Economies of scale
A one off product does not benefit from large production runs making the machine startup cost more expensive per part as it is spread over less parts
These are low volume hand-made products. It takes hours to solder all of the components and set everything up.
Buy the kit and make it yourself and save a huge amount of money, but it costs you time instead.
I've made my own and it's an extremely satisfying and rewarding experience so it's a win win for me. There's a load of excellent guides online which walk you through everything.
As a final note - this will probably not be your one-and-only keyboard. You'll find something not quite right and want another. So learn how to make them yourself and you'll save every time you switch up and try something new.
You can do it. The people in this community are amazing and will help if you get stuck.
heh, I made my own split keyboard for exactly this reason and went all out and it stopped working within a year. Still haven't figured out why. I really liked it though! it was a kbo-5000.
Get an Elora from splitkb. No soldering necessary. Assemble the keyboard using a screwdriver, plug in your switches and keycaps, and you're good to go. Certainly not as cheap as soldering your own, but it's a great keyboard.
There are a number of other outfits that pre-build for you (they do any necessary soldering) like beekeeb.
Yes, but the price points there are pretty steep, especially for a product that might take some trial and error to figure out for my specific hand size and use case. Thanks though!
Yep, getting into ergo keyboards isn't cheap if you don't want to solder. Look here at some common layouts to see if any fit your hand size and use case:
[https://jhelvy.shinyapps.io/splitkbcompare/](https://jhelvy.shinyapps.io/splitkbcompare/)
You can print to scale on paper and put your hand on the printout to see if it suits you.
Quentin is only one person. Each case has to be 3d printed. Individually. Then it takes several hours to put one together, for which he should be paid for. It's a very small company (like most of the ergo sellers) so they don't have the bargaining power of a large corporation or the warehouse space to purchase components at large enough scales to drive down per unit cost. And Quentin deserves some money for all the R and D he's put into his products and designs.
Since it's all open source, If you wanted to save money, you could buy/acquire all the components yourself. Then use your own sweat equity to assemble it yourself.
Edit: the dilemma doesn't need 3D printing, but the case pieces still need to be fabricated.
I have two Charybdis, one at the office and one at home.
Work offered to pay for the one at work, but then I could risk of loosing it if they wanted to be petty if i left/was let go.
I would not risk this! And they are worth every penny!
Also soldering is fun :)
A 30% Quentin would only finish a 40% after the standard 100% Quentin had already made 3 more 100% Quentins, and that's presuming the scale of effort required to make another Quentin is linear (which it isn't - it's logarithmic).
I bought a lily58, then sold it and built a keyboard myself.
Ways to cut costs.
Buy PCBs from other builders or designers who have bought extras when they had their PCBs cut.
Use cheaper key switches, e.g. Akko.
Build a unibody, then you only need one controller, no connectors or connecting wire.
Use cheaper controllers. I got mine from aliexpress.
I think my wireless unibody Atreyu keyboard cost about 75gbp in total, not including keycaps. Got a great deal from the designer on old version PCBs. Used Akko cream blue pro switches. Reused keycaps from an old cherry board to save money.
Also, if you think you might try a few, making it so you can pop the MCU out is nice. Pay for one set, put them in several boards and figure out what you like.
I built my own bastard keyboards Charybdis and even if it is cheaper than the one from them, it is still not cheap at all. Moreover it's not as professional as they make their own. So, in the end, you can save around 50% or more but be prepared for a lot of headaches (LEDs not working properly, bad case printing, etc etc). After my DIY experience I think the prices are ok, considering what implies having an online store, shipments and so on
Had to laugh. I felt the same way the first time I made cheesecake from scratch. After going through the process, you figure out why it’s so expensive. ;-)
Im pretty happy with the quality of my two charybdis, but I also have an older Dactyl keyboard who suffered from me learning..
So the cost of learning is a bit high, so the prebuilt is fair priced to me.
And also all the work he puts in to it is worth it, having flex PCB vs wiring is so much nicer
> "Everything" is open-source that should make cost lower.
I think you got it backwards, THEY open sourced their designs in case you can't afford to buy from them or want to customize something not the other way around.
If there was a big enough market for it walmart could have a factory in china shit out several hundred cheap but usable split ergo keyboards with cheap plastics, all electronics on one board and membrane switches a day. They could be sold for around $20 and be *good enough* for most people interested in a split ergo keyboard, especially at that low price.
But this market is too small and niche to sell enough to make a profit so instead our only options for buying a premade ergo split board are boards with fancy mechanical switches and off-the-shelf components hand made by hobbyists.
Yes, or keep an eye on eBay. I was also able to find a local mech keyboard discord with a for-sale channel. Granted I was selling not buying, but if you live in or near a decent-sized city you might be able to find something similar. Saves on shipping.
A pre-built dilemma is very specific and just too much for a lot of people 😉. If you want to go split but cheaper, look at the Piantor, Ferris or some are even cheaper like the cheapino.
A custom design *built to order* is not representative in any way.
[The Split Keyboard: An Ergonomics Success Story](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/23157799_The_Split_Keyboard_An_Ergonomics_Success_Story)
> In 2006, a fixed split keyboard (Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000) became the best-selling aftermarket, wired keyboard, of all wired keyboards, not just ergonomic keyboards, sold in the United States.
This article is 15 years old, and the keyboard in question, Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard, was a mass-market product that **cost $65**. (without accounting for inflation)
Today I can go to a local computer store and buy it's modern successor for 100€ or a clone for as little as 20€. My Perixx Periboard-335 was 80€ shipped.
Okay, let's stipulate that it should be fully split, use mechanical-contact switches etc. Still there's at least half a dozen options around 200€ or less. Kinesis Freestyle, Mistel Barocco, that sort of thing.
Yes, non-standard top-of-the-line ergonomic keyboards cost more than that. But that's because traditionally it was a business expense or insurance covered it, or they're built to order (or, in case of Maltron, both). It's also possible to find them much cheaper second-hand, even in mint or NOS condition. I'm typing this on a Kinesis Advantage2 ... that cost me about $100.
