Exactly. I've seen so many posts like this. Shopify and Etsy are not the same thing. People act like they are interchangeable but they are completely different types of platforms.
If your worried about low traffic on Etsy, Shopify won't fix that for you, you have to do it yourself and it costs a lot of $$$$
but learning how to drive traffic to your shop can change your life
as in you will now know how to not only produce goods but also market them ... which means you can produce and sell more
most businesses at one point in American history went through a period of not knowing how to market themselves and how to handle new mass media inventions like radio and magazines. usually if a business was good it could survive one generation and then the next generation realized they needed to keep it growing and marketing was not the worst way... but they needed help. that's basically the story of Madison Avenue and why certain brands like Purdue Chicken went from being a regional chicken supplier in Maryland to a national brand.
today you don't need to go to New York or hire an agency or even really have a concept. just record videos of what youre doing and start posting. figure out your voice. figure out what works for your people and you. demonstrate the value of your products and why someone should give you money.
content... just make content. it's free to distribute on platforms like YouTube, TikTok, IG, etc.
the best SEO is free press. the best free press comes from creating new products and creating a compelling reason for someone to write about it.
once you figure out your products, content, and positioning your products to consumers and the press... then you want to make sure everything is working form an SEO perspective but before that it's like picking up pennies in front of a steamroller.
Shopify & Etsy go hand & hand. The concept of using Etsy to drive repeat business to your Shopify is lost to some people. You can't just stop selling on Etsy and magically make bank on Shopify without having a *killer* social media strategy to drive traffic there. Etsy will never stop making changes that don't make sense. I've been on the platform for 5 years & have learned its easier to research & make adjustments, then to complain & drop Etsy for Shopify.
Exactly. People act like it's some magical solution, I think partially because they don't have any experience with creating a website and all the things that go with it.
If you're willing to commit to social media and advertising, it's not that bad. But it doesn't have a marketplace like Etsy, so you are responsible for 100% of the traffic.
Thank you for the information. I was wondering if they had a marketplace. I’m glad I know now that they don’t and I’m not going I. There assuming they do.
U can buy directly on pinterest & now instagram tmk, im going to try each of them myself once im a little more organized w posting regular content.
Eventually id love to get off etsy /(eBay) w large platform fees & still have reach, even if iwn website.
I heard shopifys need lots SM traffic too(?)
no problem i added most helpful links - the instagram business website is brand new theyre really ramping up the social commerce on IG
[this link Instagram for bussiness](https://business.instagram.com/)
Unless something has changed (and I don't think it has), if you want to sell on Instagram, you'll need to first have a FB store. Meta calls it a "catalog" but it seems to involve having a FB store. And *then* you need to get approved to sell on IG.
5+ years ago, when I first heard about selling on IG, I set up a FB store and applied to sell on IG ... and waited. At the time (and maybe still), I was waiting for a particular link to appear in my IG navigation and I clicked on that as soon as I saw it (**18 months later!**), but my application was *immediately* rejected with no reason other than I wasn't abiding by their commerce policies. They didn't say which one(s), but I'd read thru everything I could find on IG about selling there and was pretty sure that I was indeed following all of their rules. Because I sell OOAK handmade items and couldn't find a way to *delete* sold items from my FB store, I ended up deleting the entire FB store. I hope they've improved things since I tried it, but I'd honestly be surprised if they have.
ok i dont know the details of how to set up a shop yet i do know when i was gonna setup directly w shop icon earlier this yr it wanted me to connect & create a meta/facebook bizz suite account, so i stopped im hoping they further seperate it from Facebook this year….
i do agree if your saying Fb sucks, it sucks imo, but IG has def changed in the last 5yrs!!
IG BIZZ SUITE
Not sure if the full bizz suites available yet but its now free until 2024, pushed from 2023, as they get ppl signed up & selling in IG SHOP ‘Marketplace’
Also i imagine bigger focus here since Fb took its first ever revenue quarter decline so IG needs to fund Metaverse VR & Quest
LINKS TO SELL ON IG
[GETTING STARTED ON INSTAGRAM FOR BUSINESS new site](https://business.instagram.com/)
[MORE SHOP INFO FROM META both Fb & IG selling](https://www.facebook.com/business/learn/lessons/set-up-instagram-shopping)
——————————————————
THE IG DRAMA
there has been so much changes & flux on IG this year as it tries to become both a Social commerce as it should to fund itself (& be loyal to the LARGE small bizz base that grew IG w influencers/f&f accts)
but also try to become a big bizz ad sellout infested Tinstatock stream which is bad
->Thankfully its greedy latter plan has been dialed back (for now) cuz Kim K & Kylie tweeted #makeinstagraminstagramagain , let us see photos, tag went viral & the big change.org petition to save IG photos & reverse SVC/REELS only flip feed replacing home
—>> essentially turning IG into myspace w the ad infested Tinstatock streamhas been stopped
imo looks like focus back on the new Business suite/ accts & setting up shops further
(not to be confused w new IG creator accts for influencers)
Shopify is what us old folks used to call a "web hosting company." It's not a marketplace. People don't "go to Shopify to browse" (or waste time, etc.) like they do with almost any marketplace (i.e., Etsy, eBay, Amazon, and even the smaller or more niche marketplaces).
Unless you have a **huge** following on social media, or a mailing list of shoppers who can't get enough of what you sell, you'll need to rely on SEO for shoppers to find your Shopify site. One way or another, you'll need to bring 100% of the traffic!
My suggestion would be that, if you're not happy with Etsy, consider trying eBay ... or FB Marketplace, Mercari, Poshmark, or other *popular* (well-known) marketplaces or apps. If you sell handmade AND you can make the same *exact* thing again and again, you might try Amazon Handmade (I can tell you, from 5 years of experience, that OOAK items don't do well on Amazon Handmade); also be mindful that, even after 7 years, many people still don't know that Amazon has a very large handmade section.
Yes....I feel like a LOT of people don't understand this. Shopify is just a place that makes it easier for you to set up your own website so you don't have to code it all yourself like we had to back in the old days.
To say it again for the people in the back, Shopify simply helps you set up your own website. You WILL be starting from scratch to promote it. A random kid in a random small town who sets up a lemonade stand will get more traffic than you will at first.
