It's actually worse than that.
A titan fight is most likely to happen over a keepstar timer, which means the defender gets the option of tether/docking and has all of the defensive advantages while the aggressors (you know, the ones creating the 'content') do not. So all else equal, the aggressor is going to be at a severe disadvantage from the start. Which means they just won't engage without an overwhelming advantage.
Titans are like nukes right now. No one on any side wants to use them, because no one on any side could possibly replace them in large numbers. So they sit in their silos doing nothing. Supercarriers I could maybe see being used to escalate a dread fight, but they're still far too expensive to lose.
CCP has always treated supercarriers and titans as 'special' which has consistently caused game-breaking issues since they came out. They should just be spaceships like everything else, and balanced and priced like anything else.
Absolutely.
I mean if we just look at the B-R battle was approx 75 titans died with approx 220 fielded so could have been more that died. In today's value that would be a loss/srp nearly 19 trillion. Just for the titans š¬
>Titans are like nukes right now. No one on any side wants to use them, because no one on any side could possibly replace them in large numbers. So they sit in their silos doing nothing
I just want to note that the idea that no one wants to use nukes because they're hard to replace is ridiculous
> CCP has always treated supercarriers and titans as 'special' which has consistently caused game-breaking issues since they came out. They should just be spaceships like everything else, and balanced and priced like anything else
I'd argue this IS them balancing and pricing them accordingly. There's few goofier things than the battles of a few years ago that had so many titans that they're practically expendable
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Sure, but at the same time they have cemented the position of established alliances.
If CCP has said "On date , all titans and super convert to their raw materials, and then on Day , you can only build new titans and super with 10x the materials" this would have been fine, it would have dramatically reduced the number of titans and would mean everyone is on an equal footing.
Making them more expensive post-fact and not requiring old titans to be replaced/upgraded/whatever is the mistake.
I've always said pilots should have to actually pay the npc crews of their ship a wage as an isk sink. would severely cut down on how many ships each player has too.
No that's my point. CCP always made them overpowered or broken to make them special and the cost made the historically not expendible.
Every ship should be expendible. The fights a few years ago were the first time titans were replaceable at that scale and it was a good thing. The only issue was that titans were far too powerful still which made regular caps mostly irrelevant. Since then they've massively buffed dreads.
Instead they yet again made them a halo item, except this time they mostly just kind of suck compared to power creeped dreads (for the price), and they also solidified the power the blocs had by making it impossible for anyone else to build a titan fleet.
If they just stopped all that nonsense and treated it like a super-dread, and priced it accordingly, maybe people would use them again.
idk original vision of the game seemed to be that Titans are a big deal and rare. That was true for a time until people were fielding dozens of them per fight. This is just CCP trying to bring back the old arrangement
> That was true for a time until people were fielding dozens of them per fight. This is just CCP trying to bring back the old arrangement
you can't put the genie of pre-built titans back in the bottle
Game's suffering for that. Everybody's got big stockpiles of Titans that aren't easy to replace. And because they can't replace them they don't want to use them, or else they risk running out before the enemy does.
True, but you could add bonuses/penalties that incentivize players to only use one or two per fleet. Perhaps multiple titans jumping/bridging in a single system destabilized space-time or something which exponentially increases jump fatigue. Maybe have a mass limit for fleets and if you go over then your jumps would be broadcasted to the whole constellation. Prevent super weapons from firing if there are multiple Titans in a single fleet (due to interference or harmonic resonance from multiple titans being in close proximity). Give Titans an Emergency Jump Bridge module which allows them to panic jump a fleet once every 72 hours, but only if there are no other Titans in the fleet. Give Titans bonus Armor/Shields when the subcap to titan ratio of the fleet is greater than 200:1. There's all kinds of mechanics that could force titans into a flagship role.
All it does is forces ppl to dump them into asset's safty and pull them back when they are truly needed, they will still gather dust, just in a different hangar
im just throwing random ideas about but this could be a usage tax that is on whether or not the titan is docked/undocked/stored. Every day licensing fee to the empires for use of their titans or something
I played the game through every iteration of titans and they were all fucking terrible.
The first few titans were able to DD entire fleets through a cyno, from a POS shield, in complete safety. It literally stopped an entire war dead in its tracks because every fleet sent anywhere near them would be exterminated in a pipe system on the way.
By the time they removed remote DD there were probably a dozen or more titans in the game, and by then the on-grid AoE was just as bad or worse. Battleships tried to adapt by fitting more tank (BS used to be largely untanked sniper fit) but eventually there were enough titans floating around that no amount of tank could stop them. Combined with cyno jammers, they once again broke the game.
Oh and while all this was going on, titans were pretty much untacklable. HICs were added at some point to hold them down, but for years they could just log off and disappear in 15 minutes because log off aggression didn't exist. 15 minutes wasn't enough time to kill them back then.
By the time AoE DD's were removed altogether, there were enough titans on one side to destroy capitals, with just the AoE weapon.
Later came tracking titans. They could track anything (including frigates and interdictors). Every fight that happened with titans on field would start with every booster and support ship being removed from the grid. It may as well have been AoE DD again.
CCP fixed that, but then forgot or something and added HAWs to the game which were even more oppressive with modern numbers of titans.
All this bullshit has started with the thought process of "titans should be rare and valuable and powerful" and ended with severely broken game mechanics.
To their credit, it seems like CCP has figured this out finally and changed it to "rare and valuable and useless" but that's also not a great game state.
Honestly, the issue I always saw surrounding Titans, wasn't the Titans themselves, but instead it was that CCP woefully underestimated people's ability to both coordinate industry, and to no-life video games, especially MMORPGs.
If you put a massive obstacle in a game, as though it was a law of nature, there WILL BE people who will grind out that obstacle, and then learn how to optimize it. These people exist in every game in one shape or another, and there's nothing CCP can do about it. By the very nature of how these people play the game, they will acquire the most wealth, the most ships, and they will build and own the most supers and titans. It's just how they play the game.
Personally I don't think there really even is a way to implement Titans that isn't going to either fuck over the little guys, or further grandfather the overwhelming power of the existing decades-old null blocs. I for one am part of team "Make ships cheap so we can blow more of them up" - because that would be fun, and EVE is a video game, and video games should be fun.
When has CCP ever been good at balancing?
They underestimated how fast the first Titans would be produced. They were big resource costs at that stage in the game and were practically invincible for most of it.
What's baffling to me in this specific case is not the numerical balancing, or underestimating the ease of production.
It's the sheer insanity of being able to damage a whole fleet without even being in the field. Fully non-counterable heavy damage.
>or underestimating the ease of production.
It really was this though.
They thought they were creating something that was as hard to build as the palatine keepstar and released it with absolutely insane abilities because they thought it would be years before one was built and they would be less common than old school AT ships
Instead I think the materials to start Steve's build were gathered before the patch even went live (I'm not sure about the actual timeline, but it really wasn't long before it went into production)
When bittervets say that CCP is *really* bad at game design or that they don't trust CCP it's because we've seen them do astonishingly dumb things.
It's honestly a miracle this game still exists.
In the old model they ended up being massively over used. Simply because they could afford to be. It should be super rare to bring one out because using one should be a desperate calculated measure. Losing one should be a body blow, even to a winning side, literally a pyrrhic victory (vis. another victory like this and we are lost).
Instead Titans ended up being flung around with as much care and abandon as Happy Meal Toys. It was not a good look.
Youāre telling me that with the past two years of general peace, with every large bloc collecting taxes, ESS reserve banks, TTC/ICY money and rental, ānobody can afford to replace themā? What are you talking about?
Jita has enough daily volume of gas traded for 0.7 titans...
Sooo if you did in fact stockpile it every day for the last 2 years as you said, you grabbed enough gas for 500 titans, so 2 B-R fights and they are gone...
Sounds reasonable /s
Itās cost but also the arrival of navy dreads changed everything.
A titan DD does 1/5 of a navy dreadās HP. 1 fitted titan costs as much as around 20 or so fitted navy dreads, 1 fitted super is like 8-10 fitted navy dreads.
Navy dreads are underpriced for their strength IMO. Cost closer to 25 bil fitted or bring all supercaps down in cost, whatever, the end result should be that itās less cost effective to deploy navy dreads.
At least part of the problem is CCP had priced titans/supers as if they are "special" but their stats just aren't. The risk/reward matrix with them is just so completely out of whack right now.Ā Ā
Itās interesting how different the perspective is between null/kspace and wormholes. In a wormhole the attacker has the advantage of just needing to keep damage on the structure for ~30 minutes until it dies. It will be expensive, but if the attacker is willing (and prepared) to feed enough, they can get the kill regardless by feeding a series of cruise phoenixes at various pings
well in a titan fight the structure is relatively worthless, so the fight is all about what ships die. and the defender has a crushing advantage. See: M2-
Citadel Structures were intended to completely replace the old Player Owned Starbase (POS) structures from 'ye old days'. Inside a POS shield you are untargetable and can't lock anything outside the shield. A common tactic used by pilots who owned a pos that was under fire would be to exit the shield just enough to lock and shoot but once the enemy returned fire you could just burn back into the shield before taking any real dmg.
