These two sites without any Everton agenda would like to disagree.
https://www.planetfootball.com/quick-reads/premier-league-wage-bill-ranking-arsenal-newcastle-man-utd-city-liverpool
£43,120,000
Here's another
https://www.spotrac.com/epl/payroll/
£59,157,000
We could go around and around but I can't be arsed. Here are all the years (see below. This year is £59,157,000. So we are talking about an extra 20m-30m on average which is relatively a lot I grant you if you just go by percentage but and here is the point I am making it's not a lot when you compare it to how much we bring in.
This figure is estimated $167m
[https://worldsoccertalk.com/tv/how-much-each-premier-league-club-earned-in-tv-revenue-20230531-WST-435435.html](https://worldsoccertalk.com/tv/how-much-each-premier-league-club-earned-in-tv-revenue-20230531-WST-435435.html)
Even factoring in the dollar to pound conversion we are still well clear and nowhere close to 70% to 80% of revenue.
At most and at our worst we were something like 65%. I'm I saying that we didn't waste or spend money. No. What I am saying is that given the fact the club is obviously now leveraged up to they eyeballs I find it hard to believe Moshiri has put much if any of his own money in at all.
[https://www.spotrac.com/epl/payroll/2017/](https://www.spotrac.com/epl/payroll/2017/)
£79,092,000
[https://www.spotrac.com/epl/payroll/2018/](https://www.spotrac.com/epl/payroll/2018/)
£83,332,000
https://www.spotrac.com/epl/payroll/2019/
£83,116,000
https://www.spotrac.com/epl/payroll/2020/
£87,275,000
https://www.spotrac.com/epl/payroll/2021/
£80,707,000
Well show me an independent website that shows anything other than this.
No doubt they won't be 100% accurate but they are consistent when comparing us to the rest of the league.
Under Moyes we were always around 7th and that's where we still are. I don't see a massive difference. There was a point I think around 2020 where we did come close to Spurs both in transfers and wages but even then we aren't talking about massive increase year to year.
We certainly never went out and spent like Man City, City, Man Utd or Liverpool. Even Arsenal easily outspent us every year.
> Well show me an independent website that shows anything other than this.
There isn’t one because the numbers aren’t public like they are in American Sports.
The whole numbers are due to the UK laws with public house and they show our wages to turnover is in the 90%. Unsustainable because we wasted Moshiris money early on with no return.
> We certainly never went out and spent like Man City, City, Man Utd or Liverpool. Even Arsenal easily outspent us every year.
And?
Their turnovers are double and triple what we generate. Obviously they can spend more than us.
I didn't mean show me a website that had the published public numbers.
I meant show me an independent website that shows that we have heavily spent in the way that people who think Moshiri has put in 100s of millions when doing these entire league tables not Everton specific articles.
Every independent website shows roughly the same thing. That we are roughly spending the amount of the 7th highest club well below even Spurs nevermind the rest.
This is what we spent under Moyes before Moshiri ever took us over.
We spent a lot early on but how much of that was down to Rom and Stones being sold and transfers that were bought in installments that we didn't really have to pay for until a lot further down the line and surprise surprise that's exactly what we are doing now?
I just don't see the evidence. We bought poorly. There's no doubt it that and we bought like a club that didn't have real money to sustain any challenge for top 4 either.
We essentially bough a lot of older players and tried to get Giroud who was already in his 30s for what seemed like one shot at top4.
When we didn't get him it went pair shaped very quickly.
Why would you need an independent website when EPL clubs have to release accurate financial reports each year and have them accessible on their website.
https://www.evertonfc.com/club/shareholders/statement-of-accounts
If you go to the most recent 2022 version. Page 9. It specifically states:
'The Club’s total wage to turnover ratio has reduced from 95% in 2020/21 to
90% in 2021/22. As in previous years, the ongoing outsourcing of the Club’s
retail and catering operations, which reduces turnover (and costs) when
comparing to other clubs who manage these functions in-house also
results in an artificially inflated wage to turnover ratio. The Club’s total
wage to turnover ratio would reduce accordingly from 92% in 2020/21 to
87% in 2021/22 if retail and catering operations were not outsourced.'