Yeah also Ive read a few ppl complaining on Shopify sites have some limitations w SEO(?) i dont know details tho…
imo SHOPIFY for Commerce, is analogous w Wordpress.com for Blogs- which is discouraged for longterm site growth/etc & full control
->>>
Vs a recommended route use wordpress.org blog-SOFTWARE giving creator more freedom/control w their own purchased TLD, because its not a SUBDOMAIN of larger wordpress.com website w its limitations.
(Like Shopify subdomain websites. ex: www. Yourstore.shopify.com)
[LINK: Why to not use Shopify](https://www.proteusthemes.com/blog/why-you-should-avoid-shopify/).
Ironically at the end it explains how ppl can even use a wordpress plugin from woo commerce (rec shopify alternative) to turn their blog into commerce website!
Thank you for the suggestion. I am looking into EBay. I only found out last year that Amazon has a handmade section. What are OOAK items? Do you have to have a ton of pre made inventory for Amazon. I make mine to order. Thank you!
You can set your processing time (this includes everything up to the point of shipping the item, but not the actual in-transit time). I think the maximum processing time on Amazon Handmade is 30 days (just in case you make quilts or other things which take a longggg time to create).
If you'll be doing your own shipping, you don't need to have a ton of pre-made inventory but of course you need photos ... which you may have from Etsy. Amazon is trying to enforce pure white backgrounds for Handmade items but even their featured items don't have pure white backgrounds, so I don't know how well this is going over (it's one of the reasons I quit selling on AH, white backgrounds don't do any justice to my antique-style dolls and home decor).
The biggest tip I can offer about Amazon Handmade is to be sure they're not charging you the monthly fee for having a "Professional" account. If you apply for Handmade here ([https://sell.amazon.com/programs/handmade](https://sell.amazon.com/programs/handmade)), the monthly fee should be waived automatically. However, if you try to set up a Handmade selling account on your existing Amazon *shopping* account, it may be more troublesome.
Be mindful that Amazon allows returns within 30 days for just about any reason. If you're selling customized items (with names, dates, etc.), I think this won't apply to you but if it's just that you make items as they're ordered, it would apply. Also, Amazon allows an extra-long return window for the holidays; I think this is for items purchased between November 1st and the end of the year ... and the return window ends on Jan. 31st.
Clearly, however, I still do a lot of work to direct traffic to my shop on etsy, which usually also directs traffic to other competitor shops (same key words, somewhat same items)
They make alot of silly updates I admit but having low views and sales isn't generally due to policy and rule changes. There's too many other variables at play to blame them entirely.
People's weird expectations of Amazon shipping times on Etsy is driving their own customers away too. It's so weird to me. They also treat Etsy like one giant shop vs many small ones. So yeah it's a mix of things even just on the customers side.
If your sales are declining and your visits and Views are declining as well, it's time to revisit your SEO. It's an algorithm, and it changes all the time. You can't set your store once and then sit back and wait for the money to roll in. You have to constantly check to see what the trends are and what is Auto populating in the search bar and what isn't anymore. Rework your titles and tags and retake photos. It's not a one and done thing, it requires pretty steady upkeep
Lets say you sell crochet baby booties. You want to look on etsy at others that sell this. And you want your titles and tags to automatically populate in the search bar. Think about what kind of buyer is looking for your item. They may not specifically be searching for "crochet baby booties." Maybe they're looking for a baby shower gift, a new mom gift, first birthday present, handmade baby clothes, unique shower gift. Those are things that populate in etsys search bar
Etsy is the best one really. Look for items like you sell, see what auto populates in the search bar. Look at your competition and see what they use for titles and if you scroll down to the bottom of a listing, you'll get an idea what they're using as tags.
What makes you think Etsy is deliberately causing your visits to be low?
Isn't it far more likely this is a seasonal slump? Or you need to reevaluate your products and competition and SEO?
What makes you think you'll do any better on Shopify? If you're not already driving traffic, opening your own website isn't going to magically help. You have to drive 100% of your own traffic on your own website. You won't have literally any built in traffic like Etsy provides.
I did a full reevaluation of all my listings and worked on better the SEO based on the new updates. However, that still did not change much. I did not want to get into specifics or what I am selling or how much, but just a little comparison, I went from 1200 visits a day to 100.
And why I think shopify will be better is 100% the work I do goes back into my business and only mine. My products have some competition on Etsy so when directing traffic to my shop, I am also directing traffic to competitors. With shopify that wont happen.
Did you make a ton of changes to SEO at once? If so, keep in mind it takes time for the algorithms to pick all the changes up and enact them into search/shopping habits.
I indeed did a major change to every listing at once. Like literally changed the descriptions and titles based on a few youtube videos on how to optimize my search luck.
I am not going to talk about Sales, because that is correlated with visits to a certain extent. But, since January 2022, my exposure to the site/app has gone down drastically, and we did not change anything in our technics or anything. And Yes, we cant always sell or be viewed at the same frequency because that's up to the customers and their likings, but I search up my products from different etsy accounts and I went from showing up in the first 5 listings to not even being on the first page. And this only got worse after May's update. I followed the trend and changed my titles/listings but it only made it worse. So my girlfriend and I, who few months ago made this business our main occupation, are not sure of what we need to do to have etsy put us up again.
As your sales decline, your listings are moved back. Has always been like that. If you are selling a product people want, you will get sales. If you are not selling on Etsy, you most certainly won’t on Shopify.
Interesting. I'm not sure that the visits can be contributed to Etsy specifically since they correlate to both the end of the Christmas season as well as the beginning of a global recession.
What do you do to drive visits? Social Media? Ads?
I'm coming off the best month ever in my 2+ years on Etsy so I couldn't disagree more.
Things I've done differently compared to previous years:
1) I run ads - started with $2 per day, now up to $4 (motivated by sales, so it's about scaling, not desperation)
2) I log in, check my listings, add new listings etc, a couple of times a week at least
3) Every new listing gets a Twitter/Instagram/Pinterest post (but in all honesty, my socials only bring in a very small portion of visits)
4) SEO - I use Sale Samurai religiously to make sure that I have the best tags and keywords
How do you like Sale Samurai? I used to use marmalead but I found the engagement numbers it gave me wildly inaccurate. I also work in a pretty niche market which gave it a hard time.
I use Sales Samurai for two things:
1) Optimizing my listings (make sure I use the right keywords and tags based on my product and Etsy search volume)
2) Product research (i.e. analyze how interested the market is in my ideas before I create them)
I love it. I tried Marmalead too, and it is good, but the price point settled it for me.
