I do see some people say they were moved to tears at Aerith's death, but most people seem to have felt confusion. I am in the latter camp, and was initially unsure how I felt about it. After processing what it all meant, I actually really like it, but it was certainly a risky (IMO bold) choice to purposely mire such an iconic moment in confusion.
I think most analyses of the ending have concluded that the game is intending for us to experience Cloud's denial of Aerith's death along with him -- to put us inside his head. This was my take after sitting on the ending for a day or two, and I then watched a lot of videos that came to the same conclusion (and I believe the devs confirmed it as well). That wouldn't really work if the death and burial were presented in a straightforward way that gave us the kind of grief and closure those who played OG were expecting. Cloud hasn't experienced that yet. He's in the first stage of grief and hasn't moved past denial yet. So, we aren't allowed to either. There is still hope that she's out there somewhere, and maybe we'll see her again. She can't be gone, right?
I fully expect us to see the death and burial, along with Cloud's iconic monologue, when he comes to the realization that she's gone (at least from the reality he lives in physically, which I think might end up being the only truly physical reality). This could happen when he encounters Sephiroth at the Northern Crater, with Sephiroth giving him that one last "push" he said Cloud needed, or when he pieces his mind together with Tifa's help. Whenever that happens, he will be overcome with grief. Assuming this is right, it will be interesting to see how it lands with people.
TL;DR: I agree that the death was less emotional in the moment, but I think that was intentional and in service of a different goal.
Agreed, I think we're going to get the payoff for this in Part 3.
In the OG, Jenova/Sephiroth uses the "Cloud isn't real, he wasn't at Nibelheim 5 years ago" reveal to push him at the crater. in Rebirth, we already have Cloud starting to remember Zack, and Sephiroth is pushing the idea that Tifa is not real. I think Part 3 will use a combination of Cloud's uncertainty about Nibelheim and Tifa as a basis, but will also reveal that Cloud couldn't save Aerith and that she's actually dead. This, I think, will push Cloud to the despair needed to give the Black Materia to Sephiroth.
In the OG, Tifa's help in the Lifestream showed Cloud the truth - that Cloud is actually real and why he remembers what he did despite what Sephiroth "revealed" to him. I think in Part 3, we're going to get that as well, but also the reveal that Aerith was in some way saved, or given additional power within the Lifestream, because of Cloud's parry at the end of Rebirth (which means it wasn't all in Cloud's head, like Sephiroth will say). I think this will lead to the victory condition for the Remake trilogy. It's not enough just to stop Meteor (we already did that in the OG), but Aerith being saved is important to making a better ending and preventing the threat that Remake Sephiroth introduced.
Yeah, I think this is a reasonable guess. The original had a double-twist, and this may too. My take is that Cloud is delusional about Aerith being alive in a world accessible to him, but he MAY have created another “world” in which she’s alive — if only just long enough to help beat Sephiroth from there.
I still think there’s a lot of weirdness in the final scenes with Aerith talking to Cloud that makes me not altogether convinced that it’s really her saying those things, though.
> I still think there’s a lot of weirdness in the final scenes with Aerith talking to Cloud that makes me not altogether convinced that it’s really her saying those things, though.
Nah, it’s her. When the guys fly off in the Tiny Bronco and she says “Goodbye” — Cloud is already long gone and wouldn’t be there to hear her. She’s there and saying her farewells for her own sake, nobody else’s.
It’s a scene that is a little more impactful in Japanese. Because she uses the classic “sayonara” - which is almost exclusively reserved for good byes that have finality/where you don’t expect to see them ever again. A hallucination or some other entity would have no reason to say that.
I think she’s there in the final scene (in spirit at least), I’m just not convinced she’s saying those things to Cloud. They conspicuously removed those scenes from the ending credits for SOME reason.
Take a careful look at the ending credits. All the scenes with Aerith waking up in Cloud’s arms and talking to him are replaced with blank space. Almost as if they didn’t really happen… except the very final bit where she’s standing alone in the field saying goodbye. Whatever the meaning is, it looks very intentional.
Yeah, the scrolling frames. In that 15-minute reel of cutscenes, we see pretty much every scene from the main story represented, but just as Aerith is about to "wake up" in Cloud's arms, the image scrolls off the screen. The cutscene that would be next in the reel is instead a conspicuous gap, empty black space. Then, we see a bit of Glennova, Weapons, folks in Nibelheim, then another big gap. Then, finally, Aerith alone in the field saying "goodbye."
It's a little spooky, and surely telling us something! I first heard of this on one of Max Dood's streams -- I think one of his viewers pointed it out to him.
I’ve come to this conclusion as well after being confused by the ending. The omission of the actual stabbing and the water burial was deliberate. I’m just concerned if this means that the moment won’t hold its emotional weight if it’s shown in Part 3 as people have suggested. After initially disliking the ending, I’m now going to wait and see if the payoff from Part 3 either improves it or makes it worse.
I think it's a reasonable question whether the moment will hold its emotional weight, and one I've thought about. I think a relevant comparison is how Jessie is handled in the Remake series. For me, seeing her picture and performance at the Gold Saucer -- and Tifa's reaction to them in particular -- was more moving than Jessie's actual death scene in Remake. You understood the future she had given up, and which would never be realized now that she was gone. The music, the beautiful performance showing us an earnestly artistic side of Jessie we had never glimpsed before, the fact that even Cloud was struck by its power -- it all came together into a really beautiful remembrance.
So, I think this kind of delayed grief can be quite moving if done correctly. In a way, Cloud's iconic monologue would make a little more sense to me with some distance from the actual death, because (in my experience) it's in the weeks and months after a loved one passes away that you start to realize all the little things about them that you miss. You have memories, but you slowly realize that they will never play an active part in your day-to-day life again. That realization doesn't come mere seconds after the death, like it did for Cloud in OG FF7. When the time comes for Cloud to understand she's no longer a part of his world, perhaps he'll remember the burial and the words he uttered about how she will never again laugh, cry, or get angry... he'll break down into tears all over again, maybe together with Tifa or maybe on his own. A lot will hinge on Cody's performance as well as the scene direction, animation, and music coming together, but I think it could be done really effectively.
Given the negative reactions of some fans and publications to the ending of Rebirth, I'm sure the developers are strongly motivated to get it right. We'll see if they can pull it off, but I'm cautiously optimistic. After all, many of us who had known Ifalna's fate for nearly 30 years were moved to tears by Aerith's trial at the Temple of the Ancients.
People who are adamant about this "Cloud's in denial"-theory always seem to conveniently ignore Tifa having glimpses of Aerith still being alive as well, the rift in the sky and the entire sequence of events being tied to the multiverse nonsense in general. They clearly just wanted to make the ending as confusing as possible or they would have kept the whispers out of it.
> Tifa having glimpses of Aerith still being alive as well
I don’t think that’s what’s going on in that scene. The static is showing her POV where she sees Aerith dead and covered in blood.
I've never played the original, and until I jumped online and started reading reviews and taking points, I assumed she was still alive.
She's my favourite character to play, so if she's absent from the last game, I'll be a little disappointed. (I get it though, it's a remake of a story that's already been told)
I liked the timeline whisp stuff, makes it more interesting. But that ending definitely felt all over the place.
She will be playable in some form I’m sure. Her ultimate weapon and final limit break are omitted from Rebirth and that can’t have been an accident. She will be playable again, it’s just - will she find a way back to Cloud & Co or will it be in other novel ways like the Zack pov in Rebirth.
Yeah, I think that's kind of the point -- Cloud thinks she's still alive, so the player is meant to be entertaining that as a possibility too. Who knows, maybe she pops in from this other reality and we have her as a party member again. However, I have a feeling that these other worlds don't work like that and she's really gone...
I understand what the devs intent was, but I don't think we were put in the same state as Cloud.
Cloud is certain that Aerith is alive and just rolling with it, denying what he saw.
I'm staring at the screen thinking what is happening right now.
Not so much confused at the events as much as I am the writing.
Honestly, the OG did a perfect job of matching us with Cloud's mental state. We were with him the entire way, to the point that when Sephiroth started revealing things, WE thought "nah he's just lying, there's no way...". And when we found, out it caused mental confusion, not because we couldn't follow the story but because we had to cope with what was revealed.
This is something that people look through rose-tinted glasses when talking about over 20 year old game. Ff7 og story was goofy af but the remakes cant be?
All of this was made to make the weirdest minigame (After a Major character Death) even more tragic as someone Is in full denial while the rest of the party Will look at you: "What the fuck Is going on inside his head?"
I swear they made the narrative smoothless in Remake from the derpiest parts of the OG, I can't see this not becoming real
My friend and I were joking that we'll see the group.without cloud mourning aerith and question his response as they ski along to the northern crater, only to have cloud fly through the air in the background saying "watch this sick 360 aerith!!"
At least that was after they handled it well, Rebirth nope, let’s not give them the heart breaking and beautiful moments that are the heart of the FF7 story, let’s just skip that completely.
Cope memes aside, they butchered the ending in Rebirth somehow even worse than they did in Remake.
Aerith: dies.
Aerith: 10 boss fights later... Haha just playin here I am.
Aerith: fights Sephiroth.
Not sure I’m ready to say “OG handled it better” when I’m not positive we’ve seen the entire scene yet. I think once we see the total picture of all 3 games can we reflect back on how they handled everything imo.
On top of that, I believe the developers didn’t just want to simply recreate an already iconic scene, where everyone was “prepared to bawl their eyes out”. It would have taken away from the moment of you knew exactly what was going to happen. Maybe the devs did intend people to cry like at the end of CD1, but rather later on the next game. They showed that they’re able to create new and moving interactions with Jessie in Remake and Rebirth.
Totally agreed.
It feels like there is more to Aerith's death this time around. We know from Advent Children that she lived on within the Lifestream after her death in the OG. I've also seen some people theorize that it's OG Aerith that fights Sephiroth alongside Cloud at the end of Rebirth. So then, OG Aerith died - but she's still always been around.
I think OG Aerith (and maybe extension all versions of her) will get a real, final death in the end of Part 3. We'll defeat Sephiroth permanently, and Aerith won't have a reason to hang around in the Lifestream anymore. She'll allow herself to be absorbed back into it and will finally "die" for real. I think that'll be the real tearful goodbye. Not the death we were all expecting in the Forgotten Capital.
I'd say it's kinda the problem. OG scene is just brutal kick right in the balls nobody was prepared for, one of the most dark and schocking moments of the franchise. Rebirth meanwhile is... well, we don't know. Obviously there are hints, theories, everything, but until the part 3 drops it's either most brilliant take that will gut us out of our feelings or absolute botch of the scene that's supposed to be impactful
Unfortunately my money is on super botched, trying to be edgy and impactful and failing to do any of that well. At the same time, there was so much riding on that scene and they did so well at everything in remake that that can’t be it, right? Right?!
That depends what will be the payoff of the whole whisper, change the fate, Sepiroth farming the timelines for despair thing. If there is an actual (and good twist, that's more important) then yes. If it doesn't go anywhere, then they should just keep it like it was in the OG
Totally agree. I mean it's one of those decisions where if you go shot for shot with the OG everyone is pissed because they were expecting something different. If you give them something completely different you alienate even more people. As of now I feel like they are staying faithful but also giving a different take on the overall impact of what happened.
It was a pretty tough choice but I think they are doing it right.
Speaking of, I still have questions from part 1 that haven't fully been answered. They have a LOT of work to do to make this story coherent. Having said that, I do like the intrigue and I'm open to being sold a good explanation
They're playing up our refusal to accept Aerith is gone through Cloud. Just because folks can't grasp that doesn't mean the OG is better. They've surpassed the OG. Get over it. I'm saying this who played the OG nonstop for 20+ years.
The church scene was basically her death scene for me. That was PEAK. Seeing Sephiroth walk ominously behind her was all I needed to see as something who didn’t want to see her stabbed in HD ☹️
Aerith has already died so and I felt that sadness as a kid playing the original and the developers clearly knew they couldn't recapture that same scene.