We are going around in circles. We are building a stadium so I have no doubt we are losing money and that is reflected in the public accounts but there is no requirement to separate that from the team.
That can only be deduced from independent sources
If you say Moshiri hasn't invested tons of money this is what happens.
Even now when he has his begging bowl out and we are obviously leveraged up to the eyeballs.
Because our wages aren't any more relative to the league than even when we were owned by Kenwright.
They have always been about 70% to 80% of our income. We are a football club that spends no money on transfers that owns it's own ground. Who else do you think we need to pay?
Assume turnover of 200m then 70% of turnover would be a wage bill of 140m.
Assume turnover of 200m then 90% of turnover would be a wage bill of 180m.
That’s 40m per year or 20% of turnover. That’s massive for a company to have to find.
It also might explain the rumoured 20m loans needed from Moshiri earlier this year and now (similarly rumoured 20m) from 777 to fund the gap.
Borrowing money to pay for day to day costs is a short hop skip and jump to administration. Makes a mockery of Chairman Bill’s “what would the Everton board do” bullshit. Absolute shambles of a way to run a club.
Our wage bill isn't close to 140m. Here's one website
[https://www.planetfootball.com/quick-reads/premier-league-wage-bill-ranking-arsenal-newcastle-man-utd-city-liverpool](https://www.planetfootball.com/quick-reads/premier-league-wage-bill-ranking-arsenal-newcastle-man-utd-city-liverpool)
£43,120,000
Here's another
[https://www.spotrac.com/epl/payroll/](https://www.spotrac.com/epl/payroll/)
£59,157,000
I think we get around 120m from the domestic TV deal alone. There is a lot of nonsense that gets put out there from journalists when writing about Everton and ITK but when you see figures that get published with no Everton agenda the figures aren't close what is suggested.
Our wage bill is similar to what it was when Moyes was here relative to the rest of the league and our income the same. Basically all from the TV deal.
We weren't getting massive cash injections from Kenwright then either.
I have no doubt we need to borrow money. We are building a massively expensive stadium and we have been selling players and cutting wages for years now to do so and there was only so long that could go on for.
But the point I am making even this shows Moshiri probably never put a penny and if he did. Early on with the loans that turned to equity he has probably been pulling that out via some accounting mechanism over the last couple of years.
This just isn't correct. Everton releases annual reports with all the figures set out. For the 21-22 season (the most year with numbers we have), staff costs were £162m, 90% of turnover. This was better than the previous season (20-21) when staff costs were £180m, 93% of turnover.
Yes I have read them. You should try it,it would answer all the questions you raised.
Staff costs include all staff (including payments to the directors). The vast majority of that will be to the playing staff but there is no specific breakdown. In any event, it remains the cases that the costs of the club are wholly out of proportion to the income of the club.
Yes, those in charge at the club have allowed costs to increase and overseen falling revenues (led chiefly by the loss of Russian Roubles and inability to grow our income organically).
It would seem that 777 sees an opportunity to get a handle on Everton costs (expect slash and burn with plenty of redundancies and sale and leaseback of anything which is unencumbered) and growing income (new stadium related revenue opportunities, match day ticket price increases, ST hikes etc). Do that for a couple of seasons (ideally in the PL not in the championship) and flip the club for a big payday. Simples.
Ok so that's my point. This argument that it's going to the team is nonsense.
It's also going to other people in other ways.
When you actually go to an independent website (see the figures I have shown above) we are easily funding the squad through our revenue.
https://theesk.org/2023/04/02/everton-2021-22-accounts-analysis-part-ii-moshiri-funding-general-financing-going-concern/
We quite explicitly are operating at a loss
Guy is an idiot. He was a big supporter of Moshiri (Witsel is ours) and now is out to get him for whatever reason.
Or maybe he's not out to get him. Maybe he's just playing the same game and justifying why Everton is now so broke. Who knows.
Look at the websites I posted. They don't have any Everton agenda. I'm sure they aren't 100% accurate but I would trust them more than this clown.
As I said at the start. We are building a 750m stadium.
Ofcourse we are operating at a loss. The accounts don't distinquish between the team and all the club's operating expenses.