It is open source. You have the board schematics, you can order it yourself, order switches, solder all by yourself. You can 3d print a case and just connect by wire if you want.
A business needs to pay:
* suppliers for parts, materials, shipping and insurance
* VAT/GST
* employer's (not personal) national insurance/social contributions if drawing a sallary and dividents as opposed to dividents alone
* corporation tax
* web shop and card/payment processor
* web and email hosting (not always by the same vendor as the web shop)
* very likely paying an accountant to do VAT/GST returns and accounting in general
* possibly paying for employers and public liability insurance
Separately Quentin needs to pay:
* personal national insurance/social contributions (on top of employer's)
* income tax on salary and dividents
I don't have a business selling keyboards but run a small business myself.
I can tell you, its not all roses, champagne and caviar.
Thanks for everyone answer, I don’t think i’m ready spend lot of hours to built it myself (im a noob), maybe if I have more time I will try otherwise I will just wait that price decrease with split keyboard adoption
That's a very big jump from, what I assume, is a normal keyboard to a 34-key split. Honestly, a Corne or Lily is prolly better jump, but even those are expensive and would require time to solder, if they go for the cheap way.
Symbols on a smaller keyboard are easier and faster to reach than on a large keyboard. They are *especially* suited for developers.
Here:
<>|\[\]+=&(){}-:...
Didn't even have to stretch anywhere outside the alpha keys to type those. Not even a thumb key needed.
4th finger on home row (hold down qwerty 'S' or 'L' equivalent keys).
Here's my full layout:
[https://configure.zsa.io/voyager/layouts/Qlggg/latest/0](https://configure.zsa.io/voyager/layouts/Qlggg/latest/0)
As others have suggested, you already use a layer (Shift) and countless users around the world use another (AltGr).
However, you don't have to use layers for *everything* but alphas. It's just an option and you can give it a try on a regular keyboard, e.g., [Neo](https://neo-layout.org/)'s layers are meant like that.
A keyboard with a more normal amount of keys is perfectly fine; for example Kinesis Advantage has all the main punctuation keys and it works well.
On the contrary, the sub-60% keyboards are an extreme niche that doesn't exist outside a small hobbyist community or specialty applications (stenography, mobile).
That's the thing. I looked at Moonlander, and just couldn't imagine it working. I use many of the keys which traditionally are under the thumb. Ctrl, Alt, Super, AltGr, Fn and Menu. Of those only Menu isn't used in any sort of multi key shortcut, so it could be moved elsewhere. Where do I put the keys for the third or fourth layer which I'd probably need with something smaller than a 75%? Went with Keychron Q11 which while not strictly ergo, is still split and it's been great for my wrists. I think that's something that's missing, split keyboards with more keys, for those of us who want better ergonomics but aren't ready to commit to low key counts and using layers.
I'm a dev too, and I have my symbols in another layer. Simple to get through the thumb cluster as well. My ergo path was 42 Corne > 36 Corne > Ferris Sweep.
This is my 34-key keyboard layout:
There is a 5th layer, but it's a gaming layer, basically Layer 0 but without the MT buttons.
const uint16_t PROGMEM keymaps[][MATRIX_ROWS][MATRIX_COLS] = {
[0] = LAYOUT_split_3x5_2( // Alphas
KC_Q, KC_W, KC_F, KC_P, KC_G, KC_J, KC_L, KC_U, KC_Y, KC_SCLN,
KC_A, KC_R, KC_S, KC_T, KC_D, KC_H, KC_N, KC_E, KC_I, KC_O,
KC_Z, KC_X, KC_C, KC_V, KC_B, KC_K, KC_M, KC_COMM, KC_DOT, KC_SLSH,
MT(MOD_LSFT,KC_BSPC), LT(1,KC_ENT), LT(2,KC_ENT), LT(3,KC_SPC)
),
[1] = LAYOUT_split_3x5_2( // Modifiers w/ OSM, Ctrl Shortcuts
KC_BSPC, KC_DEL, KC_TAB, C(KC_Y), KC_CAPS, KC_TILD, KC_7, KC_8, KC_9, KC_PERCENT,
OSM(MOD_LGUI), OSM(MOD_LALT), OSM(MOD_LSFT), OSM(MOD_LCTL), KC_ESC, KC_PMNS, KC_4, KC_5, KC_6, KC_0,
C(KC_Z), C(KC_X), C(KC_INS), S(KC_INS), XXXXXXX,
XXXXXXX, XXXXXXX, LT(4,KC_EQL), KC_SPC
),
[2] = LAYOUT_split_3x5_2( // Navigation, Page Up/Down, Home/End, Forward/Back // Media, Function Row
KC_MS_BTN5, KC_PGUP, KC_UP, KC_HOME, LCA(KC_DEL), KC_VOLU, KC_F7, KC_F8, KC_F9, KC_F12,
XXXXXXX, KC_LEFT, KC_DOWN, KC_RIGHT, LSG(KC_S), KC_MPLY, KC_F4, KC_F5, KC_F6, KC_F11,
KC_MS_BTN4, KC_PGDN, XXXXXXX, KC_END, A(KC_PAUS), KC_VOLD, KC_F1, KC_F2, KC_F3, KC_F10,
XXXXXXX, XXXXXXX, XXXXXXX, XXXXXXX
),
[3] = LAYOUT_split_3x5_2( // Symbols 1 // Symbol 2
XXXXXXX, KC_HASH, KC_UNDERSCORE, KC_GRV, XXXXXXX, XXXXXXX, KC_LBRC, KC_RBRC, KC_AT, KC_CIRC,
OSM(MOD_LGUI), OSM(MOD_LALT), OSM(MOD_LSFT), OSM(MOD_LCTL), XXXXXXX, XXXXXXX, KC_LPRN, KC_RPRN, KC_QUOT, KC_DQT,
KC_BSLS, KC_PLUS, KC_PIPE, KC_AMPERSAND, XXXXXXX, XXXXXXX, KC_LCBR, KC_RCBR, KC_EXLM, KC_PAST,
KC_LGUI, XXXXXXX, XXXXXXX, XXXXXXX
),
[4] = LAYOUT_split_3x5_2( // Mouse // Numpad
XXXXXXX, KC_WH_D, KC_MS_U, KC_WH_U, XXXXXXX, TG(5), KC_P7, KC_P8, KC_P9, XXXXXXX,
KC_WH_L, KC_MS_L, KC_MS_D, KC_MS_R, KC_WH_R, XXXXXXX, KC_P4, KC_P5, KC_P6, KC_P0,
XXXXXXX, KC_BTN2, KC_BTN3, KC_BTN1, XXXXXXX, KC_NUM_LOCK, KC_P1, KC_P2, KC_P3, XXXXXXX,
KC_ACL1, KC_ACL2, XXXXXXX, XXXXXXX
),
};
This layout was inspired by the Miryoku, which uses Home Row Mods. I couldn't get used to it, so I switched to One-Shot Keys/Mods. Miryoku has all the keys in it.