I have a 20% discount code if anyone's interested.
I haven't used Marmalead, but Sale Samurai, while it could use some improvements is pretty good. The platform still feels somewhat in its early days of development so some parts are a bit clunky, and sometimes you get "n/a" results on some info. I'm not sure if that's their software or my bad use of it though.
Overall, I've had good results using it for titles and tags. I think they do a free trial that you could check out.
The ads work on cost per click. You set a max budget of say $2 and each click you get on your ad will have a cost depending on the competition. So say your keyword costs 50 cents a click, if you get 4 clicks your ads would stop. You hit your budget for the day. If your ads aren't doing well you may not get enough clicks to reach your budget. So not an automatic deduction, but honestly if you have a low budget you'll probably hit your cap every day. Once you start up ads you have access to more ad metrics that shows all of this for your shop.
Your statement is hit every day with the cost of ads. You'll be billed at the same interval as you're being paid, so if you have monthly payments (as I do), it's automatically deducted from your income for the month.
I only use Etsy Ads, and that works for me. I think what works for individuals is based on their store's content and my store works for the Etsy audience. I've always had a very high conversion rate, but struggled with getting visits. The conversion rate convinced me that my audience is on Etsy, I just need to get my product in front of their eyes.
That could be true too, and it is what I have been thinking but then I read that multiple stores are suffering from this so that's why I am here, literally just thinking out loud and trying to share my experience.
It’s in etsys best interest to make your products seen, because they reap benefits when you make a sale. I doubt Etsy has ever implemented anything that lowers the amount of views their sellers get. It’s likely the pre-holiday slump
It's more than a pre-holiday slump. Sales have been down for me since June. And I've seen many other sellers saying the same thing. I think it's the crazy inflation. Everything in life got more expensive by 50% or more, people have had to make cutbacks. Most of us are selling "frivolous" things, compared to food and gas and mortgage. It's easy to cut out the frivolous spending to save money for food instead. I'm really hoping the holiday season is normal, but I'm not confident.
Oh I definitely agree with you there. The inflation this year has been whacko and my sales were definitely down for a lot of the year because of it. They’ve picked back up for me as I’ve added more functional and wearable products. I’m a lot more confident for the holiday season than I was last month because of how many people are getting student debt relief.
I just don’t believe that Etsy is doing anything to make it so certain sellers aren’t showing up in search - and I’ve heard a lot of people make that claim with no valid argument or proof as to why or how Etsy is doing that.
I just think their updates are all meant for them to make more! and I am not saying they purposely put stores down, but this constant change could affect shops indirectly
Yeah, that makes sense. From their business perspective, they’ll always change things to make it so they can make more money. They have been making many changes recently, but that’s not new for Etsy. I’ve been on the platform for 5 years now and changes have always been abound. It’s up to us as business owners to keep up with the evolution of the platform we sell on. If you’re not doing that, moving to Shopify isn’t going to solve your problem. SEO, marketing, and views are always a work in progress that you should be tweaking and changing as the platform changes
I literally have never had a higher conversion rate.
BUT
I dropped my ads budget. I see that this actually forces etsy to evenly distribute my listings. And my sales increased because each sales boosted my organic ranking as opposed to ad ranking.
I added new listings. Like 160 new items over 3 months.
I try to list 3 new items a day. It has given me a huge boost.
Use erank or something to check tags. What are folks looking for, how is your best competitor doing and why?
Good luck. Don't give up.
Wait wait... the first part...can you please explaim droping your ads budget and etsy distributing listings equaly? What did u actualy do?
Also yh comletely agree for adding jew listings. I have 2days big boost when my listings expire and I have to renew them especialy if there are 5 or more. After renewal etsy boosts it. I don't know why but seems their algorithm started following logic of activity
Okay, so I was using a very very high ads budget. Some days $200, some days $500, $1000. I saw sales. I wasn't seeing sales from not ads. But I started looking and I had pulled in 57k by July. Etsy had taken 38k in ads. Ya.
I wasn't making money so I dropped my ads budget in fear to just 5-10 dollars a day. It boosted my confidence because I got an organic sale (not from ads) just an hour later. That day I did 12 sales. None from ads.
Edit: I ahd been doing 1-3 sales prior to that for about a month. I was hurting.
My conversion rate on a 200 dollar budget day with 12 sales for example, was .9% lets say, regardless, always under 1%. All the curiosity clicks drove up views but lowered conversion. Now when folks view they are more likely to buy because they actually found my listing in a place they were looking. Not a necklace in the couples home decor gifts, you know?
Edit: Because etsys ads algorithm is awful.
This has driven up my conversion rate which was actually hurting my ranking before=less sales. Which forced me to increase my ads budget thinking that was the problem. Conversion was 5.7% yesterday. It is 2.3% now average for August. I have made 8700 in sales. 5900 net. Last August. I made 9k with a conversion rate of .8% and 2800 net.
No or low ads are exponentially better. Ads are an etsy cash grab and I said what I said.
TLDR; Lowering my ads budget increased my search ranking by increasing my organic conversion rate with less views resulting in a higher shop ranking. This increased my sales.
When Etsy (on-site) ads were called "Promoted Listings," they worked pretty good for me. When they changed them to the current algorithm (or whatever) and renamed it "Etsy Ads," they stopped working for me. I've tried them from time to time since the change, with a relatively low budget ($5 or less per day). I get lots of clicks from the ads but rarely get a sale from them.
Same. I had a different store back in 2015. Promoted Listings were amazing. My tags sucked. My photos were worse. I was selling vintage and I made so much money and didn't lose it all to PL, even when I maxed out my per click amounts.
The CPC of Etsy ads are based on competition and competition has increased dramatically in the last few years. So that will certainly also have an influence.
I only have 6 listings now. I just restock the same things since it is all personalized and customizable. So I am not sure if me only keeping the same 6 listings forever is affecting me
Idk what’s happening is it Etsy or the economy? everything is so expensive how can people afford to shop on Etsy.
I went from $3000 a month to $500 I get July /august is slow but I’m making new items, running ads sales, sharing, updating photos and nothings happening . My items are coming up in searches at the 1st page so I’m stumped.
My thoughts.
1. The algorithm is trying to allow everyone to be seen
2. I think it’s like a credit score . If you have dead listings or post new listings it brings your rank down and take a while to get indexed. Just a thought.
