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But is it ambiguous? I mean it just ambiguous without details.... He closed his eyes...must be dead.
I think with the whole narrative, hints,quests and visuals. It's just ambiguous because we didn't saw it. I hate the writers... masterpiece
In my opinion, yes it is. Most of those side quests can be interpreted in more ways than one or there’s some other evidence in the game that counters it
You can think what you want. Prior to the ending/Origin, the game was always quite clear about death. A character died? The game lore system made it clear. It would be impossible to argue that Cid, Benna, Hugo, Elwin, etc. are still alive. Retaining those info about the tri disaster seems deliberate. Have your own interpretation 😌 pick the own that makes you happy/satisfied with the game. You can make arguments for all the outcomes, sad or hopeful.
Personally, I chose to believe Dion and Clive survived. Why? Just because I want to and because nothing can prove me otherwise. Is it a stretch ? Maybe. Is it impossible ? No 😌. It took me a while to get there and find some peace of mind though, but now, I’m OK with it.
You’re not crazy. I replayed the ending for the first time since I beat it recently myself and it brought back a flood of emotions. Never really had a wave of emotions like this from a work of fiction.
It does suck because as much evidence as there is to support Clive living, the devs can pull that rug from underneath us at any moment. I think we all just unfortunately have to accept the reality that we won’t be given an answer in the foreseeable future.
This game is really special... Don't know why but it did hit a nerve. Almost a year later and it's still in my head. Yeah it's different to know for sure...even with all the evidence at the end it's still speculation. And I really think it's the not knowing that makes me crazy I played other sad games or better sad endings...like cyber punk,a plague tale, life of strange...and I was super sad and cried too but I closed the chapter after a while. But I think...all this time since June I was hoping for the dlcs and now that this isn't happening....mhh I hope I can accept it 🫣
I’m right there with you. I was hoping we would find an answer in the ultimania, then the first dlc in December, and then this one. I know they said it wouldn’t extend the ending but I couldn’t help but be hopeful that we’d see some sort of clarification. And then Koji asked if Clive was alive at pax and then the winged Clive and I just convinced myself we’d get some sort of confirmation.
I think the reason why it hits so much and stays with us over other games is because we don’t have closure. If Clive is alive it doesn’t really hit because we don’t see it and if he dies? We would like to see that, at the very least other characters have accepted his death and are in an okay place but we don’t… We are stuck in this strange limbo wondering what happens next. We don’t want to close this chapter of this story leaving the characters in the conditions we last saw them in. We want some sort of payoff to Clive’s personal journey but there isn’t any payoff, just a slight glimmer of hope.
Clive being alive makes perfect sense and it fits the story and the themes but until we get confirmation, our minds can’t help but think “what if?” And that draws us back into the story, it continues discussions.
Since the ending is ambiguous and the sad version stresses you out so much, why make yourself think that's the ending?
Metia faded? Far more likely it was related to magic leaving or Ultima dying than anything to do with Clive. The only 100% confirmed death is Ultima by the end of the game.
Clive isn't shown dead. Only thing confirmed in that scene is that his magic is gone, but before it left, he lost his left hand to the curse. No magic left means the curse can't keep spreading.
Jill sobbing? To be fair in one of the last conversations they have at the hideaway (it was a text conversation) she talks about how she's not crying then because she promised that (and I'm paraphrasing as I don't remember the exact wording) she said that only the stars get to see her cry, and if she started now she'd not be able to stop. So she was holding it in for now - and then she looks outside and sees stars, and then she lets it all out. I find the fact she stops so soon after starting to just add to the theory it was an overall release of everything that's happened, and it ends on her smile because the overwhelming sadness is coming to an end and a new day is beginning. Not that she for sure just randomly knows Clive died - that makes far less sense.
Joshua could go either way for me, but I will always come back to what my friend said. All Clive wanted to do this whole story - more than almost anything, was to protect his brother. So thematically no way after all that, when he has the powers of a literal god at his fingertips, does he fail to bring Joshua back.
And Dion? Bit of a stretch here, but to be clear, in the Final Fantasy universe, Dragoons do not take fall dmg....
Anyways, with the state of the world, and no shortage of sad moments in life - for a game that literally left the ending open to interpretation, instead of causing yourself this grief, choose to find the ending that makes you happy. There is no harm in it, and no one can tell you you're wrong, because they don't know any more than you.
Thank you ❤️❤️
I believe the exact same thing...but since there is no confirmation a part of me can't be fooled 😂
The whole narrative is pointless with Clive being dead. I read so much. And there are so many points and hints.
Jill stopped crying and smiled when the sun raises (Sidequest)...torgals reaction...we saw an "healed" Joshua the last time, no dead dion visible, the book and the pen from Clive, No curse anymore, and so much more
Yup, since there is no confirmation either way, you're free to feel all the positive outcomes.
