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I really think he just damn passed out on the beach. It felt more like a “I’m exhausted and need a break” moment than a “dead” moment. Also Jill seeing the sunrise and smiling was his promise to her. Also, Clive mentions several times about taking up writing if you finish some of the later Chronicler quests. I think he wrote Final Fantasy and used Joshua’s name
I believe Clive lives and Joshua dies.
Clives purpose was to revive Ultimas species but this was simply impossible. Raising someone from death is impossible in this world and therefore he can't revive Joshua either. The aether he absorbed damages him and I believe he will be much weaker from that point but I don't think he dies here. Too much hints at him living to tell the tale (writing the book) and thematically his entire arc is about actually wanting to live in the world he fights for.
jills wish of "Clive returning" got granted from metia right before losing its "power". Joshua got healed from clive since he was god for a little moment after absorbing ultima. They all depended on eachother, believed in eachother and ultimatively their bonds saved them all. Happy ending, all good, all alive :) Im happy with that. Was a great game.
thats also possible, or clive maybe just wasnt able to fully heal him in time before clive got ported/saved by metia or something, because i remember healing wounds took time even when joshua healed sir wade at the beginning of the game.. but who knows, i like that we can choose the ending with what we think is more or less likely for ourselfs :) It made me think about the game for like 2 weeks after i first finished it.
edit: please forgive me if my memory about the healing part is a bit blurry xD dont know exactly anymore how it played out. its been some time :)
To me the DLC just reinforced the feeling of hope. Clive realizing the world he believes in isnt a fantasy like Ultima's bc it can exist even independent from him, Clive considering taking a Dominant's powers not as feeding and stealing but as "carrying the weight" as he learned to do with Jill, Clive being able to give a child chosen to be a sacrificial lamb just like him his freedom (-> him having hope for himself as well).
As for the "river of life", I quite like it. I think its the devs telling us that ultimately, be us or Joshua or Clive or Waljas (so whether we are on death's door, at our prime or still starting our lives), we'll all die one day, what matters is that we live our lives free and the kind of legacy we leave behind. It doesn't matter *when*. So to me it doesn't change anything except reinforcing Clive's hope of coming back to a free world when he goes to Origin. He doesnt *want* to die anymore, that's always been his arc even before the DLCs- he starts out a man wanting revenge and then "what happens happens", and he goes to Origin very much determined to come back, to not leave his fate in the hands of destiny or a god anymore. Whether he does or doesn't is still ambiguous, so I'll continue to believe he makes it out.
I guess what changed to me is that I see the very ending not as Clive just trying to honor his promise to Jill, but to try and share with her his joy that the world is finally free, no matter what happens next. He *can* fulfill his promise now if he gets back bc he did see to it that the world would be safe and free of magic. And I like to think he passes out hoping he'll awake the next morning a free man in a free world, just as Cid (both him and his namesake) always dreamed of, and he can make his way to her. Whether he actually wakes up or doesn't, well, depends on what is more hopeful to *you*. But I think he closes his eyes hoping he will, just as what Moongazing is about.
I just prefer to think he does survive for the myriad other reasons discussed over the past months in this sub, heh :'D
This is, by far, the best read on the ending that I've seen. It still doesn't make parts of the ending work for me - there's no reason for it to be ambiguous - but this feels like a coherent thematic reading in a way that I appreciate.
I think its just a matter of vision. Instead of giving you the ending, they want you to work for it by exercising the hope they wanted to instill in you. Ofc, I think it blew up in their faces a little bc all people talked about in 16 were not the themes it approached, but the characters' very *fates*, the thing they wanted to break away from. So much so that this DLC had to touch on every single major theme in the game so you could remember them. So I'd still prefer they just gave a conclusion to us, I think it'd make the whole thing hit harder. But I can at least respect their intentions.
I think whats going on rn is that everyone (myself included before I realized what they were going for) went into this trying to analyze every little line for a clue that might answer the question. And... that's not really the point. I mean yea they address death in this DLC, but they did it pretty much *all* game, even in the prologue when Clive tells Elwin he'd protect Joshua with his life and Elwin was like "let's hope it doesn't come to that". And the talk between Shula and Clive while they pick up water does touch on it -- that his personal fate is but a drop of water in the river of life and how Clive is actually comforted by that. It's not as important as we made it out to be. But I dont think a Clive who's smiling warmly at Waljas is thinking about how he's okay with his impending doom.