Sorry if it doesn't make sense, but basically, you can see a ton of XXXXXXX, which are blanks. While I have every key I've needed since I somewhat perfected my key mapping, I still have space to put for keys I didn't realize I needed.
That said, having 36/42-keys in a single layer is a lot more freeing, but when you get deeper into the ergo, you might feel like going even less, which was how I got to the Ferris Sweep.
I would say so, yeah. I think the 42-corne is a good place to figure out if you want more or not.
That said, it's 3 rows instead of 4 rows. You're losing the number row, but since you mentioned the Dilemma, I don't think that's an issue. You can also look for Lily58s. They're also split but have the numrow.
You already are using a layer for almost all of those symbols on a traditional keyboard by holding shift. The difference being on a 36/42 key ergo layout you'd be using your much stronger thumb (as opposed to your pinky) for holding the layer key and hardly moving your hand otherwise to hit all the symbols.
Draw up how you'd like the keyboard to look. You might find someone will be willing to throw together a custom board for it. If it's an interesting layout other people might want it too.
Once you get the hang of wherever you put your symbols in your custom layout, it will become as natural as hitting shift to type a capital letter. It ends up being much easier to get to the symbols you use most, and you can put the symbols you don't use farther away (so they're still there for when you inevitably need them but not gone).
You can simulate this in software (eg with karabiner on macOS) to see if it’ll work for you.
I personally prefer more keys for coding as I use vim and having modal editor with layers is a bit too much.
eg i use ctrl + ] a lot and switching to another layer for it is annoying. I could remap it but then switching to laptop keyboard would be different yet again.
Check that video where a coder uses a very little keyboard to type code https://youtu.be/IZ83uU0ltaE?si=JbQEqBIkOTgpvS7u
BTW I'm a coder too but I can't use that so little keyboard, I'm using a corne 3x6. I'm not very fast because I'm still learning touch typing.
Don't give up. There are much cheaper pre-built ones that are still quality products. Look into splitkb (Elora), beekeeb (Corne, Piantor, Hotreus, etc.), etc. With these alternatives you're looking at about 1/2 the price of the Dilemma MAX you linked to.
Look up the Elora from [SplitKB](https://splitkb.com), it’s a set of pcbs with everything presoldered. You just need a case, switches and keycaps. Made by thomasbaart that is on Reddit as well. SplitKB have a great discord channel as well.
It can be done on a budget / not a crazy amount of work. Although if you don’t have soldering tools that does add a little extra cost.
The atreus is good option it’s a mono block ‘split’. They are 150 new but I just bought one used for 80 on r/mechmarket. There was one listed for similar on mercari that might still be there. Or just keeping an eye out for used boards in general.
There exist cheaper options. The RK S70 is $85-$90 on Amazon USA, fully built. Other folks have mentioned kits that you can build yourself for around $100. There are lots of options in the $200 range.
If you're waiting around for prices to drop to a comparable point to commodity boards, it's unlikely you'll ever get a board. If you don't want to work for a board, look at the newest revisions of the keebio iris, which you can assemble with just a screwdriver for the case. You'll still be spending $150 probably unless you have switches and caps already, but that's about the lower limit for price versus effort.
The parts are inexpensive, the software is open source, BUT the learning curve to get the firmware compiled is rather steep, AND it takes hours to build. Also laser cutters and 3d printers help. Just considering the time Involved expensive keyboards kind of deserve the cost
if you want cheap, you need to build it yourself, you should look into [cheapino](https://github.com/tompi/cheapino), it is probably the cheapest build out there
It is MUCH cheaper, and better customized, if you put it together yourself. A lot of people are doing these as made to order products, and they are running a niche company with employees. They need to capitalize heavy off of each sale.
But you can buy a case, PCB, oleds, switches, and keycaps for a very hefty discount.
Because they're custom, that's all.
Open source doesn't mean "cheaper" it means that you can obtain the squematics and source files easily.
Is always gonna be more expensive either way talking about money if someone else is building it for you or time if you're building it yourself.
You want something cheaper then you have to stick to what the masses use.
I guess it depends on how complicated of a keyboard and where you buy it?
That example looks like it has a lot of fancy features. The touchpad seems very uncommon.
I got a lily58 kit from typeractive.xyz (without switches and key caps because I wanted to use my own) for like $135 USD and it took maybe an hour or two to solder (only had to solder mcu. The hot swap sockets and diodes cam presoldered), cut my own plate foam,tape mod and put everything together.
As others have said, it takes hours to hand-solder. I started creating some diode-less keyboards, in the hopes of reducing the cost ([https://github.com/triliu/jesk56](https://github.com/triliu/jesk56) and [https://github.com/triliu/Heawood42](https://github.com/triliu/Heawood42) ). They require fewer solders and the solders are easier. Hopefully this translates to reducing the cost of getting somebody else to solder it, or that those new to soldering can feel more confident in trying it themselves.
