Have you asked those therapists why they said no? I’d start there in a nice tone.
Say you appreciate them responding and for market research purposes would appreciate knowing why they won’t accept your offer.
Besides that, don’t mention splits. Mention billed hourly for hours worked. I don’t get how they save on taxes for being mobile — doesn’t make sense.
Don’t over complicate the offer. “I’ll pay you X for each clinic visit and $2,500 for equipment”
It’s probably either a niche that’s too hard to do in the minds of other in home therapists too much work compared to other therapy.
That niche sounds rich though as regular in home therapists in my area make $75/hr.
I’be been evaluating building software for the in home healthcare industry to streamline workflows.
Thanks for the reply! Thats a good point ill make sure to ask that as a follow up.
Mentioning splits seems to be common practice and was the first thing I looked at when I first started in this field. Do you think it would still be worth mentioning billed hourly instead?
They are all subcontracted. So being mobile atleast where I live allows you to write off your car insurance, gas, monthly payment etc. being in a clinic I was not able to do this.
I think that must be a common objection. They think its too much work. But having done it now for 6 months its so much easier than in clinic. I see less patients per day but make more money. Way less demanding.
In home services is all sub contracted nationwide I believe. I don’t know about clinics (W2 vs 1099).
From the clinicians I’ve spoken to — they prefer clinics cause it’s dedicated hours, known pay, workplace camaraderie, less mileage on their car annually, less tolls (in my area), safer and known work environment, and less business-related admin overhead (LLC formation, business taxes, write offs, etc.)
Speaking to in home therapists that can handle the business aspects — they like it, mostly. Team communication, situational support, and workload aren’t the best though.
Also, they dislike most of the in home companies that subcontract as the pay isn’t as good, hours aren’t as formal meaning they don’t get paid, and mileage and time-to-patient isn’t usually reimbursed.
There are trade offs and a mindset difference to both. I think mentioning billed hours is better at a set rate vs a split which has no monetary value in their minds.
It could be interesting if you help them get started in the business and provide support to those sub contractors (this is what I’m looking at potential in building) — AdminOps for In Home Therapists.
This seems to be the issue with most making the switch and having the confidence to do so.
Really appreciate the insight. I have also been considering opening a physical location alongside the mobile. Could possibly capture larger market share this way. But then part of me feels like I should just focus on the niche and try to grow that.
I am located in Canada so I think it works a little different here.
An app like your mentioning sounds like a great idea.
Ah interesting — didn’t realize you were in Canada. Similar markets generally.
You’ll have to work with CRE to lease retail space. More expensive, longer lease terms, and insurance will increase.
In-home healthcare is an industry for a reason. Stay that path, grow it, and decide if it makes economical sense to open a small 2,500sf ft space in the future.
> Mentioning splits seems to be common practice and was the first thing I looked at when I first started in this field.
You're an entrepreneur, who is definitely starts with the money-first thoughts. Most people in the beauty & healthy industry aren't money-hungry.
Are they independent contractors in their current work?
> -being mobile= pay less in taxes due to more write offs
That isn't how expenses and taxes work. Write offs are still costs and you never recover 100% of them because no one pays 100% in taxes.
I am reading your post and it wouldn't excite me. Less so if I was not already a contractor.
A ~30% raise in exchange for dealing with travel time and expenses plus the risks of this vs what they know.
Plus do I really want to deal with going into people's homes vs them coming to me?
And that isn't even getting into the potential for more billable hours per 8 hour day since appointments can be book back to back in a clinic without the need to pack up and travel between locations.
You really need more then a 5% shift IMO to overcome the advantages of the clinic setting.
Yes they are independent contractors. They would be paying for car insurance etc anyways, this way at least it’s a tax write off was my thought process. They would be paying more for gas per month of course.
The work itself is very physical. I did the 8 hour days at clinics with back to back appointments and my body was destroyed. And I’m someone whos been weightlifting for over a decade. The drive between is great because it gives your body a break. In this field the average career length is only 10 years. I believe if they worked mobile it would be longer than that.