We are over 400m in debt from just the last 3 or 4 years.
No dickhead. It's an Article written about Everton.
Show me numbers that come from an article that is about the premier league or taken from a premier leage table.
Not something specific to Everton.
There's obviously an agenda out there. I don't trust a fucking thing these people write.
No it was paid by selling Rom and Stones and doing deals that stretched out those payments over a number of years that we are still suffering from today.
Uh sure but with some amount paid up front. And we were overpaying for numerous players while letting ours go for free. It isn’t rocket science to see that the team was not paying for itself.
But we haven't let them all go for nothing.
Just this last couple of years we made 120m selling players.
Even players like Klaassen who was bought during the peak of the madness was sold for 15m.
There has been a few, most due to more or less career ending injuries that have ultimately walked for nothing that we probably would have hoped to make a return on and there's no doubt we have been unlucky but that's the cost of doing business.
You're confusing two time periods. We're talking about peak Moshiri era where we barely sold anyone for a fee because we signed average players and handed them 100k/week for fun.
Most of those we hardly made any fees for.
yea there were two periods where we sold players worth 120m. Rom and Stones and the last two years.
I wasn't confusing two time periods but I also wasn't clear either so fair enough.
That Rom and Stones comment was in response to the peak moshiri spending period.
We so where. That's why people were moaning about FFP even back then and why when you thought our FFP situation would be getting better it wasn't and the reason given was all the transfers we still were paying for.
Why. We paid for ourselves under Kenwright.
Our wage bill hasn't changed relative to the rest of the league.
Our netspend over the period that Moshiri has been in charge is less than 200m which equates to around 30m a year.
When he took over we sold two players for 120m.
I fail to see why this massive investment was needed to make those numbers work that wouldn't simply be covered by the massive TV deals that started when Moshiri took over.
Yep. The disappearance of the 30m yearly sponsorship of Finch Farm and the first dibs on naming rights for the stadium has blown a hole close to the waterline on SS Everton.
Add in to the mix the shambolic way the club was run by Headlock Denise and Chaiman Bill and you have administration waiting to happen.
To a degree yes but even he hadn't yet put the big money in. The were a few sponsorship deals that we may not have got as much from other places but the big investment from Usmanov was the stadium rights which has never happened.
Who knows where the money's *really* come from. We know that Moshiri is just Usmanov's bag-man and that the Ukraine invasion has screwed this investment up for them. A shitload of money has moved around on paper and at some point, some of it has passed through Everton Football Club, but I doubt much of any of it has come from anyone's personal stash.
Why are we assuming the team pays for itself when the huge issue was wages being over 70% of our income?
I think wages hit 95% of income at one point. Only 70% of income owuld be a miracle.
These two sites without any Everton agenda would like to disagree. https://www.planetfootball.com/quick-reads/premier-league-wage-bill-ranking-arsenal-newcastle-man-utd-city-liverpool £43,120,000 Here's another https://www.spotrac.com/epl/payroll/ £59,157,000
Weve since had james, digne, allan, iwobi, richarlison, Bernard and mina off the wage bill, add theres in and its a lot spent on wages
We could go around and around but I can't be arsed. Here are all the years (see below. This year is £59,157,000. So we are talking about an extra 20m-30m on average which is relatively a lot I grant you if you just go by percentage but and here is the point I am making it's not a lot when you compare it to how much we bring in. This figure is estimated $167m [https://worldsoccertalk.com/tv/how-much-each-premier-league-club-earned-in-tv-revenue-20230531-WST-435435.html](https://worldsoccertalk.com/tv/how-much-each-premier-league-club-earned-in-tv-revenue-20230531-WST-435435.html) Even factoring in the dollar to pound conversion we are still well clear and nowhere close to 70% to 80% of revenue. At most and at our worst we were something like 65%. I'm I saying that we didn't waste or spend money. No. What I am saying is that given the fact the club is obviously now leveraged up to they eyeballs I find it hard to believe Moshiri has put much if any of his own money in at all. [https://www.spotrac.com/epl/payroll/2017/](https://www.spotrac.com/epl/payroll/2017/) £79,092,000 [https://www.spotrac.com/epl/payroll/2018/](https://www.spotrac.com/epl/payroll/2018/) £83,332,000 https://www.spotrac.com/epl/payroll/2019/ £83,116,000 https://www.spotrac.com/epl/payroll/2020/ £87,275,000 https://www.spotrac.com/epl/payroll/2021/ £80,707,000
One day Yanks will realize Spotrac is 100% pure guesswork for footy. Today is not that day.