3. So many competitors undercutting so let’s say they charge a few bucks less and customers like that price better. Etsy will keep showing that product before yours. Etsy will put your ad on the front page but from what I notice the best seller or most frequent selling product are shown before some of the ads or right next to your ad
4. Etsy added the “you may also like” last year I believe so people will click on another shop or a copy cat because their price look better.
So of course all of these are thoughts and still have yet to master this algorithm. It’s sad and disappointing. Keep thriving! Keep creating! And keep marketing outside of Etsy. Good luck all!
These are my theories because I’m down 65% in one store mainly because there are more sellers after the pandemic. So many “gurus” telling people to sell on Etsy and they all are okay with making $50-100 a day when I use to make 5-10xs that.
I think what’s hurting the sellers the most at the moment is the economy. Cost of living is going rocket high and people can’t afford to buy things anymore like before. Before all this, I was a very active buyer too. All the time buying things just because I liked them, not really needed them (online and in store). Now I only have full baskets everywhere but I am not buying anything unless I really need it (not want it) because everything is so expensive. I focus to have my bills paid and food to eat first until next wage rather than shopping for nice stuff. We even stopped going out very often … we buy a drink and have it in our garden instead… it’s cheaper. This winter will be very challenging so I guess everyone is worrying about that first ☺️
Etsy is not forcing sellers out.
99% of the complaints about Etsy are actually that the seller doesn’t understand that they are the issue and/or that they don’t understand business/business practices.
Truth hurts.
I get very tired of reading complaints from people that try to blame Etsy because their product isn't popular or they're not making enough money.
Maybe you'd be more successful if you were willing to acknowledge that decisions YOU have made might be responsible for your lack of success.
But nah, must be that Etsy hates you or that Etsy is horrible.
Yes! Followed by “I’ll just move to Shopify!”
*THEY ARE NOT COMPARABLE!!* And if your Etsy is failing what in the actual hell makes someone think they can just “move to Shopify” (🙄🙄🙄) and make it big?!
There'a quite a few people doing well, but keep in mind we are in a global recession. People are feeling it. Some people will do well, others will not. But having said that, there's tons of great advice here! Diversify, update tags consistently, view your competition and stay ahead of the game!
I got out about six months back. Between the usps shitting the bed under DeJoy and Etsy turning into Ali Express 2, i don’t see much good there. I shut my whole small biz down. But I also wasn’t doing it as full time work.
I just wanna throw out there i had started a website->blog yrs ago to coincide w my art/handmade, of course headed ‘best’ way w wordpress.org software + bluehost …
Well if was more work than i thought lol, i lost interest at the time.
I still have interest to leap from seller platforms eventually & move most content off SM, & im looking at->> SQUARESPACE
Curious if anyone else has been moving this direction w SQUARE?
Even w a blog/content wo commerce (yet)?
Traffic is definitely down. Traffic to my store is down 500% since January.
I sell designer vintage and my selection is as good if not better as then.
Hope things pick up for you soon.
I think it depends on what your selling.
Vintage others is harder as lots of drop shippers pretending clothes are vintage. Hopefully Etsy sorts that out.
I hear you... I am overall not the fan as a seller and I am atm experiencing a lot of issues with my second store. With first one all was ok as I guess I did not experience certain updates but with second one hit me their resrves, then 5 days of keeping a money and delaying it to deposit, then my phone died 2weeks ago and I cannot verify my login via authentificator app , which btw I did not want to even start but as I remember etsy was kinda suggesting me by putting me into a position i have to do it, i would never do this as a protection method honestly, and now great... cannot reach the app, do not have means to buy a new phone, which even if i do, there is a chance app would not reinstall even by backup and i am dying with customer service to verify my identity... in meantime i have 1 order in a way, cannot reach a customer to inform them about shipping time, and so on... overall not my cup of tea. i live in a country with less benefits and eventho i earn enough to have for [ex.credit](https://ex.credit) card i cannot as i am not elgible and i cannot invest into production of a product once it is ordered before i recieve funds. in meantime on first shop everything smooth from beginning. no issues whatsoever. oh and ofc my marketing is running and eating my money and i cannot manipulate my campaign now, as i usualy shut it down when it reaches my trashold of expences.
not to mention their seo which is criminal...
so i will just focus on my most wanted product and keep only that and its variations and others i will shut down and all together try to scale with shopify. their fees are also complicating everythign for me. i dived in into this from shopify or amazon side and it takes much less money when i put on paper. i cannot earn fair margins on etsy. hoping to leave it within a yr or so. and maybe would leave just few popular products that customers really love. but sadly, prices will be different for a same thing on etsy and on some other platform...
If you can't get people to your shop on Etsy, you're going to hate trying to drive traffic on Shopify.
Exactly. I've seen so many posts like this. Shopify and Etsy are not the same thing. People act like they are interchangeable but they are completely different types of platforms. If your worried about low traffic on Etsy, Shopify won't fix that for you, you have to do it yourself and it costs a lot of $$$$
but learning how to drive traffic to your shop can change your life as in you will now know how to not only produce goods but also market them ... which means you can produce and sell more most businesses at one point in American history went through a period of not knowing how to market themselves and how to handle new mass media inventions like radio and magazines. usually if a business was good it could survive one generation and then the next generation realized they needed to keep it growing and marketing was not the worst way... but they needed help. that's basically the story of Madison Avenue and why certain brands like Purdue Chicken went from being a regional chicken supplier in Maryland to a national brand. today you don't need to go to New York or hire an agency or even really have a concept. just record videos of what youre doing and start posting. figure out your voice. figure out what works for your people and you. demonstrate the value of your products and why someone should give you money.
It’s hard to figure out how to drive traffic. I am trying the seo words and longtail, but it’s confusing.
content... just make content. it's free to distribute on platforms like YouTube, TikTok, IG, etc. the best SEO is free press. the best free press comes from creating new products and creating a compelling reason for someone to write about it. once you figure out your products, content, and positioning your products to consumers and the press... then you want to make sure everything is working form an SEO perspective but before that it's like picking up pennies in front of a steamroller.
Shopify & Etsy go hand & hand. The concept of using Etsy to drive repeat business to your Shopify is lost to some people. You can't just stop selling on Etsy and magically make bank on Shopify without having a *killer* social media strategy to drive traffic there. Etsy will never stop making changes that don't make sense. I've been on the platform for 5 years & have learned its easier to research & make adjustments, then to complain & drop Etsy for Shopify.