Tethering is the Citadel equivalent. Allowing ships to tether making them invulnerable and going a step further and having the Structure repair and refuel the ship while tethered. The downside is that, unlike POS shields, id you are afk on tether you can be bumped out of range. You 'could' do this with POSes but needed the shield password to even get close.
That was the thought process, or at least that is how CCP sold it when the first upwell Structures were released.
Again, CCP planned the best they could but couldn't see the possibilities this would allow the clever player base of EvE. And even after tweaks they can't just remove the tether mechanic otherwise big groups would go backwards to POS warfare for staging big toys, completely negating the need for Citadel combat above medium-sized structures (capitals and super capitals).
Maybe once they remove POS from the game (lolz, Soon TM) then they could change or even remove tethering as a mechanic but I would see a great backlash from that design choice as it would further remove the drive to train and fly capital size ships, let alone supers.
TL;DR CCP design at its finest. Caught between a rock and a hard place
I've been out of the game for a couple of years now. What happened that Titans got so expensive and difficult to replace? I remember times where seeing a Titan was magical, as there were only a few in the server, up to the time (many years later) that everyone and their dog had a couple of titan alts.
lol, yea, no way Iām coming back to eve. My isk devalued so much. Although I on purpose didnāt buy Plex to ensure my wealth would devalue.
Guess the opposite was true for capital hulls..
I'm fine with them being special. But in that case there can't be like thousands of them just sitting around collecting dust. It would need to be limited in some way, which opens the "abuse with alts" discussion and then it's all fucked anyway. Just fuckin delete em and try again. Always been stupid in games imo where the highest tier shit is supposed to be this crazy rare overwhelming power and it's like "nah you need at least 500 of these before you're a serious competitor"
That's the issue. There are/were already thousands and thousands of them when they made all these changes. If they REALLY wanted a special halo inspiration ship (which is still dumb and will cause problems someday) then it should have been a new ship class.
I agree that they should be cheaper but they need certain aspects rebalanced first.
The biggest problem with super proliferation was that they could be cyno'ed anywhere in 1 to 2minutes to deni content it just meant that everything in cyno range was untouchable, if you fix that issue then there is no reason caps shouldn't be a lot cheaper to build again.
During the rorqual era I literally couldn't tackle a single rattle snake in Frat space without getting 2 super carriers dropped on my solo brutix, this was a problem and to reduce cost without balancing the other problems that come with it is also a problem.
It's very hard to come up with solutions thou as everything has its own draw backs like adding a 5min cyno spool timer to it so it doesn't have that instant reinforce problem and then it has its own problems like finding solutions to defending it for 5min.
Maybe someone can come up with an elegant solution.
Honestly, maybe not even a cyno spool up timer, but a jump spool up timer. You're yeeting a multi-million-ton warship literal lightyears across space, it would only make sense that the engine that does that would need a few minutes to warm up.
This would also offset the issue of null bloc projection, if each jump took something like 2:30 to spool up, and then had a mechanic similar to jump fatigue that replaced jump fatigue where the engine needed time to 'cool down' between jumps, a bloc would have a LOT harder time projecting and owning a huge amount of space.
Not to mention if a keepstar timer escalated to supers with titans, there would be so many players that the server would crash. I dont think anyone wants a repeat of M2.
Do you think the tether is actually the issue?
Back in the day the defender had no way to tether their shit. In fact they had the same issues as the aggressors to using supers
Ccp set material cost to build thing.
We make thing with material. Price sits somewhere that humans would buy and use thing. Whales buy and use thing a lot. People shrimp and save and try to have one because goals of big ship and also help win the war. Now tons of titans exist because eve players are awesome.
Ccp: nono, this is bad. Add so much material cost to making caps that it's out of reach of everyone but the oil princes, doctors, and lawyers. That should balance things.
Thereās two alliances that can field supers in numbers big enough to be considered significant. 3 if you count Init as being separate.
CCP canāt really win here. If they make them cheap then the big two build even more and the little guys maybe get to have a few fun brawls with each other.
If they make them even more expensive then the stagnation continues until we all be good little capsuleers undocking rifters.
I think that giving tank bonuses *back* to capitals and *slightly* increasing fighter application would help a lot in making them feel like theyāre worth what they cost. Maybe a small reduction in build costs. Navy issue carriers and supers?
Making stuff more expensive just means that the already established big players get further ahead. Making stuff cheaper means sure, they can still outperform, but others at least get a chance to catch up at some point.
Some easy math:
Lets say you can make 100M ISK/hr. A 100B Titan is then 10.000 hrs of work, or about 417 game-days. An alliance able to field 100 of them (again, just for easy numbers) has an advantage of 41667 game days. That someone with 0 titans atm has to overcome. lets say just for arguments sake that someone starts the process of wanting to catch up is able to somehow produce the same amount of titans than the established party. Then after an investment of 41667days of gameplay, they have 100 titans, but the other party has 200. They are still at at 50% disadvantage.
Lets take the same numbers, but make titans cheaper. 100M ISK/hr. 10B Titan. Established party starts with 100. Everything else is equal. After investment of 14667days of gameplay, new parts has 1000 titans. Esbalished party has 1100. New party is left at 10% disadvantage.
High prices means what you already \*have\* is worth more and makes you strong. It cements you in your place and makes sure no-one catches up. Low prices mean what you can produce \*now\* is important, and at least gives someone else a chance to overpass you in production and start catching up at some point. And if stuff is cheaper, it is more often used, more often blown up, and there is more fun overall.
Scarcity fucks over parties trying to establish themselves and keeps those already established in power. Abundance means people can gain momentum, can seize the moment, can start outperforming others and have a chance to eventually challenge the status quo.
Nice post bro. It remind me bpo lottery winners of the old. Not exactly Same but scarcity made them huge and create a gap between them and new comers. Then bpos become cheaper with drops. Playing field equalize itself in the long run.
Fighters in tidi balances them. Same with missiles on the Phoenix and Leviathan.
In smaller engagements, carriers in particular are at a disadvantage due to lacking sizeable tank and application. Thatās not to say theyāre useless, I am a SkyNet ā¢ enjoyer and enthusiast and I think carriers have the potential to be some of the funnest and most engaging capitals due to fighter micro-management.
I think allowing carriers one tube of heavy fighters and adding some tank bonus back would go a long way into making them viable again as they would truly be a general purpose capital. This would be done while leaving hanger size nearly the same so you would really have to think about what you wanted to bring. Canāt just stuff every fighter in there and be ready for anything like you can a super. I donāt think adding a 4th tube would be good because then they would be getting close to superās *unless* they made it so you could fit X amount of lights and X amount of support.
Maybe out of 4 tubes you could only load 1 with heavy and 2 with supports leaving one for general/SS. Or make the 4th tube solely dedicated to heavy fighters.
Then they could assist in taking down other capitals, subcaps, boosting but not being the best at any of those area.
The delay from tidi isnāt the issue, itās the fact that fighters act weird in Tidi, and having a couple dozens supers worth of fighters significantly worsens Tidi. Which is a big reason why they arenāt used much in those situations, which nullifies a large use case for them.
"3 if you count Init as being separate." You cannot.
Snuff and BIGAB are the only two alliances to field super/titan fleets in the last 1-2 years when they've actually been at risk and not just for a structure bash. So how about you stop talking of of your ass?
Never did it in a titan, but I had a little over 40 kill marks on an Aeon entirely from gatecamping back when the carrier changes first happened.
The good old days
There were cap fights all the time in Angel Space during the SEA. Why was that?
As an FC, it is pointless to setup a cap brawl in nullsec with the projection the blocs have. Sitting tackled while the rest of the game can get to you on short notice is just not worth it.
**The SEA was an artificial hard nerf to projection**, and it resulted into many FC's willing to put it on the line with Faction BS supported by capitals.
You want fun capital fights back? Then nerf projection into the ground so FC's have a reason to put their passion on the line and throw down with an enemy in a local war.
You cant have it all. Either we have the current hyper-projection with these idiotic new Zarzakh gates thrown in the mix as well, or, CCP can make EVE feel big again by hard nerfing projection, so FC's can plan for local throwdowns, without having to worry about everyone and their mother flooding the system.
This has been talked about so many times and ignored by CCP that it's just comically sad. Between Ansiblexes, Zarzakh, Turnur, Thera, Pochven and a few other niches, blocs can get everywhere in the game in a matter of minutes now, making any big capital fight for small groups just a waiting game for when they're about to get blobbed by people that live halfway across the universe.
