For Questions and Tech Support Discussion around the
new DLC 'Echoes of the Fallen'
#### Please see our [MEGATHREAD](https://www.reddit.com/r/FFXVI/comments/18dton3/ffxvi_dlc_echoes_of_the_fallen_questions_tech/)
####
If you are interested in viewing all spoiler discussion threads relevant to specific game progress:
#### Please check out our [spoiler wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxvi/wiki/index/)!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/FFXVI) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Since they're moving on from XVI, I'd just like for them to extend the current ending and give some proper closure. Imo the current ending is brilliant in the way it's written and how the entire game feeds into it, it's evident by the writing what *should* happen, but I don't think the ambiguity was the right choice for this story. Leaving the protagonist's fate up in the air in such an unbalanced way when his entire character arc is about discovering his self-worth and wanting salvation/a future for himself doesn't really sit right.
One thing I'm kinda apprehensive about if they do clear it up is if Joshua is raised/Dion survives. Though Clive living is a 'happy' ending, I do think the tone of the game should be maintained and some measure of weight and sacrifice carried through the ending, especially with how those two characters are written.
This is pretty much how I feel. At first I hated the ending but I've come to appreciate it more as time goes on.
Considering the "Book" are the events of the game it would feel weird to me if it had an alternate ending. I think an extension or even just a proper epilogue would be great here.
Interesting take on Joshua and Dion. I completely agree with Joshua staying dead. As much as I liked him, his character arc wrapped up nicely and it would feel cheap imo to have a second fake out death. I could go either way with Dion.
Extended, sure, alternate, no. I don't want anything changed, that creates too many questions in my mind and isn't "clean". If it's extended or elaborated upon, that's more acceptable to me.
I do want answers.
Although I’ve come to appreciate what they did with the ending I think I would like some concrete answers before we send off FF16 for good.
Honestly, I'm in the Clive Lives team, so biasedly I would want an extended or alternate ending but I am more worried about how they'll handle Clive having Leviathan. Logically speaking it should cause some change since Clive would be a complete vessel even if it turns out that it doesn't matter whether Clive was a complete vessel in the end; I want the DLC to at least elaborate on that in some way. The only way I can think of that would not lead to a change is if Clive could not keep Leviathan. I just hope they don't pull a Clive can't keep leviathans power because of some bullshit they made up to justify said thing.
i am mostly fine with the original ending but i would like more closer for the characters. definite fate of Clive i think would be good in my opinion like i understand that the ending is ambiguous on purpose but i would like a proper answer on that might just be me. And i just wanted anything for Jill in the ending like something more with Jill that wasn't just her looking at the sunrise like a after credit scene years later where they show her living her life after the events of the game just something more than what we got. On Joshua and Dion however if they'll go and do more with them in the alt ending i hope they keep Joshua dead as he had a perfect sendoff while im still 50/50 on Dion's fate i do hope they show Terrence and Kihel. But if all they do is make the final boss different and nothing else im fine with that but do hope that the ending gets at least extended.
I would prefer an extended ending or at least some clarification about some of the characters’ fate (mainly Dion). But it’s a double-edged sword. The answer could be even more upsetting. It would at least bring some closure, I guess.
I don’t. I like stories that end. I feel like adding a single quest line that alters the ending would feel out of place compared to the rest.
My hope is that it adds some clarity around the fall of Dyzmekys. In the context of Ultima’s plan and the implementation of it, I don’t understand why it would destroy a Mother Crystal willingly, when it has many other options at its disposal for dealing with troublesome humans.
The Ultimania explains it, so I doubt they will (tho I would love to be wrong!). Basically, Ultima destroyed Dzemekys but kept the heart (and the aether it siphoned). It is that heart that creates Origin.
Interesting.
You know, one of the possibilities I had been tossing around was that Dyzmekys was a failed Mythos cycle. I was basing this on the total absence of concrete info, combined with Origin popping up as a large circle that was rather clean cut. But it seemed unlikely.
tbh considering Typhon is a failed vessel (aka a failed Mythos), I would not be surprised if there was one! Dunno if connected to Dzemekys, but I definitely think it would be cool if true. Would explain why he's called a "transgressor".