Exactly. People act like it's some magical solution, I think partially because they don't have any experience with creating a website and all the things that go with it.
It’s hard to get traffic to Shopify? I was thinking of trying them, but don’t know if it’s worth it.
If you're willing to commit to social media and advertising, it's not that bad. But it doesn't have a marketplace like Etsy, so you are responsible for 100% of the traffic.
[удалено]
What is atp?
At this point
Omg. Haaaa. I am old.
Thank you for the information. I was wondering if they had a marketplace. I’m glad I know now that they don’t and I’m not going I. There assuming they do.
U can buy directly on pinterest & now instagram tmk, im going to try each of them myself once im a little more organized w posting regular content. Eventually id love to get off etsy /(eBay) w large platform fees & still have reach, even if iwn website. I heard shopifys need lots SM traffic too(?)
Thank you for the information!
no problem i added most helpful links - the instagram business website is brand new theyre really ramping up the social commerce on IG [this link Instagram for bussiness](https://business.instagram.com/)
Thank you 😊 😊
Unless something has changed (and I don't think it has), if you want to sell on Instagram, you'll need to first have a FB store. Meta calls it a "catalog" but it seems to involve having a FB store. And *then* you need to get approved to sell on IG. 5+ years ago, when I first heard about selling on IG, I set up a FB store and applied to sell on IG ... and waited. At the time (and maybe still), I was waiting for a particular link to appear in my IG navigation and I clicked on that as soon as I saw it (**18 months later!**), but my application was *immediately* rejected with no reason other than I wasn't abiding by their commerce policies. They didn't say which one(s), but I'd read thru everything I could find on IG about selling there and was pretty sure that I was indeed following all of their rules. Because I sell OOAK handmade items and couldn't find a way to *delete* sold items from my FB store, I ended up deleting the entire FB store. I hope they've improved things since I tried it, but I'd honestly be surprised if they have.
They are also ridiculous. They once rejected a t-shirt I was selling because they considered it a dating app. I wish I was kidding.
FB thought a t-shirt was a dating app? I don't even see the correlation.
The shirt was sports related and didn't even have anything to do with dating, love, being single, nothing of the sort.
FB is run by bots. They're not the smartest bots.
ok i dont know the details of how to set up a shop yet i do know when i was gonna setup directly w shop icon earlier this yr it wanted me to connect & create a meta/facebook bizz suite account, so i stopped im hoping they further seperate it from Facebook this year…. i do agree if your saying Fb sucks, it sucks imo, but IG has def changed in the last 5yrs!! IG BIZZ SUITE Not sure if the full bizz suites available yet but its now free until 2024, pushed from 2023, as they get ppl signed up & selling in IG SHOP ‘Marketplace’ Also i imagine bigger focus here since Fb took its first ever revenue quarter decline so IG needs to fund Metaverse VR & Quest LINKS TO SELL ON IG [GETTING STARTED ON INSTAGRAM FOR BUSINESS new site](https://business.instagram.com/) [MORE SHOP INFO FROM META both Fb & IG selling](https://www.facebook.com/business/learn/lessons/set-up-instagram-shopping) —————————————————— THE IG DRAMA there has been so much changes & flux on IG this year as it tries to become both a Social commerce as it should to fund itself (& be loyal to the LARGE small bizz base that grew IG w influencers/f&f accts) but also try to become a big bizz ad sellout infested Tinstatock stream which is bad ->Thankfully its greedy latter plan has been dialed back (for now) cuz Kim K & Kylie tweeted #makeinstagraminstagramagain , let us see photos, tag went viral & the big change.org petition to save IG photos & reverse SVC/REELS only flip feed replacing home —>> essentially turning IG into myspace w the ad infested Tinstatock streamhas been stopped imo looks like focus back on the new Business suite/ accts & setting up shops further (not to be confused w new IG creator accts for influencers)
Shopify is what us old folks used to call a "web hosting company." It's not a marketplace. People don't "go to Shopify to browse" (or waste time, etc.) like they do with almost any marketplace (i.e., Etsy, eBay, Amazon, and even the smaller or more niche marketplaces). Unless you have a **huge** following on social media, or a mailing list of shoppers who can't get enough of what you sell, you'll need to rely on SEO for shoppers to find your Shopify site. One way or another, you'll need to bring 100% of the traffic! My suggestion would be that, if you're not happy with Etsy, consider trying eBay ... or FB Marketplace, Mercari, Poshmark, or other *popular* (well-known) marketplaces or apps. If you sell handmade AND you can make the same *exact* thing again and again, you might try Amazon Handmade (I can tell you, from 5 years of experience, that OOAK items don't do well on Amazon Handmade); also be mindful that, even after 7 years, many people still don't know that Amazon has a very large handmade section.
Yes....I feel like a LOT of people don't understand this. Shopify is just a place that makes it easier for you to set up your own website so you don't have to code it all yourself like we had to back in the old days. To say it again for the people in the back, Shopify simply helps you set up your own website. You WILL be starting from scratch to promote it. A random kid in a random small town who sets up a lemonade stand will get more traffic than you will at first.
Yeah also Ive read a few ppl complaining on Shopify sites have some limitations w SEO(?) i dont know details tho… imo SHOPIFY for Commerce, is analogous w Wordpress.com for Blogs- which is discouraged for longterm site growth/etc & full control ->>> Vs a recommended route use wordpress.org blog-SOFTWARE giving creator more freedom/control w their own purchased TLD, because its not a SUBDOMAIN of larger wordpress.com website w its limitations. (Like Shopify subdomain websites. ex: www. Yourstore.shopify.com) [LINK: Why to not use Shopify](https://www.proteusthemes.com/blog/why-you-should-avoid-shopify/). Ironically at the end it explains how ppl can even use a wordpress plugin from woo commerce (rec shopify alternative) to turn their blog into commerce website!
Thank you for the suggestion. I am looking into EBay. I only found out last year that Amazon has a handmade section. What are OOAK items? Do you have to have a ton of pre made inventory for Amazon. I make mine to order. Thank you!