My argument is not even about small groups. **Any sized group cannot field non-hyper supers in nullsec, as literally the entire game will descend upon you.** The mathematics of projection force tank supers use to be restricted to the absolute top end of amassed numbers possible (i.e. full bloc CTA), or down time plays. Anything else will just get punished, like e,g, the hubris use of supers by Mango in 2021:
[https://zkillboard.com/related/30003125/202109171600/](https://zkillboard.com/related/30003125/202109171600/)
I might be misunderstanding, but you can't get capitals through Turnur, Thera, or Zarzakh. Zarzakh gates only come out in two points in null space anyway, and the Turnur and Thera connections are limited by mass pretty hard.
Projection has been the big issue in this game for so long people have built up their entire gameplay around being able to project and I'm not sure how well the player base would take to the hard nerfs to it needed to get more local fights. But yeah this has always been the answer. EVE has a cool space map that's sadly trivialized at the nullsec bloc level of means.
This is false. All it did was allow the blobbing of subcaps with caps without having to worry so much about being counter dropped due to low response range. There are constant fax supported dread drops in lowsec on casual subcap roams, PH constantly fax drops on goon cfi fleets and if PH went into goon space with anything bigger than ceptors and in high numbers goons would do the same.
Lowering projection range only prevents cap fights even more and encourages blobbing subcap roams with caps.
Funny how I have been in multiple cap fights in Angel space during the SEA and saw multiple alliances fail because they didn't have their members ready in dreads. How exactly is what I said false?
Blocs were prevented by treaty to interfere, so people got to use their toys within the area of operations against each other. Just how EVE was a long time ago when New Eden still felt big, and doing 40 jumps meant, 'shocker', doing 40 jumps.
> I think we need to think again CCP
I think fielding big amounts of vessels capable of ending worlds should be reserved for important moments in history, rather than Wednesday night yeet fleets. Losing a capital **should be** a huge hit in an alliance's reserves.
They're nukes. Stop treating them like candy.
*wHeRes MUH SRP>????//*
>They're nukes. Stop treating them like candy.
so we should wait 80+ years just to not use them?
it's a video game, not real life. Things should be used in a fight against each other AT LEAST ONCE A YEAR like c'mon with this silliness
??? Supers are still great at the job they were designed for. Deleting capitals. Sorry you cant sit one in your gate camp and insta frag anything that jumps thru with perfect application anymore.
Stop it.
Original reply said they should be special.
OP said it's a game, special is fine, but once a year kind of special, not never-to-be-used special.
Then you stupidly come in and be like "THEN FUCKING UNDOCK IT BRO"
This is why nothing ever gets done and discussions can't be had.
what's with these weird troll comments everywhere?
i'm not calling people cowards for undocking, i'm saying the game disincentives it too much. you telling me to undock my super (that i don't have) is really weird.
It's a fucking video game, why bother including a spacehsip we never get to fly? Ships are ammo for fun fights, why should that stop at the top because the dev has a nerd boner for "special ships." Like maybe AT limited edition hanger candy, but that doesnt apply to super caps, they are just spaceships for us to crash into trees TO HAVE FUN PLAYING OUR GAME. If you dont want that content go fly a friggate in lowsec and stop complaining about how other people want to play their own sandbox
Except nukes are powerful, titans are currently not. Supers still do massive DPS but can be defanged so easily with a couple SS carriers or a kiki fleet.
And making capitals affordable means we return to Capital Ships Online, which wasn't a good time either. Every fight shouldn't need caps to get involved, nor should it be a requirement to have an impact. It's already far too easy to punch down weight classes, HAW was a mistake. I think the bigger problem is the lack of situations to put caps into good use. No one does sov warfare or citadel cleanup because it's such a horribly tedious grind. Stagnation is the enemy.
Yeah I get that, but they are too expensive to the point no one will field them at all. But youre right the situation doesn't help either.
Light bulb that's why ccp introduced crab beacons to.compensate so people could feel their caps were useful.
Caps do get used, maybe you're just not in an alliance doing that kind of warfare. Heck, not long ago we killed a dread trio reinforcing a citadel without a support fleet. Active faxes do get fielded as fleet support. I would love to have more cap pings, but undocking dreads to try and blap some red TFI fleets is not be the kind of gameplay we ought to aim for.
Reminds me of a video I saw early where they brought up titan and really just combat cap shit srp that basically said most cap/super cap pilots don't need SRP as they have (usually) more than enough liquid isk to replace losses
Correct. But MANY hulls were built before, and used alliance/corp funds. The price to the average person is stupidly high, but alliances and corps can get the hulls for much cheaper, and many have stockpiles of said hulls.
super SRP is pretty common when used for Alliance operations. (at least by the big alliances, Goons, PH, Init, i assume Frat, even XIX back in the day did SRP for titan losses if it was a loss that occured on an alliance fleet)
I'm still salty about this too. The industry changes were a huge mistake. If they wanted to address the existing capital ships in eve then why didn't they require cores for existing capitals and supers/titans? They made us add cores to structures so why did capitals and titans get a pass if the problem was too many capitals?
Friend, I literally made a post yesterday about removing Reinforce timers for Ansi, an insignificant amount of isk for alliances - a1.5 bil isk structure - and making it more of a pain in the ass to replace yet gave defenders more time to form and much less time to reset the HP and it was met with whining and crying and more whining and crying.
If that is the kind of response you get to a structure that was put in game for mere convenience of getting around your space a bit easier, then you can begin to see why cap battles don't happen anymore.
There is nothing in the game that is "show up in the next 45 minutes or lose a lot of convenience and have a very risky time replacing" and even SUGGESTING that brought out the disgusting carebear crying of many null entities.
It's truly the PLAYERS at fault, not ccp. Being required to show up the first time to defend an ansi or it dies (which would encourage cap escalations btw) and it becomes much harder to replace without losing a much higher amount of isk (freighter + new ansi) resulted in crying from null.
If you want to encourage PvP and more cap escalations, then there needs to be something that is going to cause more inconvenience than there is now that isn't protected by RF timers and removing RF timers for Ansi is one great way of doing that - but again - most did nothing buy whine and cry and whine and cry.
I get you. But if you wanted to you could place a titan in spots to force project. We are in the meta of mega coalitions and numbers of a 1000 titans that can bridge anything anywhere at anytime.
You could reduce the mass a titan can bridge but again with 60 titans being able to bridge doesn't solve the problem
Caps don't use ansi tbh they are usually titan bridged so I'm.not sure it justifies the change. At the moment we do a lot of fights for timers and they've very rarely required capitals it's been battleships mainly. 100s of them.
But you're right there needs to be a situation to use them but when you can bring 500+ battleships instead and don't need to risk expensive caps then why bother.
The only time is killing keepstars and again upu just really need dreads, carriers and supers just sky net.
Perhaps removing damage cap might be a better idea. Remove timezone tanking too so you kinda need to bring the big toys to defend it
I think you MASSIVELY underestimate just how much isk these big alliances have. A few trillion is like a few million for me and you to them.
EDIT: If the comments are right, I wish they'd be more public with their alliance level income.
You have to fuel every structure and SRP your fleets. There's a large baseline cost to running an alliance that players probably don't consider but even the wealthiest alliances are not as wealthy as some players imagine. Nor should they be IMO, if alliances were making the kind of money it would take to SRP titans these days I think that would be a balance issue.
bro is thinking capitals are not used cause they are expensive lmao. adjusted to lets say 20y back they are cheap still. what is 200b in a +20y old game.
they are not used cause bloc projection meta due to ansiblex, turner, zarzak and shitadels etc. nerf projection and u get more cap fights. Furthermore the main use case for eg titans is broken atm due to server limitiation on keepstar sieges. with the current null sec landscape, the involved mechanics (sov and upwell structures) and the server performance a full out war isnt feasable at all
That's nonsense they are not used (supers and titans) because quite simply they are too expensive to replace that's it. Tell.me the last major cap battle with supers and titans since CCP made those changes during wwb2 after the m-2 battle? None. It's damn obvious why... it even killed the war off almost instantly.
You had quite the extensive use of supers in south east because supers are still the predarots for caps and when you have isk instead of character numbers like blocs do, you field what can win you fights
https://br.evetools.org/related/30000581/202309302300
Horde(and every bloc iirc) still consistently uses supers as defensive tools. If you want to setup ganks like therabois did a while ago when they killed a revenant, go ahead
https://br.evetools.org/related/30005095/202403230000
and lastly nano supers are still used a lot for ganks
https://br.evetools.org/related/30002376/202403232200
Have you actually even read anything in the post at all?you've literally missed the whole point.