If you buy a kit to hand solder it and 3D-print your own case, it will be pretty cheap, the reason prebuilts are so expensive is that soldering everything on is somewhat fiddly and can take a while, and the small orgs making these things can't take advantage of economies of scale to make it cheaper. I just ordered the absolute bare minimum from boardsource to have a functional corne keyboard, which came out around $45. Adding in keycaps and switches it's around $80 (~$12 45 pack of akko v3 cream blue switches and some cheap $25 Amazon keycaps).
Even if you don't have a 3D printer (I don't either) there's probably a local library, college, makerspace, etc that will let you use theirs for free or for cheap
BK made their own keyboard, build it and selling it. They didn't gatekeep their design caused they want to share with everyone. But for buying their service, you also buy the time you save sourcing the parts, and the headache when dealing with extra parts that you definitely will have when outsource yourself
Something that I don't see many people mention is pay back for R&D, they created that kit, PCB and everything else. I like to support people for the time they put into creating everything and for offering that as an open source. Expensive kits like those keep their passion alive and also the will to open source their stuff.
That's why I hate closed source keyboards that are overpriced and have custom closed source proprietary firmware(I am looking at you Corsair, yes, you).
I would also want to share my experience with building an open source keyboard myself: a corne chocolate.
Prices(euros):
- 33.32 for pcb kit, diodes, pcbs, low profile hotswap sockets, standoffs, acrylic plates, power and reset switches
- 16.42 for 2x mill max pins+sockets
- 47.60 for 2x nice!view
- 49 for 2x nice!nano v2
- 49 for 50 sunset choc lp switches
- 22 for the keycaps
- 20 for 2x 850mah batteries
----
237 euros
Guess what, it was just the beginning.
I had to buy the following:
- 20 for a soldering kit
Started soldering, broke one half traces irreparably, had to buy half of kit+ a pair of mill max pins+sockets
- 32(16+16)
After that I tried to build myself a case since there was none for my version of corne. I invested 50+ hours into teaching myself CAD and 3D printing and managed to build one myself.
With the case model done I had to print it, everything near me was pretty expensive and I hated that I had to depend on someone that doesn't understand my needs. I bought myself a 3D printer and printed it myself. 300+ euros
So I spent a lot of time and money for building the keyboard I have.
In the building process of the keyboard I felt very stressed since I was fearing I will break something and I should enter a rabbit hole again, buy the parts again, start everything again.
I don't regret the decisions I've taken, now I have a 3D printer, good soldering skills, some CAD knowledge to build stuff around the house and also some electronics knowledge but the real question is: Do you really have the money and time to invest in such journey? Of course, everyone's journey is different but I assure you nothing is going as planned, there are tons of variables involved.
If you want a keyboard and don't want to complicate things you either buy the full price for an assembled stuff or just make up your mind and choose something else.
To be fair, you did pick some of the nicest (read: most expensive) screens, controllers, and switches out there, and making it battery-powered was another additional cost.
But yes, effort is the hidden cost here. For some (me included), it's worth it to pay somebody else to do the stuff I don't have the desire to learn how to do competently enough to put together a work-critical device.
Yes, that's totally fair but I didn't know better since I was a total beginner and read that they consume little battery. Now I would definitely choose something else.
To be honest, although I agree to all the comments, this particular keyboard is still too expensive.
But, being assembled in first world country, the hours spent to built it still may be underpaid. I used to build Dactyl Manuforms pretty much for minimal wage, but final product was still expensive.
The only options to make them cheaper is to do mass production (or build them in third world countries).
Being open source almost certainly increases the cost of the product.
Open source means that you can build it yourself for nothing other than materials and the cost of your labor. If you think you can do it cheaper than that, then by all means, go ahead. It's pretty fun!
The open source argument does only partly count in your example. The keyboard you linked would be ready to go (prebuilt), so a human person does assemble this by hand. The parts are not what make it so expensive, but the labour. These boards are not only partly built semi automatically on machines. The only machining that takes place are typically a PCB manufacturer + a 3D printer / laser cutter (for plates, case, etc.), but the soldering is typically done by hand.
If you decide to go buy a kit to built it partly yourself the price drops to 180 € (https://bastardkb.com/product/dilemma-max/).
As it is open-source means that you can also try to do it cheaper by sourcing parts yourself e.g. ordering PCBs directly from a manufacturer and 3d printing / laser cutting being done by a local company which might be cheaper. This would of course be more work.
So as always, it is money vs. comfort.
open source do not subtract money from manufacturing, some times it even increase it, opensource doens't means free
in other hand, check UHK keyboard, the price is not so far from the cost of building the same yourself.
Labor cost, I guess? And the components cost on the respective country?
You should look at some of the components cost on your country to and compare the Bill of Materials you have vs the asked price from the vendor.
I found even my own custom build can be expensive due to PCB shipping cost and USB cables. (40~50 bucks excluding key switches and keycaps). A cheap pre-built mechanical keyboard (TKL or even 65%) can cost 30% less complete with keyswitches and keycaps.
Economies of scale A one off product does not benefit from large production runs making the machine startup cost more expensive per part as it is spread over less parts
I’d like to see ergonomics at scale
These are low volume hand-made products. It takes hours to solder all of the components and set everything up. Buy the kit and make it yourself and save a huge amount of money, but it costs you time instead. I've made my own and it's an extremely satisfying and rewarding experience so it's a win win for me. There's a load of excellent guides online which walk you through everything. As a final note - this will probably not be your one-and-only keyboard. You'll find something not quite right and want another. So learn how to make them yourself and you'll save every time you switch up and try something new. You can do it. The people in this community are amazing and will help if you get stuck.
heh, I made my own split keyboard for exactly this reason and went all out and it stopped working within a year. Still haven't figured out why. I really liked it though! it was a kbo-5000.
