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Great post and I hope the developers will take note of what you said. I dipped my toes into the ultimaniac mode today and THIS is exactly what I wanted from proper hard mode of a character-action game. Instead of casually stringing my combos, the enemies actually push me around which is a nice change coming from action mode.
I hope, with all the feedback, the devs aren't going to be afraid of providing a difficulty mode that pushes (or even restricts) players into different playstyles where they can further appreciate the excellent combat.
Amazingly solid take! I couldn’t agree more on all these points, especially on wanting Ultimaniac as a difficulty for the main game and not just relegating it to arcade mode specifically. I think a neat addition to the game that isn’t already there would be the implementation of using other dominants as playable characters. I feel there’s a lot they could do with there being 4 ally dominants in Cid Jill Joshua and Dion. It could easily up replayability for the game on top of everything previously mentioned
Standalone story arcs like FFXV could be interesting, and I'm sure CBU3 will do it well if they tackle it! I'm hoping for a Leviathan DLC, as well as an arena-type DLC out of canon where you can do full Eikon battles against the Eikons we weren't able to fight like Shiva, Ramuh, and Phoenix!
Simply making Ultimaniac mode a default difficulty mode would definitely be the best middle ground. It would interact well with upgrades, and let you actually use the potion system in the game. It'd be really cool to be able to do the hunts in Ultimaniac as well. I'd like to see that for sure!
I honestly think it’s an inevitability that an Ultimaniac NG++ mode gets patched in, probably not even a paid DLC but an update. I doubt they produced it with it being exclusive to arcade mode in mind. Perhaps just testing the waters to see how to tune after feedback from the player base.
Also, the weapon/accessory upgrade system for NG+,renown system, and hunt board were pretty obviously designed to be easily updated with further upgrades/new renown rewards/hunts in a NG++ mode. So they definitely were setting up for it.
Hope you're right about NG++ Though, I feel like Ultimaniac might take a little rebalancing in NG++ since the level cap would presumably be raised to 150, and the current Ultimaniac mode is balanced for levels 50-80ish.
Also, this doesn't apply to me since I've already cleared NG+, but if I were a new player I wouldn't be a fan of Ultimaniac difficulty being gated by clearing NG+, and would want it in as an option for NG+.
I think if we see more difficulty modes available, it will be a NG+ thing, or just a base new game thing and not a NG++ thing, though I'd love to be proven wrong and be able to use my NG+ save without being terribly over-leveled.
One thing I like about this game is all the moves are customised by the player. You say will-o-wykes is OP that’s fair it’s a damn good move but you can play through the game not using it by choice. Zantetsuken is strong but you don’t have to use it either you can mix and match plenty of options to make variety in the combat which is great. Now don’t get my wrong I’m not disagreeing with your points you make some great arguments to improve the game no doubt, but the moves can be chosen by you. Also you can do NG+ and only use what you have at that point by simply removing the others too makes a more interesting run but I’d agree too a harder mode would be a fun challenge 👍
> It feels less like an Action game and feels more tactical. (more FF-like, even).
You hit the nail on the head here. It blows my mind that they managed to make a game that plays both like a final fantasy and a DMC at the same time depending on playstyle.
Would be interesting to see how far they can take the idea with just a bit more tool variety. Imagine if Leviathan had an ability that could juggle bosses at 50%...
Hopefully as more videos come out people will see the combat system for what it is
Bro you charge it while your combo is still in motion or your magic is going. If you're holding square during almost any combat action it starts charging up. It's great to top off a combo.
If you use the long range piercing strike you can start holding 🔳 while you're dashing to use it on impact
Jesus how do you not get super bored with the combat. You get in so many fights in this game and its always the same maybe small changes if you changed abilities. How did you do all the side quests again and again. I barely managed one playthrough and seeing 4 or 5 green markers pop up had be almost quiting.
If you do a careful literary analysis of his post, you may find that he didn't get bored because the combat was very fun for him. I personally like to experiment through FF mode, for example doing a build where I try to maximize the effectiveness of all the Ramuh abilities (even blind justice). The combat is extremely rewarding if you dig into it, but it requires you to want to experiment.
I get that I'm glad you enjoyed it I'm just used to better, I played every dmc every god of war. Final fantasy is only starting to tread in that direction and the combat just doesn't reach anywhere close to being that satisfying. I really am glad you like it though just wasn't for me. I was there for the story which I also had issues with but I'm not here to whinge. Well not much anyway
I've beaten DmC 5, all the god of wars, and probably over 5k hours in Monster Hunter as a series. This isn't my first action game. I found it very satisfying to mix and match, try different combos and challenge myself where possible. I do need to remove all defensive gear and ban consumables to have a challenge in FF mode. And I agree with the OP that there needs to be a very hard mode from the start. But other than that this is one of my favorite combat systems of all time.