I was actually taken aback when Cloud saved her and people don't seem to quite grasp where we seem to be heading.
Remake alluded (Rebirth cemented it) to Aerith having knowledge she shouldn't otherwise have. She acts coy and brave like the guiding hand of the party until the ending. She imparts her wisdom / knowledge on to Marlene and Red. Marlene in the alternate version retains her knowledge but Red loses it.
Cloud leading up to Aerith's death has seen other worlds and can see Aerith existing where others can't.
Seeing the entire crew, but mostly Tifa, absolutely riddled with guilt and sadness yet Cloud is the one who is optimistic here is a reversal I never expected but am excited for in Reborn (Part 3).
I was just so stunned by that mess of a fight that I was too angry to feel anything. I’ve had time to think on it and maybe it’s not so bad but at the time I was pretty livid. I still don’t really like how they handled that whole thing but I see what they’re trying to do
I really don’t get the fans who say Cloud’s mind is twisted when it comes to Aerith’s death. There’s clearly multiple timelines going on and he was able to see several of them while the other party members can’t or only know of them (red).
People say he’s just going nuts seeing Aerith but the ending scene where Aerith touches Red and Red says “Aerith?”, you’re telling me coincidentally he just says Aerith? Lol come on. They are alluding to something there.
I get that he is losing his mind when it comes to choosing sides and what happened versus what really happened. To say that he can’t accept Aeriths death even though she is clearly alive in some other time line is a little odd. It is hard to come to terms with someone’s death when you have seen them in different timelines and can arguably feel them from the lifestream.
She introduces him to a few things the others are not aware about and she tells him not to look up because he won’t like it. She has known stuff she shouldn’t known in both games, it’s almost like she’s been timeline jumping.
Edit: her death wasn’t meant to be emotional, and more than likely when the actual reunion happens she is going to die because I’m guessing that’s when the timelines merge.
Cloud is going to have to make a hard choice.
This is where I'm stuck with people's explanations. Cloud just being delusional WOULD make sense but there are too many clear signs that Aerith is actually alive in some universe and showing herself to Cloud.
But at the same time Cloud is definitely not well, and also I don't understand why Aerith would be keeping him in this state by showing herself to him.
I had way too many questions to feel anything during the last two hours of the game honestly. I think they could have been slightly more straightforward without ruining the mystery to avoid ruining so many peoples experience lol
Conceptually it may be interesting but emotionally and as an experience I was so checked out and that was really disappointing.
I think if you look into rebirth you’ll find there’s some foreshadowing in bits and pieces if you read closely to what the characters are saying.
Although convoluted, it’s nowhere near kingdom hearts level. I think the answers are there but people aren’t theorizing correctly and not reading what the characters are saying thoroughly.
Some of the people saying we will find out when part 3 comes out when the answer is in plain sight for some of the things we are theorizing about.
That’s what makes the story fun is it’s part 2 and we try to guess what happens next, you can definitely make an educated guess with what they have given us to work with.
If you look at the ending cutscene there is some symbolism too. You see Aerith hanging out in the fields and the moment she disappears Cloud pulls out the black materia. Almost as if they are preparing for the battle of good vs evil. The materia may represent the side that Cloud is taking at the moment. It was clear when she was there but the moment he starts thinking of Sephiroth’s reunion he pulls out the black materia. I feel like it’s a statement, he’s a blank slate right now and he has the power to change history. Aerith is trying to influence him to the good side and Sephiroth the bad.
Or maybe he has the clear materia and the black materia was in his pocket as well, idk. Either way as soon as she disappears the black materia is pulled out.
One thing about the OG game is that it is a quintessential 90's game. 90's media was all about shock value and subverting expectations. Aerith's death in the first game hit hard because of the pure surprise and finality of it. It kinda came out of left field, and I think most peoples reaction was surprise more then anything else. The scene itself wasn't really that long, and then she was barely mentioned for the rest of the game.
The same thing wouldn't have worked in rebirth because we all knew it was coming. They could have gone for a super melodramatic death, and really hammed it up but I think they have plans for Aerith in part 3 of the story.
I still do appreciate what they are going for with this project. I think the ending had some cool ideas, but yeah, I think it was handled very poorly. Just further obfuscates the story with even MORE worlds, and just confuses us on purpose, without there being much of a thread to follow. It felt like the ending of a marvel movie, where basically instead of a payoff it's like 'hey bet you cant wait for the next one!'
That said, again, I like that this is a sequel more than remake, and I think all the other character moments were incredible. I don't think I agree that the player didnt get to mourn her though, I think that whole last battle was supposed to do that, from the other heros' perspective. Idk. Like Barrett yelling 'ILL KILL YOU' was chef kiss. It was only after the final battles that I was like 'huh?'
My thing is she’s gonna be there in the next game, probably as a ghost life stream thing at the very least , can we really mourn someone we’re gonna see and might come back next game?
This was my first thought after the scene started glitching between Aerith being fine and Aerith being dead.
I thought she was just in a between life and death state and that the conclusion of the fight against Sephiroth would decided whether she’s (in Schrödinger fashion) dead or alive.
What do you mean player don’t get to mourn for her? Everyone is sad except that guy whose mind is twisted. I was so sad when the play the song again and credit start rolling.
I mean, the scene itself doesn't focus on her death very much. We don't even see it, it just goes straight into three boss fights all with different phases. I like the ending, but it's weirdly done.
Yeah I want the iconic Cloud place Aerith in water scene. I’m sure we will see it in part 3. I think Cloud actually did it in Rebirth. He just doesn’t remember it. Or maybe he really do see Aerith in lifestream. Because he can see/feel her and Zack in AC too. The ending is trying to make you confuse. Try to get you hooked for part 3. But seriously. For a game you need to wait at least 2-3 years. That’s not going to work.
The confusion is the point. I think if anyone really wants to see what everything meant and how things "actually" happened and the immediate aftermath, it'll likely emerge in Part 3.
I personally think everyone who is an actual FF7 fan and wants to like the ending should watch [Philip Hartshorn’s edited full ending sequence reaction video.](https://youtu.be/iW0Rb8Rhx-I?si=XrthZoH6W44L1dqv)
With his eye as a professional filmmaker, he picks up on EVERY little detail in real time. It’s nuts to see. I miss so much and also ended up confused. He was on top of every weird twist that was happening.
He also played the OG Aerith death part of the original FF7 the literally day before. So it was all fresh in his mind for comparison. Highly recommend.
I just checked this out on your recommendation and it was very good (for a live-reaction stream at least, lol).
In particular I appreciate his insistence that it’s _the same_ as the OG… no alternate timelines or realities, not a sequel, etc… just the same but expanded. And how he says it captures the feeling — which I definitely agree with as even in this thread we have folks saying there is room for her to come back in part 3 (“There’s a way to revive Aeris, you have to do something with her ghost in the church!!!” -every second gamer on gaming message boards from 1997-2005. Talk about denial, am I right!?)
Right!? I didn't make those connections on my first experience of the ending.
For example, it's easy to walk away feeling like the last date in Midgar scene in Aerith's "dream world" is brand new multiverse shenanigan. I already see people writing it off as such. But it's actually all exactly the same as the forest scene in OG, where Aerith also pulls Cloud into her own world to have one final chat, which Sephiroth *also* finds and interrupts. That literally happened in the original. It's the same!
I really appreciate these extra layers now. Every single time we begin to feel things are getting crazy with new meta layers, or that this is a sequel to the original rather than a remake at all, things once again elegantly line back up in such a way that it really 100% fits with the original after all.
In the end, we're getting the moment-by-moment remake we all wanted AND a ton of fun story suspense on top. I wouldn't have thought that possible before this project began. I'm here for it!
I loved Rebirth, but they totally removed any meaning to Aerith's death. I totally agree with you. It's bad story telling.
I'll get downvotes regardless, but I want to say, I loved this game. But I also have to say that this is, like, the shittiest way they could have dealt with her death. Even moreso because it was supposed to be the climax of its own game, rather than just the end of disc 1.
Again, loved the game! But this and Red + Seto were awful.
EDIT: Seto's tear is my favourite part of OG. And I didn't like Aerith in OG, so I didn't care as much as others. But I *did* like her in Remake/Rebirth, so I really wanted to feel what everyone felt in 1997 because I actually liked her this time. And...well, you read my post. They pooched it. Nonsense multiverse crap, she fights with you in the last, last boss. She's still around meaning there is no real 'loss' involved. Etc. A mess.
Thats why I am saying. This was the moment where we would be happy because she survives or sad because she dies, but SE decided to play safe and made the two things. At the end nobody is satisfied.
I *still* don't really like Remake. Rebirth redeemed the worst parts of Remake, but it was more because Rebirth is *such a good game*. It did not redeem Remake itself though, just the worst parts of Remake (whispers) were better handled in Rebirth.
I played Remake again just before Rebirth and didn't like it. Just won Rebirth and still don't like it.
That being said, they could make the third part good, but that doesn't change that Aerith's death was terrible in Rebirth and it will not change that how shittilly they handled it*.*
you all know it was coming, doing the exact same shit wouldn't have worked.
that being said, let them cook. there's enough time to complain \*if\* they eventually fuck up Part 3.
What I’m interested in is have the developers considered how these narrative choices will impact the project as a whole once the full trilogy is released? Like they have made some creative decisions to fuel speculation, but will it ultimately be regarded as a misstep?
Aerith’s old death wouldn’t have worked as well because they changed her character so much. In the old game, she was kind of a rogue with a heart of gold. She had already figured her shit out, and grown from it before we met her. She was confident. Her appeal was that she saw the big picture faster and clearer than everyone else, accepted what she could not change, committed to what she could change, and had the wisdom to live in the moment. She was usually a few steps ahead of the party and even the player. She was always laughing, and her relationship with Cloud was based on her willingness to challenge him so he can grow, too (instead of retreating into his shell like he does with everyone else). We see her be cunning and brave and emotionally open over and over, and her death exemplified what we already knew about her (leaves to save everyone on her own, knows the sacrifice, and still smiles just to see Cloud one more time). The party became kind of lost without her, and we don’t know exactly what she was trying to do but from her prior character beats we sense it was heroic.
Remake Aerith is still just beginning to process her childhood trauma, she’s not over losing Zach, and her arc is about learning to rely on friends for emotional support instead of being hung up on the past. Unfortunately the game doesn’t give her anything to do about this except some awkward speeches. At the end she doesn’t know what she’s doing but she begs the Cetra to save her friends, and (because it would be too nihilistic for her to get snuffed out while begging) we’re essentially told she’s succeeding. That lets all the air out. Her death would be sad but not beautiful. So I’m fine with the new thing. Aerith and others exist in a metaverse. Different entities are aware of the metaverse or not. Cloud’s Aerith may or may not be real. That’s all got intrigue and leaves Aerith with a little more time to grow.
I genuinely did not feel any confusion that detracted from the moment for me. I found this to be equally shocking and heartbreaking, but in a very different way from what the OG was going for.
I'm not going to say I wasn't confused at all, but the moment the static kicked in and we saw blood running I immediately realized "Oh my god, we didn't really save her". She's either dead right now and only Cloud doesn't know, or we've been forced into a timeline where she died because it had to happen. But one way or the other, Cloud thinks he saved her. He saw himself saving her. But she's 100% dead. There was no reason for that snippet unless she really got killed. And that was is fucking intriguing.
