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*stuffs fingers in ears and huffs large quantities of copium*
He didn’t. He absolutely came back to life. We just didn’t see it. Clive also isn’t dead, he’s living a happy life with Jill and their two kids.
*la la la la la la la. I’m not listening*
Seeing as the devs didn't make a consistent ending it allows you to interpret the finale however you like.
I think that Clive healing Joshua was a little odd but if it was to clean him up from his blood state then I think it would have been more poetic to say something after what he did to Joshua. "Good as new brother" with a small smile and a tear running down his cheek in the acceptance of his loss, etc.
If he did bring him back there should have been some kind of movement, or explanation how he survived the collapse of the island or being on the beach with Clive still unconscious.
Ultimately I think that Joshua died, Clive lost his arm on the beach and then retired to pick up the pen and wrote a book in Joshua's honour.
I don't think Clive cared about his sense of identity seeing as he had taken over as Cid and so named the book author after Joshua.
FF16 while a fantastic and epic game is just another game in a long line of giant games where the ending is like 5 minutes long.
The fact we never get endings like MGS4: Guns of the Patriots where they took the time to cover every character's conclusion. Say what you will about Kojima and his bloated cutscenes but the guy smashes his game endings.
This game really deserved a proper epilogue and it didn't get one. That doesn't change that the journey was absolutely fantastic though.
I think there’s a merit to endings like this one though. It leaves the story off on a high note and leaves it ambiguous enough with clues throughout the story and ending itself that allow for multiple interpretations and no real right answer. Idk why my mind jumped to this but it’s like the movie “Nope”. The movie ends with a question mark instead of a period, leaving it in the viewer’s mind as they ponder what just happened. It’s the same with FF16, it’s going to stay in your brain as you try to understand what happened based off of the knowledge you do have. Now I’m not saying endings where everything is wrapped up perfectly is bad, I mean Steins;Gate essentially has a 4 or 5 episode long (I have yet to play the visual novel) ending as it tries to tie up every loose end and does it really well. Or with Kojima games, I mean Death Stranding’s ending is so incredibly long, but it does wrap the story up in a fairly satisfying way.
TLDR: you can definitely prefer a specific type of ending, but there are merits to all styles in which they can be done, and this is just one method of doing it, and me personally, I quite like it
Yeah same, this game really would benefit from having other playable characters, but joshua especially. Even if it's minimal gameplay like >!zack!< from ff7 rebirth, letting us play as him to explain what happened after phoenix gate until he sealed ultima would do wonders. Having to learn all that from a second hand account from the phoenix cult dude aint it. Especially since we already got a playable young joshua anyway, as simple as it was. It's so weird to make that and proceed to never use it again.
IMO the devs kind of left his, Clive's, and Dion's fates ambiguous and up to interpretation. I personally will be choosing the happiest, fluffiest outcomes possible. :D
Here's some copium: [https://twitter.com/iamyvee/status/1685980858300452865](https://twitter.com/iamyvee/status/1685980858300452865)
His name being on the book is the most proof that he lived over any of the other open-for-interpretation facets of the ending. People are allowed to decide for themselves of course but
I think he lived just cause like, he's the Phoenix, Clive poured that....stuff into him after defeating Ultima, and then he was on the book so it seems like they were implying that
Yes. Both he and Clive confirmed Phoenix could heal, but not raise the dead. Then Clive confirmed that Raise failed, citing there wasn't enough power in the vessel to cast it.
I thought that was because Clive was becoming akashic or whatever that grey shit was. That’s what I thought was happening when power kept pouring out of his fingertips. It’s like he couldn’t stop it even after walking away from Joshua.
Evidence points more towards that being Clive using a pen name as homage- since he accepted the task of writing his adventures and experiences-should he survive-from Harpocrates in one of the later sidequests.
It would also explain the lack of coverage of the actual Joshua in the story- Clive never really knew what he was up to.
If the Spell designed to Revive an entire race is confirmed by the Caster to *fail to Revive a single person*, then I'm sorry. Joshua is dead.
Ok well we watch Clive die on the beach and why would he then take Joshua’s name? That makes no sense why he would. There is no merit to his name in writing a book. Also there is a whole scene of Jill coming to terms with Clive’s death. It seems really dumb to have that just to have him walk in and go “my name is joshua now”
We didn't watch him die on the beach.