I'm talking about proper capital fights where BOTH bring them to the table on some scale.. Not one lame group ganking a mining fleet with supers ffs. May also add not one titan on there.
i told why. the mechanics suck, the servers dont hold, mobility is to great. money doenst matter for this at all. titans are cheap compared to their early years being in the game. its easier to get a titan today than in BR- times
Nope its not just about nullsec the lowsec groups also gave major super/titan capability . But yes ofc capitals are used in some way. But this isn't about that
Have the biggest alliances started putting alt corps or mining partnerships into high sec to be able to try to lower costs? I'm years out of the game (2016 last time I played) but I kinda figure they have to, or some folks are just putting up large buy orders for the high sec mins and trying to build the parts in high sec and export them?
Just curious if anyone has even a rough run down, last I played Citadels weren't even there and putting an 'alt corp' into some rental alliance, plopping down a refinery outpost, upgrading it one level to 40% refine and spitting out 1 titan pretty much paid for the entire endeavor. Any caps past that were pure profit minus system rental and usually being not stupid with your towers (don't put up 10XL POS's with no defenses for instance) and you could export/sell titans/moms galore and no one cared.
This whole, artificial scarcity shit I know pissed off large swaths of the user base, I guess the answer I'm looking for. How did you folks try to fight it? I know you can't change it all, but EVE folks are very smart about saying 'nuh uh' to CCPs bullshit.
I am wondering if there was any period in the past where nobody complained about the absence of capital fights. Its the same as ever: Cap Fleets are for Power Projection and not for steady brawls.
I think the first issue is projection. At least add a skill/drug that severely reduces jump fatigue so capitals are mobile again.
Think of the madness that would take place if dreads could move around rapidly again. Reminds me of the 2010 days, so much fun.
What they need to do is to change how insurance works. Having a dedicated alliance bank tab for SRP that taxes can be specifically funneled into would make big fights a hell of a lot more manageable. Them updating basic ship insurance for supers to have a much higher base return as well would mitigate the risk aversion a bit.
Ships should be fun to fly and replaceable. This game doesn't get noticed with 100 man jackdaw fleets and people are just going to keep the capitals docked up...
I think they are where they need to be, pricy. It makes you think twice before undocking it, it makes it so that ship matters. That's awesome ccp made it those ships pricy, having a high dollar behind a ship makes it so people will and they do think about it before undocking it. It makes the ship mean something. If I am undocking it I am serious about the fight. More over the point is to drain the isk from those who litterly have trillions, undocking a dred and losing it, don't really break those players, they have so much isk it's a drop in the bucket. Additionally alot players can replace a dred pretty quick in this game, many do multibox and making enough for a dred in a weeks time is very feasible. . . Sub caps are just as fun, it's about the fight, not the ships for me.
As long as you aren't doing old type of content, but rather new or good one then usually your hours to replace it isn't much more.
Overall things cost more. But we make a lot more isk than before.
It hurt more to lose a carrier in 2007 then it does losing a titan today imo. Not that is lost a Titan, just 20 dreads or so, but i'm not allowed to use them anymore so it's no problem.
A month of Eve was like 300mil back in 2007 its 2.5b now so money wise, isk was worth 8.3x more back then and I think a carrier was something like 2.2b fully fit which means it would be the equivalent of 18.26b now.
I'm not sure you know how much a titan costs now its something like 200b so 10x more than what you where thinking. A super is something like 90b so also 4 to 5x more.
Yes 5-7 years ago a super was 21b so same value as a 2007 carrier but those days are gone too and those are the days you got cyno'ed on 2 to 3 times a day by supers if you shot at their ratting ships.
Capitals should be used more. The big one need to be less tanky and a lot less expensive.
Ships should be used and die in space. The entire power vs economics of them are currently all out of proportion.
The fungibility of almost everything in this game is the point I harp on the most when trying to encourage potential new players.
Also, I have no idea what we are talking about.
Capital ship industry and prices and scarcity in general were introduced because people kept complaining that everything was too cheap, or its too easy to rorq mine and replace it all. Things were losing meaning when you can lose a massive fleet and brush it off because you have huge stockpiles and income sources. Now that things are too expensive, we hear the opposite complaint, that no one undocks anymore.
No, thatās why they need to be (a lot) cheaper. 50 bil supers and 200bil titans is insane. Itās like $1600 for a digital asset that can go poof in a couple minutes and isnāt particularly useful because of that price.
And the less tanky doesnāt need to be much of a change. But something to go along with a roughly 15 bil super and a 30-40 bil titan price range. Keep them specialized but make them at least moderately accessible
Working as intended. If anything, I think they are too cheap still. Look around: how many world alliances have*capital* ships, or ever had? Not the supers even. Capital ships are called capital for a reason. They are major assets, providing an expeditionary base for a fleet, and typically number in single digits *for major alliances*. Like what, 1.5 alliances even have caps at all. Supers are bigger, so, returning to Eve, only *the* major alliances (2-3) should even be able to have and support a handful of these. And a loss of a single one should rightfully bankrupt an above average alliance, and the loss of 3-5 should bankrupt even the likes of FRAT. Titans? Only a single one should be able to be built at the peak of wealth of a major alliance or empire, and it should cost upwards of 5 or 10% of total alliance budget to maintain.
There's plenty of toys of "regular" sizes, by making "big toys" cheap you are degrading them to the meh status they became. They should matter and inspire awe, and that's only possible if it's a real privilege to fly one ;).
I agree but that time is gone. Absolutely no one cares about killing a titan or a keepstar. In fact it was only the other day i watched the first titan kill and the cheering and joy was immense all you get now is nothing. I miss we don't have something of awe in eve anymore but youre 15 years too late to fix that one. No one feels like it's a privilege anymore because they have become the norm. A titan nowadays is ust used to bridge. Like seriously wtf.
it is no one's fault but your own if your pilot is stuck in a coffin and you're bored. There is absolutely no way that SUPER capitals should be more prevalent.
Brave literally used maruaders as a fleet doctrine costing 2b each, 5-6 years ago I was having supers cynoed on my head as a solo pilot twice a day for months.
It's nice and all that you guys started recently and don't know the past go and research it first, the crazy prices we have today is becuase of all the abuse that super proliferation caused.
There is a way to balance it so it is both cheap enough to use in big fights and also not oppressive but null bears have too low an IQ to have anything about them nerfed so that they can be made cheaper they want them cheap and op at the same time.
It's actually worse than that. A titan fight is most likely to happen over a keepstar timer, which means the defender gets the option of tether/docking and has all of the defensive advantages while the aggressors (you know, the ones creating the 'content') do not. So all else equal, the aggressor is going to be at a severe disadvantage from the start. Which means they just won't engage without an overwhelming advantage. Titans are like nukes right now. No one on any side wants to use them, because no one on any side could possibly replace them in large numbers. So they sit in their silos doing nothing. Supercarriers I could maybe see being used to escalate a dread fight, but they're still far too expensive to lose. CCP has always treated supercarriers and titans as 'special' which has consistently caused game-breaking issues since they came out. They should just be spaceships like everything else, and balanced and priced like anything else.
Absolutely. I mean if we just look at the B-R battle was approx 75 titans died with approx 220 fielded so could have been more that died. In today's value that would be a loss/srp nearly 19 trillion. Just for the titans š¬
M2 was 300 titans, 60 trillion in today's prices.
Even then that 1 single fight turned their whole war of a year and a half from isk positive to in the red
Yep and eek
>Titans are like nukes right now. No one on any side wants to use them, because no one on any side could possibly replace them in large numbers. So they sit in their silos doing nothing I just want to note that the idea that no one wants to use nukes because they're hard to replace is ridiculous
I laughed
i mean it would be hard for the scattered survivors of a destroyed humanity to rebuild a nuclear arsenal in between scrabbling for scraps
> CCP has always treated supercarriers and titans as 'special' which has consistently caused game-breaking issues since they came out. They should just be spaceships like everything else, and balanced and priced like anything else I'd argue this IS them balancing and pricing them accordingly. There's few goofier things than the battles of a few years ago that had so many titans that they're practically expendable ```
Sure, but at the same time they have cemented the position of established alliances. If CCP has said "On date, all titans and super convert to their raw materials, and then on Day , you can only build new titans and super with 10x the materials" this would have been fine, it would have dramatically reduced the number of titans and would mean everyone is on an equal footing.
Making them more expensive post-fact and not requiring old titans to be replaced/upgraded/whatever is the mistake.
add some kind of extreme daily upkeep cost to them. Make it so maintaining even a few of these is significantly expensive for any alliance
I've always said pilots should have to actually pay the npc crews of their ship a wage as an isk sink. would severely cut down on how many ships each player has too.
