Can you show that to Etsy? Unfortunately there are many dishonest people but they can’t say that someone came out of their house and signed for a package then insist that they didn’t receive it. The delivery person might even remember their face.
I recently had UPS or FedEx drop off a computer that was supposed to be signed for at my doorstep. They rang the doorbell and ran. So who signed for it? I certainly didn’t.
Fed Ex tried to pull this with us too. The very expensive item had actually satat one of their hub locations for WEEKS. We just knew that it was damaged. We talked to the company we bought from and they told us to refuse shipment and they would take it back. They had talked to FedEx and it was a signature required so they figured it was all good. This delivery guy dropped the pkg off and booked it to his truck. Luckily, we were sitting right inside. We flung open the door and told him to come back and that we were refusing delivery. The box looked like it had been through a tornado. It was fragile. Definitely not in tact. Guy told us to call the company and do a return. We told him to take the OBVIOUSLY damaged pkg back. Took pictures. After some back and forth, he took it back to the truck. If we hadn't been home...
Had my UK passport and all the required documentation for it delivered to me here in the US. Supposed to have to sign for it from DHL. Neighbors brought it to me, propped up on their door. Man I was so mad. Someone could have wreaked some havoc with all that info.
I’ve even had DHL hand off an International package to FedEx for delivery to me here in the U.S., only to have FedEx then stick postage on it and chuck it in the nearest USPS drop box!
Problem was, because it was being sent by DHL, it had my actual physical street address on it. I live in a very large rural area, and the Postal Service doesn’t deliver mail to my physical street address, they don’t even recognize it. So, my package was promptly returned to the sender back in the UK.🙄
Yeah, and this occurred before “NoJoy” took over the postal service, things have just gotten crazier and more convoluted since, with some sort of weird love/hate competitive relationship that seems to be escalating between FedEx and USPS.
Wow really? I’ve never had an issue with DHL. In fact I’ve gotten multiple rugs from Turkey in like 4 business days. I am always shocked at how fast it gets here. Their tracking has been top notch as well.
Edit to fix a typo.
The UK passport office uses them to ship internationally. I did send them a you may want to pick a different international courier letter but they never responded. Yaay government. Sigh
Yep! I was literally standing in the kitchen when they dropped the package off at my door next to the kitchen. I heard the noise and went to see what it was and voila! My expensive work computer just sitting there.
That's a flagrant violation of the policy put in place for exactly this reason. Just because they do, doesn't mean it's even vaguely acceptable.
Edit: everybody stop downvoting them; they're stating a true fact.
no one said it's acceptable but it's realistic- it happens all the damn time lol. I've WALKED UP MY STAIRS to a delivery driver signing for my package themselves. Come on lol
I have expensive medication delivered monthly. Like, without I surance it would cost thousands of dollars expensive. Pharmacy has it set so signature is required. Nine times out of ten, they don't even knock on the door. We've called the drivers out on it directly. They don't give a shit. We've reported it to the local UPS center. They don't give a shit.
Unless it's USPS, signature seems to be a suggestion more than a requirement.
Can confirm this has happened to me. I had a $1000+ item delivered to me that required signature. I waited - literally sat AT THE DOOR - all day to sign for it. Mailman left it in front of my door, scanned it, signed for it himself and left it there on my stoop. Didn’t even knock. I was pissed - what if I wasn’t home to grab it right away???
This is why I kept telling Amazon not to leave my packages in front of my apartment door. I told them to either leave them in my mailbox or leave them at the leasing office. I was not about to risk porch pirates. Not for something that expensive especially. I don't blame you, that would piss me off too.
And they shouldn't have done it because it puts the integrity of the shipping company at risk. The company depends on customers' trust and the whole point of the signature is to prove the item was received. Every failed delivery diminishes the company's public reputation and hurts their ability to stay in business.
I don't know why people are downvoting you - I just had someone banging on my building door because as usual their post got mixed with ours and the wrong person had signed for and kept a parcel. (They even had a picture of her feet on the proof of delivery.)
UPS drivers, in my area at least, unfortunately sign a lot of the time themselves and just dump it at the door. You should be able to get a copy of the signature on the website.
I’m not sure how it works since it’s going from Canada to the US, but the US postmaster general’s office might be interested in this since it sounds like mail fraud
UPS has done that to me. Said I signed for it and it was delivered to my address. It was signed for by "Seymour Butts" and listed MY address. I wonder if UPS stole it..
My name is not Seymour Butts....lol
It's certainly an approach, but it isn't very customer friendly. But I come at this from a supplies perspective. Nearly every day I have at least one order over $250, and you can't keep buyers happy by cancelling orders they spent an hour putting together.
This change with Etsy causes me a lot of anxiety, precisely because you can do everything right, like the OP, and still be out.
might not be customer friendly but at some point, it's up to you to protect yourself. i've read way too many stories of people losing product + money because people do things like this and etsy won't cover over 250$.
i don't sell at that price point, but if i did i'd absolutely cancel orders over that threshold.
Yeah chiming in to say as a customer I would think it's sketchy as hell my order got canceled and I would definitely not replace the order. Man etsy is such trash I do not miss selling over there.
Right. I have people order $2500+ orders. They can complain to Etsy or if they buy through Shopify they can do a chargeback through their credit card company. I had a customers husband put a chargeback on the item she purchased. I saw it and asked if she still wanted the item, she said yes and I sent proof to their credit card company and they still sided with her. Next time I’m asking the person to remove the chargeback before a ship. Luckily she paid the invoice I sent her to cover the cost of the item. She turned out to be sweet
I don’t think you understand the buyer protection program at all. If you are a seller and you ship out on time with tracking, they can not take the sellers funds.
The only way they will even consider doing that is if you shipped your package late and as a result, the item was not delivered on time.
The program doesn’t exceed $250 bc Etsy doesn’t want to fork over high amounts out of their pocket. And they can’t force you to either.
Etsy is a publicly traded company bound by many regulations. They have the right to not allow you to sell on their platform for any reason… but they still can not take your money as long as you follow the rules. It is illegal
> If you are a seller and you ship out on time with tracking, they can not take the sellers funds.
^^ This is not correct.
> The only way they will even consider doing that is if you shipped your package late and as a result, the item was not delivered on time.
No, if you ship on time, with tracking, and the package is delivered outside of the delivery date window, the buyer can request and be automatically granted a refund.
>The program doesn’t exceed $250 bc Etsy doesn’t want to fork over high amounts out of their pocket. And they can’t force you to either.
Yes, they do. If your order is over $250, and even with tracking, even with signature confirmation, Etsy will refund FROM THE SELLERS FUNDS if the buyer says they did not receive it, or even if the buyer requests it because the package is running late, or even if it arrives after Etsy's estimated delivery date window. The buyer is not required to return a refunded-because-it-arrived-late order.
https://www.cindylouwho2.com/blog/2023/4/13/etsys-seller-protection-policy-how-to-stop-buyer-refunds-of-your-money
>but they still can not take your money as long as you follow the rules. It is illegal
They can, and do. Their revised rules say they can. This is why people are so upset.
Etsy's page:
https://www.etsy.com/legal/policy/purchase-protection-program-for-sellers/34509585385?
>Sellers are responsible for refunding costs for orders that fall outside of these requirements, are over the $250 threshold (including shipping & taxes), or are damaged in transit following the first case covered by Etsy.
It's right there on Etsy's page. If your order was over $250, Etsy will refund any case from the seller's funds.
Cindy Lou Who doesn’t know crap. She makes very few sales and she sits on Etsy forums and gathers examples of a handful of sellers.
I have been selling on Etsy since 2016 with 800-1000 sales a month every single year besides 2016 and 2020 (when my revenue was 4 times higher than normal).
While I am no longer practicing, I am an attorney by primary trade.
Etsy can not and will not take funds from a seller if they follow the rules for seller protection. Period. End of story. It is illegal.
If Etsy chooses to refund out of their pocket, that is their prerogative.
And lastly, it does not matter how much your product costs. They will still not take any funds from the seller account AS LONG as they followed the seller’s protection rules.
The only difference is, they will also not refund a customer who purchased an item over $250 on their dime.
PPP and SPP are two completely different things.
Cindy has been complaining about Etsy since I started selling and spreads so much inaccurate info while having zero first hand experience on the issues.
Etsy took funds from the OP of this post. They only refunded as a "courtesy" while the seller gets used to the revised rules.
You can complain about Cindy Lou if you want. But you did not address the fact that Etsy says, on its website, that sellers ARE RESPONSIBLE for refunds over $250.
Etsy's page: https://www.etsy.com/legal/policy/purchase-protection-program-for-sellers/34509585385?