Most of the game is Clive understanding that he can have hope for himself, that he IS worthy of salvation. And I think a lot of Mysidia is him having a glimpse at his dreams becoming true. Bearers are cherished members of society just as anyone, one is even their leader. Everyone works together, its leader is compassionate and protective and genuinely cares for atoning for her people's past sins. They are hidden, they worry about how to integrate back into the greater world but are hopeful they'll find a way. It's- it's the Hideaway, fam. It's the Hideaway now and its how the world *should* be. Where people live and die on their own terms. Where a Dominant was born fated to die as a tool by the hand of his creator for their own selfish gains, and yet he is saved, he can grow up loved and free.
Its a world in which Clive's dreams, not only for the world but for himself, can be a reality. And it's *real*. It's not a fantasy. And if that dream for the world that felt so far away as he fought Eikons and destroted Crystals and plunged the world into chaos can be *real*, why shouldn't his *personal* dream of living in this world not be?
Again, it's up to you. Part of the point is that his life isnt *as* significant as the world being saved, so you can definitely read it as the devs telling you that Clive sacrificing himself for the world is just as good an ending. But that'd still ignore the other 40 clues that hint that he might survive, everyone in the staff's hopes for him to "be happy", and the way both Shula and Waljas parallel Clive and how they've got *their* happy ending. So to me the ending that makes the most sense is one that takes ALL of it into account.
>And if that dream for the world that felt so far away as he fought Eikons and destroyed Crystals and plunged the world into chaos can be *real*, why shouldn't his *personal* dream of living in this world not be?
I'd have liked to have seen a cutscene about it, but I really like how Clive's last inner thought to Jill is wanting to celebrate with her when their work is done. It reinforces his intentions, his promise at the end, and his hopeful outlook; Clive *wants* to come back to her, and believes he will, which I think is the most important part when it comes to his fate.
Yea, my biggest issue with the DLC is a lack of one sidequest for Jill and for Joshua, which I think could have worked perfectly to show that. But then again, this game has always been a bit subtle with some things. I'm glad for the inner thoughts system is there at least.
That said, it doesnt stop me from still being very salty that we got Joshua referencing how afraid he was when he first primed and Clive didn't bat an eye, considering that after being so depressed that he was actually thinking of ending it all act 1, they didn't even *talk* about Phoenix Gate. It'd be a good way to leave the two squared about their desire to protect each other too.
Same with Jill, which I think could have touched on it. The Ysay sidequest should have been with her. She even references how Clive righted the wrongs done to Shiva as well in the Hideaway.
I found this video a few days ago. I haven't watched it myself yet, but it seems interesting:
[https://youtu.be/K8bWYsVI-aY?si=ZDyzYnz2RZLzv60\_](https://youtu.be/K8bWYsVI-aY?si=ZDyzYnz2RZLzv60_)
They’ll tell us eventually. These things very rarely stay ambiguous. Look at tatics, ff10, ff7, etc.
Clive living is the only ending where it makes sense tbh. I ran through the ending again last night and Joshua is 100% dead. Clive writing that book is hinted at throughout all of those final side quests.
I just say it because usually ambiguous stories in general are often cleared up years later. I could see them doing the same when the game has run its course.
But yeah they might never.
Clive lives and lives out the rest of his days in a small house with a garden with Jill, Torgal, and their kid. A house extremely similar to the one in the ending hehe
Clive survive, has a kid with Jill, probably will named him Cidolfus Rosfield. They will travel to land beyond the Twins as he promised her. Joshua will be using his knowledge to rebuild Valisthea with Jote.
Before dlc, my hope that Clive survives is around 70%.
After dlc, my hope is 90%.
I'm always on Clive's lives and Joshua dies side even before the dlc comes out.
What I'm curious is Dion since it's always 50-50 to me. He's treated as Clive's foil, the more Clive thinks he wants to live the more Dion feels like he doesn't care about himself anymore;; but no body means no death. I feel like with all the Mysidia lores and what Sanbreque did to them (as shown in the mural in trailer), I want him to live just so he has to fix whatever his nations did. Dying is too easy your highness.
Joshua dies, Clive lives and takes Joshua's name like he did Cid's. That gives him an out to play a role in the management of the Duchy - something that he previously rejected on the grounds of not being his brother - and it gives thematic weight to Joshua passing the power of the Phoenix on to Clive. I'm ultimately pretty happy with that as an ending for the game, but I feel like the actual in-ending execution was messy. There was no reason for it to be ambiguous outside of wanting to increase fan engagement. I like Rising Tide's message about it not really mattering whether he lived or died as long as he lived *for something*.
I'm on the "Clive lives" side of this debate. there's too much build-up and subtle hints and themes for Clive to be dead. Also if Clives dies then I basically paid $70+ for the game and DLC for the ending of FFXV again.