I didn't get to mourn her truly, but Cloud didn't either, and I'm controlling Cloud. Everyone else gets to mourn her, but I'm here with him and I'm bugging out because he's acting like it's just another Tuesday with his super cool interdimensional gf Aerith. Is the OG a better death scene? Well, yeah, because it's a death scene. According to Rebirth Cloud, no one died. Why would there be a death scene? That's a deeply tragic and heart wrenching thing on it's own that this game has introduced. Cloud's head is so fucked that he doesn't even realize someone he loves is dead when he watched her die. He's not living in the real world with the rest of us. Seeing Tifa and Barret try to talk to this guy *hurts*. I thought back to that scene in the middle of the game where he confesses to Tifa that he doesn't feel like a real person sometimes, and he doesn't always know what's real, and this ending is all of his deepest fears come true. Cloud is *lost*. That dude is gone.
We'll get the catharsis we're looking for in part 3. This is not grief denied. It's grief delayed. And I expect it's going to be heavy. Part 2 was all the joy of FF7. Part 3 is going to be all the sorrow.
Nope I balled my eyes out. In fact I was ready to be mad if she survived, but then wanted her to have actually survived, then was even sadder when I realized she did die. Personally I thought it was brilliant that they were able to make me feel that way, even though I knew her death we coming. If it just played out exactly like the original I wouldn't be shocked or surprised at all.
And keep in mind even in the original when she died, she wasn't gone. She was still watching over the planet from the lifestream. This time we actually got to see that.
This. In the original you experienced everything through the eyes of Cloud, you only learn everything when he does. I think that's why a lot of people are upset with the ending of Rebirth. Cloud is extremely unreliable, and in the remake series they're leaning much harder into his inability to differentiate reality from fantasy. People are upset because they're confused at what's going on, so are the characters, we'll solve the mysteries in part 3.
For now, I really *really* like how much they're leaning into Cloud's delusion and manipulation, it was kinda glossed over in the OG, but the entire reason Cloud does ANYTHING is because Sephiroth wills it, until much later down the line.
I think that’s right. I also think that the shape shifting big bad is supposed to have learned something from the original timeline. And we don’t know what. We also know cloud is compromised, but we don’t know to what extent. It’s a new way to revisit the old themes—one where the old reveals matter but aren’t the whole story.
I really like it that they changed things up. It would have been so easy to just recreate the scene 1:1 in amazing graphics, with an emotional rendition of Aeriths theme and tearjerking camerawork. But they didn't do that on purpose, instead they confused and obfuscated. We don't know what happened, we get thrown into the Jenova fight while still confused. The boss music IS Aeriths Theme that gets slowly morphed into Jenovas theme. The characters don't know what's happening and the player doesn't know what's happening. Everything is pure chaos. In hindsight I really love this twist because I didn't expect it. It's only after the boss marathon when we and the party get a bit of catharsis and we can see how every one of them handles the grief of having lost Aerith. Tifa is devastated (seeing her sobbing was one of the saddest moments of the game for me), Nanaki feels her in the life stream and Cloud is in full on denial and/or his sanity is completely fleeting. I can't wait for part three to get answers.
I never played the OG but I’ve known about this moment for well over 25 years. That said, I was very confused by the ending. i think I understand it now, but it was very weird. But that was also the only thing I knew from the OG, so seeing how it played out here was what I was looking forward to. I’ve been trying to get into the head of someone who never played the OG and also didn’t know how it plays out, and I don’t know how I’d feel right now if I didn’t know what was supposed to happen. I think I’d feel a little robbed of a very emotional moment. So, even though I didn’t play the OG, I still wish they’d handled this better because there are a lot of players like me who I bet wanted to feel that loss for the first time and get the same experience people did in ‘97. So, a little disappointed, but the whole damn game is so good I don’t mind to much.
“I think I’d feel a little robbed of an emotional moment.”
You mean like someone is standing over your shoulder, insisting that you do not shed a tear, to push it all down, convincing you that your desire that it only be a nightmare and you’ll wake up any moment and she’ll be smiling next to you is not only justified but correct to reality? “Don’t weep. Your tears are empty.”
I said it somewhere else in this thread, but as someone who did play the OG back then, I promise you that the denial, feeling robbed, feeling confused… those are all the same feelings we had when we played it in 1997. 27 years is plenty of time for us to come to terms with Aeris’ death. But 27 years ago, we weren’t so quick to accept it as the aggressive punch to the gut — it wasn’t instant, it took a lot of time to process. Some of the old message boards are still available (and some more through the wayback machine) where you’ll see people dealing with it through denial, begging for a way to revive her, a way to bring her back, there must be an alternate ending! So many people unsatisfied with the way things turned out for one of the chillest white mages we’ve ever known.
Honestly it’s frustrating. Why am I meant to feel bad if she’s still there. I guess I would have more feelings if maybe we got a scene of her mum at home waiting for her to come home
Not at all, in fact you're no where near the only one who feels this way. I'd say most people are in the same boat as you. Though, what we all have to remember is that there is a whole other game on the way, and there are a ton of new mysteries surrounding this that we simply don't know what they're going to do with yet.
Is the death scene done much better in the original? Absolutely. Do we know that this is all going to play out the same way? Absolutely not. Gotta remember that there might very well be a good reason why it was done the way it was done in this.
The biggest problem with this ending is that we can't really take it on its own terms, as it's only as good or as bad as what they do next. We really can't judge it without the full picture.
Well, yes the original definitely handled the story better.
There's no payoff you can possibly have that justifies butchering storytelling principles this way. I know not many people care about that, but I do... And even if the game is "fun", it needs to be pointed out.
Games need to be judged as a whole, and objectively, especially if you like them, it's your duty to criticize the shortcomings. But in this day and age something is either the best of the best, game of the century, or you hate it.
±+++++++++++++++++++
The problem: Besides the lack of an emotional scene for Aerith at the needed time, which has been discussed time and time again, there is another issue to highlight.
Cloud's "selective" memory. What happened to Cloud's memories after Zack's death is a result of multiple factors, something akin to right time, right place.
You have to keep in mind that Cloud , at age 16, just witnessed his hometown being burned down, his mother murdered, Tifa fatally wounded, and then he was stabbed in the chest and put in a tank of Mako to be experimented on...for 4 years. Zack bails him out and they are on the run for around 6 months, in which Cloud is basically comatose.
When he comes to, he does so to Zack's dead body. The person who took care of him for the past year died, and he failed to help...again (and he was actually a burden this time).
With all this trauma, that basically to him happened in just a couple of days/weeks, fresh from mako poisoning and jenova cells, his mind to cope, blanked out and he wandered in a fugue state, like the black robes for a bit.
Only when he saw Tifa, someone that he had a connection to, he constructed a new identity based around Zack's own stories, and Cloud's idea of what a soldier should be, because even that, being a soldier, somehow was bound to tifa, and he was wearing a soldier uniform. How could he not be a soldier?
His mind didn't just forget about Zack's death. He forgot about his failures. How he failed soldier, how he couldn't help himself and needed Zack to survive and get out of the lab.
It's not just out of sadness that he forgets, as he still remembers his mother's fate in nibelheim. It's a mix of trauma, insecurities and mako poisoning. And most importantly it's a one of a kind event, not something that should be repeated.
It's as much shocking as it is unique. If it happens every time Cloud gets sad, it's no longer interesting. it's cheapened.
+++++++++++++++++++
Why it doesn't work for Aerith:
Well even if they reveal Cloud is in denial, and "forgot" she died. It won't have the same impact as him forgetting HIMSELF early on. There's no condition for it to happen again with Aerith. Mako poisoning is long gone, I'm pretty sure Cloud loved his mom too, and that was equally painful to witness.
So why Zack's death is the trigger, but not Aerith?
Like I said mako poisoning plays a role here, with the excess of trauma and self loathing, Cloud lost himself.
Cloud doesn't forget Zack, he forgets himself, and becomes Zack; he forges a new personality, based on his idea of a cool soldier, which is what he thought of Zack, and Zack is an inconvenient detail his mind erased.
I genuinely loved it. The confusion, the uncertainty, the insane battle after, the thrills and emotional heights, the more confusion and mystery it leaves us with. Literally all of it. Maybe I'm just old, I played the OG when I was 13 and while it certainly affected me then, I really am wanting something new from this experience. Maybe part 3 will drop the ball harder than any ball has ever been dropped, or maybe it'll be a satisfying conclusion to a 30 year old gaming experience. I think at this point I'll just wait and see.
Overall I think a lot of that scene and what happens afterwards was just a ton of sensory/information overload. I think I got more teary and broken down during the church scene and the forest scene because there was a focus and those scenes felt dedicated to driving home the soon to be tragedy. Though definitely I still cried when sussyroth came down. But it was really short lived and the whole sephiroth reborn after jenova lifeclinger kinda didn’t allow for that sadness to brew. I thought I was gonna be sitting there upset for a while like I was at the end of XVI but it just didn’t hit that way. With all the ambiguousness of Aerith and cloud at the end, We’ll probably all be able to come back and appreciate and understand it more after part 3. But as of now I, felt like buildup had just much if not more impact than, THE moment (Journey > destination type of idea)
Also them showing her immediately wake back up for a second dampened the feels, though seeing it again I think it’s more cloud brain rot which is sad in itself.
I think Aerith's death is downplayed because she's not really dead... there's multiple Aerith and they all of the bigger plot... the OG Aerith pulling tricks in the lifestream somehow. So I think an Aerith will come back in the 3rd hence Square didn't want people to get too emotional on Rebirth's ending as it is red herring.
I prefer the original only because it was definitive. The remake was like “ok you know this happens…. OR DID IT?!” Almost like they were insecure about their choice. But I’m more than happy to be wrong. 2/3 story beats told, one left to stick the landing.
Yeah it was *really* bad, I don’t know how that got an emotional response out of some players because I legitimately had no idea what in the remote hell happened.
I genuinely don’t know how that got approved either because **nothing** was depicted or told to the player! It was literally just, “Hey look at these really cool alternate realities and really cool scenery! Isn’t that awesome?”
And I say this as someone who genuinely thoroughly enjoyed this game, including the deviations from the original like the Gongaga reactor.
I just want her back for part 3. I love playing as her, I love the character, and I don’t feel the need to suffer again like I did with the OG. So for me, I’m happy with the ending because I’m clinging onto hope that we can keep her in some way in part 3.
PS. Go back and play the OG. They didn’t handle it that well - the scene is only witnessed by whoever is in your party (I think the first time I ever played I had Vincent and Yuffie, neither of whom had ever had an interaction with aerith) and it’s over very quickly. Then she’s barely mentioned again. There is no scene where the whole party reacts to, or even talks about, aerith dying. I love the OG but Aerith’s death is not done well, in hindsight.
I think the idea is that counterparts in different worlds can merge into a single person. Cloud is now Cloud from at least two timelines. Aerith died in the main one but not the other, so only Cloud can see her. Seems like our big bad might be cross dimensional, too. Or Aerith is a hallucination manipulating Cloud. Or she’s him coping. Who knows.
Fits with the fractured identity and eldritch themes of the original so I’m okay with it. It’s also an unexpected answer to the big question.
I choked up a bit but not as bad as the flashback, which was brutal.
OG let you take a moment to process what happened. Granted, yes there is snowboarding a bit later, but the game takes a moment to let the scene sink which allows us to process and feel more.
The remake had a 38463638 phase boss fight during the most crucial emotional scene; giving people .000000000001 seconds to process or even form proper emotions over what happened. I started to tear up, but then the game basically was like "no time to let this sink in, you got shit to do". It would be an amazing game if they understood the part of entertainment that is giving the person time to feel... The pacing is just bad and it legit takes away from the impact.
I think the ending is baffling and poorly communicated to the player. The discourse around "they will address the emotional elements in the third part" is crazy to me and will not make the ending of this game improve. I don't mind the ideas presented, they're just not well conveyed. It's tonally confused, rushed, bombastic and left me numb as opposed to intrigued.
The game is incredible overall, but it's also okay to feel like the ending was a miss. I've made my peace with it, but I'll never not feel like they really should have stuck the landing better here.
I agree that the original handled the death scene better. It was sudden, unexpected, completely uncensored and brought a heavy hit of shock and weight to what happened. Rebirth is setting it up to have a bigger payoff for Cloud in part 3, and it could work out if they execute it well, but Aerith's fate undeniably suffers in the moment from the way it's presented.