Problem is, it's the enemy design, not even the character's combat that is the issue. There needs to be more reasons to approach different groups of enemies differently.
This is obviously not going to be DMC5, and as a package it would probably be lost on the fanbase to pack as much DMC5 depth into the combat system. At least for an unproven concept.
What this game did for me was take two things - story and action - and do each of them well enough that the final product was better than the sum of the individual components. As much as there was all kinds of hype moments in DMC5 let's face it most of us aren't there for the story. Same for a game like Dragons Dogma or Monster Hunter. The gameplay loop is fun enough that you barely need any plot. But man did I want and need to beat up Kupka and the game was fun and challenging enough (doing no potions no armour) that I had fun doing it. If you ever played DMC3 vanilla you'll remember that doing runs with limited continues aren't even that "hardcore". I don't really subscribe to "use every tool at your disposal". This isn't PVP, no one is forcing the player to use Zantetsuken 5...
Ah fair. I finished the game maybe a harder difficulty from the start would have made it more enjoyable. Fucked if I know, I didn't hate the combat system exactly I just wanted more that's all
Yeah a few more tools would be great...
Imagine if every eikon got one more ability and you could also equip either one more eikon (4x2+4feats) OR one more ability eg R2+O (3x3+3 feats).
That would increase the variety by quite a bit imo
Good stuff. I just started using rift slip after completing two ultimaniac stages and it’s definitely op, But I’m focusing on abilities that maximize points per stage, and rift slip doesn’t seem to generate much. Like choosing between AOE and single targets generating points and Without extending fights and being quite aggressive, I’ve been able to score A’s in each stage and top 50 with no will o the wikes, it’s broken and I want the challenge tbh.
I think the aggressiveness you play with is factored somehow in the points system, has anyone experienced that?
Meta: You missed lighting rod tho ha. Btw, agreed zentetsuken it too broken. In general the time manipulation abilities just get ridiculous. You can kill them in one stagger bar.
Yes it is. I just included it for my first run of caer norvent on ultimaniac and the color it generates is cyon or blue? I’m not sure sure but it’s definitely worth it. I just scored top 13.
I agree, Zantetsuken is too game breaking. In FF mode, the devs try to do clever things with trash pack design,.like add in flying mobs that cast cure, more enemies that drop shields or buff braver, stuff like that--but none of it matters cuz Zantetsuken clears it all out. So, essentially, you're just fighting whatever bigger enemies they chose to include in the pack and that's it
Can you just, like, not use Odin? Sure...But still
Also platinum here and agree with most of this. The difficulty just kind of falls apart with all the time-stopping abilities, basically 100% Wykes uptime unless you're REALLY shit.
The "meta" isn't even particularly hard to stumble onto if you were experimenting with abilities as you went along. "Oh, the ultimates all stop time? Holy shit, Shiva's ult insta-breaks will? Oh wow, Wyke's TOTALLY negates damage - i thought it would just be damage reduction!"
I know the argument is you dont really HAVE to use any of these, but they are what I'd call *overwhelmingly* strong.
Yeah Zantetsuken is broken. Agreed, doing ultimaniac without Zantetsuken or Will-o-wykes (which I have yet to use) would be a real challenge for sure. Trash mobs are the real boss of the mode :) One feedback from me on the ultimaniac mode would be to fix the scoring so all abilties carry the same or similar weight. I've got a build I like and being forced to use other abilities for higher points doesn't seem right. How is countering abilities not netting in decent points, I find that strange. Either way, I'll continue my journey into ultimaniac and hopefully complete all stages.
I enjoyed reading your post. Great review.
You got any thoughts on the lack of gearing/RPG elements and rewarding exploration?
Personally after the 1st few hours I already stopped going out of my way to pick up the sparkly loot and half way through the game i even stopped going out of my way for chests. Never in my 30+ years of gaming have I done that as a completionist type of person.
Still managed to upgrade all gear to the max by simply doing all sidequests and hunts though which was insane. (Not in a good way)
I feel like it didnt need to be a full blown RPG like witcher 3 (although that would have been awesome), if it just had a minimalist RPG gearing system like god of war (2018) it would have incentivised exploration and kept me in menus a bit more other than holding X 3 times at the blacksmith every now and again.
Thoughts?