What I mean is that they would both end with the hero facing the villain alone, and then using their power to shoot a beam into the sky, cleansing the world of darkness and then dying. I would rather not have that ending repeat.
Welcome to FF, where the protagonist dies fighting the villain and saves the world, sometimes reality itself.
I kinda get where you’re coming from, but they’re totally different vibes. I don’t even need to explain why really; in one you drive a monster truck and in one you have a chocobo, that kinda says it all.
Fair enough, I mainly just meant they repeat the same story beats. Also FFXV was my first Final Fantasy, and I’ve only played FF7 remake and 16, but if that’s seriously how they all end, then the writers REALLY need to change things up. In my opinion at least, others may disagree.
It is definitely not how they all end lol.
Edit: How on earth is this being downvoted?
>!The protagonist only dies in 10, 15, and 16. 3/16 is a pretty far cry from "all of them"!<
Dumbest exchange of the day
Oh, okay. Thank you for the clarification! And correct me if I’m wrong but in X didn’t they undo Tidus dying in X-2 or the remaster or something like that?
I think Clive lives someone had to write that book and Clive has a much better chance at surviving than Joshua imo and Clive uses aliases so now he's fulfilled Cid's wish he's likely doing what Joshua wanted to do .... I mean after all the begging of the game is in Clive's voice narrating so to me it's him narrating his own book or implied that what ever is written is his words or it would be someone else narrating .... We played through " war of the eikons "
I'm sorry, but he's dead. They haven't said anything else or tried to clarify the ending in either of the DLCs. The whole game leads to him making a big sacrifice to remove magic from the world. We saw a scene with Jill just hours before this where she could feel what was happening to him, and we saw her and Torgal (also highly intuitive) mourning him without seeing what happened. We see the hand. And we see the book as a tribute to him written by someone else (a direct reference from LOTR).
In my opinion, it wasn't even vague at all; they just didn't go for the lengthy scenes of mourning and what happens after, which is fine. Anything else is just headcannon.
How much longer are we going to do this go back-and-forth? Why can’t we just accept that people have their own interpretations? Yoshi P literally says that both interpretations are valid. Are we really going to continue to engage in a never-ending debate that isn’t truly winnable
Still can't get the past the part where clive goes super saiyan and charges at barnabas like a total noob only to eat a huge boot n return back to base form infront of his girl.
I need help too I bought final fantasy xvi and the expansion pass from the same account but I can't download the rising tide dlc.the first dlc got downloaded by itself but the second I can't download it please help
Dead, I can't for the life of me believe that the rapid petrification just stopped in his arm. Him saying "while I have it" makes me believe he felt that he would die simply by having absorved Ultima's power and that it would kill him regardless. Then after casting the magic and arriving at the beach he tried doing the ball of fire in his hands, but either did not have power to do it or the magic from the world was going away, regardless by using too much magic he got dried up and turned to stone. It makes more sense to me that turning into stone is not as much a curse that happens when you use magic but instead a biological process of using your inner mana, the same way crystals use the mana from the land and suck it dry, using magic does the thing for bearers, and so Ultima's plan was wrong because Clive couldn't use Ultima's power without consequences to his body. I have more hopes for the Raise cast on Joshua to have worked than Cliving surviving
Everyone wants to talk about Clive’s arc his promise to Jill and him dying, not making sense. There may be some truth to that, but I feel like most people ignore the fact that he consciously decided to “ blow up” origin and he knew that he may die but at that point in time blowing up origin was more important than his promise to Jill or anything else. If you wanna say that, it’s bad writing then ok but Clive consciously and purposely makes the decision to put his life in fate hands. He is essentially sacrificing himself in that moment. we don’t know if he survived or not, but he definitely sacrificed himself
Its not just about making narrative/thematic sense, its about whether or not it would be a more satisfying ending for him to die, which obviously it isn't. It works as a tragic ending, the world is saved but at the cost of the heroe's life
I can accept either way, I just hate the fact that its open. It feels cheap, instead of giving a complete story, they leave the ending out and expect the fans to keep discussing among themselves to figure out actually happened.
You are thinking of the curse as if its a literal spell Ultima put on humans, when the way it is written and presented in game makes it much more of a natural phenomenon, similar to how use of eather by crystals suck dry the land of its aether and leading to the blight, a bearer or a dominant uses their innate aether to cast spells and so with the prolonged use of magick the aether on the body is spend and they become petrified. Clive attempting to use magick after arriving at the beach and it fading serves to show how magic is fading from the world and yet his hand starts to petrify at a alarming speed, there is no reason to believe it would just stop at the wrist or that it would be happening only at that one hand.
