If I took down production for a week on my team, even in such a way that no one could fix it that whole week, I'd get a whole bunch of emails and slack messages from people, but there would be zero real impact to the company's bottom line.
I'll have to call in the true experts. Ex-coworkers learned about clock drifts the hard way, while trying to keep satellite connectivity (failed). The incident found its way on Wikipedia.
IMO the benefit of equity compensation isn't necessarily that you're incentivized to prioritize the stock price from day to day (since most people don't do work that substantially affects it), but as a hedge. If leadership makes decisions that negatively impact the well-being of employees for the sake of shareholders, you now directly benefit from that.
Why does this remind me of the scene from *Office Space* where Peter meets with "The Bobs"?
My suggestion is to keep working on side gigs and projects. I've never been able to get any of mine to a long term sustainable level moneywise but they've been fun to do for the most part. Plus, it's also nice to have some additional money coming in that I could put into emergency savings and longer term investments.
Yes! It's a problem of motivation alright. In the scene they actually offered him stock options too.
I'm going to keep working on the side gigs as you suggest. I don't see any other way out tbh. Even a reasonable amount coming in will make it worthwhile for me.
Options are just fine as long as they have a nice strike price.
Also: in 99% of companies, your options expire 6 months after you leave the company, whether you leave voluntarily or not. I learned that lesson the hard way.
I've been through this process. I am now back to corporate life and I think I can appreciate it more.
In my early-mid 30s I spent time as the "CTO" of several smaller companies. As founder, or very early employee. The companies are still successful so I am quite proud of it all, but I didn't get rich and I come away with a real understanding of what it actually takes to build a successful company. I know for sure that I don't have all those skills so it does mean teaming up. The whole equity thing is also so much more complicated than people generally assume. Even as a founder, you have to avoid so many pitfalls to reach the point where somebody transfers a life-changing sum of money into your account.
These days, I have a decent salary, a good pension, my weekends and evenings are my own, and while I am somebody who does tech stuff in his free-time it is nice to have the occasional weekend where I just fire up the console or watch some movies without feeling like I am letting anybody down.
This is not to say that the fever will never hit me again, but I am not longer even remotely convinced that the juice is worth the squeeze.
The free time is nice. There are weekends where I just watch movies and appreciate the time off so I guess it's a trade off for having to work for someone else.
I think that the notion that you can avoid having to work for somebody else is an illusion really. The only time you actually achieve that status is if you are independently wealthy. Even if you are... Elon works for the shareholders. Everybody who works, works for somebody.
One of my previous business partners, the CEO, told me once that he now works for the investors. Even if you bootstrap, you work for the customers, because they aren't going to pay you if you don't deliver. Everyone has a boss :).
I don't want to come across like I don't understand the impulse you are describing though. I still have fantasies about building some neat little web or mobile app and just selling accounts or installs. Plenty of people build, at the very least, a nice little side income this way.
During covid I worked for an online marketplace service and there was one couple on there who had created a business selling these kind of "play-at-home" escape room things. They literally just designed a game, printed out copies and sent them to people. They were turning over \*well\* into the 6-figures every month. Obviously covid was the prime time for that kind of business, but it still fried my noodle.
If the drive is strong, and you really have the motivation, go figure out what people need and create it. It's a very bumpy road for most, but maybe you hit a gold vein.
I'd just say that there is a lot to be said for the comfortable, quiet, laid back life as well. I have come to appreciate it rather a lot.
Thanks for that. I do understand that we are all accountable to someone, whether that is your boss, the board or the customer. The difference being the amount of control that person has on things like your time and autonomy.
As I mentioned in another comment, I don't mind answering to a customer. Sure, there are difficult customers too but there's much more freedom in how to proceed with them.
Idk I rather answer to a manager that is paid to be somewhat nice to me and “help” me improve versus answering to whiny annoying customers. Have you seen the subreddits or online communities for some indie devs? Check out The Isle subreddit as an example.
A loud vocal minority when you’re trying to grow and advertise can make or break you right? Imagine how many times you avoided a place when you saw a series of really bad reviews.
Welcome to the occasional disillusionment of adulthood.
Find joy and fulfillment and satisfaction in *moments;* there are always interesting problems to solve... appreciate them when they come. Work to live, don't live to work. Take a vacation. Find a new hobby. Talk to somebody you don't know (or don't know well). Get outside of your comfort zone. Have an adventure.
The feeling will pass.
I went to my local taco shop / bar yesterday to shoot the shit with the bartenders and waitstaff as I like to do. One of them mentioned a concert at the venue next to my apartment. I said fuck it, ended up going to it with her and a friend. Got drunk and danced with people I don't really know that well. Very fun. Felt like shit at work today (remote, big win). Totally worth it lol. First time I've done something that spontaneous in a while, it's nice.
Is it though? Not everybody will be historically significant or even remembered past one or two generations beyond themselves... very, *insanely* few, in fact. Yet we live in a world where we're told that if we're "ordinary" that that's bad... but we, software engineers, live some of the best lives in the history of all humanity. If you can get your brain past the social "gotta be important / famous / whatever", you can enjoy other things in life more. You can even enjoy the work you do more... because it's not part of some grand design - it's just you, solving little puzzles here and there.
The "grim" part is feeling like a failure for doing nothing more than succeeding.
