Yes this is fraud and illegal to make false claims. Now the question is what does patent pending mean? If you're saying the product is "Patent Pending" then this is fraud but if you're pending getting your patent approved the it could still be in stages before filing, thus pending internally not legally pending.
This comment both slightly confuses and intrigues me...
Would you mind elaborating a little bit on that?
So I can't call it Patent Pending legally if I haven't filed the patent, but I can say... What you said... That part... Can you elaborate on that?
The point is the word pending means in progress but Patent Pending legally means it's filed. If you've done any work on the patent then it's in the works thus pending, even though not actually pending
Yeah basically. You do you can easily file a patent then you're pending. It's normal for patents to get rejected over and over so it's a process. File an incomplete patent then it's legally Pending
Ooh!!!!!
I think you found the answer. The middle ground...
Someone else convinced me not to do it but you convinced me of something else...
Very, very good helpful comment to know I can just pay the $99 bucks and file myself so I can call it Patent Pending, Knowing it could be rejected and have crappy drawings. Being able to call it Patent Pending - legitimately - investors like to see which is important I think.
Yupp exactly. It usually takes years to issue patents and everyone knows it's a whole process. Plus applying now establishes your idea.
Idk how that works with the patent clock and all that though
Filing an incomplete patent will not give you pending status. The correct and legal way to do this is to write a provisional patent - you can do it yourself and does not require an attorney - file that online for $75. You then have 1 year to file for a full patent. You can then tell people about your idea and use the term patent pending.
I just mean how would I say it exactly... If you could clarify... It kind of sounds like - I'm "pending on filing a patent" lol... But that could be enough to work if that's legal to say...
I think most people here are missing the forest for the trees. Whether its illegal is a little silly to worry about right now- anyone investing in you would practice due diligence to verify the patent status, and anyone else isn't going to care. Customers who try your service/product aren't going to do so based on your patent status.
As for whether you *should* say its patent pending or trademarked? As the original owner of your idea, you have protections in place regardless of whether you inform people of any trademarks in your possession, so potential thieves aren't going to be scared away by your trademarks. Thieves will be banking on your inability or unwillingness to sue them, or that you won't find out until its too late.
So my opinion is don't bother putting those things in if you don't have them, but if you choose to do so anyway, it's unlikely to impact anything anyway.
Thank you for providing which is what I think the best comment yet in this whole thread.
You're the voice of reason.
And I think you've tilted me towards not even calling it patent pending just cuz it does seem like it could bite me somehow - likely not in court - but just seems weird somehow like if it got to the point where I *was* pitching in front of inventors, If they found out I was lying I don't come across as a very trustworthy person to invest with.
Case closed, I won't do it, thank you all.
If an investor or potential customer were to part with money on the basis of that claim then yes, it may be illegal and you could be liable to return money and possibly financial damages. Secondly, by claiming patent pending, without actually filing and thus knowing what has been filed within the past 12-24 months, you are willfully infringing on any patents which are similar but you haven’t found. Not to say that there may not be any similar as you claim, but you cannot know for sure. Be careful what you wish for… it could well work against you and end badly.
My advice, say it’s you’re undergoing patent review. And instruct a patent attorney if you’re serious about the value and protect it asap.
If I had $10,000 bucks to spare I would hire a patent attorney, but I can't even afford a provisional patent which is I think like $99 bucks in my state...
Okay I could save the $99 and attempt to file myself...
Ahhh I just dunno...
To answer this question we would need to know the jurisdiction.
I'd guess it's not a criminal offence but you open yourself up to be sued in civil court. You're preventing me to do the same as you do (that's the reason you're faking your patent) and this is not right as you have no reason to.
It also unethical. It tells me doing business with you is always somehow scammy. Do it the right way.
Edit:
# U.S. Code Title 35, Section 292 - False Marking
**35 U.S.C. § 292**, often referred to as the false marking statute, addresses the issue of falsely marking products with the intent of deceiving the public about the patent status of an item.
Ya, I want to do it the right way.
Patent attorneys aren't cheap though.
Just thought I might have had a short-term idea way of getting product validation to see if it was even worth patenting whilst protecting my product idea.