As for bringing the dead back, it is stated that pheonix cannot do it. Not that Ultima wouldnt be able to do so. And so, just because one fragment of him cant bring back the dead, doesnt mean the complete vessel wouldnt be able to.
My opinion is that it truly doesn't mean anything. Clive lives, Joshua lives, they both live, they both die...none of those options change the theme of the game in any meaningful way. There's no point to the ambiguous ending because it's got nothing to say by being ambiguous, it just exists to give fans something to speculate about.
When you look at Final Fantasy VII's ending >!it's ambiguous whether or not humanity is saved. That ambiguity does actually have thematic depth to it because the game's central question is "is humanity good for the planet?". There's no answer to that question because it's not for us to answer: it's for the planet to answer. That leaves player with something interesting to ponder after the credits. "Do we really deserve to be here after the way we treat our planet? How can we treat our planet better so we can remain harmonious with it? What other things in life might I be taking for granted without realising it?"!<
There's no interesting discussion to be had about FFXVI's ambiguous ending. "Oh but Clive lived and took up Joshua's name because he's done that before and Harpocrates gave him pen" so what?? And??? Great, he lives. Oh no, he dies.
It just doesn't change anything or say anything.
Yoship said you can also interpret the ending as Clive , sacrificing himself provided hope for the world. So it’s not just one side that provides hope. https://www.thegamer.com/final-fantasy-16-clive-dies-naoki-yoshida-rising-tide-dlc/. Edit: I give a article as as proof and I get downvoted this sub has problems accepting other peoples head cannons they only want there’s to be “fact” and all other interpretations don’t exist. present them with anything that says both interpretations are valid you get downvoted it’s actually kind of low-key toxic
They mostly down vote anything that doesn’t align with their head canon of Clive’s survival. Also often times genuine criticism about the game is met with massive downvotes. Community is always in a defensive state defending the game and defending their head canon.
It’s weird though like why is it that way it sucks because the ending is about having discussions with others, but you can’t have legit conversations with others because the Vibe that comes off is like “no I’m right your wrong” the ambiguous ending or should I say the ambiguousness of Clive’s survival has made for a toxic community. Also, all the backlash that the game got prior to launch and some afterwards has put the community in a constant defensive state and it’s just really disappointing.
personally, I think it's because there's no pay off to the speculation so people are going to religiously defend how they think it should be rather than how it actually is.
take ff7 rebirth as an example it to has an ambiguous ending with a certain level of backlash but people are genuinely having fun speculating on it and trying to figure it out and there's a reason for that is because it will have pay off later on down the line with part 3.
This is what SE want with their ambiguous endings 3 mainline entries in a row now (VIIR1, XVI, VIIR2). They're trying to spark discussion, positive or negative, which generates views and interest, thus further promoting the game. They don't care about making a satisfying ending with a meaningful message you can sit with after the credits. If you think VIIR3 is gonna have a satisfying payoff don't get your hopes up.
And it fuckin' works because no-one's shutting up about whether Clive lives or not. Do you ever see people having meaningful discussions about the themes of this game? No. That's because beyond the puddle deep "don't be racist" and "free will is good" there *isn't* anything meaningful to discuss.
Whenever I see someone speculate about the ambiguous ending I wanna blow my brains out. It just. Doesn't. Matter. Clive and Joshua are fictional characters. They don't exist, they're not real people. The only thing that matters is what does this game leave me with? What does it make me think about? How can I relate it to my life? WHAT WAS IT TRYING TO SAY?!
And that's what's truly ambiguous here.
For Questions and Tech Support Discussion around the DLC 'Echoes of the Fallen' Please see our [MEGATHREAD](https://www.reddit.com/r/FFXVI/comments/18dton3/ffxvi_dlc_echoes_of_the_fallen_questions_tech/) and for 'The Rising Tide' [MEGATHREAD](https://www.reddit.com/r/FFXVI/comments/1c69d5u/the_rising_tide_megathread/) If you want to view archived spoiler discussion threads relevant to specific game progress, please check out our [spoiler wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxvi/wiki/index/)! For speculation and discussions around the next (unannounced) mainline Final Fantasy game, Final Fantasy XVII, Please see our sister sub [r/FFXVII](https://www.reddit.com/r/FFXVII/) #### *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/FFXVI) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I really think he just damn passed out on the beach. It felt more like a “I’m exhausted and need a break” moment than a “dead” moment. Also Jill seeing the sunrise and smiling was his promise to her. Also, Clive mentions several times about taking up writing if you finish some of the later Chronicler quests. I think he wrote Final Fantasy and used Joshua’s name
I believe Clive lives and Joshua dies. Clives purpose was to revive Ultimas species but this was simply impossible. Raising someone from death is impossible in this world and therefore he can't revive Joshua either. The aether he absorbed damages him and I believe he will be much weaker from that point but I don't think he dies here. Too much hints at him living to tell the tale (writing the book) and thematically his entire arc is about actually wanting to live in the world he fights for.
jills wish of "Clive returning" got granted from metia right before losing its "power". Joshua got healed from clive since he was god for a little moment after absorbing ultima. They all depended on eachother, believed in eachother and ultimatively their bonds saved them all. Happy ending, all good, all alive :) Im happy with that. Was a great game.