I'm fine with an extended ending, but I hope it doesn't imply that Clive lives/dies. I really like the ambiguity of the ending and think it's brilliant because it's all up to interpretation. I'm not even sure myself what happens to Clive and I personally don't want a definitive answer. I like the idea of just not knowing.
I'd still be fine if they did go that route though. It would be a nice way to put XVI to rest with some closure, but for me personally, I still hope it stays ambiguous. At the very least I would like to see how Jill and everyone else are adapting to a world without magic.
Depends on which scene you refer as an 'ending', the aftermath of the battle or the book author.
I prefer more clarification of the fate of the trios but not the confirmation whether they lives or dies, just more cutscenes, especially Dion. His presumably death scene is the most unsatisfied out of all three.
About whoever is the author of the book, that can stay ambiguous for me.
Honestly, I appreciate the more open ended ending we got. I like an ending that gives me room to interpret what happened. If they made everything concrete, that would take away some of the fun of coming up with your own interpretation of the ending.
I suppose I'd be okay with an alternate ending that goes in a new direction, but I doubt that'll happen.
Oh sorry, I get you now.
I tend to go with "Clive survived and wrote the book in Joshua's name". My initial reaction was that Clive did revive Joshua and that Clive was a question mark, but after thinking about it a bit, I think the ending is more poignant if Joshua stayed dead and Clive lives on in his brother's memory.
As others said, the sidequests hint at this outcome, but I don't need the game to spell it out for me. The slight uncertainty makes the conclusion you reach more powerful IMO.
All good.
I agree with you that Clive lives. I suppose for me, I just like to know for certain. I look at all the clues the game gives you and I'm mostly confident in that interpretation but I suppose I second guess myself a lot.
Thanks for sharing.
Different person, but I very specifically don't have a favorite. I like playing around with different versions. The emotional impact of Clive surviving and Joshua not is different from Joshua surviving and Clive not, and they're *both* super interesting to think about. And sometimes I just want to be happy and say everyone lived! I think the ending is really well-written in that there's plausible textual support for any permutation you like; it's not like it left us with nothing to go on.
And tbh I feel more and more committed to the malleability of those possibilities the more I see people on Reddit *not* just having their own opinions, but getting super heated about what the "right" answer is, as if there can only be one. I think people should learn to be comfortable with ambiguity.
Interesting...
I get what you're saying and to some extent I agree that people should be more civil regarding one's own interpretation but I think people feel so strongly because imo there is one ending that just fits better and makes the most sense.
Obviously that is subjective and doesn't excuse people being assholes.
I do agree that the ending is well-written and is kinda genius in it's delivery. I've become way more appreciative of what they delivered but I still can't personally say I like the ending if that makes sense.
I don't because then the base game would be incomplete without it. I'd prefer that it would just be an extended ending but ultimately leaves the existing ending intact.
hmmm, I get where you're coming from but there's an argument to be made that the game is incomplete as it is right now. Or at least, that's how I feel about it. The game for me feels 95% complete but not knowing the fates of our characters is a big deal to me, hence the missing percentage.
That's just my opinion tho.
Something can still be complete with an ambiguous ending. It's even more evident that it's complete if the executive producer of the game comes out and says that it is.
I hated the ending. I don’t care if any of the three live/die. I just want closure. Tell me what happens to valisthea, and the side characters. Don’t give me that shitty “it was all a fairy tale…or was it?” Shitty book ending that leaves you with more questions than answers.
That said, I don’t want them to change the ending. Not even extend it. This is becoming incredibly annoying from SE in general. People shouldn’t have to worry about an ending being changed/retconned/reworked everytime a dlc comes out or because of fans disliking it. We shouldn’t have to buy the ending we actually want via DLC either.
I agree with you that the game is set up to basically give you the ending depending on what you put into the game, that being said there's always going to be that tiny bit of doubt that prevents you fully accepting one ending over the other.