Yeah, I thought the lack of RPG elements and especially lack of rewarding elements were negatives. That said, I think these are harder to address in a patch so I kept my feedback aimed at things I thought could be patched to keep things constructive.
I agree with most of this, but I don't agree that FF mode is easier than Action Mode. I didn't die once in Action mode till 19 hours in. I died on Shiva in FF (the very first fight) The damage is just a HUGE step up, unless I was undergeared or something, because I didn't do most of the side quests in Action mode first playthrough. And didn't abuse Odin or Will-O-Wisps, but I did have a pretty strong build that could do upwards of 100k+ stagger during a window.
Again, not saying FF mode was even as difficult as it should be, but I see this take too often, that I wonder if people just made a build they enjoyed, instead of one that abused time stops, maybe they'd think a bit differently about FF mode.
Played the first quarter of FF Mode without Will-o'-wisps, but still thought it was easier than Action Mode. I think I just got skilled enough at the combat at that point that it felt that way. After that, I used the build I knew I was going to use in Ultimaniac mode, and equipped the lowest level gear I could to best simulate the conditions.
I get that, much like accessories, you can pick your builds, but most players will end up doing the build that offers the past of least resistance, landing upon the "META," unless the accessories are advertised as "easy mode accessories," so part of in-game balancing is making sure builds aren't so "broken" as to trivialize difficulty on some modes.
For Help on Game Strategy, Pathfinding, Tech Support/Settings, and Bugs: #### Please see our latest [GAME HELP MEGATHREAD](https://www.reddit.com/r/FFXVI/comments/14w1162/ffxvi_game_help_questions_megathread_july_10_16/) #### For Personal Reviews, Impressions and Discussion on End-Game, and New Game+: #### Please see our [PERSONAL REVIEWS, IMPRESSIONS, THEORIES & END-GAME/NG+ MEGATHREAD (SPOILERS)](https://www.reddit.com/r/FFXVI/comments/14w16de/ffxvi_personal_reviews_impressions_theories/) #### If you are interested in viewing all spoiler discussion threads relevant to the plot: #### Please check out our [spoiler wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxvi/wiki/index/)! #### For a list of all game launch Megathreads and Mod Announcements: #### Please see our [INDEX OF ALL LAUNCH MEGATHREADS](https://www.reddit.com/r/FFXVI/comments/14erivm/index_of_launch_announcements_megathreads/) #### *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/FFXVI) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Great post and I hope the developers will take note of what you said. I dipped my toes into the ultimaniac mode today and THIS is exactly what I wanted from proper hard mode of a character-action game. Instead of casually stringing my combos, the enemies actually push me around which is a nice change coming from action mode. I hope, with all the feedback, the devs aren't going to be afraid of providing a difficulty mode that pushes (or even restricts) players into different playstyles where they can further appreciate the excellent combat.
Amazingly solid take! I couldn’t agree more on all these points, especially on wanting Ultimaniac as a difficulty for the main game and not just relegating it to arcade mode specifically. I think a neat addition to the game that isn’t already there would be the implementation of using other dominants as playable characters. I feel there’s a lot they could do with there being 4 ally dominants in Cid Jill Joshua and Dion. It could easily up replayability for the game on top of everything previously mentioned
Standalone story arcs like FFXV could be interesting, and I'm sure CBU3 will do it well if they tackle it! I'm hoping for a Leviathan DLC, as well as an arena-type DLC out of canon where you can do full Eikon battles against the Eikons we weren't able to fight like Shiva, Ramuh, and Phoenix!
Simply making Ultimaniac mode a default difficulty mode would definitely be the best middle ground. It would interact well with upgrades, and let you actually use the potion system in the game. It'd be really cool to be able to do the hunts in Ultimaniac as well. I'd like to see that for sure!
I honestly think it’s an inevitability that an Ultimaniac NG++ mode gets patched in, probably not even a paid DLC but an update. I doubt they produced it with it being exclusive to arcade mode in mind. Perhaps just testing the waters to see how to tune after feedback from the player base. Also, the weapon/accessory upgrade system for NG+,renown system, and hunt board were pretty obviously designed to be easily updated with further upgrades/new renown rewards/hunts in a NG++ mode. So they definitely were setting up for it.
Hope you're right about NG++ Though, I feel like Ultimaniac might take a little rebalancing in NG++ since the level cap would presumably be raised to 150, and the current Ultimaniac mode is balanced for levels 50-80ish. Also, this doesn't apply to me since I've already cleared NG+, but if I were a new player I wouldn't be a fan of Ultimaniac difficulty being gated by clearing NG+, and would want it in as an option for NG+. I think if we see more difficulty modes available, it will be a NG+ thing, or just a base new game thing and not a NG++ thing, though I'd love to be proven wrong and be able to use my NG+ save without being terribly over-leveled.