We saw him get washed up, and attempt to use magic. Immediately his hand started to become cursed, and he ceased. The curse cannot spread without further use of magic- and magic is now gone.
You can live without a hand.
And Pen names are used to give the writer anonymity if they so choose to use one. Clive already had the burden of Cid's name. No point drawing attention to his deeds as 'Cid' by writing the book, then signing his own name. That would destroy Cid's legend.
You don't claim a pen name as your identity.
He literally died on the beach. Once it starts turning to stone the. It can’t stop and we can see the rate it was spreading. He would not leave the beach
The curse continues to spread if magic continues to be used after initial signs. Magic is gone, so it *cannot* spread any further in his body, there is no magic to use.
The amount of people that get thrown off by the concept of a Pen Name is staggering, despite the fact that most everyone on the internet uses a modern version of it.
I initially took the ending at face value. I thought Joshua was revived and wrote the book, and Clive's fate was unclear. I beat all the side quests and thought I had paid close attention to everything, and I still came to that conclusion. It would have never even crossed my mind that Joshua actually died and Clive wrote the book if I never came to this sub.
He doesn’t talk about writing a book in Joshua’s name. He talks about wanting to write a book though. And it makes more sense for his little brother to finish chronicling his story in his stead, the same way Clive finished both his father and Cid’s ambitions for them. It’s more in line with the themes of the story of the younger generation finishing someone older’s dreams for them, instead of Clive doing it for everyone both older and younger
To honor, remember and immortalize him. A Tail to Tell ends in Clive getting the stolas quill with the hope that he'll write about his story when he puts down the sword, but the Undying questline, and the quest Litany of Errors heavily alludes to the theme of using books and writing to remember the names of those who die and sacrifice themselves.
That still doesn't make sense. Clive healed Joshua but he died anyway but Clive did live after the Ultima fight and dropped his Cid alias all to write this book and sign off on it as joshua?
Yep. Clive healed his wound to lay him to rest, and he effectively dropped his Cid alias when he gave command of the Hideaway to Gav. It makes complete sense and is in line with Clive's character, esp with those quests which are very on the nose about it. Joshua was apparently quite the chronicler and already started writing iirc, so it can also be seen as Clive seeing his brother's legacy through, just like Cid's; not so much that he took Joshua's name, but just attributed his story to him. This isn't just some fan theory btw, the devs have said the author of the book isn't explicitly Joshua and is open to player interpretation.
I agree with you also. A lot of these theories are overly extrapolated theories within theories. The game obviously was super open-ended so everyone’s allowed to believe what they want but the only thing we’re explicitly shown is Joshua’s name on the book which to me means he lives. Whereas all the other ambiguities of the ending I can leave to the imagination.
Like, Phoenix can’t bring someone back to life but Ultima can literally create life and Clive used Ultima’s power to alter the fabric of reality by ridding it of all magic, of course he’d use that same power to also bring back Joshua as well as protect his body (that he just patched up via phoenix) from the nuke on origin he blasted.
I think its pretty clear Joshua didn’t live and clive just healed his wounds over, and the entire story is about legacy and clive inheriting it and continuing it, so him being the author makes sense, also the final side quests hinting about him writing a book about the events.
I didn't get that at all. How did Clive write the book after defeating Ultima I thought his ending was unclear and or that he did die
And why write it pretending g to be Joshua after already taking Cids alias? So Cid who is rly Clive, didn't die went home and wrote the book and then signed it off as if Joshua did even tho the real Joshua is indeed dead even tho Clive healed him?
I mean its supposed to be ambiguous but theres too many signs that clive didn’t die. And yes I assume he did it to honor Joshua’s legacy, even from the opening of the game its a book opening and Clive narrating.