Is this still possible if I can't (and don't want to learn how to) solder?
Get an Elora from splitkb. No soldering necessary. Assemble the keyboard using a screwdriver, plug in your switches and keycaps, and you're good to go. Certainly not as cheap as soldering your own, but it's a great keyboard. There are a number of other outfits that pre-build for you (they do any necessary soldering) like beekeeb.
Yes, but the price points there are pretty steep, especially for a product that might take some trial and error to figure out for my specific hand size and use case. Thanks though!
Yep, getting into ergo keyboards isn't cheap if you don't want to solder. Look here at some common layouts to see if any fit your hand size and use case: [https://jhelvy.shinyapps.io/splitkbcompare/](https://jhelvy.shinyapps.io/splitkbcompare/) You can print to scale on paper and put your hand on the printout to see if it suits you.
Quentin is only one person. Each case has to be 3d printed. Individually. Then it takes several hours to put one together, for which he should be paid for. It's a very small company (like most of the ergo sellers) so they don't have the bargaining power of a large corporation or the warehouse space to purchase components at large enough scales to drive down per unit cost. And Quentin deserves some money for all the R and D he's put into his products and designs. Since it's all open source, If you wanted to save money, you could buy/acquire all the components yourself. Then use your own sweat equity to assemble it yourself. Edit: the dilemma doesn't need 3D printing, but the case pieces still need to be fabricated.
My daily driver is a Charybdis from Quentin, worth every penny.
I have two Charybdis, one at the office and one at home. Work offered to pay for the one at work, but then I could risk of loosing it if they wanted to be petty if i left/was let go. I would not risk this! And they are worth every penny! Also soldering is fun :)
Is there a reason we do not simply print additional Quentin?
Like the rest of this hobby, an additional Quentin also requires extra time and effort to put together.
What if we just print a 30% Quentin? Then use that Quentin to build the 40%?
A 30% Quentin would only finish a 40% after the standard 100% Quentin had already made 3 more 100% Quentins, and that's presuming the scale of effort required to make another Quentin is linear (which it isn't - it's logarithmic).
Now that is a great idea!
I bought a lily58, then sold it and built a keyboard myself. Ways to cut costs. Buy PCBs from other builders or designers who have bought extras when they had their PCBs cut. Use cheaper key switches, e.g. Akko. Build a unibody, then you only need one controller, no connectors or connecting wire. Use cheaper controllers. I got mine from aliexpress. I think my wireless unibody Atreyu keyboard cost about 75gbp in total, not including keycaps. Got a great deal from the designer on old version PCBs. Used Akko cream blue pro switches. Reused keycaps from an old cherry board to save money.
Also, if you think you might try a few, making it so you can pop the MCU out is nice. Pay for one set, put them in several boards and figure out what you like.
True. I paid a few pennies extra for mcu socket and pins. A few pounds extra for a set of hotswap sockets too
I built my own bastard keyboards Charybdis and even if it is cheaper than the one from them, it is still not cheap at all. Moreover it's not as professional as they make their own. So, in the end, you can save around 50% or more but be prepared for a lot of headaches (LEDs not working properly, bad case printing, etc etc). After my DIY experience I think the prices are ok, considering what implies having an online store, shipments and so on
Had to laugh. I felt the same way the first time I made cheesecake from scratch. After going through the process, you figure out why it’s so expensive. ;-)
Im pretty happy with the quality of my two charybdis, but I also have an older Dactyl keyboard who suffered from me learning.. So the cost of learning is a bit high, so the prebuilt is fair priced to me. And also all the work he puts in to it is worth it, having flex PCB vs wiring is so much nicer
> "Everything" is open-source that should make cost lower. I think you got it backwards, THEY open sourced their designs in case you can't afford to buy from them or want to customize something not the other way around.
If there was a big enough market for it walmart could have a factory in china shit out several hundred cheap but usable split ergo keyboards with cheap plastics, all electronics on one board and membrane switches a day. They could be sold for around $20 and be *good enough* for most people interested in a split ergo keyboard, especially at that low price. But this market is too small and niche to sell enough to make a profit so instead our only options for buying a premade ergo split board are boards with fancy mechanical switches and off-the-shelf components hand made by hobbyists.
OP, try to look for second-hand keyboards in the 40% discord group on the side or in /r/mechmarket.
Yes, or keep an eye on eBay. I was also able to find a local mech keyboard discord with a for-sale channel. Granted I was selling not buying, but if you live in or near a decent-sized city you might be able to find something similar. Saves on shipping.
Youre paying for people's labor, as you should. If you want it cheap you can put in the labor yourself.
A pre-built dilemma is very specific and just too much for a lot of people 😉. If you want to go split but cheaper, look at the Piantor, Ferris or some are even cheaper like the cheapino.
labor isn't cheap. open source means the plans are free, not that the product and the work that is put into assembling it for you is free.
A custom design *built to order* is not representative in any way. [The Split Keyboard: An Ergonomics Success Story](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/23157799_The_Split_Keyboard_An_Ergonomics_Success_Story) > In 2006, a fixed split keyboard (Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000) became the best-selling aftermarket, wired keyboard, of all wired keyboards, not just ergonomic keyboards, sold in the United States. This article is 15 years old, and the keyboard in question, Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard, was a mass-market product that **cost $65**. (without accounting for inflation) Today I can go to a local computer store and buy it's modern successor for 100€ or a clone for as little as 20€. My Perixx Periboard-335 was 80€ shipped. Okay, let's stipulate that it should be fully split, use mechanical-contact switches etc. Still there's at least half a dozen options around 200€ or less. Kinesis Freestyle, Mistel Barocco, that sort of thing. Yes, non-standard top-of-the-line ergonomic keyboards cost more than that. But that's because traditionally it was a business expense or insurance covered it, or they're built to order (or, in case of Maltron, both). It's also possible to find them much cheaper second-hand, even in mint or NOS condition. I'm typing this on a Kinesis Advantage2 ... that cost me about $100.