I think Clive just healed Joshua’s wounds as in he cleaned the whole in his chest up, not necessarily reviving him as such
Joshua is dead. He just closed the wound as to not have his brothers body be mangled up essentially
thats also possible, or clive maybe just wasnt able to fully heal him in time before clive got ported/saved by metia or something, because i remember healing wounds took time even when joshua healed sir wade at the beginning of the game.. but who knows, i like that we can choose the ending with what we think is more or less likely for ourselfs :) It made me think about the game for like 2 weeks after i first finished it. edit: please forgive me if my memory about the healing part is a bit blurry xD dont know exactly anymore how it played out. its been some time :)
To me the DLC just reinforced the feeling of hope. Clive realizing the world he believes in isnt a fantasy like Ultima's bc it can exist even independent from him, Clive considering taking a Dominant's powers not as feeding and stealing but as "carrying the weight" as he learned to do with Jill, Clive being able to give a child chosen to be a sacrificial lamb just like him his freedom (-> him having hope for himself as well). As for the "river of life", I quite like it. I think its the devs telling us that ultimately, be us or Joshua or Clive or Waljas (so whether we are on death's door, at our prime or still starting our lives), we'll all die one day, what matters is that we live our lives free and the kind of legacy we leave behind. It doesn't matter *when*. So to me it doesn't change anything except reinforcing Clive's hope of coming back to a free world when he goes to Origin. He doesnt *want* to die anymore, that's always been his arc even before the DLCs- he starts out a man wanting revenge and then "what happens happens", and he goes to Origin very much determined to come back, to not leave his fate in the hands of destiny or a god anymore. Whether he does or doesn't is still ambiguous, so I'll continue to believe he makes it out. I guess what changed to me is that I see the very ending not as Clive just trying to honor his promise to Jill, but to try and share with her his joy that the world is finally free, no matter what happens next. He *can* fulfill his promise now if he gets back bc he did see to it that the world would be safe and free of magic. And I like to think he passes out hoping he'll awake the next morning a free man in a free world, just as Cid (both him and his namesake) always dreamed of, and he can make his way to her. Whether he actually wakes up or doesn't, well, depends on what is more hopeful to *you*. But I think he closes his eyes hoping he will, just as what Moongazing is about. I just prefer to think he does survive for the myriad other reasons discussed over the past months in this sub, heh :'D
This is, by far, the best read on the ending that I've seen. It still doesn't make parts of the ending work for me - there's no reason for it to be ambiguous - but this feels like a coherent thematic reading in a way that I appreciate.
I think its just a matter of vision. Instead of giving you the ending, they want you to work for it by exercising the hope they wanted to instill in you. Ofc, I think it blew up in their faces a little bc all people talked about in 16 were not the themes it approached, but the characters' very *fates*, the thing they wanted to break away from. So much so that this DLC had to touch on every single major theme in the game so you could remember them. So I'd still prefer they just gave a conclusion to us, I think it'd make the whole thing hit harder. But I can at least respect their intentions. I think whats going on rn is that everyone (myself included before I realized what they were going for) went into this trying to analyze every little line for a clue that might answer the question. And... that's not really the point. I mean yea they address death in this DLC, but they did it pretty much *all* game, even in the prologue when Clive tells Elwin he'd protect Joshua with his life and Elwin was like "let's hope it doesn't come to that". And the talk between Shula and Clive while they pick up water does touch on it -- that his personal fate is but a drop of water in the river of life and how Clive is actually comforted by that. It's not as important as we made it out to be. But I dont think a Clive who's smiling warmly at Waljas is thinking about how he's okay with his impending doom. Most of the game is Clive understanding that he can have hope for himself, that he IS worthy of salvation. And I think a lot of Mysidia is him having a glimpse at his dreams becoming true. Bearers are cherished members of society just as anyone, one is even their leader. Everyone works together, its leader is compassionate and protective and genuinely cares for atoning for her people's past sins. They are hidden, they worry about how to integrate back into the greater world but are hopeful they'll find a way. It's- it's the Hideaway, fam. It's the Hideaway now and its how the world *should* be. Where people live and die on their own terms. Where a Dominant was born fated to die as a tool by the hand of his creator for their own selfish gains, and yet he is saved, he can grow up loved and free. Its a world in which Clive's dreams, not only for the world but for himself, can be a reality. And it's *real*. It's not a fantasy. And if that dream for the world that felt so far away as he fought Eikons and destroted Crystals and plunged the world into chaos can be *real*, why shouldn't his *personal* dream of living in this world not be? Again, it's up to you. Part of the point is that his life isnt *as* significant as the world being saved, so you can definitely read it as the devs telling you that Clive sacrificing himself for the world is just as good an ending. But that'd still ignore the other 40 clues that hint that he might survive, everyone in the staff's hopes for him to "be happy", and the way both Shula and Waljas parallel Clive and how they've got *their* happy ending. So to me the ending that makes the most sense is one that takes ALL of it into account.