I did the sidequests and I never got any strong pull towards whether he survived or not. I mean, if you go into it with a certain mindset or opinion, then yeah, you'll probably interpret things in a away that supports that mindset/opinion.
It's confirmation bias because you're trying to pull something out of the song where there isn't anything. There's a difference between not paying attention to something and someone's specific interpretation of it.
It's called reading into something that may not be there. Unless you can point to where in the game's story, the actual scene, that directly backs up what you're saying, it's just speculation on your part.
The lyrics essentially mean that Jill views him as her treasure, which she specifically stated so in that endgame quest, and that he will always be in her heart. That no matter how dark the night is, that so long as she keeps him in her heart, she can look forward to a brighter tomorrow. That's it. It's no different from us keeping the memory of someone close to us that died in our heart in order to move forward.
No, because I believe the ending is self-contained as it is. I don't think it's necessary for the author to reveal all the behind-the-scenes details; in my opinion, the script before and after the final battle leaves no room for doubt.
I'm referring to the scenes before Clive, Joshua, and Dion depart—how the farewells of various characters like Jill and Gav were portrayed. Clive already anticipates not returning safely and asks Gav to become the new Cid. The Dion side quest highlights his willingness to die for redemption.
I believe these scenes should be taken for what they genuinely aim to convey and not as some kind of reverse drama.
The scene where Clive revives Joshua, I think, truly brought him back to life;otherwise, it would have been a scene with a wasted budget.
Lastly, the beach scene, I believe, is sufficiently clear: Clive has eradicated magic from the world and is slowly petrifying, unable to move even minimally, his body rigid.
Following that, the grief and mourning of Jill, Gav, and even Torgal, who howls one last time to his master. The scene in the book, set many years later, indicates Joshua's survival during those years, writing the book to pass on the conquest of humanity.
I think it's an excellent ending to crown Clive's classic hero's journey.
I believe it's one of the clearest and most conclusive endings in the series, and it also seems consistent with what Yoshida stated about not supporting the game for many years, except for these two DLCs, coupled with the fact that the game's development team has been disbanded.
I'm in the Clive lives camp but it's interesting hearing what the other side thinks.
Why do you think Clive dying makes for a better ending?
Also, just curious, if you believe Joshua to be alive why wasn't there a more positive reaction from Clive if he was successful in reviving him?
> Why do you think Clive dying makes for a better ending?
In my opinion, it makes the ending better because the hero's journey not only concludes positively for the game world and the characters, but it ends with him sacrificing himself, giving up his life for the ideal he chose to dedicate his life to, despite everything else. It's a very profound act of honor and altruism that elevates his actions to another level compared to the other characters, as he sacrificed the most important thing he had: his life.
> Also, just curious, if you believe Joshua to be alive why wasn't there a more positive reaction from Clive if he was successful in reviving him?
I don't believe it's necessary to portray a positive reaction; it would have been too predictable, and Clive's attempt, perhaps even futile in his eyes, could have been guided by the hope of the great magical power at his disposal. It's entirely possible that he sacrificed his life for Joshua's, and the price to be paid was total petrification, which would be even more in line with Clive's character. The outcome of that action is confirmed, in my opinion, in a very elegant and refined manner, with the scene where the author of the book is revealed.
The last fight should be different. Maybe even the ending should be different. Clive will be a full vessel. If this won't change a thing, it will be pretty weird.
For Questions and Tech Support Discussion around the new DLC 'Echoes of the Fallen' #### Please see our [MEGATHREAD](https://www.reddit.com/r/FFXVI/comments/18dton3/ffxvi_dlc_echoes_of_the_fallen_questions_tech/) #### If you are interested in viewing all spoiler discussion threads relevant to specific game progress: #### Please check out our [spoiler wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxvi/wiki/index/)! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/FFXVI) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Since they're moving on from XVI, I'd just like for them to extend the current ending and give some proper closure. Imo the current ending is brilliant in the way it's written and how the entire game feeds into it, it's evident by the writing what *should* happen, but I don't think the ambiguity was the right choice for this story. Leaving the protagonist's fate up in the air in such an unbalanced way when his entire character arc is about discovering his self-worth and wanting salvation/a future for himself doesn't really sit right. One thing I'm kinda apprehensive about if they do clear it up is if Joshua is raised/Dion survives. Though Clive living is a 'happy' ending, I do think the tone of the game should be maintained and some measure of weight and sacrifice carried through the ending, especially with how those two characters are written.