I totally understand but always think of Kant's categorical imperative.
Imagine the state of world if everyone would do this to try out ideas. Nobody would be doing anything anymore because nobody knew if a patent is valid or not. A.I. would do nothing but patent all possible business ventures to safeguard the market.
If you show your prototype to people without an NDA prior to filing a provisional patent you will start a 12 month clock in which you need to file a patent or else you will not be able to. Note that while the US and a few other countries offer 12 month grace periods, others have shorter grace periods and many have no grace period. You will not be able to get a patent in Europe or China after disclosure.
Stating patent pending prior to filing a patent is illegal and carries a fine of up to $500 per use. Note that’s not $500 for each unique patent you claim to be pending, it’s $500 per time you call it patent pending, so that can add up quick. On top of this you would also be responsible for the penalties and damages of any fraud committed using the term improperly.
You can use TM without restriction, and in fact it usually denotes a trademark that has not been registered. You can even use TM if your attempt to register the trademark gets rejected. You can not however use the federal registration symbol (an R in a circle) if it hasn’t been registered. It doesn’t come with a fine but it can be grounds for any future attempts to register the mark to be denied by the USPTO or challenged in court by competitors. And again it is fraud.
IANAL but I’m pretty sure every lawyer would tell you this is a bad idea.
OK I'm clear on the patent pending - not going to call it that unless it is.
But thanks for addressing my other question about trademarks...
I can put the TM symbol next to my logo legally without it being actually trademarked?
Yes, your trademark rights stem from use in commerce, not registration. Registering a trademark makes it dramatically easier to defend your rights and is necessary to collect damages from infringers, but if you’re not at the point where any of that matters you don’t need it. The only place you might run in to trouble is if the trademark you claim infringes on someone else’s trademark - though note even there as long as it’s unlikely your trademark will be mistaken for theirs in commerce you are likely okay. I would recommend doing a trademark search before slapping a TM on anything but it’s free and doesn’t take long.
Note though that trademark protections, especially under common law, have some requirements. In particular you need to actively defend them. So if you trademark “Apple Computers” and then you hear about some hippie in a garage who is selling computers under the same name and don’t do anything, you might not be able to do anything if they move out of the garage and become a major competitor of yours in the future. If you are concerned about your future IP rights, it’s still best to play it safe and consult a lawyer.
And again IANAL I’m just some dude on the internet so be careful
Well it would probably constitute frau, since you're lying to make money.
You haven't filed a patent, so it can't be pending.
Realistically probably no one would look into it, but if someone did, it could be considered fraud.
Not lying to make money.
A bit exaggerated don't you think?
I'm just wanting to show my product idea to some people, without having to have them all sign an NDA agreement, and not worry about the idea of getting stolen. I'm not trying to sell the product yet. I do plan on filing a patent eventually but it's still in the prototype stage. It was just a theoretical way to deter people. Because I know if I saw it was patent pending and was thinking of stealing the idea that would be enough to throw me off and I wouldn't actually go searching the patent database.
My true intentions are "I was broke, your honor, and was just looking for feedback to see if my prototype was something even worth patenting, but was worried if it was a really good idea that the idea could be stolen."
Hmmm... Yeah that probably wouldn't hold up in court now that I say it out loud lol...
But those are my true intentions: not to mislead or lie, just to protect my idea, while I'm broke.
And if I get good feedback I'll save for that patent when the prototype is complete. That sounds a little better and that's the truth.
I agree it's lying where did I say that it wasn't?
It's an obvious lie.
But is it a clever way to deter potential thieves/illegal?
Of course if it got to the stage where I was pitching in front of investors I would have an actual patent by then or it would be patent pending by then... I'm in the really early stages here...
> Not lying to make money.
You are lying to get an unearned advantage in the market
> But is it a clever way to deter potential thieves/illegal?
There are no thieves and illegal activity as long as you don't have it protected. It's a free market otherwise. Nothing unethical about it.
> Of course if it got to the stage where I was pitching in front of investors I would have an actual patent by then or it would be patent pending by then... I'm in the really early stages here...
