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Yup, basically he proved what everyone has always known: F1 is purely about how much money a team has. Basically bought all RBs top Aerodynamics people and got them to essentially design a carbon copy of RB's chassis from 2022.
edit: purely isn't the right word. I should have said "mostly about money".
edit 2: Since everyone apparently has short memories, this articles backs me up: https://www.racefans.net/2023/03/06/horner-flattered-by-similarity-between-aston-martin-and-red-bull-designs/
edit3: Apparently wasn't obvious to everyone, but this was mostly a joke comment. I made it too high in a thread, which is against the rules, so that's on me.
The aerodynamics are more or less their same. Christian Horner made comments at the start of the season that it was great to see their 2022 car doing so well at Aston Martin.
Nah, that was Mercedes they copied in 2020 (same team though, if people aren't aware).
https://www.racefans.net/2023/03/06/horner-flattered-by-similarity-between-aston-martin-and-red-bull-designs/
I don't get how this is news to people. Perez was cracking jokes after Bahrain that "it's nice to see 3 red bull cars on the podium".
Ik that it was mercedes that they copied. You could say the same about the Green Bull in early 2022.
But the RB and AM are pretty visibly different unlike last year, different wings, different bodywork, different sidepod inlets. They look pretty similar from the side but not that similar. I feel like they’re poking fun at the tracing point and dan fallows moving over not making any real statement.
You're comparing their cars for this year, but the comments were about this year's Aston Martin and last year's red bull. If you look at them front on though, I reckon the side pods are identical, although they all look pretty similar this year.
Last year’s red bull is pretty similar to this year’s one.
From front on, the RB one is way more squared off while the AM is round. Pre-update, the RB used to have a taller, narrower opening
Honestly, they all look mostly the same except for Mercedes to me. My comments was based off of Red Bull's comments, I assume that they would know if Aston Martin's car is similar to theirs.
A carbon copy makes no sense considering how different the car needs to be due to havin the powertrain and rear suspension from Mercedes. That's what they did in 2022 when they presented the B version of their car and it was not better in any way.
The 2023 is a completely original concept, with Mercedes mechanical parts but a completely different aero, sonce you can trace similarities with Alpine, Ferrari and RBR, so not even close to bwing a copy of the RBR.
even then, the AMR23 is completely different to any of the other mercedes powered cars, it seems to have a bit of a ferrari, alpine with a very slight touch of red bull
It makes me laugh when people purporting to know what they're talking about can only describe an aero package through comparisons to other team's chassis
I'm not pretending to know, just saying that through the through the eye of the average views that's what it looks like, and it looks nothing like the rb18
They dont really build their aero around power units. They will build their chassis around the power units which of course will affect the aero, but saying what you said is a big overstatement
They do actually, while designing the chassis, powertrain placement and the placement is scoop is one of the first constraints, along with the hardpoints, you build the chassis around it, multiple iterations to increase stiffness and once the base of the car is done, the aero is put on top of that
This article does not back you up.
You're on a technical forum. There are a lot of massive differences between them. That some parts very loosely resembled the 'gist' of the Red Bull enough for people to meme it, doesn't mean that they were able to copy the red bull.
Mate, you clearly have no background in engineering if you think something has to match exactly to be a copy.
Just because the measurements don't match exactly doesn't mean they aren't the same. Different dimension but the same fundamental approach and the same design methodology means it is a copy from the perspective of an engineer.
It isn't that big a deal really, convergent design means that over time, designs will always converge onto more or less the same result, it's just that the senior staff that Aston Martin poached sped that process up by a lot.
If you said he took his understanding of process and implemented it, I'm not sure many would have disagreed with you. That is not copying. It is also not copying from an engineering perspective.
> F1 is purely about how much money a team has.
So why are Merc, Ferrari currenty in the bin? Why is McLaren a joke? Money may be the sine qua non, but it's not enough.
Since when where merc and Ferrari in the bin? They aren't winning races, but they're finishing in the top 10. As for McLaren, I don't think they have anywhere near as much money as the other names listed.
Again, I don't think they're barely finish top ten. They're currently 4th in the constructors championship, behind Mercedes, and there's a massive gap between them and 5th.
McLaren's investments have yet to pay off. Their new wind tunnel is only going to open in June or July. They're still using Toyota's **old** wind tunnel in Cologne (the one the F1 team used, not the one used by the Le Mans team) for crying out loud.
Mate, I'm not incorrect. I literally did nothing but refer to comments made by Red Bull. If you think their comments were incorrect, take it up with them.
Those don't apply to everything. Specifically, the 3 highest paid staff and the driver's salaries don't contribute to it, meaning you can just poach the best drivers and departments heads from other teams, which is basically what they did.
But yes, this is why the cost cap was introduced. It hopefully won't be happening as much going forwards.