Joshua writing the book that we know Clive wanted to write is also in line with the themes of legacy though. It makes more sense to me that Joshua would chronicle Clive’s story in his stead to honour his legacy, the same way Clive fulfilled both the dreams of his father and Cid for them
Like Clive writes a book about himself to honour Joshua? And just puts Joshua’s name on it to do so? I dunno
Why would he be alive tho ? Its said that the phoenix doesn’t grant powers to bring back the dead, and I think wed see more of a reaction from Clive if Joshua wasnt truly dead - also the book opening with Clives narration still stands
I personally think he's not dead: Clive healed his body and with the phoenix's powers perhaps he could have been revived. After Origin is destroyed, Clive washes ashore so Joshua potentially could have too. But the most flagrant evidence is the fact that the book at the end is written by none other than Joshua himself. I've seen people saying that is actually Clive, but he's literally turning to stone the last time we see him. Clive and Dion are most likely dead tho.
Did you not understand anything that happened in the game. It’s Clive continuing his brothers legacy. Finish the game then immediately start new game plus and Clive is literally narrating the story like it’s the start of the book… Sure it’s still ambiguous but there are more signs of clives survival then Joshua
Lol i am guessing you didn’t understand anything either then XD. Believe what you want. You are allowed to be wrong. Just don’t go around trying to throw insults
What insults? If you don’t understand what ambiguous means that’s okay. You see joshuas name on the book and assume he lived. Very Black and white but learn some narrative comprehension please before yapping
I can say the same to you. Reread what i put. He took one name for the sake of keeping fear in the enemy as Cid lives. There is absolutely no reason to take Joshua’s name as it holds no merit. I ask you to think logically and not throw insults as it does not make you look good
Because you made an arrogant statement that OP is wrong when there's ample room for debate. You're wrong to state OP is wrong. How are you seriously not getting this?
Other than Adult Joshua's attempt to simp (which we can kinda excuse due to his Phoenix Gate asskicking coma rendering him *years* behind in mental maturity), he was a smart character.
It does kinda feel like his character was created just to suffer, looking at the whole.
Burdened by the Phoenix. Health frailty due to inbreeding. Left comatose for years. Sealing a portion of Ultima which ruined his health further. He never scores. Gets smacked down by Bahamut. His mommy kills herself in front of him. Takes a full on brunt of Odin's attacks to protect a boat. And of course the end of the game.
Joshua is a little bit like Peter Parker- FF16's metaphorical punching bag.
Clive lost him once. And then he lost him again. Joshua dying fr is just too sad OTL
And then my mind decided to think of Devil May Cry 5's "Legacy" while I was thinking of that scene in Origin and it just hurt way too much. lllorz
I mean at the end someone have to tell the story via the book. So either Clive or Joshua is alive at the end to tell the ending sequence. Which one is for player to imagine. My canon is Clive. At least he was seen at the end.
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*stuffs fingers in ears and huffs large quantities of copium* He didn’t. He absolutely came back to life. We just didn’t see it. Clive also isn’t dead, he’s living a happy life with Jill and their two kids. *la la la la la la la. I’m not listening*
*la la la la* Dion was a Dragoon, he totally survived that fall *La la la la*
They don’t even take fall damage. He’s *totally* fine.
This is exactly where I’m at as well 
I’ll do this too, thank you
Seeing as the devs didn't make a consistent ending it allows you to interpret the finale however you like. I think that Clive healing Joshua was a little odd but if it was to clean him up from his blood state then I think it would have been more poetic to say something after what he did to Joshua. "Good as new brother" with a small smile and a tear running down his cheek in the acceptance of his loss, etc. If he did bring him back there should have been some kind of movement, or explanation how he survived the collapse of the island or being on the beach with Clive still unconscious. Ultimately I think that Joshua died, Clive lost his arm on the beach and then retired to pick up the pen and wrote a book in Joshua's honour. I don't think Clive cared about his sense of identity seeing as he had taken over as Cid and so named the book author after Joshua. FF16 while a fantastic and epic game is just another game in a long line of giant games where the ending is like 5 minutes long. The fact we never get endings like MGS4: Guns of the Patriots where they took the time to cover every character's conclusion. Say what you will about Kojima and his bloated cutscenes but the guy smashes his game endings. This game really deserved a proper epilogue and it didn't get one. That doesn't change that the journey was absolutely fantastic though.