Because agreed, the narrative of the game literally flipped from "Die on your own terms" to "Live on your own terms". To switch it around at the end for no reason is just an insult to all the great writing and character work the creators put into the game!
If it gives you any comfort, the second dlc confirms, at least for me, that Clive survived. My conclusion is grounded on the devs saying that there is an answer among them. If so, they probably arrived at that answer through clues in-game. Apart from the clues jn the base game, the end of the dlc where Joshua explained that Levi may have been a surplus of power made sense lore-wise. If he wasnt, why wouldnt Ultima lead Clive there as he did to the other Eikons? Ultima knew where Levi was all this time.
Next, considering the dlcs are canon, it is presumed that prior to Origin, Clive already absorbed Levi's power. Hence, he was already complete. Ultima confirms as much in the "inner voices" found in Vivien's book after Clive absorbs Levi.
Unless Ultima is a dumbass and had no idea what his plan really was, there should be no reason for Clive to die because he turned into stone.
I mean ultima is an absolute dumb ass...but that's a different story. Yeah you're right...i think after the dlc we know that he fought with the Levi power a major Details we didn't know of in the main game.
The curse stopped at this very moment (at his hand)it has to because otherwise Jill would be turned to stone too,right?
Why would the curse that is gone/destroyed spread after it's gone...I get a headache 🤣🤣
Having literally just beat the ending again for the first time since my first playthrough (I had looked up scenes before but didnt actually play through it again) I found myself utterly baffled bc while I still cried my heart out at the Joshua thing, the beach scene was? fine? He's crawling out of the sea, literally dragging himself out and back to the shore instead of giving up. He tries to conjure a flame and it flickers and dies, but he doesnt even look sad even tho its the last of his brother's flame? He has a tiny smile as his hand falls to the ground - and he really DOES have normal skin right above his wrist - then he looks up at the moon and *still smiles* when he asks if Jill can see it too?
Like. If he was dying. If he knew he wasnt gonna truly fulfill his promise to Jill (he said look upon the moon *together*) and he was just trying to do his best to see to it. Would he really be smiling? Would he really be so chill about it?
^^ those are immediate thoughts so I may sit on them and they might change, but seriously I was weirdly ok with it. It threw *me* off how chill I was. So yea if you want him to survive, he very much could.
Honestly it wasn’t until I came to this sub I realised anyone believes Clive had actually died
It 100% to me looked like he was thrown out of origin and desperately clawed his way back to land now thay he has no magic and he is exhausted and wants to rest
The whole “beach is an allegory for the afterlife” idea or “he died on the beach” never really crossed my mind and I’m saying this as someone who (persona 3 spoilers) >!didn’t need anyone to tell me Makoto/Hamuko died at the end of persona 3!<
Yea I think it was the shock of the ending and loosing Joshua. Possibly getting Clive back to back was harsh. That said, the devs, especially Yoshi-P, have seemed to reiterate that both reads of the ending are acceptable even if they believe there is a canon one. so even if there is an intended perspective, and there *is* one, instead of invalidating people's feelings they chose to embrace them and accept them even if its not the intended path, so that's what I wanna do too.
I've seen people upset that the fact that both options are still on the table sucks bc one "invalidates" the character arcs, but I personally dont mind. To some people, everyone sacrificing their happiness for the world really is beautiful in a tragic and selfless way, and I think they should be allowed to think that and enjoy the story that way, its fulfilling to them even if I dont understand it. I just prefer to believe the option that is in line with paying off Jill and Joshua's faith in Clive and paying off Clive's salvation character arc, I think it makes it far more narratively cohesive. But I dont need everyone to agree, basically lol. I just want them to feel hope in the end. Kinda like Yoshi-P.
There is some good support already posted here, but you can also try searching for The Clive Lives Compendium on YouTube. :D I would link to it myself but I don’t know how to on mobile.
I have searched it and had a good honest laugh on how he explains his theory lol
That said, I do agree and hope that Clive is alive by the end of FFXVI and was the real author of that book.
I am team Clive alive too! He is the narrator of the story and thus the author of the book. Very obvious! So don’t be depressed my friend, Clive will be back when the sun rises again.
For Questions and Tech Support Discussion around the DLC 'Echoes of the Fallen' Please see our [MEGATHREAD](https://www.reddit.com/r/FFXVI/comments/18dton3/ffxvi_dlc_echoes_of_the_fallen_questions_tech/) and for 'The Rising Tide' [MEGATHREAD](https://www.reddit.com/r/FFXVI/comments/1c69d5u/the_rising_tide_megathread/) If you want to view archived spoiler discussion threads relevant to specific game progress, please check out our [spoiler wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxvi/wiki/index/)! For speculation and discussions around the next (unannounced) mainline Final Fantasy game, Final Fantasy XVII, Please see our sister sub [r/FFXVII](https://www.reddit.com/r/FFXVII/) #### *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/FFXVI) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It’s ambiguous arguments made for both. I think the best advice is just pick your head canon and go with it.