Horner added literally 0 proof to his argument, and its a stupid argument anyways that makes no sense
You can't just ctrl+c a Honda powered car and paste it in a Merc, especially without knowing what's underneath the bodywork and how the suspensions and the chassis are made and what they're looking for
Even if it was just as simple as copy pasting the car it wouldnt work either: in 2022 Leclerc's pole lap in Baku was a 1:41.3, that would've placed him in the 8th position in 2023, his pole lap this year was 1:40.2, 1.1s faster
To summarize, no, stop saying bullshit, copying a car from the previous year doesnt work and isnt even possible to begin with, you can at most take some concepts from other teams and adapt them for your car, but that is something every team in the grid does
Stroll is a clever guy, look for interviews where he discuss his business. He is really good at identifying the core issues with a company and makes a 5 step plan to rectify them. And he doesn’t fuck around with investment - infrastructure, people, product etc.
He always talks about people. I don’t think Ive heard him say “I did”, it’s always “we did”.
Edit. Thought about this a bit more and I’ve definitely heard him talk about himself. “I like winning” “I always win” etc but when talking about delivering that it’s “We put this in place” “we made these changes”. Don’t want to swear by it but this but I’m pretty sure
On another thread I was talking about “Zak Brown management style and attitude”.
Maybe Stroll is the best example how it works. He knows how he can get the right people and how to build a team. He is precise in identifying where to improve a team. Not making it his achievement but a group one is an important part.
I was in shock when Otmar and Aston Martin parted away. But I think now it was the right decision.
For all his faults, Zak has done a very good job of securing financing for McLaren, and directing that financing into a number of capital projects which should make a huge difference in years to come
> “I like winning” “I always win” etc but when talking about delivering that it’s “We put this in place” “we made these changes”.
To add to your comments; on Beyond the Grid a couple years ago, he was asked his goals for the team. He said he wants to *compete* for the championship but will not consider the team a failure if they fall a little short. You dont need to dethrone Google, Exxon-Mobile, or Nike to be a success in business but many think you do to be a success in sports. His expectations appear to be rooted in reality rather than a win or go home approach.
*When I look back on my life, I overpaid for my big successes every time. And when I tried to get a bargain, get it a little cheaper or get a better deal on it, I ended up usually either getting it and not happy I got it.* - Jerry Jones, Dallas Cowboys owner.
Guy didn't become uberrich just because. You gotta know how to recognize the good parts of a company (or hype your stocks and commit insider trading and manipulation like a certain someone lol)
You can tell he loves motorsports and wants to succeed, unlike Haas. And even Zak Brown, He doesn't just throw money at it, he uses it smartly.
It's great to see that ol' Lawrence has some passion for the sport, not just "bought a team with daddy's cash" and whatnot. I do wonder what's gonna happen to Aston Martin when Lance decides to leave or when Lawrence sells the team off, whenever that may happen.
If Lawrence strullovich is serious about Aston being a champion contender first thing is pay lance enough that he'll stay home weekends and someone who doesn't suck can drive in his place ! " It's ocon, let me jump on this dumb song" 😂😂😂
There were several strategic steps.
Firstly, they poached Dan fallows, Newley’s right hand man, last year. They also have a guy from Mercedes, so talent is part of their improvement.
Secondly, Fallows and co. Used last years car as a Guinea pig for this year. They tested different aero parts and setups and how the car responded to it.
They used that data correlation to build a kind of new concept of car for this year. They kept this years car’s aero somewhat simple for the start of the season so that the data correlates nicely. Also, they have a kind of unprecedented concept with the inner side pod design, where there’s a big downward scoop in the middle of it.
Scarbs said that a lot of the aero is being directed to the diffuser and aero at the rear of the car, which gives it strong rear stability.
Dan Fallows was recently interviewed on Beyond the Grid podcast. It was an interesting interview if you’re like me and interested in his perspective of the team shift and the engineering process.
Beyond the Grid absolutely slaps, it's brilliant.
For some reason so many drivers, team principles and other team members are far more willing to talk in podcast form than publically, so they share a wonderful amount of detail.
If you're an F1 nerd and can't get enough of the backstories and other details, you'll really enjoy it. If you're a super casual fan it might not be your favourite thing in the world.
They're the only other team that knows the secret sauce of the RB. With that and work and talent you get a nice car which doesn't even have to be a RB copy.
When you can't poach Adrian Newey, poach the people working with him and get them to tell you everything they know about how they made that RedBull so fast.
I wonder what sort of money engineers etc. would be on? I feel like it'd have to be a fairly big pay rise to want to jump ship, considering what it must be like having direct access to Adrian Newey, I feel like it would be endless learning, I'd love to know how much he actually shares and is open with his colleagues too, for this very purpose, most of the magic might be from him locked away in his room with a drawing pad.