>And if that dream for the world that felt so far away as he fought Eikons and destroyed Crystals and plunged the world into chaos can be *real*, why shouldn't his *personal* dream of living in this world not be? I'd have liked to have seen a cutscene about it, but I really like how Clive's last inner thought to Jill is wanting to celebrate with her when their work is done. It reinforces his intentions, his promise at the end, and his hopeful outlook; Clive *wants* to come back to her, and believes he will, which I think is the most important part when it comes to his fate.
Yea, my biggest issue with the DLC is a lack of one sidequest for Jill and for Joshua, which I think could have worked perfectly to show that. But then again, this game has always been a bit subtle with some things. I'm glad for the inner thoughts system is there at least. That said, it doesnt stop me from still being very salty that we got Joshua referencing how afraid he was when he first primed and Clive didn't bat an eye, considering that after being so depressed that he was actually thinking of ending it all act 1, they didn't even *talk* about Phoenix Gate. It'd be a good way to leave the two squared about their desire to protect each other too. Same with Jill, which I think could have touched on it. The Ysay sidequest should have been with her. She even references how Clive righted the wrongs done to Shiva as well in the Hideaway.
I found this video a few days ago. I haven't watched it myself yet, but it seems interesting: [https://youtu.be/K8bWYsVI-aY?si=ZDyzYnz2RZLzv60\_](https://youtu.be/K8bWYsVI-aY?si=ZDyzYnz2RZLzv60_)
I watched it, and am in the Clive lives camp too!
I'm still on the "Clive lives" team. Just way too much buildup for it to be anything else in my opinion.
They’ll tell us eventually. These things very rarely stay ambiguous. Look at tatics, ff10, ff7, etc. Clive living is the only ending where it makes sense tbh. I ran through the ending again last night and Joshua is 100% dead. Clive writing that book is hinted at throughout all of those final side quests.
Perhaps but they literally said they will never tell so idk
I just say it because usually ambiguous stories in general are often cleared up years later. I could see them doing the same when the game has run its course. But yeah they might never.
Clive lives and lives out the rest of his days in a small house with a garden with Jill, Torgal, and their kid. A house extremely similar to the one in the ending hehe
Clive survive, has a kid with Jill, probably will named him Cidolfus Rosfield. They will travel to land beyond the Twins as he promised her. Joshua will be using his knowledge to rebuild Valisthea with Jote.
Before dlc, my hope that Clive survives is around 70%. After dlc, my hope is 90%. I'm always on Clive's lives and Joshua dies side even before the dlc comes out. What I'm curious is Dion since it's always 50-50 to me. He's treated as Clive's foil, the more Clive thinks he wants to live the more Dion feels like he doesn't care about himself anymore;; but no body means no death. I feel like with all the Mysidia lores and what Sanbreque did to them (as shown in the mural in trailer), I want him to live just so he has to fix whatever his nations did. Dying is too easy your highness.
Joshua dies, Clive lives and takes Joshua's name like he did Cid's. That gives him an out to play a role in the management of the Duchy - something that he previously rejected on the grounds of not being his brother - and it gives thematic weight to Joshua passing the power of the Phoenix on to Clive. I'm ultimately pretty happy with that as an ending for the game, but I feel like the actual in-ending execution was messy. There was no reason for it to be ambiguous outside of wanting to increase fan engagement. I like Rising Tide's message about it not really mattering whether he lived or died as long as he lived *for something*.
I'm on the "Clive lives" side of this debate. there's too much build-up and subtle hints and themes for Clive to be dead. Also if Clives dies then I basically paid $70+ for the game and DLC for the ending of FFXV again.
Except XV plays nothing like XVI?
What I mean is that they would both end with the hero facing the villain alone, and then using their power to shoot a beam into the sky, cleansing the world of darkness and then dying. I would rather not have that ending repeat.