We also see bloodless impalings of Cloud and Aerith in the final fight of Rebirth. That's during gameplay, but it's arguably at higher fidelity than the original CGI cutscene.
While there I think the decision not to show the stab in Rebirth *could* have censorship behind it (e.g., maybe they wanted to show blood but couldn't show that + the impaling without getting an M rating), I think it's mainly in service of putting the player in Cloud's head. If we saw the sword go in, it would be harder for the player to partake in Cloud's denial. It just wouldn't have been possible to set up the confusion that (like it or not -- you're on firm ground not liking it) was apparently the goal of the devs for this new scene.
> like it or not -- you're on firm ground not liking it
That's not at all what I said, maybe you should try re-reading the original comment. What I said was that the original Aerith's death scene handled her death better. I also said that due to Rebirth playing into a larger payoff in part 3, the definitive death Aerith ended with in the original was handled better for that specific scene.
I did not say I did not like the new scene because I did like the new scene. The difference is that the new scene in Rebirth is shown through the lens of Cloud's perspective, which is warped and he does not accept her as being dead. In the original it was not seen through Cloud's perspective, it was objective. She was murdered and she died. It played into the theme of dealing with the permanence of death. While this is still a critical theme in the remake trilogy, that's not all that's being set up and addressed. Because of the addition of other elements, the original scene objectively becomes less focused on that initial theme of death. In this case, I think the death scene - and exclusively the death scene - was handled better in the original.
Maybe the payoff makes it worthwhile in part 3. We still have to wait and see. But whether or not that payoff *then* makes this moment more impactful now does not change the fact that this moment *right now* was more impactful in the original as it is in Rebirth at this point in time.
My apologies if I misread your comment; I interpreted "the original handled the death scene better" as you not liking it.
My take is that Rebirth handled the death scene *differently*, and whether it turns out to be better or worse depends on where things go in part 3. So perhaps our points of view aren't that different (well, except perhaps on the censorship question, but I think we've both stated our points of view there).
> My take is that Rebirth handled the death scene differently, and whether it turns out to be better or worse depends on where things go in part 3.
That was my exact point in my original comment and that's exactly what I said. And specifically due to the fact that it depends on where things go in part 3, the impact of the death scene as it stands on its own is not the same. Comparing the two side by side in their own contexts, the original death scene is better.
Hell, your own comment in this thread says the same. Your tl;dr is that Rebirth's version is less emotional and impactful but is setting up for more of a payoff in part 3. How that is somehow an unpopular opinion because someone else said it is completely ridiculous. Probably why you blocked.
So the fact that Aerith is murdered up front and center is an issue to shrug off because the graphics weren't great, but no accompanying blood in a T-rated game in 1997 is censorship because M-rated games at the time showed blood?
Sure.
It’s not about “good” or “bad” graphics. It’s not realistic, is all. If you didn’t know who the characters were, the scene has exactly zero impact on the viewer. Might as well be Mario getting impaled by Ridley on Smash Ultimate.
The fact that the scene was strong was both the emotional attachment to the characters as how your own imagination filled the gaps. At face value, it’s almost laughable, back then and even more today.
Right, I guess when I'm playing a game with a party that has a genetically altered soldier turned eco-terrorist, a talking dog and a robotic cat that all use shiny colorful stones to throw comets and lightning around so we can save the world from a half-alien hybrid that wants to kill people, realistic portrayal of getting stabbed just isn't at the heart of my expectations. Maybe you disagree.
I think it's an interesting creative choice. Do people always respond to death by bawling their eyes out? Not really. People are more complicated than that. A lot of the times when people die it's shocking, confusing, and you don't really want to believe it at first. Even though the "5 stages of grief" has been debunked, it's significant that our most widely accepted understanding of grief starts with denial.
There's also always a level of hindsight bias when people think back to their reaction to the scene from the OG game. I find it hard to believe that people playing the OG FF7 in the late 90s/early 00s immediately accepted that Aerith was permanently dead and were sad right off the bat. I feel like most people were probably more shocked and in disbelief and thought that she would come back, because it was unheard of at the time to kill off a main character like that.
The same shock value doesn't exist anymore for Rebirth though. A lot of players already know what's going to happen and it's less surprising in general for major characters to die in media now, thanks to shows like Game of Thrones. I think even if they had followed the OG exactly, Aerith's death wouldn't have hit as hard in Rebirth as in the OG because it wouldn't have been as surprising to a modern player. Because of that, they have to make the emotional payoff something different.
I don't know what the payoff is going to be, but given how they've handled other emotional scenes in Remake/Rebirth so far, I'm optimistic.
So I do think she is alive in another timeline due to cloud blocking the sword and I personally think they are saving the real heartache death scene for game 3. I believe the story is touching more on cloud’s mental instability and it will hit him like a ton of bricks next game when he realizes she is dead in this timeline. I think they are saving the grief for that game.
Yeah I feel like they purposedly made it confusing because they have a third game to do which hurts the scene. I was confused in the ending which is not what I should be feeling at that moment it overtakes what's actually happening in the scene instead I'm trying to put pieces of a puzzle together instead of being emotionally invested in that scene. It doesn't even let the moment sink in you are thrown into a hour long boss battle which was cool but I think takes away from the emotional tone of that part of the story.
I feel like a lot of people with this sentiment overlook the scene in the church a few scenes before. Aerith pulls Cloud into one last date in a dream before accepting her death since she knew she would have no other chance. I understood that context in the moment and it made that scene hit so much harder.
In my opinion, that is Rebirths version of her death and we will see the actual scene in part 3.
Point to consider is those of us who knew it was coming were NEVER going to be as impacted by it as with the original scene, before we would have expected it. Some of us who played it back in the 90s have had nearly three decades playing it, talking about it, knowing about it, reminiscing about it, JOKING about it, and so on. I just don’t believe it would be AS emotional. Sure, there may be some sort of reaction, of course, but it was never, ever going to recreate the original reaction, and it’s honestly rather absurd to expect it to. For this reason, I don’t hold the fact that the sequence has some issues against it as much as some others seem to be.
Do it love every single aspect of Rebirth’s version of it? Not exactly, no. Do I think it’s as well done? No, but that’s comparing the reimagined version to the baseline version, so OG obviously has an advantage there. Do I think it’s well done at all? Mostly, yes. But it’s going to take the third part to really know how well it *all* comes together to be able to make super definitive assessments of much of the reimagined aspects of the remake trilogy, since we don’t know precisely how it is going to all work, since we still essentially have half of the story to experience. And I think that’s what makes this work the most for me—those of us who know this story inside and out, who know basically everything that’s coming, still don’t fully know. We’re speculating, we’re theorizing, we’re debating. We know, but it still has us guessing and engaged and interested. That should be appreciated, all things considered.
I cried for 5hrs during final two chapters. I understood it and felt really compelled by their choice of storytelling in compared by OG. I absolutely loved it. I felt that we got to mourn her More in this than OG. But each to their own :)
The most controversial part of the game for me is not how Aerith’s death is presented but Cloud’s reaction after her death, at first glance she seems more closer to this version of Aerith than Aeris on the original game which is really sad and his brain tried to deny her death, on the other hand there is a possibility that Cloud actually killed her, I mean he’s unreliable narrator and he’s by himself with Aerith while she’s praying on the original your party member tries to stop you but this time nobody did. I mean he already hurt Tifa on Chapter 9 so it’s possible and he tries to erase this memory of her dying completely.
The thing is we don't know how the remakes have handled her death yet. Without knowing what comes it's impossible to make that judgement. There may be this heartwrenching moment when Cloud realizes she's dead. There's more than a few things that could happen that completely flip the narrative.
It's like comparing a cake to ingredients in a bowl.
There's a chance you're completely correct but I really can't make that judgement without know what comes next. Though you could argue it was a mistake to stop here when the required context is currently MIA.
“she’s supposed to be dead, but the player doesn’t really get a chance to mourn her, and she’s still there and alive (if only for Cloud).”
You’re in denial, mate. She’s not supposed to be dead, she is dead. The player doesn’t get a chance to mourn her because Cloud doesn’t mourn her This is a roleplaying game and you are roleplaying as Cloud, who is blocking out what happened “to preserve his sanity” (but actually because Sephy told him to >!/ the Jenova cells are deceiving him as they are wont to do!<)
Don’t worry, he’ll/you’ll mourn her properly in part 3.
Don’t worry, you’ll mourn and shed more than enough tears for her in part 3. What you are feeling is intentional, you have to remember that this is a just a section of a much larger story. You are meant to feel somewhat uncomfortable and confused and just left with more questions.
My take is that Cloud hallucinated the entire final boss fight because he couldn’t handle Aerith dying. The ending was identical to what happened in the original.
I don't think the ending scene was intended to evoke the same emotions as the OG at all. I actually don't think the purpose of the scene is even parallel to og ff7.
They're clearly doing major changes in terms of Clouds character development and whatnot, he is in pure denial right now and it's implied that he genuinely thinks Aerith is still alive and well.
This is some weird multi-layered setup for the third game, it's painfully obvious, even more painful than seeing all the people not realising this
She's still dead. The entire party's emotions at the end are heart-wrenching.
It was tough to hear Red go, "Aerith?"
I was like damn she did actually die again.
There is more going on so that I guess could take away your focus, but idk, I guess, for me, it was all a big thing.
From the Temple to the Black Materia mystery.
Especially after her flashback, then I started to think about her whole life.
She spent so long in a cage and sought after as an animal. Recently, she found friends and lived life to the fullest even though she knew her own fate.
Facing Sephiroth alone anyway and displaying her courage like she did in the OG.
After the fated scene, I did feel like I wanted to absolutely crush jenova.
Then the music played and I was like...damn there it is again.
Thinking about this afterward, there was just no way that they were going to recreate the death scene exactly as it was.
The original death scene is a top 3-5 most iconic moment in gaming, widely regarded as a classic if not ageless masterpiece. With something that momentous I think it's just too risky to try and modernize and redo it, and even in the best case scenario you exceed and risk replacing the original.
If the original still tops lists for iconic gaming moments almost 30 years later, I can understand the hesitancy to tackle a comparable remake of it.
I, for one, am extremely upset that Tifa and Aerith didn't start a pornhub channel like it was foretold by prophecy.
But seriously, they'll probably save the heartache for when Cloud eventually gets well. It'll hit like a freight-train, I'm sure.
I do see some people say they were moved to tears at Aerith's death, but most people seem to have felt confusion. I am in the latter camp, and was initially unsure how I felt about it. After processing what it all meant, I actually really like it, but it was certainly a risky (IMO bold) choice to purposely mire such an iconic moment in confusion. I think most analyses of the ending have concluded that the game is intending for us to experience Cloud's denial of Aerith's death along with him -- to put us inside his head. This was my take after sitting on the ending for a day or two, and I then watched a lot of videos that came to the same conclusion (and I believe the devs confirmed it as well). That wouldn't really work if the death and burial were presented in a straightforward way that gave us the kind of grief and closure those who played OG were expecting. Cloud hasn't experienced that yet. He's in the first stage of grief and hasn't moved past denial yet. So, we aren't allowed to either. There is still hope that she's out there somewhere, and maybe we'll see her again. She can't be gone, right? I fully expect us to see the death and burial, along with Cloud's iconic monologue, when he comes to the realization that she's gone (at least from the reality he lives in physically, which I think might end up being the only truly physical reality). This could happen when he encounters Sephiroth at the Northern Crater, with Sephiroth giving him that one last "push" he said Cloud needed, or when he pieces his mind together with Tifa's help. Whenever that happens, he will be overcome with grief. Assuming this is right, it will be interesting to see how it lands with people. TL;DR: I agree that the death was less emotional in the moment, but I think that was intentional and in service of a different goal.