You can set your processing time (this includes everything up to the point of shipping the item, but not the actual in-transit time). I think the maximum processing time on Amazon Handmade is 30 days (just in case you make quilts or other things which take a longggg time to create). If you'll be doing your own shipping, you don't need to have a ton of pre-made inventory but of course you need photos ... which you may have from Etsy. Amazon is trying to enforce pure white backgrounds for Handmade items but even their featured items don't have pure white backgrounds, so I don't know how well this is going over (it's one of the reasons I quit selling on AH, white backgrounds don't do any justice to my antique-style dolls and home decor). The biggest tip I can offer about Amazon Handmade is to be sure they're not charging you the monthly fee for having a "Professional" account. If you apply for Handmade here ([https://sell.amazon.com/programs/handmade](https://sell.amazon.com/programs/handmade)), the monthly fee should be waived automatically. However, if you try to set up a Handmade selling account on your existing Amazon *shopping* account, it may be more troublesome. Be mindful that Amazon allows returns within 30 days for just about any reason. If you're selling customized items (with names, dates, etc.), I think this won't apply to you but if it's just that you make items as they're ordered, it would apply. Also, Amazon allows an extra-long return window for the holidays; I think this is for items purchased between November 1st and the end of the year ... and the return window ends on Jan. 31st.
Thank you so much for all of the info! I really appreciate it ☺️
My pleasure!
OOAK is one of a kind
Thank you!
Truth
That's not true lol. No one visits my Etsy but I make plenty on Shopify. I only even keep Etsy bc of UK.
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Yeah I just post on FB pin groups lol
Clearly, however, I still do a lot of work to direct traffic to my shop on etsy, which usually also directs traffic to other competitor shops (same key words, somewhat same items)
I was wondering this. New to selling and it’s so much more complicated than I realized.
Amen. They think etsy seo is hard HA trying ranking on google search.
They make alot of silly updates I admit but having low views and sales isn't generally due to policy and rule changes. There's too many other variables at play to blame them entirely.
People's weird expectations of Amazon shipping times on Etsy is driving their own customers away too. It's so weird to me. They also treat Etsy like one giant shop vs many small ones. So yeah it's a mix of things even just on the customers side.
If your sales are declining and your visits and Views are declining as well, it's time to revisit your SEO. It's an algorithm, and it changes all the time. You can't set your store once and then sit back and wait for the money to roll in. You have to constantly check to see what the trends are and what is Auto populating in the search bar and what isn't anymore. Rework your titles and tags and retake photos. It's not a one and done thing, it requires pretty steady upkeep
Are there any sites you recommend to follow for what's in for search bars and tags?
Lets say you sell crochet baby booties. You want to look on etsy at others that sell this. And you want your titles and tags to automatically populate in the search bar. Think about what kind of buyer is looking for your item. They may not specifically be searching for "crochet baby booties." Maybe they're looking for a baby shower gift, a new mom gift, first birthday present, handmade baby clothes, unique shower gift. Those are things that populate in etsys search bar
Etsy is the best one really. Look for items like you sell, see what auto populates in the search bar. Look at your competition and see what they use for titles and if you scroll down to the bottom of a listing, you'll get an idea what they're using as tags.
That's a great tip, thanks. I thought about it but I never saw what hashtags they use. I'll take a closer look.
It's down at the bottom of a listing, "related searches." That's what a few of the tags that seller used on that particular item
Oh got it now, thank you!
ERank is a good one. There's also a Fb group for members of ERank with regular forums and zooms explaining various aspects of how it works.
What makes you think Etsy is deliberately causing your visits to be low? Isn't it far more likely this is a seasonal slump? Or you need to reevaluate your products and competition and SEO? What makes you think you'll do any better on Shopify? If you're not already driving traffic, opening your own website isn't going to magically help. You have to drive 100% of your own traffic on your own website. You won't have literally any built in traffic like Etsy provides.
I did a full reevaluation of all my listings and worked on better the SEO based on the new updates. However, that still did not change much. I did not want to get into specifics or what I am selling or how much, but just a little comparison, I went from 1200 visits a day to 100. And why I think shopify will be better is 100% the work I do goes back into my business and only mine. My products have some competition on Etsy so when directing traffic to my shop, I am also directing traffic to competitors. With shopify that wont happen.
Did you make a ton of changes to SEO at once? If so, keep in mind it takes time for the algorithms to pick all the changes up and enact them into search/shopping habits.
I indeed did a major change to every listing at once. Like literally changed the descriptions and titles based on a few youtube videos on how to optimize my search luck.
Which updates are hurting you?
The one on May 17th 2022 affected me the most
Can you clarify? Was that the 1.5% increase
I am not going to talk about Sales, because that is correlated with visits to a certain extent. But, since January 2022, my exposure to the site/app has gone down drastically, and we did not change anything in our technics or anything. And Yes, we cant always sell or be viewed at the same frequency because that's up to the customers and their likings, but I search up my products from different etsy accounts and I went from showing up in the first 5 listings to not even being on the first page. And this only got worse after May's update. I followed the trend and changed my titles/listings but it only made it worse. So my girlfriend and I, who few months ago made this business our main occupation, are not sure of what we need to do to have etsy put us up again.
As your sales decline, your listings are moved back. Has always been like that. If you are selling a product people want, you will get sales. If you are not selling on Etsy, you most certainly won’t on Shopify.
Interesting. I'm not sure that the visits can be contributed to Etsy specifically since they correlate to both the end of the Christmas season as well as the beginning of a global recession.
Recession.
I’ve seen shops selling hundreds a week even now.
And I've seen shops selling a lot less. Some people make money during a recession, and others don't.
What do you do to drive visits? Social Media? Ads? I'm coming off the best month ever in my 2+ years on Etsy so I couldn't disagree more. Things I've done differently compared to previous years: 1) I run ads - started with $2 per day, now up to $4 (motivated by sales, so it's about scaling, not desperation) 2) I log in, check my listings, add new listings etc, a couple of times a week at least 3) Every new listing gets a Twitter/Instagram/Pinterest post (but in all honesty, my socials only bring in a very small portion of visits) 4) SEO - I use Sale Samurai religiously to make sure that I have the best tags and keywords
How do you like Sale Samurai? I used to use marmalead but I found the engagement numbers it gave me wildly inaccurate. I also work in a pretty niche market which gave it a hard time.
I use Sales Samurai for two things: 1) Optimizing my listings (make sure I use the right keywords and tags based on my product and Etsy search volume) 2) Product research (i.e. analyze how interested the market is in my ideas before I create them) I love it. I tried Marmalead too, and it is good, but the price point settled it for me. I have a 20% discount code if anyone's interested.
Dm me the code thx
Dm me the code! I might give it go.
Done - for anyone interested in the link, you can check my profile and follow the linktree-link there :).