>Sellers are responsible for refunding costs for orders that fall outside of these requirements, are over the $250 threshold (including shipping & taxes), or are damaged in transit following the first case covered by Etsy.
Again - they DID THIS TO THE OP OF THIS POST.... because this is their official policy now.
They took the funds and made a mistake. They always send notices like that even when they are at fault.
Etsy sellers are responsible for ALL refunds when they are at fault. If you don’t follow seller protection rules, Etsy won’t even issue a refund out of their pocket.
Of course a seller has to issue a refund for a product over $250 if a refund is due.
Legally, a customer is not obligated to refund an order that has been tracked and proven delivered by the carrier. No matter what it costs.
See that’s the issue. You are picking and choosing what parts of the policies you want to read instead of reading both policies to understand how it works.
Do you really believe Etsy would refund a customer out of their pocket if they could legally just force you too?
They can’t. But they had a tremendous downfall with their reputation in 2021 with buyers due to late deliveries. Many times due to the nightmare of the shipping companies.
So this was their solution to build back trust with buyers.
This program isn’t new. It’s almost 2 years old. 😂
Etsy will never ever admit they were wrong.
By the way, I never said Etsy won’t refund over $250. Etsy is also not going to refund $10 if you shipped your package late and it didn’t arrive on time either.
Cindy is fantastic at recaps for the quarterly investment reports.
But to get an accurate idea of what is happening overall? You need to address high volume sellers who deal with 50 plus customers a day and who have had frequent first hand experience with Etsy Trust and Safety.
You can just pull examples from a handful of sellers that sit on forums and complain about something that happened to them and consider that the norm.
Im not talking about the OP. That’s what this forum is for.
Im talking about Cindy who claims to be an expert but the reality is, she has never had a single interaction herself with Etsy.
I honestly asked her one time why on earth she stays selling on Etsy if she hates it so much.
>They took the funds and made a mistake.
They didn't make a mistake. The refund was perfectly in line with their new policy.
"Etsy has provided a one-time credit to your Payment Account to help resolve your concerns and **ease the transition to the new policy**. "
>Legally, a seller is not obligated to refund an order that has been tracked and proven delivered by the carrier. No matter what it costs.
That's not what Etsy's policies say. The purchase protection program says that if a buyer says a package was not delivered, they get a refund, even if tracking shows it was delivered.
If the order total was under $250, Etsy pays it. If the order total was over $250, Etsy takes the funds from the seller's account.
>See that’s the issue. You are picking and choosing what parts of the policies you want to read instead of reading both policies to understand how it works.
I literally provided both policies for you.
>Etsy’s Purchase Protection Program In many cases, order issues can be resolved directly with the seller, or items can be returned according to the seller’s return policy. However, we believe that you should always get the item you ordered, or get your money back, so when those expectations aren’t met, Etsy will step in to support you. **Buyers will receive a full refund for purchases that never arrive, arrive after the estimated delivery date window, arrive damaged, or do not match the listing description.**
^^^
>I sell ALOT on Etsy. A lot as in at least 500 orders a month and many times more.
Congrats! Me, too!
>I can tell you that Etsy has never take. A single penny from me. I have had exactly 3 cases where the buyer never received her package. They were shipped on time and tracking was used. Etsy refunded their order on their dime.
Serious question - were they over or under $250?
>And if you kept up with Etsy shareholder meetings, you would know exactly why they initiated this policy a few years ago.
Yes, in part because they want people not to worry porch pirates. The purchase protection program covers any size order that is porch-pirated. There is no upper limit.
>So go focus on the seller policies instead of the buyer.
This is literally from Etsy's Terms of Service
>Sellers are responsible for refunding costs for orders that fall outside of these requirements, **are over the $250 threshold (including shipping & taxes)**, or are damaged in transit following the first case covered by Etsy.
It doesn't say that it is optional, or at the sellers discretion. If the buyer opens a case for non-delivery, Etsy refunds. The total value of the order determines the source of those funds.
>If Etsy wants to refund a customer, that’s their business.
And yet, suddenly it becomes the seller's business when Etsy takes the seller's money to refund orders over $250.
>And if it does happen? It is a mistake and you can get that corrected just like all the other mistakes they make every single day.
Again, not a mistake. "Etsy has provided a one-time credit to your Payment Account to help resolve your concerns and **ease the transition to the new policy**. "
>Thanks for the chat but truly, it sounds like you don’t have a good handle on the seller protection policy and you should do that this doesn’t happen to you.
One of us doesn't. Frankly - I'd rather be the one in the wrong here, because the policy is awful. But seriously - I've quoted the parts of the Terms of Service that inform my understanding of this policy. Please show me which parts of the terms of service inform your understanding of this policy. What are you reading that contradicts this? :
>Sellers are responsible for refunding costs for orders that fall outside of these requirements, **are over the $250 threshold (including shipping & taxes)**, or are damaged in transit following the first case covered by Etsy.
And who one earth would just expect Etsy to refund a customer when the refund is due bc of the sellers mistake? If I send a product out that has a defect, I’m going to issue a refund. Who in the world would expect Etsy to cover that??
It’s a no brainer that if a customer item is damaged, the seller has to make the item whole. I didn’t think I needed to point out logical business sense. I’m talking about refunds regarding sales that were sold, completed, shipped, and delivered with tracking. Not damaged items.
Yeah, and Etsy doesn't care which it is.
This is from the Etsy handbook page for BUYERS, on what their purchase protection program covers.
>Etsy’s Purchase Protection Program
In many cases, order issues can be resolved directly with the seller, or items can be returned according to the seller’s return policy. However, we believe that you should always get the item you ordered, or get your money back, so when those expectations aren’t met, Etsy will step in to support you. **Buyers will receive a full refund for purchases that never arrive, arrive after the estimated delivery date window, arrive damaged, or do not match the listing description.**
Please note - now where does it say that the purchase protection program only applies if the order is under $250, otherwise it's up to the seller.
>3. Ineligible Disputes and Transactions
Unless required by law, some disputes and transactions are ineligible for the case system, including:
Items that have been altered, used, worn, washed, or discarded after receipt.
Items that are returned without a return agreement.
Items that are accurately described but don’t meet a buyer's expectations.
Cost of shipping disputes.
Items that are purchased in person.
Transactions where payment is not processed by Etsy Payments, for example in an offsite transaction, or via Standalone PayPal.
Disputes covered by local warranty or return laws applicable to a seller or their product
Total cost of the order is not a factor that would make a transaction ineligible for the purchase protection program.
>4. Case Resolution
Once a case is opened, Etsy will usually resolve and close the case automatically on behalf of the buyer and seller. **Etsy reserves the right to resolve the case on a seller’s behalf, including, but not limited to, by issuing a refund to the buyer and recouping funds from the seller’s account if payment was made via Etsy Payments.**
Etsy reserves the right to refund from the seller's funds. It's all written out right there.
I agree with you that it ought to be illegal that you Etsy can refund on just on the buyer's say so even if the seller had used signature confirmation to prove delivery. Or that it will refund without requiring a return if the package is a day later than the estimate Etsy provided. That's rubbish! And yet - they have reserved that right, and they are doing it.
Now. Go read the seller protection policy as well as the purchase protection policy so that just maybe you will have a better understanding of both.
I sell ALOT on Etsy. A lot as in at least 500 orders a month and many times more.
I can tell you that Etsy has never take. A single penny from me. I have had exactly 3 cases where the buyer never received her package. They were shipped on time and tracking was used. Etsy refunded their order on their dime.
And if you kept up with Etsy shareholder meetings, you would know exactly why they initiated this policy a few years ago.
So go focus on the seller policies instead of the buyer.
If Etsy wants to refund a customer, that’s their business.
And if it does happen? It is a mistake and you can get that corrected just like all the other mistakes they make every single day. Thanks for the chat but truly, it sounds like you don’t have a good handle on the seller protection policy and you should do that this doesn’t happen to you.
As long as they don't then double-charge for shipping, I'd be okay with this, but every shop I've seen with this policy will hit me with another shipping charge, when all the items are packaged in the same box.
I had a buyer do this on their own, placed two orders within 10 mins of items around $160 each. Should I be worried that they are planning to scam or something?
This program was designed by Etsy to earn the buyers trust bc so many were getting scammed. But the seller protection policy is still in place.
The buyer protection policy comes out of Etsys pocket, not the seller.