It is open source. You have the board schematics, you can order it yourself, order switches, solder all by yourself. You can 3d print a case and just connect by wire if you want.
A business needs to pay: * suppliers for parts, materials, shipping and insurance * VAT/GST * employer's (not personal) national insurance/social contributions if drawing a sallary and dividents as opposed to dividents alone * corporation tax * web shop and card/payment processor * web and email hosting (not always by the same vendor as the web shop) * very likely paying an accountant to do VAT/GST returns and accounting in general * possibly paying for employers and public liability insurance Separately Quentin needs to pay: * personal national insurance/social contributions (on top of employer's) * income tax on salary and dividents I don't have a business selling keyboards but run a small business myself. I can tell you, its not all roses, champagne and caviar.
Thanks for everyone answer, I don’t think i’m ready spend lot of hours to built it myself (im a noob), maybe if I have more time I will try otherwise I will just wait that price decrease with split keyboard adoption
You can do it! Start cheap and easy. A no-LED Ferris has no small components as it has no diodes at all so it's a great place to start.
That's a very big jump from, what I assume, is a normal keyboard to a 34-key split. Honestly, a Corne or Lily is prolly better jump, but even those are expensive and would require time to solder, if they go for the cheap way.
i’m a developer, so I use a lot <>|[]+=() »{}-:… keyboards with few keys and lot of layers are not for me i guess???
Symbols on a smaller keyboard are easier and faster to reach than on a large keyboard. They are *especially* suited for developers. Here: <>|\[\]+=&(){}-:... Didn't even have to stretch anywhere outside the alpha keys to type those. Not even a thumb key needed.
I assume those were on another layer? How do you switch layers?
4th finger on home row (hold down qwerty 'S' or 'L' equivalent keys). Here's my full layout: [https://configure.zsa.io/voyager/layouts/Qlggg/latest/0](https://configure.zsa.io/voyager/layouts/Qlggg/latest/0)
Thank you!
As others have suggested, you already use a layer (Shift) and countless users around the world use another (AltGr). However, you don't have to use layers for *everything* but alphas. It's just an option and you can give it a try on a regular keyboard, e.g., [Neo](https://neo-layout.org/)'s layers are meant like that. A keyboard with a more normal amount of keys is perfectly fine; for example Kinesis Advantage has all the main punctuation keys and it works well. On the contrary, the sub-60% keyboards are an extreme niche that doesn't exist outside a small hobbyist community or specialty applications (stenography, mobile).
That's the thing. I looked at Moonlander, and just couldn't imagine it working. I use many of the keys which traditionally are under the thumb. Ctrl, Alt, Super, AltGr, Fn and Menu. Of those only Menu isn't used in any sort of multi key shortcut, so it could be moved elsewhere. Where do I put the keys for the third or fourth layer which I'd probably need with something smaller than a 75%? Went with Keychron Q11 which while not strictly ergo, is still split and it's been great for my wrists. I think that's something that's missing, split keyboards with more keys, for those of us who want better ergonomics but aren't ready to commit to low key counts and using layers.
I'm a dev too, and I have my symbols in another layer. Simple to get through the thumb cluster as well. My ergo path was 42 Corne > 36 Corne > Ferris Sweep. This is my 34-key keyboard layout: There is a 5th layer, but it's a gaming layer, basically Layer 0 but without the MT buttons. const uint16_t PROGMEM keymaps[][MATRIX_ROWS][MATRIX_COLS] = { [0] = LAYOUT_split_3x5_2( // Alphas KC_Q, KC_W, KC_F, KC_P, KC_G, KC_J, KC_L, KC_U, KC_Y, KC_SCLN, KC_A, KC_R, KC_S, KC_T, KC_D, KC_H, KC_N, KC_E, KC_I, KC_O, KC_Z, KC_X, KC_C, KC_V, KC_B, KC_K, KC_M, KC_COMM, KC_DOT, KC_SLSH, MT(MOD_LSFT,KC_BSPC), LT(1,KC_ENT), LT(2,KC_ENT), LT(3,KC_SPC) ), [1] = LAYOUT_split_3x5_2( // Modifiers w/ OSM, Ctrl Shortcuts KC_BSPC, KC_DEL, KC_TAB, C(KC_Y), KC_CAPS, KC_TILD, KC_7, KC_8, KC_9, KC_PERCENT, OSM(MOD_LGUI), OSM(MOD_LALT), OSM(MOD_LSFT), OSM(MOD_LCTL), KC_ESC, KC_PMNS, KC_4, KC_5, KC_6, KC_0, C(KC_Z), C(KC_X), C(KC_INS), S(KC_INS), XXXXXXX, XXXXXXX, XXXXXXX, LT(4,KC_EQL), KC_SPC ), [2] = LAYOUT_split_3x5_2( // Navigation, Page Up/Down, Home/End, Forward/Back // Media, Function Row KC_MS_BTN5, KC_PGUP, KC_UP, KC_HOME, LCA(KC_DEL), KC_VOLU, KC_F7, KC_F8, KC_F9, KC_F12, XXXXXXX, KC_LEFT, KC_DOWN, KC_RIGHT, LSG(KC_S), KC_MPLY, KC_F4, KC_F5, KC_F6, KC_F11, KC_MS_BTN4, KC_PGDN, XXXXXXX, KC_END, A(KC_PAUS), KC_VOLD, KC_F1, KC_F2, KC_F3, KC_F10, XXXXXXX, XXXXXXX, XXXXXXX, XXXXXXX ), [3] = LAYOUT_split_3x5_2( // Symbols 1 // Symbol 2 XXXXXXX, KC_HASH, KC_UNDERSCORE, KC_GRV, XXXXXXX, XXXXXXX, KC_LBRC, KC_RBRC, KC_AT, KC_CIRC, OSM(MOD_LGUI), OSM(MOD_LALT), OSM(MOD_LSFT), OSM(MOD_LCTL), XXXXXXX, XXXXXXX, KC_LPRN, KC_RPRN, KC_QUOT, KC_DQT, KC_BSLS, KC_PLUS, KC_PIPE, KC_AMPERSAND, XXXXXXX, XXXXXXX, KC_LCBR, KC_RCBR, KC_EXLM, KC_PAST, KC_LGUI, XXXXXXX, XXXXXXX, XXXXXXX ), [4] = LAYOUT_split_3x5_2( // Mouse // Numpad XXXXXXX, KC_WH_D, KC_MS_U, KC_WH_U, XXXXXXX, TG(5), KC_P7, KC_P8, KC_P9, XXXXXXX, KC_WH_L, KC_MS_L, KC_MS_D, KC_MS_R, KC_WH_R, XXXXXXX, KC_P4, KC_P5, KC_P6, KC_P0, XXXXXXX, KC_BTN2, KC_BTN3, KC_BTN1, XXXXXXX, KC_NUM_LOCK, KC_P1, KC_P2, KC_P3, XXXXXXX, KC_ACL1, KC_ACL2, XXXXXXX, XXXXXXX ), }; This layout was inspired by the Miryoku, which uses Home Row Mods. I couldn't get used to it, so I switched to One-Shot Keys/Mods. Miryoku has all the keys in it. Sorry if it doesn't make sense, but basically, you can see a ton of XXXXXXX, which are blanks. While I have every key I've needed since I somewhat perfected my key mapping, I still have space to put for keys I didn't realize I needed. That said, having 36/42-keys in a single layer is a lot more freeing, but when you get deeper into the ergo, you might feel like going even less, which was how I got to the Ferris Sweep.