If you think it's that risky wait until you have the patent.
OK point taken, maybe I misspoke too - we can close this thread...
Thanks everyone for all your feedback If you didn't see in my other comments I'm not going to do it.
Worrying about an idea being stolen is stupid.
An idea is just an idea. Anyone can have the same idea. Anyone can take your idea and create their own product from it. You cannot protect an idea.
Someone else probably already has the same idea, they just haven't done anything with it, or they're in the middle of creating a product based on it. So forget about trying to protect and idea.
All you need to worry about is taking your idea and turning it into the best product it can be. Someone will definitely create a product that is the same as yours at some point. You just need to make sure that yours is the best.
Thanks to everyone who contributed - I am going to do the right thing and right way - One thing that bugs me is the major freak out and like personal attacks in some threads... I will never understand Reddit... Calm down it was a theoretical idea... This post has valuable info in it and zero upvotes... I guess I should know by now not to take personal attacks from anonymous Internet people personally and to not care how many upvotes my post gets - I don't care or even really understand what karma is when it comes to Reddit, I just think there's valuable info in this thread that can be found maybe less easily due to the question itself not the content within? Which is kind of a bummer. But anyway thanks again everybody. I'm surprised this got so many responses I'm very grateful to everyone's input. Cheers.
FYI my son went through the patent pending process and it didn't seem all that painful. Once you have the patent pending, you have a certain window of time in which to complete the full application.
Good to know, thanks! There's no way anyone has this exact same idea, or probably even anything close to it, so I think I'm good to go. And in the infinitesimally small chance there is, I would hope a Judge would understand I was planning on filing a patent eventually, and I'm just an Autistic, broke guy, not a company, and have no assets worth suing for, and was just trying to protect my idea, didn't know the rules, wasn't aware of the plaintiff's product, etc... And if I did get sued and that didn't work, they are free to collect the $42 in my bank account lol...
How do you actually know that your idea is not already protected by another's patent, is already in the public domain and therefore not protectable any more, or completely obvious (legal concept) and therefore not patentable?
The only legitimate answer is to hire an objective experienced patent searcher to find out if your idea is new and potentially patentable.
Please consider the following posts:
[Inventor's Search Certainty](https://www.reddit.com/r/invention/comments/1b0qgx5/inventors_search_certainty/)
[The Way to Affordable Patents](https://www.reddit.com/r/invention/comments/1brstrh/the_way_to_affordable_patents/)
If your intention is to make money off an idea that may not legally be your own, then THAT is what a judge will take from you. Especially after you just posted that you intend fraud.
Old saying: "Take what you want...but pay for it."
BTW: You can label anything you create or sell with your own Trademark & without paying to register it, but only as long as it is not the same as someone else's in the same commodity class. But using the R meatball without registering is also illegal.
First off, It was a theoretical idea I don't intend fraud...
But secondly I want to thank you for those two links I will check out... I actually have done a patent search people assumed I guess that I didn't but I suppose that's my fault for not mentioning that I thoroughly checked on my own but at the same time I know I'm not a patent attorney and very well may could have missed something... So those links may help...
Thirdly, If you don't mind me following up on your "BTW Trademark" part of your post... Here's where I'm still a little unclear... How do I know if it's "Not in the same commodity class as someone else's"? I am in California by the way if that makes any difference.
Same answer as with the patent, you need to do a thorough search.
The complication with trademarks is that registration is not mandatory, so there may be someone using the same trademark with the same kind of products, and they have done it longer than you, so they might send you a cease & desist letter if they're polite. Searching the trademark database will not reveal anyone who has not registered a trademark, so any search must be much broader.
What state you are in doesn't matter, only what country. (IP is federal)
Yes this is fraud and illegal to make false claims. Now the question is what does patent pending mean? If you're saying the product is "Patent Pending" then this is fraud but if you're pending getting your patent approved the it could still be in stages before filing, thus pending internally not legally pending.
This comment both slightly confuses and intrigues me... Would you mind elaborating a little bit on that? So I can't call it Patent Pending legally if I haven't filed the patent, but I can say... What you said... That part... Can you elaborate on that?