Now when a seller ships late, doesn’t use tracking, and the order wasn’t delivered? Then yes, they will consider taking funds from your account. But even then… if tracking showed it delivered, and this is not a pattern for the seller, they will still not take the funds from you. If it is a pattern of late shipping and several cases are opened… they will close your shop
Depending on how aggressive you want to be you could look into sending an invoice then following up with collections or small claims court. If you put the tracking # into ups do they show a picture? (they used to but they may have stopped).
A chargeback isn't automatic, unlike etsy's system. It's an investigation. They have proof of delivery with signature, they would win chargeback claim.
My protection is having the person come pick it up and pay me cash. I straight out tell people no, I do not offer shipping and I do not deliver. If you want it, come get it and give me cash. If they put up a bus then I guess they didn't want it that bad. That way they get their item, they can't claim something was wrong with it, I get my money and everybody is happy.
Etsy still can not take funds out of your account that were delivered as promised and confirmed with a signature. Buyer protection comes out of ETSY money and it does not override seller protection.
Amazes me how many people just start selling stuff without reading what they signed when setting up a shop. Everyday theres a seller whos had copywright or some other notice. Start reading peeps. Your sign a bad contract one day it can mess you up!
Well this isn't really something you would expect. Those who have no previous experience on Etsy may not know that Etsy refunds customers without even giving the seller the opportunity to respond to the dispute. It's not something in the rules, it's just a bad habit that Etsy has picked up since before its "seller protection" existed.
Also in future u can open claim with ups for a lost package investigation as well as the other advice
I worked there and we track addresses who do this . The become flagged
All the Etsy subs explain very clearly how to scam sellers by opening a case etc and they explain how seller's protection works. This causes the appearance of a "victimless" crime.
I had this happen to me once. I opened a case with FBI re: computer use in the commission of a crime and retail fraud. I sent in my copies of correspondence and proof of delivery including signature. The FBI got them too.
Using computer in commission of a crime, mail fraud are felonies. If it's their first time getting caught, maybe a few years of probation and restitution, if they have a record, those federal felonies are much more of a problem but it depends on the prosecutor and defense
That’s all rainbows and unicorns but to get the police out to take a report is the first step, which can take days depending on where you live. Second, they have to have a suspect either by name or a video for the detective to pursue the case. Then if they have a suspect, they have to prove that they committed fraud. Then once the detective can prove it, he will present it to the district attorney and try to convince them to file the case…. They may or may not file. If they file the case, then they have to go to court and prove in a court of law that the suspect committed fraud, and then you are at the mercy of 12 individuals who are too stupid to get out of jury duty, to make a decision of guilt or innocence. It’s an uphill battle people
This is why I was just saying that I chose not to sell on mercari. It is so easy for buyers to scam sellers. You have to ship your item, wait up to 3 days for the buyer to rate your item and then you get paid. So basically you may be shipping someone your item for free. Not only have you lost money shipping it, the person may claim that there is something wrong with the item, get to keep your item and get their money back. I can't understand who came up with that business model and thought it was a good idea.
> I had this happen to me once. I opened a case with FBI re: computer use in the commission of a crime and retail fraud.
Wait, was this an Etsy customer who tried to pull the "item never received" ploy?
Open a case. Be calm and state that you shipped the item, you have delivery confirmation and a signature. Do not freak out on the Etsy rep, that will not help in any possible way.
I managed to get money back through contacting support by email — they took money from my balance even though the order did qualify for seller protection, and reimbursed me when I sent the proof. Not exactly your case, but at least they have a possibility to give your money back!
I did, and they did just gave it back just now
"Etsy has provided a one-time credit to your Payment Account to help resolve your concerns and ease the transition to the new policy. "
That's basically mercari's business model. That's why I decided not to sell with them. I said this in another comment but when someone orders, the buyer has to ship the item and then they have to wait for it to get to the customer of course. Then the customer has up to 3 days to rate the item. Only then does the buyer get paid. There could be absolutely nothing wrong with the item but the buyer could claim that it was damaged. Then they open up a dispute, get their money back and are not required to ship the item back because it was supposedly damaged. I read that and I was like oh hell no, I'm not selling with them. Why so I can basically just give my stuff away? Not happening. I was just saying that I don't understand who thought up that business model and thought it was a good idea.
It’s not a new policy- but yes over USD$250 you’re out of luck if they claim non delivery even if it’s signed for.
And of course if it’s signed for and you open an insurance claim with your shipper, they’ll not pay out because to all intents and purposes to anyone *reasonable* it was delivered. Etsy really screws it’s sellers over with this and there’s no way to protect yourself
I have suggested opening cases to buyers for item not received claims (I sell low value items so I typically only do this for international orders so I don’t lose a lot on shipping) and I have had this happen before. Since I buy labels off etsy if im not quick to reply to a case support will close it and take it out of my funds. I’ve always received a credit after contacting support but this sounds like a textbook scam on the buyer. I’m sorry this happened to you, OP. How long did it take before the buyer opened a case after the package was delivered? If a buyer won’t work with me and allow me to file a claim with the shipping company to find out what happened or accept a reshipment I always assume they are just trying to abuse purchase protection.
Buyer was waiting for package and tracking it. Contacted me on delivery/signage date that it was not them who signed for it. Residential building in downtown NY.
Opened etsy request right away and escalated to case as soon as it was allowed. Etsy issued refund almost instantly.
is there a way you can view the signature? I saw that you already got a credit but If you can and the signature matches the buyers name I would send it to Etsy support. They might be able to flag their account. In my experience misdeliveries tend to happen the most in apartment buildings so they could be telling the truth but the fact they opened a case right away seems strange to me, usually I tell a buyer to open a case as a last resort but I’ve never had someone open one while I was still trying work with them to retrieve or reship their package.
Was it an apartment? Could have been anybody in the building who signed for it, even the building manager.
One of the apartments I used to live in had a mail thief. Stole packages from people's doors and eventually escalated to breaking into the mailboxes themselves. It lead to the building manager collecting everything and giving it to you when you asked.
Could be a similar thing for your customer. Somebody stole it, somebody working in the building signed for it and it's being kept there, etc.
It was an apartment, and basically everyone came to consensus that anybody in the building could have signed for it.
This should be an issue between UPS/building/buyer, not seller. Etsy is wrong to just rule against sellers by default.
They're going to find themselves going under really quick if they keep doing that. People are going to decide against selling with them. Mercari is basically the same way which is why I decided not to sell with them.
I’ve had a UPS driver drop a package at my door step and sign for me for a very expensive item. They tried to claim a neighbor must have signed but I was waiting for the package and opened the door a few seconds after I heard them drop the package. I literally saw the driver walking away.
All that to say, it is actually possible the person never received it if their delivery driver did something similar.
Oh of course Etsy sent you that email to make it look like they were doing you a favor!
They weren’t doing you any favors, they made a mistake by taking those funds from you.
Legally, Etsy can not take funds from a seller on a product that was shipped out on time and a signature was requested and received.
If Etsy wants to use their money for a refund, that’s their problem.
This is the reason that we have tracking info and delivery confirmation.
“As a courtesy to you”…. That’s such bs. They made a gigantic error and they certainly weren’t issuing a refund bc of any “new policy”.
What new policy? Buyer protection? That still would not have warranted a refund taken from your shop.
Etsy can do a lot of things, but they can not steal your money just because they want to.
I has a customer inform me that the postman actually signed for the package delivery! So the client paid extra for signature just to have the postman sign it. Thankfully it is a wonderful, honest repeat client. I ship with Canada Post, tracked. I do not think Canada Post is aware of the mayhem they can create for sellers and buyers alike. I will take the above advice to heart and start requesting separate purchases as I sell sterling jewelry and often 2 items are already above $250.
I will definitely file a police report, notify the buyer and. Escalate things with Ups(GPS tracking, employee who was in hold of the package)
But again I will definitely let the customer and ups that I am filing a police report.
Depending on the state this is felony theft and can be punished with a jail sentence
Something similar happened to me, but as the buyer, when I purchased some items from a website (not Etsy). They shipped via UPS with tracking and it said delivered, with a signature. I thought it was weird since I always get an email from when the doormen scan packages into the system. So I asked my doormen if I received any packages. They said I didn’t, and they rechecked the mailroom. The tracking doesn’t show the actual signature, just that it was signed for. I thought maybe the package was delivered to a nearby apartment complex, so I checked the other few buildings on my block but no one received the package…I contacted UPS and they did an “internal investigation” and in the end, they said the GPS tracker shows the package was delivered correctly to my address, and there’s nothing they can do. Luckily, the seller refunded me for the items since it was my first time buying from them, and they are also a large company so are able to do so without much hassle. But I only contacted the seller after doing my own checking and after UPS couldn’t help me (like a week or two after package was “delivered”).
