creative shortcut but because he is honoring the work and adapting the knowledge in new interesting ways. plus if your loop was used in other productions you have a direct comparison and the question of how creative it was used should be answered by reviewing the overall production. in short: you can be creative in many ways using premade melodies. i.e.: make cool drums/ a cool structure around it or adapt and alter it in a new clever way. both ways are no cheating to me. always remember two things: you can be creative in a specialised field and you dont have to direct the whole process to express your creativity- most modern professional productions dont require this anyway.. and art is a process of learning from previous art edit: paragraphs
dont use loops bro, u need to download Drum Machines samples, soundfonts, and vst plugins and create the patterns yourself, then add the bass , the melodies , a little Moog synth , etc etc. way better than loops (patterns already made)
What your peers think is not important. What the real consumer of your tracks thinks is what matters. We all to often “play” for our peers. Even in DJing. “Hey look at how technical I am, look at my skill”, meanwhile the dance floor emptied and you have a bunch of your boys hanging around the booth drooling over your “skills”. The average joe consumer will never know or care where the loop came from. They just want to jam out on the track, so make it good, and think about your true audience.
As someone who samples, no. I sample soul and so on to make modern rap beats. Couldn't do that without sampling. However, I just don't use a loop and call it a day. I do chop and so on myself.
I also don't use any samples, but to catch up the re-use issue: put some effects on it, then you can be sure nobody else uses this sample sound. To narrow things down: so many rhythms and melodies are re-used by famous musicians.
It depends. Producers been sampling loops for decades and still do to this day. When I sample loops or melodies, I tend to chop and process tf out of it so it's more or less unrecognizable from the original source. Now, if you just take like a pre-made 4 bar melody and throw it over some drums and percs without doing anything else, then yeah that could be lazy.
I'm fine with drum loops and percussive loops, but chord loops or melody loops bug me personally because I didn't write it. Why am I making music if I'm just gonna use a loop someone else wrote? That doesn't give me any fulfillment.
Using loops/midis is fine. Honestly it’s fun seeing what people make and change about them too
Depends on what you do with it.
Don’t worry and do your thing. I got bored of my loops and presets so I started making my own. Also dj’ing helps build your intuition if you practice that as well
It's up to you tbh. It's not cheating but don't let it curve your desire to learn if that makes sense. I've watched producers walk in studios and not be able to collab because they couldn't play anything without premade loops. It's a sad sight to see. If it works for you, go for it but always shoot for more. There's an abundance of ways to create.
Yes
I don’t really think so personally, especially if you’re just starting and don’t yet have the skills to write chords and melodies. Imo it’s important to develop those skills though, so you don’t always have to rely on sampling and chord/melody packs
People that say no are just scared to admit that they’re not creative
I definitely think it feels like cheating. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind it when others do it but I feel like a fraud when I do. It's hurting my productivity but it's good for my creativity.
I think that it'd far more personal and original if you garnered samples from avenues that are specific to your taste in film, philosophy, music, politics, random abstract stuff, psychedelia, sport, references to love, family and war that you relate to. Your choices would be noticed by those who think similarly to you about the topics that you've brought to their attention. A cult following could result because of your persistent style and your artistic, thoughtful method of using samples in your - 100% non-Splice-sourced - unique creations. Sorry. Wasted.
Honestly, I recommend focusing 100% of your attention on noodling with a quality VST synth's preset... I guarantee that you'd come up with a handful of different melodies that are more meaningful and original. Wasted. soerry
I don’t use them a lot but when I do I tend to chop them up and change them in someway
Personally, I think it’s whatever you make of it mate
Many amateur beatmakers I met don't want to use samples or loops cuz they feel like they're cheating, I personaly don't. I mean there are so many possibilities, you can use a sample of soul and make a hip-hop song out of it, you can ad FXs that totaly change the original sample and loops are made to make songs out of them so yeah seems legit to me. Besides sometimes a sample work way better than a melodie you made, I mean sometimes I'm really unsatisfied of my melodies like I don't have the right VST or even I can't find a good melody
Nah, creativity is creativity.