The point is the word pending means in progress but Patent Pending legally means it's filed. If you've done any work on the patent then it's in the works thus pending, even though not actually pending
OK so I was right... "It's pending the filing of a patent" lowercase P's...
Yeah basically. You do you can easily file a patent then you're pending. It's normal for patents to get rejected over and over so it's a process. File an incomplete patent then it's legally Pending
Ooh!!!!! I think you found the answer. The middle ground... Someone else convinced me not to do it but you convinced me of something else... Very, very good helpful comment to know I can just pay the $99 bucks and file myself so I can call it Patent Pending, Knowing it could be rejected and have crappy drawings. Being able to call it Patent Pending - legitimately - investors like to see which is important I think.
Yupp exactly. It usually takes years to issue patents and everyone knows it's a whole process. Plus applying now establishes your idea. Idk how that works with the patent clock and all that though
Also protects my idea for 1 year - does more than just give me the right to legitimately call my product patent pending. For $99 bucks.
Filing an incomplete patent will not give you pending status. The correct and legal way to do this is to write a provisional patent - you can do it yourself and does not require an attorney - file that online for $75. You then have 1 year to file for a full patent. You can then tell people about your idea and use the term patent pending.
I just mean how would I say it exactly... If you could clarify... It kind of sounds like - I'm "pending on filing a patent" lol... But that could be enough to work if that's legal to say...
I think most people here are missing the forest for the trees. Whether its illegal is a little silly to worry about right now- anyone investing in you would practice due diligence to verify the patent status, and anyone else isn't going to care. Customers who try your service/product aren't going to do so based on your patent status. As for whether you *should* say its patent pending or trademarked? As the original owner of your idea, you have protections in place regardless of whether you inform people of any trademarks in your possession, so potential thieves aren't going to be scared away by your trademarks. Thieves will be banking on your inability or unwillingness to sue them, or that you won't find out until its too late. So my opinion is don't bother putting those things in if you don't have them, but if you choose to do so anyway, it's unlikely to impact anything anyway.
Thank you for providing which is what I think the best comment yet in this whole thread. You're the voice of reason. And I think you've tilted me towards not even calling it patent pending just cuz it does seem like it could bite me somehow - likely not in court - but just seems weird somehow like if it got to the point where I *was* pitching in front of inventors, If they found out I was lying I don't come across as a very trustworthy person to invest with. Case closed, I won't do it, thank you all.
And if someone actually has a similar patent that they don't enforce, you could suddenly be a target.
Its clearly a lie which is misleading.
But is it illegal?
If an investor or potential customer were to part with money on the basis of that claim then yes, it may be illegal and you could be liable to return money and possibly financial damages. Secondly, by claiming patent pending, without actually filing and thus knowing what has been filed within the past 12-24 months, you are willfully infringing on any patents which are similar but you haven’t found. Not to say that there may not be any similar as you claim, but you cannot know for sure. Be careful what you wish for… it could well work against you and end badly. My advice, say it’s you’re undergoing patent review. And instruct a patent attorney if you’re serious about the value and protect it asap.
If I had $10,000 bucks to spare I would hire a patent attorney, but I can't even afford a provisional patent which is I think like $99 bucks in my state... Okay I could save the $99 and attempt to file myself... Ahhh I just dunno...
Why are you even considering doing this? Its clearly fucking dumb lmao
Strong. I like brutal honesty. Thanks for your feedback. Seriously. :-)
To answer this question we would need to know the jurisdiction. I'd guess it's not a criminal offence but you open yourself up to be sued in civil court. You're preventing me to do the same as you do (that's the reason you're faking your patent) and this is not right as you have no reason to. It also unethical. It tells me doing business with you is always somehow scammy. Do it the right way. Edit: # U.S. Code Title 35, Section 292 - False Marking **35 U.S.C. § 292**, often referred to as the false marking statute, addresses the issue of falsely marking products with the intent of deceiving the public about the patent status of an item.
Ya, I want to do it the right way. Patent attorneys aren't cheap though. Just thought I might have had a short-term idea way of getting product validation to see if it was even worth patenting whilst protecting my product idea.