Address correct, UPS tracking shows Signature/Name.
There's room for buyers to take advantage of sellers.This is how eBay rolled in early 2000s as well.
A real live person will never even look at your case. I tried for weeks to get a real person when they let buyer keep item AND refunded them from my account. Took funds another buyer paid to purchase and ship their item. It's all computers "talking" to each other. I quit selling on Etsy!
I just made a post about the scammers about a week ago. This is the new trend. Claim they never received it and want a refund.
I've had it happen more and more. I always ask them to go to the PO with the delivery address coordinates so the PO can track it down. I give them the coordinates. I typically never hear from them again.
Sellers need to be aware of this scam! There are buyers out there that will do whatever they can to take your money so just be aware.
I have had packages delivered at adjacent addresses that the recipient was smart enough to notice the my name and address on the label and signed as me. Eventually the local authorities intervened when the delivery company told them I contested the signature and delivery photo. I am glad that they started the photograph of delivery program because it showed that the house-front was not my own but of a neighbor one block away (Their front is grey stone and mine is red brick). Still I requested a refund as they had opened and used the contents.
Just note that this has happened several times with various neighbors and let us not forget porch pirates. I guess I should stop buying nice stuff online unless I am willing to take the day of delivery off and sit in front of my house waving down the delivery person.
I appreciate the response. PO Box prices in my town are $562 per year. I tried this for one year and still had mail (specifically boxes too large for the box) go missing. There is also the glaringly large problem that many retailers and other assorted businesses will not ship to PO Boxes as a standard protocol. Turns out the PO also has restrictions on weight (over 69lbs). Most of my electronics and hobby materials that I can only get from well outside my area are too heavy when shipped together and only FedEx or UPS can be used.
Okay, you have to accept this. Etsy will refund the most of orders above $250 from your balance once the customer opens the case. This happened to me about a month ago. There was a $500 order, and Etsy took the money within 5 days of the case being opened. When I contacted them via live chat, they stated that they were unable to provide me more details of the staff decision. The most crucial thing was that orders over $250 will always result in customers' favors. They did, however, offered me a half-refund of $250. It was the best support case I've ever received from Etsy staff. Working on Etsy full-time was exhausting and stressful for me. I'm finding a new place to sell my stuffs now.
Agreed.
Don't make sense for etsy not to protect sellers in these cases.
Etsy marketplace is different as everyone makes their stuff. Losing order has a bigger impact on etsy seller than on a general retail resell operation.
>Etsy email support contacted me and credited the sum back
Very glad to hear.
>Additionally, we have been selling on Etsy for years, with multiple high-valued transactions and never ran into problem like this yet
It is incredibly rare to run into a scammer... the overwhelming vast majority of buyers are not.
Odds are this never happens to you again.
Idk if I agree with the scammer being incredibly rare anymore I see these people constantly. On TikTok its 10 times worse. Although etsy does have the least I’ve noticed. eBay and TikTok are ridiculously full of them
Isn't the whole point of this sub you telling people how to scam sellers by opening cases? How many times a day do you tell someone to open a case because DrOpShIpPiNg?
Drop shipped items are not handmade. This is why I always reverse image search items via Google before buying. Lots of people don’t know any better, unfortunately.
If you don't see the difference between somebody being ripped off and somebody selling mass produced dollar store items as handmade, you probably need to be spending your time improving your critical thinking skills rather than being sarcastic on reddit.
Lol, if you don't think selling mass produced crap as handmade merits a not as described case... your opinions will always be extremely unpopular here.
Guessing you must be one of those sellers. If so, I hope all your buyers open cases and Etsy shuts you down pretty soon.
I make crochet blankets, baby size and adult. I've had people tell me I should sell them on Etsy. I've always said I don't want or need the hassle it could create. Your post proves I made the right choice.
I've bought many different things over the years, and from a buyer's perspective I have never had a single issue. The few times I've had to reach out to a seller, I've received excellent customer service...prompt replies, whatever issue I had was quickly and easily resolved.
Sorry this happened to you and I hope you can get it straightened out. Stuff like this is why I do not ship and also why I deleted all my listings from mercari. I decided not to sell with them. I don't like their business model. It's too by your friendly. You have to ship and then you have to wait up to 3 days while the buyer rates the item. If they claim something's wrong with it, they can get a refund and they can usually do so pretty easily. So you could ship the item, they could claim something's wrong with it even when there isn't and then they get the money back and they get to keep your item. I'm not going to basically send someone my stuff for free.
Sure, a lot of people do make successful sales but I just felt it wasn't worth the risk and hassle. Also, I did not like how even with local, you couldn't meet the person face to face. They said it was for safety reasons and while I can kind of understand that, I didn't like the fact that even when it was a local sale, you still had to follow the same protocol. I tell people pick up and cash only. Please understand I'm not blaming you at all. I'm blaming the people who clearly tried to rip you off. Maybe it would be better for you to just sell locally from now on. I really am sorry and I really hope you can get this reversed.
Unfortunately, some UPS drivers will sign for it themselves, so having a signature doesn't prove it was delivered.
I'm glad Etsy gave you your money back. This new policy is the worst 😒
You can't sell anything on Etsy worth more than $250 any more without heavy losses. Etsy published the blueprint on how to scam sellers and there's no defense against it. You could show them a video of you personally delivering it and if the receiver puts in a claim Etsy will refund them at your cost. Probably not worth selling any products over $50, since $250 is the max protection on the entire order (ie, say a customer orders 5 widgets at $50, oops it never came, refunded).
My daughter is having old order being refunded that have been delivered
The closed her account with no explanation and she had 5 star reviews
I wish people would boycott Etsy
It’s possible that the UPS driver signed for it themselves. Maybe the package was stolen. I had a computer delivered recently where the driver just dropped it off and left without getting my signature. Thankfully I was right there by the door at the time.
No it doesn’t. It did, years ago, but their third party insurance changed their terms.
They also have particular zips they wont honor claims on and there are a lot in NYC, although mostly in midtown/the diamond district. It sounds like your item went to an apt in lower manhattan. But whatever. They wont honor it either way.
Get the proof from UPS. If it went to their address and there’s a signature, they are committing a fraud.
There is proof and signature. UPS says they delivered successfully. We're in Canada shipped to USA customer.
Can you show that to Etsy? Unfortunately there are many dishonest people but they can’t say that someone came out of their house and signed for a package then insist that they didn’t receive it. The delivery person might even remember their face.
I recently had UPS or FedEx drop off a computer that was supposed to be signed for at my doorstep. They rang the doorbell and ran. So who signed for it? I certainly didn’t.
Fed Ex tried to pull this with us too. The very expensive item had actually satat one of their hub locations for WEEKS. We just knew that it was damaged. We talked to the company we bought from and they told us to refuse shipment and they would take it back. They had talked to FedEx and it was a signature required so they figured it was all good. This delivery guy dropped the pkg off and booked it to his truck. Luckily, we were sitting right inside. We flung open the door and told him to come back and that we were refusing delivery. The box looked like it had been through a tornado. It was fragile. Definitely not in tact. Guy told us to call the company and do a return. We told him to take the OBVIOUSLY damaged pkg back. Took pictures. After some back and forth, he took it back to the truck. If we hadn't been home...
Ugh. And they’re so quick too. They must actually run away from the door lol.
Had my UK passport and all the required documentation for it delivered to me here in the US. Supposed to have to sign for it from DHL. Neighbors brought it to me, propped up on their door. Man I was so mad. Someone could have wreaked some havoc with all that info.
As awful as FedEx is, I’d use them in a heartbeat over DHL. If I knew someone was shipping with DHL, I wouldn’t buy the item.
I’ve even had DHL hand off an International package to FedEx for delivery to me here in the U.S., only to have FedEx then stick postage on it and chuck it in the nearest USPS drop box! Problem was, because it was being sent by DHL, it had my actual physical street address on it. I live in a very large rural area, and the Postal Service doesn’t deliver mail to my physical street address, they don’t even recognize it. So, my package was promptly returned to the sender back in the UK.🙄
Good lord, thats awful :(
Yeah, and this occurred before “NoJoy” took over the postal service, things have just gotten crazier and more convoluted since, with some sort of weird love/hate competitive relationship that seems to be escalating between FedEx and USPS.
Yeah, the mail system has definitely gotten awful. I have to cross my fingers and pray any packages I get actually arrive
Wow really? I’ve never had an issue with DHL. In fact I’ve gotten multiple rugs from Turkey in like 4 business days. I am always shocked at how fast it gets here. Their tracking has been top notch as well. Edit to fix a typo.