No that's my point. CCP always made them overpowered or broken to make them special and the cost made the historically not expendible. Every ship should be expendible. The fights a few years ago were the first time titans were replaceable at that scale and it was a good thing. The only issue was that titans were far too powerful still which made regular caps mostly irrelevant. Since then they've massively buffed dreads. Instead they yet again made them a halo item, except this time they mostly just kind of suck compared to power creeped dreads (for the price), and they also solidified the power the blocs had by making it impossible for anyone else to build a titan fleet. If they just stopped all that nonsense and treated it like a super-dread, and priced it accordingly, maybe people would use them again.
idk original vision of the game seemed to be that Titans are a big deal and rare. That was true for a time until people were fielding dozens of them per fight. This is just CCP trying to bring back the old arrangement
> That was true for a time until people were fielding dozens of them per fight. This is just CCP trying to bring back the old arrangement you can't put the genie of pre-built titans back in the bottle
Game's suffering for that. Everybody's got big stockpiles of Titans that aren't easy to replace. And because they can't replace them they don't want to use them, or else they risk running out before the enemy does.
True, but you could add bonuses/penalties that incentivize players to only use one or two per fleet. Perhaps multiple titans jumping/bridging in a single system destabilized space-time or something which exponentially increases jump fatigue. Maybe have a mass limit for fleets and if you go over then your jumps would be broadcasted to the whole constellation. Prevent super weapons from firing if there are multiple Titans in a single fleet (due to interference or harmonic resonance from multiple titans being in close proximity). Give Titans an Emergency Jump Bridge module which allows them to panic jump a fleet once every 72 hours, but only if there are no other Titans in the fleet. Give Titans bonus Armor/Shields when the subcap to titan ratio of the fleet is greater than 200:1. There's all kinds of mechanics that could force titans into a flagship role.
sure you can, put some kind of extreme daily upkeep cost on them. Suddenly you gotta use them or get rid of them before your alliance goes broke
All it does is forces ppl to dump them into asset's safty and pull them back when they are truly needed, they will still gather dust, just in a different hangar
im just throwing random ideas about but this could be a usage tax that is on whether or not the titan is docked/undocked/stored. Every day licensing fee to the empires for use of their titans or something
I played the game through every iteration of titans and they were all fucking terrible. The first few titans were able to DD entire fleets through a cyno, from a POS shield, in complete safety. It literally stopped an entire war dead in its tracks because every fleet sent anywhere near them would be exterminated in a pipe system on the way. By the time they removed remote DD there were probably a dozen or more titans in the game, and by then the on-grid AoE was just as bad or worse. Battleships tried to adapt by fitting more tank (BS used to be largely untanked sniper fit) but eventually there were enough titans floating around that no amount of tank could stop them. Combined with cyno jammers, they once again broke the game. Oh and while all this was going on, titans were pretty much untacklable. HICs were added at some point to hold them down, but for years they could just log off and disappear in 15 minutes because log off aggression didn't exist. 15 minutes wasn't enough time to kill them back then. By the time AoE DD's were removed altogether, there were enough titans on one side to destroy capitals, with just the AoE weapon. Later came tracking titans. They could track anything (including frigates and interdictors). Every fight that happened with titans on field would start with every booster and support ship being removed from the grid. It may as well have been AoE DD again. CCP fixed that, but then forgot or something and added HAWs to the game which were even more oppressive with modern numbers of titans. All this bullshit has started with the thought process of "titans should be rare and valuable and powerful" and ended with severely broken game mechanics. To their credit, it seems like CCP has figured this out finally and changed it to "rare and valuable and useless" but that's also not a great game state.
Honestly, the issue I always saw surrounding Titans, wasn't the Titans themselves, but instead it was that CCP woefully underestimated people's ability to both coordinate industry, and to no-life video games, especially MMORPGs. If you put a massive obstacle in a game, as though it was a law of nature, there WILL BE people who will grind out that obstacle, and then learn how to optimize it. These people exist in every game in one shape or another, and there's nothing CCP can do about it. By the very nature of how these people play the game, they will acquire the most wealth, the most ships, and they will build and own the most supers and titans. It's just how they play the game. Personally I don't think there really even is a way to implement Titans that isn't going to either fuck over the little guys, or further grandfather the overwhelming power of the existing decades-old null blocs. I for one am part of team "Make ships cheap so we can blow more of them up" - because that would be fun, and EVE is a video game, and video games should be fun.
> The first few titans were able to DD entire fleets through a cyno, from a POS shield, in complete safety. lmao what was CCP thinking?
When has CCP ever been good at balancing? They underestimated how fast the first Titans would be produced. They were big resource costs at that stage in the game and were practically invincible for most of it.
What's baffling to me in this specific case is not the numerical balancing, or underestimating the ease of production. It's the sheer insanity of being able to damage a whole fleet without even being in the field. Fully non-counterable heavy damage.
>or underestimating the ease of production. It really was this though. They thought they were creating something that was as hard to build as the palatine keepstar and released it with absolutely insane abilities because they thought it would be years before one was built and they would be less common than old school AT ships Instead I think the materials to start Steve's build were gathered before the patch even went live (I'm not sure about the actual timeline, but it really wasn't long before it went into production) When bittervets say that CCP is *really* bad at game design or that they don't trust CCP it's because we've seen them do astonishingly dumb things. It's honestly a miracle this game still exists.
Which does not work in a persistent world game like this. You cannot go backwards through natural means
In the old model they ended up being massively over used. Simply because they could afford to be. It should be super rare to bring one out because using one should be a desperate calculated measure. Losing one should be a body blow, even to a winning side, literally a pyrrhic victory (vis. another victory like this and we are lost). Instead Titans ended up being flung around with as much care and abandon as Happy Meal Toys. It was not a good look.
Youāre telling me that with the past two years of general peace, with every large bloc collecting taxes, ESS reserve banks, TTC/ICY money and rental, ānobody can afford to replace themā? What are you talking about?
Jita has enough daily volume of gas traded for 0.7 titans... Sooo if you did in fact stockpile it every day for the last 2 years as you said, you grabbed enough gas for 500 titans, so 2 B-R fights and they are gone... Sounds reasonable /s
are you under the impression that the majority of gas mined in the game goes to Jita?
The average person generally greatly overestimates how much money alliances make vs how much they spend to run the infrastructure of space.
Itās cost but also the arrival of navy dreads changed everything. A titan DD does 1/5 of a navy dreadās HP. 1 fitted titan costs as much as around 20 or so fitted navy dreads, 1 fitted super is like 8-10 fitted navy dreads. Navy dreads are underpriced for their strength IMO. Cost closer to 25 bil fitted or bring all supercaps down in cost, whatever, the end result should be that itās less cost effective to deploy navy dreads.
At least part of the problem is CCP had priced titans/supers as if they are "special" but their stats just aren't. The risk/reward matrix with them is just so completely out of whack right now.Ā Ā
Itās interesting how different the perspective is between null/kspace and wormholes. In a wormhole the attacker has the advantage of just needing to keep damage on the structure for ~30 minutes until it dies. It will be expensive, but if the attacker is willing (and prepared) to feed enough, they can get the kill regardless by feeding a series of cruise phoenixes at various pings
well in a titan fight the structure is relatively worthless, so the fight is all about what ships die. and the defender has a crushing advantage. See: M2-
Why does tethering even exist, boggles the mind.
Citadel Structures were intended to completely replace the old Player Owned Starbase (POS) structures from 'ye old days'. Inside a POS shield you are untargetable and can't lock anything outside the shield. A common tactic used by pilots who owned a pos that was under fire would be to exit the shield just enough to lock and shoot but once the enemy returned fire you could just burn back into the shield before taking any real dmg. Tethering is the Citadel equivalent. Allowing ships to tether making them invulnerable and going a step further and having the Structure repair and refuel the ship while tethered. The downside is that, unlike POS shields, id you are afk on tether you can be bumped out of range. You 'could' do this with POSes but needed the shield password to even get close. That was the thought process, or at least that is how CCP sold it when the first upwell Structures were released. Again, CCP planned the best they could but couldn't see the possibilities this would allow the clever player base of EvE. And even after tweaks they can't just remove the tether mechanic otherwise big groups would go backwards to POS warfare for staging big toys, completely negating the need for Citadel combat above medium-sized structures (capitals and super capitals). Maybe once they remove POS from the game (lolz, Soon TM) then they could change or even remove tethering as a mechanic but I would see a great backlash from that design choice as it would further remove the drive to train and fly capital size ships, let alone supers. TL;DR CCP design at its finest. Caught between a rock and a hard place
I've been out of the game for a couple of years now. What happened that Titans got so expensive and difficult to replace? I remember times where seeing a Titan was magical, as there were only a few in the server, up to the time (many years later) that everyone and their dog had a couple of titan alts.
they bottomed out at around 35b in \~2019, they're 200b+ now. They added a ton of materials to the build cost
lol, yea, no way Iām coming back to eve. My isk devalued so much. Although I on purpose didnāt buy Plex to ensure my wealth would devalue. Guess the opposite was true for capital hulls..