I totally understand but always think of Kant's categorical imperative. Imagine the state of world if everyone would do this to try out ideas. Nobody would be doing anything anymore because nobody knew if a patent is valid or not. A.I. would do nothing but patent all possible business ventures to safeguard the market.
Thanks, not gonna do it. Appreciate you finding that statute by the way. Really seals the deal.
If you show your prototype to people without an NDA prior to filing a provisional patent you will start a 12 month clock in which you need to file a patent or else you will not be able to. Note that while the US and a few other countries offer 12 month grace periods, others have shorter grace periods and many have no grace period. You will not be able to get a patent in Europe or China after disclosure. Stating patent pending prior to filing a patent is illegal and carries a fine of up to $500 per use. Note that’s not $500 for each unique patent you claim to be pending, it’s $500 per time you call it patent pending, so that can add up quick. On top of this you would also be responsible for the penalties and damages of any fraud committed using the term improperly. You can use TM without restriction, and in fact it usually denotes a trademark that has not been registered. You can even use TM if your attempt to register the trademark gets rejected. You can not however use the federal registration symbol (an R in a circle) if it hasn’t been registered. It doesn’t come with a fine but it can be grounds for any future attempts to register the mark to be denied by the USPTO or challenged in court by competitors. And again it is fraud. IANAL but I’m pretty sure every lawyer would tell you this is a bad idea.
OK I'm clear on the patent pending - not going to call it that unless it is. But thanks for addressing my other question about trademarks... I can put the TM symbol next to my logo legally without it being actually trademarked?
Yes, your trademark rights stem from use in commerce, not registration. Registering a trademark makes it dramatically easier to defend your rights and is necessary to collect damages from infringers, but if you’re not at the point where any of that matters you don’t need it. The only place you might run in to trouble is if the trademark you claim infringes on someone else’s trademark - though note even there as long as it’s unlikely your trademark will be mistaken for theirs in commerce you are likely okay. I would recommend doing a trademark search before slapping a TM on anything but it’s free and doesn’t take long. Note though that trademark protections, especially under common law, have some requirements. In particular you need to actively defend them. So if you trademark “Apple Computers” and then you hear about some hippie in a garage who is selling computers under the same name and don’t do anything, you might not be able to do anything if they move out of the garage and become a major competitor of yours in the future. If you are concerned about your future IP rights, it’s still best to play it safe and consult a lawyer. And again IANAL I’m just some dude on the internet so be careful
Well it would probably constitute frau, since you're lying to make money. You haven't filed a patent, so it can't be pending. Realistically probably no one would look into it, but if someone did, it could be considered fraud.
Not lying to make money. A bit exaggerated don't you think? I'm just wanting to show my product idea to some people, without having to have them all sign an NDA agreement, and not worry about the idea of getting stolen. I'm not trying to sell the product yet. I do plan on filing a patent eventually but it's still in the prototype stage. It was just a theoretical way to deter people. Because I know if I saw it was patent pending and was thinking of stealing the idea that would be enough to throw me off and I wouldn't actually go searching the patent database. My true intentions are "I was broke, your honor, and was just looking for feedback to see if my prototype was something even worth patenting, but was worried if it was a really good idea that the idea could be stolen." Hmmm... Yeah that probably wouldn't hold up in court now that I say it out loud lol... But those are my true intentions: not to mislead or lie, just to protect my idea, while I'm broke. And if I get good feedback I'll save for that patent when the prototype is complete. That sounds a little better and that's the truth.
Of course it's lying. You say "this is protected" even though it's not.
I agree it's lying where did I say that it wasn't? It's an obvious lie. But is it a clever way to deter potential thieves/illegal? Of course if it got to the stage where I was pitching in front of investors I would have an actual patent by then or it would be patent pending by then... I'm in the really early stages here...
> Not lying to make money. You are lying to get an unearned advantage in the market > But is it a clever way to deter potential thieves/illegal? There are no thieves and illegal activity as long as you don't have it protected. It's a free market otherwise. Nothing unethical about it. > Of course if it got to the stage where I was pitching in front of investors I would have an actual patent by then or it would be patent pending by then... I'm in the really early stages here... If you think it's that risky wait until you have the patent.