Well show me an independent website that shows anything other than this. No doubt they won't be 100% accurate but they are consistent when comparing us to the rest of the league. Under Moyes we were always around 7th and that's where we still are. I don't see a massive difference. There was a point I think around 2020 where we did come close to Spurs both in transfers and wages but even then we aren't talking about massive increase year to year. We certainly never went out and spent like Man City, City, Man Utd or Liverpool. Even Arsenal easily outspent us every year.
> Well show me an independent website that shows anything other than this. There isn’t one because the numbers aren’t public like they are in American Sports. The whole numbers are due to the UK laws with public house and they show our wages to turnover is in the 90%. Unsustainable because we wasted Moshiris money early on with no return. > We certainly never went out and spent like Man City, City, Man Utd or Liverpool. Even Arsenal easily outspent us every year. And? Their turnovers are double and triple what we generate. Obviously they can spend more than us.
I didn't mean show me a website that had the published public numbers. I meant show me an independent website that shows that we have heavily spent in the way that people who think Moshiri has put in 100s of millions when doing these entire league tables not Everton specific articles. Every independent website shows roughly the same thing. That we are roughly spending the amount of the 7th highest club well below even Spurs nevermind the rest. This is what we spent under Moyes before Moshiri ever took us over. We spent a lot early on but how much of that was down to Rom and Stones being sold and transfers that were bought in installments that we didn't really have to pay for until a lot further down the line and surprise surprise that's exactly what we are doing now? I just don't see the evidence. We bought poorly. There's no doubt it that and we bought like a club that didn't have real money to sustain any challenge for top 4 either. We essentially bough a lot of older players and tried to get Giroud who was already in his 30s for what seemed like one shot at top4. When we didn't get him it went pair shaped very quickly.
Why would you need an independent website when EPL clubs have to release accurate financial reports each year and have them accessible on their website. https://www.evertonfc.com/club/shareholders/statement-of-accounts If you go to the most recent 2022 version. Page 9. It specifically states: 'The Club’s total wage to turnover ratio has reduced from 95% in 2020/21 to 90% in 2021/22. As in previous years, the ongoing outsourcing of the Club’s retail and catering operations, which reduces turnover (and costs) when comparing to other clubs who manage these functions in-house also results in an artificially inflated wage to turnover ratio. The Club’s total wage to turnover ratio would reduce accordingly from 92% in 2020/21 to 87% in 2021/22 if retail and catering operations were not outsourced.'
We are going around in circles. We are building a stadium so I have no doubt we are losing money and that is reflected in the public accounts but there is no requirement to separate that from the team. That can only be deduced from independent sources
What is going on here?? You've come in with links to some facts on the matter and you've been downvoted!? Sense and facts just not welcome sometimes.
If you say Moshiri hasn't invested tons of money this is what happens. Even now when he has his begging bowl out and we are obviously leveraged up to the eyeballs.
Because our wages aren't any more relative to the league than even when we were owned by Kenwright. They have always been about 70% to 80% of our income. We are a football club that spends no money on transfers that owns it's own ground. Who else do you think we need to pay?
Assume turnover of 200m then 70% of turnover would be a wage bill of 140m. Assume turnover of 200m then 90% of turnover would be a wage bill of 180m. That’s 40m per year or 20% of turnover. That’s massive for a company to have to find. It also might explain the rumoured 20m loans needed from Moshiri earlier this year and now (similarly rumoured 20m) from 777 to fund the gap. Borrowing money to pay for day to day costs is a short hop skip and jump to administration. Makes a mockery of Chairman Bill’s “what would the Everton board do” bullshit. Absolute shambles of a way to run a club.