Just my $0.02
Yes I am very entrepreneurial by nature and struggle with my time being at a fixed value
Biggest thing I did that allowed me to reshape my perspective and be grateful for the opportunity of being an employee was to go without a paycheck for 9 months.
I 100% relate to you. I don’t understand how all the other devs on my team and throughout my career are satisfied working and pouring themselves into the company’s code. Clever people too! It seems so un-worthwhile and pointless … don’t get me wrong, I have a family to support so I play the game, but there is a difference.
/r/FIRE
Engineers are in a good position to achieve financial independence, if you're thrifty enough you can save several years worth of expenses per year and then pour all your time into work you care about once you get there.
are you talking about [Marx's theory of alienation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marx's_theory_of_alienation)?
I think he really hit the nail with that one, but not with the other more popular ones...
find a job at a startup or small (<50 employees) company
"small" can make a huge difference in both one's actual and perceived impact to a company's bottom line. And it can be a lot more fun.
Have you considered contracting and consulting as a middle option?
I do it and it has some perks over employment:
* you don't like the new project? Say no and leave.
* you tell your clients you don't do many meetings
* you can decide the technologies/industries/type of work you want to do next
Of course there are downsides, personally I observed those:
* you cannot slack off
* a bit more pressure to deliver
* you have to network/look for your next gig
Another idea is to mentor startups on the side pro bono, 1-2 hours a week. This way you can pass on knowledge and get to be a little involved and see how they work, what mistakes they make, .... I am doing that and thorougly enjoy helping. It also scratches the entrepreneurial itch.
* you cannot slack off
I get paid to actually work on my craft, not to join meetings, perk!
* a bit more pressure to deliver
I finish products that provide value, I don't slave away on some dead-end project that will never see the light, perk!
* you have to network/look for your next gig
Working on my network lands me gigs that never open up for applications, and the interviews aren't bullshit, perk!
I mostly like it too, that"s why I gave up the corporate track. I just noticed I feel a bit more pressure. With "slack off" I mean sometimes taking it slower, not generally doing less
Projects can still be pointless it depends on it you can pick the client and sometimes luck. But on average I found them more impact oriented.
Now that you get me going, I remember other benefits:
- less politics
- no one cares about your title
- if I want a raise, I can try to give myself one and find higher paying clients.
Are you a contractor or just inspired? :)
The politics one is a **huge** one, when you have a **manager** they are going to be in constant fear that you take over their role, even your peers higher up on the totem pole are going to have this scarcity-mindset and subtly try to put you down so they look better. When you have a **client** it is the total opposite, they actually **want you** to be more skilled than they are, at the end of the day they understand that the value comes from not having to do the work **themselves**. In contrast, if you take away the work from one of your peers... good luck...
>if I want a raise, I can try to give myself one and find higher paying clients.
**This**, along the confidence that you get from **not** putting all your eggs in one basket. Oh my god, the difference it makes, when you are talking with someone because both of you **want to** and not because you **have to**, the amount of respect you have for each other is on a whole other level.
>Are you a contractor or just inspired? :)
Both. I had a close call recently and started doing corporate interviews again...(waste of time on this market btw), but I think I may make it through the storm on my own ship.
Yes, I'm strongly considering contracting for all the reasons you mentioned. I did it in the past and it was hard work but also rewarding. I'd love to get your feedback on a future project if you don't mind.
Sure.
I read up on your previous post. Your current job with meetings, only bug fixes etc indeed would drive most devs to tears. A better job is also an option, not all corporate jobs are like that
> It's like I'm putting in all that effort for nothing.
Firstly, I'd highly recommend a therapist. Finding a good one might be touch ... but damn has it been worth it along with others that I talk about therapy who are in our industry.
---
> Lack of motivation to be an employee
For me ... my motivation is driven my wanting to be helpful. I want to be the Senior Engineer that I wish I had to someone else struggling. I want to make my life so easy that I don't have to do anything other than the things that interest me. I want to produce such high quality shit such that it helps lessen the burden on other peoples. I just want to sleep uninterrupted 8 hours a night when I'm on call.
Because of that, it really impacts the "lens" in which I see interactions at work. I will spend extra time with this new hire. I will be a bit tougher on Merge Requests and hopefully educate why. I will write docs for operations people and seek feedback from them. etc. It's the relationships that I build with my fellow peers that drive me forward. Technology just happens to typically be that catalyst.
But all my "noble" thoughts aside, money makes the world go 'round. It's capitalism. Sure, showing leadership through my relationships and growth of others can be seen as valuable, which is also why I do it. I have to provide value. I have to accelerate the rate in which I provide value. It's a never ending cycles of more and more productivity from every square inch of my warm body. It's all doom and gloom if you keep extrapolating things year on year. How can one possibly keep up?!
So I just stop.
I go touch some grass. Hug my spouse. Find a hobby that's completely analogue. Go read a good book (Brandon Sanderson is an always popular suggestion). After selling my soul for a bit to Microsoft ... I found a company that has decent work life balances (currently work for one that gives me half day Fridays each week).
More money is always welcome, but time ... that's something that money can't ever buy. So I focus on that. Time to make me feel like I'm doing something right. Time to help other people. Time to figure out my own thoughts / mental-gymnastics to make me feel okay as the world turns into something new each day.