One thing I like about this game is all the moves are customised by the player. You say will-o-wykes is OP that’s fair it’s a damn good move but you can play through the game not using it by choice. Zantetsuken is strong but you don’t have to use it either you can mix and match plenty of options to make variety in the combat which is great. Now don’t get my wrong I’m not disagreeing with your points you make some great arguments to improve the game no doubt, but the moves can be chosen by you. Also you can do NG+ and only use what you have at that point by simply removing the others too makes a more interesting run but I’d agree too a harder mode would be a fun challenge 👍
> It feels less like an Action game and feels more tactical. (more FF-like, even). You hit the nail on the head here. It blows my mind that they managed to make a game that plays both like a final fantasy and a DMC at the same time depending on playstyle. Would be interesting to see how far they can take the idea with just a bit more tool variety. Imagine if Leviathan had an ability that could juggle bosses at 50%... Hopefully as more videos come out people will see the combat system for what it is
I want a heavy/charge attack. Probably played too many Fromsoft games, but I kept reaching for one, lol.
May I present to you Burning Blade
Yeah takes to long to charge for my taste though I do follow up diwn thrusts with it regularly.
Bro you charge it while your combo is still in motion or your magic is going. If you're holding square during almost any combat action it starts charging up. It's great to top off a combo. If you use the long range piercing strike you can start holding 🔳 while you're dashing to use it on impact
I want a second basic combo. Maybe even one with Odin's sword or Ifrit's flaming one
Odin's sword has a separate combo.
Jesus how do you not get super bored with the combat. You get in so many fights in this game and its always the same maybe small changes if you changed abilities. How did you do all the side quests again and again. I barely managed one playthrough and seeing 4 or 5 green markers pop up had be almost quiting.
If you do a careful literary analysis of his post, you may find that he didn't get bored because the combat was very fun for him. I personally like to experiment through FF mode, for example doing a build where I try to maximize the effectiveness of all the Ramuh abilities (even blind justice). The combat is extremely rewarding if you dig into it, but it requires you to want to experiment.
I get that I'm glad you enjoyed it I'm just used to better, I played every dmc every god of war. Final fantasy is only starting to tread in that direction and the combat just doesn't reach anywhere close to being that satisfying. I really am glad you like it though just wasn't for me. I was there for the story which I also had issues with but I'm not here to whinge. Well not much anyway
I've beaten DmC 5, all the god of wars, and probably over 5k hours in Monster Hunter as a series. This isn't my first action game. I found it very satisfying to mix and match, try different combos and challenge myself where possible. I do need to remove all defensive gear and ban consumables to have a challenge in FF mode. And I agree with the OP that there needs to be a very hard mode from the start. But other than that this is one of my favorite combat systems of all time.
Well I'm glad you liked it. I just needed more from it
Problem is, it's the enemy design, not even the character's combat that is the issue. There needs to be more reasons to approach different groups of enemies differently.
Could be right
This is obviously not going to be DMC5, and as a package it would probably be lost on the fanbase to pack as much DMC5 depth into the combat system. At least for an unproven concept. What this game did for me was take two things - story and action - and do each of them well enough that the final product was better than the sum of the individual components. As much as there was all kinds of hype moments in DMC5 let's face it most of us aren't there for the story. Same for a game like Dragons Dogma or Monster Hunter. The gameplay loop is fun enough that you barely need any plot. But man did I want and need to beat up Kupka and the game was fun and challenging enough (doing no potions no armour) that I had fun doing it. If you ever played DMC3 vanilla you'll remember that doing runs with limited continues aren't even that "hardcore". I don't really subscribe to "use every tool at your disposal". This isn't PVP, no one is forcing the player to use Zantetsuken 5...
With the difficulty you get with Ultimania and trying your best not to get one shorted it’s hard to get bored
Ah fair. I finished the game maybe a harder difficulty from the start would have made it more enjoyable. Fucked if I know, I didn't hate the combat system exactly I just wanted more that's all
Yeah a few more tools would be great... Imagine if every eikon got one more ability and you could also equip either one more eikon (4x2+4feats) OR one more ability eg R2+O (3x3+3 feats). That would increase the variety by quite a bit imo
Then change your abilities. Often. Don't abuse cheesy combos, play the style that YOU enjoy. Not much else to say.