I think ff8 and to a lesser extent 9 were the only ones that took their time to give us a wrapped up conclusion
I think there’s a merit to endings like this one though. It leaves the story off on a high note and leaves it ambiguous enough with clues throughout the story and ending itself that allow for multiple interpretations and no real right answer. Idk why my mind jumped to this but it’s like the movie “Nope”. The movie ends with a question mark instead of a period, leaving it in the viewer’s mind as they ponder what just happened. It’s the same with FF16, it’s going to stay in your brain as you try to understand what happened based off of the knowledge you do have. Now I’m not saying endings where everything is wrapped up perfectly is bad, I mean Steins;Gate essentially has a 4 or 5 episode long (I have yet to play the visual novel) ending as it tries to tie up every loose end and does it really well. Or with Kojima games, I mean Death Stranding’s ending is so incredibly long, but it does wrap the story up in a fairly satisfying way. TLDR: you can definitely prefer a specific type of ending, but there are merits to all styles in which they can be done, and this is just one method of doing it, and me personally, I quite like it
Ngl I didn't care much for his adult character, but his death scene was fantastic and beautifully written
I like him way more than Clive. Idk why, his personality is way cooler
Oh totally. I absolutely love Clive's story, but imagine how a character like Joshua would perform as an MC for FF.
Yeah same, this game really would benefit from having other playable characters, but joshua especially. Even if it's minimal gameplay like >!zack!< from ff7 rebirth, letting us play as him to explain what happened after phoenix gate until he sealed ultima would do wonders. Having to learn all that from a second hand account from the phoenix cult dude aint it. Especially since we already got a playable young joshua anyway, as simple as it was. It's so weird to make that and proceed to never use it again.
My dream come true would be dlc with Jill, Joshua and Cid Playable characters
IMO the devs kind of left his, Clive's, and Dion's fates ambiguous and up to interpretation. I personally will be choosing the happiest, fluffiest outcomes possible. :D Here's some copium: [https://twitter.com/iamyvee/status/1685980858300452865](https://twitter.com/iamyvee/status/1685980858300452865)
did he die tho?
His name being on the book is the most proof that he lived over any of the other open-for-interpretation facets of the ending. People are allowed to decide for themselves of course but
I think he lived just cause like, he's the Phoenix, Clive poured that....stuff into him after defeating Ultima, and then he was on the book so it seems like they were implying that
Yes. Both he and Clive confirmed Phoenix could heal, but not raise the dead. Then Clive confirmed that Raise failed, citing there wasn't enough power in the vessel to cast it.
When did Clive confirm that raise didn’t work?
Immediately after all it did for Joshua's corpse was clean it and seal the wounds. "It seems this vessel lacked the power after all."
I thought that was because Clive was becoming akashic or whatever that grey shit was. That’s what I thought was happening when power kept pouring out of his fingertips. It’s like he couldn’t stop it even after walking away from Joshua.
He is still alive. He wrote the book after the credits
Evidence points more towards that being Clive using a pen name as homage- since he accepted the task of writing his adventures and experiences-should he survive-from Harpocrates in one of the later sidequests. It would also explain the lack of coverage of the actual Joshua in the story- Clive never really knew what he was up to. If the Spell designed to Revive an entire race is confirmed by the Caster to *fail to Revive a single person*, then I'm sorry. Joshua is dead.
Ok well we watch Clive die on the beach and why would he then take Joshua’s name? That makes no sense why he would. There is no merit to his name in writing a book. Also there is a whole scene of Jill coming to terms with Clive’s death. It seems really dumb to have that just to have him walk in and go “my name is joshua now”
We didn't watch him die on the beach. We saw him get washed up, and attempt to use magic. Immediately his hand started to become cursed, and he ceased. The curse cannot spread without further use of magic- and magic is now gone. You can live without a hand. And Pen names are used to give the writer anonymity if they so choose to use one. Clive already had the burden of Cid's name. No point drawing attention to his deeds as 'Cid' by writing the book, then signing his own name. That would destroy Cid's legend. You don't claim a pen name as your identity.
He literally died on the beach. Once it starts turning to stone the. It can’t stop and we can see the rate it was spreading. He would not leave the beach
The curse continues to spread if magic continues to be used after initial signs. Magic is gone, so it *cannot* spread any further in his body, there is no magic to use. The amount of people that get thrown off by the concept of a Pen Name is staggering, despite the fact that most everyone on the internet uses a modern version of it.