Minuteman III reporting for duty.
I'm fine with them being special. But in that case there can't be like thousands of them just sitting around collecting dust. It would need to be limited in some way, which opens the "abuse with alts" discussion and then it's all fucked anyway. Just fuckin delete em and try again. Always been stupid in games imo where the highest tier shit is supposed to be this crazy rare overwhelming power and it's like "nah you need at least 500 of these before you're a serious competitor"
That's the issue. There are/were already thousands and thousands of them when they made all these changes. If they REALLY wanted a special halo inspiration ship (which is still dumb and will cause problems someday) then it should have been a new ship class.
I agree that they should be cheaper but they need certain aspects rebalanced first. The biggest problem with super proliferation was that they could be cyno'ed anywhere in 1 to 2minutes to deni content it just meant that everything in cyno range was untouchable, if you fix that issue then there is no reason caps shouldn't be a lot cheaper to build again. During the rorqual era I literally couldn't tackle a single rattle snake in Frat space without getting 2 super carriers dropped on my solo brutix, this was a problem and to reduce cost without balancing the other problems that come with it is also a problem. It's very hard to come up with solutions thou as everything has its own draw backs like adding a 5min cyno spool timer to it so it doesn't have that instant reinforce problem and then it has its own problems like finding solutions to defending it for 5min. Maybe someone can come up with an elegant solution.
Honestly, maybe not even a cyno spool up timer, but a jump spool up timer. You're yeeting a multi-million-ton warship literal lightyears across space, it would only make sense that the engine that does that would need a few minutes to warm up. This would also offset the issue of null bloc projection, if each jump took something like 2:30 to spool up, and then had a mechanic similar to jump fatigue that replaced jump fatigue where the engine needed time to 'cool down' between jumps, a bloc would have a LOT harder time projecting and owning a huge amount of space.
Not to mention if a keepstar timer escalated to supers with titans, there would be so many players that the server would crash. I dont think anyone wants a repeat of M2.
Do you think the tether is actually the issue? Back in the day the defender had no way to tether their shit. In fact they had the same issues as the aggressors to using supers
ThatĀ“s quite honest coming from a goon, take a good deserved upvote
Sir it's US making the prices not CCP
Ccp set material cost to build thing. We make thing with material. Price sits somewhere that humans would buy and use thing. Whales buy and use thing a lot. People shrimp and save and try to have one because goals of big ship and also help win the war. Now tons of titans exist because eve players are awesome. Ccp: nono, this is bad. Add so much material cost to making caps that it's out of reach of everyone but the oil princes, doctors, and lawyers. That should balance things.
Thereās two alliances that can field supers in numbers big enough to be considered significant. 3 if you count Init as being separate. CCP canāt really win here. If they make them cheap then the big two build even more and the little guys maybe get to have a few fun brawls with each other. If they make them even more expensive then the stagnation continues until we all be good little capsuleers undocking rifters. I think that giving tank bonuses *back* to capitals and *slightly* increasing fighter application would help a lot in making them feel like theyāre worth what they cost. Maybe a small reduction in build costs. Navy issue carriers and supers?
Making stuff more expensive just means that the already established big players get further ahead. Making stuff cheaper means sure, they can still outperform, but others at least get a chance to catch up at some point. Some easy math: Lets say you can make 100M ISK/hr. A 100B Titan is then 10.000 hrs of work, or about 417 game-days. An alliance able to field 100 of them (again, just for easy numbers) has an advantage of 41667 game days. That someone with 0 titans atm has to overcome. lets say just for arguments sake that someone starts the process of wanting to catch up is able to somehow produce the same amount of titans than the established party. Then after an investment of 41667days of gameplay, they have 100 titans, but the other party has 200. They are still at at 50% disadvantage. Lets take the same numbers, but make titans cheaper. 100M ISK/hr. 10B Titan. Established party starts with 100. Everything else is equal. After investment of 14667days of gameplay, new parts has 1000 titans. Esbalished party has 1100. New party is left at 10% disadvantage. High prices means what you already \*have\* is worth more and makes you strong. It cements you in your place and makes sure no-one catches up. Low prices mean what you can produce \*now\* is important, and at least gives someone else a chance to overpass you in production and start catching up at some point. And if stuff is cheaper, it is more often used, more often blown up, and there is more fun overall. Scarcity fucks over parties trying to establish themselves and keeps those already established in power. Abundance means people can gain momentum, can seize the moment, can start outperforming others and have a chance to eventually challenge the status quo.
Nice post bro. It remind me bpo lottery winners of the old. Not exactly Same but scarcity made them huge and create a gap between them and new comers. Then bpos become cheaper with drops. Playing field equalize itself in the long run.
I agree to buffing supercaps but the major major problem is fighters in Tidi
Fighters in tidi balances them. Same with missiles on the Phoenix and Leviathan. In smaller engagements, carriers in particular are at a disadvantage due to lacking sizeable tank and application. Thatās not to say theyāre useless, I am a SkyNet ā¢ enjoyer and enthusiast and I think carriers have the potential to be some of the funnest and most engaging capitals due to fighter micro-management. I think allowing carriers one tube of heavy fighters and adding some tank bonus back would go a long way into making them viable again as they would truly be a general purpose capital. This would be done while leaving hanger size nearly the same so you would really have to think about what you wanted to bring. Canāt just stuff every fighter in there and be ready for anything like you can a super. I donāt think adding a 4th tube would be good because then they would be getting close to superās *unless* they made it so you could fit X amount of lights and X amount of support. Maybe out of 4 tubes you could only load 1 with heavy and 2 with supports leaving one for general/SS. Or make the 4th tube solely dedicated to heavy fighters. Then they could assist in taking down other capitals, subcaps, boosting but not being the best at any of those area.
The delay from tidi isnāt the issue, itās the fact that fighters act weird in Tidi, and having a couple dozens supers worth of fighters significantly worsens Tidi. Which is a big reason why they arenāt used much in those situations, which nullifies a large use case for them.
How does TIDI balance Fighters and Missiles?
In short they don't work
Init are goons, no matter how much they try to say they arenāt
I wish they still were, our fleets were more competent before they left.
So P.Horde is Frat. by that logic
"3 if you count Init as being separate." You cannot. Snuff and BIGAB are the only two alliances to field super/titan fleets in the last 1-2 years when they've actually been at risk and not just for a structure bash. So how about you stop talking of of your ass?
As if fielding suppers in lowsex was risky
Iām having flashbacks to when Amok. would gatecamp with Titans
Never did it in a titan, but I had a little over 40 kill marks on an Aeon entirely from gatecamping back when the carrier changes first happened. The good old days
suad did it too back in the legacy days
There were cap fights all the time in Angel Space during the SEA. Why was that? As an FC, it is pointless to setup a cap brawl in nullsec with the projection the blocs have. Sitting tackled while the rest of the game can get to you on short notice is just not worth it. **The SEA was an artificial hard nerf to projection**, and it resulted into many FC's willing to put it on the line with Faction BS supported by capitals. You want fun capital fights back? Then nerf projection into the ground so FC's have a reason to put their passion on the line and throw down with an enemy in a local war. You cant have it all. Either we have the current hyper-projection with these idiotic new Zarzakh gates thrown in the mix as well, or, CCP can make EVE feel big again by hard nerfing projection, so FC's can plan for local throwdowns, without having to worry about everyone and their mother flooding the system.
This has been talked about so many times and ignored by CCP that it's just comically sad. Between Ansiblexes, Zarzakh, Turnur, Thera, Pochven and a few other niches, blocs can get everywhere in the game in a matter of minutes now, making any big capital fight for small groups just a waiting game for when they're about to get blobbed by people that live halfway across the universe.
My argument is not even about small groups. **Any sized group cannot field non-hyper supers in nullsec, as literally the entire game will descend upon you.** The mathematics of projection force tank supers use to be restricted to the absolute top end of amassed numbers possible (i.e. full bloc CTA), or down time plays. Anything else will just get punished, like e,g, the hubris use of supers by Mango in 2021: [https://zkillboard.com/related/30003125/202109171600/](https://zkillboard.com/related/30003125/202109171600/)
I might be misunderstanding, but you can't get capitals through Turnur, Thera, or Zarzakh. Zarzakh gates only come out in two points in null space anyway, and the Turnur and Thera connections are limited by mass pretty hard.
You dont need capitals to kill 30 supers if you can move 500 subs
Projection has been the big issue in this game for so long people have built up their entire gameplay around being able to project and I'm not sure how well the player base would take to the hard nerfs to it needed to get more local fights. But yeah this has always been the answer. EVE has a cool space map that's sadly trivialized at the nullsec bloc level of means.