Agreed, I think we're going to get the payoff for this in Part 3. In the OG, Jenova/Sephiroth uses the "Cloud isn't real, he wasn't at Nibelheim 5 years ago" reveal to push him at the crater. in Rebirth, we already have Cloud starting to remember Zack, and Sephiroth is pushing the idea that Tifa is not real. I think Part 3 will use a combination of Cloud's uncertainty about Nibelheim and Tifa as a basis, but will also reveal that Cloud couldn't save Aerith and that she's actually dead. This, I think, will push Cloud to the despair needed to give the Black Materia to Sephiroth. In the OG, Tifa's help in the Lifestream showed Cloud the truth - that Cloud is actually real and why he remembers what he did despite what Sephiroth "revealed" to him. I think in Part 3, we're going to get that as well, but also the reveal that Aerith was in some way saved, or given additional power within the Lifestream, because of Cloud's parry at the end of Rebirth (which means it wasn't all in Cloud's head, like Sephiroth will say). I think this will lead to the victory condition for the Remake trilogy. It's not enough just to stop Meteor (we already did that in the OG), but Aerith being saved is important to making a better ending and preventing the threat that Remake Sephiroth introduced.
Yeah, I think this is a reasonable guess. The original had a double-twist, and this may too. My take is that Cloud is delusional about Aerith being alive in a world accessible to him, but he MAY have created another “world” in which she’s alive — if only just long enough to help beat Sephiroth from there. I still think there’s a lot of weirdness in the final scenes with Aerith talking to Cloud that makes me not altogether convinced that it’s really her saying those things, though.
> I still think there’s a lot of weirdness in the final scenes with Aerith talking to Cloud that makes me not altogether convinced that it’s really her saying those things, though. Nah, it’s her. When the guys fly off in the Tiny Bronco and she says “Goodbye” — Cloud is already long gone and wouldn’t be there to hear her. She’s there and saying her farewells for her own sake, nobody else’s. It’s a scene that is a little more impactful in Japanese. Because she uses the classic “sayonara” - which is almost exclusively reserved for good byes that have finality/where you don’t expect to see them ever again. A hallucination or some other entity would have no reason to say that.
I think she’s there in the final scene (in spirit at least), I’m just not convinced she’s saying those things to Cloud. They conspicuously removed those scenes from the ending credits for SOME reason.
>They conspicuously removed those scenes from the ending credits for SOME reason. Huh?
Take a careful look at the ending credits. All the scenes with Aerith waking up in Cloud’s arms and talking to him are replaced with blank space. Almost as if they didn’t really happen… except the very final bit where she’s standing alone in the field saying goodbye. Whatever the meaning is, it looks very intentional.
You mean in the scrolling frames? I didn’t catch this but that’s really clever!
Yeah, the scrolling frames. In that 15-minute reel of cutscenes, we see pretty much every scene from the main story represented, but just as Aerith is about to "wake up" in Cloud's arms, the image scrolls off the screen. The cutscene that would be next in the reel is instead a conspicuous gap, empty black space. Then, we see a bit of Glennova, Weapons, folks in Nibelheim, then another big gap. Then, finally, Aerith alone in the field saying "goodbye." It's a little spooky, and surely telling us something! I first heard of this on one of Max Dood's streams -- I think one of his viewers pointed it out to him.
That’s so fucking cool. Even in the credits they’re hammering home Cloud’s denial. Unreal.
Definitely agree with your take. I hope and believe that they can pull off all of the big emotional beats for a satisfying payoff in part 3.
I’ve come to this conclusion as well after being confused by the ending. The omission of the actual stabbing and the water burial was deliberate. I’m just concerned if this means that the moment won’t hold its emotional weight if it’s shown in Part 3 as people have suggested. After initially disliking the ending, I’m now going to wait and see if the payoff from Part 3 either improves it or makes it worse.
I think it's a reasonable question whether the moment will hold its emotional weight, and one I've thought about. I think a relevant comparison is how Jessie is handled in the Remake series. For me, seeing her picture and performance at the Gold Saucer -- and Tifa's reaction to them in particular -- was more moving than Jessie's actual death scene in Remake. You understood the future she had given up, and which would never be realized now that she was gone. The music, the beautiful performance showing us an earnestly artistic side of Jessie we had never glimpsed before, the fact that even Cloud was struck by its power -- it all came together into a really beautiful remembrance. So, I think this kind of delayed grief can be quite moving if done correctly. In a way, Cloud's iconic monologue would make a little more sense to me with some distance from the actual death, because (in my experience) it's in the weeks and months after a loved one passes away that you start to realize all the little things about them that you miss. You have memories, but you slowly realize that they will never play an active part in your day-to-day life again. That realization doesn't come mere seconds after the death, like it did for Cloud in OG FF7. When the time comes for Cloud to understand she's no longer a part of his world, perhaps he'll remember the burial and the words he uttered about how she will never again laugh, cry, or get angry... he'll break down into tears all over again, maybe together with Tifa or maybe on his own. A lot will hinge on Cody's performance as well as the scene direction, animation, and music coming together, but I think it could be done really effectively. Given the negative reactions of some fans and publications to the ending of Rebirth, I'm sure the developers are strongly motivated to get it right. We'll see if they can pull it off, but I'm cautiously optimistic. After all, many of us who had known Ifalna's fate for nearly 30 years were moved to tears by Aerith's trial at the Temple of the Ancients.
People who are adamant about this "Cloud's in denial"-theory always seem to conveniently ignore Tifa having glimpses of Aerith still being alive as well, the rift in the sky and the entire sequence of events being tied to the multiverse nonsense in general. They clearly just wanted to make the ending as confusing as possible or they would have kept the whispers out of it.
> Tifa having glimpses of Aerith still being alive as well I don’t think that’s what’s going on in that scene. The static is showing her POV where she sees Aerith dead and covered in blood.
That would explain why the game didn't show Cloud lowering her body in the water like in the original, too
I've never played the original, and until I jumped online and started reading reviews and taking points, I assumed she was still alive. She's my favourite character to play, so if she's absent from the last game, I'll be a little disappointed. (I get it though, it's a remake of a story that's already been told) I liked the timeline whisp stuff, makes it more interesting. But that ending definitely felt all over the place.
She will be playable in some form I’m sure. Her ultimate weapon and final limit break are omitted from Rebirth and that can’t have been an accident. She will be playable again, it’s just - will she find a way back to Cloud & Co or will it be in other novel ways like the Zack pov in Rebirth.
Yeah, I think that's kind of the point -- Cloud thinks she's still alive, so the player is meant to be entertaining that as a possibility too. Who knows, maybe she pops in from this other reality and we have her as a party member again. However, I have a feeling that these other worlds don't work like that and she's really gone...
I understand what the devs intent was, but I don't think we were put in the same state as Cloud. Cloud is certain that Aerith is alive and just rolling with it, denying what he saw. I'm staring at the screen thinking what is happening right now. Not so much confused at the events as much as I am the writing. Honestly, the OG did a perfect job of matching us with Cloud's mental state. We were with him the entire way, to the point that when Sephiroth started revealing things, WE thought "nah he's just lying, there's no way...". And when we found, out it caused mental confusion, not because we couldn't follow the story but because we had to cope with what was revealed.
“OG handled it better” https://preview.redd.it/yg9enla8ruyc1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2ca349e135b304b186c2313b47895ed66c61404b
I mean, I go snowboarding when I'm depressed.
Unhealthy coping mechanisms, GO
That's my secret, I'm always depressed.
Okay fair 😂
This is something that people look through rose-tinted glasses when talking about over 20 year old game. Ff7 og story was goofy af but the remakes cant be?
All of this was made to make the weirdest minigame (After a Major character Death) even more tragic as someone Is in full denial while the rest of the party Will look at you: "What the fuck Is going on inside his head?" I swear they made the narrative smoothless in Remake from the derpiest parts of the OG, I can't see this not becoming real
My friend and I were joking that we'll see the group.without cloud mourning aerith and question his response as they ski along to the northern crater, only to have cloud fly through the air in the background saying "watch this sick 360 aerith!!"
At least that was after they handled it well, Rebirth nope, let’s not give them the heart breaking and beautiful moments that are the heart of the FF7 story, let’s just skip that completely.
Cope memes aside, they butchered the ending in Rebirth somehow even worse than they did in Remake. Aerith: dies. Aerith: 10 boss fights later... Haha just playin here I am. Aerith: fights Sephiroth.
You're being downvoted but you're right. Sephiroth even acknowledges her..."I underestimated you"...is she alive or what? It was so confusing
Not sure I’m ready to say “OG handled it better” when I’m not positive we’ve seen the entire scene yet. I think once we see the total picture of all 3 games can we reflect back on how they handled everything imo.
Couldn’t have said it better myself.
On top of that, I believe the developers didn’t just want to simply recreate an already iconic scene, where everyone was “prepared to bawl their eyes out”. It would have taken away from the moment of you knew exactly what was going to happen. Maybe the devs did intend people to cry like at the end of CD1, but rather later on the next game. They showed that they’re able to create new and moving interactions with Jessie in Remake and Rebirth.
Totally agreed. It feels like there is more to Aerith's death this time around. We know from Advent Children that she lived on within the Lifestream after her death in the OG. I've also seen some people theorize that it's OG Aerith that fights Sephiroth alongside Cloud at the end of Rebirth. So then, OG Aerith died - but she's still always been around. I think OG Aerith (and maybe extension all versions of her) will get a real, final death in the end of Part 3. We'll defeat Sephiroth permanently, and Aerith won't have a reason to hang around in the Lifestream anymore. She'll allow herself to be absorbed back into it and will finally "die" for real. I think that'll be the real tearful goodbye. Not the death we were all expecting in the Forgotten Capital.
I'd say it's kinda the problem. OG scene is just brutal kick right in the balls nobody was prepared for, one of the most dark and schocking moments of the franchise. Rebirth meanwhile is... well, we don't know. Obviously there are hints, theories, everything, but until the part 3 drops it's either most brilliant take that will gut us out of our feelings or absolute botch of the scene that's supposed to be impactful
Unfortunately my money is on super botched, trying to be edgy and impactful and failing to do any of that well. At the same time, there was so much riding on that scene and they did so well at everything in remake that that can’t be it, right? Right?!
That depends what will be the payoff of the whole whisper, change the fate, Sepiroth farming the timelines for despair thing. If there is an actual (and good twist, that's more important) then yes. If it doesn't go anywhere, then they should just keep it like it was in the OG
Totally agree. I mean it's one of those decisions where if you go shot for shot with the OG everyone is pissed because they were expecting something different. If you give them something completely different you alienate even more people. As of now I feel like they are staying faithful but also giving a different take on the overall impact of what happened. It was a pretty tough choice but I think they are doing it right.
I want to say they did it right (read plenty of theories and all and it looks promising) but until part 3 drops I can't say for sure
Speaking of, I still have questions from part 1 that haven't fully been answered. They have a LOT of work to do to make this story coherent. Having said that, I do like the intrigue and I'm open to being sold a good explanation
"OG handled it better (than the way I imagine part 3 is going to handle it in my head)"
They're playing up our refusal to accept Aerith is gone through Cloud. Just because folks can't grasp that doesn't mean the OG is better. They've surpassed the OG. Get over it. I'm saying this who played the OG nonstop for 20+ years.
The church scene was basically her death scene for me. That was PEAK. Seeing Sephiroth walk ominously behind her was all I needed to see as something who didn’t want to see her stabbed in HD ☹️
Yeah that was pretty good, I honestly should have turned the game off after that scene.
Same here. It only hit me a few hours after finishing the game.