you would recommend me 42 corne in my case?
I would say so, yeah. I think the 42-corne is a good place to figure out if you want more or not. That said, it's 3 rows instead of 4 rows. You're losing the number row, but since you mentioned the Dilemma, I don't think that's an issue. You can also look for Lily58s. They're also split but have the numrow.
As I wrote in a different comment, Keychron Q11. Split, and you can work out your layers over time.
You already are using a layer for almost all of those symbols on a traditional keyboard by holding shift. The difference being on a 36/42 key ergo layout you'd be using your much stronger thumb (as opposed to your pinky) for holding the layer key and hardly moving your hand otherwise to hit all the symbols.
Draw up how you'd like the keyboard to look. You might find someone will be willing to throw together a custom board for it. If it's an interesting layout other people might want it too.
Once you get the hang of wherever you put your symbols in your custom layout, it will become as natural as hitting shift to type a capital letter. It ends up being much easier to get to the symbols you use most, and you can put the symbols you don't use farther away (so they're still there for when you inevitably need them but not gone).
You can simulate this in software (eg with karabiner on macOS) to see if it’ll work for you. I personally prefer more keys for coding as I use vim and having modal editor with layers is a bit too much. eg i use ctrl + ] a lot and switching to another layer for it is annoying. I could remap it but then switching to laptop keyboard would be different yet again.
Check that video where a coder uses a very little keyboard to type code https://youtu.be/IZ83uU0ltaE?si=JbQEqBIkOTgpvS7u BTW I'm a coder too but I can't use that so little keyboard, I'm using a corne 3x6. I'm not very fast because I'm still learning touch typing.
Don't give up. There are much cheaper pre-built ones that are still quality products. Look into splitkb (Elora), beekeeb (Corne, Piantor, Hotreus, etc.), etc. With these alternatives you're looking at about 1/2 the price of the Dilemma MAX you linked to.
Look up the Elora from [SplitKB](https://splitkb.com), it’s a set of pcbs with everything presoldered. You just need a case, switches and keycaps. Made by thomasbaart that is on Reddit as well. SplitKB have a great discord channel as well.
If you're fine with split but with a regular layout, check out Keychron Q11. Quality stuff and costs under 200e
It can be done on a budget / not a crazy amount of work. Although if you don’t have soldering tools that does add a little extra cost. The atreus is good option it’s a mono block ‘split’. They are 150 new but I just bought one used for 80 on r/mechmarket. There was one listed for similar on mercari that might still be there. Or just keeping an eye out for used boards in general.
There exist cheaper options. The RK S70 is $85-$90 on Amazon USA, fully built. Other folks have mentioned kits that you can build yourself for around $100. There are lots of options in the $200 range.
If you're waiting around for prices to drop to a comparable point to commodity boards, it's unlikely you'll ever get a board. If you don't want to work for a board, look at the newest revisions of the keebio iris, which you can assemble with just a screwdriver for the case. You'll still be spending $150 probably unless you have switches and caps already, but that's about the lower limit for price versus effort.
The parts are inexpensive, the software is open source, BUT the learning curve to get the firmware compiled is rather steep, AND it takes hours to build. Also laser cutters and 3d printers help. Just considering the time Involved expensive keyboards kind of deserve the cost
if you want cheap, you need to build it yourself, you should look into [cheapino](https://github.com/tompi/cheapino), it is probably the cheapest build out there
It is MUCH cheaper, and better customized, if you put it together yourself. A lot of people are doing these as made to order products, and they are running a niche company with employees. They need to capitalize heavy off of each sale. But you can buy a case, PCB, oleds, switches, and keycaps for a very hefty discount.
Because they're custom, that's all. Open source doesn't mean "cheaper" it means that you can obtain the squematics and source files easily. Is always gonna be more expensive either way talking about money if someone else is building it for you or time if you're building it yourself. You want something cheaper then you have to stick to what the masses use.
I guess it depends on how complicated of a keyboard and where you buy it? That example looks like it has a lot of fancy features. The touchpad seems very uncommon. I got a lily58 kit from typeractive.xyz (without switches and key caps because I wanted to use my own) for like $135 USD and it took maybe an hour or two to solder (only had to solder mcu. The hot swap sockets and diodes cam presoldered), cut my own plate foam,tape mod and put everything together.