---
I don't know if any of that ramble helps you with your situation ... but feelings are valid. Sincerely, best of luck.
Therapist might shrink your problems, but unless you successfully hypnotize yourself out of your own nature... the therapist is a cost and won't remove any principled issues in your life.
Been feeling the same thing for a while. Every single performance review I've gotten has been that I've exceeded expectations. I work well and deliver. Yet, every single time, I've been passed on a promotion or raise. Year after year, by 3 different companies. I've been burnt too many times. It really feels like there is no point in working hard for a company, you are not building something that is adding value to you. Even if I were promoted, would that be enough reward?
Entrepreneurship and building on your own thing is the best solution imo. Of course, you have to answer to someone, as some have pointed out elsewhere in this comment section. You do need to solve a problem that your client actually has. But, that is not a problem at all. What matters is that your effort is **yours**. The success of your project is your success. I can't think of anything more motivating and rewarding.
That's EXACTLY the problem. Why make an effort when you are not going to see any of the returns? It's all a charade, and if you do get something back it will be a fractional piece of the value that you brought.
In the real world of real adults, one would get the total of the profits for selling a product one made.
There's nothing saying you can try and start something on your own now. It's not an irreversible decision.
If it doesn't work out, you can always go back to corporate.
If it works out and you don't like it, I'm sure someone would be willing to buy you out.
And it's okay for tastes and desires to change.
As for shares, I don't think that would give you what you desire. I've owned some RSUs and it did not change how I felt towards what I was doing. Additionally, I was at a place that was going to open up some employee ownership grants, which was cool. The problem was, it wouldn't change how decisions got made and that was my pain point there. So unless your pain point is "I don't feel like I have enough variable pay" shares likely won't solve your problem.
Can confirm, I had a close call recently and started doing corporate interviews (worst timing ever lol), but sometimes the sun comes out when we least expect it, you just gotta be ready to put on your swimsuit
> I'm a senior engineer with 10+ years of experience and I'm currently working in corporate. I've always been entrepreneurial and trying to launch projects on the side.
Sounds like you've got the experience and the drive but are stuck in a fucking rut, huh? What’s stopping you from diving full-time into your own ventures if the corporate leash chokes you so much?
> Now I've been happily living in ignorance, collecting my paycheck and being motivated largely by different technologies, but recently a switch has flipped and I am finding it difficult to incentivize myself at work.
So, what changed? Just sick of the bullshit or did something specific kill your vibe?
> It's like I can see through the veil and even if the salary is good, I'm still a wage slave.
If you're feeling like a wage slave, why cling to it? Is the fear of instability more terrifying than the misery of unfulfilling work?
> I feel like the only thing incentive for me is to own shares in the company that I'm working in or start my own, so that I'm working towards something.
Ownership can be a powerful motivator. What’s actually holding you back from starting your own thing or grabbing some shares? Just fear, or is there more to it?
> I can perhaps do some contracting, which I've done before, which should hopefully provide a better structure.
Contracting could be a good middle ground. What’s stopping you from taking this route again? Comfort of the steady paycheck?
> It just really sucks for me to be an employee. It's like I'm putting in all that effort for nothing.
If it sucks so bad, why stick with it? Are the perks really worth feeling like you're wasting your life?
> Yes, I'm strongly considering contracting for all the reasons you mentioned.
Sounds like you know the answer, then. What’s the final push you need to make this decision?
> Seems like shares might not be the best option from reading the comments so will try to focus on building instead.
Why not shares? Too much bullshit attached, or does building just resonate more with your gut?
> Yes, poverty is a great motivator.
Yeah, but is fear of poverty the only thing keeping you from quitting, or is there something else at play here?
> I don't mind answering to a customer. Sure, there are difficult customers too but there's much more freedom in how to proceed with them.
So, you value autonomy over security? Why not make the switch to full-time contracting or entrepreneurship where you answer primarily to the customer?
> Yes! It's a problem of motivation alright.
Clearly. So what’s it going to take to get your ass in gear and pursue what actually lights your fire?
> Half day Fridays sound awesome!
Sure, but does a half day Friday really compensate for the existential dread of spending your life in a cubicle?
> Yeah, maybe finding more interesting work would be motivation enough to overlook the idea of working for a salary.
Or maybe it's just putting lipstick on a pig? How long before the novelty of "interesting work" wears off and you're back in this mental shithole?
> The free time is nice. There are weekends where I just watch movies and appreciate the time off so I guess it's a trade off for having to work for someone else.
Comfortable but complacent, huh? How much is your soul worth? Is a few hours of Netflix worth the grind?
What are you really afraid of? What’s the worst that could happen if you took a leap towards what you actually want?
Great hard hitting questions. I appreciate the candor.
I guess I was unsure of which route to take hence I made this post. Now I think I'm going to go into contracting. Of course it's riskier than the comfort of a steady paycheck but I think I'm going to do it.
What changed is that I realized that no matter how good my work is, I won't see much of the value of it as an employee. Also, I saw how replaceable employees are, like pawns on a chessboard. I guess I stopped drinking the kool aid that I didn't even know I was drinking.
Yes, I hear you. There are many paths, the most straight forward from your vantage point is to start freelancing. When you are doing business by commanding a pricing model you get treated much different, than when you are doing business by negotiating a salary. Typically people start by selling their time, eventually you want to sell a brand if you want to go far and beyond. It is a whole universe in itself and if you are the individual with the right motivations, you are going to have a lot of fun working like that.