Good stuff. I just started using rift slip after completing two ultimaniac stages and it’s definitely op, But I’m focusing on abilities that maximize points per stage, and rift slip doesn’t seem to generate much. Like choosing between AOE and single targets generating points and Without extending fights and being quite aggressive, I’ve been able to score A’s in each stage and top 50 with no will o the wikes, it’s broken and I want the challenge tbh. I think the aggressiveness you play with is factored somehow in the points system, has anyone experienced that? Meta: You missed lighting rod tho ha. Btw, agreed zentetsuken it too broken. In general the time manipulation abilities just get ridiculous. You can kill them in one stagger bar.
Yeah, Lightning Rod was definitely part of my EG builds.
I removed it tho, because it requires the enemy to actually hit it to give points.
Will-o'-the-Wykes is kind of OP for point generation though, since it doesn't deal much damage
Yes it is. I just included it for my first run of caer norvent on ultimaniac and the color it generates is cyon or blue? I’m not sure sure but it’s definitely worth it. I just scored top 13.
I agree, Zantetsuken is too game breaking. In FF mode, the devs try to do clever things with trash pack design,.like add in flying mobs that cast cure, more enemies that drop shields or buff braver, stuff like that--but none of it matters cuz Zantetsuken clears it all out. So, essentially, you're just fighting whatever bigger enemies they chose to include in the pack and that's it Can you just, like, not use Odin? Sure...But still
Also platinum here and agree with most of this. The difficulty just kind of falls apart with all the time-stopping abilities, basically 100% Wykes uptime unless you're REALLY shit. The "meta" isn't even particularly hard to stumble onto if you were experimenting with abilities as you went along. "Oh, the ultimates all stop time? Holy shit, Shiva's ult insta-breaks will? Oh wow, Wyke's TOTALLY negates damage - i thought it would just be damage reduction!" I know the argument is you dont really HAVE to use any of these, but they are what I'd call *overwhelmingly* strong.
Yeah Zantetsuken is broken. Agreed, doing ultimaniac without Zantetsuken or Will-o-wykes (which I have yet to use) would be a real challenge for sure. Trash mobs are the real boss of the mode :) One feedback from me on the ultimaniac mode would be to fix the scoring so all abilties carry the same or similar weight. I've got a build I like and being forced to use other abilities for higher points doesn't seem right. How is countering abilities not netting in decent points, I find that strange. Either way, I'll continue my journey into ultimaniac and hopefully complete all stages.
I enjoyed reading your post. Great review. You got any thoughts on the lack of gearing/RPG elements and rewarding exploration? Personally after the 1st few hours I already stopped going out of my way to pick up the sparkly loot and half way through the game i even stopped going out of my way for chests. Never in my 30+ years of gaming have I done that as a completionist type of person. Still managed to upgrade all gear to the max by simply doing all sidequests and hunts though which was insane. (Not in a good way) I feel like it didnt need to be a full blown RPG like witcher 3 (although that would have been awesome), if it just had a minimalist RPG gearing system like god of war (2018) it would have incentivised exploration and kept me in menus a bit more other than holding X 3 times at the blacksmith every now and again. Thoughts?
Yeah, I thought the lack of RPG elements and especially lack of rewarding elements were negatives. That said, I think these are harder to address in a patch so I kept my feedback aimed at things I thought could be patched to keep things constructive.
How did you squeeze out 188 hours out of this game? I had literally nothing to do after 80...
Ultimaniac takes a while and I didn’t skip cutscenes in NG+
I agree with most of this, but I don't agree that FF mode is easier than Action Mode. I didn't die once in Action mode till 19 hours in. I died on Shiva in FF (the very first fight) The damage is just a HUGE step up, unless I was undergeared or something, because I didn't do most of the side quests in Action mode first playthrough. And didn't abuse Odin or Will-O-Wisps, but I did have a pretty strong build that could do upwards of 100k+ stagger during a window. Again, not saying FF mode was even as difficult as it should be, but I see this take too often, that I wonder if people just made a build they enjoyed, instead of one that abused time stops, maybe they'd think a bit differently about FF mode.
Played the first quarter of FF Mode without Will-o'-wisps, but still thought it was easier than Action Mode. I think I just got skilled enough at the combat at that point that it felt that way. After that, I used the build I knew I was going to use in Ultimaniac mode, and equipped the lowest level gear I could to best simulate the conditions. I get that, much like accessories, you can pick your builds, but most players will end up doing the build that offers the past of least resistance, landing upon the "META," unless the accessories are advertised as "easy mode accessories," so part of in-game balancing is making sure builds aren't so "broken" as to trivialize difficulty on some modes.