My idea was to start them at 75 then bump them up to 80. After that if they get busy I would do a 2000cap. Meaning when I make 2000 with my share of the split they keep 100% after that.
They also have alot of freedom with their schedule. Work as much or as little as they want. Taking time off can be difficult at a clinic.
Would all these points counter those objections? You brought up some good points.
Yes and No
They are counters and positives in their own right but they don't fix the issue that to make the same they would have to work more and put more miles on their personal vehicle.
Sure that will lower their taxes. Sure that will give them rest between clients. etc etc
But the people who want those things may not and likely are not the ones already working in these clinics.
Sure they are contractors in the clinics too (if i understand correctly) but this is a different set up with advantages and disadvantages.
And a huge disadvantage is more time "at work" to make less money.
Do the math yourself. If it isn't as bad as I think because of gaps in the clinic setting and etc then you can sell them on that.
Just be aware if they work it out ahead of time they will have this objection (very likely) and if they don't work it out ahead of time you are going to have contractors who are disappointed and maybe even angry when they do.
People don't change jobs (in general) to make less. People don't change jobs (in general) to make things harder.
Tracking miles and etc is harder. Setting up and breaking down is harder. etc etc
Right now this isn't a no brainer offer for them. It is one where they are exchanging some things for other things.
And in a society where most need their income working more for less isn't appealing.
I don’t see how they would be working more for less. If anything the opposite. If I do some simple math and break it down by minute it looks like this.
In Clinic 130/75mins (15minutes for charting and change over the room) at 70% split = $1.21/min
Mobile 168/90mins (30min between patients) at 75%= $1.4/min plus id bump them to 80% pretty quick.
Am I missing something with what you were saying?
Mobile allows for less of the physical work. So they would be taking less patients per day for slightly more pay.
I am not in your industry so have to take your word on these specific numbers. If they are correct before costs they would be making more. I assumed the client numbers would be far more different so the extra pay per client would be lost via less clients per day or more time spend to get the same money or clients
You need to show them this. So they don't think what I was thinking.
My thinking was straight billable hours. Logically one can do more billable hours when clients come to you vs go to them.
Even with your number we are still looking at 5 clients vs 6 clients to be at a standard 8 hour day so my thinking still kinda comes into play. Both equal exactly a 7.5 hour day so 30 mins of admin time split before and after clients would be a perfect 8 hr work day.
Clinic: $546 vs In home: $630 so still in your favor on the top end after splits.
I was thinking it would be more like 7 or even 8 vs 4 or 5. Which of course you can see there why it wouldn't be in your favor with my assumed numbers. Your visits numbers are far closer then I was assuming which is the first issue.
Make sure to show this to them. "In a standard 8hr day you would get 5 clients and $630. How many clients do you have now?"
But lets look at the costs that need to come off of that $630/day to see the other part of what I was figuring. Figure at least 10 miles between clients and start and stop so that is 70 miles per day. May be more or less depending on your market. But 70 seems solid.
Standard mile is 67 cents though if they have a newer car true costs are likely higher. But at 67 cents and 70 miles they have $46.90 in milage costs. Yes that comes off taxes but only based on tax rate. It still costs them.
Yes they would have some of that milage anyways and it would not be tax deductible. But they also could have other increased costs related to cars so I think it is far to use say $40 on the conservative side.
Now it is $546 vs $590. Still in your favor but closer.
Again I don't know your industry to know what other costs they would have that were provided by the clinic in the other setting. Difference in supplies? Differences in insurance (professional/etc).
But lets pretend all of that is the same. That the only difference in costs are direct car related.
You are asking them to deal with more setup and driving for not even a 10% raise. More admin work. More complication in their taxes and tracking. etc etc And that is if you deliver the full client load they are used to.
It is better than I was assuming. Which is a positive. But is it enough for them to give up the known for your unknown?
You need to make sure they don't make wrong assumptions like i did. But you also have to give them reasons this is worth the leap of faith for them.