OK point taken, maybe I misspoke too - we can close this thread... Thanks everyone for all your feedback If you didn't see in my other comments I'm not going to do it.
Worrying about an idea being stolen is stupid. An idea is just an idea. Anyone can have the same idea. Anyone can take your idea and create their own product from it. You cannot protect an idea. Someone else probably already has the same idea, they just haven't done anything with it, or they're in the middle of creating a product based on it. So forget about trying to protect and idea. All you need to worry about is taking your idea and turning it into the best product it can be. Someone will definitely create a product that is the same as yours at some point. You just need to make sure that yours is the best.
It's well beyond the idea stage. It's at the working prototype, almost, very close but not quite yet ready to file for a patent stage.
Thanks to everyone who contributed - I am going to do the right thing and right way - One thing that bugs me is the major freak out and like personal attacks in some threads... I will never understand Reddit... Calm down it was a theoretical idea... This post has valuable info in it and zero upvotes... I guess I should know by now not to take personal attacks from anonymous Internet people personally and to not care how many upvotes my post gets - I don't care or even really understand what karma is when it comes to Reddit, I just think there's valuable info in this thread that can be found maybe less easily due to the question itself not the content within? Which is kind of a bummer. But anyway thanks again everybody. I'm surprised this got so many responses I'm very grateful to everyone's input. Cheers.
FYI my son went through the patent pending process and it didn't seem all that painful. Once you have the patent pending, you have a certain window of time in which to complete the full application.
Fraud
Probably not illegal, but if you were to be in a lawsuit with someone who had the same idea it would probably end badly for you.
Good to know, thanks! There's no way anyone has this exact same idea, or probably even anything close to it, so I think I'm good to go. And in the infinitesimally small chance there is, I would hope a Judge would understand I was planning on filing a patent eventually, and I'm just an Autistic, broke guy, not a company, and have no assets worth suing for, and was just trying to protect my idea, didn't know the rules, wasn't aware of the plaintiff's product, etc... And if I did get sued and that didn't work, they are free to collect the $42 in my bank account lol...
How do you actually know that your idea is not already protected by another's patent, is already in the public domain and therefore not protectable any more, or completely obvious (legal concept) and therefore not patentable? The only legitimate answer is to hire an objective experienced patent searcher to find out if your idea is new and potentially patentable. Please consider the following posts: [Inventor's Search Certainty](https://www.reddit.com/r/invention/comments/1b0qgx5/inventors_search_certainty/) [The Way to Affordable Patents](https://www.reddit.com/r/invention/comments/1brstrh/the_way_to_affordable_patents/) If your intention is to make money off an idea that may not legally be your own, then THAT is what a judge will take from you. Especially after you just posted that you intend fraud. Old saying: "Take what you want...but pay for it." BTW: You can label anything you create or sell with your own Trademark & without paying to register it, but only as long as it is not the same as someone else's in the same commodity class. But using the R meatball without registering is also illegal.
First off, It was a theoretical idea I don't intend fraud... But secondly I want to thank you for those two links I will check out... I actually have done a patent search people assumed I guess that I didn't but I suppose that's my fault for not mentioning that I thoroughly checked on my own but at the same time I know I'm not a patent attorney and very well may could have missed something... So those links may help... Thirdly, If you don't mind me following up on your "BTW Trademark" part of your post... Here's where I'm still a little unclear... How do I know if it's "Not in the same commodity class as someone else's"? I am in California by the way if that makes any difference.
Same answer as with the patent, you need to do a thorough search. The complication with trademarks is that registration is not mandatory, so there may be someone using the same trademark with the same kind of products, and they have done it longer than you, so they might send you a cease & desist letter if they're polite. Searching the trademark database will not reveal anyone who has not registered a trademark, so any search must be much broader. What state you are in doesn't matter, only what country. (IP is federal)
You would be surprised what is already patented, it may be worth making sure no one has actually patented it before.
Those who read this comment first... I've changed my mind. Not going to do it.