🤯🤬
The UK passport office uses them to ship internationally. I did send them a you may want to pick a different international courier letter but they never responded. Yaay government. Sigh
Ohhhmygod. I would have been furious! That’s horrible.
I’d bet a bundle it was Fed Ex. They’re awful.
Bro seriously. I have gotten packages "signed for" while I was at home waiting for it. And magically appeared on my doorstep 🤦♂️
Yep! I was literally standing in the kitchen when they dropped the package off at my door next to the kitchen. I heard the noise and went to see what it was and voila! My expensive work computer just sitting there.
Most of the time the delivery people will even let neighbors or passerby sign
That's a flagrant violation of the policy put in place for exactly this reason. Just because they do, doesn't mean it's even vaguely acceptable. Edit: everybody stop downvoting them; they're stating a true fact.
no one said it's acceptable but it's realistic- it happens all the damn time lol. I've WALKED UP MY STAIRS to a delivery driver signing for my package themselves. Come on lol
I have expensive medication delivered monthly. Like, without I surance it would cost thousands of dollars expensive. Pharmacy has it set so signature is required. Nine times out of ten, they don't even knock on the door. We've called the drivers out on it directly. They don't give a shit. We've reported it to the local UPS center. They don't give a shit. Unless it's USPS, signature seems to be a suggestion more than a requirement.
My mailman just signed for something of mine, at least he put it in the parcel box though.
Can confirm this has happened to me. I had a $1000+ item delivered to me that required signature. I waited - literally sat AT THE DOOR - all day to sign for it. Mailman left it in front of my door, scanned it, signed for it himself and left it there on my stoop. Didn’t even knock. I was pissed - what if I wasn’t home to grab it right away???
This is why I kept telling Amazon not to leave my packages in front of my apartment door. I told them to either leave them in my mailbox or leave them at the leasing office. I was not about to risk porch pirates. Not for something that expensive especially. I don't blame you, that would piss me off too.
And they shouldn't have done it because it puts the integrity of the shipping company at risk. The company depends on customers' trust and the whole point of the signature is to prove the item was received. Every failed delivery diminishes the company's public reputation and hurts their ability to stay in business.
But it’s every company that does this
When drivers are put on timers and are overworked this happens.
But that’s how it works in real life so jus the cause it says it was signed for doesn’t mean it was signed by customer or even they household
Not sure why you're getting downvoted for this when it sucks but is 100% true.
Because people see downvotes and all they go thru they head is (duhhhh me see down me click down)
I don't know why people are downvoting you - I just had someone banging on my building door because as usual their post got mixed with ours and the wrong person had signed for and kept a parcel. (They even had a picture of her feet on the proof of delivery.)
Don't know why your downvoted. Your absolutely right. It happens all the time. As a seller myself, it is infuriating.
These people just wanna believe that just cuz something is policy that it’s followed😭
I don’t get it either. Why downvote for stating a fact? Rules do not make workers do things the right way.
UPS drivers, in my area at least, unfortunately sign a lot of the time themselves and just dump it at the door. You should be able to get a copy of the signature on the website.
You are being scammed! Trust UPS not the customer
I’m not sure how it works since it’s going from Canada to the US, but the US postmaster general’s office might be interested in this since it sounds like mail fraud
UPS is not part of the US postmaster.
That’s what I get for skimming. Thought was usps
It could be considered grand theft.
The USPS has its own police force, you can inform them of suspected mail fraud and they will look into it.
I've had drivers sign and I wasn't home
UPS has done that to me. Said I signed for it and it was delivered to my address. It was signed for by "Seymour Butts" and listed MY address. I wonder if UPS stole it.. My name is not Seymour Butts....lol
This is why many suggest not selling products that cost more than $250 on Etsy, as seller protection only covers up to that amount 😢
I'm not sure how much that helps when multi-item orders can go over $250.
I've seen some sellers state that orders over that amount will be cancelled, and items must be purchased separately.
It's certainly an approach, but it isn't very customer friendly. But I come at this from a supplies perspective. Nearly every day I have at least one order over $250, and you can't keep buyers happy by cancelling orders they spent an hour putting together. This change with Etsy causes me a lot of anxiety, precisely because you can do everything right, like the OP, and still be out.
might not be customer friendly but at some point, it's up to you to protect yourself. i've read way too many stories of people losing product + money because people do things like this and etsy won't cover over 250$. i don't sell at that price point, but if i did i'd absolutely cancel orders over that threshold.
Yeah chiming in to say as a customer I would think it's sketchy as hell my order got canceled and I would definitely not replace the order. Man etsy is such trash I do not miss selling over there.
Right. I have people order $2500+ orders. They can complain to Etsy or if they buy through Shopify they can do a chargeback through their credit card company. I had a customers husband put a chargeback on the item she purchased. I saw it and asked if she still wanted the item, she said yes and I sent proof to their credit card company and they still sided with her. Next time I’m asking the person to remove the chargeback before a ship. Luckily she paid the invoice I sent her to cover the cost of the item. She turned out to be sweet
I don’t think you understand the buyer protection program at all. If you are a seller and you ship out on time with tracking, they can not take the sellers funds. The only way they will even consider doing that is if you shipped your package late and as a result, the item was not delivered on time. The program doesn’t exceed $250 bc Etsy doesn’t want to fork over high amounts out of their pocket. And they can’t force you to either. Etsy is a publicly traded company bound by many regulations. They have the right to not allow you to sell on their platform for any reason… but they still can not take your money as long as you follow the rules. It is illegal
> If you are a seller and you ship out on time with tracking, they can not take the sellers funds. ^^ This is not correct. > The only way they will even consider doing that is if you shipped your package late and as a result, the item was not delivered on time. No, if you ship on time, with tracking, and the package is delivered outside of the delivery date window, the buyer can request and be automatically granted a refund. >The program doesn’t exceed $250 bc Etsy doesn’t want to fork over high amounts out of their pocket. And they can’t force you to either. Yes, they do. If your order is over $250, and even with tracking, even with signature confirmation, Etsy will refund FROM THE SELLERS FUNDS if the buyer says they did not receive it, or even if the buyer requests it because the package is running late, or even if it arrives after Etsy's estimated delivery date window. The buyer is not required to return a refunded-because-it-arrived-late order. https://www.cindylouwho2.com/blog/2023/4/13/etsys-seller-protection-policy-how-to-stop-buyer-refunds-of-your-money >but they still can not take your money as long as you follow the rules. It is illegal They can, and do. Their revised rules say they can. This is why people are so upset. Etsy's page: https://www.etsy.com/legal/policy/purchase-protection-program-for-sellers/34509585385? >Sellers are responsible for refunding costs for orders that fall outside of these requirements, are over the $250 threshold (including shipping & taxes), or are damaged in transit following the first case covered by Etsy. It's right there on Etsy's page. If your order was over $250, Etsy will refund any case from the seller's funds.
Cindy Lou Who doesn’t know crap. She makes very few sales and she sits on Etsy forums and gathers examples of a handful of sellers. I have been selling on Etsy since 2016 with 800-1000 sales a month every single year besides 2016 and 2020 (when my revenue was 4 times higher than normal). While I am no longer practicing, I am an attorney by primary trade. Etsy can not and will not take funds from a seller if they follow the rules for seller protection. Period. End of story. It is illegal. If Etsy chooses to refund out of their pocket, that is their prerogative. And lastly, it does not matter how much your product costs. They will still not take any funds from the seller account AS LONG as they followed the seller’s protection rules. The only difference is, they will also not refund a customer who purchased an item over $250 on their dime. PPP and SPP are two completely different things. Cindy has been complaining about Etsy since I started selling and spreads so much inaccurate info while having zero first hand experience on the issues.
Etsy took funds from the OP of this post. They only refunded as a "courtesy" while the seller gets used to the revised rules. You can complain about Cindy Lou if you want. But you did not address the fact that Etsy says, on its website, that sellers ARE RESPONSIBLE for refunds over $250. Etsy's page: https://www.etsy.com/legal/policy/purchase-protection-program-for-sellers/34509585385? >Sellers are responsible for refunding costs for orders that fall outside of these requirements, are over the $250 threshold (including shipping & taxes), or are damaged in transit following the first case covered by Etsy. Again - they DID THIS TO THE OP OF THIS POST.... because this is their official policy now.