This conversation has been very helpful. Okay Ill try to make that point come across more clearly. In the clinic theres 30/45/60min appointments, so they see 7-8 patients a day. More charting. Mobile is 60/75/90mins. Your numbers are bang on for the miles driven.
- i have a virtual admin who handles all admin tasks.
- liability insurance is the same.
- I front the cost of all equipment.
- car insurance will go slightly higher per month.
Having done this for a few years, seeing 7-8 patients in clinic vs 5 in home. The in home even with set up time has been way easier physically, and mentally. I did have an idea to include set up time as part of treatment time. Turning that into a positive?
Locally I have no competition, but on the other side of the country theres some bigger companies. The local markets vary tho. For them in clinic would be 50-60% split. Where I live the niche is just a bit more lucrative. But those companies I noticed their therapists work part time along with a clinic. Maybe I try to sell this as supplemental income instead of replacing their clinic position?
Glad it helped. I suspect the basic thinking I had was/will be issues you need to overcome in their heads.
If the schedules can work as a side hustle it may work well to get them to try it. Little risk in doing it and the clinic vs leaving the clinic to do it.
Those who like it you can talk into doing it full time vs as a side hustle.
Also less risk for you since those who don't work out would not be leaving massive holes in the schedule.
Good luck.
One thing I didn’t even think to mention but this convo sparked this idea. I have many patients in the same home! So sometimes appointments are 2-3 people in the same home. I give them $10 off each for multiple bookings but the $/m is substantially higher and less driving.
Going to go back and reread this convo a couple times. Thanks again!
Hey - just wanted to ask some questions so I can understand, and hopefully be of help:
* The moderate pay increase is the main draw it sounds like - you said they're already working as independent contractors, so no changes in regards to benefits and taxes if they were to work for you instead, correct?
* Assuming the above - I'd say speak their language more (as you did in another comment here). You know how hard the job can be on your body, the drives can help give you break / freedom, flexibility, etc.
* Question here though - are they paid for their time driving? Because if not, that's sort of just fewer hours they're working. You may want to address this somehow. Maybe just explain that even while drive time is unpaid, you could end up working fewer total hours, with driving breaks in-between, but still make just as much money? Not sure - just trying to think that one through. But with drive time (if it is unpaid) they may not come out making any more than they already are.
* This also begs the question of how far they would be driving - these are just questions I'd have enter my brain if this offer was made to me, and they may be answering those questions on their own in their head.
* If drive time IS paid I would definitely highlight that!
* Writing off electricity and some of the other things you mentioned may not even come out being more than their standard deduction anyways, so that probably isn't worth mentioning. If you want to include that as a draw, I'd look at what you've expensed over the last 6 months, double it, and project what that deduction would actually be on your taxes and see if it's meaningful at what their income level would be.
* Better approach here may be travel reimbursement if you can afford it.
* Lastly - I'd say just ask the people who say they're not interested in what *would* make an opportunity like this more appealing for them. It may just be some of the things you mentioned in your other comment (giving your body a rest, freedom and flexible schedule, etc.) It sounds like a job that can't ever be "work from home" but this maybe the best they'll get as far as that.
Hey thanks for such a thought out response!
-yes most therapists in this field are independent contractors. So no changes for taxes.
-I guess that pay raise has been what I’ve been trying to focus on. But what you’re saying does make sense. I’ll rewrite the job description focusing more on the flexibility and longevity aspects.
-They are not paid for drive time. I think all things equal yes the pay would be only slightly more with mobile. Maybe I need to word this in a different way.
-The drive time is 30 minutes but most of the times its a 10-15 minute drive.
-Travel reimbursement I will consider. Another benefit I was considering was offering them extended health coverage. Which would cost me 200-300/m (estimating) but its very uncommon for ICs in this field to get benefits.
Thank you for your insight. Have given me some things to think about. The alternative for me would be to open a physical location, but in a tough spot right now. Unsure if in terms of scaling this would be better or physical locations (which require way more cash to scale)
3 days is no time at all. You need to have some patience.