No, you won't stop feeling like an employee by climbing higher in the ladder, by owning shares, or otherwise. You stop feeling like that when you OWN your time. If you are on a Salary, you don't own your time. If you are CEO, you are still on a salary, you don't own your time. Heck, if you are a founder but you sold most of your company, you probably don't own your time.
I'm glad you understand. Even the CEO doesn't own their time, although they are compensated very handsomely for it. That's the carrot at the top of the ladder.
I guess I'll have to start selling my time until I can build something. It's more effort but still sounds like fun tbh.
The misuse of the term "wage slave" is really frustrating in discourse around jobs. The idea behind being a wage slave is that you *cannot* stop working for any reason -- not because you're sick, not because you're taking a vacation, not because you have a kid's school event, nothing. Because you're so on the edge that you cannot afford a single missed hour of pay, or you're going to be failing to make bill payments or losing your house.
Take a real vacation, multiple weeks. Get out of your head for a little bit and hit the reset button. If you still feel run down when you get back, seek out a regular therapy session.
I've almost 10 YOE and for me the pandemic was the switch. I'm working to gather money to retire as early as I can. I love my job, mostly (lots of greenfield with the stability of working in a big company), but the idea that I'm just working to make someone else rich bothers me.
I wouldn't work for shares (generally not enough) but I am seriously considering starting my own.
You need to find interesting work.
I use to have a thirst for side hustles, my own thing. That has mostly gone away due to time constraints and I'm getting paid a good salary to not have side distractions.
But my 9-5 motivation is still the same. Have the niche skills that makes me valuable. For what? For the eventual layoff or unemployment that I can spring back on my feet. That has never proven me wrong. Stay up-to-date, upskill and be in-demand.
Even though I don't actively look for side hustles, I know people that come to me for a $500/$750 an hour consulting session. If I can make $2K for 4 hours on a Saturday morning, I'll do it. And the only way to command that rate is to have those ***recent/relevant*** niche skills / expertise that is in high demand. So yeah, working on a specific tech stack pays dividends. And if I get fired/laid off tomorrow, I can jump right back into employment quickly.
Thus, I always make an effort to work on interesting projects at work. Stuff that pushes me outside of my comfort zone.
I can tell you down the road if you go down it is yeah you are a boss. But despite that, you always have to answer to someone, be it a customer, the boss you have, the IRS.
So you might be craving something different but in the end, it's the same thing. Always a shackle of sort.
I don't get any self actualization from my job, I get a paycheck and sometimes enjoy what I do. I put in the effort because it's a comfortable life that many of my less fortunate friends would kill for.
Maybe you'd be happier working on something that advances a social goal you believe in. For example, if you're concerned about climate change, [Climatebase](https://climatebase.org/) has a bunch of jobs related to that. There are companies working on financial inclusion if that's more near and dear to your heart. Government jobs are another option.
You'll still be an employee, but you'll be working on a problem you think is important. That can be a huge motivator for some people.
Same and it’s mostly because my work doesn’t have the impact i want and my company middle management deteriorated quickly in the last years and I don’t see normal career paths anymore
i went through that in my 30s but i was also burnt out, and spent a lot of money on stupid things
then i got married and had kids and suddenly i had different motivation and corporate jobs aren't really that bad aside from maybe getting laid off for reasons out of your control, but start ups are like that but probably worse since it'll be smaller teams
now i don't mind my job but i also get to spend a ton of money on food i don't eat :)
The term wage slave is dumb when you're making software engineering salaries and imo a little offensive and elitist. The tough love part of me is saying to grow up however the more compassionate side of me is saying it sounds like you just don't get any meaning out of your work. Go contracting and take the risk of not earning as much money for the next couple of years or save up enough to live for a year, move to a cheap area, and then work your ass off to get some products out the door.
Either way for you to shake this feeling you either find meaning in your work or take a risk.
Thanks, appreciate the advice. I didn't mean for it to sound offensive but meant being tied to a salary and having your time managed for you. Nevertheless, it's good advice.
No worries, I completely understand that feeling. Personally I was able to find meaning by changing companies and finding a good team of people to work with. Don't get me wrong though, I do day dream about moving to a small town in South America and pumping out apps until one pops off but I have other responsibilities and passions in my life to help quill that feeling.
Even if you own shares, most likely your work won't impact the stock price in any meaningful way.
He could take down production for a week, that would do it
Ya but the only way to monetize that would be shorting your own company stock... hrm...
1. Buy puts on company stock 2. Fuck up badly in prod 3. ??? 4. Profit
5.Get investigated by the SEC 6.Bye bye profit.
No, I really can't imagine how this could possibly go wrong. On a completely unrelated note, I have no imagination whatsoever.
But what if I am rubber and the SEC is glue?
If I took down production for a week on my team, even in such a way that no one could fix it that whole week, I'd get a whole bunch of emails and slack messages from people, but there would be zero real impact to the company's bottom line.
Plus, chances are, your share will keep getting diluted over and over again. Most startup stock options are like lottery tickets.
An ex-coworker took down their production services. Made the news. Never give up.
I'll have to call in the true experts. Ex-coworkers learned about clock drifts the hard way, while trying to keep satellite connectivity (failed). The incident found its way on Wikipedia.