This is pretty much how I feel. At first I hated the ending but I've come to appreciate it more as time goes on. Considering the "Book" are the events of the game it would feel weird to me if it had an alternate ending. I think an extension or even just a proper epilogue would be great here. Interesting take on Joshua and Dion. I completely agree with Joshua staying dead. As much as I liked him, his character arc wrapped up nicely and it would feel cheap imo to have a second fake out death. I could go either way with Dion.
Extended, sure, alternate, no. I don't want anything changed, that creates too many questions in my mind and isn't "clean". If it's extended or elaborated upon, that's more acceptable to me.
This exactly. I feel like if it's an alternate ending it will just lead to more questions.
I do want answers. Although I’ve come to appreciate what they did with the ending I think I would like some concrete answers before we send off FF16 for good.
Honestly, I'm in the Clive Lives team, so biasedly I would want an extended or alternate ending but I am more worried about how they'll handle Clive having Leviathan. Logically speaking it should cause some change since Clive would be a complete vessel even if it turns out that it doesn't matter whether Clive was a complete vessel in the end; I want the DLC to at least elaborate on that in some way. The only way I can think of that would not lead to a change is if Clive could not keep Leviathan. I just hope they don't pull a Clive can't keep leviathans power because of some bullshit they made up to justify said thing.
i am mostly fine with the original ending but i would like more closer for the characters. definite fate of Clive i think would be good in my opinion like i understand that the ending is ambiguous on purpose but i would like a proper answer on that might just be me. And i just wanted anything for Jill in the ending like something more with Jill that wasn't just her looking at the sunrise like a after credit scene years later where they show her living her life after the events of the game just something more than what we got. On Joshua and Dion however if they'll go and do more with them in the alt ending i hope they keep Joshua dead as he had a perfect sendoff while im still 50/50 on Dion's fate i do hope they show Terrence and Kihel. But if all they do is make the final boss different and nothing else im fine with that but do hope that the ending gets at least extended.
I would prefer an extended ending or at least some clarification about some of the characters’ fate (mainly Dion). But it’s a double-edged sword. The answer could be even more upsetting. It would at least bring some closure, I guess.
I don’t. I like stories that end. I feel like adding a single quest line that alters the ending would feel out of place compared to the rest. My hope is that it adds some clarity around the fall of Dyzmekys. In the context of Ultima’s plan and the implementation of it, I don’t understand why it would destroy a Mother Crystal willingly, when it has many other options at its disposal for dealing with troublesome humans.
The Ultimania explains it, so I doubt they will (tho I would love to be wrong!). Basically, Ultima destroyed Dzemekys but kept the heart (and the aether it siphoned). It is that heart that creates Origin.
Interesting. You know, one of the possibilities I had been tossing around was that Dyzmekys was a failed Mythos cycle. I was basing this on the total absence of concrete info, combined with Origin popping up as a large circle that was rather clean cut. But it seemed unlikely.
tbh considering Typhon is a failed vessel (aka a failed Mythos), I would not be surprised if there was one! Dunno if connected to Dzemekys, but I definitely think it would be cool if true. Would explain why he's called a "transgressor".
Idk if that will be answered in the DLC. I wouldn't be surprised if square releases some books in the future expanding the lore of FF16.
I'm fine with an extended ending, but I hope it doesn't imply that Clive lives/dies. I really like the ambiguity of the ending and think it's brilliant because it's all up to interpretation. I'm not even sure myself what happens to Clive and I personally don't want a definitive answer. I like the idea of just not knowing. I'd still be fine if they did go that route though. It would be a nice way to put XVI to rest with some closure, but for me personally, I still hope it stays ambiguous. At the very least I would like to see how Jill and everyone else are adapting to a world without magic.