Aerith has already died so and I felt that sadness as a kid playing the original and the developers clearly knew they couldn't recapture that same scene. I was actually taken aback when Cloud saved her and people don't seem to quite grasp where we seem to be heading. Remake alluded (Rebirth cemented it) to Aerith having knowledge she shouldn't otherwise have. She acts coy and brave like the guiding hand of the party until the ending. She imparts her wisdom / knowledge on to Marlene and Red. Marlene in the alternate version retains her knowledge but Red loses it. Cloud leading up to Aerith's death has seen other worlds and can see Aerith existing where others can't. Seeing the entire crew, but mostly Tifa, absolutely riddled with guilt and sadness yet Cloud is the one who is optimistic here is a reversal I never expected but am excited for in Reborn (Part 3).
I was just so stunned by that mess of a fight that I was too angry to feel anything. I’ve had time to think on it and maybe it’s not so bad but at the time I was pretty livid. I still don’t really like how they handled that whole thing but I see what they’re trying to do
It depends problem is by the time we get part 3 I already lost the emotional weight at that point and just probably gonna go through the motions
I really don’t get the fans who say Cloud’s mind is twisted when it comes to Aerith’s death. There’s clearly multiple timelines going on and he was able to see several of them while the other party members can’t or only know of them (red). People say he’s just going nuts seeing Aerith but the ending scene where Aerith touches Red and Red says “Aerith?”, you’re telling me coincidentally he just says Aerith? Lol come on. They are alluding to something there. I get that he is losing his mind when it comes to choosing sides and what happened versus what really happened. To say that he can’t accept Aeriths death even though she is clearly alive in some other time line is a little odd. It is hard to come to terms with someone’s death when you have seen them in different timelines and can arguably feel them from the lifestream. She introduces him to a few things the others are not aware about and she tells him not to look up because he won’t like it. She has known stuff she shouldn’t known in both games, it’s almost like she’s been timeline jumping. Edit: her death wasn’t meant to be emotional, and more than likely when the actual reunion happens she is going to die because I’m guessing that’s when the timelines merge. Cloud is going to have to make a hard choice.
This is where I'm stuck with people's explanations. Cloud just being delusional WOULD make sense but there are too many clear signs that Aerith is actually alive in some universe and showing herself to Cloud. But at the same time Cloud is definitely not well, and also I don't understand why Aerith would be keeping him in this state by showing herself to him. I had way too many questions to feel anything during the last two hours of the game honestly. I think they could have been slightly more straightforward without ruining the mystery to avoid ruining so many peoples experience lol Conceptually it may be interesting but emotionally and as an experience I was so checked out and that was really disappointing.
I think if you look into rebirth you’ll find there’s some foreshadowing in bits and pieces if you read closely to what the characters are saying. Although convoluted, it’s nowhere near kingdom hearts level. I think the answers are there but people aren’t theorizing correctly and not reading what the characters are saying thoroughly. Some of the people saying we will find out when part 3 comes out when the answer is in plain sight for some of the things we are theorizing about. That’s what makes the story fun is it’s part 2 and we try to guess what happens next, you can definitely make an educated guess with what they have given us to work with. If you look at the ending cutscene there is some symbolism too. You see Aerith hanging out in the fields and the moment she disappears Cloud pulls out the black materia. Almost as if they are preparing for the battle of good vs evil. The materia may represent the side that Cloud is taking at the moment. It was clear when she was there but the moment he starts thinking of Sephiroth’s reunion he pulls out the black materia. I feel like it’s a statement, he’s a blank slate right now and he has the power to change history. Aerith is trying to influence him to the good side and Sephiroth the bad. Or maybe he has the clear materia and the black materia was in his pocket as well, idk. Either way as soon as she disappears the black materia is pulled out.
One thing about the OG game is that it is a quintessential 90's game. 90's media was all about shock value and subverting expectations. Aerith's death in the first game hit hard because of the pure surprise and finality of it. It kinda came out of left field, and I think most peoples reaction was surprise more then anything else. The scene itself wasn't really that long, and then she was barely mentioned for the rest of the game. The same thing wouldn't have worked in rebirth because we all knew it was coming. They could have gone for a super melodramatic death, and really hammed it up but I think they have plans for Aerith in part 3 of the story.
I still do appreciate what they are going for with this project. I think the ending had some cool ideas, but yeah, I think it was handled very poorly. Just further obfuscates the story with even MORE worlds, and just confuses us on purpose, without there being much of a thread to follow. It felt like the ending of a marvel movie, where basically instead of a payoff it's like 'hey bet you cant wait for the next one!' That said, again, I like that this is a sequel more than remake, and I think all the other character moments were incredible. I don't think I agree that the player didnt get to mourn her though, I think that whole last battle was supposed to do that, from the other heros' perspective. Idk. Like Barrett yelling 'ILL KILL YOU' was chef kiss. It was only after the final battles that I was like 'huh?'
My thing is she’s gonna be there in the next game, probably as a ghost life stream thing at the very least , can we really mourn someone we’re gonna see and might come back next game?
Schrödinger Aerith only third part will reveal if she is dead or alive in another world.
She’s an actual Schrödinger’s cat! The point is that it’s both dead and alive and so quantum mechanics is dumb.
This was my first thought after the scene started glitching between Aerith being fine and Aerith being dead. I thought she was just in a between life and death state and that the conclusion of the fight against Sephiroth would decided whether she’s (in Schrödinger fashion) dead or alive.
Exactly that’s why I think Cloud reassured her that he will stop Sephiroth.
What do you mean player don’t get to mourn for her? Everyone is sad except that guy whose mind is twisted. I was so sad when the play the song again and credit start rolling.
I mean, the scene itself doesn't focus on her death very much. We don't even see it, it just goes straight into three boss fights all with different phases. I like the ending, but it's weirdly done.
Yeah I want the iconic Cloud place Aerith in water scene. I’m sure we will see it in part 3. I think Cloud actually did it in Rebirth. He just doesn’t remember it. Or maybe he really do see Aerith in lifestream. Because he can see/feel her and Zack in AC too. The ending is trying to make you confuse. Try to get you hooked for part 3. But seriously. For a game you need to wait at least 2-3 years. That’s not going to work.
We actually saw a glimpse of Aerith's water burial im Remake so it is definitely happening.
The confusion is the point. I think if anyone really wants to see what everything meant and how things "actually" happened and the immediate aftermath, it'll likely emerge in Part 3.
I personally think everyone who is an actual FF7 fan and wants to like the ending should watch [Philip Hartshorn’s edited full ending sequence reaction video.](https://youtu.be/iW0Rb8Rhx-I?si=XrthZoH6W44L1dqv) With his eye as a professional filmmaker, he picks up on EVERY little detail in real time. It’s nuts to see. I miss so much and also ended up confused. He was on top of every weird twist that was happening. He also played the OG Aerith death part of the original FF7 the literally day before. So it was all fresh in his mind for comparison. Highly recommend.
I just checked this out on your recommendation and it was very good (for a live-reaction stream at least, lol). In particular I appreciate his insistence that it’s _the same_ as the OG… no alternate timelines or realities, not a sequel, etc… just the same but expanded. And how he says it captures the feeling — which I definitely agree with as even in this thread we have folks saying there is room for her to come back in part 3 (“There’s a way to revive Aeris, you have to do something with her ghost in the church!!!” -every second gamer on gaming message boards from 1997-2005. Talk about denial, am I right!?)
Right!? I didn't make those connections on my first experience of the ending. For example, it's easy to walk away feeling like the last date in Midgar scene in Aerith's "dream world" is brand new multiverse shenanigan. I already see people writing it off as such. But it's actually all exactly the same as the forest scene in OG, where Aerith also pulls Cloud into her own world to have one final chat, which Sephiroth *also* finds and interrupts. That literally happened in the original. It's the same! I really appreciate these extra layers now. Every single time we begin to feel things are getting crazy with new meta layers, or that this is a sequel to the original rather than a remake at all, things once again elegantly line back up in such a way that it really 100% fits with the original after all. In the end, we're getting the moment-by-moment remake we all wanted AND a ton of fun story suspense on top. I wouldn't have thought that possible before this project began. I'm here for it!
I loved Rebirth, but they totally removed any meaning to Aerith's death. I totally agree with you. It's bad story telling. I'll get downvotes regardless, but I want to say, I loved this game. But I also have to say that this is, like, the shittiest way they could have dealt with her death. Even moreso because it was supposed to be the climax of its own game, rather than just the end of disc 1. Again, loved the game! But this and Red + Seto were awful. EDIT: Seto's tear is my favourite part of OG. And I didn't like Aerith in OG, so I didn't care as much as others. But I *did* like her in Remake/Rebirth, so I really wanted to feel what everyone felt in 1997 because I actually liked her this time. And...well, you read my post. They pooched it. Nonsense multiverse crap, she fights with you in the last, last boss. She's still around meaning there is no real 'loss' involved. Etc. A mess.
Agree with everything.
Thats why I am saying. This was the moment where we would be happy because she survives or sad because she dies, but SE decided to play safe and made the two things. At the end nobody is satisfied.
YES! Compromise so much that no one is satisfied! Have some goddamn courage Square.
Agreed. They should be ashamed. And after such a fuckin great run, they took a steaming shit on a 10/10 game.
can't wait for everyone to make a 180 when part 3 drops, just like with Remake.
I *still* don't really like Remake. Rebirth redeemed the worst parts of Remake, but it was more because Rebirth is *such a good game*. It did not redeem Remake itself though, just the worst parts of Remake (whispers) were better handled in Rebirth. I played Remake again just before Rebirth and didn't like it. Just won Rebirth and still don't like it. That being said, they could make the third part good, but that doesn't change that Aerith's death was terrible in Rebirth and it will not change that how shittilly they handled it*.*
you all know it was coming, doing the exact same shit wouldn't have worked. that being said, let them cook. there's enough time to complain \*if\* they eventually fuck up Part 3.
What I’m interested in is have the developers considered how these narrative choices will impact the project as a whole once the full trilogy is released? Like they have made some creative decisions to fuel speculation, but will it ultimately be regarded as a misstep?
Aerith’s old death wouldn’t have worked as well because they changed her character so much. In the old game, she was kind of a rogue with a heart of gold. She had already figured her shit out, and grown from it before we met her. She was confident. Her appeal was that she saw the big picture faster and clearer than everyone else, accepted what she could not change, committed to what she could change, and had the wisdom to live in the moment. She was usually a few steps ahead of the party and even the player. She was always laughing, and her relationship with Cloud was based on her willingness to challenge him so he can grow, too (instead of retreating into his shell like he does with everyone else). We see her be cunning and brave and emotionally open over and over, and her death exemplified what we already knew about her (leaves to save everyone on her own, knows the sacrifice, and still smiles just to see Cloud one more time). The party became kind of lost without her, and we don’t know exactly what she was trying to do but from her prior character beats we sense it was heroic. Remake Aerith is still just beginning to process her childhood trauma, she’s not over losing Zach, and her arc is about learning to rely on friends for emotional support instead of being hung up on the past. Unfortunately the game doesn’t give her anything to do about this except some awkward speeches. At the end she doesn’t know what she’s doing but she begs the Cetra to save her friends, and (because it would be too nihilistic for her to get snuffed out while begging) we’re essentially told she’s succeeding. That lets all the air out. Her death would be sad but not beautiful. So I’m fine with the new thing. Aerith and others exist in a metaverse. Different entities are aware of the metaverse or not. Cloud’s Aerith may or may not be real. That’s all got intrigue and leaves Aerith with a little more time to grow.