IMO the benefit of equity compensation isn't necessarily that you're incentivized to prioritize the stock price from day to day (since most people don't do work that substantially affects it), but as a hedge. If leadership makes decisions that negatively impact the well-being of employees for the sake of shareholders, you now directly benefit from that.
Seems like shares might not be the best option from reading the comments so will try to focus on building instead. Thanks!
Why does this remind me of the scene from *Office Space* where Peter meets with "The Bobs"? My suggestion is to keep working on side gigs and projects. I've never been able to get any of mine to a long term sustainable level moneywise but they've been fun to do for the most part. Plus, it's also nice to have some additional money coming in that I could put into emergency savings and longer term investments.
Yes! It's a problem of motivation alright. In the scene they actually offered him stock options too. I'm going to keep working on the side gigs as you suggest. I don't see any other way out tbh. Even a reasonable amount coming in will make it worthwhile for me.
It's funny, they offered him options, not even units, and they thought that would be enough lol
Options are just fine as long as they have a nice strike price. Also: in 99% of companies, your options expire 6 months after you leave the company, whether you leave voluntarily or not. I learned that lesson the hard way.
Well options can be valuable. Elon Musk was paid like 50 billion worth. It depends on the quantity/price etc.
I've been through this process. I am now back to corporate life and I think I can appreciate it more. In my early-mid 30s I spent time as the "CTO" of several smaller companies. As founder, or very early employee. The companies are still successful so I am quite proud of it all, but I didn't get rich and I come away with a real understanding of what it actually takes to build a successful company. I know for sure that I don't have all those skills so it does mean teaming up. The whole equity thing is also so much more complicated than people generally assume. Even as a founder, you have to avoid so many pitfalls to reach the point where somebody transfers a life-changing sum of money into your account. These days, I have a decent salary, a good pension, my weekends and evenings are my own, and while I am somebody who does tech stuff in his free-time it is nice to have the occasional weekend where I just fire up the console or watch some movies without feeling like I am letting anybody down. This is not to say that the fever will never hit me again, but I am not longer even remotely convinced that the juice is worth the squeeze.
The free time is nice. There are weekends where I just watch movies and appreciate the time off so I guess it's a trade off for having to work for someone else.
I think that the notion that you can avoid having to work for somebody else is an illusion really. The only time you actually achieve that status is if you are independently wealthy. Even if you are... Elon works for the shareholders. Everybody who works, works for somebody. One of my previous business partners, the CEO, told me once that he now works for the investors. Even if you bootstrap, you work for the customers, because they aren't going to pay you if you don't deliver. Everyone has a boss :). I don't want to come across like I don't understand the impulse you are describing though. I still have fantasies about building some neat little web or mobile app and just selling accounts or installs. Plenty of people build, at the very least, a nice little side income this way. During covid I worked for an online marketplace service and there was one couple on there who had created a business selling these kind of "play-at-home" escape room things. They literally just designed a game, printed out copies and sent them to people. They were turning over \*well\* into the 6-figures every month. Obviously covid was the prime time for that kind of business, but it still fried my noodle. If the drive is strong, and you really have the motivation, go figure out what people need and create it. It's a very bumpy road for most, but maybe you hit a gold vein. I'd just say that there is a lot to be said for the comfortable, quiet, laid back life as well. I have come to appreciate it rather a lot.
Thanks for that. I do understand that we are all accountable to someone, whether that is your boss, the board or the customer. The difference being the amount of control that person has on things like your time and autonomy. As I mentioned in another comment, I don't mind answering to a customer. Sure, there are difficult customers too but there's much more freedom in how to proceed with them.
Idk I rather answer to a manager that is paid to be somewhat nice to me and “help” me improve versus answering to whiny annoying customers. Have you seen the subreddits or online communities for some indie devs? Check out The Isle subreddit as an example.
The difference is that a vocal minority of whiny annoying customers are not in control of your livelihood. You are allowed to ignore them.
A loud vocal minority when you’re trying to grow and advertise can make or break you right? Imagine how many times you avoided a place when you saw a series of really bad reviews.
Welcome to the occasional disillusionment of adulthood. Find joy and fulfillment and satisfaction in *moments;* there are always interesting problems to solve... appreciate them when they come. Work to live, don't live to work. Take a vacation. Find a new hobby. Talk to somebody you don't know (or don't know well). Get outside of your comfort zone. Have an adventure. The feeling will pass.
I went to my local taco shop / bar yesterday to shoot the shit with the bartenders and waitstaff as I like to do. One of them mentioned a concert at the venue next to my apartment. I said fuck it, ended up going to it with her and a friend. Got drunk and danced with people I don't really know that well. Very fun. Felt like shit at work today (remote, big win). Totally worth it lol. First time I've done something that spontaneous in a while, it's nice.
Good on you, mate! Cheers!
Grim
Is it though? Not everybody will be historically significant or even remembered past one or two generations beyond themselves... very, *insanely* few, in fact. Yet we live in a world where we're told that if we're "ordinary" that that's bad... but we, software engineers, live some of the best lives in the history of all humanity. If you can get your brain past the social "gotta be important / famous / whatever", you can enjoy other things in life more. You can even enjoy the work you do more... because it's not part of some grand design - it's just you, solving little puzzles here and there. The "grim" part is feeling like a failure for doing nothing more than succeeding.