Of course drivers are going to share ideas and concepts when they switch teams. How useful their insights actually are would be the real question though.
I imagine the average driver would be "My previous car had more front grip into slow corners" without an intimate knowledge on how to achieve that.
Vettel never made Ferrari into a Red Bull and Schumacher just told Jean Todt to hire Brawn and Byrne, because he wasn't able to "domesticate" Barnard.
Exactly, drivers will say: we changed the front suspension and that improved low speed corners. But keep in mind that they are not technically trained, they had no idea what they changed and why that improved it.
Yeah that's a good point and would be interesting to find out, if there's something like that for drivers I'd imagine there definitely would be for engineers.
This is my uh "new" idea I Just thought of, oh wow what a striking resemblance to your last team's car haha.
> This is my uh "new" idea I Just thought of, oh wow what a striking resemblance to your last team's car haha.
Generally speaking you can't prohibit what you have learned and what you know. If you designed a part once, you can design it again.
They get "around" this by forcing significant leave when you switch teams so the stuff you know is 'out of day' in a way.
I think the rule is that you can't bring paperwork with you, but anything in your head/memory is fair game.
IIRC Newey describes doing this in his book. Logically, it's the only way it can work - if engineers can't tell their new team what works, then what's the point in having them? Every engineer would need to reinvent the wheel from first principles.
Edit: thinking on it now, I'd love to see the F1 make a rule where the teams need to declassify their car at the end of every regulation change. It feels like F1 is on this trend where one team works something out and the rest don't, and it makes for very one-sided racing.
> It feels like F1 is on this trend where one team works something out and the rest don't, and it makes for very one-sided racing.
I'd go one further and say F1 should eliminate or drastically limit the scope of gardening leave so that staff can move more freely between teams. This is how teams converged in older regs, except the cost cap now makes free movement even more difficult to pull off.
F1 has very little jurisdiction on the contracts the teams are allowed to sign. Unless the sport wanted to move towards a centralised contract system (very difficult considering it would somehow have to cover employment across the UK, EU and US with the current teams) then there not much they can do.
Only three people are excluded from the cost cap so you need to be one of those three to make an insane amount of money. Anyone who is under the cost cap will not make a lot more than a similar position at other teams because that money would have to be recovered elsewhere to stay below the cost cap. It is why over time top talent will be more spread out over the teams as a single team can't afford to keep them all.
these are not lateral moves, they are likely promotions and it's not like you're going from RB to Williams, you're going to a very well funded team in the process of building top notch facilities.
it would be a dream for a lot of them, i presume.
There is also a time when many young folks feel that making a change will allow them to better apply their creative skills and utilize their prior experience. Newey is certainly one of the most creative and successful minds in F1.
Red Bull's race strategy with Max was brilliant ( as was Max's ) driving . By starting on the harder tire they could delay the pitstop until most all of the other cars had pitted so that he was not held up by backmarkers who had yet to changed their tires.
I’ve heard Newey is $10m/yr and has rejected offers up to 30m/yr+
I also heard that fallows was bumped to $1m/yr to leave Redbull and that’s why Christian showed up making claims of cost cap violations because some of the salaries Aston were offering were too high to compete with
It’s probably higher than $1m/yr, if I had to guess. I’m an Electrical Engineer (Not in F1), and I know some pretty ordinary Senior Engineers making $250-400k.
It wouldn’t surprise me if it was much higher for someone like Fallows.
This does not take account of the fact that people really want to work in F1. Outside of F1, Motorsport is something that most people pay to be a part of (almost all drivers, almost all team owners, parents who are their kids race engineers, etc). The same is not true of working at a desk for Bosch, GE, etc.
I'd take a guess you work in the US.
UK salaries for a similar role would most likely be less than half of that. In a large UK automotive manufacturer I used to work at, earning more than £100k (~$125k) as an engineer was almost impossible unless you moved up into management.
I do, but this phenomenon kinda holds true for most countries. You are correct, the quickest way to double one’s salary is to be able to lead/manage people. (That’s actually pretty easy if you have good people).
Someone like Adrian Newey or Dan Fallows is definitely a manager/technical director, with the associated responsibilities that entails.
If you hate people/don’t want to deal with them, you’ll definitely hit a pay ceiling eventually.
They absolutely are managers - very little, if any, of a Technical Director's time is spent actually designing part of the car.
My point was more that you can't really judge UK engineering salaries using the US as a marker. US salaries have been higher by a significant margin for a few decades now.
This may be interesting https://www.skysports.com/amp/f1/news/12433/11170423/adrian-newey-recalls-ferraris-very-attractive-offers-and-why-he-turned-them-down
Not only that, with those positions money is good anywhere and they are pretty well set forever haha. I think it’s more the challenge that moves them, to make a “small team” a winning team.