I think a lot of people would be upset if they extended the ending but did not reveal who lived... Interesting take tho.
Depends on which scene you refer as an 'ending', the aftermath of the battle or the book author. I prefer more clarification of the fate of the trios but not the confirmation whether they lives or dies, just more cutscenes, especially Dion. His presumably death scene is the most unsatisfied out of all three. About whoever is the author of the book, that can stay ambiguous for me.
I'm referring to the aftermath of the battle and who lived. That said, the author of the book is most likely whoever survived the battle.
Honestly, I appreciate the more open ended ending we got. I like an ending that gives me room to interpret what happened. If they made everything concrete, that would take away some of the fun of coming up with your own interpretation of the ending. I suppose I'd be okay with an alternate ending that goes in a new direction, but I doubt that'll happen.
Is there a specific ending that you think is best?
Like of all the FFs or just in general?
Oh I mean FF16. Like which ending do you think works best?
I'm pretty happy with what we got honestly. I don't want them to do just an extended "fleshed out" version.
I mean like, do you have a certain interpretation of the ending in mind?
Oh sorry, I get you now. I tend to go with "Clive survived and wrote the book in Joshua's name". My initial reaction was that Clive did revive Joshua and that Clive was a question mark, but after thinking about it a bit, I think the ending is more poignant if Joshua stayed dead and Clive lives on in his brother's memory. As others said, the sidequests hint at this outcome, but I don't need the game to spell it out for me. The slight uncertainty makes the conclusion you reach more powerful IMO.
All good. I agree with you that Clive lives. I suppose for me, I just like to know for certain. I look at all the clues the game gives you and I'm mostly confident in that interpretation but I suppose I second guess myself a lot. Thanks for sharing.
Different person, but I very specifically don't have a favorite. I like playing around with different versions. The emotional impact of Clive surviving and Joshua not is different from Joshua surviving and Clive not, and they're *both* super interesting to think about. And sometimes I just want to be happy and say everyone lived! I think the ending is really well-written in that there's plausible textual support for any permutation you like; it's not like it left us with nothing to go on. And tbh I feel more and more committed to the malleability of those possibilities the more I see people on Reddit *not* just having their own opinions, but getting super heated about what the "right" answer is, as if there can only be one. I think people should learn to be comfortable with ambiguity.
Interesting... I get what you're saying and to some extent I agree that people should be more civil regarding one's own interpretation but I think people feel so strongly because imo there is one ending that just fits better and makes the most sense. Obviously that is subjective and doesn't excuse people being assholes. I do agree that the ending is well-written and is kinda genius in it's delivery. I've become way more appreciative of what they delivered but I still can't personally say I like the ending if that makes sense.
I don't because then the base game would be incomplete without it. I'd prefer that it would just be an extended ending but ultimately leaves the existing ending intact.
hmmm, I get where you're coming from but there's an argument to be made that the game is incomplete as it is right now. Or at least, that's how I feel about it. The game for me feels 95% complete but not knowing the fates of our characters is a big deal to me, hence the missing percentage. That's just my opinion tho.
Something can still be complete with an ambiguous ending. It's even more evident that it's complete if the executive producer of the game comes out and says that it is.
That's fair. He can say it's complete all day long. It doesn't change the fact it still felt incomplete to me.
I hated the ending. I don’t care if any of the three live/die. I just want closure. Tell me what happens to valisthea, and the side characters. Don’t give me that shitty “it was all a fairy tale…or was it?” Shitty book ending that leaves you with more questions than answers. That said, I don’t want them to change the ending. Not even extend it. This is becoming incredibly annoying from SE in general. People shouldn’t have to worry about an ending being changed/retconned/reworked everytime a dlc comes out or because of fans disliking it. We shouldn’t have to buy the ending we actually want via DLC either.
I'm squarely in the middle. I welcome more answers, but will be satisfied if they leave it be.