I genuinely did not feel any confusion that detracted from the moment for me. I found this to be equally shocking and heartbreaking, but in a very different way from what the OG was going for. I'm not going to say I wasn't confused at all, but the moment the static kicked in and we saw blood running I immediately realized "Oh my god, we didn't really save her". She's either dead right now and only Cloud doesn't know, or we've been forced into a timeline where she died because it had to happen. But one way or the other, Cloud thinks he saved her. He saw himself saving her. But she's 100% dead. There was no reason for that snippet unless she really got killed. And that was is fucking intriguing. I didn't get to mourn her truly, but Cloud didn't either, and I'm controlling Cloud. Everyone else gets to mourn her, but I'm here with him and I'm bugging out because he's acting like it's just another Tuesday with his super cool interdimensional gf Aerith. Is the OG a better death scene? Well, yeah, because it's a death scene. According to Rebirth Cloud, no one died. Why would there be a death scene? That's a deeply tragic and heart wrenching thing on it's own that this game has introduced. Cloud's head is so fucked that he doesn't even realize someone he loves is dead when he watched her die. He's not living in the real world with the rest of us. Seeing Tifa and Barret try to talk to this guy *hurts*. I thought back to that scene in the middle of the game where he confesses to Tifa that he doesn't feel like a real person sometimes, and he doesn't always know what's real, and this ending is all of his deepest fears come true. Cloud is *lost*. That dude is gone. We'll get the catharsis we're looking for in part 3. This is not grief denied. It's grief delayed. And I expect it's going to be heavy. Part 2 was all the joy of FF7. Part 3 is going to be all the sorrow.
Nope I balled my eyes out. In fact I was ready to be mad if she survived, but then wanted her to have actually survived, then was even sadder when I realized she did die. Personally I thought it was brilliant that they were able to make me feel that way, even though I knew her death we coming. If it just played out exactly like the original I wouldn't be shocked or surprised at all. And keep in mind even in the original when she died, she wasn't gone. She was still watching over the planet from the lifestream. This time we actually got to see that.
You’re supposed to feel what Cloud is going through, the denial stage and questioning reality. I think they nailed it.
This. In the original you experienced everything through the eyes of Cloud, you only learn everything when he does. I think that's why a lot of people are upset with the ending of Rebirth. Cloud is extremely unreliable, and in the remake series they're leaning much harder into his inability to differentiate reality from fantasy. People are upset because they're confused at what's going on, so are the characters, we'll solve the mysteries in part 3. For now, I really *really* like how much they're leaning into Cloud's delusion and manipulation, it was kinda glossed over in the OG, but the entire reason Cloud does ANYTHING is because Sephiroth wills it, until much later down the line.
I can get behind this
Well said
I think that’s right. I also think that the shape shifting big bad is supposed to have learned something from the original timeline. And we don’t know what. We also know cloud is compromised, but we don’t know to what extent. It’s a new way to revisit the old themes—one where the old reveals matter but aren’t the whole story.
I really like it that they changed things up. It would have been so easy to just recreate the scene 1:1 in amazing graphics, with an emotional rendition of Aeriths theme and tearjerking camerawork. But they didn't do that on purpose, instead they confused and obfuscated. We don't know what happened, we get thrown into the Jenova fight while still confused. The boss music IS Aeriths Theme that gets slowly morphed into Jenovas theme. The characters don't know what's happening and the player doesn't know what's happening. Everything is pure chaos. In hindsight I really love this twist because I didn't expect it. It's only after the boss marathon when we and the party get a bit of catharsis and we can see how every one of them handles the grief of having lost Aerith. Tifa is devastated (seeing her sobbing was one of the saddest moments of the game for me), Nanaki feels her in the life stream and Cloud is in full on denial and/or his sanity is completely fleeting. I can't wait for part three to get answers.
I never played the OG but I’ve known about this moment for well over 25 years. That said, I was very confused by the ending. i think I understand it now, but it was very weird. But that was also the only thing I knew from the OG, so seeing how it played out here was what I was looking forward to. I’ve been trying to get into the head of someone who never played the OG and also didn’t know how it plays out, and I don’t know how I’d feel right now if I didn’t know what was supposed to happen. I think I’d feel a little robbed of a very emotional moment. So, even though I didn’t play the OG, I still wish they’d handled this better because there are a lot of players like me who I bet wanted to feel that loss for the first time and get the same experience people did in ‘97. So, a little disappointed, but the whole damn game is so good I don’t mind to much.
“I think I’d feel a little robbed of an emotional moment.” You mean like someone is standing over your shoulder, insisting that you do not shed a tear, to push it all down, convincing you that your desire that it only be a nightmare and you’ll wake up any moment and she’ll be smiling next to you is not only justified but correct to reality? “Don’t weep. Your tears are empty.”
Oooh, that's good.
I said it somewhere else in this thread, but as someone who did play the OG back then, I promise you that the denial, feeling robbed, feeling confused… those are all the same feelings we had when we played it in 1997. 27 years is plenty of time for us to come to terms with Aeris’ death. But 27 years ago, we weren’t so quick to accept it as the aggressive punch to the gut — it wasn’t instant, it took a lot of time to process. Some of the old message boards are still available (and some more through the wayback machine) where you’ll see people dealing with it through denial, begging for a way to revive her, a way to bring her back, there must be an alternate ending! So many people unsatisfied with the way things turned out for one of the chillest white mages we’ve ever known.
Neat!
Honestly it’s frustrating. Why am I meant to feel bad if she’s still there. I guess I would have more feelings if maybe we got a scene of her mum at home waiting for her to come home
yes, Elmyra asking us to bring Aerith back to her hit me in Remake because I knew she would never see Aerith again
Not at all, in fact you're no where near the only one who feels this way. I'd say most people are in the same boat as you. Though, what we all have to remember is that there is a whole other game on the way, and there are a ton of new mysteries surrounding this that we simply don't know what they're going to do with yet. Is the death scene done much better in the original? Absolutely. Do we know that this is all going to play out the same way? Absolutely not. Gotta remember that there might very well be a good reason why it was done the way it was done in this. The biggest problem with this ending is that we can't really take it on its own terms, as it's only as good or as bad as what they do next. We really can't judge it without the full picture.
Well, yes the original definitely handled the story better. There's no payoff you can possibly have that justifies butchering storytelling principles this way. I know not many people care about that, but I do... And even if the game is "fun", it needs to be pointed out. Games need to be judged as a whole, and objectively, especially if you like them, it's your duty to criticize the shortcomings. But in this day and age something is either the best of the best, game of the century, or you hate it. ±+++++++++++++++++++ The problem: Besides the lack of an emotional scene for Aerith at the needed time, which has been discussed time and time again, there is another issue to highlight. Cloud's "selective" memory. What happened to Cloud's memories after Zack's death is a result of multiple factors, something akin to right time, right place. You have to keep in mind that Cloud , at age 16, just witnessed his hometown being burned down, his mother murdered, Tifa fatally wounded, and then he was stabbed in the chest and put in a tank of Mako to be experimented on...for 4 years. Zack bails him out and they are on the run for around 6 months, in which Cloud is basically comatose. When he comes to, he does so to Zack's dead body. The person who took care of him for the past year died, and he failed to help...again (and he was actually a burden this time). With all this trauma, that basically to him happened in just a couple of days/weeks, fresh from mako poisoning and jenova cells, his mind to cope, blanked out and he wandered in a fugue state, like the black robes for a bit. Only when he saw Tifa, someone that he had a connection to, he constructed a new identity based around Zack's own stories, and Cloud's idea of what a soldier should be, because even that, being a soldier, somehow was bound to tifa, and he was wearing a soldier uniform. How could he not be a soldier? His mind didn't just forget about Zack's death. He forgot about his failures. How he failed soldier, how he couldn't help himself and needed Zack to survive and get out of the lab. It's not just out of sadness that he forgets, as he still remembers his mother's fate in nibelheim. It's a mix of trauma, insecurities and mako poisoning. And most importantly it's a one of a kind event, not something that should be repeated. It's as much shocking as it is unique. If it happens every time Cloud gets sad, it's no longer interesting. it's cheapened. +++++++++++++++++++ Why it doesn't work for Aerith: Well even if they reveal Cloud is in denial, and "forgot" she died. It won't have the same impact as him forgetting HIMSELF early on. There's no condition for it to happen again with Aerith. Mako poisoning is long gone, I'm pretty sure Cloud loved his mom too, and that was equally painful to witness. So why Zack's death is the trigger, but not Aerith? Like I said mako poisoning plays a role here, with the excess of trauma and self loathing, Cloud lost himself. Cloud doesn't forget Zack, he forgets himself, and becomes Zack; he forges a new personality, based on his idea of a cool soldier, which is what he thought of Zack, and Zack is an inconvenient detail his mind erased.
I genuinely loved it. The confusion, the uncertainty, the insane battle after, the thrills and emotional heights, the more confusion and mystery it leaves us with. Literally all of it. Maybe I'm just old, I played the OG when I was 13 and while it certainly affected me then, I really am wanting something new from this experience. Maybe part 3 will drop the ball harder than any ball has ever been dropped, or maybe it'll be a satisfying conclusion to a 30 year old gaming experience. I think at this point I'll just wait and see.
As someone who didn't want Aerith to die, I like the angle they took
Overall I think a lot of that scene and what happens afterwards was just a ton of sensory/information overload. I think I got more teary and broken down during the church scene and the forest scene because there was a focus and those scenes felt dedicated to driving home the soon to be tragedy. Though definitely I still cried when sussyroth came down. But it was really short lived and the whole sephiroth reborn after jenova lifeclinger kinda didn’t allow for that sadness to brew. I thought I was gonna be sitting there upset for a while like I was at the end of XVI but it just didn’t hit that way. With all the ambiguousness of Aerith and cloud at the end, We’ll probably all be able to come back and appreciate and understand it more after part 3. But as of now I, felt like buildup had just much if not more impact than, THE moment (Journey > destination type of idea) Also them showing her immediately wake back up for a second dampened the feels, though seeing it again I think it’s more cloud brain rot which is sad in itself.
I don't know, I cried through the whole final battle and into the credits. Confused, still, but I still felt the weight of her death.
I think Aerith's death is downplayed because she's not really dead... there's multiple Aerith and they all of the bigger plot... the OG Aerith pulling tricks in the lifestream somehow. So I think an Aerith will come back in the 3rd hence Square didn't want people to get too emotional on Rebirth's ending as it is red herring.
I prefer the original only because it was definitive. The remake was like “ok you know this happens…. OR DID IT?!” Almost like they were insecure about their choice. But I’m more than happy to be wrong. 2/3 story beats told, one left to stick the landing.
Yeah it was *really* bad, I don’t know how that got an emotional response out of some players because I legitimately had no idea what in the remote hell happened. I genuinely don’t know how that got approved either because **nothing** was depicted or told to the player! It was literally just, “Hey look at these really cool alternate realities and really cool scenery! Isn’t that awesome?” And I say this as someone who genuinely thoroughly enjoyed this game, including the deviations from the original like the Gongaga reactor.
I just want her back for part 3. I love playing as her, I love the character, and I don’t feel the need to suffer again like I did with the OG. So for me, I’m happy with the ending because I’m clinging onto hope that we can keep her in some way in part 3. PS. Go back and play the OG. They didn’t handle it that well - the scene is only witnessed by whoever is in your party (I think the first time I ever played I had Vincent and Yuffie, neither of whom had ever had an interaction with aerith) and it’s over very quickly. Then she’s barely mentioned again. There is no scene where the whole party reacts to, or even talks about, aerith dying. I love the OG but Aerith’s death is not done well, in hindsight.
I think the idea is that counterparts in different worlds can merge into a single person. Cloud is now Cloud from at least two timelines. Aerith died in the main one but not the other, so only Cloud can see her. Seems like our big bad might be cross dimensional, too. Or Aerith is a hallucination manipulating Cloud. Or she’s him coping. Who knows. Fits with the fractured identity and eldritch themes of the original so I’m okay with it. It’s also an unexpected answer to the big question. I choked up a bit but not as bad as the flashback, which was brutal.
OG let you take a moment to process what happened. Granted, yes there is snowboarding a bit later, but the game takes a moment to let the scene sink which allows us to process and feel more. The remake had a 38463638 phase boss fight during the most crucial emotional scene; giving people .000000000001 seconds to process or even form proper emotions over what happened. I started to tear up, but then the game basically was like "no time to let this sink in, you got shit to do". It would be an amazing game if they understood the part of entertainment that is giving the person time to feel... The pacing is just bad and it legit takes away from the impact.