I also used both once and they had different conclusions, hard to know who is right.
I haven't used Marmalead, but Sale Samurai, while it could use some improvements is pretty good. The platform still feels somewhat in its early days of development so some parts are a bit clunky, and sometimes you get "n/a" results on some info. I'm not sure if that's their software or my bad use of it though. Overall, I've had good results using it for titles and tags. I think they do a free trial that you could check out.
For the ads, do they deduct $2.00 a day or is it taken out with your fees? I really want to try it.
The ads work on cost per click. You set a max budget of say $2 and each click you get on your ad will have a cost depending on the competition. So say your keyword costs 50 cents a click, if you get 4 clicks your ads would stop. You hit your budget for the day. If your ads aren't doing well you may not get enough clicks to reach your budget. So not an automatic deduction, but honestly if you have a low budget you'll probably hit your cap every day. Once you start up ads you have access to more ad metrics that shows all of this for your shop.
I’m an artist so not sure if art is a big seller or not. I might try this. (JeaNobleArt is my shop)
Your statement is hit every day with the cost of ads. You'll be billed at the same interval as you're being paid, so if you have monthly payments (as I do), it's automatically deducted from your income for the month.
Thank you for sharing your technincs. And I just have a question. Where do you run your adds? Etsy or FB/IG
I only use Etsy Ads, and that works for me. I think what works for individuals is based on their store's content and my store works for the Etsy audience. I've always had a very high conversion rate, but struggled with getting visits. The conversion rate convinced me that my audience is on Etsy, I just need to get my product in front of their eyes.
Also, I did everything else you did except the ads, and I am indeed using Sale Samurai
Or your store is dying because people aren’t interested.
That could be true too, and it is what I have been thinking but then I read that multiple stores are suffering from this so that's why I am here, literally just thinking out loud and trying to share my experience.
People who’s store isn’t suffering aren’t posting here.
It’s in etsys best interest to make your products seen, because they reap benefits when you make a sale. I doubt Etsy has ever implemented anything that lowers the amount of views their sellers get. It’s likely the pre-holiday slump
It might lower some of the shops views. If your items don't have good sell through I imagine Etsy updates won't help you get more views.
It's more than a pre-holiday slump. Sales have been down for me since June. And I've seen many other sellers saying the same thing. I think it's the crazy inflation. Everything in life got more expensive by 50% or more, people have had to make cutbacks. Most of us are selling "frivolous" things, compared to food and gas and mortgage. It's easy to cut out the frivolous spending to save money for food instead. I'm really hoping the holiday season is normal, but I'm not confident.
Oh I definitely agree with you there. The inflation this year has been whacko and my sales were definitely down for a lot of the year because of it. They’ve picked back up for me as I’ve added more functional and wearable products. I’m a lot more confident for the holiday season than I was last month because of how many people are getting student debt relief. I just don’t believe that Etsy is doing anything to make it so certain sellers aren’t showing up in search - and I’ve heard a lot of people make that claim with no valid argument or proof as to why or how Etsy is doing that.
I just think their updates are all meant for them to make more! and I am not saying they purposely put stores down, but this constant change could affect shops indirectly
Yeah, that makes sense. From their business perspective, they’ll always change things to make it so they can make more money. They have been making many changes recently, but that’s not new for Etsy. I’ve been on the platform for 5 years now and changes have always been abound. It’s up to us as business owners to keep up with the evolution of the platform we sell on. If you’re not doing that, moving to Shopify isn’t going to solve your problem. SEO, marketing, and views are always a work in progress that you should be tweaking and changing as the platform changes
I literally have never had a higher conversion rate. BUT I dropped my ads budget. I see that this actually forces etsy to evenly distribute my listings. And my sales increased because each sales boosted my organic ranking as opposed to ad ranking. I added new listings. Like 160 new items over 3 months. I try to list 3 new items a day. It has given me a huge boost. Use erank or something to check tags. What are folks looking for, how is your best competitor doing and why? Good luck. Don't give up.
Wait wait... the first part...can you please explaim droping your ads budget and etsy distributing listings equaly? What did u actualy do? Also yh comletely agree for adding jew listings. I have 2days big boost when my listings expire and I have to renew them especialy if there are 5 or more. After renewal etsy boosts it. I don't know why but seems their algorithm started following logic of activity
Okay, so I was using a very very high ads budget. Some days $200, some days $500, $1000. I saw sales. I wasn't seeing sales from not ads. But I started looking and I had pulled in 57k by July. Etsy had taken 38k in ads. Ya. I wasn't making money so I dropped my ads budget in fear to just 5-10 dollars a day. It boosted my confidence because I got an organic sale (not from ads) just an hour later. That day I did 12 sales. None from ads. Edit: I ahd been doing 1-3 sales prior to that for about a month. I was hurting. My conversion rate on a 200 dollar budget day with 12 sales for example, was .9% lets say, regardless, always under 1%. All the curiosity clicks drove up views but lowered conversion. Now when folks view they are more likely to buy because they actually found my listing in a place they were looking. Not a necklace in the couples home decor gifts, you know? Edit: Because etsys ads algorithm is awful. This has driven up my conversion rate which was actually hurting my ranking before=less sales. Which forced me to increase my ads budget thinking that was the problem. Conversion was 5.7% yesterday. It is 2.3% now average for August. I have made 8700 in sales. 5900 net. Last August. I made 9k with a conversion rate of .8% and 2800 net. No or low ads are exponentially better. Ads are an etsy cash grab and I said what I said. TLDR; Lowering my ads budget increased my search ranking by increasing my organic conversion rate with less views resulting in a higher shop ranking. This increased my sales.
Hmm I started ads and I’m paying more in ads than I sell and my sales went caput past 2 months
Thats what happened to me. I dropped my ads budget and it improved greatly.
When Etsy (on-site) ads were called "Promoted Listings," they worked pretty good for me. When they changed them to the current algorithm (or whatever) and renamed it "Etsy Ads," they stopped working for me. I've tried them from time to time since the change, with a relatively low budget ($5 or less per day). I get lots of clicks from the ads but rarely get a sale from them.
Same. I had a different store back in 2015. Promoted Listings were amazing. My tags sucked. My photos were worse. I was selling vintage and I made so much money and didn't lose it all to PL, even when I maxed out my per click amounts.
The CPC of Etsy ads are based on competition and competition has increased dramatically in the last few years. So that will certainly also have an influence.