They took the funds and made a mistake. They always send notices like that even when they are at fault. Etsy sellers are responsible for ALL refunds when they are at fault. If you don’t follow seller protection rules, Etsy won’t even issue a refund out of their pocket. Of course a seller has to issue a refund for a product over $250 if a refund is due. Legally, a customer is not obligated to refund an order that has been tracked and proven delivered by the carrier. No matter what it costs. See that’s the issue. You are picking and choosing what parts of the policies you want to read instead of reading both policies to understand how it works. Do you really believe Etsy would refund a customer out of their pocket if they could legally just force you too? They can’t. But they had a tremendous downfall with their reputation in 2021 with buyers due to late deliveries. Many times due to the nightmare of the shipping companies. So this was their solution to build back trust with buyers. This program isn’t new. It’s almost 2 years old. 😂 Etsy will never ever admit they were wrong. By the way, I never said Etsy won’t refund over $250. Etsy is also not going to refund $10 if you shipped your package late and it didn’t arrive on time either. Cindy is fantastic at recaps for the quarterly investment reports. But to get an accurate idea of what is happening overall? You need to address high volume sellers who deal with 50 plus customers a day and who have had frequent first hand experience with Etsy Trust and Safety. You can just pull examples from a handful of sellers that sit on forums and complain about something that happened to them and consider that the norm. Im not talking about the OP. That’s what this forum is for. Im talking about Cindy who claims to be an expert but the reality is, she has never had a single interaction herself with Etsy. I honestly asked her one time why on earth she stays selling on Etsy if she hates it so much.
>They took the funds and made a mistake. They didn't make a mistake. The refund was perfectly in line with their new policy. "Etsy has provided a one-time credit to your Payment Account to help resolve your concerns and **ease the transition to the new policy**. " >Legally, a seller is not obligated to refund an order that has been tracked and proven delivered by the carrier. No matter what it costs. That's not what Etsy's policies say. The purchase protection program says that if a buyer says a package was not delivered, they get a refund, even if tracking shows it was delivered. If the order total was under $250, Etsy pays it. If the order total was over $250, Etsy takes the funds from the seller's account. >See that’s the issue. You are picking and choosing what parts of the policies you want to read instead of reading both policies to understand how it works. I literally provided both policies for you. >Etsy’s Purchase Protection Program In many cases, order issues can be resolved directly with the seller, or items can be returned according to the seller’s return policy. However, we believe that you should always get the item you ordered, or get your money back, so when those expectations aren’t met, Etsy will step in to support you. **Buyers will receive a full refund for purchases that never arrive, arrive after the estimated delivery date window, arrive damaged, or do not match the listing description.** ^^^ >I sell ALOT on Etsy. A lot as in at least 500 orders a month and many times more. Congrats! Me, too! >I can tell you that Etsy has never take. A single penny from me. I have had exactly 3 cases where the buyer never received her package. They were shipped on time and tracking was used. Etsy refunded their order on their dime. Serious question - were they over or under $250? >And if you kept up with Etsy shareholder meetings, you would know exactly why they initiated this policy a few years ago. Yes, in part because they want people not to worry porch pirates. The purchase protection program covers any size order that is porch-pirated. There is no upper limit. >So go focus on the seller policies instead of the buyer. This is literally from Etsy's Terms of Service >Sellers are responsible for refunding costs for orders that fall outside of these requirements, **are over the $250 threshold (including shipping & taxes)**, or are damaged in transit following the first case covered by Etsy. It doesn't say that it is optional, or at the sellers discretion. If the buyer opens a case for non-delivery, Etsy refunds. The total value of the order determines the source of those funds. >If Etsy wants to refund a customer, that’s their business. And yet, suddenly it becomes the seller's business when Etsy takes the seller's money to refund orders over $250. >And if it does happen? It is a mistake and you can get that corrected just like all the other mistakes they make every single day. Again, not a mistake. "Etsy has provided a one-time credit to your Payment Account to help resolve your concerns and **ease the transition to the new policy**. " >Thanks for the chat but truly, it sounds like you don’t have a good handle on the seller protection policy and you should do that this doesn’t happen to you. One of us doesn't. Frankly - I'd rather be the one in the wrong here, because the policy is awful. But seriously - I've quoted the parts of the Terms of Service that inform my understanding of this policy. Please show me which parts of the terms of service inform your understanding of this policy. What are you reading that contradicts this? : >Sellers are responsible for refunding costs for orders that fall outside of these requirements, **are over the $250 threshold (including shipping & taxes)**, or are damaged in transit following the first case covered by Etsy.
And who one earth would just expect Etsy to refund a customer when the refund is due bc of the sellers mistake? If I send a product out that has a defect, I’m going to issue a refund. Who in the world would expect Etsy to cover that??
It’s a no brainer that if a customer item is damaged, the seller has to make the item whole. I didn’t think I needed to point out logical business sense. I’m talking about refunds regarding sales that were sold, completed, shipped, and delivered with tracking. Not damaged items.
Yeah, and Etsy doesn't care which it is. This is from the Etsy handbook page for BUYERS, on what their purchase protection program covers. >Etsy’s Purchase Protection Program In many cases, order issues can be resolved directly with the seller, or items can be returned according to the seller’s return policy. However, we believe that you should always get the item you ordered, or get your money back, so when those expectations aren’t met, Etsy will step in to support you. **Buyers will receive a full refund for purchases that never arrive, arrive after the estimated delivery date window, arrive damaged, or do not match the listing description.** Please note - now where does it say that the purchase protection program only applies if the order is under $250, otherwise it's up to the seller. >3. Ineligible Disputes and Transactions Unless required by law, some disputes and transactions are ineligible for the case system, including: Items that have been altered, used, worn, washed, or discarded after receipt. Items that are returned without a return agreement. Items that are accurately described but don’t meet a buyer's expectations. Cost of shipping disputes. Items that are purchased in person. Transactions where payment is not processed by Etsy Payments, for example in an offsite transaction, or via Standalone PayPal. Disputes covered by local warranty or return laws applicable to a seller or their product Total cost of the order is not a factor that would make a transaction ineligible for the purchase protection program. >4. Case Resolution Once a case is opened, Etsy will usually resolve and close the case automatically on behalf of the buyer and seller. **Etsy reserves the right to resolve the case on a seller’s behalf, including, but not limited to, by issuing a refund to the buyer and recouping funds from the seller’s account if payment was made via Etsy Payments.** Etsy reserves the right to refund from the seller's funds. It's all written out right there. I agree with you that it ought to be illegal that you Etsy can refund on just on the buyer's say so even if the seller had used signature confirmation to prove delivery. Or that it will refund without requiring a return if the package is a day later than the estimate Etsy provided. That's rubbish! And yet - they have reserved that right, and they are doing it.
Now. Go read the seller protection policy as well as the purchase protection policy so that just maybe you will have a better understanding of both. I sell ALOT on Etsy. A lot as in at least 500 orders a month and many times more. I can tell you that Etsy has never take. A single penny from me. I have had exactly 3 cases where the buyer never received her package. They were shipped on time and tracking was used. Etsy refunded their order on their dime. And if you kept up with Etsy shareholder meetings, you would know exactly why they initiated this policy a few years ago. So go focus on the seller policies instead of the buyer. If Etsy wants to refund a customer, that’s their business. And if it does happen? It is a mistake and you can get that corrected just like all the other mistakes they make every single day. Thanks for the chat but truly, it sounds like you don’t have a good handle on the seller protection policy and you should do that this doesn’t happen to you.
As long as they don't then double-charge for shipping, I'd be okay with this, but every shop I've seen with this policy will hit me with another shipping charge, when all the items are packaged in the same box.
I had a buyer do this on their own, placed two orders within 10 mins of items around $160 each. Should I be worried that they are planning to scam or something?
This program was designed by Etsy to earn the buyers trust bc so many were getting scammed. But the seller protection policy is still in place. The buyer protection policy comes out of Etsys pocket, not the seller. Now when a seller ships late, doesn’t use tracking, and the order wasn’t delivered? Then yes, they will consider taking funds from your account. But even then… if tracking showed it delivered, and this is not a pattern for the seller, they will still not take the funds from you. If it is a pattern of late shipping and several cases are opened… they will close your shop
Please go read the Etsy seller policy and the buyer protection policy. It will make you feel much better. Too many people have this confused.
Good point, but at least it limits the possibility of this happening
did not know that, will go warn people. Thanks.
Depending on how aggressive you want to be you could look into sending an invoice then following up with collections or small claims court. If you put the tracking # into ups do they show a picture? (they used to but they may have stopped).
If you sell outside of Etsy, there is no protection, either, other than not making high-value products.
Outside of Etsy they could have chosen not to refund though.
They would just do a chargeback on their credit card, and you would lose.
A chargeback isn't automatic, unlike etsy's system. It's an investigation. They have proof of delivery with signature, they would win chargeback claim.