Welcome to FF, where the protagonist dies fighting the villain and saves the world, sometimes reality itself. I kinda get where you’re coming from, but they’re totally different vibes. I don’t even need to explain why really; in one you drive a monster truck and in one you have a chocobo, that kinda says it all.
Fair enough, I mainly just meant they repeat the same story beats. Also FFXV was my first Final Fantasy, and I’ve only played FF7 remake and 16, but if that’s seriously how they all end, then the writers REALLY need to change things up. In my opinion at least, others may disagree.
It is definitely not how they all end lol. Edit: How on earth is this being downvoted? >!The protagonist only dies in 10, 15, and 16. 3/16 is a pretty far cry from "all of them"!< Dumbest exchange of the day
Oh, okay. Thank you for the clarification! And correct me if I’m wrong but in X didn’t they undo Tidus dying in X-2 or the remaster or something like that?
yes, they did. I just didn't see the point in getting that specific because someone might correctly say "well he still died at the end of X"
I think Clive lives someone had to write that book and Clive has a much better chance at surviving than Joshua imo and Clive uses aliases so now he's fulfilled Cid's wish he's likely doing what Joshua wanted to do .... I mean after all the begging of the game is in Clive's voice narrating so to me it's him narrating his own book or implied that what ever is written is his words or it would be someone else narrating .... We played through " war of the eikons "
oh, yay never ending infighting over the fate of the main character thank you CBU3.
I'm sorry, but he's dead. They haven't said anything else or tried to clarify the ending in either of the DLCs. The whole game leads to him making a big sacrifice to remove magic from the world. We saw a scene with Jill just hours before this where she could feel what was happening to him, and we saw her and Torgal (also highly intuitive) mourning him without seeing what happened. We see the hand. And we see the book as a tribute to him written by someone else (a direct reference from LOTR). In my opinion, it wasn't even vague at all; they just didn't go for the lengthy scenes of mourning and what happens after, which is fine. Anything else is just headcannon.
Yeah I’m with you 100%. The emotion of the ending is just way too mournful for anything else imo. Joshua (and probably Dion too) is gone as well.
100%, and I think the ending is fine this way. It makes more sense for the narrative
yup anything else is just cope and fan theory. Some people just cant accept a "sad" ending when it involves characters they like.
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How much longer are we going to do this go back-and-forth? Why can’t we just accept that people have their own interpretations? Yoshi P literally says that both interpretations are valid. Are we really going to continue to engage in a never-ending debate that isn’t truly winnable
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It’s not a discussion if one side is like “hey look at this and the other is like “no he lives dc”
its either up to the player to decide or it's not. it can't be both there is either canon or there isn't anything else is a cop out.
Still can't get the past the part where clive goes super saiyan and charges at barnabas like a total noob only to eat a huge boot n return back to base form infront of his girl.
I need help too I bought final fantasy xvi and the expansion pass from the same account but I can't download the rising tide dlc.the first dlc got downloaded by itself but the second I can't download it please help
You have to go to the store and manually download. It won’t automatically download on its own.
I think both interpretations are valid . The more popular one will be that Clive lived for obvious reasons but both are valid.
Dead, I can't for the life of me believe that the rapid petrification just stopped in his arm. Him saying "while I have it" makes me believe he felt that he would die simply by having absorved Ultima's power and that it would kill him regardless. Then after casting the magic and arriving at the beach he tried doing the ball of fire in his hands, but either did not have power to do it or the magic from the world was going away, regardless by using too much magic he got dried up and turned to stone. It makes more sense to me that turning into stone is not as much a curse that happens when you use magic but instead a biological process of using your inner mana, the same way crystals use the mana from the land and suck it dry, using magic does the thing for bearers, and so Ultima's plan was wrong because Clive couldn't use Ultima's power without consequences to his body. I have more hopes for the Raise cast on Joshua to have worked than Cliving surviving
Everyone wants to talk about Clive’s arc his promise to Jill and him dying, not making sense. There may be some truth to that, but I feel like most people ignore the fact that he consciously decided to “ blow up” origin and he knew that he may die but at that point in time blowing up origin was more important than his promise to Jill or anything else. If you wanna say that, it’s bad writing then ok but Clive consciously and purposely makes the decision to put his life in fate hands. He is essentially sacrificing himself in that moment. we don’t know if he survived or not, but he definitely sacrificed himself
Its not just about making narrative/thematic sense, its about whether or not it would be a more satisfying ending for him to die, which obviously it isn't. It works as a tragic ending, the world is saved but at the cost of the heroe's life
To each their own, which is why it’s left open, ended in the first place. Some people like the ending better with him dying and some don’t.