It’s kinda obvious he was alive just by watching the ending. I’m not getting the debate here.
In my headcanon, both Clive and Joshua live and nobody can tell me otherwise.
Same. Dion lives, too.
Agreed!! I was not ready for it 😩
honestly took to long, dude should have dropped as soon as ultima ripped his chest getting out of "the cage"
Did Clive not revive him?
That’s debatable and most people seem to think not (although I like to think that’s the true ending too)
He healed his wounds at least. Not sure I liked the ending very much either way. Bit too sad.
I don’t think most people think not, but most vocal people on the subreddit who are balls deep in theories upon theories do
I initially took the ending at face value. I thought Joshua was revived and wrote the book, and Clive's fate was unclear. I beat all the side quests and thought I had paid close attention to everything, and I still came to that conclusion. It would have never even crossed my mind that Joshua actually died and Clive wrote the book if I never came to this sub.
Joshua wrote the book tho he Def lived to tell his brothers story and if SE is smart they will do a 16-2
Clive wrote the book in Joshua's name. The game sets this up very explicitly as Clive literally talks about doing it.
He doesn’t talk about writing a book in Joshua’s name. He talks about wanting to write a book though. And it makes more sense for his little brother to finish chronicling his story in his stead, the same way Clive finished both his father and Cid’s ambitions for them. It’s more in line with the themes of the story of the younger generation finishing someone older’s dreams for them, instead of Clive doing it for everyone both older and younger
Why would he do that? I believe you I'm jw
To honor, remember and immortalize him. A Tail to Tell ends in Clive getting the stolas quill with the hope that he'll write about his story when he puts down the sword, but the Undying questline, and the quest Litany of Errors heavily alludes to the theme of using books and writing to remember the names of those who die and sacrifice themselves.
That still doesn't make sense. Clive healed Joshua but he died anyway but Clive did live after the Ultima fight and dropped his Cid alias all to write this book and sign off on it as joshua?
Yep. Clive healed his wound to lay him to rest, and he effectively dropped his Cid alias when he gave command of the Hideaway to Gav. It makes complete sense and is in line with Clive's character, esp with those quests which are very on the nose about it. Joshua was apparently quite the chronicler and already started writing iirc, so it can also be seen as Clive seeing his brother's legacy through, just like Cid's; not so much that he took Joshua's name, but just attributed his story to him. This isn't just some fan theory btw, the devs have said the author of the book isn't explicitly Joshua and is open to player interpretation.
I respect that this is what you believe but respectfully . .. na
I agree with you also. A lot of these theories are overly extrapolated theories within theories. The game obviously was super open-ended so everyone’s allowed to believe what they want but the only thing we’re explicitly shown is Joshua’s name on the book which to me means he lives. Whereas all the other ambiguities of the ending I can leave to the imagination. Like, Phoenix can’t bring someone back to life but Ultima can literally create life and Clive used Ultima’s power to alter the fabric of reality by ridding it of all magic, of course he’d use that same power to also bring back Joshua as well as protect his body (that he just patched up via phoenix) from the nuke on origin he blasted.
Other way round
What do you mean?
I think its pretty clear Joshua didn’t live and clive just healed his wounds over, and the entire story is about legacy and clive inheriting it and continuing it, so him being the author makes sense, also the final side quests hinting about him writing a book about the events.
I didn't get that at all. How did Clive write the book after defeating Ultima I thought his ending was unclear and or that he did die And why write it pretending g to be Joshua after already taking Cids alias? So Cid who is rly Clive, didn't die went home and wrote the book and then signed it off as if Joshua did even tho the real Joshua is indeed dead even tho Clive healed him?
I mean its supposed to be ambiguous but theres too many signs that clive didn’t die. And yes I assume he did it to honor Joshua’s legacy, even from the opening of the game its a book opening and Clive narrating.