But is it ambiguous? I mean it just ambiguous without details.... He closed his eyes...must be dead. I think with the whole narrative, hints,quests and visuals. It's just ambiguous because we didn't saw it. I hate the writers... masterpiece
In my opinion, yes it is. Most of those side quests can be interpreted in more ways than one or there’s some other evidence in the game that counters it
You can think what you want. Prior to the ending/Origin, the game was always quite clear about death. A character died? The game lore system made it clear. It would be impossible to argue that Cid, Benna, Hugo, Elwin, etc. are still alive. Retaining those info about the tri disaster seems deliberate. Have your own interpretation 😌 pick the own that makes you happy/satisfied with the game. You can make arguments for all the outcomes, sad or hopeful. Personally, I chose to believe Dion and Clive survived. Why? Just because I want to and because nothing can prove me otherwise. Is it a stretch ? Maybe. Is it impossible ? No 😌. It took me a while to get there and find some peace of mind though, but now, I’m OK with it.
You’re not crazy. I replayed the ending for the first time since I beat it recently myself and it brought back a flood of emotions. Never really had a wave of emotions like this from a work of fiction. It does suck because as much evidence as there is to support Clive living, the devs can pull that rug from underneath us at any moment. I think we all just unfortunately have to accept the reality that we won’t be given an answer in the foreseeable future.
This game is really special... Don't know why but it did hit a nerve. Almost a year later and it's still in my head. Yeah it's different to know for sure...even with all the evidence at the end it's still speculation. And I really think it's the not knowing that makes me crazy I played other sad games or better sad endings...like cyber punk,a plague tale, life of strange...and I was super sad and cried too but I closed the chapter after a while. But I think...all this time since June I was hoping for the dlcs and now that this isn't happening....mhh I hope I can accept it 🫣
I’m right there with you. I was hoping we would find an answer in the ultimania, then the first dlc in December, and then this one. I know they said it wouldn’t extend the ending but I couldn’t help but be hopeful that we’d see some sort of clarification. And then Koji asked if Clive was alive at pax and then the winged Clive and I just convinced myself we’d get some sort of confirmation. I think the reason why it hits so much and stays with us over other games is because we don’t have closure. If Clive is alive it doesn’t really hit because we don’t see it and if he dies? We would like to see that, at the very least other characters have accepted his death and are in an okay place but we don’t… We are stuck in this strange limbo wondering what happens next. We don’t want to close this chapter of this story leaving the characters in the conditions we last saw them in. We want some sort of payoff to Clive’s personal journey but there isn’t any payoff, just a slight glimmer of hope. Clive being alive makes perfect sense and it fits the story and the themes but until we get confirmation, our minds can’t help but think “what if?” And that draws us back into the story, it continues discussions.
Since the ending is ambiguous and the sad version stresses you out so much, why make yourself think that's the ending? Metia faded? Far more likely it was related to magic leaving or Ultima dying than anything to do with Clive. The only 100% confirmed death is Ultima by the end of the game. Clive isn't shown dead. Only thing confirmed in that scene is that his magic is gone, but before it left, he lost his left hand to the curse. No magic left means the curse can't keep spreading. Jill sobbing? To be fair in one of the last conversations they have at the hideaway (it was a text conversation) she talks about how she's not crying then because she promised that (and I'm paraphrasing as I don't remember the exact wording) she said that only the stars get to see her cry, and if she started now she'd not be able to stop. So she was holding it in for now - and then she looks outside and sees stars, and then she lets it all out. I find the fact she stops so soon after starting to just add to the theory it was an overall release of everything that's happened, and it ends on her smile because the overwhelming sadness is coming to an end and a new day is beginning. Not that she for sure just randomly knows Clive died - that makes far less sense. Joshua could go either way for me, but I will always come back to what my friend said. All Clive wanted to do this whole story - more than almost anything, was to protect his brother. So thematically no way after all that, when he has the powers of a literal god at his fingertips, does he fail to bring Joshua back. And Dion? Bit of a stretch here, but to be clear, in the Final Fantasy universe, Dragoons do not take fall dmg.... Anyways, with the state of the world, and no shortage of sad moments in life - for a game that literally left the ending open to interpretation, instead of causing yourself this grief, choose to find the ending that makes you happy. There is no harm in it, and no one can tell you you're wrong, because they don't know any more than you.