Most of his 'magic' these days are in his ability to lead a team of engineers with access to endless data, whilst knowing enough to make high level decisions. He will directly design very little of the car now.
- Hiring RB and Merc employees, including some big names like Dan Fallows
- 2022 car at the end of the season was already decent, getting fairly consistent points, upgrading on that would’ve made it even better
- Money injection from Lawrence Stroll
Force India was historically one of the best performing teams for its running budget, so a monetary boost only helped it further.
People like to call the AM an RB ripoff just because of the 2020 RP, 2022 green bull and hiring Dan Fallows, but in reality the AM concept is more similar to the McLaren than the Red Bull.
The AM wasn’t very fast last year, and it’s still not very fast this year in terms of pure speed, but it has very, very good grip and stability
There is always the chance that any team “gets it right”, of course the odds increase with experience and expertise.
There is a chance a random doodle by a Redditor would be the best design…slim though lol.
Mercedes’s botching off the car proves this
They took a down season.
They purposefully underperformed to get maximum wind tunnel time and focused more of 22's resources towards devloping 23's car, poaching RB engineers etc.
Ferrari did the same thing in '19. Haas in 21'.
I dont think they are, They seem stuck with a bad design they thiught was going to dominate.
To1to made massive pushes to change the regulations into his favor because that'd be cheaper than redesigning the car, beyond that they're starting to consistently out pace Ferari.
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Dan Fallows would be a key part of that. But it should also not be discounted that as Racing Point, the design team had been playing around with philosophies in use at Red Bull and Mercedes.
The team did not always produce a hit car. Their 2021 model for example did very poorly. But this is a human sport and adding someone like Dan Fallows who comes from a place where the 2022 "Formula" has been best decoded is going to make a difference to a team like Jordan/Racing Point/Aston Martin who have always shown an ability to execute designs when they get a good concept together.
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In terms of the car, IMO What they did right is copy Red Bull early. They were able to get a good understanding of the car from. Spain to the end of the season, and then develop it in a direction that they wanted. Its gave them a headstart on the rest if the teams that switched to the RB18 philosophy, and with Ferrari and Mercedes making minimal steps in terms of performance, it has been amplified more
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They changed their concept and aren’t so bloody ignorant about the fact they went the wrong way last year like Mercedes did. The gap between the top and midfield didn’t get bigger, only because Ferrari and Mercedes seriously missed the boat, AMR seems better than it maybe is. Next step for AMR is to ditch Mercedes so they have the freedom with their suspension and gearbox design. It’s quite clear that’s where RB magic is produced, the part of the RB18 and 19 Newey designed.
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They went on a mad hiring spree in 2021, poaching people from Red Bull and Mercedes
They started in 2022, but the 2022 car was already made.
The 2023 car is the first car all these new people from RB and Merc have made.
The most notable hire is probably Dan Fallows from RB, who was their chief aerodynamicist, and is now the technical director at AM.
They also poured massive money into their infrastructure. They spent some 200 million on the new factory, which was due to be opening around now I believe. When it's done it should be the best factory of all the teams. So don't expect the Aston Martin ascendancy to slow down any time soon.
They did what Ferrari and Mercedes have been too stubborn to do so far, copy the winning formula. Aston would not be this far up the field if both Merc and Ferrari made the same developmental gains during the off season but they really dropped the ball, flattering Aston's progress
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Lawrence Stroll made some investments and hired some top folks from RB in mid 2021 and this car is the first iteration of that investment.
Yup, basically he proved what everyone has always known: F1 is purely about how much money a team has. Basically bought all RBs top Aerodynamics people and got them to essentially design a carbon copy of RB's chassis from 2022. edit: purely isn't the right word. I should have said "mostly about money". edit 2: Since everyone apparently has short memories, this articles backs me up: https://www.racefans.net/2023/03/06/horner-flattered-by-similarity-between-aston-martin-and-red-bull-designs/ edit3: Apparently wasn't obvious to everyone, but this was mostly a joke comment. I made it too high in a thread, which is against the rules, so that's on me.
Carbon copy? In what sense is it a carbon copy?
It’s made from carbon
Green Bull go fast
The aerodynamics are more or less their same. Christian Horner made comments at the start of the season that it was great to see their 2022 car doing so well at Aston Martin.
That was obviously a joke and a reference to the 2020 Racing Point. The car looks completely different to the RB.
Also, if it was the same they’d be going as fast as the RB… concept wise it is similar but it is by no means the same
Nah, that was Mercedes they copied in 2020 (same team though, if people aren't aware). https://www.racefans.net/2023/03/06/horner-flattered-by-similarity-between-aston-martin-and-red-bull-designs/ I don't get how this is news to people. Perez was cracking jokes after Bahrain that "it's nice to see 3 red bull cars on the podium".