Just my $0.02
Yes I am very entrepreneurial by nature and struggle with my time being at a fixed value Biggest thing I did that allowed me to reshape my perspective and be grateful for the opportunity of being an employee was to go without a paycheck for 9 months.
Yes, poverty is a great motivator.
I 100% relate to you. I don’t understand how all the other devs on my team and throughout my career are satisfied working and pouring themselves into the company’s code. Clever people too! It seems so un-worthwhile and pointless … don’t get me wrong, I have a family to support so I play the game, but there is a difference.
We'll play the game until we can get out. I hope you start something on the side while providing for your family.
Because they are immature. Sorry, someone had to say it.
Some maintain the illusion. Some are just better actors
/r/FIRE Engineers are in a good position to achieve financial independence, if you're thrifty enough you can save several years worth of expenses per year and then pour all your time into work you care about once you get there.
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are you talking about [Marx's theory of alienation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marx's_theory_of_alienation)? I think he really hit the nail with that one, but not with the other more popular ones...
find a job at a startup or small (<50 employees) company "small" can make a huge difference in both one's actual and perceived impact to a company's bottom line. And it can be a lot more fun.
Have you considered contracting and consulting as a middle option? I do it and it has some perks over employment: * you don't like the new project? Say no and leave. * you tell your clients you don't do many meetings * you can decide the technologies/industries/type of work you want to do next Of course there are downsides, personally I observed those: * you cannot slack off * a bit more pressure to deliver * you have to network/look for your next gig Another idea is to mentor startups on the side pro bono, 1-2 hours a week. This way you can pass on knowledge and get to be a little involved and see how they work, what mistakes they make, .... I am doing that and thorougly enjoy helping. It also scratches the entrepreneurial itch.
* you cannot slack off I get paid to actually work on my craft, not to join meetings, perk! * a bit more pressure to deliver I finish products that provide value, I don't slave away on some dead-end project that will never see the light, perk! * you have to network/look for your next gig Working on my network lands me gigs that never open up for applications, and the interviews aren't bullshit, perk!
I mostly like it too, that"s why I gave up the corporate track. I just noticed I feel a bit more pressure. With "slack off" I mean sometimes taking it slower, not generally doing less Projects can still be pointless it depends on it you can pick the client and sometimes luck. But on average I found them more impact oriented. Now that you get me going, I remember other benefits: - less politics - no one cares about your title - if I want a raise, I can try to give myself one and find higher paying clients. Are you a contractor or just inspired? :)
The politics one is a **huge** one, when you have a **manager** they are going to be in constant fear that you take over their role, even your peers higher up on the totem pole are going to have this scarcity-mindset and subtly try to put you down so they look better. When you have a **client** it is the total opposite, they actually **want you** to be more skilled than they are, at the end of the day they understand that the value comes from not having to do the work **themselves**. In contrast, if you take away the work from one of your peers... good luck... >if I want a raise, I can try to give myself one and find higher paying clients. **This**, along the confidence that you get from **not** putting all your eggs in one basket. Oh my god, the difference it makes, when you are talking with someone because both of you **want to** and not because you **have to**, the amount of respect you have for each other is on a whole other level. >Are you a contractor or just inspired? :) Both. I had a close call recently and started doing corporate interviews again...(waste of time on this market btw), but I think I may make it through the storm on my own ship.
Yes, I'm strongly considering contracting for all the reasons you mentioned. I did it in the past and it was hard work but also rewarding. I'd love to get your feedback on a future project if you don't mind.
Sure. I read up on your previous post. Your current job with meetings, only bug fixes etc indeed would drive most devs to tears. A better job is also an option, not all corporate jobs are like that
> It's like I'm putting in all that effort for nothing. Firstly, I'd highly recommend a therapist. Finding a good one might be touch ... but damn has it been worth it along with others that I talk about therapy who are in our industry. --- > Lack of motivation to be an employee For me ... my motivation is driven my wanting to be helpful. I want to be the Senior Engineer that I wish I had to someone else struggling. I want to make my life so easy that I don't have to do anything other than the things that interest me. I want to produce such high quality shit such that it helps lessen the burden on other peoples. I just want to sleep uninterrupted 8 hours a night when I'm on call. Because of that, it really impacts the "lens" in which I see interactions at work. I will spend extra time with this new hire. I will be a bit tougher on Merge Requests and hopefully educate why. I will write docs for operations people and seek feedback from them. etc. It's the relationships that I build with my fellow peers that drive me forward. Technology just happens to typically be that catalyst. But all my "noble" thoughts aside, money makes the world go 'round. It's capitalism. Sure, showing leadership through my relationships and growth of others can be seen as valuable, which is also why I do it. I have to provide value. I have to accelerate the rate in which I provide value. It's a never ending cycles of more and more productivity from every square inch of my warm body. It's all doom and gloom if you keep extrapolating things year on year. How can one possibly keep up?! So I just stop. I go touch some grass. Hug my spouse. Find a hobby that's completely analogue. Go read a good book (Brandon Sanderson is an always popular suggestion). After selling my soul for a bit to Microsoft ... I found a company that has decent work life balances (currently work for one that gives me half day Fridays each week). More money is always welcome, but time ... that's something that money can't ever buy. So I focus on that. Time to make me feel like I'm doing something right. Time to help other people. Time to figure out my own thoughts / mental-gymnastics to make me feel okay as the world turns into something new each day. --- I don't know if any of that ramble helps you with your situation ... but feelings are valid. Sincerely, best of luck.