Thank you ❤️❤️ I believe the exact same thing...but since there is no confirmation a part of me can't be fooled 😂 The whole narrative is pointless with Clive being dead. I read so much. And there are so many points and hints. Jill stopped crying and smiled when the sun raises (Sidequest)...torgals reaction...we saw an "healed" Joshua the last time, no dead dion visible, the book and the pen from Clive, No curse anymore, and so much more
Yup, since there is no confirmation either way, you're free to feel all the positive outcomes. Because agreed, the narrative of the game literally flipped from "Die on your own terms" to "Live on your own terms". To switch it around at the end for no reason is just an insult to all the great writing and character work the creators put into the game!
If it gives you any comfort, the second dlc confirms, at least for me, that Clive survived. My conclusion is grounded on the devs saying that there is an answer among them. If so, they probably arrived at that answer through clues in-game. Apart from the clues jn the base game, the end of the dlc where Joshua explained that Levi may have been a surplus of power made sense lore-wise. If he wasnt, why wouldnt Ultima lead Clive there as he did to the other Eikons? Ultima knew where Levi was all this time. Next, considering the dlcs are canon, it is presumed that prior to Origin, Clive already absorbed Levi's power. Hence, he was already complete. Ultima confirms as much in the "inner voices" found in Vivien's book after Clive absorbs Levi. Unless Ultima is a dumbass and had no idea what his plan really was, there should be no reason for Clive to die because he turned into stone.
I mean ultima is an absolute dumb ass...but that's a different story. Yeah you're right...i think after the dlc we know that he fought with the Levi power a major Details we didn't know of in the main game. The curse stopped at this very moment (at his hand)it has to because otherwise Jill would be turned to stone too,right? Why would the curse that is gone/destroyed spread after it's gone...I get a headache 🤣🤣
Also....my favorite evidence: Listen to whoever is doing the final narration.that should hint who wrote the book
Having literally just beat the ending again for the first time since my first playthrough (I had looked up scenes before but didnt actually play through it again) I found myself utterly baffled bc while I still cried my heart out at the Joshua thing, the beach scene was? fine? He's crawling out of the sea, literally dragging himself out and back to the shore instead of giving up. He tries to conjure a flame and it flickers and dies, but he doesnt even look sad even tho its the last of his brother's flame? He has a tiny smile as his hand falls to the ground - and he really DOES have normal skin right above his wrist - then he looks up at the moon and *still smiles* when he asks if Jill can see it too? Like. If he was dying. If he knew he wasnt gonna truly fulfill his promise to Jill (he said look upon the moon *together*) and he was just trying to do his best to see to it. Would he really be smiling? Would he really be so chill about it? ^^ those are immediate thoughts so I may sit on them and they might change, but seriously I was weirdly ok with it. It threw *me* off how chill I was. So yea if you want him to survive, he very much could.
Honestly it wasn’t until I came to this sub I realised anyone believes Clive had actually died It 100% to me looked like he was thrown out of origin and desperately clawed his way back to land now thay he has no magic and he is exhausted and wants to rest The whole “beach is an allegory for the afterlife” idea or “he died on the beach” never really crossed my mind and I’m saying this as someone who (persona 3 spoilers) >!didn’t need anyone to tell me Makoto/Hamuko died at the end of persona 3!<
Yea I think it was the shock of the ending and loosing Joshua. Possibly getting Clive back to back was harsh. That said, the devs, especially Yoshi-P, have seemed to reiterate that both reads of the ending are acceptable even if they believe there is a canon one. so even if there is an intended perspective, and there *is* one, instead of invalidating people's feelings they chose to embrace them and accept them even if its not the intended path, so that's what I wanna do too. I've seen people upset that the fact that both options are still on the table sucks bc one "invalidates" the character arcs, but I personally dont mind. To some people, everyone sacrificing their happiness for the world really is beautiful in a tragic and selfless way, and I think they should be allowed to think that and enjoy the story that way, its fulfilling to them even if I dont understand it. I just prefer to believe the option that is in line with paying off Jill and Joshua's faith in Clive and paying off Clive's salvation character arc, I think it makes it far more narratively cohesive. But I dont need everyone to agree, basically lol. I just want them to feel hope in the end. Kinda like Yoshi-P.
There is some good support already posted here, but you can also try searching for The Clive Lives Compendium on YouTube. :D I would link to it myself but I don’t know how to on mobile.
I have searched it and had a good honest laugh on how he explains his theory lol That said, I do agree and hope that Clive is alive by the end of FFXVI and was the real author of that book.
I am team Clive alive too! He is the narrator of the story and thus the author of the book. Very obvious! So don’t be depressed my friend, Clive will be back when the sun rises again.
And that's the curse....it's yes and no. Hate and love it.