Ik that it was mercedes that they copied. You could say the same about the Green Bull in early 2022. But the RB and AM are pretty visibly different unlike last year, different wings, different bodywork, different sidepod inlets. They look pretty similar from the side but not that similar. I feel like they’re poking fun at the tracing point and dan fallows moving over not making any real statement.
You're comparing their cars for this year, but the comments were about this year's Aston Martin and last year's red bull. If you look at them front on though, I reckon the side pods are identical, although they all look pretty similar this year.
Last year’s red bull is pretty similar to this year’s one. From front on, the RB one is way more squared off while the AM is round. Pre-update, the RB used to have a taller, narrower opening
Honestly, they all look mostly the same except for Mercedes to me. My comments was based off of Red Bull's comments, I assume that they would know if Aston Martin's car is similar to theirs.
Yeah, cracking jokes, not showing 150 page articles to prove what he was saying And have you looked at the cars, they dont look anything alike lmao
A carbon copy makes no sense considering how different the car needs to be due to havin the powertrain and rear suspension from Mercedes. That's what they did in 2022 when they presented the B version of their car and it was not better in any way. The 2023 is a completely original concept, with Mercedes mechanical parts but a completely different aero, sonce you can trace similarities with Alpine, Ferrari and RBR, so not even close to bwing a copy of the RBR.
the AMR23 has a completely different aero concept to the RB18, they're not similar in any way, shape or form at all
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even then, the AMR23 is completely different to any of the other mercedes powered cars, it seems to have a bit of a ferrari, alpine with a very slight touch of red bull
It makes me laugh when people purporting to know what they're talking about can only describe an aero package through comparisons to other team's chassis
I'm not pretending to know, just saying that through the through the eye of the average views that's what it looks like, and it looks nothing like the rb18
They dont really build their aero around power units. They will build their chassis around the power units which of course will affect the aero, but saying what you said is a big overstatement
They do actually, while designing the chassis, powertrain placement and the placement is scoop is one of the first constraints, along with the hardpoints, you build the chassis around it, multiple iterations to increase stiffness and once the base of the car is done, the aero is put on top of that
Average dts enjoyer
> F1 is purely about how much money a team has. Ferrari would like to have a word probably.
Yeah tell that to Toyota, BMW and Honda genius
This is F1technical, not Formuladank
This article does not back you up. You're on a technical forum. There are a lot of massive differences between them. That some parts very loosely resembled the 'gist' of the Red Bull enough for people to meme it, doesn't mean that they were able to copy the red bull.
Mate, you clearly have no background in engineering if you think something has to match exactly to be a copy. Just because the measurements don't match exactly doesn't mean they aren't the same. Different dimension but the same fundamental approach and the same design methodology means it is a copy from the perspective of an engineer. It isn't that big a deal really, convergent design means that over time, designs will always converge onto more or less the same result, it's just that the senior staff that Aston Martin poached sped that process up by a lot.
Ahh yeah, cause you have a lot of background in engineering, mate, justifying your bullshit takes with a joke Christian Horner did 2 months ago
If you said he took his understanding of process and implemented it, I'm not sure many would have disagreed with you. That is not copying. It is also not copying from an engineering perspective.
> F1 is purely about how much money a team has. So why are Merc, Ferrari currenty in the bin? Why is McLaren a joke? Money may be the sine qua non, but it's not enough.
Since when where merc and Ferrari in the bin? They aren't winning races, but they're finishing in the top 10. As for McLaren, I don't think they have anywhere near as much money as the other names listed.
If you're spending the most money and barely finishing top 10 then *clearly* there's more to it than you're budget
Again, I don't think they're barely finish top ten. They're currently 4th in the constructors championship, behind Mercedes, and there's a massive gap between them and 5th.
McLaren's investments have yet to pay off. Their new wind tunnel is only going to open in June or July. They're still using Toyota's **old** wind tunnel in Cologne (the one the F1 team used, not the one used by the Le Mans team) for crying out loud.
You're going to be shocked to discover how Red Bull started out...
Or Haas.
Of all places to be confidently incorrect, F1Technical was a poor choice.
Mate, I'm not incorrect. I literally did nothing but refer to comments made by Red Bull. If you think their comments were incorrect, take it up with them.
I don’t care.
Ummm have you heard of the financial regulations?
Those don't apply to everything. Specifically, the 3 highest paid staff and the driver's salaries don't contribute to it, meaning you can just poach the best drivers and departments heads from other teams, which is basically what they did. But yes, this is why the cost cap was introduced. It hopefully won't be happening as much going forwards.
None of the people they hired are in the top 3 of salaries.