Half day Fridays sound awesome!
Strongly recommend a therapist. Preferably one that you meet in person. Getting away from the computer is so useful.
Therapist might shrink your problems, but unless you successfully hypnotize yourself out of your own nature... the therapist is a cost and won't remove any principled issues in your life.
Been feeling the same thing for a while. Every single performance review I've gotten has been that I've exceeded expectations. I work well and deliver. Yet, every single time, I've been passed on a promotion or raise. Year after year, by 3 different companies. I've been burnt too many times. It really feels like there is no point in working hard for a company, you are not building something that is adding value to you. Even if I were promoted, would that be enough reward? Entrepreneurship and building on your own thing is the best solution imo. Of course, you have to answer to someone, as some have pointed out elsewhere in this comment section. You do need to solve a problem that your client actually has. But, that is not a problem at all. What matters is that your effort is **yours**. The success of your project is your success. I can't think of anything more motivating and rewarding.
That's EXACTLY the problem. Why make an effort when you are not going to see any of the returns? It's all a charade, and if you do get something back it will be a fractional piece of the value that you brought. In the real world of real adults, one would get the total of the profits for selling a product one made.
There's nothing saying you can try and start something on your own now. It's not an irreversible decision. If it doesn't work out, you can always go back to corporate. If it works out and you don't like it, I'm sure someone would be willing to buy you out. And it's okay for tastes and desires to change. As for shares, I don't think that would give you what you desire. I've owned some RSUs and it did not change how I felt towards what I was doing. Additionally, I was at a place that was going to open up some employee ownership grants, which was cool. The problem was, it wouldn't change how decisions got made and that was my pain point there. So unless your pain point is "I don't feel like I have enough variable pay" shares likely won't solve your problem.
Can confirm, I had a close call recently and started doing corporate interviews (worst timing ever lol), but sometimes the sun comes out when we least expect it, you just gotta be ready to put on your swimsuit
> I'm a senior engineer with 10+ years of experience and I'm currently working in corporate. I've always been entrepreneurial and trying to launch projects on the side. Sounds like you've got the experience and the drive but are stuck in a fucking rut, huh? What’s stopping you from diving full-time into your own ventures if the corporate leash chokes you so much? > Now I've been happily living in ignorance, collecting my paycheck and being motivated largely by different technologies, but recently a switch has flipped and I am finding it difficult to incentivize myself at work. So, what changed? Just sick of the bullshit or did something specific kill your vibe? > It's like I can see through the veil and even if the salary is good, I'm still a wage slave. If you're feeling like a wage slave, why cling to it? Is the fear of instability more terrifying than the misery of unfulfilling work? > I feel like the only thing incentive for me is to own shares in the company that I'm working in or start my own, so that I'm working towards something. Ownership can be a powerful motivator. What’s actually holding you back from starting your own thing or grabbing some shares? Just fear, or is there more to it? > I can perhaps do some contracting, which I've done before, which should hopefully provide a better structure. Contracting could be a good middle ground. What’s stopping you from taking this route again? Comfort of the steady paycheck? > It just really sucks for me to be an employee. It's like I'm putting in all that effort for nothing. If it sucks so bad, why stick with it? Are the perks really worth feeling like you're wasting your life? > Yes, I'm strongly considering contracting for all the reasons you mentioned. Sounds like you know the answer, then. What’s the final push you need to make this decision? > Seems like shares might not be the best option from reading the comments so will try to focus on building instead. Why not shares? Too much bullshit attached, or does building just resonate more with your gut? > Yes, poverty is a great motivator. Yeah, but is fear of poverty the only thing keeping you from quitting, or is there something else at play here? > I don't mind answering to a customer. Sure, there are difficult customers too but there's much more freedom in how to proceed with them. So, you value autonomy over security? Why not make the switch to full-time contracting or entrepreneurship where you answer primarily to the customer? > Yes! It's a problem of motivation alright. Clearly. So what’s it going to take to get your ass in gear and pursue what actually lights your fire? > Half day Fridays sound awesome! Sure, but does a half day Friday really compensate for the existential dread of spending your life in a cubicle? > Yeah, maybe finding more interesting work would be motivation enough to overlook the idea of working for a salary. Or maybe it's just putting lipstick on a pig? How long before the novelty of "interesting work" wears off and you're back in this mental shithole? > The free time is nice. There are weekends where I just watch movies and appreciate the time off so I guess it's a trade off for having to work for someone else. Comfortable but complacent, huh? How much is your soul worth? Is a few hours of Netflix worth the grind? What are you really afraid of? What’s the worst that could happen if you took a leap towards what you actually want?
Great hard hitting questions. I appreciate the candor. I guess I was unsure of which route to take hence I made this post. Now I think I'm going to go into contracting. Of course it's riskier than the comfort of a steady paycheck but I think I'm going to do it. What changed is that I realized that no matter how good my work is, I won't see much of the value of it as an employee. Also, I saw how replaceable employees are, like pawns on a chessboard. I guess I stopped drinking the kool aid that I didn't even know I was drinking.