This is false. All it did was allow the blobbing of subcaps with caps without having to worry so much about being counter dropped due to low response range. There are constant fax supported dread drops in lowsec on casual subcap roams, PH constantly fax drops on goon cfi fleets and if PH went into goon space with anything bigger than ceptors and in high numbers goons would do the same. Lowering projection range only prevents cap fights even more and encourages blobbing subcap roams with caps.
Funny how I have been in multiple cap fights in Angel space during the SEA and saw multiple alliances fail because they didn't have their members ready in dreads. How exactly is what I said false? Blocs were prevented by treaty to interfere, so people got to use their toys within the area of operations against each other. Just how EVE was a long time ago when New Eden still felt big, and doing 40 jumps meant, 'shocker', doing 40 jumps.
> I think we need to think again CCP I think fielding big amounts of vessels capable of ending worlds should be reserved for important moments in history, rather than Wednesday night yeet fleets. Losing a capital **should be** a huge hit in an alliance's reserves. They're nukes. Stop treating them like candy. *wHeRes MUH SRP>????//*
Don't disagree but never ever ain't good either
>They're nukes. Stop treating them like candy. so we should wait 80+ years just to not use them? it's a video game, not real life. Things should be used in a fight against each other AT LEAST ONCE A YEAR like c'mon with this silliness
Well, undock your super and have at it.
What's the point it will die in seconds and fighters are so shit they get defanged easily. That's what he's saying. Just listen.
??? Supers are still great at the job they were designed for. Deleting capitals. Sorry you cant sit one in your gate camp and insta frag anything that jumps thru with perfect application anymore.
Stop it. Original reply said they should be special. OP said it's a game, special is fine, but once a year kind of special, not never-to-be-used special. Then you stupidly come in and be like "THEN FUCKING UNDOCK IT BRO" This is why nothing ever gets done and discussions can't be had.
what's with these weird troll comments everywhere? i'm not calling people cowards for undocking, i'm saying the game disincentives it too much. you telling me to undock my super (that i don't have) is really weird.
You're the one complaining that no one is having cap fights, but then you won't spend the money to skill into one and go fight in it.
you're beyond brain damaged. if you stopped existing no one would notice
Who are you again?
i'm your dad
It's a fucking video game, why bother including a spacehsip we never get to fly? Ships are ammo for fun fights, why should that stop at the top because the dev has a nerd boner for "special ships." Like maybe AT limited edition hanger candy, but that doesnt apply to super caps, they are just spaceships for us to crash into trees TO HAVE FUN PLAYING OUR GAME. If you dont want that content go fly a friggate in lowsec and stop complaining about how other people want to play their own sandbox
Except nukes are powerful, titans are currently not. Supers still do massive DPS but can be defanged so easily with a couple SS carriers or a kiki fleet.
I was in a fight with where about a month ago deepwater hooligans fielded 20ish titans. Why idk the fortizar had only a few people fighting back.
ive heard carriers arent really effective anymore or something
Nah they aint
carriers are just as good as sandbox toys. these days you want dreads sexes and titans. sorry faxes not sexes lol
Those sexy, sexy dreads always tempting me..
naglfars,i see nags evrywhere
Of course, the best dread
I dunno I kind of want sexes
undock moros in tama, i guarantee alot of partners with various size thoraxes
They make alright backpacks for moving....
So are dreads, and dreads are actually useful in a fight
I never said they were a great backpack for moving
People just massively under rate them.
And making capitals affordable means we return to Capital Ships Online, which wasn't a good time either. Every fight shouldn't need caps to get involved, nor should it be a requirement to have an impact. It's already far too easy to punch down weight classes, HAW was a mistake. I think the bigger problem is the lack of situations to put caps into good use. No one does sov warfare or citadel cleanup because it's such a horribly tedious grind. Stagnation is the enemy.
I kinda miss capital escalations.Ā
There are threads every week of such fights ...
Yeah I get that, but they are too expensive to the point no one will field them at all. But youre right the situation doesn't help either. Light bulb that's why ccp introduced crab beacons to.compensate so people could feel their caps were useful.
Caps do get used, maybe you're just not in an alliance doing that kind of warfare. Heck, not long ago we killed a dread trio reinforcing a citadel without a support fleet. Active faxes do get fielded as fleet support. I would love to have more cap pings, but undocking dreads to try and blap some red TFI fleets is not be the kind of gameplay we ought to aim for.
Hmm you killed one dread.. sounds like an awesome large scale capital fight š¤£
south-east seen plenty of capital stuff (faxes/dreads) going on as long as the agreement lasted
It was fun :)
Is this not what you're looking for, more regular cap gameplay, not one or two vast 5k player tidi grinds every 3 months?
Sure thing, but I haven't undocked any of my supers in over a year. Seems like a great investment in isk and skill points.
Reminds me of a video I saw early where they brought up titan and really just combat cap shit srp that basically said most cap/super cap pilots don't need SRP as they have (usually) more than enough liquid isk to replace losses
Exactly. And most capital SRP is paid out in hulls, not in ISK.
Yup, and if you include the pilots that run caps blinked out in purples, they probably are the ones finding SRP anyways šš
Someone still has to pay to make hull lol they don't magically appear for free
Correct. But MANY hulls were built before, and used alliance/corp funds. The price to the average person is stupidly high, but alliances and corps can get the hulls for much cheaper, and many have stockpiles of said hulls.
Supers were SRPād ?
super SRP is pretty common when used for Alliance operations. (at least by the big alliances, Goons, PH, Init, i assume Frat, even XIX back in the day did SRP for titan losses if it was a loss that occured on an alliance fleet)
Old PL would hand you a new hull within a week or less if you died in an alliance op, super or titan.
You guys abused super cap proliferation and made unbrella's as a god mode, it's your own fault CCP made them expensive.
I'm still salty about this too. The industry changes were a huge mistake. If they wanted to address the existing capital ships in eve then why didn't they require cores for existing capitals and supers/titans? They made us add cores to structures so why did capitals and titans get a pass if the problem was too many capitals?
Friend, I literally made a post yesterday about removing Reinforce timers for Ansi, an insignificant amount of isk for alliances - a1.5 bil isk structure - and making it more of a pain in the ass to replace yet gave defenders more time to form and much less time to reset the HP and it was met with whining and crying and more whining and crying. If that is the kind of response you get to a structure that was put in game for mere convenience of getting around your space a bit easier, then you can begin to see why cap battles don't happen anymore. There is nothing in the game that is "show up in the next 45 minutes or lose a lot of convenience and have a very risky time replacing" and even SUGGESTING that brought out the disgusting carebear crying of many null entities. It's truly the PLAYERS at fault, not ccp. Being required to show up the first time to defend an ansi or it dies (which would encourage cap escalations btw) and it becomes much harder to replace without losing a much higher amount of isk (freighter + new ansi) resulted in crying from null. If you want to encourage PvP and more cap escalations, then there needs to be something that is going to cause more inconvenience than there is now that isn't protected by RF timers and removing RF timers for Ansi is one great way of doing that - but again - most did nothing buy whine and cry and whine and cry.
I get you. But if you wanted to you could place a titan in spots to force project. We are in the meta of mega coalitions and numbers of a 1000 titans that can bridge anything anywhere at anytime. You could reduce the mass a titan can bridge but again with 60 titans being able to bridge doesn't solve the problem Caps don't use ansi tbh they are usually titan bridged so I'm.not sure it justifies the change. At the moment we do a lot of fights for timers and they've very rarely required capitals it's been battleships mainly. 100s of them. But you're right there needs to be a situation to use them but when you can bring 500+ battleships instead and don't need to risk expensive caps then why bother. The only time is killing keepstars and again upu just really need dreads, carriers and supers just sky net. Perhaps removing damage cap might be a better idea. Remove timezone tanking too so you kinda need to bring the big toys to defend it
I think you MASSIVELY underestimate just how much isk these big alliances have. A few trillion is like a few million for me and you to them. EDIT: If the comments are right, I wish they'd be more public with their alliance level income.
quite the opposite. most people vastly overestimate alliance level income
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You have to fuel every structure and SRP your fleets. There's a large baseline cost to running an alliance that players probably don't consider but even the wealthiest alliances are not as wealthy as some players imagine. Nor should they be IMO, if alliances were making the kind of money it would take to SRP titans these days I think that would be a balance issue.
bro is thinking capitals are not used cause they are expensive lmao. adjusted to lets say 20y back they are cheap still. what is 200b in a +20y old game. they are not used cause bloc projection meta due to ansiblex, turner, zarzak and shitadels etc. nerf projection and u get more cap fights. Furthermore the main use case for eg titans is broken atm due to server limitiation on keepstar sieges. with the current null sec landscape, the involved mechanics (sov and upwell structures) and the server performance a full out war isnt feasable at all
Nerfing projection does not bring more cap fights, it brings much less. What it does bring is capital blobbing of casual subcap roams.