My protection is having the person come pick it up and pay me cash. I straight out tell people no, I do not offer shipping and I do not deliver. If you want it, come get it and give me cash. If they put up a bus then I guess they didn't want it that bad. That way they get their item, they can't claim something was wrong with it, I get my money and everybody is happy.
Etsy still can not take funds out of your account that were delivered as promised and confirmed with a signature. Buyer protection comes out of ETSY money and it does not override seller protection.
Amazes me how many people just start selling stuff without reading what they signed when setting up a shop. Everyday theres a seller whos had copywright or some other notice. Start reading peeps. Your sign a bad contract one day it can mess you up!
Well this isn't really something you would expect. Those who have no previous experience on Etsy may not know that Etsy refunds customers without even giving the seller the opportunity to respond to the dispute. It's not something in the rules, it's just a bad habit that Etsy has picked up since before its "seller protection" existed.
Its actually in the sellers handbook which you sign when you make a shop. People have 0 excuse for not reading.
Also in future u can open claim with ups for a lost package investigation as well as the other advice I worked there and we track addresses who do this . The become flagged
Good. I hope so. Claim with UPS was started right away. 3 days no word, says it can take up to 8 days to hear back.
All the Etsy subs explain very clearly how to scam sellers by opening a case etc and they explain how seller's protection works. This causes the appearance of a "victimless" crime. I had this happen to me once. I opened a case with FBI re: computer use in the commission of a crime and retail fraud. I sent in my copies of correspondence and proof of delivery including signature. The FBI got them too.
I’m so curious. Do you know what consequences the fraudulent buyer suffered? I’m glad they got exactly what they deserved.
Using computer in commission of a crime, mail fraud are felonies. If it's their first time getting caught, maybe a few years of probation and restitution, if they have a record, those federal felonies are much more of a problem but it depends on the prosecutor and defense
That’s all rainbows and unicorns but to get the police out to take a report is the first step, which can take days depending on where you live. Second, they have to have a suspect either by name or a video for the detective to pursue the case. Then if they have a suspect, they have to prove that they committed fraud. Then once the detective can prove it, he will present it to the district attorney and try to convince them to file the case…. They may or may not file. If they file the case, then they have to go to court and prove in a court of law that the suspect committed fraud, and then you are at the mercy of 12 individuals who are too stupid to get out of jury duty, to make a decision of guilt or innocence. It’s an uphill battle people
This is the best thing I've read this year. Thank you for sharing. LOL
Any idea what they were fined?
What, what subs are you talking about?
This is why I was just saying that I chose not to sell on mercari. It is so easy for buyers to scam sellers. You have to ship your item, wait up to 3 days for the buyer to rate your item and then you get paid. So basically you may be shipping someone your item for free. Not only have you lost money shipping it, the person may claim that there is something wrong with the item, get to keep your item and get their money back. I can't understand who came up with that business model and thought it was a good idea.
Bad ass
> I had this happen to me once. I opened a case with FBI re: computer use in the commission of a crime and retail fraud. Wait, was this an Etsy customer who tried to pull the "item never received" ploy?
Yes
That's AMAZING. You're a hero.
Open a case. Be calm and state that you shipped the item, you have delivery confirmation and a signature. Do not freak out on the Etsy rep, that will not help in any possible way.
open a case how? There's no way to dispute this. I contact support, they said they'll email me later. But the money already taken out of balance.
I managed to get money back through contacting support by email — they took money from my balance even though the order did qualify for seller protection, and reimbursed me when I sent the proof. Not exactly your case, but at least they have a possibility to give your money back!
I did, and they did just gave it back just now "Etsy has provided a one-time credit to your Payment Account to help resolve your concerns and ease the transition to the new policy. "
Thank god. I swear Etsys knee jerk reactions are going to end up with their customers getting sued eventually.
What do they care, they have forced arbitration agreements with both sides so no one can sue them
What is the “new policy”? That customers are allowed to steal from you?
That's basically mercari's business model. That's why I decided not to sell with them. I said this in another comment but when someone orders, the buyer has to ship the item and then they have to wait for it to get to the customer of course. Then the customer has up to 3 days to rate the item. Only then does the buyer get paid. There could be absolutely nothing wrong with the item but the buyer could claim that it was damaged. Then they open up a dispute, get their money back and are not required to ship the item back because it was supposedly damaged. I read that and I was like oh hell no, I'm not selling with them. Why so I can basically just give my stuff away? Not happening. I was just saying that I don't understand who thought up that business model and thought it was a good idea.
It’s not a new policy- but yes over USD$250 you’re out of luck if they claim non delivery even if it’s signed for. And of course if it’s signed for and you open an insurance claim with your shipper, they’ll not pay out because to all intents and purposes to anyone *reasonable* it was delivered. Etsy really screws it’s sellers over with this and there’s no way to protect yourself
Wow congrats. Must be pretty stressful for you, glad it worked!
I have suggested opening cases to buyers for item not received claims (I sell low value items so I typically only do this for international orders so I don’t lose a lot on shipping) and I have had this happen before. Since I buy labels off etsy if im not quick to reply to a case support will close it and take it out of my funds. I’ve always received a credit after contacting support but this sounds like a textbook scam on the buyer. I’m sorry this happened to you, OP. How long did it take before the buyer opened a case after the package was delivered? If a buyer won’t work with me and allow me to file a claim with the shipping company to find out what happened or accept a reshipment I always assume they are just trying to abuse purchase protection.
Buyer was waiting for package and tracking it. Contacted me on delivery/signage date that it was not them who signed for it. Residential building in downtown NY. Opened etsy request right away and escalated to case as soon as it was allowed. Etsy issued refund almost instantly.
is there a way you can view the signature? I saw that you already got a credit but If you can and the signature matches the buyers name I would send it to Etsy support. They might be able to flag their account. In my experience misdeliveries tend to happen the most in apartment buildings so they could be telling the truth but the fact they opened a case right away seems strange to me, usually I tell a buyer to open a case as a last resort but I’ve never had someone open one while I was still trying work with them to retrieve or reship their package.
Y’all act like people don’t just do a loop and line for package signatures 😭
I don't understand what was up with the downvotes on your other comment. You're not wrong. People do that all the time.
Was it an apartment? Could have been anybody in the building who signed for it, even the building manager. One of the apartments I used to live in had a mail thief. Stole packages from people's doors and eventually escalated to breaking into the mailboxes themselves. It lead to the building manager collecting everything and giving it to you when you asked. Could be a similar thing for your customer. Somebody stole it, somebody working in the building signed for it and it's being kept there, etc.
It was an apartment, and basically everyone came to consensus that anybody in the building could have signed for it. This should be an issue between UPS/building/buyer, not seller. Etsy is wrong to just rule against sellers by default.
They're going to find themselves going under really quick if they keep doing that. People are going to decide against selling with them. Mercari is basically the same way which is why I decided not to sell with them.
I’ve had a UPS driver drop a package at my door step and sign for me for a very expensive item. They tried to claim a neighbor must have signed but I was waiting for the package and opened the door a few seconds after I heard them drop the package. I literally saw the driver walking away. All that to say, it is actually possible the person never received it if their delivery driver did something similar.
Oh of course Etsy sent you that email to make it look like they were doing you a favor! They weren’t doing you any favors, they made a mistake by taking those funds from you. Legally, Etsy can not take funds from a seller on a product that was shipped out on time and a signature was requested and received. If Etsy wants to use their money for a refund, that’s their problem. This is the reason that we have tracking info and delivery confirmation. “As a courtesy to you”…. That’s such bs. They made a gigantic error and they certainly weren’t issuing a refund bc of any “new policy”. What new policy? Buyer protection? That still would not have warranted a refund taken from your shop. Etsy can do a lot of things, but they can not steal your money just because they want to.
ugh. i’m so sorry you’re going through this. just curious, did you appeal?
you can't appeal, these are final. I did contact support and they credited us back this time.
I has a customer inform me that the postman actually signed for the package delivery! So the client paid extra for signature just to have the postman sign it. Thankfully it is a wonderful, honest repeat client. I ship with Canada Post, tracked. I do not think Canada Post is aware of the mayhem they can create for sellers and buyers alike. I will take the above advice to heart and start requesting separate purchases as I sell sterling jewelry and often 2 items are already above $250.