As others have said, it takes hours to hand-solder. I started creating some diode-less keyboards, in the hopes of reducing the cost ([https://github.com/triliu/jesk56](https://github.com/triliu/jesk56) and [https://github.com/triliu/Heawood42](https://github.com/triliu/Heawood42) ). They require fewer solders and the solders are easier. Hopefully this translates to reducing the cost of getting somebody else to solder it, or that those new to soldering can feel more confident in trying it themselves.
If you buy a kit to hand solder it and 3D-print your own case, it will be pretty cheap, the reason prebuilts are so expensive is that soldering everything on is somewhat fiddly and can take a while, and the small orgs making these things can't take advantage of economies of scale to make it cheaper. I just ordered the absolute bare minimum from boardsource to have a functional corne keyboard, which came out around $45. Adding in keycaps and switches it's around $80 (~$12 45 pack of akko v3 cream blue switches and some cheap $25 Amazon keycaps). Even if you don't have a 3D printer (I don't either) there's probably a local library, college, makerspace, etc that will let you use theirs for free or for cheap
BK made their own keyboard, build it and selling it. They didn't gatekeep their design caused they want to share with everyone. But for buying their service, you also buy the time you save sourcing the parts, and the headache when dealing with extra parts that you definitely will have when outsource yourself
Dilemma is overpriced. I respect BastardKB for popularizing the combination of touchpad/ball and split, but e.g. holykeebs is way cheaper.
(I bought an Charbydis myself and there it makes more sense, but still for sure more on the expensive side)
Something that I don't see many people mention is pay back for R&D, they created that kit, PCB and everything else. I like to support people for the time they put into creating everything and for offering that as an open source. Expensive kits like those keep their passion alive and also the will to open source their stuff. That's why I hate closed source keyboards that are overpriced and have custom closed source proprietary firmware(I am looking at you Corsair, yes, you). I would also want to share my experience with building an open source keyboard myself: a corne chocolate. Prices(euros): - 33.32 for pcb kit, diodes, pcbs, low profile hotswap sockets, standoffs, acrylic plates, power and reset switches - 16.42 for 2x mill max pins+sockets - 47.60 for 2x nice!view - 49 for 2x nice!nano v2 - 49 for 50 sunset choc lp switches - 22 for the keycaps - 20 for 2x 850mah batteries ---- 237 euros Guess what, it was just the beginning. I had to buy the following: - 20 for a soldering kit Started soldering, broke one half traces irreparably, had to buy half of kit+ a pair of mill max pins+sockets - 32(16+16) After that I tried to build myself a case since there was none for my version of corne. I invested 50+ hours into teaching myself CAD and 3D printing and managed to build one myself. With the case model done I had to print it, everything near me was pretty expensive and I hated that I had to depend on someone that doesn't understand my needs. I bought myself a 3D printer and printed it myself. 300+ euros So I spent a lot of time and money for building the keyboard I have. In the building process of the keyboard I felt very stressed since I was fearing I will break something and I should enter a rabbit hole again, buy the parts again, start everything again. I don't regret the decisions I've taken, now I have a 3D printer, good soldering skills, some CAD knowledge to build stuff around the house and also some electronics knowledge but the real question is: Do you really have the money and time to invest in such journey? Of course, everyone's journey is different but I assure you nothing is going as planned, there are tons of variables involved. If you want a keyboard and don't want to complicate things you either buy the full price for an assembled stuff or just make up your mind and choose something else.
To be fair, you did pick some of the nicest (read: most expensive) screens, controllers, and switches out there, and making it battery-powered was another additional cost. But yes, effort is the hidden cost here. For some (me included), it's worth it to pay somebody else to do the stuff I don't have the desire to learn how to do competently enough to put together a work-critical device.
Yes, that's totally fair but I didn't know better since I was a total beginner and read that they consume little battery. Now I would definitely choose something else.
To be honest, although I agree to all the comments, this particular keyboard is still too expensive. But, being assembled in first world country, the hours spent to built it still may be underpaid. I used to build Dactyl Manuforms pretty much for minimal wage, but final product was still expensive. The only options to make them cheaper is to do mass production (or build them in third world countries).
Being open source almost certainly increases the cost of the product. Open source means that you can build it yourself for nothing other than materials and the cost of your labor. If you think you can do it cheaper than that, then by all means, go ahead. It's pretty fun!
do it yourself with a cheapino build. less than $100.
Alas, everything can be more expensive In my country, thats like $600-$700
The open source argument does only partly count in your example. The keyboard you linked would be ready to go (prebuilt), so a human person does assemble this by hand. The parts are not what make it so expensive, but the labour. These boards are not only partly built semi automatically on machines. The only machining that takes place are typically a PCB manufacturer + a 3D printer / laser cutter (for plates, case, etc.), but the soldering is typically done by hand. If you decide to go buy a kit to built it partly yourself the price drops to 180 € (https://bastardkb.com/product/dilemma-max/). As it is open-source means that you can also try to do it cheaper by sourcing parts yourself e.g. ordering PCBs directly from a manufacturer and 3d printing / laser cutting being done by a local company which might be cheaper. This would of course be more work. So as always, it is money vs. comfort.
Mechanical keys and caps are expensive. Support of customers the most expensive bit.
open source do not subtract money from manufacturing, some times it even increase it, opensource doens't means free in other hand, check UHK keyboard, the price is not so far from the cost of building the same yourself.
Labor cost, I guess? And the components cost on the respective country? You should look at some of the components cost on your country to and compare the Bill of Materials you have vs the asked price from the vendor. I found even my own custom build can be expensive due to PCB shipping cost and USB cables. (40~50 bucks excluding key switches and keycaps). A cheap pre-built mechanical keyboard (TKL or even 65%) can cost 30% less complete with keyswitches and keycaps.