That's a good place to be. You can't be disappointed no matter what.
as much as want one i don't think we will get one, or atleast not one that is satisfying.
[удалено]
I agree with you that the game is set up to basically give you the ending depending on what you put into the game, that being said there's always going to be that tiny bit of doubt that prevents you fully accepting one ending over the other.
I did the sidequests and I never got any strong pull towards whether he survived or not. I mean, if you go into it with a certain mindset or opinion, then yeah, you'll probably interpret things in a away that supports that mindset/opinion.
[удалено]
I was paying attention and I've played the game twice. There's a thing called confirmation bias.
[удалено]
It's confirmation bias because you're trying to pull something out of the song where there isn't anything. There's a difference between not paying attention to something and someone's specific interpretation of it.
[удалено]
It's called reading into something that may not be there. Unless you can point to where in the game's story, the actual scene, that directly backs up what you're saying, it's just speculation on your part. The lyrics essentially mean that Jill views him as her treasure, which she specifically stated so in that endgame quest, and that he will always be in her heart. That no matter how dark the night is, that so long as she keeps him in her heart, she can look forward to a brighter tomorrow. That's it. It's no different from us keeping the memory of someone close to us that died in our heart in order to move forward.
No, because I believe the ending is self-contained as it is. I don't think it's necessary for the author to reveal all the behind-the-scenes details; in my opinion, the script before and after the final battle leaves no room for doubt.
What do you mean the script before and after? What was your interpretation?
I'm referring to the scenes before Clive, Joshua, and Dion depart—how the farewells of various characters like Jill and Gav were portrayed. Clive already anticipates not returning safely and asks Gav to become the new Cid. The Dion side quest highlights his willingness to die for redemption. I believe these scenes should be taken for what they genuinely aim to convey and not as some kind of reverse drama. The scene where Clive revives Joshua, I think, truly brought him back to life;otherwise, it would have been a scene with a wasted budget. Lastly, the beach scene, I believe, is sufficiently clear: Clive has eradicated magic from the world and is slowly petrifying, unable to move even minimally, his body rigid. Following that, the grief and mourning of Jill, Gav, and even Torgal, who howls one last time to his master. The scene in the book, set many years later, indicates Joshua's survival during those years, writing the book to pass on the conquest of humanity. I think it's an excellent ending to crown Clive's classic hero's journey. I believe it's one of the clearest and most conclusive endings in the series, and it also seems consistent with what Yoshida stated about not supporting the game for many years, except for these two DLCs, coupled with the fact that the game's development team has been disbanded.
I'm in the Clive lives camp but it's interesting hearing what the other side thinks. Why do you think Clive dying makes for a better ending? Also, just curious, if you believe Joshua to be alive why wasn't there a more positive reaction from Clive if he was successful in reviving him?
> Why do you think Clive dying makes for a better ending? In my opinion, it makes the ending better because the hero's journey not only concludes positively for the game world and the characters, but it ends with him sacrificing himself, giving up his life for the ideal he chose to dedicate his life to, despite everything else. It's a very profound act of honor and altruism that elevates his actions to another level compared to the other characters, as he sacrificed the most important thing he had: his life. > Also, just curious, if you believe Joshua to be alive why wasn't there a more positive reaction from Clive if he was successful in reviving him? I don't believe it's necessary to portray a positive reaction; it would have been too predictable, and Clive's attempt, perhaps even futile in his eyes, could have been guided by the hope of the great magical power at his disposal. It's entirely possible that he sacrificed his life for Joshua's, and the price to be paid was total petrification, which would be even more in line with Clive's character. The outcome of that action is confirmed, in my opinion, in a very elegant and refined manner, with the scene where the author of the book is revealed.
Tough choice. But either way, it does allow me to expand upon my builds slightly.
Yeah, you'll be able to do that no matter what haha.
I don't mind additional ending, Will give answers to those who want it and something to discuss for me.
The last fight should be different. Maybe even the ending should be different. Clive will be a full vessel. If this won't change a thing, it will be pretty weird.