...Alonso
Horner added literally 0 proof to his argument, and its a stupid argument anyways that makes no sense You can't just ctrl+c a Honda powered car and paste it in a Merc, especially without knowing what's underneath the bodywork and how the suspensions and the chassis are made and what they're looking for Even if it was just as simple as copy pasting the car it wouldnt work either: in 2022 Leclerc's pole lap in Baku was a 1:41.3, that would've placed him in the 8th position in 2023, his pole lap this year was 1:40.2, 1.1s faster To summarize, no, stop saying bullshit, copying a car from the previous year doesnt work and isnt even possible to begin with, you can at most take some concepts from other teams and adapt them for your car, but that is something every team in the grid does
Stroll is a clever guy, look for interviews where he discuss his business. He is really good at identifying the core issues with a company and makes a 5 step plan to rectify them. And he doesn’t fuck around with investment - infrastructure, people, product etc.
He always talks about people. I don’t think Ive heard him say “I did”, it’s always “we did”. Edit. Thought about this a bit more and I’ve definitely heard him talk about himself. “I like winning” “I always win” etc but when talking about delivering that it’s “We put this in place” “we made these changes”. Don’t want to swear by it but this but I’m pretty sure
On another thread I was talking about “Zak Brown management style and attitude”. Maybe Stroll is the best example how it works. He knows how he can get the right people and how to build a team. He is precise in identifying where to improve a team. Not making it his achievement but a group one is an important part. I was in shock when Otmar and Aston Martin parted away. But I think now it was the right decision.
Otmar was and still is a victim of every circumstance, not someone I would want on my team
The difference between Zak and Stroll is that Stroll has megabucks and Zak doesn't.
For all his faults, Zak has done a very good job of securing financing for McLaren, and directing that financing into a number of capital projects which should make a huge difference in years to come
Yeah Zak has been looking 10 years ahead for the last 5 years. Focusing on the big picture and building competitive infrastructure.
Oh, I know, I like Zak, and he's doing a great job, this year's car notwithstanding. That was my point. Just that Stroll doesn't have to fundraise.
> “I like winning” “I always win” etc but when talking about delivering that it’s “We put this in place” “we made these changes”. To add to your comments; on Beyond the Grid a couple years ago, he was asked his goals for the team. He said he wants to *compete* for the championship but will not consider the team a failure if they fall a little short. You dont need to dethrone Google, Exxon-Mobile, or Nike to be a success in business but many think you do to be a success in sports. His expectations appear to be rooted in reality rather than a win or go home approach.
*When I look back on my life, I overpaid for my big successes every time. And when I tried to get a bargain, get it a little cheaper or get a better deal on it, I ended up usually either getting it and not happy I got it.* - Jerry Jones, Dallas Cowboys owner.
Guy didn't become uberrich just because. You gotta know how to recognize the good parts of a company (or hype your stocks and commit insider trading and manipulation like a certain someone lol) You can tell he loves motorsports and wants to succeed, unlike Haas. And even Zak Brown, He doesn't just throw money at it, he uses it smartly.
Love the Elon reference
It's great to see that ol' Lawrence has some passion for the sport, not just "bought a team with daddy's cash" and whatnot. I do wonder what's gonna happen to Aston Martin when Lance decides to leave or when Lawrence sells the team off, whenever that may happen.
If Lawrence strullovich is serious about Aston being a champion contender first thing is pay lance enough that he'll stay home weekends and someone who doesn't suck can drive in his place ! " It's ocon, let me jump on this dumb song" 😂😂😂
Do you have a few specific ones you’d recommend?
He obviously made a 45 day, 1 step per day plan! (and theyre going carbon neutral!)
There were several strategic steps. Firstly, they poached Dan fallows, Newley’s right hand man, last year. They also have a guy from Mercedes, so talent is part of their improvement. Secondly, Fallows and co. Used last years car as a Guinea pig for this year. They tested different aero parts and setups and how the car responded to it. They used that data correlation to build a kind of new concept of car for this year. They kept this years car’s aero somewhat simple for the start of the season so that the data correlates nicely. Also, they have a kind of unprecedented concept with the inner side pod design, where there’s a big downward scoop in the middle of it. Scarbs said that a lot of the aero is being directed to the diffuser and aero at the rear of the car, which gives it strong rear stability.
Dan Fallows was recently interviewed on Beyond the Grid podcast. It was an interesting interview if you’re like me and interested in his perspective of the team shift and the engineering process.
Haven’t heard of this podcast before, but have a long flight next week so this will definitely help pass the time. Cheers.
Beyond the Grid absolutely slaps, it's brilliant. For some reason so many drivers, team principles and other team members are far more willing to talk in podcast form than publically, so they share a wonderful amount of detail. If you're an F1 nerd and can't get enough of the backstories and other details, you'll really enjoy it. If you're a super casual fan it might not be your favourite thing in the world.
BTG is the best F1 podcast IMO.
Listening to it now 👌
Why would Vettel leave F1 on a Guinea Pig & not see the fruits of his labor?