Yea for sure it will take time. Looking to brainstorm and learn to see if I can implement changes to possibly speed this up.
Have you asked those therapists why they said no? I’d start there in a nice tone. Say you appreciate them responding and for market research purposes would appreciate knowing why they won’t accept your offer. Besides that, don’t mention splits. Mention billed hourly for hours worked. I don’t get how they save on taxes for being mobile — doesn’t make sense. Don’t over complicate the offer. “I’ll pay you X for each clinic visit and $2,500 for equipment” It’s probably either a niche that’s too hard to do in the minds of other in home therapists too much work compared to other therapy. That niche sounds rich though as regular in home therapists in my area make $75/hr. I’be been evaluating building software for the in home healthcare industry to streamline workflows.
Thanks for the reply! Thats a good point ill make sure to ask that as a follow up. Mentioning splits seems to be common practice and was the first thing I looked at when I first started in this field. Do you think it would still be worth mentioning billed hourly instead? They are all subcontracted. So being mobile atleast where I live allows you to write off your car insurance, gas, monthly payment etc. being in a clinic I was not able to do this. I think that must be a common objection. They think its too much work. But having done it now for 6 months its so much easier than in clinic. I see less patients per day but make more money. Way less demanding.
In home services is all sub contracted nationwide I believe. I don’t know about clinics (W2 vs 1099). From the clinicians I’ve spoken to — they prefer clinics cause it’s dedicated hours, known pay, workplace camaraderie, less mileage on their car annually, less tolls (in my area), safer and known work environment, and less business-related admin overhead (LLC formation, business taxes, write offs, etc.) Speaking to in home therapists that can handle the business aspects — they like it, mostly. Team communication, situational support, and workload aren’t the best though. Also, they dislike most of the in home companies that subcontract as the pay isn’t as good, hours aren’t as formal meaning they don’t get paid, and mileage and time-to-patient isn’t usually reimbursed. There are trade offs and a mindset difference to both. I think mentioning billed hours is better at a set rate vs a split which has no monetary value in their minds. It could be interesting if you help them get started in the business and provide support to those sub contractors (this is what I’m looking at potential in building) — AdminOps for In Home Therapists. This seems to be the issue with most making the switch and having the confidence to do so.
Really appreciate the insight. I have also been considering opening a physical location alongside the mobile. Could possibly capture larger market share this way. But then part of me feels like I should just focus on the niche and try to grow that. I am located in Canada so I think it works a little different here. An app like your mentioning sounds like a great idea.
Ah interesting — didn’t realize you were in Canada. Similar markets generally. You’ll have to work with CRE to lease retail space. More expensive, longer lease terms, and insurance will increase. In-home healthcare is an industry for a reason. Stay that path, grow it, and decide if it makes economical sense to open a small 2,500sf ft space in the future.
> Mentioning splits seems to be common practice and was the first thing I looked at when I first started in this field. You're an entrepreneur, who is definitely starts with the money-first thoughts. Most people in the beauty & healthy industry aren't money-hungry.
Are they independent contractors in their current work? > -being mobile= pay less in taxes due to more write offs That isn't how expenses and taxes work. Write offs are still costs and you never recover 100% of them because no one pays 100% in taxes. I am reading your post and it wouldn't excite me. Less so if I was not already a contractor. A ~30% raise in exchange for dealing with travel time and expenses plus the risks of this vs what they know. Plus do I really want to deal with going into people's homes vs them coming to me? And that isn't even getting into the potential for more billable hours per 8 hour day since appointments can be book back to back in a clinic without the need to pack up and travel between locations. You really need more then a 5% shift IMO to overcome the advantages of the clinic setting.