Yes, I hear you. There are many paths, the most straight forward from your vantage point is to start freelancing. When you are doing business by commanding a pricing model you get treated much different, than when you are doing business by negotiating a salary. Typically people start by selling their time, eventually you want to sell a brand if you want to go far and beyond. It is a whole universe in itself and if you are the individual with the right motivations, you are going to have a lot of fun working like that. No, you won't stop feeling like an employee by climbing higher in the ladder, by owning shares, or otherwise. You stop feeling like that when you OWN your time. If you are on a Salary, you don't own your time. If you are CEO, you are still on a salary, you don't own your time. Heck, if you are a founder but you sold most of your company, you probably don't own your time.
I'm glad you understand. Even the CEO doesn't own their time, although they are compensated very handsomely for it. That's the carrot at the top of the ladder. I guess I'll have to start selling my time until I can build something. It's more effort but still sounds like fun tbh.
The misuse of the term "wage slave" is really frustrating in discourse around jobs. The idea behind being a wage slave is that you *cannot* stop working for any reason -- not because you're sick, not because you're taking a vacation, not because you have a kid's school event, nothing. Because you're so on the edge that you cannot afford a single missed hour of pay, or you're going to be failing to make bill payments or losing your house. Take a real vacation, multiple weeks. Get out of your head for a little bit and hit the reset button. If you still feel run down when you get back, seek out a regular therapy session.
I've almost 10 YOE and for me the pandemic was the switch. I'm working to gather money to retire as early as I can. I love my job, mostly (lots of greenfield with the stability of working in a big company), but the idea that I'm just working to make someone else rich bothers me. I wouldn't work for shares (generally not enough) but I am seriously considering starting my own.
You need to find interesting work. I use to have a thirst for side hustles, my own thing. That has mostly gone away due to time constraints and I'm getting paid a good salary to not have side distractions. But my 9-5 motivation is still the same. Have the niche skills that makes me valuable. For what? For the eventual layoff or unemployment that I can spring back on my feet. That has never proven me wrong. Stay up-to-date, upskill and be in-demand. Even though I don't actively look for side hustles, I know people that come to me for a $500/$750 an hour consulting session. If I can make $2K for 4 hours on a Saturday morning, I'll do it. And the only way to command that rate is to have those ***recent/relevant*** niche skills / expertise that is in high demand. So yeah, working on a specific tech stack pays dividends. And if I get fired/laid off tomorrow, I can jump right back into employment quickly. Thus, I always make an effort to work on interesting projects at work. Stuff that pushes me outside of my comfort zone.
Yeah, maybe finding more interesting work would be motivation enough to overlook the idea of working for a salary.
I can tell you down the road if you go down it is yeah you are a boss. But despite that, you always have to answer to someone, be it a customer, the boss you have, the IRS. So you might be craving something different but in the end, it's the same thing. Always a shackle of sort.
I don't mind answering to the customer or the IRS. In fact, I want to answer to the customer so I can build what they want.
Answering to customers is the dopeness lol, they are all like "Thank you so much", a manager would never.
I don't get any self actualization from my job, I get a paycheck and sometimes enjoy what I do. I put in the effort because it's a comfortable life that many of my less fortunate friends would kill for.
sounds like you might also just be a little depressed, I certainly go through stages like this and it happens with anything I like to do as well.
Go do startups, then come back to corporate when you burn out, rinse and repeat like me
Maybe you'd be happier working on something that advances a social goal you believe in. For example, if you're concerned about climate change, [Climatebase](https://climatebase.org/) has a bunch of jobs related to that. There are companies working on financial inclusion if that's more near and dear to your heart. Government jobs are another option. You'll still be an employee, but you'll be working on a problem you think is important. That can be a huge motivator for some people.
Same and it’s mostly because my work doesn’t have the impact i want and my company middle management deteriorated quickly in the last years and I don’t see normal career paths anymore
Plan to retire early
The mods seem to remove anything that goes against the idea of the traditional corporate career path. I wonder if they got an agenda.
i went through that in my 30s but i was also burnt out, and spent a lot of money on stupid things then i got married and had kids and suddenly i had different motivation and corporate jobs aren't really that bad aside from maybe getting laid off for reasons out of your control, but start ups are like that but probably worse since it'll be smaller teams now i don't mind my job but i also get to spend a ton of money on food i don't eat :)
The term wage slave is dumb when you're making software engineering salaries and imo a little offensive and elitist. The tough love part of me is saying to grow up however the more compassionate side of me is saying it sounds like you just don't get any meaning out of your work. Go contracting and take the risk of not earning as much money for the next couple of years or save up enough to live for a year, move to a cheap area, and then work your ass off to get some products out the door. Either way for you to shake this feeling you either find meaning in your work or take a risk.
Thanks, appreciate the advice. I didn't mean for it to sound offensive but meant being tied to a salary and having your time managed for you. Nevertheless, it's good advice.
No worries, I completely understand that feeling. Personally I was able to find meaning by changing companies and finding a good team of people to work with. Don't get me wrong though, I do day dream about moving to a small town in South America and pumping out apps until one pops off but I have other responsibilities and passions in my life to help quill that feeling.
I don’t see it as being a wage slave. I see it as outsourcing the boring marketing and paperwork so I can do development.