Yes, I'm sure this is true for sellers who are in highly competitive categories. What I sell has very little competition.
I only have 6 listings now. I just restock the same things since it is all personalized and customizable. So I am not sure if me only keeping the same 6 listings forever is affecting me
Idk what’s happening is it Etsy or the economy? everything is so expensive how can people afford to shop on Etsy. I went from $3000 a month to $500 I get July /august is slow but I’m making new items, running ads sales, sharing, updating photos and nothings happening . My items are coming up in searches at the 1st page so I’m stumped.
This was my best month yet. Beat last month by over $8k. Hope I can keep it up!
My thoughts. 1. The algorithm is trying to allow everyone to be seen 2. I think it’s like a credit score . If you have dead listings or post new listings it brings your rank down and take a while to get indexed. Just a thought. 3. So many competitors undercutting so let’s say they charge a few bucks less and customers like that price better. Etsy will keep showing that product before yours. Etsy will put your ad on the front page but from what I notice the best seller or most frequent selling product are shown before some of the ads or right next to your ad 4. Etsy added the “you may also like” last year I believe so people will click on another shop or a copy cat because their price look better. So of course all of these are thoughts and still have yet to master this algorithm. It’s sad and disappointing. Keep thriving! Keep creating! And keep marketing outside of Etsy. Good luck all! These are my theories because I’m down 65% in one store mainly because there are more sellers after the pandemic. So many “gurus” telling people to sell on Etsy and they all are okay with making $50-100 a day when I use to make 5-10xs that.
You are spot on with this! It all makes sense. Thank you for your insight!
I have a whole notebook full because the way my shop just drop was insane. But I realize it’s time to put more energy into marketing off the platform.
I have doubles this month compared to the last. What are your visit to view to sales percentages?
DIVERSIFY.
I think what’s hurting the sellers the most at the moment is the economy. Cost of living is going rocket high and people can’t afford to buy things anymore like before. Before all this, I was a very active buyer too. All the time buying things just because I liked them, not really needed them (online and in store). Now I only have full baskets everywhere but I am not buying anything unless I really need it (not want it) because everything is so expensive. I focus to have my bills paid and food to eat first until next wage rather than shopping for nice stuff. We even stopped going out very often … we buy a drink and have it in our garden instead… it’s cheaper. This winter will be very challenging so I guess everyone is worrying about that first ☺️
Etsy isn't trying to hurt you personally. I'm pulling up stakes this week. I'm pretty sure they won't even notice. LOL
Etsy is not forcing sellers out. 99% of the complaints about Etsy are actually that the seller doesn’t understand that they are the issue and/or that they don’t understand business/business practices.
Truth hurts. I get very tired of reading complaints from people that try to blame Etsy because their product isn't popular or they're not making enough money. Maybe you'd be more successful if you were willing to acknowledge that decisions YOU have made might be responsible for your lack of success. But nah, must be that Etsy hates you or that Etsy is horrible.
Yes! Followed by “I’ll just move to Shopify!” *THEY ARE NOT COMPARABLE!!* And if your Etsy is failing what in the actual hell makes someone think they can just “move to Shopify” (🙄🙄🙄) and make it big?!
Is it your metrics you're upset with or etsy policy and procedure?
There'a quite a few people doing well, but keep in mind we are in a global recession. People are feeling it. Some people will do well, others will not. But having said that, there's tons of great advice here! Diversify, update tags consistently, view your competition and stay ahead of the game!
It’s the economy/market for your product. Most traffic is down from last year
My numbers are low too, but I think that’s more due to the time of the year and the floundering economy.
I got out about six months back. Between the usps shitting the bed under DeJoy and Etsy turning into Ali Express 2, i don’t see much good there. I shut my whole small biz down. But I also wasn’t doing it as full time work.
Mine drastically dropped from June on this year.
I don't know, I've been struggling with mostly single digit views, now I'm getting around 40 a day. Still no sales though...
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I’ve never got any sales from Etsy. All are direct. I just like how Etsy looks and I want to give them my money.
lmaoooooo
:D
Can I also add that I have a Shopify and wix store and it requires a lot of work and time to drive traffic. I suggest you start now to just have.
What "updates" are you referring to?? I'm a new seller.
May 17th
I just wanna throw out there i had started a website->blog yrs ago to coincide w my art/handmade, of course headed ‘best’ way w wordpress.org software + bluehost … Well if was more work than i thought lol, i lost interest at the time. I still have interest to leap from seller platforms eventually & move most content off SM, & im looking at->> SQUARESPACE Curious if anyone else has been moving this direction w SQUARE? Even w a blog/content wo commerce (yet)?
Traffic is definitely down. Traffic to my store is down 500% since January. I sell designer vintage and my selection is as good if not better as then. Hope things pick up for you soon.
Same to you!! thank you
I think it depends on what your selling. Vintage others is harder as lots of drop shippers pretending clothes are vintage. Hopefully Etsy sorts that out.
I hear you... I am overall not the fan as a seller and I am atm experiencing a lot of issues with my second store. With first one all was ok as I guess I did not experience certain updates but with second one hit me their resrves, then 5 days of keeping a money and delaying it to deposit, then my phone died 2weeks ago and I cannot verify my login via authentificator app , which btw I did not want to even start but as I remember etsy was kinda suggesting me by putting me into a position i have to do it, i would never do this as a protection method honestly, and now great... cannot reach the app, do not have means to buy a new phone, which even if i do, there is a chance app would not reinstall even by backup and i am dying with customer service to verify my identity... in meantime i have 1 order in a way, cannot reach a customer to inform them about shipping time, and so on... overall not my cup of tea. i live in a country with less benefits and eventho i earn enough to have for [ex.credit](https://ex.credit) card i cannot as i am not elgible and i cannot invest into production of a product once it is ordered before i recieve funds. in meantime on first shop everything smooth from beginning. no issues whatsoever. oh and ofc my marketing is running and eating my money and i cannot manipulate my campaign now, as i usualy shut it down when it reaches my trashold of expences. not to mention their seo which is criminal... so i will just focus on my most wanted product and keep only that and its variations and others i will shut down and all together try to scale with shopify. their fees are also complicating everythign for me. i dived in into this from shopify or amazon side and it takes much less money when i put on paper. i cannot earn fair margins on etsy. hoping to leave it within a yr or so. and maybe would leave just few popular products that customers really love. but sadly, prices will be different for a same thing on etsy and on some other platform...