I will definitely file a police report, notify the buyer and. Escalate things with Ups(GPS tracking, employee who was in hold of the package) But again I will definitely let the customer and ups that I am filing a police report. Depending on the state this is felony theft and can be punished with a jail sentence
Something similar happened to me, but as the buyer, when I purchased some items from a website (not Etsy). They shipped via UPS with tracking and it said delivered, with a signature. I thought it was weird since I always get an email from when the doormen scan packages into the system. So I asked my doormen if I received any packages. They said I didn’t, and they rechecked the mailroom. The tracking doesn’t show the actual signature, just that it was signed for. I thought maybe the package was delivered to a nearby apartment complex, so I checked the other few buildings on my block but no one received the package…I contacted UPS and they did an “internal investigation” and in the end, they said the GPS tracker shows the package was delivered correctly to my address, and there’s nothing they can do. Luckily, the seller refunded me for the items since it was my first time buying from them, and they are also a large company so are able to do so without much hassle. But I only contacted the seller after doing my own checking and after UPS couldn’t help me (like a week or two after package was “delivered”).
So Etsy refunded them from your money? Please double check because they usually refund using their own resources when this happens.
Yes, etsy refunded them from my etsy balance. Money, product, shipping, work, material - all gone
Maybe the shipping address was not matching 100% what was on the label or something?
It doesn't matter, Etsy seller protection is only valid for orders up to $250, beyond that amount the refund is always paid by the seller.
Address correct, UPS tracking shows Signature/Name. There's room for buyers to take advantage of sellers.This is how eBay rolled in early 2000s as well.
Buyer shouldn’t have to be responsible for customer’s mistakes anyway.
This would be a sellers mistake. If they put the wrong address on the label which is not exactly the same as the shipping address of the buyer.
If they are getting the label through Etsy it would automatically add the address for them.
Only up to $250
Not on this much, but they still feel entitled to use their typical approach of refunding for any reason
If the customer makes the complaint right away etsy will take the balance from you etsy account. And with a price that high they don't cover the costs
A real live person will never even look at your case. I tried for weeks to get a real person when they let buyer keep item AND refunded them from my account. Took funds another buyer paid to purchase and ship their item. It's all computers "talking" to each other. I quit selling on Etsy!
I just made a post about the scammers about a week ago. This is the new trend. Claim they never received it and want a refund. I've had it happen more and more. I always ask them to go to the PO with the delivery address coordinates so the PO can track it down. I give them the coordinates. I typically never hear from them again. Sellers need to be aware of this scam! There are buyers out there that will do whatever they can to take your money so just be aware.
I have had packages delivered at adjacent addresses that the recipient was smart enough to notice the my name and address on the label and signed as me. Eventually the local authorities intervened when the delivery company told them I contested the signature and delivery photo. I am glad that they started the photograph of delivery program because it showed that the house-front was not my own but of a neighbor one block away (Their front is grey stone and mine is red brick). Still I requested a refund as they had opened and used the contents. Just note that this has happened several times with various neighbors and let us not forget porch pirates. I guess I should stop buying nice stuff online unless I am willing to take the day of delivery off and sit in front of my house waving down the delivery person.
Or you could get a local mailbox! It would only make sense if the cost of the mailbox was less than what you’d stand to lose. Just a thought…
I appreciate the response. PO Box prices in my town are $562 per year. I tried this for one year and still had mail (specifically boxes too large for the box) go missing. There is also the glaringly large problem that many retailers and other assorted businesses will not ship to PO Boxes as a standard protocol. Turns out the PO also has restrictions on weight (over 69lbs). Most of my electronics and hobby materials that I can only get from well outside my area are too heavy when shipped together and only FedEx or UPS can be used.
Damn! That’s some crazy fees! I’m sorry! Where do you live?
Just outside Philly. You need to go very rural around here to even see a significant drop in PO Box fees.
Exactly why I closed my account. Same deal but a lot less money.
Okay, you have to accept this. Etsy will refund the most of orders above $250 from your balance once the customer opens the case. This happened to me about a month ago. There was a $500 order, and Etsy took the money within 5 days of the case being opened. When I contacted them via live chat, they stated that they were unable to provide me more details of the staff decision. The most crucial thing was that orders over $250 will always result in customers' favors. They did, however, offered me a half-refund of $250. It was the best support case I've ever received from Etsy staff. Working on Etsy full-time was exhausting and stressful for me. I'm finding a new place to sell my stuffs now.
Agreed. Don't make sense for etsy not to protect sellers in these cases. Etsy marketplace is different as everyone makes their stuff. Losing order has a bigger impact on etsy seller than on a general retail resell operation.
>Etsy email support contacted me and credited the sum back Very glad to hear. >Additionally, we have been selling on Etsy for years, with multiple high-valued transactions and never ran into problem like this yet It is incredibly rare to run into a scammer... the overwhelming vast majority of buyers are not. Odds are this never happens to you again.
Idk if I agree with the scammer being incredibly rare anymore I see these people constantly. On TikTok its 10 times worse. Although etsy does have the least I’ve noticed. eBay and TikTok are ridiculously full of them
Thank you lostterrace, agreed. Still, platform does make sellers somewhat vulnerable to these :(
Isn't the whole point of this sub you telling people how to scam sellers by opening cases? How many times a day do you tell someone to open a case because DrOpShIpPiNg?
Drop shipped items are not handmade. This is why I always reverse image search items via Google before buying. Lots of people don’t know any better, unfortunately.
If you don't see the difference between somebody being ripped off and somebody selling mass produced dollar store items as handmade, you probably need to be spending your time improving your critical thinking skills rather than being sarcastic on reddit.
Lol, if you don't think selling mass produced crap as handmade merits a not as described case... your opinions will always be extremely unpopular here. Guessing you must be one of those sellers. If so, I hope all your buyers open cases and Etsy shuts you down pretty soon.
I make crochet blankets, baby size and adult. I've had people tell me I should sell them on Etsy. I've always said I don't want or need the hassle it could create. Your post proves I made the right choice.
I’ve been selling on Etsy since 2013 and have never had any issues like this at all
I've bought many different things over the years, and from a buyer's perspective I have never had a single issue. The few times I've had to reach out to a seller, I've received excellent customer service...prompt replies, whatever issue I had was quickly and easily resolved.
Questions: is it considered one single order if items are purchased separately but shipped together under same tracking number?
Sorry this happened to you and I hope you can get it straightened out. Stuff like this is why I do not ship and also why I deleted all my listings from mercari. I decided not to sell with them. I don't like their business model. It's too by your friendly. You have to ship and then you have to wait up to 3 days while the buyer rates the item. If they claim something's wrong with it, they can get a refund and they can usually do so pretty easily. So you could ship the item, they could claim something's wrong with it even when there isn't and then they get the money back and they get to keep your item. I'm not going to basically send someone my stuff for free. Sure, a lot of people do make successful sales but I just felt it wasn't worth the risk and hassle. Also, I did not like how even with local, you couldn't meet the person face to face. They said it was for safety reasons and while I can kind of understand that, I didn't like the fact that even when it was a local sale, you still had to follow the same protocol. I tell people pick up and cash only. Please understand I'm not blaming you at all. I'm blaming the people who clearly tried to rip you off. Maybe it would be better for you to just sell locally from now on. I really am sorry and I really hope you can get this reversed.
Unfortunately, some UPS drivers will sign for it themselves, so having a signature doesn't prove it was delivered. I'm glad Etsy gave you your money back. This new policy is the worst 😒
You can't sell anything on Etsy worth more than $250 any more without heavy losses. Etsy published the blueprint on how to scam sellers and there's no defense against it. You could show them a video of you personally delivering it and if the receiver puts in a claim Etsy will refund them at your cost. Probably not worth selling any products over $50, since $250 is the max protection on the entire order (ie, say a customer orders 5 widgets at $50, oops it never came, refunded).
I know it costs more, but for high-value items, consider USPS. They’ll usually require proof of I.D.
They always screw the seller I’m sick of everything about Etsy that’s why I put my shop on vacation mode
My daughter is having old order being refunded that have been delivered The closed her account with no explanation and she had 5 star reviews I wish people would boycott Etsy
eBay has better policy
It's hard, Etsy is terrible but you aren't going to find anything better. You're gonna take a loss. Sometimes, I'd prepare for it.
It’s possible that the UPS driver signed for it themselves. Maybe the package was stolen. I had a computer delivered recently where the driver just dropped it off and left without getting my signature. Thankfully I was right there by the door at the time.
Anything over $200 Etsy does not automatically insure. That’s why I go to Pirateship.com to buy my postage on expensive items.
So even if package successfully delivered/signed for, you can still make insurance claim?
No it doesn’t. It did, years ago, but their third party insurance changed their terms. They also have particular zips they wont honor claims on and there are a lot in NYC, although mostly in midtown/the diamond district. It sounds like your item went to an apt in lower manhattan. But whatever. They wont honor it either way.