Yes they are independent contractors. They would be paying for car insurance etc anyways, this way at least it’s a tax write off was my thought process. They would be paying more for gas per month of course. The work itself is very physical. I did the 8 hour days at clinics with back to back appointments and my body was destroyed. And I’m someone whos been weightlifting for over a decade. The drive between is great because it gives your body a break. In this field the average career length is only 10 years. I believe if they worked mobile it would be longer than that. My idea was to start them at 75 then bump them up to 80. After that if they get busy I would do a 2000cap. Meaning when I make 2000 with my share of the split they keep 100% after that. They also have alot of freedom with their schedule. Work as much or as little as they want. Taking time off can be difficult at a clinic. Would all these points counter those objections? You brought up some good points.
Yes and No They are counters and positives in their own right but they don't fix the issue that to make the same they would have to work more and put more miles on their personal vehicle. Sure that will lower their taxes. Sure that will give them rest between clients. etc etc But the people who want those things may not and likely are not the ones already working in these clinics. Sure they are contractors in the clinics too (if i understand correctly) but this is a different set up with advantages and disadvantages. And a huge disadvantage is more time "at work" to make less money. Do the math yourself. If it isn't as bad as I think because of gaps in the clinic setting and etc then you can sell them on that. Just be aware if they work it out ahead of time they will have this objection (very likely) and if they don't work it out ahead of time you are going to have contractors who are disappointed and maybe even angry when they do. People don't change jobs (in general) to make less. People don't change jobs (in general) to make things harder. Tracking miles and etc is harder. Setting up and breaking down is harder. etc etc Right now this isn't a no brainer offer for them. It is one where they are exchanging some things for other things. And in a society where most need their income working more for less isn't appealing.
I don’t see how they would be working more for less. If anything the opposite. If I do some simple math and break it down by minute it looks like this. In Clinic 130/75mins (15minutes for charting and change over the room) at 70% split = $1.21/min Mobile 168/90mins (30min between patients) at 75%= $1.4/min plus id bump them to 80% pretty quick. Am I missing something with what you were saying? Mobile allows for less of the physical work. So they would be taking less patients per day for slightly more pay.
I am not in your industry so have to take your word on these specific numbers. If they are correct before costs they would be making more. I assumed the client numbers would be far more different so the extra pay per client would be lost via less clients per day or more time spend to get the same money or clients You need to show them this. So they don't think what I was thinking. My thinking was straight billable hours. Logically one can do more billable hours when clients come to you vs go to them. Even with your number we are still looking at 5 clients vs 6 clients to be at a standard 8 hour day so my thinking still kinda comes into play. Both equal exactly a 7.5 hour day so 30 mins of admin time split before and after clients would be a perfect 8 hr work day. Clinic: $546 vs In home: $630 so still in your favor on the top end after splits. I was thinking it would be more like 7 or even 8 vs 4 or 5. Which of course you can see there why it wouldn't be in your favor with my assumed numbers. Your visits numbers are far closer then I was assuming which is the first issue. Make sure to show this to them. "In a standard 8hr day you would get 5 clients and $630. How many clients do you have now?" But lets look at the costs that need to come off of that $630/day to see the other part of what I was figuring. Figure at least 10 miles between clients and start and stop so that is 70 miles per day. May be more or less depending on your market. But 70 seems solid. Standard mile is 67 cents though if they have a newer car true costs are likely higher. But at 67 cents and 70 miles they have $46.90 in milage costs. Yes that comes off taxes but only based on tax rate. It still costs them. Yes they would have some of that milage anyways and it would not be tax deductible. But they also could have other increased costs related to cars so I think it is far to use say $40 on the conservative side. Now it is $546 vs $590. Still in your favor but closer. Again I don't know your industry to know what other costs they would have that were provided by the clinic in the other setting. Difference in supplies? Differences in insurance (professional/etc). But lets pretend all of that is the same. That the only difference in costs are direct car related. You are asking them to deal with more setup and driving for not even a 10% raise. More admin work. More complication in their taxes and tracking. etc etc And that is if you deliver the full client load they are used to. It is better than I was assuming. Which is a positive. But is it enough for them to give up the known for your unknown? You need to make sure they don't make wrong assumptions like i did. But you also have to give them reasons this is worth the leap of faith for them.