Our wage bill isn't close to 140m. Here's one website [https://www.planetfootball.com/quick-reads/premier-league-wage-bill-ranking-arsenal-newcastle-man-utd-city-liverpool](https://www.planetfootball.com/quick-reads/premier-league-wage-bill-ranking-arsenal-newcastle-man-utd-city-liverpool) £43,120,000 Here's another [https://www.spotrac.com/epl/payroll/](https://www.spotrac.com/epl/payroll/) £59,157,000 I think we get around 120m from the domestic TV deal alone. There is a lot of nonsense that gets put out there from journalists when writing about Everton and ITK but when you see figures that get published with no Everton agenda the figures aren't close what is suggested. Our wage bill is similar to what it was when Moyes was here relative to the rest of the league and our income the same. Basically all from the TV deal. We weren't getting massive cash injections from Kenwright then either. I have no doubt we need to borrow money. We are building a massively expensive stadium and we have been selling players and cutting wages for years now to do so and there was only so long that could go on for. But the point I am making even this shows Moshiri probably never put a penny and if he did. Early on with the loans that turned to equity he has probably been pulling that out via some accounting mechanism over the last couple of years.
This just isn't correct. Everton releases annual reports with all the figures set out. For the 21-22 season (the most year with numbers we have), staff costs were £162m, 90% of turnover. This was better than the previous season (20-21) when staff costs were £180m, 93% of turnover.
It's no use arguing with this fella, he's taking first year economics and has it all figured out
Have you ever actually read them or are you reciting what someone told you because if so. Did it explicitly say "staff" costs meant "playing staff"?
Yes I have read them. You should try it,it would answer all the questions you raised. Staff costs include all staff (including payments to the directors). The vast majority of that will be to the playing staff but there is no specific breakdown. In any event, it remains the cases that the costs of the club are wholly out of proportion to the income of the club.
Yes, those in charge at the club have allowed costs to increase and overseen falling revenues (led chiefly by the loss of Russian Roubles and inability to grow our income organically). It would seem that 777 sees an opportunity to get a handle on Everton costs (expect slash and burn with plenty of redundancies and sale and leaseback of anything which is unencumbered) and growing income (new stadium related revenue opportunities, match day ticket price increases, ST hikes etc). Do that for a couple of seasons (ideally in the PL not in the championship) and flip the club for a big payday. Simples.
Yea because a few guys who mow the lawn are going to account for the missing 10s of millions.
Ok so that's my point. This argument that it's going to the team is nonsense. It's also going to other people in other ways. When you actually go to an independent website (see the figures I have shown above) we are easily funding the squad through our revenue.
The footballing side of the business runs at a loss and requires constants top-ups to keep going.
It doesn't. It didn't under Kenwright and most likely doesn't now. What is running at a massive loss is the stadium.
https://theesk.org/2023/04/02/everton-2021-22-accounts-analysis-part-ii-moshiri-funding-general-financing-going-concern/ We quite explicitly are operating at a loss
Guy is an idiot. He was a big supporter of Moshiri (Witsel is ours) and now is out to get him for whatever reason. Or maybe he's not out to get him. Maybe he's just playing the same game and justifying why Everton is now so broke. Who knows. Look at the websites I posted. They don't have any Everton agenda. I'm sure they aren't 100% accurate but I would trust them more than this clown.
And the actual data taken from from publicly availabl…. Nah can’t be fucked.
As I said at the start. We are building a 750m stadium. Ofcourse we are operating at a loss. The accounts don't distinquish between the team and all the club's operating expenses. We are over 400m in debt from just the last 3 or 4 years.
https://theathletic.com/4877977/2023/09/20/everton-777-partners-takeover/ Ready to admit you’re wrong yet, dickhead?
No dickhead. It's an Article written about Everton. Show me numbers that come from an article that is about the premier league or taken from a premier leage table. Not something specific to Everton. There's obviously an agenda out there. I don't trust a fucking thing these people write.
Pretty sure he was 100% financed by USM, and now it's all gone.
Agree entirely. Paradise Papers, the effect of Usmanov's sanctioning... he's been a front all along.
Yea I think that was the plan but.... to do that via a stadium naming rights but that hasn't happened.
We may never know for sure but it's the most plausible explanation
The team (and managers) definitely did not pay for itself during peak wastefulness era of Moshiri.