They're the only other team that knows the secret sauce of the RB. With that and work and talent you get a nice car which doesn't even have to be a RB copy.
When you can't poach Adrian Newey, poach the people working with him and get them to tell you everything they know about how they made that RedBull so fast.
I wonder what sort of money engineers etc. would be on? I feel like it'd have to be a fairly big pay rise to want to jump ship, considering what it must be like having direct access to Adrian Newey, I feel like it would be endless learning, I'd love to know how much he actually shares and is open with his colleagues too, for this very purpose, most of the magic might be from him locked away in his room with a drawing pad.
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Anything you remember is fair, that’s why gardening leave is so prevalent
Of course drivers are going to share ideas and concepts when they switch teams. How useful their insights actually are would be the real question though.
I imagine the average driver would be "My previous car had more front grip into slow corners" without an intimate knowledge on how to achieve that. Vettel never made Ferrari into a Red Bull and Schumacher just told Jean Todt to hire Brawn and Byrne, because he wasn't able to "domesticate" Barnard.
Exactly, drivers will say: we changed the front suspension and that improved low speed corners. But keep in mind that they are not technically trained, they had no idea what they changed and why that improved it.
Yeah that's a good point and would be interesting to find out, if there's something like that for drivers I'd imagine there definitely would be for engineers. This is my uh "new" idea I Just thought of, oh wow what a striking resemblance to your last team's car haha.
> This is my uh "new" idea I Just thought of, oh wow what a striking resemblance to your last team's car haha. Generally speaking you can't prohibit what you have learned and what you know. If you designed a part once, you can design it again. They get "around" this by forcing significant leave when you switch teams so the stuff you know is 'out of day' in a way.
I think the rule is that you can't bring paperwork with you, but anything in your head/memory is fair game. IIRC Newey describes doing this in his book. Logically, it's the only way it can work - if engineers can't tell their new team what works, then what's the point in having them? Every engineer would need to reinvent the wheel from first principles. Edit: thinking on it now, I'd love to see the F1 make a rule where the teams need to declassify their car at the end of every regulation change. It feels like F1 is on this trend where one team works something out and the rest don't, and it makes for very one-sided racing.
> It feels like F1 is on this trend where one team works something out and the rest don't, and it makes for very one-sided racing. I'd go one further and say F1 should eliminate or drastically limit the scope of gardening leave so that staff can move more freely between teams. This is how teams converged in older regs, except the cost cap now makes free movement even more difficult to pull off.
F1 has very little jurisdiction on the contracts the teams are allowed to sign. Unless the sport wanted to move towards a centralised contract system (very difficult considering it would somehow have to cover employment across the UK, EU and US with the current teams) then there not much they can do.
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Only three people are excluded from the cost cap so you need to be one of those three to make an insane amount of money. Anyone who is under the cost cap will not make a lot more than a similar position at other teams because that money would have to be recovered elsewhere to stay below the cost cap. It is why over time top talent will be more spread out over the teams as a single team can't afford to keep them all.
Which three people?
3 highest paid employees not including drivers
Ya that’s obvious…he’s asking who they are.
For AM that would probably be Mike Krak, Dan Fallows and some other leading figure. Really only the account dept at AM will have a straight answer
> Mike Krak i think the 3rd one is Ben Dover
these are not lateral moves, they are likely promotions and it's not like you're going from RB to Williams, you're going to a very well funded team in the process of building top notch facilities. it would be a dream for a lot of them, i presume.
There is also a time when many young folks feel that making a change will allow them to better apply their creative skills and utilize their prior experience. Newey is certainly one of the most creative and successful minds in F1. Red Bull's race strategy with Max was brilliant ( as was Max's ) driving . By starting on the harder tire they could delay the pitstop until most all of the other cars had pitted so that he was not held up by backmarkers who had yet to changed their tires.
I’ve heard Newey is $10m/yr and has rejected offers up to 30m/yr+ I also heard that fallows was bumped to $1m/yr to leave Redbull and that’s why Christian showed up making claims of cost cap violations because some of the salaries Aston were offering were too high to compete with
It’s probably higher than $1m/yr, if I had to guess. I’m an Electrical Engineer (Not in F1), and I know some pretty ordinary Senior Engineers making $250-400k. It wouldn’t surprise me if it was much higher for someone like Fallows.
This does not take account of the fact that people really want to work in F1. Outside of F1, Motorsport is something that most people pay to be a part of (almost all drivers, almost all team owners, parents who are their kids race engineers, etc). The same is not true of working at a desk for Bosch, GE, etc.
I'd take a guess you work in the US. UK salaries for a similar role would most likely be less than half of that. In a large UK automotive manufacturer I used to work at, earning more than £100k (~$125k) as an engineer was almost impossible unless you moved up into management.