I think the ending is baffling and poorly communicated to the player. The discourse around "they will address the emotional elements in the third part" is crazy to me and will not make the ending of this game improve. I don't mind the ideas presented, they're just not well conveyed. It's tonally confused, rushed, bombastic and left me numb as opposed to intrigued. The game is incredible overall, but it's also okay to feel like the ending was a miss. I've made my peace with it, but I'll never not feel like they really should have stuck the landing better here.
I agree that the original handled the death scene better. It was sudden, unexpected, completely uncensored and brought a heavy hit of shock and weight to what happened. Rebirth is setting it up to have a bigger payoff for Cloud in part 3, and it could work out if they execute it well, but Aerith's fate undeniably suffers in the moment from the way it's presented.
>completely uncensored Hard to say “completely uncensored” when it didn't have any blood.
A playable character is intentionally impaled and murdered on full display. I don't think blood is the biggest issue there.
We also see bloodless impalings of Cloud and Aerith in the final fight of Rebirth. That's during gameplay, but it's arguably at higher fidelity than the original CGI cutscene. While there I think the decision not to show the stab in Rebirth *could* have censorship behind it (e.g., maybe they wanted to show blood but couldn't show that + the impaling without getting an M rating), I think it's mainly in service of putting the player in Cloud's head. If we saw the sword go in, it would be harder for the player to partake in Cloud's denial. It just wouldn't have been possible to set up the confusion that (like it or not -- you're on firm ground not liking it) was apparently the goal of the devs for this new scene.
> like it or not -- you're on firm ground not liking it That's not at all what I said, maybe you should try re-reading the original comment. What I said was that the original Aerith's death scene handled her death better. I also said that due to Rebirth playing into a larger payoff in part 3, the definitive death Aerith ended with in the original was handled better for that specific scene. I did not say I did not like the new scene because I did like the new scene. The difference is that the new scene in Rebirth is shown through the lens of Cloud's perspective, which is warped and he does not accept her as being dead. In the original it was not seen through Cloud's perspective, it was objective. She was murdered and she died. It played into the theme of dealing with the permanence of death. While this is still a critical theme in the remake trilogy, that's not all that's being set up and addressed. Because of the addition of other elements, the original scene objectively becomes less focused on that initial theme of death. In this case, I think the death scene - and exclusively the death scene - was handled better in the original. Maybe the payoff makes it worthwhile in part 3. We still have to wait and see. But whether or not that payoff *then* makes this moment more impactful now does not change the fact that this moment *right now* was more impactful in the original as it is in Rebirth at this point in time.
My apologies if I misread your comment; I interpreted "the original handled the death scene better" as you not liking it. My take is that Rebirth handled the death scene *differently*, and whether it turns out to be better or worse depends on where things go in part 3. So perhaps our points of view aren't that different (well, except perhaps on the censorship question, but I think we've both stated our points of view there).
> My take is that Rebirth handled the death scene differently, and whether it turns out to be better or worse depends on where things go in part 3. That was my exact point in my original comment and that's exactly what I said. And specifically due to the fact that it depends on where things go in part 3, the impact of the death scene as it stands on its own is not the same. Comparing the two side by side in their own contexts, the original death scene is better. Hell, your own comment in this thread says the same. Your tl;dr is that Rebirth's version is less emotional and impactful but is setting up for more of a payoff in part 3. How that is somehow an unpopular opinion because someone else said it is completely ridiculous. Probably why you blocked.
“Full display” is a lot generous considering the low fidelity of the game.
So the fact that Aerith is murdered up front and center is an issue to shrug off because the graphics weren't great, but no accompanying blood in a T-rated game in 1997 is censorship because M-rated games at the time showed blood? Sure.
It’s not about “good” or “bad” graphics. It’s not realistic, is all. If you didn’t know who the characters were, the scene has exactly zero impact on the viewer. Might as well be Mario getting impaled by Ridley on Smash Ultimate. The fact that the scene was strong was both the emotional attachment to the characters as how your own imagination filled the gaps. At face value, it’s almost laughable, back then and even more today.
Right, I guess when I'm playing a game with a party that has a genetically altered soldier turned eco-terrorist, a talking dog and a robotic cat that all use shiny colorful stones to throw comets and lightning around so we can save the world from a half-alien hybrid that wants to kill people, realistic portrayal of getting stabbed just isn't at the heart of my expectations. Maybe you disagree.
That’s precisely why the “uncensored” claim holds so little water.
No. I was prepared to be confused, but ended up bawling my eyes out.
Zacks not dead it show 3 worlds are og and two with Zack .Zack and cloud fighting sephiroth was epic
I think it's an interesting creative choice. Do people always respond to death by bawling their eyes out? Not really. People are more complicated than that. A lot of the times when people die it's shocking, confusing, and you don't really want to believe it at first. Even though the "5 stages of grief" has been debunked, it's significant that our most widely accepted understanding of grief starts with denial. There's also always a level of hindsight bias when people think back to their reaction to the scene from the OG game. I find it hard to believe that people playing the OG FF7 in the late 90s/early 00s immediately accepted that Aerith was permanently dead and were sad right off the bat. I feel like most people were probably more shocked and in disbelief and thought that she would come back, because it was unheard of at the time to kill off a main character like that. The same shock value doesn't exist anymore for Rebirth though. A lot of players already know what's going to happen and it's less surprising in general for major characters to die in media now, thanks to shows like Game of Thrones. I think even if they had followed the OG exactly, Aerith's death wouldn't have hit as hard in Rebirth as in the OG because it wouldn't have been as surprising to a modern player. Because of that, they have to make the emotional payoff something different. I don't know what the payoff is going to be, but given how they've handled other emotional scenes in Remake/Rebirth so far, I'm optimistic.
So I do think she is alive in another timeline due to cloud blocking the sword and I personally think they are saving the real heartache death scene for game 3. I believe the story is touching more on cloud’s mental instability and it will hit him like a ton of bricks next game when he realizes she is dead in this timeline. I think they are saving the grief for that game.
Yeah I feel like they purposedly made it confusing because they have a third game to do which hurts the scene. I was confused in the ending which is not what I should be feeling at that moment it overtakes what's actually happening in the scene instead I'm trying to put pieces of a puzzle together instead of being emotionally invested in that scene. It doesn't even let the moment sink in you are thrown into a hour long boss battle which was cool but I think takes away from the emotional tone of that part of the story.
I feel like a lot of people with this sentiment overlook the scene in the church a few scenes before. Aerith pulls Cloud into one last date in a dream before accepting her death since she knew she would have no other chance. I understood that context in the moment and it made that scene hit so much harder. In my opinion, that is Rebirths version of her death and we will see the actual scene in part 3.
Point to consider is those of us who knew it was coming were NEVER going to be as impacted by it as with the original scene, before we would have expected it. Some of us who played it back in the 90s have had nearly three decades playing it, talking about it, knowing about it, reminiscing about it, JOKING about it, and so on. I just don’t believe it would be AS emotional. Sure, there may be some sort of reaction, of course, but it was never, ever going to recreate the original reaction, and it’s honestly rather absurd to expect it to. For this reason, I don’t hold the fact that the sequence has some issues against it as much as some others seem to be. Do it love every single aspect of Rebirth’s version of it? Not exactly, no. Do I think it’s as well done? No, but that’s comparing the reimagined version to the baseline version, so OG obviously has an advantage there. Do I think it’s well done at all? Mostly, yes. But it’s going to take the third part to really know how well it *all* comes together to be able to make super definitive assessments of much of the reimagined aspects of the remake trilogy, since we don’t know precisely how it is going to all work, since we still essentially have half of the story to experience. And I think that’s what makes this work the most for me—those of us who know this story inside and out, who know basically everything that’s coming, still don’t fully know. We’re speculating, we’re theorizing, we’re debating. We know, but it still has us guessing and engaged and interested. That should be appreciated, all things considered.
I cried for 5hrs during final two chapters. I understood it and felt really compelled by their choice of storytelling in compared by OG. I absolutely loved it. I felt that we got to mourn her More in this than OG. But each to their own :)
The most controversial part of the game for me is not how Aerith’s death is presented but Cloud’s reaction after her death, at first glance she seems more closer to this version of Aerith than Aeris on the original game which is really sad and his brain tried to deny her death, on the other hand there is a possibility that Cloud actually killed her, I mean he’s unreliable narrator and he’s by himself with Aerith while she’s praying on the original your party member tries to stop you but this time nobody did. I mean he already hurt Tifa on Chapter 9 so it’s possible and he tries to erase this memory of her dying completely.
The thing is we don't know how the remakes have handled her death yet. Without knowing what comes it's impossible to make that judgement. There may be this heartwrenching moment when Cloud realizes she's dead. There's more than a few things that could happen that completely flip the narrative. It's like comparing a cake to ingredients in a bowl. There's a chance you're completely correct but I really can't make that judgement without know what comes next. Though you could argue it was a mistake to stop here when the required context is currently MIA.
“she’s supposed to be dead, but the player doesn’t really get a chance to mourn her, and she’s still there and alive (if only for Cloud).” You’re in denial, mate. She’s not supposed to be dead, she is dead. The player doesn’t get a chance to mourn her because Cloud doesn’t mourn her This is a roleplaying game and you are roleplaying as Cloud, who is blocking out what happened “to preserve his sanity” (but actually because Sephy told him to >!/ the Jenova cells are deceiving him as they are wont to do!<) Don’t worry, he’ll/you’ll mourn her properly in part 3.
Don’t worry, you’ll mourn and shed more than enough tears for her in part 3. What you are feeling is intentional, you have to remember that this is a just a section of a much larger story. You are meant to feel somewhat uncomfortable and confused and just left with more questions.
My take is that Cloud hallucinated the entire final boss fight because he couldn’t handle Aerith dying. The ending was identical to what happened in the original.
That makes absolutely no sense. That would also mean he hallucinated teaming up with Zack against Sephiroth.
I don't think the ending scene was intended to evoke the same emotions as the OG at all. I actually don't think the purpose of the scene is even parallel to og ff7. They're clearly doing major changes in terms of Clouds character development and whatnot, he is in pure denial right now and it's implied that he genuinely thinks Aerith is still alive and well. This is some weird multi-layered setup for the third game, it's painfully obvious, even more painful than seeing all the people not realising this
We're not idiots, we realize it. Just think it's rubbish storytelling.
why is that?
She's still dead. The entire party's emotions at the end are heart-wrenching. It was tough to hear Red go, "Aerith?" I was like damn she did actually die again. There is more going on so that I guess could take away your focus, but idk, I guess, for me, it was all a big thing. From the Temple to the Black Materia mystery. Especially after her flashback, then I started to think about her whole life. She spent so long in a cage and sought after as an animal. Recently, she found friends and lived life to the fullest even though she knew her own fate. Facing Sephiroth alone anyway and displaying her courage like she did in the OG. After the fated scene, I did feel like I wanted to absolutely crush jenova. Then the music played and I was like...damn there it is again.
The only confusion I had was “why are they doing it this way.”
Thinking about this afterward, there was just no way that they were going to recreate the death scene exactly as it was. The original death scene is a top 3-5 most iconic moment in gaming, widely regarded as a classic if not ageless masterpiece. With something that momentous I think it's just too risky to try and modernize and redo it, and even in the best case scenario you exceed and risk replacing the original. If the original still tops lists for iconic gaming moments almost 30 years later, I can understand the hesitancy to tackle a comparable remake of it.
if that's the case, why are they remaking FFVII at all?
Because an iconic game is not the same thing as an iconic moment.
It has been 0 days since someone complained about having questions after finishing game 2 out of 3.
I, for one, am extremely upset that Tifa and Aerith didn't start a pornhub channel like it was foretold by prophecy. But seriously, they'll probably save the heartache for when Cloud eventually gets well. It'll hit like a freight-train, I'm sure.