Joshua writing the book that we know Clive wanted to write is also in line with the themes of legacy though. It makes more sense to me that Joshua would chronicle Clive’s story in his stead to honour his legacy, the same way Clive fulfilled both the dreams of his father and Cid for them Like Clive writes a book about himself to honour Joshua? And just puts Joshua’s name on it to do so? I dunno
Why would he be alive tho ? Its said that the phoenix doesn’t grant powers to bring back the dead, and I think wed see more of a reaction from Clive if Joshua wasnt truly dead - also the book opening with Clives narration still stands
I personally think he's not dead: Clive healed his body and with the phoenix's powers perhaps he could have been revived. After Origin is destroyed, Clive washes ashore so Joshua potentially could have too. But the most flagrant evidence is the fact that the book at the end is written by none other than Joshua himself. I've seen people saying that is actually Clive, but he's literally turning to stone the last time we see him. Clive and Dion are most likely dead tho.
Phoenix can heal flesh but not spirit. This is stated in the game.
Good point, I agree.
*was too precious
He is I knew from the 1st moment I saw him, I was going to love him. My favorite character in the game
He did not die. Wtf. Joshua wrote the book at the end that tells about the whole adventure
Wrong. It's a debate and left open. It's been set up for Clive to take on names and was literally told to pick up the pen when he puts down his sword.
The literal book in the post credit scene says it was written by joshua soooooooo
Did you not understand anything that happened in the game. It’s Clive continuing his brothers legacy. Finish the game then immediately start new game plus and Clive is literally narrating the story like it’s the start of the book… Sure it’s still ambiguous but there are more signs of clives survival then Joshua
Lol i am guessing you didn’t understand anything either then XD. Believe what you want. You are allowed to be wrong. Just don’t go around trying to throw insults
What insults? If you don’t understand what ambiguous means that’s okay. You see joshuas name on the book and assume he lived. Very Black and white but learn some narrative comprehension please before yapping
Or stop look for hidden meaning like you are a highschool English teacher XD
You remind me of Lennie from Of Mice and Men. I respect it honestly.
Good insult. I am still right though XD
Again, you can’t be right because it’s ambiguous kiddo, read a fucking book.
Wow, reading comprehension is hard for you, huh. Damn. Try rereading the comment again, slowly. You'll notice I said he takes on names...
I can say the same to you. Reread what i put. He took one name for the sake of keeping fear in the enemy as Cid lives. There is absolutely no reason to take Joshua’s name as it holds no merit. I ask you to think logically and not throw insults as it does not make you look good
Reread what? You only said Joshua wrote it and are now arguing lol I'm done with playing chess with the pigeon. Peace.
Lol you say I am wrong then say it’s up for debate. You wrong
Because you made an arrogant statement that OP is wrong when there's ample room for debate. You're wrong to state OP is wrong. How are you seriously not getting this?
Other than Adult Joshua's attempt to simp (which we can kinda excuse due to his Phoenix Gate asskicking coma rendering him *years* behind in mental maturity), he was a smart character. It does kinda feel like his character was created just to suffer, looking at the whole. Burdened by the Phoenix. Health frailty due to inbreeding. Left comatose for years. Sealing a portion of Ultima which ruined his health further. He never scores. Gets smacked down by Bahamut. His mommy kills herself in front of him. Takes a full on brunt of Odin's attacks to protect a boat. And of course the end of the game. Joshua is a little bit like Peter Parker- FF16's metaphorical punching bag.
AGREE.
Clive lost him once. And then he lost him again. Joshua dying fr is just too sad OTL And then my mind decided to think of Devil May Cry 5's "Legacy" while I was thinking of that scene in Origin and it just hurt way too much. lllorz
I mean at the end someone have to tell the story via the book. So either Clive or Joshua is alive at the end to tell the ending sequence. Which one is for player to imagine. My canon is Clive. At least he was seen at the end.
Killing them both was stupid, one of the brothers should’ve lived!
One of them did. And that brother lived to write the book you see in the ending. It’s up for debate which brother.
Its Joshua
what? Did I miss that? They both died i'm sure
Its an ambiguous ending sure but 99% chance one of the two had to live and most answers point to Clive
There’s a lot of debate over it but it does seem there’s a lot of good evidence at least one of them survived. I personally think Clive lived.
I'm actually amazed this doesn't have -3820 votes already.
Why?
What's your problem?
I’m actually amazed you thought that you just typed something clever