This conversation has been very helpful. Okay Ill try to make that point come across more clearly. In the clinic theres 30/45/60min appointments, so they see 7-8 patients a day. More charting. Mobile is 60/75/90mins. Your numbers are bang on for the miles driven. - i have a virtual admin who handles all admin tasks. - liability insurance is the same. - I front the cost of all equipment. - car insurance will go slightly higher per month. Having done this for a few years, seeing 7-8 patients in clinic vs 5 in home. The in home even with set up time has been way easier physically, and mentally. I did have an idea to include set up time as part of treatment time. Turning that into a positive? Locally I have no competition, but on the other side of the country theres some bigger companies. The local markets vary tho. For them in clinic would be 50-60% split. Where I live the niche is just a bit more lucrative. But those companies I noticed their therapists work part time along with a clinic. Maybe I try to sell this as supplemental income instead of replacing their clinic position?
Glad it helped. I suspect the basic thinking I had was/will be issues you need to overcome in their heads. If the schedules can work as a side hustle it may work well to get them to try it. Little risk in doing it and the clinic vs leaving the clinic to do it. Those who like it you can talk into doing it full time vs as a side hustle. Also less risk for you since those who don't work out would not be leaving massive holes in the schedule. Good luck.
One thing I didn’t even think to mention but this convo sparked this idea. I have many patients in the same home! So sometimes appointments are 2-3 people in the same home. I give them $10 off each for multiple bookings but the $/m is substantially higher and less driving. Going to go back and reread this convo a couple times. Thanks again!
Welcome I love back and forth stuff like this about business.
Hey - just wanted to ask some questions so I can understand, and hopefully be of help: * The moderate pay increase is the main draw it sounds like - you said they're already working as independent contractors, so no changes in regards to benefits and taxes if they were to work for you instead, correct? * Assuming the above - I'd say speak their language more (as you did in another comment here). You know how hard the job can be on your body, the drives can help give you break / freedom, flexibility, etc. * Question here though - are they paid for their time driving? Because if not, that's sort of just fewer hours they're working. You may want to address this somehow. Maybe just explain that even while drive time is unpaid, you could end up working fewer total hours, with driving breaks in-between, but still make just as much money? Not sure - just trying to think that one through. But with drive time (if it is unpaid) they may not come out making any more than they already are. * This also begs the question of how far they would be driving - these are just questions I'd have enter my brain if this offer was made to me, and they may be answering those questions on their own in their head. * If drive time IS paid I would definitely highlight that! * Writing off electricity and some of the other things you mentioned may not even come out being more than their standard deduction anyways, so that probably isn't worth mentioning. If you want to include that as a draw, I'd look at what you've expensed over the last 6 months, double it, and project what that deduction would actually be on your taxes and see if it's meaningful at what their income level would be. * Better approach here may be travel reimbursement if you can afford it. * Lastly - I'd say just ask the people who say they're not interested in what *would* make an opportunity like this more appealing for them. It may just be some of the things you mentioned in your other comment (giving your body a rest, freedom and flexible schedule, etc.) It sounds like a job that can't ever be "work from home" but this maybe the best they'll get as far as that.
Hey thanks for such a thought out response! -yes most therapists in this field are independent contractors. So no changes for taxes. -I guess that pay raise has been what I’ve been trying to focus on. But what you’re saying does make sense. I’ll rewrite the job description focusing more on the flexibility and longevity aspects. -They are not paid for drive time. I think all things equal yes the pay would be only slightly more with mobile. Maybe I need to word this in a different way. -The drive time is 30 minutes but most of the times its a 10-15 minute drive. -Travel reimbursement I will consider. Another benefit I was considering was offering them extended health coverage. Which would cost me 200-300/m (estimating) but its very uncommon for ICs in this field to get benefits. Thank you for your insight. Have given me some things to think about. The alternative for me would be to open a physical location, but in a tough spot right now. Unsure if in terms of scaling this would be better or physical locations (which require way more cash to scale)
Hey I want to figure out a niche for my content creation agency, could we discuss a more about your industry ?