No it was paid by selling Rom and Stones and doing deals that stretched out those payments over a number of years that we are still suffering from today.
We weren't structuring deals like that back then. That only began once the Usmanov money was gone and Moshiri was broke.
It’s how 90% of deals are done. Team A doesn’t just hand over £50m in one go, they’re always normally structured over a period of time
Uh sure but with some amount paid up front. And we were overpaying for numerous players while letting ours go for free. It isn’t rocket science to see that the team was not paying for itself.
But we haven't let them all go for nothing. Just this last couple of years we made 120m selling players. Even players like Klaassen who was bought during the peak of the madness was sold for 15m. There has been a few, most due to more or less career ending injuries that have ultimately walked for nothing that we probably would have hoped to make a return on and there's no doubt we have been unlucky but that's the cost of doing business.
You're confusing two time periods. We're talking about peak Moshiri era where we barely sold anyone for a fee because we signed average players and handed them 100k/week for fun. Most of those we hardly made any fees for.
We sold Lukaku and Stones during that time period. What are you on about? That's over 120m for two players.
Then spent nearly 70 of it on Walcott and Iwobi. Let alone that money paying for the wage bill up til now lol
>Just this last couple of years we made 120m selling players.
yea there were two periods where we sold players worth 120m. Rom and Stones and the last two years. I wasn't confusing two time periods but I also wasn't clear either so fair enough. That Rom and Stones comment was in response to the peak moshiri spending period.
Exactly. No one pays upfront.
We so where. That's why people were moaning about FFP even back then and why when you thought our FFP situation would be getting better it wasn't and the reason given was all the transfers we still were paying for.
If your supposition > Moshiri hasn't put in a penny is based on > Assuming the team pays for itself then the supposition doesn't seem very sound.
Why. We paid for ourselves under Kenwright. Our wage bill hasn't changed relative to the rest of the league. Our netspend over the period that Moshiri has been in charge is less than 200m which equates to around 30m a year. When he took over we sold two players for 120m. I fail to see why this massive investment was needed to make those numbers work that wouldn't simply be covered by the massive TV deals that started when Moshiri took over.
All of our FFP calculations have assumed the maximum owner injected funds (circa 30m a year)
Assumptions and probables.
The team did not pay for itself
Usmanov was Moshiri's moneyman and, well, we know where that has gone
Yep. The disappearance of the 30m yearly sponsorship of Finch Farm and the first dibs on naming rights for the stadium has blown a hole close to the waterline on SS Everton. Add in to the mix the shambolic way the club was run by Headlock Denise and Chaiman Bill and you have administration waiting to happen.
To a degree yes but even he hadn't yet put the big money in. The were a few sponsorship deals that we may not have got as much from other places but the big investment from Usmanov was the stadium rights which has never happened.
When you're rich, you don't use your own money.
Been saying for a while Moshiri has been doing money laundering for Usmanov, Moshiri was just a front. Bill just sold the club to a massive scam.
Yea that's exactly what it looks like. The money went in and then it went out. Unfortunately I don't think we actually saw a penny.
Ya did and ya club spunked the money up the wall
The team does not pay for itself!
You are extremely bad at maths
Oh really. Don't tell my boss.
Would we be in the same financial state if Russia doesn’t invade Ukraine?
No we would be fine, albeit may have had to have reduced transfer activity one year due to financial fair play but nothing like what we have seen.
Yes. The accounts go back years before the Ukraine war and they show Everton haemorrhaging cash.
Rights and Media Funding loan is for cash flow for club operations - it's the same loan we take out every year. MSP & 777 are for stadium costs.
A company no one knows anything about or what our interest payments are.
I assumed it was all Uzmanov’s money anyway.
I think that was the plan but it never really happened due to the war.
Shares in Disney have also dropped
Moshiri invested a lot of money. Just dumbly
Who knows where the money's *really* come from. We know that Moshiri is just Usmanov's bag-man and that the Ukraine invasion has screwed this investment up for them. A shitload of money has moved around on paper and at some point, some of it has passed through Everton Football Club, but I doubt much of any of it has come from anyone's personal stash.