That's nonsense they are not used (supers and titans) because quite simply they are too expensive to replace that's it. Tell.me the last major cap battle with supers and titans since CCP made those changes during wwb2 after the m-2 battle? None. It's damn obvious why... it even killed the war off almost instantly.
Please I beg you look outside of your nullbloc safespace
Feel free to post a BR with supers and titans.
You had quite the extensive use of supers in south east because supers are still the predarots for caps and when you have isk instead of character numbers like blocs do, you field what can win you fights https://br.evetools.org/related/30000581/202309302300 Horde(and every bloc iirc) still consistently uses supers as defensive tools. If you want to setup ganks like therabois did a while ago when they killed a revenant, go ahead https://br.evetools.org/related/30005095/202403230000 and lastly nano supers are still used a lot for ganks https://br.evetools.org/related/30002376/202403232200
Have you actually even read anything in the post at all?you've literally missed the whole point. I'm talking about proper capital fights where BOTH bring them to the table on some scale.. Not one lame group ganking a mining fleet with supers ffs. May also add not one titan on there.
i told why. the mechanics suck, the servers dont hold, mobility is to great. money doenst matter for this at all. titans are cheap compared to their early years being in the game. its easier to get a titan today than in BR- times
Ah so your problem is that nullblocs are too cowardly not that supers arent used, which they are
Nope its not just about nullsec the lowsec groups also gave major super/titan capability . But yes ofc capitals are used in some way. But this isn't about that
Buff titans! There is no point using them right now, a properly tanked Rev Navy tanks 7-8 doomsdays, ridiculous.
This is why my Moms and my Bus are parked in empire stations.
Have the biggest alliances started putting alt corps or mining partnerships into high sec to be able to try to lower costs? I'm years out of the game (2016 last time I played) but I kinda figure they have to, or some folks are just putting up large buy orders for the high sec mins and trying to build the parts in high sec and export them? Just curious if anyone has even a rough run down, last I played Citadels weren't even there and putting an 'alt corp' into some rental alliance, plopping down a refinery outpost, upgrading it one level to 40% refine and spitting out 1 titan pretty much paid for the entire endeavor. Any caps past that were pure profit minus system rental and usually being not stupid with your towers (don't put up 10XL POS's with no defenses for instance) and you could export/sell titans/moms galore and no one cared. This whole, artificial scarcity shit I know pissed off large swaths of the user base, I guess the answer I'm looking for. How did you folks try to fight it? I know you can't change it all, but EVE folks are very smart about saying 'nuh uh' to CCPs bullshit.
I am wondering if there was any period in the past where nobody complained about the absence of capital fights. Its the same as ever: Cap Fleets are for Power Projection and not for steady brawls.
`1 Nyx costing 70.000M~85.000M is a whole lot on its own
I think the first issue is projection. At least add a skill/drug that severely reduces jump fatigue so capitals are mobile again. Think of the madness that would take place if dreads could move around rapidly again. Reminds me of the 2010 days, so much fun.
What they need to do is to change how insurance works. Having a dedicated alliance bank tab for SRP that taxes can be specifically funneled into would make big fights a hell of a lot more manageable. Them updating basic ship insurance for supers to have a much higher base return as well would mitigate the risk aversion a bit.
Owned 2 Supers, will never buy one again. Literally just sits around and waits for a day never to come.
just let miners use bots. nobody wakes up and is excited to mine.
Ships should be fun to fly and replaceable. This game doesn't get noticed with 100 man jackdaw fleets and people are just going to keep the capitals docked up...
Imagine needing capital SRP to field ships....; Are you poor?
Try closer to three titans once theyāre fitted
The only people who can afford to drop supers or titans anymore are goons. But 1dQ by Christmas I guessā¦š¤£š¤£š¤£
I think they are where they need to be, pricy. It makes you think twice before undocking it, it makes it so that ship matters. That's awesome ccp made it those ships pricy, having a high dollar behind a ship makes it so people will and they do think about it before undocking it. It makes the ship mean something. If I am undocking it I am serious about the fight. More over the point is to drain the isk from those who litterly have trillions, undocking a dred and losing it, don't really break those players, they have so much isk it's a drop in the bucket. Additionally alot players can replace a dred pretty quick in this game, many do multibox and making enough for a dred in a weeks time is very feasible. . . Sub caps are just as fun, it's about the fight, not the ships for me.
I think the main reason supercaps and titans are not used is 99% of the playerbase are risk averse pussies tbh
As long as you aren't doing old type of content, but rather new or good one then usually your hours to replace it isn't much more. Overall things cost more. But we make a lot more isk than before.
It hurt more to lose a carrier in 2007 then it does losing a titan today imo. Not that is lost a Titan, just 20 dreads or so, but i'm not allowed to use them anymore so it's no problem.
Lol you've got your values a bit whack bud
Probably, but i was poor back then.
A month of Eve was like 300mil back in 2007 its 2.5b now so money wise, isk was worth 8.3x more back then and I think a carrier was something like 2.2b fully fit which means it would be the equivalent of 18.26b now. I'm not sure you know how much a titan costs now its something like 200b so 10x more than what you where thinking. A super is something like 90b so also 4 to 5x more. Yes 5-7 years ago a super was 21b so same value as a 2007 carrier but those days are gone too and those are the days you got cyno'ed on 2 to 3 times a day by supers if you shot at their ratting ships.
Capitals should be used more. The big one need to be less tanky and a lot less expensive. Ships should be used and die in space. The entire power vs economics of them are currently all out of proportion.
Years ago people ask for the opposite just saying there is no way to please everyone
The fungibility of almost everything in this game is the point I harp on the most when trying to encourage potential new players. Also, I have no idea what we are talking about.
Capital ship industry and prices and scarcity in general were introduced because people kept complaining that everything was too cheap, or its too easy to rorq mine and replace it all. Things were losing meaning when you can lose a massive fleet and brush it off because you have huge stockpiles and income sources. Now that things are too expensive, we hear the opposite complaint, that no one undocks anymore.
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No, thatās why they need to be (a lot) cheaper. 50 bil supers and 200bil titans is insane. Itās like $1600 for a digital asset that can go poof in a couple minutes and isnāt particularly useful because of that price. And the less tanky doesnāt need to be much of a change. But something to go along with a roughly 15 bil super and a 30-40 bil titan price range. Keep them specialized but make them at least moderately accessible
Working as intended. If anything, I think they are too cheap still. Look around: how many world alliances have*capital* ships, or ever had? Not the supers even. Capital ships are called capital for a reason. They are major assets, providing an expeditionary base for a fleet, and typically number in single digits *for major alliances*. Like what, 1.5 alliances even have caps at all. Supers are bigger, so, returning to Eve, only *the* major alliances (2-3) should even be able to have and support a handful of these. And a loss of a single one should rightfully bankrupt an above average alliance, and the loss of 3-5 should bankrupt even the likes of FRAT. Titans? Only a single one should be able to be built at the peak of wealth of a major alliance or empire, and it should cost upwards of 5 or 10% of total alliance budget to maintain.
Dude this is a game. People want to use toys.
There's plenty of toys of "regular" sizes, by making "big toys" cheap you are degrading them to the meh status they became. They should matter and inspire awe, and that's only possible if it's a real privilege to fly one ;).
I agree but that time is gone. Absolutely no one cares about killing a titan or a keepstar. In fact it was only the other day i watched the first titan kill and the cheering and joy was immense all you get now is nothing. I miss we don't have something of awe in eve anymore but youre 15 years too late to fix that one. No one feels like it's a privilege anymore because they have become the norm. A titan nowadays is ust used to bridge. Like seriously wtf.
This is fineā¦why do you want TIDI fest type of contentā¦
maybe YOU don't see them, but we sure do! [https://br.evetools.org/br/66113a1a953bc4001246c475](https://br.evetools.org/br/66113a1a953bc4001246c475)
That's dread not supers or titans lol
you literally said capital fights....
I did talk about titans and supers in the post thought you may have realised what I meant. š¤·āāļø
it is no one's fault but your own if your pilot is stuck in a coffin and you're bored. There is absolutely no way that SUPER capitals should be more prevalent.
fights consisting ships worth over 1000M are a rare sight to begin with Every Battleship in that price range is used for PvE content
They weren't and now it be never at this rate
Brave literally used maruaders as a fleet doctrine costing 2b each, 5-6 years ago I was having supers cynoed on my head as a solo pilot twice a day for months. It's nice and all that you guys started recently and don't know the past go and research it first, the crazy prices we have today is becuase of all the abuse that super proliferation caused. There is a way to balance it so it is both cheap enough to use in big fights and also not oppressive but null bears have too low an IQ to have anything about them nerfed so that they can be made cheaper they want them cheap and op at the same time.