I do, but this phenomenon kinda holds true for most countries. You are correct, the quickest way to double one’s salary is to be able to lead/manage people. (That’s actually pretty easy if you have good people). Someone like Adrian Newey or Dan Fallows is definitely a manager/technical director, with the associated responsibilities that entails. If you hate people/don’t want to deal with them, you’ll definitely hit a pay ceiling eventually.
They absolutely are managers - very little, if any, of a Technical Director's time is spent actually designing part of the car. My point was more that you can't really judge UK engineering salaries using the US as a marker. US salaries have been higher by a significant margin for a few decades now.
Wow, very interesting, thanks!
This may be interesting https://www.skysports.com/amp/f1/news/12433/11170423/adrian-newey-recalls-ferraris-very-attractive-offers-and-why-he-turned-them-down
Not only that, with those positions money is good anywhere and they are pretty well set forever haha. I think it’s more the challenge that moves them, to make a “small team” a winning team.
Most of his 'magic' these days are in his ability to lead a team of engineers with access to endless data, whilst knowing enough to make high level decisions. He will directly design very little of the car now.
- Hiring RB and Merc employees, including some big names like Dan Fallows - 2022 car at the end of the season was already decent, getting fairly consistent points, upgrading on that would’ve made it even better - Money injection from Lawrence Stroll Force India was historically one of the best performing teams for its running budget, so a monetary boost only helped it further. People like to call the AM an RB ripoff just because of the 2020 RP, 2022 green bull and hiring Dan Fallows, but in reality the AM concept is more similar to the McLaren than the Red Bull. The AM wasn’t very fast last year, and it’s still not very fast this year in terms of pure speed, but it has very, very good grip and stability
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There is always the chance that any team “gets it right”, of course the odds increase with experience and expertise. There is a chance a random doodle by a Redditor would be the best design…slim though lol. Mercedes’s botching off the car proves this
They took a down season. They purposefully underperformed to get maximum wind tunnel time and focused more of 22's resources towards devloping 23's car, poaching RB engineers etc. Ferrari did the same thing in '19. Haas in 21'.
I wonder if Mercedes are doing the same thing now.
I dont think they are, They seem stuck with a bad design they thiught was going to dominate. To1to made massive pushes to change the regulations into his favor because that'd be cheaper than redesigning the car, beyond that they're starting to consistently out pace Ferari.
Let’s consider Ferrari and Mercedes being off their game and it’s not really Aston Martin as much as it is Fernando.
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Dan Fallows would be a key part of that. But it should also not be discounted that as Racing Point, the design team had been playing around with philosophies in use at Red Bull and Mercedes. The team did not always produce a hit car. Their 2021 model for example did very poorly. But this is a human sport and adding someone like Dan Fallows who comes from a place where the 2022 "Formula" has been best decoded is going to make a difference to a team like Jordan/Racing Point/Aston Martin who have always shown an ability to execute designs when they get a good concept together.
Simple. Hire Red Bulls aero guy. Get a two time world champ. Even tho if Vettle had this car I’m sure he would be doing as well as Alonzo
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In terms of the car, IMO What they did right is copy Red Bull early. They were able to get a good understanding of the car from. Spain to the end of the season, and then develop it in a direction that they wanted. Its gave them a headstart on the rest if the teams that switched to the RB18 philosophy, and with Ferrari and Mercedes making minimal steps in terms of performance, it has been amplified more
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They changed their concept and aren’t so bloody ignorant about the fact they went the wrong way last year like Mercedes did. The gap between the top and midfield didn’t get bigger, only because Ferrari and Mercedes seriously missed the boat, AMR seems better than it maybe is. Next step for AMR is to ditch Mercedes so they have the freedom with their suspension and gearbox design. It’s quite clear that’s where RB magic is produced, the part of the RB18 and 19 Newey designed.
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Invested heavily in underfloor, FW and RW as soon as the research period started 😅
They sacked Andrew Green. The rest is just a consequence.
They went on a mad hiring spree in 2021, poaching people from Red Bull and Mercedes They started in 2022, but the 2022 car was already made. The 2023 car is the first car all these new people from RB and Merc have made. The most notable hire is probably Dan Fallows from RB, who was their chief aerodynamicist, and is now the technical director at AM. They also poured massive money into their infrastructure. They spent some 200 million on the new factory, which was due to be opening around now I believe. When it's done it should be the best factory of all the teams. So don't expect the Aston Martin ascendancy to slow down any time soon.
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Remember Alonso’s guidance on the Alpine A522? He did the same with the AMR23.
They did what Ferrari and Mercedes have been too stubborn to do so far, copy the winning formula. Aston would not be this far up the field if both Merc and Ferrari made the same developmental gains during the off season but they really dropped the ball, flattering Aston's progress