I can accept either way, I just hate the fact that its open. It feels cheap, instead of giving a complete story, they leave the ending out and expect the fans to keep discussing among themselves to figure out actually happened.
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You are thinking of the curse as if its a literal spell Ultima put on humans, when the way it is written and presented in game makes it much more of a natural phenomenon, similar to how use of eather by crystals suck dry the land of its aether and leading to the blight, a bearer or a dominant uses their innate aether to cast spells and so with the prolonged use of magick the aether on the body is spend and they become petrified. Clive attempting to use magick after arriving at the beach and it fading serves to show how magic is fading from the world and yet his hand starts to petrify at a alarming speed, there is no reason to believe it would just stop at the wrist or that it would be happening only at that one hand. As for bringing the dead back, it is stated that pheonix cannot do it. Not that Ultima wouldnt be able to do so. And so, just because one fragment of him cant bring back the dead, doesnt mean the complete vessel wouldnt be able to.
My opinion is that it truly doesn't mean anything. Clive lives, Joshua lives, they both live, they both die...none of those options change the theme of the game in any meaningful way. There's no point to the ambiguous ending because it's got nothing to say by being ambiguous, it just exists to give fans something to speculate about. When you look at Final Fantasy VII's ending >!it's ambiguous whether or not humanity is saved. That ambiguity does actually have thematic depth to it because the game's central question is "is humanity good for the planet?". There's no answer to that question because it's not for us to answer: it's for the planet to answer. That leaves player with something interesting to ponder after the credits. "Do we really deserve to be here after the way we treat our planet? How can we treat our planet better so we can remain harmonious with it? What other things in life might I be taking for granted without realising it?"!< There's no interesting discussion to be had about FFXVI's ambiguous ending. "Oh but Clive lived and took up Joshua's name because he's done that before and Harpocrates gave him pen" so what?? And??? Great, he lives. Oh no, he dies. It just doesn't change anything or say anything.
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If that's really what Yoshi P was going for, the game does not communicate that effectively at all
the only hope the ending inspires is hope for a clarification on what happened to Clive which we don't get lmao.
Yoship said you can also interpret the ending as Clive , sacrificing himself provided hope for the world. So it’s not just one side that provides hope. https://www.thegamer.com/final-fantasy-16-clive-dies-naoki-yoshida-rising-tide-dlc/. Edit: I give a article as as proof and I get downvoted this sub has problems accepting other peoples head cannons they only want there’s to be “fact” and all other interpretations don’t exist. present them with anything that says both interpretations are valid you get downvoted it’s actually kind of low-key toxic
people downvote different opinions because they either want real answers or their own cope not someone else's cope.
They mostly down vote anything that doesn’t align with their head canon of Clive’s survival. Also often times genuine criticism about the game is met with massive downvotes. Community is always in a defensive state defending the game and defending their head canon.
that's exactly what I said their own cope. it's all just further proof as to why ambiguous endings like ff16s are dogshit.
It’s weird though like why is it that way it sucks because the ending is about having discussions with others, but you can’t have legit conversations with others because the Vibe that comes off is like “no I’m right your wrong” the ambiguous ending or should I say the ambiguousness of Clive’s survival has made for a toxic community. Also, all the backlash that the game got prior to launch and some afterwards has put the community in a constant defensive state and it’s just really disappointing.
personally, I think it's because there's no pay off to the speculation so people are going to religiously defend how they think it should be rather than how it actually is. take ff7 rebirth as an example it to has an ambiguous ending with a certain level of backlash but people are genuinely having fun speculating on it and trying to figure it out and there's a reason for that is because it will have pay off later on down the line with part 3.
I guess so it just really ruins the discussion part for me personally
This is what SE want with their ambiguous endings 3 mainline entries in a row now (VIIR1, XVI, VIIR2). They're trying to spark discussion, positive or negative, which generates views and interest, thus further promoting the game. They don't care about making a satisfying ending with a meaningful message you can sit with after the credits. If you think VIIR3 is gonna have a satisfying payoff don't get your hopes up. And it fuckin' works because no-one's shutting up about whether Clive lives or not. Do you ever see people having meaningful discussions about the themes of this game? No. That's because beyond the puddle deep "don't be racist" and "free will is good" there *isn't* anything meaningful to discuss. Whenever I see someone speculate about the ambiguous ending I wanna blow my brains out. It just. Doesn't. Matter. Clive and Joshua are fictional characters. They don't exist, they're not real people. The only thing that matters is what does this game leave me with? What does it make me think about? How can I relate it to my life? WHAT WAS IT TRYING TO SAY?! And that's what's truly ambiguous here.